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Offline Terral

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The Two Gospels of the New Testament 12.15.2019
« on: Sun Dec 15, 2019 - 09:11:54 »
Greetings to All:       

This thread is dedicated to building a strong doctrinal foundation by carefully examining the differences between the Gospel of the Kingdom; and our Word of the Cross gospel message for today. God gathers members to the Kingdom Bride; (John 3:29) through the first gospel described below and members to the Mystery Body of Christ; through Paul’s Gospel #2 below.
--------------------------
This is NOT our gospel for today. Nobody has been saved by this Gospel message for almost 2000 years.
--------------------------
I. Gospel of the Kingdom (Matt. 4:23, 9:35, 24:14, Acts 8:12). Gospel to the Circumcised. Galatians 2:7.

1. The good news that the kingdom of heaven is at hand; (Matthew 3:2, Matthew 4:17, Matthew 10:7). i.e., preaching the kingdom; Acts 20:25.
2. According to Prophecy; seen by the OT Prophets. Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1.
3. Obtain eternal life by keeping the commandments. Matthew 19:16-17.
4. Water baptism (during confession) for the forgiveness of sins; Mark 1:4, Acts 2:38. (John’s Baptism; Acts 19:3; name of the Father; John 1:6, 33, Matthew 28:19.)
5. Baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus; (Acts 8:16, Acts 19:5),name of the Son; (Matthew 28:19 = my CF.com Baptisms Thread)
6. Receive the Spirit through the baptism in the name of the Holy Spirit; (Matthew 28:19) through the laying of hands (Acts 8:17, Acts 19:6).
7. Justified by works and not by faith alone; James 2:20-24.
8. Kingdom disciples are under Mosaic Law (Matthew 5:18, James 2:10).
--------------------------
This is our gospel for today that many believe is the only gospel of the New Testament with inclusions from Gospel #1. This gospel message was revealed to Paul (Gal. 1:11+12) AFTER his conversion in Acts 9. Note that Christ preached the Gospel of God; in Mark 1:14-15, which is gospel #1 above.
--------------------------
II. Paul’s my gospel; (Romans 2:16, Romans 16:25, etc.). Gospel to the Uncircumcised. Galatians 2:7.

1. The Gospel of the Grace of God. Acts 20:24.
2. According to the revelation of the Mystery; NOT seen by the OT prophets. Romans 16:25.
3. Saved by God’s grace through faith APART from works. Ephesians 2:8-9.
4. Sins forgiven through the redemption IN Christ (Romans 3:24) and His shed blood (Ephesians 1:7).
5. Our one baptism (Ephesians 4:5) is done by the one Spirit; (Ephesians 4:4) into the one body; (1Corinthians 12:13), which is into Christ’s body; 1Corinthians 12:27.
6. We receive the Spirit when hearing (Romans 10:17*) and believing (Ephesians 1:13-14) Paul’s Gospel by hearing with faith; Galatians 3:2.
7. We are justified by faith apart from works. Romans 4:4-6.
8. We are under grace and not under law. Romans 6:14.

The two-gospels hypothesis says that God sent John the Baptist, Jesus Christ and the Twelve in three separate ministries to preach the “Gospel of the Kingdom” starting with John the Baptist who came first as Elijah (Matt. 11:14) to fulfill OT prophecy (Mal. 3:1+, 4:5-6). John the Baptist received the Holy Spirit while in his mother’s womb (Luke 1:15) by way of his father Zacharias who was chosen “by lot” (Luke 1:9) to go behind the second veil on the Day of Atonement. Jesus Christ took the Holy Spirit baton from John the Baptist in the Jordan River (Matt. 3:1+), when Christ began to “increase” and John “decreased.” John 3:29-30. Jesus Christ preached the “Gospel of the Kingdom” far and wide to pass the Holy Spirit (Helper) baton to the Disciples on the Day of Pentecost, after making the plan known, saying:

Quote
“But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.” John 16:7-11.

 

The left side of the color-coded Prophecy / Mystery Timeline finds “John the Baptist” (Elijah) stepping through the “Second Veil” that separates the Old Testament as the “Holy of Holies” of God’s Living Word. John preaches the Gospel of the Kingdom in the Father’s ministry followed by Jesus Christ doing the same thing under the Son’s ministry. Christ must leave to begin the Book of Acts (Acts 1:9-11), so that He could then send the Helper (Holy Spirit) back to begin preaching the “good news about the kingdom of God” (Acts 8:12) under the Ministry of the Holy Spirit. Israel allowed John the Baptist to die in prison (Matt. 14:10) and Israel demanded Christ’s crucifixion (Matt. 27:22-23), but Israel would murder Stephen (name means “Crown”) using their own hands (Acts 7:54-60) to commit the “transgression” (Rom. 11:11) that Christ warned about concerning the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (Matt. 12:30-32).

The Apostle Paul (Saul) was raised up in response to Steven’s murder and saved by God’s grace through faith apart from works on the road to Damascus in Acts 9 to become a  “chosen instrument of Mine” (Acts 9:15) to be given our gospel for today (Gospel of the Grace of God) via “a revelation of Jesus Christ:
Quote
“For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.” Galatians 1:11-12.

God tricked Satan into killing Jesus Christ by offering the “Gospel of the Kingdom” to Israel and Jesus Christ as the King. Satan stopped the kingdom from becoming a reality 2000 years ago, but God’s Plan all along kept hidden “in” Him was to raise Jesus Christ from the dead “and” us with Him part of the “Mystery of Christ” taught exclusively in the Pauline Epistles to the Gentiles. Do you see just one good news message preached in the New Testament, or do you see two? Good luck in the debate. Terral

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: The Two Gospels of the New Testament 12.15.2019
« Reply #1 on: Sun Dec 15, 2019 - 17:47:30 »
Terral,
They're the same gospel. It's just that since people rarely speak about the gospel of the Kingdom, they don't know how the two aspects work together

Offline Yeshua153

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Re: The Two Gospels of the New Testament 12.15.2019
« Reply #2 on: Mon Dec 16, 2019 - 07:24:11 »
I'm trying to work out your timeline chart. I'm assuming we are in the blue part, awaiting the 7yr tribulation. Are you saying the return of Christ is at the start, or the end of 7yrs? Also you have the yellow new heavens & earth after, is that you believing in a 1000yr reign after? One more thing, what do you think is the baptism we have?

I will say my belief, with baptism first, as it goes back to refer to the flood. I believe the last 2000yrs since Acts 2, it is spiritual blood baptism   
as defined by the 2 words that make up baptise, which has been anglicised, from baptizo & bapto, which means to cover (atone) with stain or dye (blood). This has the same meaning as Gen 6v14
  "Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch."
The 1st pitch is kopher-to cover (atone) & 2nd pitch is Kaphar-stain or dye. In this case, probably a red henna bitumen. When the flood came, that was the judgement, they were saved through water, not with water, the caulking of the ark, with the pitch (baptism), is what saved the 8 of them. This was in 1Pet 3v20-21
while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Blood baptism is a daily death to self (resurrection), & to increase by faith, in our inner man, by His Spirit. Water baptism was only to become a citizen of Israel, a proselyte process that the eunuch did with Philip.
I will have to come back, for the other points.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Two Gospels of the New Testament 12.15.2019
« Reply #3 on: Mon Dec 16, 2019 - 09:55:44 »
Greetings to All:       

This thread is dedicated to building a strong doctrinal foundation by carefully examining the differences between the Gospel of the Kingdom; and our Word of the Cross gospel message for today. God gathers members to the Kingdom Bride; (John 3:29) through the first gospel described below and members to the Mystery Body of Christ; through Paul’s Gospel #2 below.
--------------------------
This is NOT our gospel for today. Nobody has been saved by this Gospel message for almost 2000 years.
--------------------------
I. Gospel of the Kingdom (Matt. 4:23, 9:35, 24:14, Acts 8:12). Gospel to the Circumcised. Galatians 2:7.

1. The good news that the kingdom of heaven is at hand; (Matthew 3:2, Matthew 4:17, Matthew 10:7). i.e., preaching the kingdom; Acts 20:25.
2. According to Prophecy; seen by the OT Prophets. Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1.
3. Obtain eternal life by keeping the commandments. Matthew 19:16-17.
4. Water baptism (during confession) for the forgiveness of sins; Mark 1:4, Acts 2:38. (John’s Baptism; Acts 19:3; name of the Father; John 1:6, 33, Matthew 28:19.)
5. Baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus; (Acts 8:16, Acts 19:5),name of the Son; (Matthew 28:19 = my CF.com Baptisms Thread)
6. Receive the Spirit through the baptism in the name of the Holy Spirit; (Matthew 28:19) through the laying of hands (Acts 8:17, Acts 19:6).
7. Justified by works and not by faith alone; James 2:20-24.
8. Kingdom disciples are under Mosaic Law (Matthew 5:18, James 2:10).
--------------------------
This is our gospel for today that many believe is the only gospel of the New Testament with inclusions from Gospel #1. This gospel message was revealed to Paul (Gal. 1:11+12) AFTER his conversion in Acts 9. Note that Christ preached the Gospel of God; in Mark 1:14-15, which is gospel #1 above.
--------------------------
II. Paul’s my gospel; (Romans 2:16, Romans 16:25, etc.). Gospel to the Uncircumcised. Galatians 2:7.

1. The Gospel of the Grace of God. Acts 20:24.
2. According to the revelation of the Mystery; NOT seen by the OT prophets. Romans 16:25.
3. Saved by God’s grace through faith APART from works. Ephesians 2:8-9.
4. Sins forgiven through the redemption IN Christ (Romans 3:24) and His shed blood (Ephesians 1:7).
5. Our one baptism (Ephesians 4:5) is done by the one Spirit; (Ephesians 4:4) into the one body; (1Corinthians 12:13), which is into Christ’s body; 1Corinthians 12:27.
6. We receive the Spirit when hearing (Romans 10:17*) and believing (Ephesians 1:13-14) Paul’s Gospel by hearing with faith; Galatians 3:2.
7. We are justified by faith apart from works. Romans 4:4-6.
8. We are under grace and not under law. Romans 6:14.

The two-gospels hypothesis says that God sent John the Baptist, Jesus Christ and the Twelve in three separate ministries to preach the “Gospel of the Kingdom” starting with John the Baptist who came first as Elijah (Matt. 11:14) to fulfill OT prophecy (Mal. 3:1+, 4:5-6). John the Baptist received the Holy Spirit while in his mother’s womb (Luke 1:15) by way of his father Zacharias who was chosen “by lot” (Luke 1:9) to go behind the second veil on the Day of Atonement. Jesus Christ took the Holy Spirit baton from John the Baptist in the Jordan River (Matt. 3:1+), when Christ began to “increase” and John “decreased.” John 3:29-30. Jesus Christ preached the “Gospel of the Kingdom” far and wide to pass the Holy Spirit (Helper) baton to the Disciples on the Day of Pentecost, after making the plan known, saying:

 

The left side of the color-coded Prophecy / Mystery Timeline finds “John the Baptist” (Elijah) stepping through the “Second Veil” that separates the Old Testament as the “Holy of Holies” of God’s Living Word. John preaches the Gospel of the Kingdom in the Father’s ministry followed by Jesus Christ doing the same thing under the Son’s ministry. Christ must leave to begin the Book of Acts (Acts 1:9-11), so that He could then send the Helper (Holy Spirit) back to begin preaching the “good news about the kingdom of God” (Acts 8:12) under the Ministry of the Holy Spirit. Israel allowed John the Baptist to die in prison (Matt. 14:10) and Israel demanded Christ’s crucifixion (Matt. 27:22-23), but Israel would murder Stephen (name means “Crown”) using their own hands (Acts 7:54-60) to commit the “transgression” (Rom. 11:11) that Christ warned about concerning the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (Matt. 12:30-32).

The Apostle Paul (Saul) was raised up in response to Steven’s murder and saved by God’s grace through faith apart from works on the road to Damascus in Acts 9 to become a  “chosen instrument of Mine” (Acts 9:15) to be given our gospel for today (Gospel of the Grace of God) via “a revelation of Jesus Christ:
God tricked Satan into killing Jesus Christ by offering the “Gospel of the Kingdom” to Israel and Jesus Christ as the King. Satan stopped the kingdom from becoming a reality 2000 years ago, but God’s Plan all along kept hidden “in” Him was to raise Jesus Christ from the dead “and” us with Him part of the “Mystery of Christ” taught exclusively in the Pauline Epistles to the Gentiles. Do you see just one good news message preached in the New Testament, or do you see two? Good luck in the debate. Terral
Your theology is really convoluted.  What a mess.

You believe that God had multiple plans - do you believe that God's first plan just failed, then?  Do you believe that God changed His mind?  God says that He doesn't change.  There are a lot of problems with this that spring to mind.

But mostly... what I really, really dislike about this is how it de-emphasizes Christ, and makes Paul the central figure.  I question whether this even qualifies as Christianity anymore.  It may actually be closer to the Marcionite heresy than it is to Christianity.

Jarrod

Offline Terral

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Re: The Two Gospels of the New Testament 12.15.2019
« Reply #4 on: Mon Dec 16, 2019 - 10:41:19 »
Hi E.R.M.:

Thank you for writing on The Two Gospels topic: You wrote:

Quote
Terral, They're the same gospel. It's just that since people rarely speak about the gospel of the Kingdom, they don't know how the two aspects work together

First, let us agree that we are deliberating "doctrine" (didache: #1322 and didaskalia: #1319) and particularly the doctrine of salvation taught using doctrinal precepts. The bottom line here is that the "Gospel of the Kingdom" (#1) and the "Gospel of the Grace of God" (#2) are taught using directly opposing doctrinal precepts, which means they cannot possibly be the same thing. Let's go back to the beginning in Mark 1 and note what both John the Baptist and Jesus Christ are preaching.

Quote
"John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins." Mark 1:4+5.

"Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” Mark 1:14-15.

We know from Matthew 3:2 and 4:17 that both John the Baptist and Jesus Christ are preaching, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." This is precisely what we see under doctrinal precept #1 teaching the Gospel of the Kingdom from the OP that is Gospel #1. However, what we do not see is any evidence in Mark 1 nor Matthew 3 or 4 that Jesus Christ has died for anybody. The essence of the "Gospel of the Grace of God" says:

Quote
"Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve." 1Corinthians 15:1-5.

The Gospel of the Kingdom (#1 from OP) teaches a doctrine of salvation where converts respond by confessing their sins while being baptized in water for the forgiveness of their sins (precept #4). The Gospel of the Grace of God (#2) teaches a doctrine of salvation where converts have sins forgiven through Christ's shed blood (precept #4). An interesting element of Jesus Christ's "ministries" is understood from a passage from 1John 5, saying,

Quote
"This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement." 1John 5:6.




This diagram from my book The Mystery Explained illustrates how God's Living Word (Fig 1, with spirit, soul and body) is laid out in the same pattern as the Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple (Fig.2) with all three having a witness of spirit (Old Testament, Holy of Holies), blood (Pauline Epistles, Holy Place) and water (Kingdom New Testament, Court). God's Living Word uses the number 13 (number of the steward, i.e., the Twelve with Christ in the center) with 39 books in the OT (3x13 = spirit, blood, water enfolded into one), 13 books in the Pauline Epistles (blood witness of the Scriptures) and 13 Kingdom books (Matt. - John, Hebrews - Revelation). The Book of Acts testifies as the "First Veil" having both blood (Mystery/Grace for Body) and water (Kingdom/Law for Bride) qualities.

Jesus Christ is the "Lord God" of Genesis 2:4+ who sent "My messenger" (Malachi 3:1, Matthew 11:10) to clear the way preaching the "Gospel of the Kingdom" in fulfillment of Old Testament "Prophecy." Jesus Christ followed John the Baptist preaching the "Gospel of the Kingdom" part of God's Plan to trick the devil and his minions into murdering the King. The Disciples picked up the Holy Spirit baton from Jesus Christ at Pentecost to begin preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom by the ministry of the Holy Spirit in spirit (John-Father), blood (Jesus-Son), and water (Disciples-Holy Spirit) fashion, until Israel committed the "transgression" (Rom. 11:11) by blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. God then raised up Paul on the road to Damascus to give him our gospel of today:

Quote
"For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ." Galatians 1:11-12.

Paul characterizes this "gospel which I preach among the Gentiles" (Gal. 2:2) as the "gospel to the uncircumcised," while Peter's Gospel of the Kingdom is characterized as "to the circumcised." Galatians 2:7. The Gospel to the Uncircumcised is our "Gospel of the Grace of God" part of Christ's "blood" ministry, as opposed to Peter's gospel "to the circumcised" characterized as "preaching the kingdom" from the same passage [my notes]:

Quote
"But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the ministry [blood] which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God. And now, behold, I know that all of you, among whom I went about preaching the kingdom [water ministry], will no longer see my face. Therefore, I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God." Acts 20:24-27.

The "whole purpose of God" includes calling a kingdom of priests (Kingdom Bride #1 = water ministry) for providing intercession of all heavenly hosts "and" a body of rulers/judges (Grace Body #2 = blood ministry) for judging the world and the angels (1Cor. 6:2-3) as members of Christ's Body. One defining characteristic regarding Christ's two ministries is that sins are forgiven by water for the "Gospel of the Kingdom," while God forgives us sins today by obeying the "Gospel of the Grace of God" through Christ's shed blood.

Blessings,

Terral

Offline Terral

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Re: The Two Gospels of the New Testament 12.15.2019
« Reply #5 on: Mon Dec 16, 2019 - 11:23:21 »
Hi Yeshua153:

Thank you for writing on the Two Gospels topic. You wrote.

Quote
Yeshua153: I'm trying to work out your timeline chart. I'm assuming we are in the blue part, awaiting the 7yr tribulation. Are you saying the return of Christ is at the start, or the end of 7yrs?




We are currently moving towards the end of the "Mystery Time" (in red) containing the "Dispensation of God's Grace" (Eph. 3:2). We preach Paul's Gospel, or the "Gospel of the Grace of God" given to him via a "revelation of Jesus Christ." Galatians 1:11-12. When you ask about "the return of Christ," are you referring to His mystery (unseen: 1Cor. 15:51-55) coming for the Body of Christ (1Thes. 4:15-17), or are you asking about when the Lord returns at the "end of the age" from Matthew 24:29-31? Christ comes for "us" (Body of Christ) to start the upcoming "Day of the Lord" shown in blue where you see "Rapture-Body" and "Elijah Appears to Restore All Things." Christ's visible return on the clouds takes place over on the far right where you see "Seven Years (Tribulation)," when we (Body of Christ) return with Him in great glory. As it is written [my notes],

Quote
"Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed [Matt. 24], then you also will be revealed with Him in glory." Colossians 3:1-4.

The simple truth is that the Holy Spirit delivers us to the Lord, so we can "meet the Lord in the air" (1Thes. 4:17), so that we can then return with Him in greatly glory at the end of the age.

Quote
Yeshua153: Also you have the yellow new heavens & earth after, is that you believing in a 1000yr reign after?

The 1000-Year Day of the Lord runs from Revelation 1 to Revelation 20:15 with the new age coming in Revelation 21:1+. The Lamb is reigning from the "center of the throne" (Rev. 7:17) in "heaven." Jesus Christ is the "Lord God" from the Old Testament where "Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool." Isaiah 66:1.


Quote
Yeshua153 One more thing, what do you think is the baptism we have? [snip]

Yeshua153! First we deliberate the Two Gospels and Two Churches of the New Testament. Then we move to the Four Baptisms of the New Testament that will be posted later today. :0)

Thank you again for writing on the Two Gospels topic.

Blessings,

Terral


Offline Terral

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Re: The Two Gospels of the New Testament 12.15.2019
« Reply #6 on: Mon Dec 16, 2019 - 13:00:27 »
Hi Jarrod:

Thank you for writing on the Two Gospels topic. You wrote

Quote
Jarrod: Your theology is really convoluted. What a mess.

Please "quote >>" anything from the OP that appears off and present your counterargument supported by Scripture. Scripture clearly shows John the Baptist and Jesus Christ preaching the "Gospel of the Kingdom" (Matt. 4:23, 9:35, etc.) and we preach the "Gospel of the Grace of God" today. John the Baptist and Jesus Christ did not preach salvation by God's grace through faith in the blood of Jesus Christ in Mark 1. Right? Perhaps a good idea would be for you to lay out the doctrinal precepts teaching the Gospel of the Kingdom preached "before" Christ's crucifixion and the good news message preached by Paul as the "gospel of the grace of God" from Acts 20:24-27. We can see the two gospel messages mentioned in the same passage. Let's take a look at those verses for evidence:

Quote
"But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God (#2 from OP). And now, behold, I know that all of you, among whom I went about preaching the kingdom [Gospel of the Kingdom #1 from OP], will no longer see my face. Therefore, I testify to you this day that I am [p]innocent of the blood of all men. For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God." Acts 20:24-27.

Scripture says that "the whole purpose of God" includes Paul preaching the "gospel of the grace of God" AND "preaching the kingdom," even if preaching the kingdom was decreasing and the gospel of the grace of god is increasing.

Quote
Jarrod: You believe that God had multiple plans - do you believe that God's first plan just failed, then?


As we just saw from Acts 20, the "whole purpose of God" includes preaching the kingdom AND preaching the gospel of the grace of God. No. God's first plan all along was for Eve to commit the "transgression" (1Tim. 2:14) and God's Plan included Israel also committing "transgression" (Rom. 11:11) in the same way. Think everything through carefully to realize God had to keep everything connected to "the mystery" (Eph. 3:2; musterion #3466) hidden inside Himself, because giving this information to the OT Prophets would allow the devil and his minions to know and they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory.

Quote
"Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory...". 1Cor. 2:6-8.
 

God first sent John the Baptist, Christ and the Twelve to preach the "Gospel of the Kingdom" that Israel rejected by allowing John to die in prison, by demanding Christ's crucifixion, and by murdering Stephen (Acts 6+7) using their own hands. God then raised up Saul-Paul to give him our gospel for today via "a revelation of Jesus Christ" (Gal. 1:11-12). We will be taken (1Thes. 4:15-17) to start the coming Day of the Lord for the Holy Spirit to return and fall upon Elijah who will preach the "Gospel of the Kingdom" (Matt. 24:14] to the end of the age.

Quote
Jarrod: Do you believe that God changed His mind?  God says that He doesn't change.


Perhaps a good idea would be to start a topic on God changing His mind, which has nothing to do with The Two Gospels of the New Testament. John the Baptist, Christ and the Twelve preach the "Gospel of the Kingdom" to start the Four Gospels and some like Peter, John and James were called while the rest were hardened. As it is written [my notes]:

Quote
"What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen [Peter, John, James, Cornelius, etc.] obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, Eyes to see not and ears to hear not, Down to this very day.”

And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap, And a stumbling block and a retribution to them. “Let their eyes be darkened to see not, And bend their backs forever.”

I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous." Romans 11:7-11.


God's Plan is coming along just fine, even if some are still figuring out the details about the "whole purpose of God." Acts 20:24-27.


Quote
Jarrod: There are a lot of problems with this that spring to mind.

Not at all. So far, you have "quoted >>" nothing from the OP, and offered no Scriptural support of anything, allowing every word to remain standing by default. Again, please quote anything that appears off and present your case using Scripture and I will read your rebuttal and offer clarifying statements, if your reply appears worthy of a reply.

Quote
Jarrod: But mostly... what I really, really dislike about this is how it de-emphasizes Christ, and makes Paul the central figure.
 

Presenting the doctrinal precepts teaching the Gospel of the Kingdom "and" the Gospel of the Grace of God in no way makes Paul anything other than the steward of this current "Dispensation of God's Grace." The Lord God gave the Prophets and the Law through Moses in Old Testament times. Right? Did the Lord's selection of Moses to dispense the Law place Moses over the Lord God through whom the Law was given?? No. There is only one person in the entire Bible that the Lord characterizes as, the "chosen instrument of Mine" to Ananias who also failed to recognize the importance of Paul and his position as the steward:

Quote
"But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings ["Gospel of the Grace of God"] and the sons of Israel ["preaching the kingdom"]; for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name’s sake.” Acts 9:15-16.

God's Word includes the accounts of Paul's conversion three times in the Book of Acts (Acts 9, 22, 26) for good reasons and none of those reasons place this Pharisee-Roman Citizen (type of Body of Christ) above our Lord Jesus Christ. Scripture says clearly that Paul's "my gospel" is "according to the revelation of the mystery" (Rom. 16:25). We see Paul refuting Peter at the famous Meeting in Jerusalem (Acts 15/Gal. 2) over the "truth of the gospel" (Gal. 2:14), because Peter did not understand the "gospel to the circumcised" (Gal. 2:7), as he warns about distorting the "wisdom given him" (Paul), saying,

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"Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him [the mystery, Eph. 3:3], wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction." 2Peter 3:14-16.

Since Peter and the Scriptures issue warnings about distorting the "wisdom given him" (Paul) and the Gospel of the Grace of God was received by "a revelation of Jesus Christ" (Gal. 1:11-12), then we are wise to pay careful attention and get the doctrinal precepts right. Wouldn't you agree?

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Jarrod: I question whether this even qualifies as Christianity anymore.  It may actually be closer to the Marcionite heresy than it is to Christianity. Jarrod

Sticks and stones,  Jarrod. I do believe that ad hominem attacks are against the rules. There are more than 20,000 denominations of professing Christians (info) and about that many different interpretations of one truth. You present yours and I will present mine and everyone else can decide (1Cor. 11:19) if either is approved or not.

Anybody reading this thread can see my OP and each reply is filled with statement supported by God's Word, whether you agree with my interpretations or not. The interesting part about your verbal attacks made in this single post is that zero is offered in the way of an argument for or against the OP presentation, and my debating opponent is ready to make me into a heretic. Generally, the name calling begins when one side is out of arguments and your active participation in the deliberations disqualifies you from being our judge.

Blessings,

Terral
« Last Edit: Mon Dec 16, 2019 - 13:08:16 by Terral »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Two Gospels of the New Testament 12.15.2019
« Reply #7 on: Mon Dec 16, 2019 - 13:51:04 »
I understand that you are eager to drag someone into a debate about the minutia of what you said, but I'm not going to invest a lot of time on this.  It's like debating the JW's or any other cult for me.  I've done it before, but I don't really stand to learn much from the interaction, and it's doubtful that you're going to change your view.  For me, it would mostly be a lot of time spent pointing out that your interpretation of various words and verses is whacked, and the plain-sense reading of the verse is correct.  ::shrug::

Now I suppose you're going to turn these 5 sentences into another dissertation.  ::noworries::

P.S. You might want to look up ad hominem.  I do not think this word means what you think it means.

Offline Terral

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Re: The Two Gospels of the New Testament 12.15.2019
« Reply #8 on: Mon Dec 16, 2019 - 15:07:45 »
Hi Jarrod:

Thank you for writing on the Two Gospels topic. You wrote:

Quote
Jarrod. I understand that you are eager to drag someone into a debate about the minutia of what you said, but I'm not going to invest a lot of time on this.  It's like debating the JW's or any other cult for me.
 

Not at all. Let's revisit what has been shared on my topic and look for signs of any debate:

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Your theology is really convoluted.  What a mess.

You believe that God had multiple plans - do you believe that God's first plan just failed, then?  Do you believe that God changed His mind?  God says that He doesn't change.  There are a lot of problems with this that spring to mind.

But mostly... what I really, really dislike about this is how it de-emphasizes Christ, and makes Paul the central figure.  I question whether this even qualifies as Christianity anymore.  It may actually be closer to the Marcionite heresy than it is to Christianity. Jarrod


There is no attempt on your side to debate anything. You decided to attack me personally with nonsense and move the thread when you had no argument at all. If Jarrod does not understand the substance of what is being shared, then the topic is Non-Traditional.

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I've done it before, but I don't really stand to learn much from the interaction, and it's doubtful that you're going to change your view.  For me, it would mostly be a lot of time spent pointing out that your interpretation of various words and verses is whacked, and the plain-sense reading of the verse is correct.  ::shrug::

Now I suppose you're going to turn these 5 sentences into another dissertation.  ::noworries::

P.S. You might want to look up ad hominem.  I do not think this word means what you think it means.


This thread is entitled "The Two Gospels of the New Testament" and a topic that has been posted in the Theology Forum since November 2006 (link). You insisted that I start the topic again, which I did with this new OP thread. Then, you attack me rather than the topic providing a bad example for everybody reading these topics. These statements of yours say much more about you and how authority is misused around here than anything to do with me. I will start my topics in the sub-Forum from now on in obedience to these new wishes. Please do us a favor and moderate from a neutral corner, or take off your admin hat and actually engage members of this board in real debate using Scripture without the personal attacks. Thank you in advance.

Terral


Offline skeeter

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Re: The Two Gospels of the New Testament 12.15.2019
« Reply #9 on: Mon Dec 16, 2019 - 19:46:04 »
This diagram from my book The Mystery Explained illustrates how God's Living Word (Fig 1, with spirit, soul and body) is laid out in the same pattern as the Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple (Fig.2) with all three having a witness of spirit (Old Testament, Holy of Holies), blood (Pauline Epistles, Holy Place) and water (Kingdom New Testament, Court).
Did you write the book 'The Mystery Explained'?

Is the diagram you posted also your work?



Offline NorrinRadd

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Re: The Two Gospels of the New Testament 12.15.2019
« Reply #10 on: Mon Dec 16, 2019 - 21:09:10 »
Excuse my rudeness (or don't, it matters not to me), but -- You posted a bunch of this same "Two Gospels" and similar weirdness almost exactly 13 years ago, then AFAICT totally disappeared from here until now.

Did you decide to take another holiday break from your medications?

Offline Yeshua153

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Re: The Two Gospels of the New Testament 12.15.2019
« Reply #11 on: Mon Dec 16, 2019 - 21:25:59 »


Yeshua153! First we deliberate the Two Gospels and Two Churches of the New Testament. Then we move to the Four Baptisms of the New Testament that will be posted later today. :0)


[/quote]

Hopefully you can then answer about any differences you have, against my explanation of baptism.

Your mystery timeline chart doesn't state any times, other than 70AD, which does make your presentation a 'mystery'.

I believe Christ comes at the last (7th) trump, at the end of the 7yr tribulation. I don't believe in a 1000yr reign after, as it is chilia in Rev 20, & is plural, meaning at least 2000yrs. I believe we have been in the 2000yr millennium since Acts 2, as Christ indicates the end of time in Rev10v6 "that time should no longer be", & the v7 "the mystery of God would be finished", when the last of God's elect family joins the flock. Church complete, sin done away with, & into eternity.
The new heaven & earth of Rev 21 is not this mathematical 12x city that falls from the sky, it is symbolic of heavenly spiritual Jerusalem in our heart, & refers to spiritual Israel, much like the 144000 is also symbolic of the church. As Heb 10v1 says;
 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things.
OT the shadow, NT very image.
The church is spiritual Israel, I am a spiritual jew (as a gentile) & the 2 witnesses, as Rev 1v6 says;
made us kings and priests to His God and Father.

I know I go off on a tangent, but you get the gist.

Offline RB

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Re: The Two Gospels of the New Testament 12.15.2019
« Reply #12 on: Tue Dec 17, 2019 - 02:51:47 »
I have been dealing with one named GB~not sure if I want to deal with another "wandering star"......a cloud without water! per the apostle Jude. But I would if it may help another believer who may be confused by such men.

Offline Terral

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Re: The Two Gospels of the New Testament 12.15.2019
« Reply #13 on: Tue Dec 17, 2019 - 07:57:28 »
Hi Skeeter:

Thank you for writing on the Two Gospels topic. You wrote:

Quote
Skeeter: Did you write the book 'The Mystery Explained'? Is the diagram you posted also your work?

Yes and yes. The Mystery Explained was originally written in 2005 and was recently published in November 2017.

Blessings,

Terral

Offline Terral

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Re: The Two Gospels of the New Testament 12.15.2019
« Reply #14 on: Tue Dec 17, 2019 - 08:02:31 »
Hi Hero:

Thank you for writing. You wrote:

Quote
Hero: Excuse my rudeness (or don't, it matters not to me), but -- You posted a bunch of this same "Two Gospels" and similar weirdness almost exactly 13 years ago, then AFAICT totally disappeared from here until now.

Did you decide to take another holiday break from your medications?

Please write again when ready to deliberate the Two Gospels topic using Scripture without the juvenile attacks.

Blessings,

Terral

Offline Terral

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Re: The Two Gospels of the New Testament 12.15.2019
« Reply #15 on: Tue Dec 17, 2019 - 08:10:12 »
Hi Yeshua153:

Thank you for writing on the Two Gospels topic. You wrote:
Quote
Yeshua153: Hopefully you can then answer about any differences you have, against my explanation of baptism.


http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/non-traditional-theology/the-four-baptisms-of-the-new-testament-12-16-2019/

Here is the correct Opening Post laying out the precepts teaching the Four Baptisms of the New Testament. This thread is about the Two Gospels of the New Testament if you want to quote from the Opening Post and write on this topic. Please direct me to your thread containing your explanation of baptism and I will check things out.

Blessings,

Terral

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Two Gospels of the New Testament 12.15.2019
« Reply #16 on: Tue Dec 17, 2019 - 10:48:43 »
You decided to attack me personally.

I think your theology is garbage, but I haven't attacked you.  I don't know you.

This thread is entitled "The Two Gospels of the New Testament" and a topic that has been posted in the Theology Forum since November 2006 (link). You insisted that I start the topic again, which I did with this new OP thread.

Yes I did.  When a thread has been dead for years, and someone attempts to re-open it, we refer to that as a zombie thread.  Moderators typically kill zombie threads and let the person know that they can re-start the topic if they'd like.  This is SOP.

Jarrod

 

     
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