Author Topic: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed  (Read 4155 times)

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Offline cgaviria

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This study explains why although the Law of Moses has not been abolished, nor can any command therein be disobeyed, certain commands are no longer observed, such as circumcision, festivals, sabbaths, and abstaining from certain foods. The study can be found in English here http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/02/24/explanation-of-the-foreshadows-of-the-law-of-moses-festivals-sacrifices-circumcision-sabbaths-foods/ or in Spanish here http://www.sabiduriadedios.co/2017/02/24/por-que-la-ley-no-es-abolida-sin-embargo-la-circuncision-festivales-sacrificios-sabados-alimentos-ya-no-se-observan/ . Let us begin a discussion on these matters.

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Offline chosenone

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Paul tells us what we as gentile Christians need to do
Acts 21 v 25
With regard to the Gentiles who have believed, we have written a letter containing our decision that they should keep themselves from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality."
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 14, 2017 - 04:33:01 by chosenone »

Offline cgaviria

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Paul tells us what we as gentile Christians need to do
Acts 21 v 25
With regard to the Gentiles who have believed, we have written a letter containing our decision that they should keep themselves from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality."

Oh so "do not murder" does not apply? "Do not steal"?

Online Jaime

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Think moral law vs ceremonial law.

Offline Jason_NC

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Think moral law vs ceremonial law.

This.

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Offline chosenone

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Paul tells us what we as gentile Christians need to do
Acts 21 v 25
With regard to the Gentiles who have believed, we have written a letter containing our decision that they should keep themselves from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality."

Oh so "do not murder" does not apply? "Do not steal"?

Christians are taught not to kill or steal, also its all part of loving others as you love yourself.

Offline cgaviria

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Paul tells us what we as gentile Christians need to do
Acts 21 v 25
With regard to the Gentiles who have believed, we have written a letter containing our decision that they should keep themselves from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality."

Oh so "do not murder" does not apply? "Do not steal"?

Christians are taught not to kill or steal, also its all part of loving others as you love yourself.

Where do you suppose "do not kill" came from? Where do you suppose "do not steal" came from? Even "love your neighbor as yourself", where do you suppose this command came from? These are all commandments of the law, open your eyes.

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Rom 2:14  For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
Rom 2:15  They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
Rom 2:16  on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3  For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4  in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:5  For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6  For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
Rom 8:7  For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
Rom 8:8  Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9  You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Rom 8:10  But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:14  For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Heb 8:13  In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The 613 commandments were all part of the Law.  They are contained within the Pentateuch, and that's why the Pentateuch is called the Law by Jews.    This was the constitution for the nation of Israel.

In Christ there is no more Jew and Gentile but one new man in Christ.

Eph 2:14  For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
Eph 2:15  by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
Eph 2:16  and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

1Ti 1:6  Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion,
1Ti 1:7  desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.
1Ti 1:8  Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
1Ti 1:9  understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers,
1Ti 1:10  the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,
1Ti 1:11  in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.
1Ti 1:12  I thank him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, appointing me to his service,
1Ti 1:13  though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief,
1Ti 1:14  and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15  The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.
1Ti 1:16  But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.
1Ti 1:17  To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

The purpose of the Law was to condemn.   In Christ we have been freed from the Law's condemnation.  Thus Christ rendered it obsolete.   Those who want to continue in the Law today are those who want to use it to condemn others.     

Those who are led by the Holy Spirit do not need to refer to a written list to know in their hearts that murder is wrong. 

Offline 4WD

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Heb 8:13  In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Covenant and Law are two different things entirely.  He made the first covenant obsolete.  Nothing there says anything about making the Law obsolete.
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Those who are led by the Holy Spirit do not need to refer to a written list to know in their hearts that murder is wrong.
Then I assume you think, erroneously, that those who are led by the Holy Spirit do not need to refer to anything written to understand what God intends for us.  If that were true, one wonders why He bothered to write anything, a list or otherwise.



Online Jaime

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The ten commandments are summed up by love God and love your neighbor. Live God and love your neighbor is NOT a replacement of the moral law, but a simplified summary OF that moral law.
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 14, 2017 - 18:51:19 by Jaime »

Offline SwordMaster

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This study explains why although the Law of Moses has not been abolished, nor can any command therein be disobeyed, certain commands are no longer observed, such as circumcision, festivals, sabbaths, and abstaining from certain foods. The study can be found in English here http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/02/24/explanation-of-the-foreshadows-of-the-law-of-moses-festivals-sacrifices-circumcision-sabbaths-foods/ or in Spanish here http://www.sabiduriadedios.co/2017/02/24/por-que-la-ley-no-es-abolida-sin-embargo-la-circuncision-festivales-sacrificios-sabados-alimentos-ya-no-se-observan/ . Let us begin a discussion on these matters.



Actually, your study is out the window here, because we have numerous passages that tells us that the law of Moses, hence the 10 Commandments, were fulfilled and abrogated by Christ. Here are just a few... which if I am not mistaken, you have already been given and yet decided to ignore them or explain them away for the bias you cling to. But here they are nonetheless...

Matthew 11:12-13
From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John,

Hebrews 10:9
then He added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Luke 16:16
The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.

Hebrews 8:13
In that He said a new covenant, He abrogates the first, and that which is abrogated and old is closed and disappearing.

Hebrews 7:12
For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

These should be self-explanatory, but if they are not, let me know and I will explain them.

Blessings!


Offline cgaviria

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This study explains why although the Law of Moses has not been abolished, nor can any command therein be disobeyed, certain commands are no longer observed, such as circumcision, festivals, sabbaths, and abstaining from certain foods. The study can be found in English here http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/02/24/explanation-of-the-foreshadows-of-the-law-of-moses-festivals-sacrifices-circumcision-sabbaths-foods/ or in Spanish here http://www.sabiduriadedios.co/2017/02/24/por-que-la-ley-no-es-abolida-sin-embargo-la-circuncision-festivales-sacrificios-sabados-alimentos-ya-no-se-observan/ . Let us begin a discussion on these matters.



Actually, your study is out the window here, because we have numerous passages that tells us that the law of Moses, hence the 10 Commandments, were fulfilled and abrogated by Christ. Here are just a few... which if I am not mistaken, you have already been given and yet decided to ignore them or explain them away for the bias you cling to. But here they are nonetheless...

Matthew 11:12-13
From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John,

Hebrews 10:9
then He added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Luke 16:16
The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.

Hebrews 8:13
In that He said a new covenant, He abrogates the first, and that which is abrogated and old is closed and disappearing.

Hebrews 7:12
For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

These should be self-explanatory, but if they are not, let me know and I will explain them.

Blessings!


First, concerning Hebrews 10:9. Jesus Christ did away with the old covenant, not with the law that came through the old covenant. Hence why we now have a new covenant, but NOT a new law, for until heaven and earth passes, the law will not pass.

Second, concerning Ephesians 2:15, Jesus Christ didn't abolish the law, he annulled it, "made it of no effect", "made it inoperative", because even though this perfect law reveals everything that is sin, it does not give life, it kills. As such, it is in the new covenant, by receiving the holy spirit, that comes through mere belief in Jesus Christ, that a man is then made into a new creation, able to perfectly obey the law.

Third, concerning Luke 16:16, "the law and prophets" were until John means that the giving forth of the law and the declaration of the prophets were UNTIL John, not that the law was abolished, nor what the prophets spoke. The prophets spoke of a new heaven and new earth, that has not yet come to pass, so without a doubt you are misinterpreting that statement to mean that both things are abolished.

Fourth, concerning Hebrews 8:13, again, the old covenant is gone, but the law that came through the old covenant has not yet vanished. It will vanish when heaven and earth disappear. Heaven and earth has not yet disappeared, so it is still in full effect.

Fifth, concerning Hebrews 7:12, there was indeed a change in the law. The manner in which the shadows of the law are observed. Such as Passover, such as Pentecost, circumcision etc, they are no longer observed in the literal manner they were commanded to be observed, but by the realities they foreshadowed. This was the change of the law in the new covenant. The change of the law is not abolishing the law.

Sixth, concerning Romans 7:6, being released from the law does not mean that the law is abolished nor that you are released from the law to disobey it. It means that you are released from the slavery of sin that the law reveals, and the condemnation of death that the law demands. Hence the terms, "freed from sin", and "freed from the law of sin and death".

All of this is pretty easy to understand.

Offline Pkbrother

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The new testament cannot be understood without the Old Testament
To get the correct setting
Remeber in the 1 st century they did not have the new testament
Only had the Apostles and then some of their writings were circulated
There were 3 main covenants in the Bible althouh God also made a covenant with Noah

2 covenants in the OT were exclusively talke about by Paul and compared to Christs covenant
Covenant means to cut....thus circumcision, killing animals.....
Hebrews 9:22 law purged with blood, without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
1. Covenant with Abraham made with blood....
2. Covenant made with Moses through blood.....
3. New covenant made through Christ through His own blood.....

Usually when Paul refers to the law he is talking about Moses covenant
The law was verbal for the most part until Moses....
GOds law preceaded Moses as murder, sabbath , animal sacrifices, tithes......in Genesis
Also there were priests melchizadek...before Moses
The law and covenant of Moses was reintroduced in a more basic and written way beacuse the Israelites had lost much of the verbal in the 400 years of Egypt slavery
Gal. 3:19
The law was given because of transgressions......(law of Moses)
The law shows us our sins....romans 7:7
The law of Moses was given in a basic elementary form until Christ came
Galations 3:24-25
The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ.....
After faith has come we are no longer under a tutor......
Much as you would relax rules with kids when they grow up. As they earn your trust..curfew,  movies......
jesus came to rightly divide the law
Coveting, lusts...are more than what is seen by men but what is seen by God in saecret....
Matthew 5:7
I came not to abolish the law but to fulfill the law.......
Animal sacrifices were no longer necesary because Jesus established a new covenant with His own blood
Luke 22:20
This cup is the new covenant in my blood.......
Although the law was fulfilled in Christ we are to follow the Spirit
As Jesus said the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth
John 16:13
If you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law
Galations 5:18

Offline SwordMaster

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CG said...

Quote
This study explains why although the Law of Moses has not been abolished, nor can any command therein be disobeyed, certain commands are no longer observed, such as circumcision, festivals, sabbaths, and abstaining from certain foods. The study can be found in English here http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/02/24/explanation-of-the-foreshadows-of-the-law-of-moses-festivals-sacrifices-circumcision-sabbaths-foods/ or in Spanish here http://www.sabiduriadedios.co/2017/02/24/por-que-la-ley-no-es-abolida-sin-embargo-la-circuncision-festivales-sacrificios-sabados-alimentos-ya-no-se-observan/ . Let us begin a discussion on these matters.



Actually, your study is out the window here, because we have numerous passages that tells us that the law of Moses, hence the 10 Commandments, were fulfilled and abrogated by Christ. Here are just a few... which if I am not mistaken, you have already been given and yet decided to ignore them or explain them away for the bias you cling to. But here they are nonetheless...

Matthew 11:12-13
From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John,

Hebrews 10:9
then He added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Luke 16:16
The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.

Hebrews 8:13
In that He said a new covenant, He abrogates the first, and that which is abrogated and old is closed and disappearing.

Hebrews 7:12
For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

These should be self-explanatory, but if they are not, let me know and I will explain them.

Blessings!


First, concerning Hebrews 10:9. Jesus Christ did away with the old covenant, not with the law that came through the old covenant. Hence why we now have a new covenant, but NOT a new law, for until heaven and earth passes, the law will not pass.


You demonstrate that you know little concerning ancient near eastern covenants, and that the New Covenant (as well as the Old) are, and were fashioned, after them.

First...why did you begin with Hebrews instead of addressing (and skipping) the passages in Matthew and Luke?

Second, you are dead wrong. The law came through the Old Covenant, and is a part of the Old Covenant. Therefore, when the Old Covenant was abrogated, so was the law that came with it.

Third, you are not interpreting the "for until heaven and earth passes away, the law will not pass" part...Christ fulfilled the law, and the last thing that He did that fulfilled it was receiving baptism by John. The old law was not given primarily for Israel (or us) to fulfill, but was specifically the standard of holiness and righteousness for the Messiah to fulfill in order to fulfill His Messianic ministry.

If you go back and study Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy, you just might see that scarlet truth...

Quote
Second, concerning Ephesians 2:15, Jesus Christ didn't abolish the law, he annulled it, "made it of no effect", "made it inoperative", because even though this perfect law reveals everything that is sin, it does not give life, it kills. As such, it is in the new covenant, by receiving the holy spirit, that comes through mere belief in Jesus Christ, that a man is then made into a new creation, able to perfectly obey the law.


You are wrong on several points here, and show that you have a reformed understanding of the Scriptures, which is baseless on many counts.

First, the words abolished, annulled, made of no effect, made inoperative...all mean the same thing; you have a problem with definitions here.

Second, the law of Moses still has a job to do, just as Paul tells us in Galatians: its job today is to show people just how sinful they really are, in an effort to drive them to Christ. However, it has no bearing at all upon those who are in Christ.

Third, you do not receive the Spirit "through mere belief in Jesus Christ" and when you learn how to correctly study the Scriptures utilizing a complete Biblical Hermeneutic, you will be able to see that and come to the same conclusion (unless you let your bias dictate what you believe, rather than the Word of God).

Fourth...no one is able to "perfectly obey the law," and to say that demonstrates that you don't have enough life experience to be able to distinguish between false teachings and reality. No insult intended.

Fifth, you are calling Paul a liar, or stating that he didn't know what he was talking about. The text says that Christ "abolished the law of commandments expressed in ordinances" and you come right out of the gate saying that "Christ didn't abolish the law." Wow...you have an issue here...

Quote
Third, concerning Luke 16:16, "the law and prophets" were until John means that the giving forth of the law and the declaration of the prophets were UNTIL John, not that the law was abolished, nor what the prophets spoke. The prophets spoke of a new heaven and new earth, that has not yet come to pass, so without a doubt you are misinterpreting that statement to mean that both things are abolished.


Negative, I don't misinterpret it, I interpret it just as He said it, followed with many other passages that make your refutation silent at best. He said clearly, the law and the prophets, as they have to do with Him, were "until John." Look up the Greek word for "until" there...it means pretty much the same as "until" in English...meaning that it marks an end of something, the termination of something. Hence, the end and termination of the law of Moses and the prophets (the prophets as having to do with His first coming, NOT prophecies that have yet to come to pass).

Quote
Fourth, concerning Hebrews 8:13, again, the old covenant is gone, but the law that came through the old covenant has not yet vanished. It will vanish when heaven and earth disappear. Heaven and earth has not yet disappeared, so it is still in full effect.


Again, see my answer above directed at your "heaven and earth" understanding. Jesus used the same phraseology when addressing John the Baptist, telling people that he was "Elijah to come" and then a few passages further, tells them that "Elijah has already come." It is the same phraseology used in the "heaven and earth" passage in Matthew that you continually misinterpret from lack of experience in the Word. He said that it would not pass "until"...yet He has ALREADY fulfilled it before He even spoke those words.

Is He a liar, or a trickster? No, but He hardly ever spoke in plain language...you can look up why in Mat. 13:10-13...

Quote
Fifth, concerning Hebrews 7:12, there was indeed a change in the law. The manner in which the shadows of the law are observed. Such as Passover, such as Pentecost, circumcision etc, they are no longer observed in the literal manner they were commanded to be observed, but by the realities they foreshadowed. This was the change of the law in the new covenant. The change of the law is not abolishing the law.


You have a weird way of defining certain words in order to accommodate your theories. Change of law means just that, just as we changed one president for another...just as one commander of a military unit is changed to another. Change means that one ended and another took over...unless you believe in the "evolution" of law from one into another...and in that case you would be labeled a heretic.

Quote
Sixth, concerning Romans 7:6, being released from the law does not mean that the law is abolished nor that you are released from the law to disobey it. It means that you are released from the slavery of sin that the law reveals, and the condemnation of death that the law demands. Hence the terms, "freed from sin", and "freed from the law of sin and death".


Again, you are interpreting the passage according to your bias, not what the text actually states. I will grant that this passage does not actually state that the law has been abolished, but the others do make that clear statement...this one was just added for fluff, but it means the same thing.

Quote
All of this is pretty easy to understand.


Actually, you show that you have only a carnal understanding of them, which is why you didn't get even one of them correct. The plain truth of the matter is that the Old Covenant and its law were never designed for permanency, they were temporary, just as Paul states in Galatians. The law had its purpose, and when Christ came the purpose of the law was finished as it has to do with the righteous. Now it is through the Faith and the New Covenant and the new Law of Christ of that covenant.

Blessings!



Offline chosenone

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Paul tells us what we as gentile Christians need to do
Acts 21 v 25
With regard to the Gentiles who have believed, we have written a letter containing our decision that they should keep themselves from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality."

Oh so "do not murder" does not apply? "Do not steal"?

Christians are taught not to kill or steal, also its all part of loving others as you love yourself.

Where do you suppose "do not kill" came from? Where do you suppose "do not steal" came from? Even "love your neighbor as yourself", where do you suppose this command came from? These are all commandments of the law, open your eyes.
 


A christian shouldnt even need to be told not to do those things. If we love God and love our neighbour we wont kill them or steal from them.

Offline cgaviria

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Paul tells us what we as gentile Christians need to do
Acts 21 v 25
With regard to the Gentiles who have believed, we have written a letter containing our decision that they should keep themselves from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality."

Oh so "do not murder" does not apply? "Do not steal"?

Christians are taught not to kill or steal, also its all part of loving others as you love yourself.

Where do you suppose "do not kill" came from? Where do you suppose "do not steal" came from? Even "love your neighbor as yourself", where do you suppose this command came from? These are all commandments of the law, open your eyes.
 


A christian shouldnt even need to be told not to do those things. If we love God and love our neighbour we wont kill them or steal from them.

And if you love God you will keep his other commandments contained in his law. Not just these three. It never ceases to amaze me how you Protestants can say you love God, yet you hate his law, and grumble and find reasonings to try to discard his law to try to accommodate your own wicked lifestyles that are contrary to his law! You are the opposite of what a man after God's own heart wrote,

Oh, how I love your law! I meditate on it all day long. (Psalm 119:97 [NIV])

The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple. (Psalm 19:7 [NIV])

And even what the prophets said,

"You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. (Nehemiah 9:13 [NIV])

Whoever says that the law is abolished has been deceived and is on a path to destruction.

Offline SwordMaster

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CG said...

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And if you love God you will keep his other commandments contained in his law. Not just these three. It never ceases to amaze me how you Protestants can say you love God, yet you hate his law, and grumble and find reasonings to try to discard his law to try to accommodate your own wicked lifestyles that are contrary to his law! You are the opposite of what a man after God's own heart wrote,

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but I can see that was probably misplaced. You, sir, are way out in left field...and the very reason why the Reformation was a good thing in its day. No one hates God's law, but when God says that it has been done away with, then it has been done away with, and no grumbling on your part will ever bring it back.

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Oh, how I love your law! I meditate on it all day long. (Psalm 119:97 [NIV])

The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple. (Psalm 19:7 [NIV])

And even what the prophets said,

"You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. (Nehemiah 9:13 [NIV])

True, but none of them mean that the law of Moses is still alive today to those who are in Christ...then you get real backwards and say...

Quote
Whoever says that the law is abolished has been deceived and is on a path to destruction
.

Actually, YOU are the one side-stepping, ignoring, and explaining away (and not very good, I might add) the passages that clearly state that the law of Moses has been abolished. It is you and your kind who Paul argues against in many places...you are a modern day Pharisee, and Paul tells you plainly that you are out in left field...

Sorry, but you are the one who is deceived and on the path to destruction and bondage.


Offline cgaviria

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CG said...

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And if you love God you will keep his other commandments contained in his law. Not just these three. It never ceases to amaze me how you Protestants can say you love God, yet you hate his law, and grumble and find reasonings to try to discard his law to try to accommodate your own wicked lifestyles that are contrary to his law! You are the opposite of what a man after God's own heart wrote,

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but I can see that was probably misplaced. You, sir, are way out in left field...and the very reason why the Reformation was a good thing in its day. No one hates God's law, but when God says that it has been done away with, then it has been done away with, and no grumbling on your part will ever bring it back.

Quote
Oh, how I love your law! I meditate on it all day long. (Psalm 119:97 [NIV])

The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple. (Psalm 19:7 [NIV])

And even what the prophets said,

"You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. (Nehemiah 9:13 [NIV])

True, but none of them mean that the law of Moses is still alive today to those who are in Christ...then you get real backwards and say...

Quote
Whoever says that the law is abolished has been deceived and is on a path to destruction
.

Actually, YOU are the one side-stepping, ignoring, and explaining away (and not very good, I might add) the passages that clearly state that the law of Moses has been abolished. It is you and your kind who Paul argues against in many places...you are a modern day Pharisee, and Paul tells you plainly that you are out in left field...

Sorry, but you are the one who is deceived and on the path to destruction and bondage.

Who is on a path to destruction,

A. The one who believes that the law has not been abolished, and will stop breaking the commands therein, to then receive the baptism of the holy spirit to cause him to fully obey the law which he himself could not do.

B. The one who believes the law is discarded, believes in Jesus but lives without law, "lawless", and never stops breaking the commands in the law, and as such never stops sinning, and subsequently also never receives the holy spirit.

I will address your other message later. I have been preoccupied with work and have not had a chance to refute your statements.

Offline Pkbrother

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Brothers
This is an extremely difficult subject...
Please respond if you agree yes or no
Try to get some agreement first then narrow down the areas where you disagree
Bothe of these views are too extreme as follows. IMO
One view all the Law of Moses is completely useless and done away.....vs......
The other view that the Law of Moses is still intact and Jesus didnt make any changes

Can we agree on these points????
1.  The ceremonial laws of the temple..animal sacrificies.......were done away with
Hebrews 10:18
Were replaced with the blood of Jesus..and therfore a new Priesthood

2. Alll scripture is inspired ....2 timothy 3:16
And the OT is still relevant......romans 15:4

3. The old covenant was replaced with the new covenant!!!
LUke 22:20... This is the new covenant in my blood

4. JEsus did not totally destroy the law of Moses but changed it????
Matthew 5:17.....did not coeme to destroy but fulfill the law

5.   JEsus made a change in the priesthood and the law
Hebrews 7:12... Priesthood is changed the law also must be changed
Hebrews 7:11-17
JEsus was not birthed through Levi or Aarans priesthood but through the tribe of Judah

If we can agree on these points then we can further look at and narrow down what Jesus and the writers in the NT were trying to get us to follow as we follow the new covenant

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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The new testament cannot be understood without the Old Testament
To get the correct setting
Remeber in the 1 st century they did not have the new testament
Only had the Apostles and then some of their writings were circulated
There were 3 main covenants in the Bible althouh God also made a covenant with Noah

2 covenants in the OT were exclusively talke about by Paul and compared to Christs covenant
Covenant means to cut....thus circumcision, killing animals.....
Hebrews 9:22 law purged with blood, without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
1. Covenant with Abraham made with blood....
2. Covenant made with Moses through blood.....
3. New covenant made through Christ through His own blood.....

Usually when Paul refers to the law he is talking about Moses covenant
The law was verbal for the most part until Moses....
GOds law preceaded Moses as murder, sabbath , animal sacrifices, tithes......in Genesis
Also there were priests melchizadek...before Moses
The law and covenant of Moses was reintroduced in a more basic and written way beacuse the Israelites had lost much of the verbal in the 400 years of Egypt slavery
Gal. 3:19
The law was given because of transgressions......(law of Moses)
The law shows us our sins....romans 7:7
The law of Moses was given in a basic elementary form until Christ came
Galations 3:24-25
The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ.....
After faith has come we are no longer under a tutor......
Much as you would relax rules with kids when they grow up. As they earn your trust..curfew,  movies......
jesus came to rightly divide the law
Coveting, lusts...are more than what is seen by men but what is seen by God in saecret....
Matthew 5:7
I came not to abolish the law but to fulfill the law.......
Animal sacrifices were no longer necesary because Jesus established a new covenant with His own blood
Luke 22:20
This cup is the new covenant in my blood.......
Although the law was fulfilled in Christ we are to follow the Spirit
As Jesus said the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth
John 16:13
If you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law
Galations 5:18
Best post here so far, although I can get with what chosenone said as well.

Offline Pkbrother

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I believe it is a mistake to cast away the Ot as useless.....
JEsus used the book of deuteronomy to rebuke the devil....it is written.....
To love the Lord is also to keep His commandments.......
John 14:15

JEsus specifically quoted the 10 commandments when they asked him what you must do to be saved...
LUke 18:18
Adultery. Mudrder lieing , honor your father and mother
And said ...you lack one thing...sell what you have and give to the poor"
This was commandment #10.  Covetousness

Therefore Jesus expanded and explained the law and showed how loving money will disqualify anyone from entering into heaven...
Luke 18:24.  How hard it is for a rich man to enter into heaven....
But did not compromise and said we could reject the love of money and enter heaven with Gods help
What is impossible with man is possible with God. ..... V.27

 Also Paul in romans 7:7....quotes the 10 commandments
I would not have known sin if it wqsnt for the law

So the law is there to show us our sins.......
Much like a police oficer is there to keep us from speeding...wrecks.....

JEsus expanded the meaning of the law and showed how God would look at our hearts
Matthew 5
Lust is adultery
Hate is murder
Dont pray if you have aught against a brother first reconcile
Love and bless your enemies
Pray in secret...dont get glory from men
Cannot serve God and mamon
Unforgiveness will disqualify anyone from Gods forgiveness and His,kingdom

It is more dificult to obey the new covenant because we must look at our motives........
But we can do this with the help of the Holy Spirit
Matthew 9:26
With God all things are possible

Offline SwordMaster

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CG said...

Quote
Who is on a path to destruction,

A. The one who believes that the law has not been abolished, and will stop breaking the commands therein, to then receive the baptism of the holy spirit to cause him to fully obey the law which he himself could not do.

B. The one who believes the law is discarded, believes in Jesus but lives without law, "lawless", and never stops breaking the commands in the law, and as such never stops sinning, and subsequently also never receives the holy spirit.

Part of the problem here is apparently your premise from the beginning (as it usually is).

First, The Scriptures clearly state that the law of Moses, along with the whole of the Old Covenant and EVERYTHING that came with it, has been abolished; and when we look at all of the passages that touch upon the subject matter, and study them according to a COMPLETE Biblical Hermeneutic (which you have not done, not yet, anyway), and harmonize all of them together...then we do indeed find that it has been done away with as far as the Christian is concerned, and replaced with the New Covenant and its new law, the Law of Christ.

Therefore, your "A" is misplaced not only in this fact, but also in the side issue that the Holy Spirit does NOT "cause" you, or anyone, to "fully obey the law which he himself could not do" as you put it. The Holy Spirit gives us the power to walk in obedience, but He does not cause you to...you are regurgitating stuff right out of calvinism here, and it is not Scriptural.

People could, and can, walk in obedience to the 10 Commandments...just as God told them that they could...unless, of course, you are calling God and the Scriptures liars...

Deuteronomy 30:11-15
"For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?'  Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?'  But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.  "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.”

Deuteronomy 30:19-20
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore, choose life, that you and your offspring may live, loving the LORD your God, obeying His voice and holding fast to Him, for He is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

And people HAVE done so...

Luke 1:5-6
In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, of the division of Abijah. And he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord.

Philippians 3:4-6
though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless.

Then you said...

Quote
B. The one who believes the law is discarded, believes in Jesus but lives without law, "lawless", and never stops breaking the commands in the law, and as such never stops sinning, and subsequently also never receives the holy spirit.

Negative...absolutely a nonsense argument derived from your own mind. The only ones who lives "without law" and that are "lawless" under the New Covenant is those who do not walk in obedience to its law, the Law of Christ, which replaced the law of Moses. You just don't seem to get that...in plain English, Jesus replaced Moses...in every way.

Also, your ideology of "receives the holy spirit" is a little out there too, apparently. You seem to be addressing the baptism of the Spirit as if it is the same thing as receiving the indwelling Spirit, and they are not the same thing. If the believer is in Christ - the living New Covenant of God - then he has the indwelling Spirit of God...but not every believer receives the baptism in the Spirit, if you believe otherwise then you are headlong in false doctrine centered within the exact opposite of real world experience. In other words, you are deceived there too.

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I will address your other message later. I have been preoccupied with work and have not had a chance to refute your statements.

Don't bother trying, because you can't "refute" the truth. What you have given is not according to the Scriptures, but rather out of your own mind, or given to you from somewhere else, but not the Scriptures.


Be careful at work.




Offline SwordMaster

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PKB said...

Quote
Brothers
This is an extremely difficult subject...
Please respond if you agree yes or no
Try to get some agreement first then narrow down the areas where you disagree
Bothe of these views are too extreme as follows. IMO
One view all the Law of Moses is completely useless and done away.....vs......
The other view that the Law of Moses is still intact and Jesus didnt make any changes

Actually, PK, there is a third view, which is more balanced and accurate: that the law of Moses and the Old Covenant has been abolished, being replaced by the New Covenant and the new law of that covenant, the Law of Christ. However, the law of Moses is only useless to those who are in the New Covenant, not to those in the world.

At that point, as Paul says in Galatians, the law of Moses points sinners to Christ, therefore it is not "completely useless," it still has a place in the world - but not in the life of the Christian.

Quote
Can we agree on these points????
1.  The ceremonial laws of the temple..animal sacrificies.......were done away with
Hebrews 10:18
Were replaced with the blood of Jesus..and therfore a new Priesthood

Absolutely true.

Quote
2. Alll scripture is inspired ....2 timothy 3:16
And the OT is still relevant......romans 15:4

Absolutely true.

Quote
3. The old covenant was replaced with the new covenant!!!
LUke 22:20... This is the new covenant in my blood

Absolutely true.

Quote
4. JEsus did not totally destroy the law of Moses but changed it????
Matthew 5:17.....did not coeme to destroy but fulfill the law

This is the main point of contention...

Quote
5.   JEsus made a change in the priesthood and the law
Hebrews 7:12... Priesthood is changed the law also must be changed
Hebrews 7:11-17
JEsus was not birthed through Levi or Aarans priesthood but through the tribe of Judah

Absolutely true.

Quote
If we can agree on these points then we can further look at and narrow down what Jesus and the writers in the NT were trying to get us to follow as we follow the new covenant

Yes, the main point of contention is that Jesus completely fulfilled the purpose of the law, which He had to in order to enter into His Messianic ministry...otherwise the Scripture could not say that He was tempted on all points just as we are, yet without sin. The FACT that Jesus is without sin, is a direct implication that He fulfilled the law..the whole law...all 600+ of them, but most importantly those of the covenant law of the 10 Commandments.

Ancient near eastern covenants were of two kinds: suzerain-vassal type covenants and peace accords between two equal nations or kingdoms. Both the Old and New Covenants follow the suzerain-vassal covenants, which had law. The covenant law was basically the obligations that the vassal king (which we fall under, since God is the Great Suzerain) had to maintain in order to keep peace between them...and if he failed to do his obligations, he broke the covenant and the suzerain would march against his kingdom, just like Nebuchadnezzer did when his "puppet king" in Jerusalem rebelled against him.

One covenant was never disannulled without the setting up of another to replace it, which normally took place when a new suzerain king was crowned after the old one had died. God patterned His covenants after these ANE covenants so that Israel would have complete understanding of what He was doing in salvation history. Obviously the Old Covenant didn't die...but when the new Great High Priest came into power (Christ), He abrogated and set aside the old covenant law (the 10 Commandments) and set up His law of the New Covenant, which is found spelled out in I John 3:23-24.

Love fulfills the OT law, but that does NOT mean that we are still under the OT law just because love fulfills it. The ONLY ones who are still under the law of Moses, are those who are NOT Christians...because those today that are under the law of Moses are those who are under the old schoolmaster of the law, working in their lives to bring them to Christ is showing them just how really sinful they really are.

Blessings!




Offline SwordMaster

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PK said...

Quote
It is more dificult to obey the new covenant because we must look at our motives........
But we can do this with the help of the Holy Spirit
Matthew 9:26
With God all things are possible


that is correct - to a certain extent. It would be completely correct if the law of the New Covenant was maintained by the Old Covenant, but under the New God deals with us, and our sin, on a whole other playing field (so-to-speak).

Under the New Covenant, the Law of Christ (which is choosing to place our trust in Him, and living a lifestyle of practicing loving on others) is fulfilled in us as we strive to love on others. The book of I John is what scholars and theologians call the covenant document of the NT Scriptures, and in it John explains how things work...it is actually quite simple. Those who argue against it are the ones who make things messy.

God looks at our motives and attitudes...and indeed, our motives are governed mainly by our emotions, while our attitudes come from the heart and mind. Sometimes our motives are slippery, meaning that we don't even understand why we do some of the things that we do...but our attitudes we are in full control of. Motives sometimes spring and flow from our sub-conscience, but not our attitudes - we choose our attitudes.

God deals with us according to our attitudes, because that is what we have control over. And when we have the attitude that Paul speaks of in Romans 7 where we desire to do what God wants us to do, then even when we do the exact opposite of that, we are not held accountable for it because it is the sin in our flesh that causes us to do those things.

Blessings!



Offline cgaviria

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CG said...

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This study explains why although the Law of Moses has not been abolished, nor can any command therein be disobeyed, certain commands are no longer observed, such as circumcision, festivals, sabbaths, and abstaining from certain foods. The study can be found in English here http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/02/24/explanation-of-the-foreshadows-of-the-law-of-moses-festivals-sacrifices-circumcision-sabbaths-foods/ or in Spanish here http://www.sabiduriadedios.co/2017/02/24/por-que-la-ley-no-es-abolida-sin-embargo-la-circuncision-festivales-sacrificios-sabados-alimentos-ya-no-se-observan/ . Let us begin a discussion on these matters.



Actually, your study is out the window here, because we have numerous passages that tells us that the law of Moses, hence the 10 Commandments, were fulfilled and abrogated by Christ. Here are just a few... which if I am not mistaken, you have already been given and yet decided to ignore them or explain them away for the bias you cling to. But here they are nonetheless...

Matthew 11:12-13
From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John,

Hebrews 10:9
then He added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Luke 16:16
The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.

Hebrews 8:13
In that He said a new covenant, He abrogates the first, and that which is abrogated and old is closed and disappearing.

Hebrews 7:12
For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

These should be self-explanatory, but if they are not, let me know and I will explain them.

Blessings!


First, concerning Hebrews 10:9. Jesus Christ did away with the old covenant, not with the law that came through the old covenant. Hence why we now have a new covenant, but NOT a new law, for until heaven and earth passes, the law will not pass.


You demonstrate that you know little concerning ancient near eastern covenants, and that the New Covenant (as well as the Old) are, and were fashioned, after them.

First...why did you begin with Hebrews instead of addressing (and skipping) the passages in Matthew and Luke?

Second, you are dead wrong. The law came through the Old Covenant, and is a part of the Old Covenant. Therefore, when the Old Covenant was abrogated, so was the law that came with it.

Third, you are not interpreting the "for until heaven and earth passes away, the law will not pass" part...Christ fulfilled the law, and the last thing that He did that fulfilled it was receiving baptism by John. The old law was not given primarily for Israel (or us) to fulfill, but was specifically the standard of holiness and righteousness for the Messiah to fulfill in order to fulfill His Messianic ministry.

If you go back and study Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy, you just might see that scarlet truth...

Quote
Second, concerning Ephesians 2:15, Jesus Christ didn't abolish the law, he annulled it, "made it of no effect", "made it inoperative", because even though this perfect law reveals everything that is sin, it does not give life, it kills. As such, it is in the new covenant, by receiving the holy spirit, that comes through mere belief in Jesus Christ, that a man is then made into a new creation, able to perfectly obey the law.


You are wrong on several points here, and show that you have a reformed understanding of the Scriptures, which is baseless on many counts.

First, the words abolished, annulled, made of no effect, made inoperative...all mean the same thing; you have a problem with definitions here.

Second, the law of Moses still has a job to do, just as Paul tells us in Galatians: its job today is to show people just how sinful they really are, in an effort to drive them to Christ. However, it has no bearing at all upon those who are in Christ.

Third, you do not receive the Spirit "through mere belief in Jesus Christ" and when you learn how to correctly study the Scriptures utilizing a complete Biblical Hermeneutic, you will be able to see that and come to the same conclusion (unless you let your bias dictate what you believe, rather than the Word of God).

Fourth...no one is able to "perfectly obey the law," and to say that demonstrates that you don't have enough life experience to be able to distinguish between false teachings and reality. No insult intended.

Fifth, you are calling Paul a liar, or stating that he didn't know what he was talking about. The text says that Christ "abolished the law of commandments expressed in ordinances" and you come right out of the gate saying that "Christ didn't abolish the law." Wow...you have an issue here...

Quote
Third, concerning Luke 16:16, "the law and prophets" were until John means that the giving forth of the law and the declaration of the prophets were UNTIL John, not that the law was abolished, nor what the prophets spoke. The prophets spoke of a new heaven and new earth, that has not yet come to pass, so without a doubt you are misinterpreting that statement to mean that both things are abolished.


Negative, I don't misinterpret it, I interpret it just as He said it, followed with many other passages that make your refutation silent at best. He said clearly, the law and the prophets, as they have to do with Him, were "until John." Look up the Greek word for "until" there...it means pretty much the same as "until" in English...meaning that it marks an end of something, the termination of something. Hence, the end and termination of the law of Moses and the prophets (the prophets as having to do with His first coming, NOT prophecies that have yet to come to pass).

Quote
Fourth, concerning Hebrews 8:13, again, the old covenant is gone, but the law that came through the old covenant has not yet vanished. It will vanish when heaven and earth disappear. Heaven and earth has not yet disappeared, so it is still in full effect.


Again, see my answer above directed at your "heaven and earth" understanding. Jesus used the same phraseology when addressing John the Baptist, telling people that he was "Elijah to come" and then a few passages further, tells them that "Elijah has already come." It is the same phraseology used in the "heaven and earth" passage in Matthew that you continually misinterpret from lack of experience in the Word. He said that it would not pass "until"...yet He has ALREADY fulfilled it before He even spoke those words.

Is He a liar, or a trickster? No, but He hardly ever spoke in plain language...you can look up why in Mat. 13:10-13...

Quote
Fifth, concerning Hebrews 7:12, there was indeed a change in the law. The manner in which the shadows of the law are observed. Such as Passover, such as Pentecost, circumcision etc, they are no longer observed in the literal manner they were commanded to be observed, but by the realities they foreshadowed. This was the change of the law in the new covenant. The change of the law is not abolishing the law.


You have a weird way of defining certain words in order to accommodate your theories. Change of law means just that, just as we changed one president for another...just as one commander of a military unit is changed to another. Change means that one ended and another took over...unless you believe in the "evolution" of law from one into another...and in that case you would be labeled a heretic.

Quote
Sixth, concerning Romans 7:6, being released from the law does not mean that the law is abolished nor that you are released from the law to disobey it. It means that you are released from the slavery of sin that the law reveals, and the condemnation of death that the law demands. Hence the terms, "freed from sin", and "freed from the law of sin and death".


Again, you are interpreting the passage according to your bias, not what the text actually states. I will grant that this passage does not actually state that the law has been abolished, but the others do make that clear statement...this one was just added for fluff, but it means the same thing.

Quote
All of this is pretty easy to understand.


Actually, you show that you have only a carnal understanding of them, which is why you didn't get even one of them correct. The plain truth of the matter is that the Old Covenant and its law were never designed for permanency, they were temporary, just as Paul states in Galatians. The law had its purpose, and when Christ came the purpose of the law was finished as it has to do with the righteous. Now it is through the Faith and the New Covenant and the new Law of Christ of that covenant.

Blessings!


Your answers are too long, so I'm going to keep this short, because it doesn't take much to throw everything you're saying out the door. Let us begin with one simple scripture, Jesus Christ said this,

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (Matthew 5:17 [NIV])

So if Jesus Christ did not come to abolish the law, why do you teach that the law is abolished? You're teaching the opposite of this scripture. A simple answer should suffice, if you are right.

Offline bel

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SwordMaster, From what I understand, Jesus did not fulfill all 600+ laws of the Mosaic Law as interpreted by the leaders of Israel at the time.
1. He broke the Sabbath-Matt. 12:1-14
2. He did not participate in the ceremonial washing before the meal Matt. 15:20
3. He overturned the money tables of those selling pigeons for sacrificial purposes in the temple. Matt.21:12-13

Jesus followed and taught the TRUE Laws of God which were, since the beginning of mankind, are, and always will be. Matt.15:9 says "And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."

This is why Israel fell(70 AD):
Hosea 4:14 "for the men themselves go apart with harlots and offer sacrifices with a ritual harlot. Therefore people who do not understand will be trampled."
Hosea 4:10 "For they shall eat, but not have enough, they shall commit harlotry but not increase because they have ceased obeying the Lord."
Hosea 4:1 "There is no truth or mercy or knowledge of God in the land."
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge, I also will reject you from being priest for Me because you have forgotten the law of God." 
 
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 21, 2017 - 12:40:47 by bel »

Offline Pkbrother

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Back to your first question!!!
Why was the law not abolished    But circumcision,  feativals.  Sbbaths not observed????

Genesis 17:11
Circumcision will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.......
This was the sign of the old covenant God made with Abraham

The Jews tried to bring this over to the new covenant and said
Acts 15:1
Unless you are circumcised acording to the law of Moses you cannot be saved"
Acts 15:5
Sect of Pharisees said "it is necesaary to circumcise them and to command them to keep the law of Moses"
This almost split the church and was a continual contention in the first century and even up to today!!
They all agrreed on the circumcision issue but did not completely define which parts of the Law of Moses should be kept and which ones should not be kept as maybe that apparently was suposed to be worked out in the individual churches

Back to circumcision
Since we are under a new covenant circumcision is not the sign
Galations1:1-2
Paul says ...did you recieve the Spirit by works of the law ar hearing of faith?
The sign of the new covenant is the Holy Sprirt!!,!
Ephesians 1:13-14
Specifically the fruits of the Spirit as Jesus said ....by their fruits......
This sign of salvation is more difiuclt to see than some physisical act......
Further this principle woulld apply to any physical ceremony that is used to show others you have committed to Christ.....ex.  CHurch membership, babtism, certain elementary doctrines
As listed in Hebrews 6:1-4.  Baptisms, eternal security, end times......
Hebrews says these are elementary doctrines and should not be made as salvation issues.....

I have been in churches that insisted these were salvation issues!!!!!

As far as festivals. Sabbaths......they are not salvation issues....but were probably observed more closely in the 1st century as they had Jewish leaders and continued to read the OT

I will say that any issue put forth as a salvation issue...that is not focused on the bearing of fruits...love joy peace.....but on some elementary doctrine is a galtion transgression and therefore a false teaching.

Galations 5:6
For in Christ neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything
But faith working throygh love

Offline bel

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Pkbrother, the Law of circumcision still applies today. Circumcision of the heart is and always has been a necessary requirement for salvation. Deut. 30:6  "Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of you descendants to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul so that you may live."
Deut. 10:16 "So circumcise your heart and stiffen your neck no longer."
Jer. 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the Lord and remove the foreskins of your heart, men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, or else My fury will go forth like fire and burn with none to quench it, because of your evil deeds."

 However, the leaders of Israel, who had no spiritual understanding of the Law of God mistook this to mean a literal cutting of the male organ. This practice may even have been started for hygienic purposes. From what I understand, it was never a Law according to God.

Jesus brings us back to the original meaning of circumcision(that of the heart) in John 7:22-23 "Moses therefore gave you circumcision(not that it was from Moses, but from the fathers) and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath, so that the law of Moses should not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath."
This is to say that Jesus was following the Law according to God not the law according to man.

Offline SwordMaster

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CG said...

Quote
Your answers are too long, so I'm going to keep this short, because it doesn't take much to throw everything you're saying out the door.


You demonstrate your ignorance of the Scriptures, my friend. There is nothing that you can say to 'overthrow' what I have given you to consider, except for the fact that you are not even considering what you have been shown. That is bias defending, not truth seeking...

Quote
A simple answer should suffice, if you are right.

Again, you demonstrate ignorance not only of the Scriptures, but how to correctly interpret them. You cannot take one "simple" passage for any stand...for or against the point of the OP, or for or against any subject matter in the Scriptures...and for you to think that you can, demonstrates that ignorance. You do not know very much about Biblical Hermeneutics, do you?

Quote
Let us begin with one simple scripture, Jesus Christ said this,

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (Matthew 5:17 [NIV])

So if Jesus Christ did not come to abolish the law, why do you teach that the law is abolished? You're teaching the opposite of this scripture.


Negative, young padowan. The FACT that I can produce (and have produced) 7 passages that clearly state that the law of Moses has been abrogated, and that you can only come up with one (which you are misinterpreting for your cause) that you *think* states otherwise...is evidence that you are arguing out of your bias rather than out of the Scriptures and their intended meaning.

Use the "long answer" excuse all you want to in effort to short circuit my posts, but you will fail nonetheless because you are in error. Paul theoretically shuts your mouth here...

Galatians 3:10
Because as many as adhere to the works of the law of Moses are under a curse: because it is written, "Cursed are all those who do not persevere in all that is written in the book of the law, to do them.

and

Galatians 5:2-3
2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.

This is what you are telling people...and it is the same thing that others were saying that Paul was trying to save people from...

Acts 15:1
But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

Acts 15:5
But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses."

As I state earlier which you evidently ignored, regarding the verse you consistently keep misinterpreting...

Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

1.  He had already fulfilled all the law, because if He had not, then He would not have been able to begin His Messianic ministry. He fulfilled all the law in His first 30 years of life...and if you disagree with that fact, then you have greater problems in your theology than you first appear to have.

2.  Having already fulfilled all the law, He abrogated it when He inaugurated the New Covenant at His baptism; from that moment forward, all that He did was in teaching about the New Covenant kingdom of God. Again, if you disagree on that point, then you are in really deep water.

3.  Jesus used the exact same teaching style which He utilized in addressing John the Baptist being the fulfillment of the Elijah prophecy...

Matthew 17:10-13
10 And the disciples asked him, "Then why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?"
11 He answered, "Elijah does come, and he will restore all things.
12 But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands."
13 Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist.

The only difference between how Jesus taught here about John, and about how He came to fulfill the law, is that in the passage above He immediately explains, AFTER speaking about Elijah as if his coming was still future tense, He explained to them that "Elijah has already come." Understand?

If you understood covenanting in this manner, then you would understand that with the inauguration of the New Covenant, the Old was automatically disanulled...if it has not been, then the New Covenant can not come into authority, and we are all still in our sins, needing to daily sacrifice animals for our sins.

Again, you are a modern day Pharisee, and you are in great error.


« Last Edit: Fri Apr 21, 2017 - 18:28:43 by SwordMaster »

Offline SwordMaster

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bel said...

Quote
SwordMaster, From what I understand, Jesus did not fulfill all 600+ laws of the Mosaic Law as interpreted by the leaders of Israel at the time.


bel, there is a difference between the actual law of Moses, the Torah, and what the Scribes added to the law over the course of hundreds of years called the Mishna and Gemara...which were their interpretations of case law. The Mishna and Gemara are NOT part of the law of Moses, and it is of these writings that you are mostly referring to.

Quote
1. He broke the Sabbath-Matt. 12:1-14

No, He broke what the Pharisees misinterpreted as breaking the law, and He set them straight when He taught on the subject, but they ignored Him. They were bias defenders, not truth seekers.

Quote
2. He did not participate in the ceremonial washing before the meal Matt. 15:20

That's because He had fulfilled the reason for the ceremonial part of hand washing, and His actions on that point was a teaching point on the subject. Again, hand washing was not part of the law, it was an interpretation and "tradition of the elders," and not anything that God ever told them to do.

Quote
3. He overturned the money tables of those selling pigeons for sacrificial purposes in the temple. Matt.21:12-13

You are killing me with this one...they were breaking the law by selling sacrificial animals INSIDE the temple. Go back and look at the directions for the tabernacle in Exodus, and show us where God provided a place for them to do such things. There was nothing that He did by this action that was in violation of any Israelite law.



Offline bel

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SwordMaster, As I wrote in my post, Jesus did not fulfill the 600+laws of the Mosaic Law as interpreted by the leaders of Israel at the time.

 According to Lev.17:8-9 "Whatever man of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among you, who offers a burnt offering or sacrifice and does not bring it to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, to offer it to the Lord, that man shall be cut off."

 Deut. 12:11 "then there will be the place where the Lord your God chooses to make His name abide. There you shall bring all I command you: your burnt offerings , your sacrifices your tithes the heave offerings of your hand and all your choice offerings which you vow to the Lord." The people were to bring specific sacrifices as outlined in the Old Testament. Animals such as sheep, oxen, doves and pigeons etc. had to be without blemish. This was not very feasible for the poor, many did not have the "proper" sacrifice and it was also a burden to those who traveled from afar. So selling such things at overinflated prices became a lucrative business.

As I mentioned before, the only Laws that Jesus fulfilled(followed) were the TRUE Laws of God that were there since mankind was first created and always will be. Jesus did not sacrifice animals because this was never required by God. 

Jeremiah 7:22 says this: "For in the day I brought them out of  the Land of Egypt, I did not speak to the fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices."

Isaiah 1:12-14 "When you come to appear before Me, who requires of you this trampling of My courts? Bring your worthless offerings no longer. Incense is an abomination to Me. New moon and Sabbath, the calling of assemblies, I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly. I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts. They have become a burden to Me. I am weary of bearing them. "   
« Last Edit: Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 03:17:52 by bel »

Offline Alan

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Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (Matthew 5:17 [NIV])

So if Jesus Christ did not come to abolish the law, why do you teach that the law is abolished? You're teaching the opposite of this scripture. A simple answer should suffice, if you are right.


Reading through this thread, it's quite obvious your understanding of Mat 5:17 is off the mark...


..If, however, the law of Moses bears the same relationship to men today, in terms of its binding status, then it was not fulfilled, and Jesus failed at what He came to do. On the other hand, if the Lord did accomplish His goal, then the law was fulfilled, and it is not a binding legal institution today. Further, if the law of Moses was not fulfilled by Christ—and thus remains as a binding legal system for today—then it is not just partially binding. Rather, it is a totally compelling system. Jesus plainly said that not one “jot or tittle” (representative of the smallest markings of the Hebrew script) would pass away until all was fulfilled. Consequently, nothing of the law was to fail until it had completely accomplished its purpose. Jesus fulfilled the law. Jesus fulfilled all of the law. We cannot say that Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial system, but did not fulfill the other aspects of the law. Jesus either fulfilled all of the law, or none of it. What Jesus' death means for the sacrificial system, it also means for the other aspects of the law.
(sic) GotQuestions

Online Jaime

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Hiw do we define "fulfill"?

I tend to look at it as to fill full that which had been emptied. Jesus did that very thing in Mathew 5 in the Sermon on the Mount. He filled full the law that had been emptied to just the Letter of the Law with the Spirit of the Law as God intended. His fulfilling of the law was filling full the Law to the status God intended and not what the Jews had decimated it to.
« Last Edit: Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 08:17:00 by Jaime »

Offline Alan

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Hiw do we define "fulfill"?

I tend to look at it as to fill full that which had been emptied. Jesus did that very thing in Mathew 5 in the Sermon on the Mount. He filled full the law that had been emptied to just the Letter of the Law with the Spirit of the Law as God intended. His fulfilling of the law was filling full the Law to the status God intended and not what the Jews had decimated it to.


Exactly Jaime! The very reason Jesus made amendments to the law was to get the heart involved rather than just the brain. People have such a difficult time understanding and accepting Mat 22:36-40, it's like they're lost without the full set of Ikea instructions, so in turn they cling to the law.

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Hiw do we define "fulfill"?

I tend to look at it as to fill full that which had been emptied. Jesus did that very thing in Mathew 5 in the Sermon on the Mount. He filled full the law that had been emptied to just the Letter of the Law with the Spirit of the Law as God intended. His fulfilling of the law was filling full the Law to the status God intended and not what the Jews had decimated it to.


Exactly Jaime! The very reason Jesus made amendments to the law was to get the heart involved rather than just the brain. People have such a difficult time understanding and accepting Mat 22:36-40, it's like they're lost without the full set of Ikea instructions, so in turn they cling to the law.

Laws don't require thinking.

That's why some are attracted to this "Law of Christ" concept.

 

     
anything