Author Topic: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity  (Read 4462 times)

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Offline 4WD

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #70 on: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 15:16:24 »
Read that verse again (Isaiah 9:6). It says He SHALL be called the Everlasting Father. It doesn't say He was called that BEFORE He came to earth. He SHALL also be called The Prince of Peace.

So I really don't see anything there Red.

4WD--- I understand what you are saying and respect you for it. I will just say that Abraham and Isaac also lead me to believe that the Son of God has been the Son from eternity. When God says "You have not witheld your son, your Only son from me..." I believe this foreshadows God sacrificing His Son (God the Son) and not witholding Him from us.

But as I said before, we will all find out one day, and it is no discussion that should drive us away from loving one another as brothers in Christ.

I have read some discussions making the claim that in the Old Testament the tetragrammaton, YHWH, which loosely translates as "Lord" is actually referencing Jesus in His pre-incarnate being.  I don't think there is any way to know that for certain, but it does make some sense.

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #70 on: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 15:16:24 »

Offline RB

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #71 on: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 15:19:01 »
Read that verse again (Isaiah 9:6). It says He SHALL be called the Everlasting Father. It doesn't say He was called that BEFORE He came to earth. He SHALL also be called The Prince of Peace.
Was Jesus the MIGHTY God before he came to earth?
Quote
So I really don't see anything there Red.
Because you do not see it, does not make it not so. In his divine nature, he was INDEED the Everlasting Father. 

Offline fish153

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #72 on: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 22:29:41 »
He was the Almighty God before He came to earth. I'm just saying that Isaiah 9:6 is not a good verse to use against Eternal Sonship. It is referring to what He WILL BE called after He comes to earth.

Before He came to earth He was God the Son, which He continued to be after the Incarnation.

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #73 on: Mon Feb 13, 2017 - 06:53:35 »
He was the Almighty God before He came to earth. I'm just saying that Isaiah 9:6 is not a good verse to use against Eternal Sonship. It is referring to what He WILL BE called after He comes to earth.

Before He came to earth He was God the Son, which He continued to be after the Incarnation.


But what does "Son" mean before the incarnation?  Before the incarnation, there is no meaning that can be attached to the term or concept of "Son".  Before the incarnation He was the WORD, He was Lord, He was Savior.  But only after he came in human form as a baby born of Mary by the Holy Spirit does the concept of Son even make sense.

Offline RB

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #74 on: Mon Feb 13, 2017 - 07:36:37 »
He was the Almighty God before He came to earth. I'm just saying that Isaiah 9:6 is not a good verse to use against Eternal Sonship. It is referring to what He WILL BE called after He comes to earth.
Brother you still are dancing around Isaiah 9:6. Okay, consider this point~even after God was incarnated in human flesh in the person of Jesus of Nazareth, BOTH were the EVERLASTING Father in their divine nature, because that DIVINE nature is ONE......that NEVER changed! EVERLASTING means what to you? Let me ask you in another way~WHO is the everlasting Father? Remember before you answer this question that God IS NEVER refer to as the everlasting Father directly as the Son was! Which only proves one thing~our God is ONE Lord God in their Divine nature, yet manifested to us as three according to their work of redemption, etc. But in NO OTHER SENSE are there three, but ONE.
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 13, 2017 - 07:44:53 by RB »

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #74 on: Mon Feb 13, 2017 - 07:36:37 »



Offline TonkaTim

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #75 on: Mon Feb 13, 2017 - 08:18:13 »
Red, I agree. I think it is summed up in this one verse in 1 Peter 1:

"20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you"


This is such a powerful verse to me on the subject.


"Who verily was foreordained (not begotten) before the foundation of the world, but was manifest (incarnated/begotten) in these last times for you"

Those last two words just wow me, "for you"

To me it just illustrates the incredible indescribable power of God. It is all laid out according to his perfect plan down the the last detail including all that would believe.


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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #76 on: Mon Feb 13, 2017 - 09:15:34 »
He was the Almighty God before He came to earth. I'm just saying that Isaiah 9:6 is not a good verse to use against Eternal Sonship. It is referring to what He WILL BE called after He comes to earth.
Brother you still are dancing around Isaiah 9:6. Okay, consider this point~even after God was incarnated in human flesh in the person of Jesus of Nazareth, BOTH were the EVERLASTING Father in their divine nature, because that DIVINE nature is ONE......that NEVER changed! EVERLASTING means what to you? Let me ask you in another way~WHO is the everlasting Father? Remember before you answer this question that God IS NEVER refer to as the everlasting Father directly as the Son was! Which only proves one thing~our God is ONE Lord God in their Divine nature, yet manifested to us as three according to their work of redemption, etc. But in NO OTHER SENSE are there three, but ONE.

Red,

You have said a lot about what Jesus was not prior to His incarnation. Now I wonder how you would identify Jesus prior to His incarnation.
You believe there was a Trinity prior to the incarnation, so there always were three different persons: the First Member of the Trinity, the Second Member of the Trinity and The Holy Spirit.
Now if the Second Member was not the Son prior to the incarnation, then the First Member was not the Father.

So how would you suggest prior to the incarnation the First and Second Member should be identified? How should we call them?
God 1, God 2 and the Holy Spirit?
or how about Father 1, Father 2 and the Holy Spirit?

What would be the difference between the 2 Members of the Trinity? And if there is none, then maybe the Trinity did not exist prior to the incarnation?

Offline fish153

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #77 on: Mon Feb 13, 2017 - 14:33:24 »
Red----

I'm not "dancing around" anything. I would like to read your response to AVZ concerning the Trinity. I think he is asking a very good question.

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #78 on: Tue Feb 14, 2017 - 05:54:52 »
Red----

I'm not "dancing around" anything. I would like to read your response to AVZ concerning the Trinity. I think he is asking a very good question.

RB can answer for himself, but I think what the disciples called Jesus, namely, Lord is the same as He is called before becoming a human being.  The LXX translates the Hebrew YHWH as "kurios".  And "kurios" is used to identify Jesus often in the NT.   I think that might be all that is needed.  The Trinity before the incarnation might suitably be God, Lord and Spirit.

But then John, in his first chapter, calls him the Word in the beginning.  So that would work also.  John also says that all things were made by Him [the Word] (John 1:3) and in Genesis 2:4 it says the Lord made the heavens and earth.  So I think Lord works.
« Last Edit: Tue Feb 14, 2017 - 06:04:06 by 4WD »

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #79 on: Tue Feb 14, 2017 - 23:27:50 »
Red----

I'm not "dancing around" anything. I would like to read your response to AVZ concerning the Trinity. I think he is asking a very good question.

RB can answer for himself, but I think what the disciples called Jesus, namely, Lord is the same as He is called before becoming a human being.  The LXX translates the Hebrew YHWH as "kurios".  And "kurios" is used to identify Jesus often in the NT.   I think that might be all that is needed.  The Trinity before the incarnation might suitably be God, Lord and Spirit.

But then John, in his first chapter, calls him the Word in the beginning.  So that would work also.  John also says that all things were made by Him [the Word] (John 1:3) and in Genesis 2:4 it says the Lord made the heavens and earth.  So I think Lord works.

However, Psalm 110: Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."
seems to identify both the Father and the Son as "Lord"

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #80 on: Tue Feb 14, 2017 - 23:35:32 »
He was the Almighty God before He came to earth. I'm just saying that Isaiah 9:6 is not a good verse to use against Eternal Sonship. It is referring to what He WILL BE called after He comes to earth.
Brother you still are dancing around Isaiah 9:6. Okay, consider this point~even after God was incarnated in human flesh in the person of Jesus of Nazareth, BOTH were the EVERLASTING Father in their divine nature, because that DIVINE nature is ONE......that NEVER changed! EVERLASTING means what to you? Let me ask you in another way~WHO is the everlasting Father? Remember before you answer this question that God IS NEVER refer to as the everlasting Father directly as the Son was! Which only proves one thing~our God is ONE Lord God in their Divine nature, yet manifested to us as three according to their work of redemption, etc. But in NO OTHER SENSE are there three, but ONE.

Hi Red,

I have an additional question.

John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.


That appears to be technically incorrect.
If there was no Son prior to the incarnation, then there was no Son that could be sent.

Offline RB

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #81 on: Wed Feb 15, 2017 - 05:41:48 »
I have an additional question.  John 3:16-17For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. That appears to be technically incorrect. If there was no Son prior to the incarnation, then there was no Son that could be sent.
(Red highlight mine....) Greetings my brother. There is no incorrect technically here~everything is correct and still does not prove that the Son is eternal. Eternal ONLY in his divine nature, NOT his sonship. I see no problem with the way this scripture is worded no more than I do with this one:
Quote
John 1:6~"There was a man sent from God, whose name was John."
Dear brother, John was sent from God, but that does not make him an living eternal prophet of God, now does it? I take that no more than the scriptures revealing God's eternal purposes to us in steps as they happen, and nothing more than that. I will answer your other questions later.
« Last Edit: Wed Feb 15, 2017 - 05:44:49 by RB »

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #82 on: Wed Feb 15, 2017 - 06:46:27 »
I have an additional question.  John 3:16-17For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. That appears to be technically incorrect. If there was no Son prior to the incarnation, then there was no Son that could be sent.
(Red highlight mine....) Greetings my brother. There is no incorrect technically here~everything is correct and still does not prove that the Son is eternal. Eternal ONLY in his divine nature, NOT his sonship. I see no problem with the way this scripture is worded no more than I do with this one:
Quote
John 1:6~"There was a man sent from God, whose name was John."
Dear brother, John was sent from God, but that does not make him an living eternal prophet of God, now does it? I take that no more than the scriptures revealing God's eternal purposes to us in steps as they happen, and nothing more than that. I will answer your other questions later.

Red, think with me for a second.
If Jesus was already the Son prior to the incarnation, then the Son would be eternal. Unless of course you can make a point that somewhere between eternity past and incarnation the second Person of the Trinity became a Son.

So in my thinking, at some point in the eternal past God said: "I am going to send My Son to the world".
But that would only make sense if there was a Son. You seem to say that the second person of the Trinity was not called or considered "Son" prior to the incarnation.

If there was no Son then John 3:16-17 would have gone like this:
For God so loved the world that He gave His second member of the Trinity, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
For God did not send His second member of the Trinity into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.


So God did not send His Son. He sent the second member of the Trinity to become His Son by human birth.

Offline Pkbrother

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #83 on: Wed Mar 29, 2017 - 22:48:47 »
I wanted to weigh in on this subject of trinity......
I have read most of these discusions and want to make a few points.......
According to the greatest comandmesnt there is only 1 God
here oh Israel the Lord(yahweh) our God is one......
And the only one....
The shema is spoken every sabbath in every synagogue for 3000 years??????
This is a stumbling wall to Jews and muslims to accept Christ who try to understnd trinity and see more than one God.....spoken by gentile western Chrsitians
Muslims say alah akbar..meaning alah is the greatest and only God.......
The word of God repeated by Jesus says that Yahweh the God of abraham Isaac and Jacob is the only one true God
This greatest commandment is foundational and important when addressing the trinity.....
I believe gentiles are confused with this trinity doctrine because we do not see the greatest commandment
that Jesus referred to!!!!
Throughout history gentiles have divided over this doctrine starting with the Nicean creed in 330ad.
PAul stated in Romans that we as gentiles must humble ourselves and not walk in pride or we would be cut off like the Jews in 70ad.
The foundation of the church is Christ the cornerstone built on the foudation of the jewish apsotles and prophets....ephesians 2:20
Until we humble ouselves and get back to our jewish roots we as gentiles will continue to stumble over the cornerstone.......


Offline Noblemen

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #84 on: Wed Apr 05, 2017 - 12:44:46 »
That wreaks of some serious indoctrination, unreal.
You understand what you believe does not save you right.  ::frustrated::

Offline TheMatrixHasU71

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #85 on: Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 08:59:50 »
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God AND THE WORD WAS GOD.

The same was in the beginning with God

John 1:3

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

There is a good reason why that passage was written the way it was. Jesus Christ created all things in the universe AND NO CREATED BEING CAN EVER BE A CREATOR





Offline cgaviria

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #86 on: Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 09:19:10 »
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God AND THE WORD WAS GOD.

The same was in the beginning with God

John 1:3

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

There is a good reason why that passage was written the way it was. Jesus Christ created all things in the universe AND NO CREATED BEING CAN EVER BE A CREATOR


Did it not occur to you that Christ was in the beginning because he was made in the beginning? Why do you suppose that he is called the "firstborn of creation", meaning the first person to be created in all creation? Or that he is the wisdom of God that was made as the first of the works of God? Or even why he is called "son", since a son does not come into existence at the same time as a father, but after a father? Or even why although he was created he was also creator because it relates to being "image of God" (the representation of God)? UNDERSTAND the word of God, and stop believing the nonsensical lies taught by your churches. They are only going to lead to your perdition for foolishness and lack of understanding. There is a reason why the trinity verses do not appear in earlier manuscripts of scripture and even why men such as Eusebius quoted the Matthew 28:19 verse in a different way, "in my name", because that was the way it was written originally because the trinity form of the verses were forged into the scriptures much later in time pushing a doctrine that is false. OPEN YOUR EYES AND UNDERSTAND.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #87 on: Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 10:53:40 »
UNDERSTAND the word of God, and stop believing the nonsensical lies taught by your churches. They are only going to lead to your perdition for foolishness and lack of understanding.

So...you believe that believing in the trinity is the unpardonable sin?

Offline cgaviria

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #88 on: Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 11:07:09 »
So...you believe that believing in the trinity is the unpardonable sin?

It has nothing to do with aeonial sins that are not forgiven, it has to do with merely understanding the word of God, which will subsequently lead you to do the will of God that then yields life, whereas lack of understanding of the word of God, which is evident in your misunderstanding in this matter, will lead you to do no the will of God, which will then yield death. You MUST understand the word of God, otherwise you will perish from lack of understanding. The matter of the trinity is a doctrine of fools, who did not understand the scriptures and formulated a false doctrine mixed with other false religions based on trinities, and have forged it unto the scriptures. Which is why there is manuscript evidences proving this, and even why the trinity verses do not even harmonize with other scriptures that clearly state to do things only in the name of Jesus Christ. It is a doctrine of gullible fools! Listen to my words dear one.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #89 on: Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 11:09:40 »
It has nothing to do with aeonial sins that are not forgiven, it has to do with merely understanding the word of God, which will subsequently lead you to do the will of God that then yields life, whereas lack of understanding of the word of God, which is evident in your misunderstanding in this matter, will lead you to do no the will of God, which will then yield death. You MUST understand the word of God, otherwise you will perish from lack of understanding.

What understanding specifically will keep one from perishing, cg? What do you believe that is keeping you right with God?


Offline cgaviria

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #90 on: Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 11:26:45 »
What understanding specifically will keep one from perishing, cg? What do you believe that is keeping you right with God?

First starting with understanding this topic concerning the trinity. Once you come to understanding on this, and acknowledge that what I just told you is true, then we can move forward unto other topics.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #91 on: Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 11:45:30 »
First starting with understanding this topic concerning the trinity. Once you come to understanding on this, and acknowledge that what I just told you is true, then we can move forward unto other topics.

its not another topic, you brought it up.  But, I can't make you answer for the hope within you.  You seem to not want to share that, just slap at others.

Offline cgaviria

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #92 on: Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 11:56:19 »
its not another topic, you brought it up.  But, I can't make you answer for the hope within you.  You seem to not want to share that, just slap at others.


I'm a busy person. I don't have time to go on endless rants on a forum to again discover that you're going to keep resisting the truth regarding this matter. I have communicated with you before, and it has always been the same case with you. I have spent much time stating my position both from a manuscript and theological perspective, all backed by scripture, and have posted it here,

http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/02/07/the-deception-of-the-teaching-of-the-trinity/

So take it, or leave it. If you take it, then great, then we can progress into further matters. If not, I bid you farewell.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #93 on: Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 12:08:16 »
I'm a busy person. I don't have time to go on endless rants on a forum to again discover that you're going to keep resisting the truth regarding this matter. I have communicated with you before, and it has always been the same case with you. I have spent much time stating my position both from a manuscript and theological perspective, all backed by scripture, and have posted it here,

http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/02/07/the-deception-of-the-teaching-of-the-trinity/

So take it, or leave it. If you take it, then great, then we can progress into further matters. If not, I bid you farewell.


"Its always been the same case with you".  And what case is that? 
You say its backed by scripture, but others have also shown that what YOU say is proof isn't as much proof as you'd like it to be to fit your agenda.

However, saying that, I would sincerely enjoy understanding what you are saying and just in plain on regular folk english.  I don't have to agree with you to understand you. I can't agree with you as of right now anyway, as I can't hear you past your insulting posting manner and unwillingness to teach from patience. ::shrug::  You just want to tell people what to believe and leave no room for questions or critical thinking from them.

Offline cgaviria

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #94 on: Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 12:15:51 »
"Its always been the same case with you".  And what case is that? 
You say its backed by scripture, but others have also shown that what YOU say is proof isn't as much proof as you'd like it to be to fit your agenda.

However, saying that, I would sincerely enjoy understanding what you are saying and just in plain on regular folk english.  I don't have to agree with you to understand you. I can't agree with you as of right now anyway, as I can't hear you past your insulting posting manner and unwillingness to teach from patience. ::shrug::  You just want to tell people what to believe and leave no room for questions or critical thinking from them.

 rofl

Offline Alan

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #95 on: Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 12:32:04 »
"Its always been the same case with you".  And what case is that? 
You say its backed by scripture, but others have also shown that what YOU say is proof isn't as much proof as you'd like it to be to fit your agenda.

However, saying that, I would sincerely enjoy understanding what you are saying and just in plain on regular folk english.  I don't have to agree with you to understand you. I can't agree with you as of right now anyway, as I can't hear you past your insulting posting manner and unwillingness to teach from patience. ::shrug::  You just want to tell people what to believe and leave no room for questions or critical thinking from them.


He can't teach you if you're not garbed in your head covering.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #96 on: Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 12:59:17 »
"Its always been the same case with you".  And what case is that? 
You say its backed by scripture, but others have also shown that what YOU say is proof isn't as much proof as you'd like it to be to fit your agenda.

However, saying that, I would sincerely enjoy understanding what you are saying and just in plain on regular folk english.  I don't have to agree with you to understand you. I can't agree with you as of right now anyway, as I can't hear you past your insulting posting manner and unwillingness to teach from patience. ::shrug::  You just want to tell people what to believe and leave no room for questions or critical thinking from them.

This guy believes Jesus was a created being.  Why waste your time with that?

Offline cgaviria

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #97 on: Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 13:06:01 »
This guy believes Jesus was a created being.  Why waste your time with that?

Then don't. You'll find out soon enough I was right. The second coming of Christ is about to happen.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #98 on: Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 13:07:22 »
Then don't. You'll find out soon enough I was right. The second coming of Christ is about to happen.

Every other nutjob that comes to this board with their special insight says this.

Offline Alan

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #99 on: Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 13:10:33 »
Then don't. You'll find out soon enough I was right. The second coming of Christ is about to happen.


BOOM! ... just played the "I'm right and you're wrong and you'll see soon enough card"  rofl


If there was truth to everyone of these guys that said that, we'd all be doomed.   ::crackup::

Offline cgaviria

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #100 on: Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 13:14:44 »
Every other nutjob that comes to this board with their special insight says this.

I have no special insight nor do I need it. Just knowledge of the appointed times of the book of Daniel and the Torah. The 1290+1335 years of Daniel are about to expire, in correlation with the next Jubilee year, which happens every 50 years. If you wanna throw out what knowledge I have, then by all means, go right ahead. As I said, soon enough you will know I was right. Perhaps then you might've wished not to be so quick to call that one guy in that forum a nutjob and throw out what knowledge he had as rubbish.

Offline cgaviria

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #101 on: Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 13:16:19 »

BOOM! ... just played the "I'm right and you're wrong and you'll see soon enough card"  rofl


If there was truth to everyone of these guys that said that, we'd all be doomed.   ::crackup::

I am right, hence why your trinity verses only exist in later manuscripts. How much longer will you people keep resisting the truth?

Offline Alan

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #102 on: Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 13:18:18 »
I am right, hence why your trinity verses only exist in later manuscripts. How much longer will you people keep resisting the truth?


I don't think we're resisting, you just simply don't possess the truth.

Offline cgaviria

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #103 on: Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 13:21:47 »

I don't think we're resisting, you just simply don't possess the truth.

I do actually, Jesus Christ commanded we do all things in his name alone, not in the name of the trinity. This is the truth that you are resisting, to your own doom because of your stubbornness and lack of understanding. It grieves me for your sake, truly.

Offline Alan

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Re: The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
« Reply #104 on: Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 13:25:58 »
It grieves me for your sake, truly.


No it doesn't. You have NEVER attempted to befriend anyone here, you have come across as the firing squad and we are all the prosecuted.