Author Topic: Lazarus  (Read 1565 times)

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Offline Corinth777

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Lazarus
« on: Sun Feb 15, 2015 - 19:02:02 »
I have been a pastor for 22 years and have been led to do a message entitled "How do you kill a dead man" referring to John 12:10.
A question came to my mind as Paul stated in Corinthians "To be absent from the body is to be present with Christ." and I accept this. However I am a little confused how could this be possible with Lazarus who had been dead for 4 days so where really was he at the time of death? Just open for discussion.

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Lazarus
« on: Sun Feb 15, 2015 - 19:02:02 »

Offline AlephBet

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #1 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 01:39:33 »
First, a warning:  The last thing you can do is preach the truth of this mystery.  If you do, you will go against a lower axiom of truth.  Paradox below is resolved by knowing the higher axiom.  If the mind is not prepared, it will reject this out of fear.  Your mind is prepared.  The congregations judgment will end your career.  Know this before you read. 

The answer is entanglement.  We are never away from center.  We have literally never moved, but sleep.  When Adam was placed in the state of inconscience, the rib was taken.  Eve was formed.  This is all symbolism for who Eve is as the weak nature of Adam.  She is humanity in the waters below.  When do we next encounter Eve?  In the body of Mary.  Who was placed in Mary's womb?  The last Adam.  Who was Eve formed from?  The first Adam.  He is both Aleph and Tav, beginning and end.  To see this clearly, you need to know that there are waters above and below.  Above the water, the Ark.  Below, baptism.  I'll explain this later. 

Matthew 18

10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

Who is the Child of God being refined and raised to new life from the waters below?  Eve.  Humanity.  All of us.  Who is the Angel facing the Father?  The groom to the bride.  Was Adam married to Eve?  Yes.  Was Adam BOTH male and female, in God's image?  Yes.  Read from the NOG (Names of God) Bible.   Elohim is the Father.  Ruach Elohim is over the waters.  Ruach is Feminine.  Is God ONE?  Yes.  BOTH.  Was Adam in God's image?  YES.  Both.  Why else would Eve be taken out of his rib?  The Lamb was slain from the foundation.  He was made sin for us. 

Matthew 22:30

29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Did Eve die?  Yes.  Who is Eve living above?  The Angel facing God.  Baptism is the immersion of the Spirit into the waters below.  From this involution, we have evolution (rising to new life).

E in Latin means 'out of'.  Volution means revolving around a center.  Who do you suppose the center is, where the Angels face?

We have never moved.  God's image is a copy of the real.

Hebrews 9

23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

If you hold a picture of yourself in your hand, do you know the image is not you? 

Genesis 1

So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.

Stated twice.  1) INSIDE the image he created (Son).  2) THE image of God Himself. 

[link removed ]We are the slices of the LOAF.  See my first thread in this same forum topic.
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 10:51:07 by Nevertheless »

Offline AlephBet

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #2 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 01:48:23 »
I said I would explain the Ark and Water.  I need to break the verses up slightly with commentary.

1 Peter 3

19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

---The Ark is the ship we sail in the water.  Jesus said to be fishers of men.  Do we fish for our catch in the boat or water?  Yes.  The ark saved 8.  The water NOW saves you.  Baptism is the water that represents the immersion into the waters below (material world).  Our Spirit is possessing the Host.  The Lord of Hosts is our guardian. 

In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.

---Again, the Ark saves 8.  The water saves the rest.  How many Angels are there for the Seven Churches?  8.  Christ is the head of the Church. 

 It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Matthew 22:30

AGAIN.  Who are we really?

29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

If you don't have chills Lazarus, you are dead.  Let me know if you would like to dive deeper into the mystery.  I have more.

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #3 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 05:02:54 »
Quote
Let me know if you would like to dive deeper into the mystery.  I have more.

You have not as of yet said the first word that made any biblical sense. 

Offline DaveW

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #4 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 05:37:29 »
Quote
Let me know if you would like to dive deeper into the mystery.  I have more
You have not as of yet said the first word that made any biblical sense.

I cannot make any sense of it at all; biblical or otherwise.

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #4 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 05:37:29 »



Offline AlephBet

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #5 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 07:37:16 »
Quote
Let me know if you would like to dive deeper into the mystery.  I have more
You have not as of yet said the first word that made any biblical sense.

I cannot make any sense of it at all; biblical or otherwise.

It makes perfect biblical sense.  It does not make theological sense.  There is a vast difference.  Theology is presupposition on the wrong side of the mystery (left side).  Truth is orthogonal, on the right side.  Where did Jesus tell Peter to fish?  The right side of the boat.   

Each of us were created in perfection.  Genesis 1 was the creation of Adam (Son of God).  Genesis 2 is not the creation account.  Adam was formed by Yahweh in a garden he planted.  Bara is the Hebrew word create.  Genesis 2 uses the words made, formed and planted, but never create.  Genesis 2 is the planting of Spirits in the host; seeds in the soil; beasts in the field.  It's a garden where things grow.  We are planted here to grow from children to Sons.  Again, it's a garden.  We have a gardener.  We are seeds here in the image.   It's a harvest coming when summer comes, just before winter.  The fig tree was not ripe in the first century.   

Is mankind in perfection, or clothed in animal skin?  Skin.  If we were in perfection, we would be pure Spirit in the water above.  Did God make anything bad, or all things good?

1 Timothy 3

4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

In my example to you, I used Matthew 18, or the parable of the WANDERING sheep.  Where do sheep wander?  The wilderness.  Jesus was being asked who was the greatest in the kingdom of God.  Jesus called over a child, then told them the secret to the mystery.  The child is below, but the Angel (perfection) is above.  As I showed, the image below is an image, as in a mirror.  We are seeing ourselves here in the image (like a picture), but we are really facing God above.  Our Spirit (consciousness) is here in the image being refined.  Our true essence is the groom above.  Both bride and groom must be rejoined, just as Eve was divided form Adam to make more Sons.  You must be born from above.  One seed, many plants.  One blood, many veins. One loaf, many slices.  For we, who are many, are one loaf (1 Cor 10).  Seeds comprise the larger loaf. 

3 Jesus said, “You’re absolutely right. Take it from me: Unless a person is born from above, it’s not possible to see what I’m pointing to—to God’s kingdom.”

Baptism is the immersion of the Spirit from above into the animal body below.  We are the beast.   

Revelation 13

18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.[e-or of mankind] That number is 666.

Carbon is the mark of man.  6 protons, 6 neutrons and 6 electrons. 

We must overcome the beast below to be reborn into the Angel above.  The Angel faces the Father.

Matthew 18

10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

Matthew 22:30

30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Do you not believe that bride and groom are rejoined again?  Adam was the first and last.  He was the firstborn (from among the dead) of those resurrected above. 

You do not understand these things.  "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’

We have all been born again. 

Let's return to 1 Peter 3.  He made proclamation to the Spirits in the Pit.  Were they up in heaven?  No.  Who were they?  Those he came to set free.  Where do they go?  Heaven.  NO!  Only Jesus has been to heaven at the right hand of God.  Where?  Each person dies, then they are judged.  They must be born again.  They wait patiently.  No person is born twice, but the Spirit can occupy a new host (person).  The Spirit lives again because it has never died.  It must be placed in a new host.  The Lord is the Lord of Hosts.  That's us. 

Hebrews 9

But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

This is a parallel verse to 1 Peter 3

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

Parallelism is always showing / telling you where to return.  For instance, Revelation 13 is parallel to 2 Timothy 3.  The child is parallel to the Angel above.  Above is to below as Child is to Angel. 

3 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

None of the translations will show you this.  It's hidden orthogonally (at right angles).  You must see with open eyes and ears. 

MARK THIS!  What is the mark again?  Carbon.  Of what?  The beast.  How many markers above? 18, or 6+6+6.  There are three sets of domains marking selfishness (animal nature).  What was sacrificed outside of the temple?  The beast.  What cleansed the temple?  Water.  Who are you in the temple of the body?  Was Jesus body destroyed parallel to the temple complex?  70AD. 

How long to rebuild?  3 Days, 3000 years.  Until then, were do we wait?  In the water until he brings salvation.  Are we saved or in the water?  Do we die or do we live again?

Isaiah 26

19 But your dead will live, Lord;
    their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
    wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
    the earth will give birth to her dead.

20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
    and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
    until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
    to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
    the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

Here, we have two parallel directions to go.  First, the Dew and Rain.  Dew hits the ground, then is distilled when the sun rises in the morning.  Up and Down.  Jacob's ladder is one parallel verse, but I am thinking of the first resurrection in 1 Kings 17.

1 Kings 17

17 Now Elijah the Tishbite, from Tishbe[a] in Gilead, said to Ahab, “As the Lord, the God of Israel, lives, whom I serve, there will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word.”

No more dew or rain. 

We then meet the widow woman in Zarephath (meaning refinery).  She has a dead son in her bosom.  Elijah takes the Son UP, then DOWN.  What is this a picture of?  Baptism / Jacob's ladder / Dry bones.  Who is Elijah in the first century?  He is John the Baptist.  Let's now go to the second parallel verse to both 1 Kings 17 and Isaiah 26.  We need to know the coming wrath, or the parallel to 1 Kings 19 when the fire was brought on the wet wood to consume it. 

Matthew 3

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Again, how do we flee the fire?  Water puts out fire, which again is baptism, or immersion into the waters of the Jordan (across from the promised land).  Who are you again and where are you?  The Angel facing the Father (Matthew 18).  You are the child below AND the Angel above.  God made all things good. 

Again, biblical sense?  Yes.  Theological sense?  No.  They have their presuppositions completely wrong. 

« Last Edit: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 07:47:36 by AlephBet »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #6 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 08:04:15 »
I am sorry Aleph Bet but I cannot follow your posts at all. They seem like a bunch of random statements and verses strung together in no particular order.

I am sure that to you they make perfect sense.  But I get lost trying to follow it.

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #7 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 08:17:27 »

Offline AlephBet

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #8 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 08:19:14 »
I am sorry Aleph Bet but I cannot follow your posts at all. They seem like a bunch of random statements and verses strung together in no particular order.

I am sure that to you they make perfect sense.  But I get lost trying to follow it.

The word Father is Aleph Bet.  His Son is the Word.  Letters of DNA are strung together and hard to read.  What do they say?  Who finds the emerald?  Does the King already have emeralds?  Yes.  Does the slave keep what he finds?  No.  What is the true treasure?  The search to find the emerald.  The slave does the work.

PtahHotep (Joseph from Egypt) [link removed]

He says to his son: Be not arrogant because of that which thou knowest; deal with the ignorant as with the learned; for the barriers of art are not closed, no artist being in possession of the perfection to which he should aspire. 8 [But] good word(s) are more difficult to find than the emerald, 1 for it is by slaves that that is discovered among the rocks of pegmatite.

How did I find that PtahHotep was Joseph?  How old was Joseph when he died?  110.  It takes some digging, but once you know what you are seeing, you know what was hidden before you cracked it open.

« Last Edit: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 10:48:15 by Nevertheless »

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #9 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 08:22:10 »
I have been a pastor for 22 years and have been led to do a message entitled "How do you kill a dead man" referring to John 12:10.
A question came to my mind as Paul stated in Corinthians "To be absent from the body is to be present with Christ." and I accept this. However I am a little confused how could this be possible with Lazarus who had been dead for 4 days so where really was he at the time of death? Just open for discussion.
1Cor 15:20  But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

2Cor 5:8  Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

What I believe is this:   Christ is the firstfruits, so He was the first of those whose spirits would go directly on to be in Heaven after death.   Prior to this the spirit man, so to speak, went on to be in Sheol.   Lazarus' body was in the grave but his spirit was in Sheol.  When Christ called Lazarus from the grave Lazarus' spirit was reunited with his body.   

Offline AlephBet

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #10 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 08:55:22 »
I have been a pastor for 22 years and have been led to do a message entitled "How do you kill a dead man" referring to John 12:10.
A question came to my mind as Paul stated in Corinthians "To be absent from the body is to be present with Christ." and I accept this. However I am a little confused how could this be possible with Lazarus who had been dead for 4 days so where really was he at the time of death? Just open for discussion.

1Cor 15:20  But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

2Cor 5:8  Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

What I believe is this:   Christ is the firstfruits, so He was the first of those whose spirits would go directly on to be in Heaven after death.   Prior to this the spirit man, so to speak, went on to be in Sheol.   Lazarus' body was in the grave but his spirit was in Sheol.  When Christ called Lazarus from the grave Lazarus' spirit was reunited with his body.


Yes, but we must take the whole of scripture at its word. 

Hebrews 9

28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Where do we wait?  Has the coming wrath happened yet?  Has Christ returned?  Has he brought salvation?

Revelation 1

7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
    and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
    and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

This is pregnant with information.  First, those who pierced Christ will be there to see him return.  How can this be unless resurrection literally means being brought back into the water as a unique person?  He then says Amen:

Aleph Mem Nun is True in Hebrew.  Of course, in Greek, it is AMN Lamb.  Both languages are parallel for a reason.

AMN - LAMB
Amni - river of life
Amnio - bowl catching the sacrifice of the Roman Lamb
Amnion - sac covering the baby in the womb
Amniotic - fluid of the womb
Amnesia - Sia always denotes a condition.  Amnesia is the very same spelling as the next word.
Amnesty - This is when God forgets our transgression in the land
dAMNation - When God remembers

The True Lamb is encoded into the words and letters.  He is the Aleph Tav.  Moses body could not cross into the promised land.  Where did he stay?  Who is the body of Christ in the waters below?  Why?

Acts 24

15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16 So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.

Why are you blind to BOTH the righteous and wicked needing to be in one place to see Revelation 1 fulfilled?  Simply put, theology restricts you by telling you what to think.

Luke 11:52

"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering."

While we are on the subject of the leaders, has the enemy been made the footstool yet?  Has death been defeated, or do we die still?  When do these things take place?  When Christ returns.  Where are we as we wait?  Beasts in the water of the flood (both the righteous and wicked).  Why?

Ephesians 2

by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

I could keep going and going.  Until we admit the simple truth that baptism is literally pointing us to the process of rebirth form the dead, we are stuck in the old theology that claimed men would not be pious enough if they knew the truth.  It was a Pope that told us transmigration of the soul was false.  The Bible tells quite a different story. 

Do we come to Jesus for salvation, or does he come to us?

John 2

23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name. 24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. 25 He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.

While bringing people to the altar of the church building is good, and baptism into literal water is symbolic, we miss the point.  Jesus needs the testimony of no man.  He will entrust himself to no one, even those who were witnesses to the events.  Why?  John 3.  YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN. 

The Father must prepare us.

John 6:64-65

64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

The Father is where we arrive if we find the letters (Aleph Bet).  How many have found the letters do you suppose?  Coming through the word and you arrive.

What can I show you about the letters in English?

Ear is a seed, like an ear of corn.  In Hebrew, an ear is double meaning.  It is also the ear we hear with. 

If you add a Hey to ear, what do you get from the open ear (Seed)?



Where do seeds go when opening?  Into soil below and sky above.  Where is the soil where you behold the seed?

HearT



The plowman's mark is the tav, or the mark to hit with the Ox pulling the plow to make a straight and narrow furrow.  Where is the literal soil where you behold?  Move the Hey to the end.

EartH

Knowing the Father (letters) allows us to know the Son (word) fully. 

Father in Hebrew is Aleph Bet.  He writes the Word.

 

He is the one to find.  Where do you plant seeds?  Lazarus, why are you born again and again, furrow after furrow?  Lazarus is the same rich man one each side of the waters.  God is patient. 

« Last Edit: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 09:01:48 by AlephBet »

Offline AlephBet

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #11 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 09:06:04 »
I have been a pastor for 22 years and have been led to do a message entitled "How do you kill a dead man" referring to John 12:10.
A question came to my mind as Paul stated in Corinthians "To be absent from the body is to be present with Christ." and I accept this. However I am a little confused how could this be possible with Lazarus who had been dead for 4 days so where really was he at the time of death? Just open for discussion.

What do you see from this so far?  We have not HEARd from you yet.  Have you taken it to hearT?  Have ears opened?




Offline 4WD

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #12 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 09:14:27 »
What do you see from this so far?  We have not HEARd from you yet.  Have you taken it to hearT?  Have ears opened?

Seldom does one ever read such disjointed and irrational stuff as you have produced here in your few posts.  If you have something to say, try just saying it. Do you even know what it is that you are trying to say?  Perhaps this is your "speaking in tongues".

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #13 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 09:15:22 »
What do you see from this so far?  We have not HEARd from you yet.  Have you taken it to hearT?  Have ears opened?

Seldom does one ever read such disjointed and irrational stuff as you have produced here in your few posts.  If you have something to say, try just saying it. Do you even know what it is that you are trying to say?  Perhaps this is your "speaking in tongues".

 ::eatingpopcorn:

Offline AlephBet

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #14 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 09:33:58 »
What do you see from this so far?  We have not HEARd from you yet.  Have you taken it to hearT?  Have ears opened?


Seldom does one ever read such disjointed and irrational stuff as you have produced here in your few posts.  If you have something to say, try just saying it. Do you even know what it is that you are trying to say?  Perhaps this is your "speaking in tongues".


Are you referring to me in judgment, or what I have said?  I have used scripture in every instance.  Perhaps you should speak to the subject using the same scripture, then show me how I am incorrect. 

Quote
The subject: "A question came to my mind as Paul stated in Corinthians "To be absent from the body is to be present with Christ." and I accept this. However I am a little confused how could this be possible with Lazarus who had been dead for 4 days so where really was he at the time of death? Just open for discussion."


The answer is to see Lazarus on both sides of the waters of life.  We are all on both sides.  On this side, the body of Christ.  On the other, the groom with the Father building the house.  Eve must be refined away from the groom building the house. 

I am reading the symbols back to you as words.  This is the way Hebrew thought is meant to be read.  What is Scribed can be deScribed.  Babel can be unbabel.  Eyes and ears must open.  To know the Word, you must know the Aleph Bet (Father). 



This is not a new concept.  No one comes to the Father (Aleph Bet), but by the Word (Son).  Open the Amazing Ancient Hebrew Lexicon: LEXICON with link-back to this website. 



« Last Edit: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 17:50:15 by AlephBet »

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #15 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 09:48:12 »
The answer is to see Lazarus on both sides of the waters of life.  We are all on both sides. 

What do you mean? That Lazarus was not really physically dead?

Offline AlephBet

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #16 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 10:23:10 »
The answer is to see Lazarus on both sides of the waters of life.  We are all on both sides. 

What do you mean? That Lazarus was not really physically dead?

John 11:11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."

Isaiah 26

19 But your dead will live, Lord;
    their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
    wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
    the earth will give birth to her dead.

---Rebirth is resurrection into the waters above AND below (Water AND Spirit).  Where do we go to sleep?

20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
    and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
    until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
    to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
    the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

1 Kings 17

19 “Give me your son,” Elijah replied. He took him from her arms, carried him to the upper room where he was staying, and laid him on his bed. 20 Then he cried out to the Lord, “Lord my God, have you brought tragedy even on this widow I am staying with, by causing her son to die?” 21 Then he stretched himself out on the boy three times and cried out to the Lord, “Lord my God, let this boy’s life return to him!”

The upper room again.  Sleep.  That ladder leads somewhere Jacob.  Dry bones live again when dew and rain fall.  The sun distills the water back again. 

Zarephath is a refinery.  So is Egypt and Babylon.  Temples crumble.  Our body will die.  What of the Spirit in us?

You MUST be born again.







« Last Edit: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 10:25:22 by AlephBet »

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #17 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 10:45:09 »
The answer is to see Lazarus on both sides of the waters of life.  We are all on both sides. 

What do you mean? That Lazarus was not really physically dead?

John 11:11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."

Isaiah 26

19 But your dead will live, Lord;
    their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
    wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
    the earth will give birth to her dead.

---Rebirth is resurrection into the waters above AND below (Water AND Spirit).  Where do we go to sleep?

20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
    and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
    until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
    to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
    the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

1 Kings 17

19 “Give me your son,” Elijah replied. He took him from her arms, carried him to the upper room where he was staying, and laid him on his bed. 20 Then he cried out to the Lord, “Lord my God, have you brought tragedy even on this widow I am staying with, by causing her son to die?” 21 Then he stretched himself out on the boy three times and cried out to the Lord, “Lord my God, let this boy’s life return to him!”

The upper room again.  Sleep.  That ladder leads somewhere Jacob.  Dry bones live again when dew and rain fall.  The sun distills the water back again. 

Zarephath is a refinery.  So is Egypt and Babylon.  Temples crumble.  Our body will die.  What of the Spirit in us?

You MUST be born again.

Yes, I realize we must be born again...but I asked you what you were saying about Lazarus...is it your belief that he was not physically dead.  ::shrug::

Can you just answer my very simple question with a very simple yes or no, please? Thanks.

Offline AlephBet

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #18 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 12:17:42 »
The answer is to see Lazarus on both sides of the waters of life.  We are all on both sides. 

What do you mean? That Lazarus was not really physically dead?

John 11:11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."

Isaiah 26

19 But your dead will live, Lord;
    their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
    wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
    the earth will give birth to her dead.

---Rebirth is resurrection into the waters above AND below (Water AND Spirit).  Where do we go to sleep?

20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
    and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
    until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
    to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
    the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

1 Kings 17

19 “Give me your son,” Elijah replied. He took him from her arms, carried him to the upper room where he was staying, and laid him on his bed. 20 Then he cried out to the Lord, “Lord my God, have you brought tragedy even on this widow I am staying with, by causing her son to die?” 21 Then he stretched himself out on the boy three times and cried out to the Lord, “Lord my God, let this boy’s life return to him!”

The upper room again.  Sleep.  That ladder leads somewhere Jacob.  Dry bones live again when dew and rain fall.  The sun distills the water back again. 

Zarephath is a refinery.  So is Egypt and Babylon.  Temples crumble.  Our body will die.  What of the Spirit in us?

You MUST be born again.

Yes, I realize we must be born again...but I asked you what you were saying about Lazarus...is it your belief that he was not physically dead.  ::shrug::

Can you just answer my very simple question with a very simple yes or no, please? Thanks.

Perhaps you didn't read what was written: John 11:11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 12:20:03 by AlephBet »

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #19 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 12:24:23 »
Perhaps you didn't read what was written: John 11:11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."

Oh my gosh!  ::frustrated::  Yes, I know what is written about Lazarus, I am asking YOU to explain what you understand the scripture to be saying regarding it.

It is not that hard. I don't know why you wont just let your yes be yes or your no be no?  ::shrug::

Is it your understanding that Lazarus was not really physically dead?

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #20 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 17:09:09 »
Perhaps you didn't read what was written: John 11:11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."

Oh my gosh!  ::frustrated::  Yes, I know what is written about Lazarus, I am asking YOU to explain what you understand the scripture to be saying regarding it.

It is not that hard. I don't know why you wont just let your yes be yes or your no be no?  ::shrug::

Is it your understanding that Lazarus was not really physically dead?

It's not a yes no answer.  The verse seems to speak for the state he was in apart from his body.  Jesus then said he would go "there" to wake him.  Where is there?  Back where the Jews tried to stone him, which is then seen in parallel to the pit from the book of Hebrews 11.

Parallel passages are important:  "35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning;[e] they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground. 

The allusion is on many levels.  In the next verses, he then states that Lazarus was dead.  It's not the verses of sleeping or death so much as this verse that relates to what I told you:

9 Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Anyone who walks in the daytime will not stumble, for they see by this world’s light. 10 It is when a person walks at night that they stumble, for they have no light.”

Day and night.  Morning Dew.  All of this symbolism is speaking to a higher degree of truth.  Jesus was Prophet here.  He IS Priest.  He will be Almighty.  You are missing the larger mystery of what he is saying about the leaders walking in darkness below (night), related to the other Lazarus and the rich man (divided day and night).  Where was the rich man?  Where was Lazarus from the book of Luke?  Divided.  While all souls are here in the waters of life walking in the day (and night), some Spirits are not above facing the Father, but below in the pit.  The image happens in the middle between.  BOTH the righteous and wicked must be together.  They are in the pit if they are walking in darkness.  Where was Jesus headed to wake Lazarus?  Again, dual mystery going on in this.   

He then revealed that he was speaking on a metaphorical level when he said this:

14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

16 Then Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]) said to the rest of the disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”

Was he speaking plainly when he was saying that he was asleep?  No.  He was showing a parable, which is then related to the other Lazarus, which was are reflective parable to the real Lazarus.  We don't get done with this story until John 12, where we find out that he was indeed raised form the dead.  The other verses I showed you were related to the larger parable of the leaders who horded truth and wealth.  The same is true in our day and age.  The point is to bear fruit and rise to NEW life (resurrection).  Below, we will face those groping in darkness.  Above, Jesus faced them in the waters of life.  Baptism brings the up.

Was Lazarus dead (in the pit)?  No, he was above in his chamber sleeping.  Again, I showed you Isaiah 26 and 1 Kings 17.  You choose not to listen or believe what I am showing.  What did Jesus say about parables falling on deaf ears?

Judgement does this to you.  Remove your condescension and bias and we might have a chance to discuss an amazing set of verses in parallel to this story.  Resurrection IS the meaning of rising to new life.  In this case, Lazarus was not born again.  He was resurrected back to the same body.  What is a host?  What does a Spirit do?  They possess.  What is the Lord of Hosts?  What is his station in the grand scheme of waters above and below.  Where is the darkness in water?  Down deep.  Where is Jesus taking the men he fishes for in the water?  Deeper or above water? 

Where do men take themselves with judgement of others? Are any of us free from sin that we can cast stones?  Is the story reflective of our conversations here among brothers?





« Last Edit: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 17:15:42 by AlephBet »

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #21 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 17:38:35 »
Perhaps you didn't read what was written: John 11:11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."

Oh my gosh!  ::frustrated::  Yes, I know what is written about Lazarus, I am asking YOU to explain what you understand the scripture to be saying regarding it.

It is not that hard. I don't know why you wont just let your yes be yes or your no be no?  ::shrug::

Is it your understanding that Lazarus was not really physically dead?

It's not a yes no answer. 

 ::tearhair::  yeah...it really is, but I've no more patience to keep trying to wrangle a simple answer from you.

 ::bagonface::

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #22 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 17:51:36 »
Lazarus was dead. The OP asked, where was he (his spirit) for the 4 days while he was dead?

Been unable to follow a lot of what's been posted.







Offline MeMyself

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #23 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 18:13:04 »
Lazarus was dead. The OP asked, where was he (his spirit) for the 4 days while he was dead?

Been unable to follow a lot of what's been posted.

You and me both, Jd!

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #24 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 18:18:43 »
Lazarus was dead. The OP asked, where was he (his spirit) for the 4 days while he was dead?

Been unable to follow a lot of what's been posted.


It's a mystery for sure.  Between Heaven and the Pit, we have waters above and below.  There are so many related passages to this idea.  The parables of Lazarus are necessary to see ourselves in the characters between. 

There are parallels between the two Lazarus stories: LINK with link back to this site. 

In the Hebrew Bible, the father of all high priests is Lazarus, son of Arron.  We also have Lazarus, the son of Abanidab, whose house the Ark rested.   Eleazar is the name Lazarus.  El is often used as the term relating to the house of God.  Ezer in Hebrew is helper / power / strength.  El is Aleph Lamed, or Strong Shepherd. 

Both Eleazar's lost brothers (killed by Yahweh) for handling the Ark incorrectly.  I would go on with this, but it would require me to move on to why Yahweh had to be baptized into the High Priest Joshua/Yeshua from Zechariah 3.  This IS not simply the foundation of the temple, but Jesus and the actual temple in parallel.  Related, both the Lazarus figures above relate to Genesis 9 and the payment of blood.  His blood would be shed by human hands.  Too much for this one thread.

You can't hear me anyway.  I see this. 
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 18:25:30 by AlephBet »

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #25 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 20:29:04 »
Lazarus was dead. The OP asked, where was he (his spirit) for the 4 days while he was dead?

Been unable to follow a lot of what's been posted.


Myself also  ???


My take on where Lazarus may have been for 4 days is likely Heaven, although scripture does not support this view I find it interesting that the Chief Priests wanted him dead, one can only imagine what Lazarus must have been testifying to as he told his story to fellow Jews concerning his death and resurrection. His remarkable testimony was a reflection of truth, more than enough for people to know that Jesus was indeed the Messiah, and thus begin to follow Him.

Jd34

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #26 on: Mon Mar 02, 2015 - 23:14:25 »
No doubt that Lazarus was physically dead but I think his spirit was a sleep so to speak...as Christ eluded to... So I think his spirit was not in heaven with God the Father because God the Son had not yet been sacrificed for man to enter heaven. Only thru Christ can we get to the Father in heaven...

I just kinda think that Lazarus spirit was not in heaven, not in hell,  not in purgatory but at rest (as in a sleep state)

Which just brings another question. Where did anybody's spirit go that lived and died before Jesus came for us?   ::shrug::

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #27 on: Tue Mar 03, 2015 - 04:03:32 »
No doubt that Lazarus was physically dead but I think his spirit was a sleep so to speak...

He was dead physically, as far a his body, but not his spirit, for the spirit of just men and women, children cannot die. That is impossible, it goes against the the testimony of the scriptures and the biblical definition of eternal life, which means that one cannot die, only those who do not posses eternal life can and will. 

By the fact/truth that God walked and fellowship and was a friend of OT saints, prove that there is a doctrine, that the scriptures would support called eternal justification for the chosen seed of Jesus Christ~Grace and mercy were given to them before the foundation of the world, which means from eternity~there has never been a time when the elect seed was not loved by God through his Son, never.  Consider:

Question #1~"Did OT saints walked with God"? Enoch~Genesis 5:22,24 Did he died, if not, where did he go? The same place that Abel and every born again child of God goes,, right into presence of the holy angels, (who are spirits) where just men go and are there until this very day, waiting for their glorified bodies, but there nonetheless. 

Question #2~"Some will ask:  What are you talking about when you say that the scriptures would support a doctrine called eternal justification"?  Simply put: That from eternity past, or, before the foundation of this earth, God purpose and gave GRACE to US in Christ Jesus before this earth was created.  What God purposed to do, was as good as DONE, for WHAT POWERS could possibly defeat or even hinder God's eternal purposes that he purposed to do through His Son for us?  Answered....none, even if they joined hand to hand, they could not stop God's purposes from being fulfilled.  That being said and true, in the OT God walked, fellowship, and was a friend to his chosen seed from Abel to the apostles, the very same way as he does with us, post Calvary!   Alleluia this is so.

2 Timothy 1:9

  .
  "9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

Again~Revelation 13:8

  .
"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

There is no other way to justified God's actions toward the OT saints than to understand the doctrine of Justification, that it includes, not only a legal aspect, or phase, (Jesus' death and resurrection) but an eternal phase as well~being chosen by God in Christ.  Of course there is a vital, practical, and final phase, as well, that could be consider at another time. 

« Last Edit: Tue Mar 03, 2015 - 04:11:52 by Red Baker »

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #28 on: Tue Mar 03, 2015 - 04:23:08 »
The great cloud of witnesses was certainly in Heaven, as Red pointed out God Himself justified men to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #29 on: Tue Mar 03, 2015 - 08:18:04 »
Yes, a spirit can never die but but when Jesus speaks in terms of "sleep " it makes me wonder what exactly he is talking about. We know that only thru Christ can a man enter heaven.

And Speaking of OT saints makes me think of Mathew 27

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints that sleptarose,
53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

There is death and there is sleep. Two totally different things. We know that a body can sleep and that a body can die. 

We know that a spirit is eternal and cannot die, but do we know that a spirit can sleep?

Btw Red, thanks for that solid understandable post!

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #30 on: Tue Mar 03, 2015 - 13:13:02 »
Been unable to follow a lot of what's been posted.

AlephBet either does not know english very well; or cannot put 2 thougts together sequencially. His posts seem to go in every direction at the same time.

Impossible to follow.

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #31 on: Tue Mar 03, 2015 - 13:15:41 »
Yes, a spirit can never die but but when Jesus speaks in terms of "sleep " it makes me wonder what exactly he is talking about. We know that only thru Christ can a man enter heaven.

It was a common euphemism for physical death.  Paul used it in 1 Corinthians 11:30.   

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #32 on: Tue Mar 03, 2015 - 14:19:24 »
Been unable to follow a lot of what's been posted.

AlephBet either does not know english very well; or cannot put 2 thougts together sequencially. His posts seem to go in every direction at the same time.

Impossible to follow.
I follow.  I fancy I do, anyway.  ::noworries::

AlephBet,

I will try to... translate... for the masses.  Please feel free to correct me if I am conveying your thoughts/theology incorrectly.

The leading thought (as I glean it), is that there are two realities.  One above.  One below.

Everything here in this world that we see "naturally" we would consider to be 'below.'  The reality 'above' is, by and large, imperceptible to the average person.  It can only be seen "spiritually," and most people do not spend the time to bother trying to perceive it.

What exists above is eternal.  What exists below is not.

The Bible explains these two realities using words which are oftentimes symbolic.  That doesn't go far enough.  Whole stories (not just a few words) are here construed to have significant meaning outside the literal sense (this doesn't make the literal sense false; the stories just have another layer).

To wit, he advances several pairs of key-words which are loaded in this way and tap into the greater framework of "above and below:"

"Heavens" stand in juxtaposition to "Earth"
"Waters Above" in juxtaposition to "Waters Below"
"The Ark" (as being above water) in juxtaposition to "Baptism" (as being below water)

Time for a mind-bending idea... People exist in both realities, at the same time.  Every person that has ever existed (or will exist) has an "above" version of themself that stands "before God" eternally.

At some point, this 'above' version of self, is projected into the lower 'world.'  The spirit is wrapped up in a fleshy sack we call a body, which ties it to the 'below.'  The 'below' version of people is not eternal like the 'above' - it dies.  It does not always exist.

Now, when the above version is projected into the lower, how do us people 'here below' perceive that?  As a birth, usually.  But, in the case of Lazarus, whose body had already died, the re-projection of his spirit back into the same body, was perceived as a resurrection.

And all resurrections would presumably be viewed the same way.

Finally, an interesting consequence of this view is that transmigration of souls (uh... spirits) is possible, and likely.  You might know this phenomenon by the more modern terminology - re-incarnation.

End Translation.  I hope I represented that faithful to the author's intent.

Jarrod

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #33 on: Tue Mar 03, 2015 - 20:50:53 »
Yes, a spirit can never die but but when Jesus speaks in terms of "sleep " it makes me wonder what exactly he is talking about. We know that only thru Christ can a man enter heaven.

And Speaking of OT saints makes me think of Mathew 27

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints that sleptarose,
53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

There is death and there is sleep. Two totally different things. We know that a body can sleep and that a body can die. 

We know that a spirit is eternal and cannot die, but do we know that a spirit can sleep?

Btw Red, thanks for that solid understandable post!


When does Hebrews 9 tell you that salvation comes?  When?  Not a moment sooner for anyone.  Where is the body of Christ today? 

Your answer is Here.

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #34 on: Tue Mar 03, 2015 - 21:00:24 »
Been unable to follow a lot of what's been posted.


AlephBet either does not know english very well; or cannot put 2 thougts together sequencially. His posts seem to go in every direction at the same time.

Impossible to follow.

I follow.  I fancy I do, anyway.  ::noworries::

AlephBet,

I will try to... translate... for the masses.  Please feel free to correct me if I am conveying your thoughts/theology incorrectly.

The leading thought (as I glean it), is that there are two realities.  One above.  One below.

Everything here in this world that we see "naturally" we would consider to be 'below.'  The reality 'above' is, by and large, imperceptible to the average person.  It can only be seen "spiritually," and most people do not spend the time to bother trying to perceive it.

What exists above is eternal.  What exists below is not.

The Bible explains these two realities using words which are oftentimes symbolic.  That doesn't go far enough.  Whole stories (not just a few words) are here construed to have significant meaning outside the literal sense (this doesn't make the literal sense false; the stories just have another layer).

To wit, he advances several pairs of key-words which are loaded in this way and tap into the greater framework of "above and below:"

"Heavens" stand in juxtaposition to "Earth"
"Waters Above" in juxtaposition to "Waters Below"
"The Ark" (as being above water) in juxtaposition to "Baptism" (as being below water)

Time for a mind-bending idea... People exist in both realities, at the same time.  Every person that has ever existed (or will exist) has an "above" version of themself that stands "before God" eternally.

At some point, this 'above' version of self, is projected into the lower 'world.'  The spirit is wrapped up in a fleshy sack we call a body, which ties it to the 'below.'  The 'below' version of people is not eternal like the 'above' - it dies.  It does not always exist.

Now, when the above version is projected into the lower, how do us people 'here below' perceive that?  As a birth, usually.  But, in the case of Lazarus, whose body had already died, the re-projection of his spirit back into the same body, was perceived as a resurrection.

And all resurrections would presumably be viewed the same way.

Finally, an interesting consequence of this view is that transmigration of souls (uh... spirits) is possible, and likely.  You might know this phenomenon by the more modern terminology - re-incarnation.

End Translation.  I hope I represented that faithful to the author's intent.

Jarrod


You nailed it.  You said this in one part: "Time for a mind-bending idea... People exist in both realities, at the same time.  Every person that has ever existed (or will exist) has an "above" version of themself that stands "before God" eternally."

Matthew 18

10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

Right now, we are both the Child below and Angel above.  At the final resurrection, what will we be?

Matthew 22:30

At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Are you an angel now?  NOPE!  Salvation comes only when Christ returns (Hebrews 9).

You also stated baptism as transmigration.  Here is the thread I just did for this topic:  LINK

If those reading would take your comments to heart, then go back with understanding and ready my comments, they would know the excluded middle. 

Let me tell you a quick story.

Two friends were arguing over a topic.  One friend was a train engineer.  The other sat on a porch each day watching the train go by.  One day, they argued about the whistle changing pitch as the train goes by.  The engineer said the whistle remained constant.  The friend said the pitch changed.  Who was right? 

Both.  The excluded middle is the Doppler effect.  Once you know the higher axiom of truth, no more paradox.  Frame of reference and perspective.  Look right. 

You fail to understand me because you miss the information hidden orthogonality.  Fish on the right side of the boat Peter. Ignore theology and what it tells you to believe.  Instead, read the Word and allow the Spirit to teach. 



 
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 03, 2015 - 21:05:51 by AlephBet »

 

     
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