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Offline eph3nine

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Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« on: Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 11:30:46 »


How It's Special
 
Some might argue that Paul and Peter's Gospels were the same and the only difference in their mission was the audience. However, a close reading of the Book of Acts and Paul's letters will show that the messages were also different.

The Jewish disciples in Israel had to obey the law of Moses andall the teachings that Christ gave to the disciples while He ministered on earth (Matthew 28:20).Not so for the world's Gentiles and the Jews outside Israel who responded to Paul's Gospel of Grace. Paul spent the rest of his life explaining the differences between his Gospel and that of the Jewish disciples. Both groups worshipped the same Lord, but they followed Him in different Dispensations.



The word "dispensation" is the Greek word oikonomia. It translates as "household management." It is the position, work, responsibility, commission or arrangement of an administration. Paul used the word for the "management" or "administration" of a spiritual household or economy.

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Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« on: Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 11:30:46 »

Offline eph3nine

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #1 on: Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 11:39:22 »
"Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of his power. Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make plain to everyone the was given to me for you,administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things."

(Ephesians 3:2-9)

"Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness--the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." (Colossians 1:24-26)

"And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ." (Ephesians 1:9-10)

"If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me ." (1 Corinthians 9:17)

"As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith." (1 Timothy 1:3-4) We learn from Paul's teachings that a spiritual "dispensation" or "administration" comes from God. He is the Chief Administrator. Paul was an assistant administrator carrying out God's wishes.

 God worked differently with the Gentiles through Paul than with the Jews through Peter, James and John. The rules were different. The goals and objectives were different.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #2 on: Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 11:47:19 »
Quote
God worked differently with the Gentiles through Paul than with the Jews through Peter, James and John. The rules were different. The goals and objectives were different.

OK - IN YOUR OPINION: what is the eternal status (in heaven or in hell) for the 3000 that came to faith in Yeshua/Jesus in Acts 2?  They were all Jews. Peter was a Jew.  Or the "tens of thousands" in the Jerusalem congregation under James in Acts 21?  They were all Jews.

IOW - is what you call "Peter's Gospel" a salvic (in the eternal sense) message?

Offline eph3nine

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 11:58:29 »
Quote
God worked differently with the Gentiles through Paul than with the Jews through Peter, James and John. The rules were different. The goals and objectives were different.

OK - then what is the eternal status (in heaven or in hell) for the 3000 that came to faith in Yeshua/Jesus in Acts 2?  They were all Jews. Peter was a Jew.

IOW - is what you call "Peter's Gospel" a salvic (in the eternal sense) message?

Since Israel was promised an EARTHLY Kingdom with REAL property and a REAL King, they will inherit THOSE promises. Israel was  never promised Heaven. Are they saved? Yes, if they believed what God told THEM to believe under their agreement with Him. They were to believe that Jesus in His earthly ministry was the prophesied Messiah and King. They are what the Bible calls "the little flock." ALL of Israel was to believe and since they did NOT, God set His dealings with them ASIDE temporarily and began what was KEPT SECRET and HID IN GOD until due time..a plan that He put into place before the world began but kept Hidden, the Scriptures tell us.

God created Heaven AND earth. Both of these realms were usurped by Satan. The Bible is the story of how God will re establish His rightful rule and reign in BOTH of these realms. Israel has to do with the EARTHLY realm, and we as the church which is His body, have to do with the Heavenly realm. Each has separate and distinct promises and purposes which God has laid out in His Word.  Our Bibles really are not separated by OT/NT. Those titles were put there by the publishers of the Bibles. The real division is PROPHECY/Mystery.

Gen thru mid Acts = God dealing with the Nation of Israel under the law/PROPHECY/also called times PAST.

Romans thru Philemon= God dealing with the church which is His BODY under grace/Mystery/also called BUT NOW (Eph 2)

Hebrews thru Rev.= God resuming His program with the Nation Israel back under the law/Prophecy/also called ages to COME.


The only part dealing with Christianity is Pauls epistles, without which, you would have a totally JEWISH book.

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 13:01:47 »


How It's Special
 
Some might argue that Paul and Peter's Gospels were the same and the only difference in their mission was the audience. However, a close reading of the Book of Acts and Paul's letters will show that the messages were also different.

The Jewish disciples in Israel had to obey the law of Moses andall the teachings that Christ gave to the disciples while He ministered on earth (Matthew 28:20).Not so for the world's Gentiles and the Jews outside Israel who responded to Paul's Gospel of Grace. Paul spent the rest of his life explaining the differences between his Gospel and that of the Jewish disciples. Both groups worshipped the same Lord, but they followed Him in different Dispensations.



The word "dispensation" is the Greek word oikonomia. It translates as "household management." It is the position, work, responsibility, commission or arrangement of an administration. Paul used the word for the "management" or "administration" of a spiritual household or economy.

I agree with C.R. Stam on one thing.  A dispensation is a dealing, and God has dealt with mankind in various ways.  From Adam to Noah to Abraham to Moses to Christ, mankind has been saved by faith but the difference has been the content of the believer's faith.   There has been a progressive revelation made to mankind.  But, now we have a canon of Scripture.  We know the very beggining and we know the very end of God's plan.  It is not a mystery and it should not be made into some childish game like the Abbott and Costello skit of Who's On First?  We know who was on every base and we know what they knew. 

Dispensationalism falls flat at the end.  It runs out of gas.  Dispensationalism is progressive up to a point, and then it becomes regressive.  It insists that Christ did not nail the requirements of the Law to the cross but the Law must put back in place and animal sacrifices must be reinstated. 

I'm going to be pretty blunt here and some may not like it.  God is saving us in spite of our stupidity and only because of our faith in Christ.  Judaism is a dead religious system and God looks past it like He looks past Denominationalism with Baptists, Restorationists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Catholics, Pentecostals, etc.   We will have no excuse.  We know Who Christ is; We know What He did; and We know Why He did it.  This is what we must put our faith in and that is what saves us.   This other stuff is not making one group more acceptable over another.  A SOF is just a SOF.  Berean on the building vs. Baptist makes no difference. 

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 13:01:47 »



notreligus

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #5 on: Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 13:06:30 »
How many of you believe that the Church was not in place until fourteen years after Paul was saved?

Offline DaveW

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #6 on: Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 13:12:21 »
Quote
The only part dealing with Christianity is Paul's epistles, without which, you would have a totally JEWISH book.

Actually, since Paul was himself Jewish (and in Acts 28 testified that he not only kept the Law but also the Oral Tradition (customs of our fathers - v 17), and the leadership of the congregations he started had Jewish men (remember he always started in the synagogues) and God Fearers, I would submit that even Paul's letters are "Jewish."

That means the WHOLE BOOK is Jewish.

Offline BlackSepulcher

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #7 on: Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 13:35:40 »
Paul's gospel is special because, quite simply, Paul was an extraordinary saint with an extraordinary enlightenment. If you look into the history and events of Paul, it is quite inspiring.

I hold Paul in very high esteem, he's basically the king of all teachers thereafter Christ and the disciples to date. That is why his letters are in the biblical canon- he brought clarity to the religion where, without him, the New Testament would be wee big.
« Last Edit: Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 13:57:27 by BlackSepulcher »

Offline eph3nine

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #8 on: Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 14:11:42 »
Dear Not religious,

You said
Quote
Dispensationalism falls flat at the end.  It runs out of gas.  Dispensationalism is progressive up to a point, and then it becomes regressive.  It insists that Christ did not nail the requirements of the Law to the cross but the Law must put back in place and animal sacrifices must be reinstated. 

Dispensational IS a biblical word. It does NOT at all insist that Christ did not nail all the requirements of the law to the Cross, and I never stated that, even REMOTELY.

What you are NOT seeing here is that Israels program has been temporarily INTERRUPTED by God Himself, with something that was, according to the Scriptures, KEPT SECRET since the world began, HID IN GOD until due time. The UNPROPHESIED events called by Scripture "the preaching of Jesus Christ ACCORDING TO THE REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY" are found ONLY in Pauls writings. Why? Because Scripture tells us that Paul is the due time testifier and the NEW apostle (not one of the 12 who were sent to Israel alone) with a NEW message for a NEW Creation with a New destination and promises. All but Pauls books are written TO and ABOUT the Nation of Israel and Gods prescribed dealings with THEM alone.

God would be a LIAR if He did NOT fulfil the promises He made to the Nation of Israel under THEIR Covenant, would He NOT? So, He is not yet finished with them. He put THEIR plan and promises ON HOLD temporarily while He ushered in a plan He has had since time began...to create a BODY out of individuals/apart from any special status or standing..based totally on the performance of Christ on their behalf. When He is finished building this BODY church, we will be taken OUT of the way...and Gods timetable with Israel will RESUME where it left OFF. There is ONE course of curses left in the five courses Israel earned according to their agreement with God...four of which have already happened historically. That fifth course will begin as soon as the church which is His body is REMOVED.

God has two plans and purposes....One for HEAVEN and one for  EARTH. Both of these realms were taken over by satan and he is now the god of this world. Israel has to do with earthly promises and inheritance...they were the ONLY ones promised a LAND, and KING and twelve thrones to rule over the twelve tribes of ISRAEL...EARTH is where this will happen.

WE, however, are seated with Christ in the HEAVENLIES. Our promises and purpose have to do with heaven and not earth. That is not to say that we have not been given specific directives on how to live while we are here ON earth, but our purpose is to "make ALL men SEE what is the revelation of the Mystery..."

If we are to cooperate with God in HIS goals, we must KNOW under which administration, or dispensation He is currently operating.

Offline eph3nine

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #9 on: Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 14:16:16 »
Quote
The only part dealing with Christianity is Paul's epistles, without which, you would have a totally JEWISH book.

Actually, since Paul was himself Jewish (and in Acts 28 testified that he not only kept the Law but also the Oral Tradition (customs of our fathers - v 17), and the leadership of the congregations he started had Jewish men (remember he always started in the synagogues) and God Fearers, I would submit that even Paul's letters are "Jewish."

That means the WHOLE BOOK is Jewish.

Paul was unique. He was both Jewish and Gentile. Pauls commission was to preach to the Gentiles. Since Peter and the 12 were told by Jesus to "preach to none but the Jew only" they were quite aware that their message was to be given to ISRAEL.

You are missing the point. Paul was given something BRAND NEW. It was NOT Judaism by any means, but was Christianity...decidedly NOT of the law or the Covenant.

We would know NOTHING of Christianity and would still be limited to coming to God THROUGH Israel had nothing changed.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #10 on: Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 16:32:21 »
How It's Special
Some might argue that Paul and Peter's Gospels were the same and the only difference in their mission was the audience. However, a close reading of the Book of Acts and Paul's letters will show that the messages were also different.
The Jewish disciples in Israel had to obey the law of Moses andall the teachings that Christ gave to the disciples while He ministered on earth (Matthew 28:20).Not so for the world's Gentiles and the Jews outside Israel who responded to Paul's Gospel of Grace. Paul spent the rest of his life explaining the differences between his Gospel and that of the Jewish disciples. Both groups worshipped the same Lord, but they followed Him in different Dispensations.

The word "dispensation" is the Greek word oikonomia. It translates as "household management." It is the position, work, responsibility, commission or arrangement of an administration. Paul used the word for the "management" or "administration" of a spiritual household or economy.
I say with the Jews, it was more by choice to follow the old laws and customs Although tje law had been fulfilled, they couldn't be expected to give up their heritage. Plus, it took time to flesh out what was expected and what wasn't, like circumcision.

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #11 on: Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 20:02:56 »
How It's Special
Some might argue that Paul and Peter's Gospels were the same and the only difference in their mission was the audience. However, a close reading of the Book of Acts and Paul's letters will show that the messages were also different.
The Jewish disciples in Israel had to obey the law of Moses andall the teachings that Christ gave to the disciples while He ministered on earth (Matthew 28:20).Not so for the world's Gentiles and the Jews outside Israel who responded to Paul's Gospel of Grace. Paul spent the rest of his life explaining the differences between his Gospel and that of the Jewish disciples. Both groups worshipped the same Lord, but they followed Him in different Dispensations.

The word "dispensation" is the Greek word oikonomia. It translates as "household management." It is the position, work, responsibility, commission or arrangement of an administration. Paul used the word for the "management" or "administration" of a spiritual household or economy.
I say with the Jews, it was more by choice to follow the old laws and customs Although tje law had been fulfilled, they couldn't be expected to give up their heritage. Plus, it took time to flesh out what was expected and what wasn't, like circumcision.

Absolutely!   

They were Jews.  They were indoctrinated into Judaism and it took awhile for them to move away from this.

Luke and Acts were written together and addressed to Theophilus who was believed to be a Roman official.  Luke's message was to him that this new faith was an outcome of Christ having fulfilled the Messianic prophecies.  The Jewish faith was tolerated by the Romans.   Because the early church appeared "Jewish" the persecution was probably not as harsh as quickly as it could have been.

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #12 on: Wed Jun 26, 2013 - 09:59:51 »
A hundred years ago this Mid-Acts Dispenationalism was being taught.  It is not a recent revelation.  I was formerly known as Kingdom Postponement Theory or Paranthesis Church Theory. 

Offline Genesis2

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #13 on: Sat Oct 04, 2014 - 04:29:19 »
My Bible has four Gospels. They are Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
Paul and the other Apostles writing are epistles, or letters.   Paul tried to tell followers the law of Moses, the 613 sacrificial, feast, food, cleanliness, festival, circumcision laws eliminated..He only referred to them as laws, but in his writeups they are identified by reading the whole chapter.   95 percent of the "christian" churches tend to misinterpret Paul's writings to say the law he is referring to is the Ten commandments..this is completely false, as the Ten commandments are directly from God, written by God on stone tablets and will be around forever..Paul was special in that he was a late comer to the Apostolic group, and was very motivated to travel and reach as many as he could..but his writing, because it could be misinterpred caused Apostle Peter to write in 2nd Peter 3 15,16 a note of caution to people not to misinterpret Paul's writings to their own destruction.    For me Apostle John is the simplest, most straight forward explanation of what is a follower of Jesus/God, and the whole summary of the Gospels which Jesus brought to earth!

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #14 on: Sat Oct 04, 2014 - 06:03:01 »
My Bible has four Gospels. They are Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.  Jesus/God, and the whole summary of the Gospels which Jesus brought to earth!

What is the point that you desire to make?  Not sure.   ::pondering::   

Offline grams

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #15 on: Sat Nov 08, 2014 - 05:07:03 »

If you read Romans  chapter5 and chapter  6 and chapter 7 , these really help to make it know
how things really have changed in our time.

I have always liked  Chapter 5 the best , but when we were into the other
Last week I notice the other  6 and  7 were of more help also !

It is  just so strange  how the bible keep helping and you see things that you have missed !
And we have been through the bible quite a lot.
We read after lunch at least 4 chapters. My husband and I !
We have a DVD  and put it on the TV and read along with the speaker.
It also helps in pronouncing  some words we did not know  before .

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #16 on: Sat Nov 08, 2014 - 06:06:47 »
Quote
Why is Paul's gospel special?

1.  He received it from not from man, and neither was he taught it by man, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Galatians 1:4

2.  His gospel is the only gospel free of God's curse, all others are under the curse of God, make no mistake concerning this truth. Galatians 1:7-9 Sobering words indeed, and should cause every one who profess to believe the scriptures to tremble, and to diligently pray and seek God to cause them to be in the truth, holding to the gospel that Paul as much as any man in flesh, proclaimed.     

3.  His gospel taught us that no man is justified by the works of the law~which by, he included all works, including faith that proceeds from man, cannot legally justified any man. Galatians 2:16, etc.

4.  Paul's gospel is so special and precious to the ears of believers, because it reveals that THE righteousness, that gives man a right to life: (A)~Its source is God's will: Galatians 1:4; (B)~based upon his free grace: Galatians 2:21;  (C)~Secured for the elect seed, by the faith and righteousness of God's Son alone, apart from the works of man, foreseen, or otherwise:  Galatians Galatians 2:16, 2:21;  Romans 9:11; 11:5,6;  5:19; etc.

5.  ~Paul's gospel is special because it exalt one person's righteousness as the only means as to why any are sons of God.  We are sons of God because of God's promises of grace to us, and for no other reasons~ brought to pass by God's promises and his power to bring it to pass.~just as Isaac was promise to Abraham, and cause Isaac to be born by his great power~and to cause a dead womb to produce, that was indeed passed child bearing.  So likewise with us, who were dead in trespasses and sins, cause us to be resurrected spiritually and have faith in Him, and his Son Jesus our Lord.

6. Lastly, Paul's gospel is precious because it allows men to understand how that God can be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus Christ. It allow us to comprehend what part faith comes into play; the purpose of preaching, and it allows us to reconcile all scriptures that seemly are irreconcilable.

God's will to create and to reveal his greatness.  We were  elected by grace, according to God's FREE WILL, which is subject to no one, and does not give account to anyone, neither does he need to.  We were given to Jesus Christ to redeem, according to God God's will to show mercy and to reveal himself, and his greatness.  God willed to give to us scriptures so that He and his  purposes and acts could be searched out and understood.  The scriptures are only a source of information to us, so that we can know him, and his acts of greatness toward us through His Son Jesus Christ.  The scriptures were not given to us as a source of our regeneration, but as a source of KNOWLEDGE for the elect seed.  God regenerates alone by his power, apart from all means.  All these things are revealed to us by Paul's gospel. 
« Last Edit: Sat Nov 08, 2014 - 06:12:31 by Red Baker »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #17 on: Sat Nov 08, 2014 - 07:04:28 »
In the Nt there is only one gospel. There are NOT two or more iterated in scripture.
« Last Edit: Sat Nov 08, 2014 - 08:52:50 by Jaime »

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #18 on: Tue Nov 11, 2014 - 09:15:02 »
In the Nt there is only one gospel. There are NOT two or more iterated in scripture.

There is but one Gospel, but it would be impossible to not see that the Judaizers (Paul called them the circumcision) tried to impede the teaching of the Gospel.  Some preferred that he was dead.   In Thessalonica he was opposed by the pagan Greeks, the Jews, the Judaizers, and the Romans.  Paul gave his life for the Gospel.   This is the Gospel, as Paul summarized it:

1Cor 15:1  Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
1Cor 15:2  and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
1Cor 15:3  For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Cor 15:4  that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures

The Gospel's truth is still impeded today.   "Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures" is a reference to God's own act of Grace on our behalf.   When we emphasize what we think we're supposed to do to be saved then we are also involved in the same sin as the Judaizers who preferred Law over Grace.   If the Law is in effect then Christ has not fulfilled it and there is no more Grace.
 

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #19 on: Tue Nov 11, 2014 - 10:00:08 »
It isn't what we THINK at all that matters. It's what scripture says. believing, repenting, confessing with our lips and baptism are ONLY about grace. None of these would be affective for anything without grace.
« Last Edit: Tue Nov 11, 2014 - 10:42:06 by Jaime »

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #20 on: Tue Jan 13, 2015 - 19:34:10 »
In the Nt there is only one gospel. There are NOT two or more iterated in scripture.

Actually there are two gospels but only Paul's applies to Gentiles today.......the other one was the Gospel of the Kingdom preached to the Jews.  The Kingdom needed a King and He was there.  Had every Jew accepted Christ He would have set up the Kingdom right after the Tribulation.  As it is now this gospel will once again be preached during the Tribulation. 

Mat_4:23  And he went throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction among the people.
Mat_9:35  And Jesus went throughout all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction.
Mat_24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Nothing to get upset about........just a fwiw

Offline Shimshon

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #21 on: Tue Jan 13, 2015 - 20:30:09 »
The Gospel Message.  By First Fruits of Zion
Here is a Messianic Jewish perspective on the gospel.
« Last Edit: Tue Jan 13, 2015 - 20:45:54 by Shimshon »

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #22 on: Wed Jan 14, 2015 - 19:53:05 »
In the Nt there is only one gospel. There are NOT two or more iterated in scripture.

Actually there are two gospels but only Paul's applies to Gentiles today.......the other one was the Gospel of the Kingdom preached to the Jews.  The Kingdom needed a King and He was there.  Had every Jew accepted Christ He would have set up the Kingdom right after the Tribulation.  As it is now this gospel will once again be preached during the Tribulation. 

Mat_4:23  And he went throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction among the people.
Mat_9:35  And Jesus went throughout all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction.
Mat_24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Nothing to get upset about........just a fwiw

I don't get upset about that, and I have understood that aspect for many years.   When someone starts with that and takes it to the point that the Church is raptured from the Earth and never sets foot on the Earth again because the Church is destined for Heaven and the Jews are destined for the Earth, that upsets me.    Christ does not and will not reign over two peoples and two kingdoms for two purposes.   

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #23 on: Thu Jan 15, 2015 - 03:08:03 »
Dispensationalism is progressive up to a point, and then it becomes regressive.  It insists that Christ did not nail the requirements of the Law to the cross but the Law must put back in place and animal sacrifices must be reinstated. 
where does it say that?

In Matt - Luke Jesus teaches to the Jews. He sends the Apostles out to teach the Jews.  He had not died yet, or rose again.  How could He/they teach that to the people?

It seems so many don't 'see' that.  They don't 'see' the difference. It changed when Paul started teaching the death and resurrection - and grace.

I didn't 'see' it for many yrs, when I did things that didn't make a lot of sense before then made sense.  Have you noticed in m-L often after Jesus has some teaching about His future (death etc) it then says that the Apostles had no idea what He was saying?

Offline skeeter

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #24 on: Thu Jan 15, 2015 - 03:32:32 »
I don't get upset about that, and I have understood that aspect for many years.   When someone starts with that and takes it to the point that the Church is raptured from the Earth and never sets foot on the Earth again because the Church is destined for Heaven and the Jews are destined for the Earth, that upsets me.    Christ does not and will not reign over two peoples and two kingdoms for two purposes.
don't get upset then... it actually says that we will go up in the rapture (that includes saved Jews).  During the tribulation time there will be concentrated teaching to the Jewish people again.  Then in Rev it says we will come back with Christ when He comes again. The newly saved Jewish people will be here.

The rapture and 2nd coming are 2 different events.  Many think they are the same.


Offline skeeter

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #25 on: Thu Jan 15, 2015 - 03:47:45 »
Quote
God worked differently with the Gentiles through Paul than with the Jews through Peter, James and John. The rules were different. The goals and objectives were different.

OK - IN YOUR OPINION: what is the eternal status (in heaven or in hell) for the 3000 that came to faith in Yeshua/Jesus in Acts 2?  They were all Jews. Peter was a Jew.  Or the "tens of thousands" in the Jerusalem congregation under James in Acts 21?  They were all Jews.

IOW - is what you call "Peter's Gospel" a salvic (in the eternal sense) message?
yes

Offline 4WD

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #26 on: Thu Jan 15, 2015 - 06:02:27 »
I don't get upset about that, and I have understood that aspect for many years.   When someone starts with that and takes it to the point that the Church is raptured from the Earth and never sets foot on the Earth again because the Church is destined for Heaven and the Jews are destined for the Earth, that upsets me.    Christ does not and will not reign over two peoples and two kingdoms for two purposes.
don't get upset then... it actually says that we will go up in the rapture (that includes saved Jews).  During the tribulation time there will be concentrated teaching to the Jewish people again.  Then in Rev it says we will come back with Christ when He comes again. The newly saved Jewish people will be here.

The rapture and 2nd coming are 2 different events.  Many think they are the same.

They are the same.

Offline skeeter

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #27 on: Thu Jan 15, 2015 - 07:23:13 »
I don't get upset about that, and I have understood that aspect for many years.   When someone starts with that and takes it to the point that the Church is raptured from the Earth and never sets foot on the Earth again because the Church is destined for Heaven and the Jews are destined for the Earth, that upsets me.    Christ does not and will not reign over two peoples and two kingdoms for two purposes.
don't get upset then... it actually says that we will go up in the rapture (that includes saved Jews).  During the tribulation time there will be concentrated teaching to the Jewish people again.  Then in Rev it says we will come back with Christ when He comes again. The newly saved Jewish people will be here.

The rapture and 2nd coming are 2 different events.  Many think they are the same.

They are the same.
why do you think that?

Offline 4WD

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #28 on: Thu Jan 15, 2015 - 07:35:43 »
I don't get upset about that, and I have understood that aspect for many years.   When someone starts with that and takes it to the point that the Church is raptured from the Earth and never sets foot on the Earth again because the Church is destined for Heaven and the Jews are destined for the Earth, that upsets me.    Christ does not and will not reign over two peoples and two kingdoms for two purposes.
don't get upset then... it actually says that we will go up in the rapture (that includes saved Jews).  During the tribulation time there will be concentrated teaching to the Jewish people again.  Then in Rev it says we will come back with Christ when He comes again. The newly saved Jewish people will be here.

The rapture and 2nd coming are 2 different events.  Many think they are the same.

They are the same.
why do you think that?

Because that is what the Bible says.

Offline fish153

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #29 on: Thu Jan 15, 2015 - 21:31:50 »
Skeeter--

To be more precise it is two phases within one event.  The first coming of Christ spanned 33 years. The second coming of Christ will also span years.  In the first phase of the second coming the Rapture will occur.  That is why in the second phase Jesus returns WITH HIS SAINTS to the earth to destroy the Anti-Christ.  Many believe that there will be a seven year period between the first and second phases of the second coming of Christ.   The tribulation will occur at the same time that the Judgment seat of Christ takes place in Heaven.

Then Christ will start the second phase of His return, bringing his saints with Him, defeating the Anti-Christ and then reigning on earth for 1000 years.

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #30 on: Fri Jan 16, 2015 - 08:02:03 »
Skeeter--

To be more precise it is two phases within one event.  The first coming of Christ spanned 33 years. The second coming of Christ will also span years.  In the first phase of the second coming the Rapture will occur.  That is why in the second phase Jesus returns WITH HIS SAINTS to the earth to destroy the Anti-Christ.  Many believe that there will be a seven year period between the first and second phases of the second coming of Christ.   The tribulation will occur at the same time that the Judgment seat of Christ takes place in Heaven.

Then Christ will start the second phase of His return, bringing his saints with Him, defeating the Anti-Christ and then reigning on earth for 1000 years.

Premillennialism is just as unscriptural as two-gospelism.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #31 on: Fri Jan 16, 2015 - 09:01:34 »
Skeeter--

To be more precise it is two phases within one event.  The first coming of Christ spanned 33 years. The second coming of Christ will also span years.  In the first phase of the second coming the Rapture will occur.  That is why in the second phase Jesus returns WITH HIS SAINTS to the earth to destroy the Anti-Christ.  Many believe that there will be a seven year period between the first and second phases of the second coming of Christ.   The tribulation will occur at the same time that the Judgment seat of Christ takes place in Heaven.

Then Christ will start the second phase of His return, bringing his saints with Him, defeating the Anti-Christ and then reigning on earth for 1000 years.

Premillennialism is just as unscriptural as two-gospelism.

Why are we to watch for the thief in the night if there is no rapture before the tribulation? We know full well the second coming takes place after the tribulation. What kind of thief is that, that announces his coming. Are we to watch for the thief (Christ) or the tribulation?

Why will the graves open and all will meet the Lord in the air, then do a 180 and come down with Lord? The Bible plainly says at the second coming Christ will set His feet on the mt. of Olives.

I have a crazy idea! There may be a coming before the coming.

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #32 on: Fri Jan 16, 2015 - 14:03:26 »
Skeeter--

To be more precise it is two phases within one event.  The first coming of Christ spanned 33 years. The second coming of Christ will also span years.  In the first phase of the second coming the Rapture will occur.  That is why in the second phase Jesus returns WITH HIS SAINTS to the earth to destroy the Anti-Christ.  Many believe that there will be a seven year period between the first and second phases of the second coming of Christ.   The tribulation will occur at the same time that the Judgment seat of Christ takes place in Heaven.

Then Christ will start the second phase of His return, bringing his saints with Him, defeating the Anti-Christ and then reigning on earth for 1000 years.

Premillennialism is just as unscriptural as two-gospelism.

Why are we to watch for the thief in the night if there is no rapture before the tribulation? We know full well the second coming takes place after the tribulation. What kind of thief is that, that announces his coming. Are we to watch for the thief (Christ) or the tribulation?

Why will the graves open and all will meet the Lord in the air, then do a 180 and come down with Lord? The Bible plainly says at the second coming Christ will set His feet on the mt. of Olives.

I have a crazy idea! There may be a coming before the coming.

Watching is about being prepared, holding on to your faith.  When Jesus comes again, assuming that we are still alive, it will be too late to get ready.  It has the same effect as dying.  Once it happens, then there is no going back.  It has nothing to do with any tribulation, or rapture or any of those concepts, whether true or false.  And yes, the coming before the coming is a crazy idea.  There is no third coming.

Offline justthefacts

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #33 on: Sat Jan 17, 2015 - 15:29:27 »
 ::smile::The apostle Paul’s Gospel is not special, but those unto whom it is written are.

There are only two advents of the Lord spoken of in scripture [Old and New testaments].

He is the thief that comes when no man is watching and therein is the breakdown [shame] of the saints.

Pro 13:18
Poverty and shame shall be to him that refuseth instruction: but he that regardeth reproof shall be honoured.

 
Psa 4:2
O ye sons of men, how long will ye turn my glory into shame? how long will ye love vanity, and seek after leasing? Selah.


Rev 3:18
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Rev 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


Mar 13:37
And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.


As with these five scriptures, all scriptures support each other, for there is no controversy in truth.

There is no book, chapter, or verse in the bible that contradicts another, and as it is reflected in these five scriptures, to watch, to have no shame, and not to be found naked all bear the same reasoning.

Each is speaking of “Truth”, Gods truth as it is expounded unto us in His word, for when we have gained knowledge with understanding of His word, then we will have no shame, for we are clothed in His vester of truth and therefore we have the rightful knowledge for which we are to watch and not be overtaken.

The word Gospel simply means “The Good News or Tidings”, and there are several Gospels [good news] given throughout the scriptures, for in each dispensation of the workings of the heavenly Father, Good news is given from Him toward the salvation of His children.

The Gospel of Paul as it is stated is not Paul’s Gospel at all, for every documentation and Spiritual act accomplished in the earth and in heaven toward the writings and fulfilling of these things are performed by the Holy Spirit and not man.

  Paul stating “My Gospel” simply means the good news that was given unto him to deliver to the gentiles with hopefully, some spilling over onto his own brethren.

This statement was not designed to give credit unto the apostle for that which he preached, but only to define the message he was delivering [the type of good news] for those unto whom it was to be delivered.

 Now with that being said, let’s look at this Rapture doctrine that the main stream Church preaches and see what the Holy Father’s word has to say concerning it.

For the most part, the base root of the doctrine is derived from the book of First Thessalonians chapter 4, starting about verse 16 where the apostle Paul is teaching about Christians joining to the Lord at the end of the age.

They claim that the Lord is going to descend from heaven in the clouds [not touching the earth] and raise from the graves all who have died as believers which then shall join all those believers who are still alive on the earth and they shall together ascend to meet the Lord in the air.

This they claim is the Rapture [resurrection] of the Church.

They go on to teach that this Rapture [resurrection] will take place just before the great tribulation spoken of by Daniel the prophet which is to come upon the world.

They teach that the purpose for this Rapture is so that the Church will not have to endure the deceptions of antichrist who comes at this time deceiving the whole world.

While mankind is partying with the antichrist during this tribulation period, God and His children in Christ [Church] will be feasting together in heaven after which, they shall stand with the Lord as He inflicts punishment and death to the inhabitants of the earth for their evil.

Now I have many grievances with this philosophy, this doctrine, with the first being it just inst true.

Now let’s go back to the book of First Thessalonians chapter 4 and see just what it has to say, but instead of going to the middle of the subject and trying to understand what Paul is teaching, let’s go to the beginning which starts in verse 13.

By the language of verse 13, it reflects that a question of understanding arises so the apostle begins to teach concerning the subject:
 
“Where are the dead”?

Starting in verse 13, Paul begins to expound unto the Thessalonians what happens to those who are in Christ when they die, for he states:

1Th 4:13

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


Now this is not the first time Paul addressed this subject, for in his first epistle unto the Corinthians, the apostle also teaches pertaining to this:

 
1Co 15:35
 
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?


In this 15th chapter of First Corinthians, Paul teaches expressively about the resurrection.

He explains how and when the resurrection of all people shall take place, but here in 1st Thessalonians, Paul focuses the attention strictly upon those who are in Christ at the time of death in this world.

First Paul states: I would not have you to be ignorant [without understanding] of this as those who have no hope.

“Those who have no hope”, the lost, without Christ in the world who die never having found the salvation of the Lord, but not for those who sleep [rest] in Christ, for as God raised Jesus, so has He raised those who are in Him.

They are not out there in some hole in the ground awaiting the resurrection of the last day as some teach, for in the next verse it states:

1Th 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


“By the word of the Lord”, those in Christ who have passed from this world shall not wait for those who still remain in the earth before joining back to the Father.

They are already there with Him as the Lord promised in St John 14:2-3.

Now pay very close attention to that which the apostle Paul states next:

1Th 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


“The Lord Himself” shall descend with a shout [Rev 11:12], with the voice of the archangel [Michael, Dan 12:1], and with the trump of God [the sounding of the last or 7th trump], and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

The dead in Christ who have already gone on to be with the Lord in His Father’s house shall return with Him.

For the apostle stated afterward:

1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord


The same as Paul’s teaching in the book of 1Cor 15:51-53:

1Co 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed

1Co 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Co 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.



In verse 17, the clouds reference a gathering [compare Heb 12:1], and the word air represents spirit or breath of life [compare Gen 2:7].

I fail to see by the time line given in these scriptures pertaining to this event taking place at the “Last Trump”, and to the description as how it takes place, where anyone can rightly conceive Rapture in the midst of this teaching or the time in which they teach it shall take place which is before the Great Tribulation.

There is no Rapture being taught in 1Thes 4 or in 1Cor 15 and it is Gods will that His Church take part in the Great Tribulation as taught by the Lord Himself in the book of Mark chapter 13, for they [His Church] have a destiny to fulfill and a date with death [Satan] as given unto them in that great book.

Even as far back as the prophet Ezekiel, God stated that He was against those who taught His children to fly [Rapture] to save their souls. Eze 13:16-23

There is no fly away doctrine supported in God’s word.

The reason Christ comes as a thief in the night is because those who are supposed to be looking for His return have already been deceived by the “Instead of Christ” who comes at the sixth trump into believing that the true Christ has already arived, therefore, they are not “Watching” for Him.


God Bless


JTF


Offline DaveW

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Re: Why is Pauls' gospel special?
« Reply #34 on: Tue Jan 20, 2015 - 05:28:54 »
To be more precise it is two phases within one event.  The first coming of Christ spanned 33 years. The second coming of Christ will also span years.  In the first phase of the second coming the Rapture will occur.  That is why in the second phase Jesus returns WITH HIS SAINTS to the earth to destroy the Anti-Christ.  Many believe that there will be a seven year period between the first and second phases of the second coming of Christ.   The tribulation will occur at the same time that the Judgment seat of Christ takes place in Heaven.

Then Christ will start the second phase of His return, bringing his saints with Him, defeating the Anti-Christ and then reigning on earth for 1000 years.

Back when I was a pre-tribber, I saw the same pattern but saw the pre-trib return as the 2nd coming and the post trib return with the saints as a 3rd coming.  It was part of the reason I eventually moved away from the pre-trib rapture belief.

 

     
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