Author Topic: The Sin of Sodom was Racism  (Read 4911 times)

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Offline MeMyself

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #70 on: Sat Dec 21, 2013 - 12:42:49 »
Amen, Fish!

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #70 on: Sat Dec 21, 2013 - 12:42:49 »

Offline MeMyself

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #71 on: Sat Dec 21, 2013 - 13:01:46 »
You mean not one of you has looked up the city of the End Time called Sodom  You mean none of you are researchers ? Or are you afraid of what you find and can not explain it according to your indocrination in holiness ?

We await your response, or your silence is deafening and indicative of a much greater problem
 

Maybe we are waiting for you to answer the much more simple question of whether or not you agree with God that sex between 2 men is an abomination. Its simple, yes or no.

yup...

Offline Davidjayjordan

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #72 on: Sat Dec 21, 2013 - 18:26:22 »
Hope you continue to post according to your theology of a combination of Grace and Holiness... on the other thread.

Back to this topic of Racism and Hatred by those of Sodom and Capernaum and Jerusalem

Revelation 11

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.


This is not about those in Jersualem being homosexuals but about the hate in their heart for the two Christian prophets. They party after they kill them and mock and absue their bodies on the steps of the 3rd Temple. Jerusalem is called Sodom

Offline Nevertheless

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #73 on: Sat Dec 21, 2013 - 20:02:20 »
I have made it a rule, never to answer you MeMyself.

But to answer, Nevertheless's personal question in trying to excuse discussing an objective topic that the objectors are objecting to.

Yes, I am Canadian and my first language is English. But then I have been on the mission field for so many years, I have a lot of other languages mixed in there as well.

But I hated semantics (SEE Semantics Topic) word twisting and yet had to take five English courses in University to obtain my degree. This degree I never used, because I became a missionary for Jesus.

So now Nevertheless have you ever taken logic before. Can you do simple math, please answer my simple question.




Actually my motivation for asking was to give you the benefit of the doubt. I thought that if English was not your native language it would explain why you seem to have so much trouble comprehending and responding to others' posts. Sadly, we must look elsewhere for an explanation.


My answers to the two questions you asked of me are yes and yes. My turn.


Did you know that 1+1 can = 3?

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #74 on: Sun Dec 22, 2013 - 02:03:33 »
This whole discussion has become about nothing and is going nowhere.

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #74 on: Sun Dec 22, 2013 - 02:03:33 »



Offline chosenone

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #75 on: Sun Dec 22, 2013 - 03:28:55 »
Hope you continue to post according to your theology of a combination of Grace and Holiness... on the other thread.

Back to this topic of Racism and Hatred by those of Sodom and Capernaum and Jerusalem

Revelation 11

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.


This is not about those in Jersualem being homosexuals but about the hate in their heart for the two Christian prophets. They party after they kill them and mock and absue their bodies on the steps of the 3rd Temple. Jerusalem is called Sodom


So you don't agree that sex between 2 men is an abomination?

Offline Davidjayjordan

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #76 on: Mon Dec 23, 2013 - 11:35:29 »
Jeruslaem is not called Sodom because of homosexual practises there, but because of its hatred for strangers. Jerusalem occupied by the AC and the AC forces of all the world, then converts all to their all emcompassing religion of all religions, including of course the Jews, then declares war on all people that do not take their MARK of the Beast.

And as you know the devil hates, Jesus is Love, God is love, the AC is hate incarnate. Hate is the great abomination..... not sex. But do start that thread, on sexual lifestyle and why it is so abominable. You're a moderator, you have latitudes we normal posters would not have. Be brave and start a new thread. Its what you are so concerned about, so do it.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #77 on: Mon Dec 23, 2013 - 11:53:26 »
Jeruslaem is not called Sodom because of homosexual practises there, but because of its hatred for strangers. Jerusalem occupied by the AC and the AC forces of all the world, then converts all to their all emcompassing religion of all religions, including of course the Jews, then declares war on all people that do not take their MARK of the Beast.

And as you know the devil hates, Jesus is Love, God is love, the AC is hate incarnate. Hate is the great abomination..... not sex. But do start that thread, on sexual lifestyle and why it is so abominable. You're a moderator, you have latitudes we normal posters would not have. Be brave and start a new thread. Its what you are so concerned about, so do it.

Why don't you ever just answer questions put before you? What are you wishing to hide?

The Word of God is clear that there are acceptable ways for us to behave sexually.  You act as if God just winks at sin...He does not, and He will not be mocked! Our sin cost Christ everything and we should not shake our fist in His face by disobeying the Word of God on how we should live.

Offline Helen

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #78 on: Mon Dec 23, 2013 - 12:14:53 »
Hate is the great abomination?  Wow....have you never read:

The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong.
You destroy those who tell lies;
bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors.

Psalm 5

I hate those who trust in worthless idols;
I trust in the LORD.

Psalm 31

You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.

Psalm 45

Let those who love the LORD hate evil,
for he guards the lives of his faithful ones
and delivers them from the hand of the wicked.

Psalm 97

I hate double-minded men, but I love your law
...and because I consider all your precepts right
I hate every wrong path.
...I hate and abhor falsehood
but I love your law.

Psalm 119

I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.
To fear the LORD is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.

Proverbs 8

The righteous hate what is false,
but the wicked bring shame and disgrace.

Proverbs 13

"For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery and iniquity.
Isaiah 61

"Since you did not hate bloodshed, bloodshed will pursue you. 
Ezekiel 35

Hate evil, love good;
maintain justice in the courts

Amos 5

There are many, many more verses literally commanding us to hate what is evil and saying that the Lord does, also  There are also people He hates, as the first quote indicates. 

In the meantime, Jerusalem hates strangers?  Hardly!  It is a truly international city (although some of the residents hate each other!) and was the center of international trade routes for thousands of years. 

Offline chosenone

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #79 on: Mon Dec 23, 2013 - 13:01:10 »
Jeruslaem is not called Sodom because of homosexual practises there, but because of its hatred for strangers. Jerusalem occupied by the AC and the AC forces of all the world, then converts all to their all emcompassing religion of all religions, including of course the Jews, then declares war on all people that do not take their MARK of the Beast.

And as you know the devil hates, Jesus is Love, God is love, the AC is hate incarnate. Hate is the great abomination..... not sex. But do start that thread, on sexual lifestyle and why it is so abominable. You're a moderator, you have latitudes we normal posters would not have. Be brave and start a new thread. Its what you are so concerned about, so do it.


Gods calls homosexual behaviour an abomination, so take it up with him if you don't like it. You seem to think its ok for a man to have sex with another man when God clearly says it is anything but Ok. its very damaging for those men doing it, and for society as a a whole.

Sexual sins are a sin against our own bodies, and there will always be bad consequences if you sin that way. We have a close Christian friend who is gay, and he has far more awareness than you of how very wrong it is. He KNOWS it is wrong. 

Again you keep going on about hate. I hate no one, and no one here has been hateful towards gays. if I hated gays I wouldnt have a gay friend who is like a brother to us, but we are here on a CHRISTIAN forum, and we must be able to say what is right or wrong without being accused of things we haven't done by you or anyone else.  We only repeat what the Bible says, but the word of God is clear on what we are to do and not do sexually.


Offline Davidjayjordan

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #80 on: Mon Dec 23, 2013 - 16:15:38 »
Hate is the great abomination?  Wow....have you never read:

The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong.
You destroy those who tell lies;
bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors.

Psalm 5

I hate those who trust in worthless idols;
I trust in the LORD.

Psalm 31

You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.

Psalm 45

Let those who love the LORD hate evil,
for he guards the lives of his faithful ones
and delivers them from the hand of the wicked.

Psalm 97

I hate double-minded men, but I love your law
...and because I consider all your precepts right
I hate every wrong path.
...I hate and abhor falsehood
but I love your law.

Psalm 119

I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.
To fear the LORD is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.

Proverbs 8

The righteous hate what is false,
but the wicked bring shame and disgrace.

Proverbs 13

"For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery and iniquity.
Isaiah 61

"Since you did not hate bloodshed, bloodshed will pursue you. 
Ezekiel 35

Hate evil, love good;
maintain justice in the courts

Amos 5

There are many, many more verses literally commanding us to hate what is evil and saying that the Lord does, also  There are also people He hates, as the first quote indicates. 

In the meantime, Jerusalem hates strangers?  Hardly!  It is a truly international city (although some of the residents hate each other!) and was the center of international trade routes for thousands of years.

Then why did the Lord call Jerusalem Sodom, because it is an international city... hardly ? Try another ploy.

As for hating evil, Yes hate those that use hate to abuse and make war on others, to steal their goods and resources and take their people. Hate materialism and pride, and theifery, and killing.... but don;t label all citizens of a country as evil, and then encourage warfare against them to take their goods etc etc etc...

Jesus said to LOVE and not hate, but to love you have to yield to His Spirit of LOVE.

Offline Helen

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #81 on: Mon Dec 23, 2013 - 17:27:04 »
David, you scatter red herrings like confetti.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #82 on: Mon Dec 23, 2013 - 19:57:26 »
David, you scatter red herrings like confetti.

 ::nodding::

Offline chosenone

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #83 on: Tue Dec 24, 2013 - 00:21:34 »
Hate is the great abomination?  Wow....have you never read:

The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong.
You destroy those who tell lies;
bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors.

Psalm 5

I hate those who trust in worthless idols;
I trust in the LORD.

Psalm 31

You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.

Psalm 45

Let those who love the LORD hate evil,
for he guards the lives of his faithful ones
and delivers them from the hand of the wicked.

Psalm 97

I hate double-minded men, but I love your law
...and because I consider all your precepts right
I hate every wrong path.
...I hate and abhor falsehood
but I love your law.

Psalm 119

I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.
To fear the LORD is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.

Proverbs 8

The righteous hate what is false,
but the wicked bring shame and disgrace.

Proverbs 13

"For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery and iniquity.
Isaiah 61

"Since you did not hate bloodshed, bloodshed will pursue you. 
Ezekiel 35

Hate evil, love good;
maintain justice in the courts

Amos 5

There are many, many more verses literally commanding us to hate what is evil and saying that the Lord does, also  There are also people He hates, as the first quote indicates. 

In the meantime, Jerusalem hates strangers?  Hardly!  It is a truly international city (although some of the residents hate each other!) and was the center of international trade routes for thousands of years.

Then why did the Lord call Jerusalem Sodom, because it is an international city... hardly ? Try another ploy.

As for hating evil, Yes hate those that use hate to abuse and make war on others, to steal their goods and resources and take their people. Hate materialism and pride, and theifery, and killing.... but don;t label all citizens of a country as evil, and then encourage warfare against them to take their goods etc etc etc...

Jesus said to LOVE and not hate, but to love you have to yield to His Spirit of LOVE.


 We are to hate the sin. We are to hate sin that leads people to hell and ruins their lives. 

Love isn't wishy washy David, its strong and sure and true.
When Jesus was bought the lady who had committed adultery, He didn't say its ok, go and do it again as much as you like, its not that bad really.
He said go and sin no more. If we allow people to think that living a sinful lifestyle isn't that bad, we are lying to them.
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 24, 2013 - 03:30:38 by chosenone »

Offline DaveW

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #84 on: Tue Dec 24, 2013 - 05:36:57 »
Back to this topic of Racism and Hatred by those of Sodom and Capernaum and Jerusalem

Revelation 11.7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.


This is not about those in Jerusalem being homosexuals but about the hate in their heart for the two Christian prophets. They party after they kill them and mock and abuse their bodies on the steps of the 3rd Temple. Jerusalem is called Sodom

I thought that was the passage you are referencing.  I take it as an indictment against the islamic forces that now occupy the city. Sodom being indicative of spiritual perversion (islam) and Egypt being indicative of bondage and slavery.

Offline Davidjayjordan

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #85 on: Tue Dec 24, 2013 - 07:49:08 »
Yes, your interpretation gives you your nationalistic fornication of church and state, or beast with the people love making, but you of course blame Islam rather than all religions.

All religions love materialism, all religions shall take the MARK of the Beast,

Read Revelations etc etc etc etc etc....

All people will take the MARK except those that have faith to survive or die. Death doesn;t make real Christians afraid as to live is Christ and to die is gain. Besides they have already given up everything for the Lord. They were not arm chair, critics and semantic theologians

Offline Charlie24

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #86 on: Sat Jan 04, 2014 - 18:33:43 »
19 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.”

“No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.”
 
3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”
 
6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”
 
9 “Get out of our way,” they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.
 
10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.  Gen 19

They are right David. There were many wicked sins in these cities, but none worse than sodomy. They even tried to have sex with the angels that came to destroy the city.

Offline DaveW

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #87 on: Mon Jan 06, 2014 - 05:48:24 »
Then why did the Lord call Jerusalem Sodom,

That, sir, is a mystery.  Apparently there will come something in Jerusalem that resembles the Sodom of Genesis and the Egypt of Exodus. We do not know what that is.

The sins of the ancient city of Sodom were homosexuality and they did not use their abundance to help the poor:

Ezekiel 16:49 (NASB)   Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy.

If you are trying to draw conclusions about some future sins of Jerusalem, perhaps you should look at that verse.

Offline CatHead

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #88 on: Mon Mar 24, 2014 - 23:32:12 »
The sins of the ancient city of Sodom were homosexuality and they did not use their abundance to help the poor:

Ezekiel 16:49 (NASB)   Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy.
Hi Dave,

The sin of Sodom wasn't homosexuality, it was prostituting themselves to angels. The "strange flesh" they are said to have exposed themselves before is from the greek "heteras sarkos".  It's ironic to me that the very word (strange) that most scholars use as their "prooftext" of sodomite homosexuality is literally translated "hetero" as in "heterosexual" lol.  Hetero just means "different", so the proper, literal translation of the phrase "going after strange flesh" is "going after different flesh"

Jude1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange (G2087) flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

G2087  heteros  het'-er-os
of uncertain affinity;
(an-, the) other or different.
KJV: altered, else, next (day), one, (an-)other, some, strange.


If you are seeking "different flesh" you aren't seeking the flesh of other men (or women) because all men and woman are the same flesh.  1 Corinthians 15:39,40 lists the different types of flesh. 4 different types of terrestrial (earthly) flesh, and 1 celestial (heavenly) type.  But clearly says that the flesh of men is all of the same type. Therefore if you were desiring a "[hetero] different (strange) flesh" that type of flesh couldn't be found among other human beings, men or women. You would be desiring the flesh of beasts, fishes, birds, or celestial creatures limiting yourself to Paul's definitions of the various types of living flesh available.

1 Corinthians 15:39
All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another


Desiring sex with other human beings, heterosexual or homosexual, is not an option in Jude 1:7.  I'm not trying to advance a pro-homosexual viewpoint or anything, just trying to stay true to what is written.  Homosexuality is definitely a sin and an abomination before God.  But the Sodomites were doing something that was apparently even worse and more abominable than that even! Something so bad a new word had to be invented for it ekporneuo!  Which from a study of it's root words would mean something like "over and above prostitution" or "ultra prostitution".

Jude1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication G1608 ekporneuo, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.



Offline DaveW

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #89 on: Tue Mar 25, 2014 - 05:29:45 »
Cathead - you completely ignored Ezekiel 16:4

Offline DaveW

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #90 on: Tue Mar 25, 2014 - 06:40:11 »

The sin of Sodom wasn't homosexuality, it was prostituting themselves to angels. 
How can that be true if the angels had not even been there yet when they came down to investigate?

Gen 18.20 And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave,
21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”
22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord.

The angels had not been there yet, so what was the outcry and the grave sin?

Offline CatHead

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #91 on: Tue Mar 25, 2014 - 18:27:08 »
Hi Dave,
Cathead - you completely ignored Ezekiel 16:4
Ezekiel 16:49,50 does plainly list the sins of Sodom, but doesn't elaborate upon the sexual sinfulness outlined in Jude 1:7.  I understand that the scope of Sodom's sinfulness was beyond sexual perversion (pride, arrogance, in-hospitality, gluttony etc).  Ezekiel doesn't elaborate on what the sexual sin of Sodom was though, just generically calls it "abominations" which could be anything.  So yes, I did ignore it because there isn't any insight into the sexual sin of Sodom in Ezekiel that I can see.


The sin of Sodom wasn't homosexuality, it was prostituting themselves to angels. 
How can that be true if the angels had not even been there yet when they came down to investigate?

Gen 18.20 And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave,
21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”
22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord.

The angels had not been there yet, so what was the outcry and the grave sin?
Yes, excellent point.  The angels that visited Lot came to destroy the city for their sins not judge it.  Sodom was judged already prior to their visitation, which makes Jude 1:7 even more intriguing.  The actions of the crowd in front of Lot's house didn't factor into Sodom's judgement.  So yes, Jude 1:7 requires there to be other angels in Sodom prior to Gen 19 for the Sodomites to lust after.  Jude 1:6 makes allowance for that.

 

Offline DaveW

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #92 on: Wed Mar 26, 2014 - 06:00:45 »
Quote
So yes, Jude 1:7 requires there to be other angels in Sodom prior to Gen 19 for the Sodomites to lust after. 

That is pure conjecture.  While it may have been possible, there is no hint that it ever happened. It is NEVER a good idea to base a doctrine on something that might have been.

Offline CatHead

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #93 on: Thu Mar 27, 2014 - 05:47:14 »
Hi Dave,
Quote
So yes, Jude 1:7 requires there to be other angels in Sodom prior to Gen 19 for the Sodomites to lust after. 

That is pure conjecture.  While it may have been possible, there is no hint that it ever happened. It is NEVER a good idea to base a doctrine on something that might have been.
Nah, not really conjecture. It is plainly written in scripture that the Sodomites were taken in their lusts for evil spirits and fallen angels, and for this reason they were judged.  Obfuscated by poor translation to be sure, but nevertheless it's there.  The "grave sinners" of 2peter2:10 that God reserves in judgement firstly, weren't those that were dissatisfied with their government lol. If that were the case alot of us would be in trouble ::lookaround::

2Pe 2:10  But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.


The emboldened part of 2Peter 2:10 is the part that plainly says that the Sodomites lusted after unclean spirits and angels.  Doesn't look like much right now, but a minimal amount of research and word study makes it come to life. 

This verse is really hacked up by translators imo.  A word for word translation from the greek helps see how badly the sentence structure has been damaged by translators...

2 Peter 2:10a malista(especially) de(but) tous(the ones) opiso(behind) sarkos(flesh) en(in) epithumia(lust) miasmou(foul air) poruomenous(traveling, wandering) kai(and) kuriotetos(lords, powers) kataphronountas(disesteemed, disfavored)....

..."but especially the ones behind flesh lusting(after) wandering miasma and disfavored lords..."

and there you have it....a simple statement of the Sodomites "grave" sexual sin.  The Sodomites(the ones behind flesh) lusting after "wandering miasma" (unclean spirits) and "disfavored lords" (fallen angels)

"miasmous" is the heavy, foul air that becomes present when a body decays.  It can be, and is, used in scripture to simply mean "corruption" but it's etymological origin is as I said.  It is a descriptor of the corrupted air, not the dead, corrupted body.  Miasma is still in use today in the English language and is used to mean pollution, or swamp gas, or any corrupted air.  Miasmou is a term that is interchangeable with "unclean spirit" imo because they mean exactly the same thing.  Miasmou literally meaning "foul air", unclean spirit literally meaning "foul air" akathartos[foul](g169) pneuma[air](g4151)

g169 akathartos
ak-ath'-ar-tos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of G2508 (meaning cleansed); impure (ceremonially, morally (lewd) or specifically (demonic)): - foul, unclean.


g4151 pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.


Add to the evidence that the "miasmou" are said to be traveling, or wandering in 2peter2:10 (miasmou poruomenous[g4198]) exactly the behavior of unclean spirits described by Christ in Matthew 12:43, and it becomes clear to me that the author of 2Peter is describing an unclean spirit that is the focus of the Sodomite lust....

Mat 12:43  When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

g4198 poreuomai
por-yoo'-om-ahee
Middle voice from a derivative of the same as G3984; to traverse, that is, travel (literally or figuratively; especially to remove [figuratively die], live, etc.): - depart, go (away, forth, one’s way, up), (make a, take a) journey, walk.


 

Offline DaveW

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #94 on: Thu Mar 27, 2014 - 05:53:52 »
Bad exegesis on 2 Peter 2.  I do not see v10 as talking about the men of Sodom but the contemporaries of the original audience. Yes, the apostle uses Noah and Lot as examples, but the are examples to be applied to how someone lives NOW.

Offline CatHead

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #95 on: Thu Mar 27, 2014 - 06:16:30 »
Hi Dave,
Bad exegesis on 2 Peter 2.  I do not see v10 as talking about the men of Sodom but the contemporaries of the original audience. Yes, the apostle uses Noah and Lot as examples, but the are examples to be applied to how someone lives NOW.

Thank you very much for your thoughtful response.  Wow 6 minutes!  You digest scripture very quickly! [/sarcasm]

Yes I would suggest that we apply this teaching to ourselves as well and don't lust after demons and fallen angels like the Sodomites did  ;)

Offline fish153

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #96 on: Thu Mar 27, 2014 - 21:41:01 »
CatHead said---


>>>>The sin of Sodom wasn't homosexuality, it was prostituting themselves to angels<<<

Come on.

"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error". (Romans 1:26, 27)

Your argument is actually quite foolish.  The Bible also says drunkards shall not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.  I am an alcoholic--and believe I was BORN with that propensity---however I haven't had a drink for years.  Imagine if I tried to make the argument that it really isn't really drunkeness that is the sin, but what I do while I'm drunk. So I begin defending drunkeness itself and stating that the Bible is not condemning it, but is instead condemning some drunkards for actions they take.

This is what you are doing. The Bible clearly condemns homosexuality (just as it does drunkeness) and we get the word "sodomy" from the city called Sodom. Romans 1 clearly shows that homosexuality is a perversion---and the people of Sodom were so perverted that they would gather outside a man's house and demand he bring out his visitors so they could have sex with them. The sin of Sodom is crystal clear----don't try to defend it.  I cannot defend my alcoholism even though I was BORN with it--I must repent and admit that what the Bible calls "sin" is sin.

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #97 on: Fri Mar 28, 2014 - 08:11:17 »
Hi Fish,
CatHead said---


>>>>The sin of Sodom wasn't homosexuality, it was prostituting themselves to angels<<<

Come on.

"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error". (Romans 1:26, 27)
Romans 1 doesn't have anything to do with this discussion because none of the sins that are mentioned are attributed to the Sodomites specifically.  It gives no insight into the 'grave sin' of Sodom that I can see.

Your argument is actually quite foolish.
That's a bit harsh wouldn't you say?  And unfair considering you haven't even read my argument.  Because if you had you would see that I said that I'm not trying to defend homosexuality, just trying to defend the integrity of the word.....refer to my wasted keystrokes below

Desiring sex with other human beings, heterosexual or homosexual, is not an option in Jude 1:7.  I'm not trying to advance a pro-homosexual viewpoint or anything, just trying to stay true to what is written.  Homosexuality is definitely a sin and an abomination before God.  But the Sodomites were doing something that was apparently even worse and more abominable than that even! Something so bad a new word had to be invented for it ekporneuo!  Which from a study of it's root words would mean something like "over and above prostitution" or "ultra prostitution".

  The Bible also says drunkards shall not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.  I am an alcoholic--and believe I was BORN with that propensity---however I haven't had a drink for years.  Imagine if I tried to make the argument that it really isn't really drunkeness that is the sin, but what I do while I'm drunk. So I begin defending drunkeness itself and stating that the Bible is not condemning it, but is instead condemning some drunkards for actions they take.
Good luck with your struggles brother!

This is what you are doing. The Bible clearly condemns homosexuality (just as it does drunkeness) and we get the word "sodomy" from the city called Sodom. Romans 1 clearly shows that homosexuality is a perversion---and the people of Sodom were so perverted that they would gather outside a man's house and demand he bring out his visitors so they could have sex with them. The sin of Sodom is crystal clear----don't try to defend it.  I cannot defend my alcoholism even though I was BORN with it--I must repent and admit that what the Bible calls "sin" is sin.
Well no, that's not even close to what I'm doing.  If you are gonna troll and bash posters on this forum you should at least extend them the courtesy of familiarizing yourself with what they say instead of just reading the first sentence of their post and making an assumption about the rest of it...I really hope this is not how you study scripture and formulate doctrine!

It is not possible that the crowd of Sodomites in front of Lot's house were experiencing homosexual lust, because the objects of their lust were not men, they were angels.  Even if the Sodomites were ignorant of the fact that they were angels and thought they were men (which we are not told that is the case) their lust would not be homosexual.  If a man is attracted to what he thinks is another man, but is in fact a transsexual woman pretending to be a man, his lust is in reality heterosexual.  Even though he may think his lust is homosexual, it's not, because the object of his lust is in reality a woman. 

The scene in front of Lot's house occurred after Sodom was judged by God and didn't factor into God's judgement.  Yes, their behavior in Genesis19 may be a good indicator of their past behavior, and the reason for their judgement.  But you cannot say with any certainty that they lusted after the visitors to Lot's house because they were men, or because they knew they were angels.  We aren't told if the Sodomites knew if the men were really angels or not.  If their past behavior was to lust after angels, and they knew these visitors were angels, and that's the reason they lusted after them....then there is harmony with Jude 1:7.  If they lusted after the visitors because they thought they were men, then this behavior is in direct conflict with Jude 1:7.



AVZ

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #98 on: Fri Mar 28, 2014 - 10:04:42 »
Hi Fish,
CatHead said---


>>>>The sin of Sodom wasn't homosexuality, it was prostituting themselves to angels<<<

Come on.

"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error". (Romans 1:26, 27)
Romans 1 doesn't have anything to do with this discussion because none of the sins that are mentioned are attributed to the Sodomites specifically.  It gives no insight into the 'grave sin' of Sodom that I can see.

Your argument is actually quite foolish.
That's a bit harsh wouldn't you say?  And unfair considering you haven't even read my argument.  Because if you had you would see that I said that I'm not trying to defend homosexuality, just trying to defend the integrity of the word.....refer to my wasted keystrokes below

Desiring sex with other human beings, heterosexual or homosexual, is not an option in Jude 1:7.  I'm not trying to advance a pro-homosexual viewpoint or anything, just trying to stay true to what is written.  Homosexuality is definitely a sin and an abomination before God.  But the Sodomites were doing something that was apparently even worse and more abominable than that even! Something so bad a new word had to be invented for it ekporneuo!  Which from a study of it's root words would mean something like "over and above prostitution" or "ultra prostitution".

  The Bible also says drunkards shall not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.  I am an alcoholic--and believe I was BORN with that propensity---however I haven't had a drink for years.  Imagine if I tried to make the argument that it really isn't really drunkeness that is the sin, but what I do while I'm drunk. So I begin defending drunkeness itself and stating that the Bible is not condemning it, but is instead condemning some drunkards for actions they take.
Good luck with your struggles brother!

This is what you are doing. The Bible clearly condemns homosexuality (just as it does drunkeness) and we get the word "sodomy" from the city called Sodom. Romans 1 clearly shows that homosexuality is a perversion---and the people of Sodom were so perverted that they would gather outside a man's house and demand he bring out his visitors so they could have sex with them. The sin of Sodom is crystal clear----don't try to defend it.  I cannot defend my alcoholism even though I was BORN with it--I must repent and admit that what the Bible calls "sin" is sin.
Well no, that's not even close to what I'm doing.  If you are gonna troll and bash posters on this forum you should at least extend them the courtesy of familiarizing yourself with what they say instead of just reading the first sentence of their post and making an assumption about the rest of it...I really hope this is not how you study scripture and formulate doctrine!

It is not possible that the crowd of Sodomites in front of Lot's house were experiencing homosexual lust, because the objects of their lust were not men, they were angels.  Even if the Sodomites were ignorant of the fact that they were angels and thought they were men (which we are not told that is the case) their lust would not be homosexual.  If a man is attracted to what he thinks is another man, but is in fact a transsexual woman pretending to be a man, his lust is in reality heterosexual.  Even though he may think his lust is homosexual, it's not, because the object of his lust is in reality a woman. 

The scene in front of Lot's house occurred after Sodom was judged by God and didn't factor into God's judgement.  Yes, their behavior in Genesis19 may be a good indicator of their past behavior, and the reason for their judgement.  But you cannot say with any certainty that they lusted after the visitors to Lot's house because they were men, or because they knew they were angels.  We aren't told if the Sodomites knew if the men were really angels or not.  If their past behavior was to lust after angels, and they knew these visitors were angels, and that's the reason they lusted after them....then there is harmony with Jude 1:7.  If they lusted after the visitors because they thought they were men, then this behavior is in direct conflict with Jude 1:7.


I fear you are off in many ways:

A) God had not judged Sodom yet prior to the angels actually going there.
What you see in Genesis 18 is God telling Abraham that He was going to check things out. But if what was said about the city was true, God would destroy it.
You also see that Abraham influences Gods decision and lowers the level for destruction.

B) The men in Sodom didn't know the strangers were angels. Here is how they address them:
Gen 19:5 "Where are the men which came in to thee this night?"
Gen 19:8 " only unto these men do nothing"
The Hebrew word used here is for mortal men, male persons. Its indiscriminately used for "men of Sodom", the "man" Lot and the "men" that visited Lot.
The word for angel can be found in Gen 19:1.

You could say that Sodom confirmed the rumors that were going around about it, and in that sense Sodom condemned itself.

Offline CatHead

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #99 on: Fri Mar 28, 2014 - 20:49:49 »
Hi AVZ,
I fear you are off in many ways:

A) God had not judged Sodom yet prior to the angels actually going there.
What you see in Genesis 18 is God telling Abraham that He was going to check things out. But if what was said about the city was true, God would destroy it.
You also see that Abraham influences Gods decision and lowers the level for destruction.
Possibly, but that isn't the way I see it.  The Lord didn't accompany the 2 angels to Sodom, he only came as far as Abraham's camp and then returned after his visit with Abraham. He didn't go himself to the city to 'check things out'. The statement of the angels in Genesis 19:13 is that 'the Lord had sent them to destroy the city'. So considering Abraham's camp was the last place the Lord and the two angels were together, that would be from where they were sent to destroy the city, and that was from where the Lord made the decision to destroy the city.

B) The men in Sodom didn't know the strangers were angels. Here is how they address them:
Gen 19:5 "Where are the men which came in to thee this night?"
Gen 19:8 " only unto these men do nothing"
The Hebrew word used here is for mortal men, male persons. Its indiscriminately used for "men of Sodom", the "man" Lot and the "men" that visited Lot.
The word for angel can be found in Gen 19:1.
It seems quite proper to refer to angels as iysh (men) even if you know they are angels.  The author himself does this in Genesis 19, referring to them as ma'lak in vs.1 and then back to calling them iysh in vs.10.  Other examples of this where a person knew they were talking about an angel but still referred to them as iysh would be Manoah's wife in Judges 13:6 or Daniel referring to Gabriel as iysh in Daniel 9:21.


Offline DaveW

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #100 on: Mon Mar 31, 2014 - 06:04:10 »
B) The men in Sodom didn't know the strangers were angels. Here is how they address them:
Gen 19:5 "Where are the men which came in to thee this night?"
Gen 19:8 " only unto these men do nothing"
The Hebrew word used here is for mortal men, male persons. Its indiscriminately used for "men of Sodom", the "man" Lot and the "men" that visited Lot.
The word for angel can be found in Gen 19:1.
It seems quite proper to refer to angels as iysh (men) even if you know they are angels.  The author himself does this in Genesis 19, referring to them as ma'lak in vs.1 and then back to calling them iysh in vs.10.  Other examples of this where a person knew they were talking about an angel but still referred to them as iysh would be Manoah's wife in Judges 13:6 or Daniel referring to Gabriel as iysh in Daniel 9:21.

That does not answer or dispute the statement that the residents of Sodom thought the angels visiting Lot were only mortal men - humans. We have no evidence from a plain reading of the text (without throwing scriptures not yet written into the mix) they had a clue they were angelic.

AVZ

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #101 on: Mon Mar 31, 2014 - 07:32:55 »

B) The men in Sodom didn't know the strangers were angels. Here is how they address them:
Gen 19:5 "Where are the men which came in to thee this night?"
Gen 19:8 " only unto these men do nothing"
The Hebrew word used here is for mortal men, male persons. Its indiscriminately used for "men of Sodom", the "man" Lot and the "men" that visited Lot.
The word for angel can be found in Gen 19:1.
It seems quite proper to refer to angels as iysh (men) even if you know they are angels.  The author himself does this in Genesis 19, referring to them as ma'lak in vs.1 and then back to calling them iysh in vs.10.  Other examples of this where a person knew they were talking about an angel but still referred to them as iysh would be Manoah's wife in Judges 13:6 or Daniel referring to Gabriel as iysh in Daniel 9:21.


I think the author is very consistent in the usage of the word "angel" and "men".
In verse 1 he informs us that angels were sent to Sodom, so that the reader would know that these men were angels.
In verse 5 he informs us how the men of Sodom saw them: men.
What follows is a consistent usage of the word "men".

The question you should ask yourself is why the author would start off using the word "angels" and immediately shifts to the use of "men" in the same chapter, if he did not have a particular reason for it.

After the story with the men of Sodom is over, in verse 15, the author switches back to the use of "angels".

To me the message the author sends to us is the same as we would do in plain English. Where the audience thought the men were angels, he uses the word angels.
Where the audience thought the men were men, he uses the word men.

Offline DaveW

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #102 on: Mon Mar 31, 2014 - 08:55:51 »
Sounds good and right AVZ.

Offline CatHead

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #103 on: Mon Mar 31, 2014 - 18:18:11 »
Hi Dave,
That does not answer or dispute the statement that the residents of Sodom thought the angels visiting Lot were only mortal men - humans. We have no evidence from a plain reading of the text (without throwing scriptures not yet written into the mix) they had a clue they were angelic.
Yes i understand, and agree with you.  If not reading genesis19 from the perspective of Jude1:7 and 2Peter2:10 the reasonable assumption would be that the Sodomites believed the angels to be men.  Reading other witness accounts of the same events however is often necessary to come to the correct understanding of the event though.  I know you understand this because you asked me to to expand my understanding of the sins of Sodom using Ezekiel 16:49,50 (which was not yet written) earlier in this discussion.

I only mention that it is acceptable to refer to angels as iysh in scripture because it allows for the possibility that the Sodomites knew they were angels.  Of course, reading Genesis19 in a vacuum, the fact that the Sodomites referred to the angels as iysh is not proof they knew they were angels.  But it is also not proof that they didn't know, since it is acceptable in scripture to refer to angels as iysh.

When Jude1:7 says plainly that the Sodomite's lust was hetero, it's time to reexamine the 'plain reading' understanding of Genesis 19 though imo.  Jude 1:7 completely eliminates homosexual lust as the sexual sin Sodom was judged for.  So if the actions of the crowd in front of Lot's house is to be used as an indicator of the past behavior that God judged them for, and Jude1:7 eliminates homosexual lust as a possible cause of their judgement, then it becomes clear to me that the Sodomites weren't lusting after Lot's visitors because they believed them to be 'mortal men'. 

Offline CatHead

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Re: The Sin of Sodom was Racism
« Reply #104 on: Mon Mar 31, 2014 - 18:39:12 »
Hi AVZ,
I think the author is very consistent in the usage of the word "angel" and "men".
In verse 1 he informs us that angels were sent to Sodom, so that the reader would know that these men were angels.
In verse 5 he informs us how the men of Sodom saw them: men.
What follows is a consistent usage of the word "men".

The question you should ask yourself is why the author would start off using the word "angels" and immediately shifts to the use of "men" in the same chapter, if he did not have a particular reason for it.

After the story with the men of Sodom is over, in verse 15, the author switches back to the use of "angels".

To me the message the author sends to us is the same as we would do in plain English. Where the audience thought the men were angels, he uses the word angels.
Where the audience thought the men were men, he uses the word men.
In verse 16 ("after the story with the men of Sodom is over") they are again referred to by the author as iysh.  It should be clear that Lot and his family understood the visitors to be angels in verse 16 correct?  This would seem to be troublesome to your theory.  More likely the author referred to them by their proper title for clarity to the reader at points in the story, and as a shorthand version of their title for brevity in the rest of the story, the same as we do in plain English.

 

     
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