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Christian Interests => Theology Forum => Non-Traditional Theology => Topic started by: cgaviria on Thu Apr 13, 2017 - 23:37:11

Title: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: cgaviria on Thu Apr 13, 2017 - 23:37:11
This study explains why although the Law of Moses has not been abolished, nor can any command therein be disobeyed, certain commands are no longer observed, such as circumcision, festivals, sabbaths, and abstaining from certain foods. The study can be found in English here http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/02/24/explanation-of-the-foreshadows-of-the-law-of-moses-festivals-sacrifices-circumcision-sabbaths-foods/ (http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/02/24/explanation-of-the-foreshadows-of-the-law-of-moses-festivals-sacrifices-circumcision-sabbaths-foods/) or in Spanish here http://www.sabiduriadedios.co/2017/02/24/por-que-la-ley-no-es-abolida-sin-embargo-la-circuncision-festivales-sacrificios-sabados-alimentos-ya-no-se-observan/ (http://www.sabiduriadedios.co/2017/02/24/por-que-la-ley-no-es-abolida-sin-embargo-la-circuncision-festivales-sacrificios-sabados-alimentos-ya-no-se-observan/) . Let us begin a discussion on these matters.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: chosenone on Fri Apr 14, 2017 - 04:30:17
Paul tells us what we as gentile Christians need to do
Acts 21 v 25
With regard to the Gentiles who have believed, we have written a letter containing our decision that they should keep themselves from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality."
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: cgaviria on Fri Apr 14, 2017 - 05:09:36
Paul tells us what we as gentile Christians need to do
Acts 21 v 25
With regard to the Gentiles who have believed, we have written a letter containing our decision that they should keep themselves from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality."

Oh so "do not murder" does not apply? "Do not steal"?
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Jaime on Fri Apr 14, 2017 - 09:20:18
Think moral law vs ceremonial law.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Jason_NC on Fri Apr 14, 2017 - 10:40:44
Think moral law vs ceremonial law.

This.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: chosenone on Fri Apr 14, 2017 - 11:52:42
Paul tells us what we as gentile Christians need to do
Acts 21 v 25
With regard to the Gentiles who have believed, we have written a letter containing our decision that they should keep themselves from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality."

Oh so "do not murder" does not apply? "Do not steal"?

Christians are taught not to kill or steal, also its all part of loving others as you love yourself.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: cgaviria on Fri Apr 14, 2017 - 12:08:25
Paul tells us what we as gentile Christians need to do
Acts 21 v 25
With regard to the Gentiles who have believed, we have written a letter containing our decision that they should keep themselves from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality."

Oh so "do not murder" does not apply? "Do not steal"?

Christians are taught not to kill or steal, also its all part of loving others as you love yourself.

Where do you suppose "do not kill" came from? Where do you suppose "do not steal" came from? Even "love your neighbor as yourself", where do you suppose this command came from? These are all commandments of the law, open your eyes.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: notreligus on Fri Apr 14, 2017 - 12:18:16
Rom 2:14  For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
Rom 2:15  They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
Rom 2:16  on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3  For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4  in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:5  For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6  For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
Rom 8:7  For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
Rom 8:8  Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9  You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Rom 8:10  But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:14  For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Heb 8:13  In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The 613 commandments were all part of the Law.  They are contained within the Pentateuch, and that's why the Pentateuch is called the Law by Jews.    This was the constitution for the nation of Israel.

In Christ there is no more Jew and Gentile but one new man in Christ.

Eph 2:14  For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
Eph 2:15  by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
Eph 2:16  and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

1Ti 1:6  Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion,
1Ti 1:7  desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.
1Ti 1:8  Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
1Ti 1:9  understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers,
1Ti 1:10  the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,
1Ti 1:11  in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.
1Ti 1:12  I thank him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, appointing me to his service,
1Ti 1:13  though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief,
1Ti 1:14  and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15  The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.
1Ti 1:16  But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.
1Ti 1:17  To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

The purpose of the Law was to condemn.   In Christ we have been freed from the Law's condemnation.  Thus Christ rendered it obsolete.   Those who want to continue in the Law today are those who want to use it to condemn others.     

Those who are led by the Holy Spirit do not need to refer to a written list to know in their hearts that murder is wrong. 
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: 4WD on Fri Apr 14, 2017 - 14:13:54

Heb 8:13  In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Covenant and Law are two different things entirely.  He made the first covenant obsolete.  Nothing there says anything about making the Law obsolete.
Quote
Those who are led by the Holy Spirit do not need to refer to a written list to know in their hearts that murder is wrong.
Then I assume you think, erroneously, that those who are led by the Holy Spirit do not need to refer to anything written to understand what God intends for us.  If that were true, one wonders why He bothered to write anything, a list or otherwise.


Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Jaime on Fri Apr 14, 2017 - 15:26:58
The ten commandments are summed up by love God and love your neighbor. Live God and love your neighbor is NOT a replacement of the moral law, but a simplified summary OF that moral law.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Mon Apr 17, 2017 - 15:57:58
This study explains why although the Law of Moses has not been abolished, nor can any command therein be disobeyed, certain commands are no longer observed, such as circumcision, festivals, sabbaths, and abstaining from certain foods. The study can be found in English here [url]http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/02/24/explanation-of-the-foreshadows-of-the-law-of-moses-festivals-sacrifices-circumcision-sabbaths-foods/[/url] ([url]http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/02/24/explanation-of-the-foreshadows-of-the-law-of-moses-festivals-sacrifices-circumcision-sabbaths-foods/[/url]) or in Spanish here [url]http://www.sabiduriadedios.co/2017/02/24/por-que-la-ley-no-es-abolida-sin-embargo-la-circuncision-festivales-sacrificios-sabados-alimentos-ya-no-se-observan/[/url] ([url]http://www.sabiduriadedios.co/2017/02/24/por-que-la-ley-no-es-abolida-sin-embargo-la-circuncision-festivales-sacrificios-sabados-alimentos-ya-no-se-observan/[/url]) . Let us begin a discussion on these matters.



Actually, your study is out the window here, because we have numerous passages that tells us that the law of Moses, hence the 10 Commandments, were fulfilled and abrogated by Christ. Here are just a few... which if I am not mistaken, you have already been given and yet decided to ignore them or explain them away for the bias you cling to. But here they are nonetheless...

Matthew 11:12-13
From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John,

Hebrews 10:9
then He added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Luke 16:16
The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.

Hebrews 8:13
In that He said a new covenant, He abrogates the first, and that which is abrogated and old is closed and disappearing.

Hebrews 7:12
For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

These should be self-explanatory, but if they are not, let me know and I will explain them.

Blessings!

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: cgaviria on Mon Apr 17, 2017 - 19:20:51
This study explains why although the Law of Moses has not been abolished, nor can any command therein be disobeyed, certain commands are no longer observed, such as circumcision, festivals, sabbaths, and abstaining from certain foods. The study can be found in English here [url]http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/02/24/explanation-of-the-foreshadows-of-the-law-of-moses-festivals-sacrifices-circumcision-sabbaths-foods/[/url] ([url]http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/02/24/explanation-of-the-foreshadows-of-the-law-of-moses-festivals-sacrifices-circumcision-sabbaths-foods/[/url]) or in Spanish here [url]http://www.sabiduriadedios.co/2017/02/24/por-que-la-ley-no-es-abolida-sin-embargo-la-circuncision-festivales-sacrificios-sabados-alimentos-ya-no-se-observan/[/url] ([url]http://www.sabiduriadedios.co/2017/02/24/por-que-la-ley-no-es-abolida-sin-embargo-la-circuncision-festivales-sacrificios-sabados-alimentos-ya-no-se-observan/[/url]) . Let us begin a discussion on these matters.



Actually, your study is out the window here, because we have numerous passages that tells us that the law of Moses, hence the 10 Commandments, were fulfilled and abrogated by Christ. Here are just a few... which if I am not mistaken, you have already been given and yet decided to ignore them or explain them away for the bias you cling to. But here they are nonetheless...

Matthew 11:12-13
From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John,

Hebrews 10:9
then He added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Luke 16:16
The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.

Hebrews 8:13
In that He said a new covenant, He abrogates the first, and that which is abrogated and old is closed and disappearing.

Hebrews 7:12
For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

These should be self-explanatory, but if they are not, let me know and I will explain them.

Blessings!


First, concerning Hebrews 10:9. Jesus Christ did away with the old covenant, not with the law that came through the old covenant. Hence why we now have a new covenant, but NOT a new law, for until heaven and earth passes, the law will not pass.

Second, concerning Ephesians 2:15, Jesus Christ didn't abolish the law, he annulled it, "made it of no effect", "made it inoperative", because even though this perfect law reveals everything that is sin, it does not give life, it kills. As such, it is in the new covenant, by receiving the holy spirit, that comes through mere belief in Jesus Christ, that a man is then made into a new creation, able to perfectly obey the law.

Third, concerning Luke 16:16, "the law and prophets" were until John means that the giving forth of the law and the declaration of the prophets were UNTIL John, not that the law was abolished, nor what the prophets spoke. The prophets spoke of a new heaven and new earth, that has not yet come to pass, so without a doubt you are misinterpreting that statement to mean that both things are abolished.

Fourth, concerning Hebrews 8:13, again, the old covenant is gone, but the law that came through the old covenant has not yet vanished. It will vanish when heaven and earth disappear. Heaven and earth has not yet disappeared, so it is still in full effect.

Fifth, concerning Hebrews 7:12, there was indeed a change in the law. The manner in which the shadows of the law are observed. Such as Passover, such as Pentecost, circumcision etc, they are no longer observed in the literal manner they were commanded to be observed, but by the realities they foreshadowed. This was the change of the law in the new covenant. The change of the law is not abolishing the law.

Sixth, concerning Romans 7:6, being released from the law does not mean that the law is abolished nor that you are released from the law to disobey it. It means that you are released from the slavery of sin that the law reveals, and the condemnation of death that the law demands. Hence the terms, "freed from sin", and "freed from the law of sin and death".

All of this is pretty easy to understand.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Pkbrother on Mon Apr 17, 2017 - 21:02:07
The new testament cannot be understood without the Old Testament
To get the correct setting
Remeber in the 1 st century they did not have the new testament
Only had the Apostles and then some of their writings were circulated
There were 3 main covenants in the Bible althouh God also made a covenant with Noah

2 covenants in the OT were exclusively talke about by Paul and compared to Christs covenant
Covenant means to cut....thus circumcision, killing animals.....
Hebrews 9:22 law purged with blood, without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
1. Covenant with Abraham made with blood....
2. Covenant made with Moses through blood.....
3. New covenant made through Christ through His own blood.....

Usually when Paul refers to the law he is talking about Moses covenant
The law was verbal for the most part until Moses....
GOds law preceaded Moses as murder, sabbath , animal sacrifices, tithes......in Genesis
Also there were priests melchizadek...before Moses
The law and covenant of Moses was reintroduced in a more basic and written way beacuse the Israelites had lost much of the verbal in the 400 years of Egypt slavery
Gal. 3:19
The law was given because of transgressions......(law of Moses)
The law shows us our sins....romans 7:7
The law of Moses was given in a basic elementary form until Christ came
Galations 3:24-25
The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ.....
After faith has come we are no longer under a tutor......
Much as you would relax rules with kids when they grow up. As they earn your trust..curfew,  movies......
jesus came to rightly divide the law
Coveting, lusts...are more than what is seen by men but what is seen by God in saecret....
Matthew 5:7
I came not to abolish the law but to fulfill the law.......
Animal sacrifices were no longer necesary because Jesus established a new covenant with His own blood
Luke 22:20
This cup is the new covenant in my blood.......
Although the law was fulfilled in Christ we are to follow the Spirit
As Jesus said the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth
John 16:13
If you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law
Galations 5:18
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Tue Apr 18, 2017 - 01:19:47
CG said...

Quote
This study explains why although the Law of Moses has not been abolished, nor can any command therein be disobeyed, certain commands are no longer observed, such as circumcision, festivals, sabbaths, and abstaining from certain foods. The study can be found in English here [url]http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/02/24/explanation-of-the-foreshadows-of-the-law-of-moses-festivals-sacrifices-circumcision-sabbaths-foods/[/url] ([url]http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/02/24/explanation-of-the-foreshadows-of-the-law-of-moses-festivals-sacrifices-circumcision-sabbaths-foods/[/url]) or in Spanish here [url]http://www.sabiduriadedios.co/2017/02/24/por-que-la-ley-no-es-abolida-sin-embargo-la-circuncision-festivales-sacrificios-sabados-alimentos-ya-no-se-observan/[/url] ([url]http://www.sabiduriadedios.co/2017/02/24/por-que-la-ley-no-es-abolida-sin-embargo-la-circuncision-festivales-sacrificios-sabados-alimentos-ya-no-se-observan/[/url]) . Let us begin a discussion on these matters.



Actually, your study is out the window here, because we have numerous passages that tells us that the law of Moses, hence the 10 Commandments, were fulfilled and abrogated by Christ. Here are just a few... which if I am not mistaken, you have already been given and yet decided to ignore them or explain them away for the bias you cling to. But here they are nonetheless...

Matthew 11:12-13
From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John,

Hebrews 10:9
then He added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Luke 16:16
The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.

Hebrews 8:13
In that He said a new covenant, He abrogates the first, and that which is abrogated and old is closed and disappearing.

Hebrews 7:12
For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

These should be self-explanatory, but if they are not, let me know and I will explain them.

Blessings!


First, concerning Hebrews 10:9. Jesus Christ did away with the old covenant, not with the law that came through the old covenant. Hence why we now have a new covenant, but NOT a new law, for until heaven and earth passes, the law will not pass.


You demonstrate that you know little concerning ancient near eastern covenants, and that the New Covenant (as well as the Old) are, and were fashioned, after them.

First...why did you begin with Hebrews instead of addressing (and skipping) the passages in Matthew and Luke?

Second, you are dead wrong. The law came through the Old Covenant, and is a part of the Old Covenant. Therefore, when the Old Covenant was abrogated, so was the law that came with it.

Third, you are not interpreting the "for until heaven and earth passes away, the law will not pass" part...Christ fulfilled the law, and the last thing that He did that fulfilled it was receiving baptism by John. The old law was not given primarily for Israel (or us) to fulfill, but was specifically the standard of holiness and righteousness for the Messiah to fulfill in order to fulfill His Messianic ministry.

If you go back and study Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy, you just might see that scarlet truth...

Quote
Second, concerning Ephesians 2:15, Jesus Christ didn't abolish the law, he annulled it, "made it of no effect", "made it inoperative", because even though this perfect law reveals everything that is sin, it does not give life, it kills. As such, it is in the new covenant, by receiving the holy spirit, that comes through mere belief in Jesus Christ, that a man is then made into a new creation, able to perfectly obey the law.


You are wrong on several points here, and show that you have a reformed understanding of the Scriptures, which is baseless on many counts.

First, the words abolished, annulled, made of no effect, made inoperative...all mean the same thing; you have a problem with definitions here.

Second, the law of Moses still has a job to do, just as Paul tells us in Galatians: its job today is to show people just how sinful they really are, in an effort to drive them to Christ. However, it has no bearing at all upon those who are in Christ.

Third, you do not receive the Spirit "through mere belief in Jesus Christ" and when you learn how to correctly study the Scriptures utilizing a complete Biblical Hermeneutic, you will be able to see that and come to the same conclusion (unless you let your bias dictate what you believe, rather than the Word of God).

Fourth...no one is able to "perfectly obey the law," and to say that demonstrates that you don't have enough life experience to be able to distinguish between false teachings and reality. No insult intended.

Fifth, you are calling Paul a liar, or stating that he didn't know what he was talking about. The text says that Christ "abolished the law of commandments expressed in ordinances" and you come right out of the gate saying that "Christ didn't abolish the law." Wow...you have an issue here...

Quote
Third, concerning Luke 16:16, "the law and prophets" were until John means that the giving forth of the law and the declaration of the prophets were UNTIL John, not that the law was abolished, nor what the prophets spoke. The prophets spoke of a new heaven and new earth, that has not yet come to pass, so without a doubt you are misinterpreting that statement to mean that both things are abolished.


Negative, I don't misinterpret it, I interpret it just as He said it, followed with many other passages that make your refutation silent at best. He said clearly, the law and the prophets, as they have to do with Him, were "until John." Look up the Greek word for "until" there...it means pretty much the same as "until" in English...meaning that it marks an end of something, the termination of something. Hence, the end and termination of the law of Moses and the prophets (the prophets as having to do with His first coming, NOT prophecies that have yet to come to pass).

Quote
Fourth, concerning Hebrews 8:13, again, the old covenant is gone, but the law that came through the old covenant has not yet vanished. It will vanish when heaven and earth disappear. Heaven and earth has not yet disappeared, so it is still in full effect.


Again, see my answer above directed at your "heaven and earth" understanding. Jesus used the same phraseology when addressing John the Baptist, telling people that he was "Elijah to come" and then a few passages further, tells them that "Elijah has already come." It is the same phraseology used in the "heaven and earth" passage in Matthew that you continually misinterpret from lack of experience in the Word. He said that it would not pass "until"...yet He has ALREADY fulfilled it before He even spoke those words.

Is He a liar, or a trickster? No, but He hardly ever spoke in plain language...you can look up why in Mat. 13:10-13...

Quote
Fifth, concerning Hebrews 7:12, there was indeed a change in the law. The manner in which the shadows of the law are observed. Such as Passover, such as Pentecost, circumcision etc, they are no longer observed in the literal manner they were commanded to be observed, but by the realities they foreshadowed. This was the change of the law in the new covenant. The change of the law is not abolishing the law.


You have a weird way of defining certain words in order to accommodate your theories. Change of law means just that, just as we changed one president for another...just as one commander of a military unit is changed to another. Change means that one ended and another took over...unless you believe in the "evolution" of law from one into another...and in that case you would be labeled a heretic.

Quote
Sixth, concerning Romans 7:6, being released from the law does not mean that the law is abolished nor that you are released from the law to disobey it. It means that you are released from the slavery of sin that the law reveals, and the condemnation of death that the law demands. Hence the terms, "freed from sin", and "freed from the law of sin and death".


Again, you are interpreting the passage according to your bias, not what the text actually states. I will grant that this passage does not actually state that the law has been abolished, but the others do make that clear statement...this one was just added for fluff, but it means the same thing.

Quote
All of this is pretty easy to understand.


Actually, you show that you have only a carnal understanding of them, which is why you didn't get even one of them correct. The plain truth of the matter is that the Old Covenant and its law were never designed for permanency, they were temporary, just as Paul states in Galatians. The law had its purpose, and when Christ came the purpose of the law was finished as it has to do with the righteous. Now it is through the Faith and the New Covenant and the new Law of Christ of that covenant.

Blessings!


Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: chosenone on Tue Apr 18, 2017 - 03:28:19
Paul tells us what we as gentile Christians need to do
Acts 21 v 25
With regard to the Gentiles who have believed, we have written a letter containing our decision that they should keep themselves from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality."

Oh so "do not murder" does not apply? "Do not steal"?

Christians are taught not to kill or steal, also its all part of loving others as you love yourself.

Where do you suppose "do not kill" came from? Where do you suppose "do not steal" came from? Even "love your neighbor as yourself", where do you suppose this command came from? These are all commandments of the law, open your eyes.
 


A christian shouldnt even need to be told not to do those things. If we love God and love our neighbour we wont kill them or steal from them.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: cgaviria on Tue Apr 18, 2017 - 12:04:57
Paul tells us what we as gentile Christians need to do
Acts 21 v 25
With regard to the Gentiles who have believed, we have written a letter containing our decision that they should keep themselves from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality."

Oh so "do not murder" does not apply? "Do not steal"?

Christians are taught not to kill or steal, also its all part of loving others as you love yourself.

Where do you suppose "do not kill" came from? Where do you suppose "do not steal" came from? Even "love your neighbor as yourself", where do you suppose this command came from? These are all commandments of the law, open your eyes.
 


A christian shouldnt even need to be told not to do those things. If we love God and love our neighbour we wont kill them or steal from them.

And if you love God you will keep his other commandments contained in his law. Not just these three. It never ceases to amaze me how you Protestants can say you love God, yet you hate his law, and grumble and find reasonings to try to discard his law to try to accommodate your own wicked lifestyles that are contrary to his law! You are the opposite of what a man after God's own heart wrote,

Oh, how I love your law! I meditate on it all day long. (Psalm 119:97 [NIV])

The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple. (Psalm 19:7 [NIV])

And even what the prophets said,

"You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. (Nehemiah 9:13 [NIV])

Whoever says that the law is abolished has been deceived and is on a path to destruction.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Tue Apr 18, 2017 - 12:44:43
CG said...

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And if you love God you will keep his other commandments contained in his law. Not just these three. It never ceases to amaze me how you Protestants can say you love God, yet you hate his law, and grumble and find reasonings to try to discard his law to try to accommodate your own wicked lifestyles that are contrary to his law! You are the opposite of what a man after God's own heart wrote,

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but I can see that was probably misplaced. You, sir, are way out in left field...and the very reason why the Reformation was a good thing in its day. No one hates God's law, but when God says that it has been done away with, then it has been done away with, and no grumbling on your part will ever bring it back.

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Oh, how I love your law! I meditate on it all day long. (Psalm 119:97 [NIV])

The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple. (Psalm 19:7 [NIV])

And even what the prophets said,

"You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. (Nehemiah 9:13 [NIV])

True, but none of them mean that the law of Moses is still alive today to those who are in Christ...then you get real backwards and say...

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Whoever says that the law is abolished has been deceived and is on a path to destruction
.

Actually, YOU are the one side-stepping, ignoring, and explaining away (and not very good, I might add) the passages that clearly state that the law of Moses has been abolished. It is you and your kind who Paul argues against in many places...you are a modern day Pharisee, and Paul tells you plainly that you are out in left field...

Sorry, but you are the one who is deceived and on the path to destruction and bondage.

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: cgaviria on Tue Apr 18, 2017 - 13:03:43
CG said...

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And if you love God you will keep his other commandments contained in his law. Not just these three. It never ceases to amaze me how you Protestants can say you love God, yet you hate his law, and grumble and find reasonings to try to discard his law to try to accommodate your own wicked lifestyles that are contrary to his law! You are the opposite of what a man after God's own heart wrote,

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but I can see that was probably misplaced. You, sir, are way out in left field...and the very reason why the Reformation was a good thing in its day. No one hates God's law, but when God says that it has been done away with, then it has been done away with, and no grumbling on your part will ever bring it back.

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Oh, how I love your law! I meditate on it all day long. (Psalm 119:97 [NIV])

The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple. (Psalm 19:7 [NIV])

And even what the prophets said,

"You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. (Nehemiah 9:13 [NIV])

True, but none of them mean that the law of Moses is still alive today to those who are in Christ...then you get real backwards and say...

Quote
Whoever says that the law is abolished has been deceived and is on a path to destruction
.

Actually, YOU are the one side-stepping, ignoring, and explaining away (and not very good, I might add) the passages that clearly state that the law of Moses has been abolished. It is you and your kind who Paul argues against in many places...you are a modern day Pharisee, and Paul tells you plainly that you are out in left field...

Sorry, but you are the one who is deceived and on the path to destruction and bondage.

Who is on a path to destruction,

A. The one who believes that the law has not been abolished, and will stop breaking the commands therein, to then receive the baptism of the holy spirit to cause him to fully obey the law which he himself could not do.

B. The one who believes the law is discarded, believes in Jesus but lives without law, "lawless", and never stops breaking the commands in the law, and as such never stops sinning, and subsequently also never receives the holy spirit.

I will address your other message later. I have been preoccupied with work and have not had a chance to refute your statements.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Pkbrother on Tue Apr 18, 2017 - 13:39:26
Brothers
This is an extremely difficult subject...
Please respond if you agree yes or no
Try to get some agreement first then narrow down the areas where you disagree
Bothe of these views are too extreme as follows. IMO
One view all the Law of Moses is completely useless and done away.....vs......
The other view that the Law of Moses is still intact and Jesus didnt make any changes

Can we agree on these points????
1.  The ceremonial laws of the temple..animal sacrificies.......were done away with
Hebrews 10:18
Were replaced with the blood of Jesus..and therfore a new Priesthood

2. Alll scripture is inspired ....2 timothy 3:16
And the OT is still relevant......romans 15:4

3. The old covenant was replaced with the new covenant!!!
LUke 22:20... This is the new covenant in my blood

4. JEsus did not totally destroy the law of Moses but changed it????
Matthew 5:17.....did not coeme to destroy but fulfill the law

5.   JEsus made a change in the priesthood and the law
Hebrews 7:12... Priesthood is changed the law also must be changed
Hebrews 7:11-17
JEsus was not birthed through Levi or Aarans priesthood but through the tribe of Judah

If we can agree on these points then we can further look at and narrow down what Jesus and the writers in the NT were trying to get us to follow as we follow the new covenant
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Apr 18, 2017 - 14:26:43
The new testament cannot be understood without the Old Testament
To get the correct setting
Remeber in the 1 st century they did not have the new testament
Only had the Apostles and then some of their writings were circulated
There were 3 main covenants in the Bible althouh God also made a covenant with Noah

2 covenants in the OT were exclusively talke about by Paul and compared to Christs covenant
Covenant means to cut....thus circumcision, killing animals.....
Hebrews 9:22 law purged with blood, without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
1. Covenant with Abraham made with blood....
2. Covenant made with Moses through blood.....
3. New covenant made through Christ through His own blood.....

Usually when Paul refers to the law he is talking about Moses covenant
The law was verbal for the most part until Moses....
GOds law preceaded Moses as murder, sabbath , animal sacrifices, tithes......in Genesis
Also there were priests melchizadek...before Moses
The law and covenant of Moses was reintroduced in a more basic and written way beacuse the Israelites had lost much of the verbal in the 400 years of Egypt slavery
Gal. 3:19
The law was given because of transgressions......(law of Moses)
The law shows us our sins....romans 7:7
The law of Moses was given in a basic elementary form until Christ came
Galations 3:24-25
The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ.....
After faith has come we are no longer under a tutor......
Much as you would relax rules with kids when they grow up. As they earn your trust..curfew,  movies......
jesus came to rightly divide the law
Coveting, lusts...are more than what is seen by men but what is seen by God in saecret....
Matthew 5:7
I came not to abolish the law but to fulfill the law.......
Animal sacrifices were no longer necesary because Jesus established a new covenant with His own blood
Luke 22:20
This cup is the new covenant in my blood.......
Although the law was fulfilled in Christ we are to follow the Spirit
As Jesus said the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth
John 16:13
If you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law
Galations 5:18
Best post here so far, although I can get with what chosenone said as well.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Pkbrother on Tue Apr 18, 2017 - 22:51:39
I believe it is a mistake to cast away the Ot as useless.....
JEsus used the book of deuteronomy to rebuke the devil....it is written.....
To love the Lord is also to keep His commandments.......
John 14:15

JEsus specifically quoted the 10 commandments when they asked him what you must do to be saved...
LUke 18:18
Adultery. Mudrder lieing , honor your father and mother
And said ...you lack one thing...sell what you have and give to the poor"
This was commandment #10.  Covetousness

Therefore Jesus expanded and explained the law and showed how loving money will disqualify anyone from entering into heaven...
Luke 18:24.  How hard it is for a rich man to enter into heaven....
But did not compromise and said we could reject the love of money and enter heaven with Gods help
What is impossible with man is possible with God. ..... V.27

 Also Paul in romans 7:7....quotes the 10 commandments
I would not have known sin if it wqsnt for the law

So the law is there to show us our sins.......
Much like a police oficer is there to keep us from speeding...wrecks.....

JEsus expanded the meaning of the law and showed how God would look at our hearts
Matthew 5
Lust is adultery
Hate is murder
Dont pray if you have aught against a brother first reconcile
Love and bless your enemies
Pray in secret...dont get glory from men
Cannot serve God and mamon
Unforgiveness will disqualify anyone from Gods forgiveness and His,kingdom

It is more dificult to obey the new covenant because we must look at our motives........
But we can do this with the help of the Holy Spirit
Matthew 9:26
With God all things are possible
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Wed Apr 19, 2017 - 13:03:00
CG said...

Quote
Who is on a path to destruction,

A. The one who believes that the law has not been abolished, and will stop breaking the commands therein, to then receive the baptism of the holy spirit to cause him to fully obey the law which he himself could not do.

B. The one who believes the law is discarded, believes in Jesus but lives without law, "lawless", and never stops breaking the commands in the law, and as such never stops sinning, and subsequently also never receives the holy spirit.

Part of the problem here is apparently your premise from the beginning (as it usually is).

First, The Scriptures clearly state that the law of Moses, along with the whole of the Old Covenant and EVERYTHING that came with it, has been abolished; and when we look at all of the passages that touch upon the subject matter, and study them according to a COMPLETE Biblical Hermeneutic (which you have not done, not yet, anyway), and harmonize all of them together...then we do indeed find that it has been done away with as far as the Christian is concerned, and replaced with the New Covenant and its new law, the Law of Christ.

Therefore, your "A" is misplaced not only in this fact, but also in the side issue that the Holy Spirit does NOT "cause" you, or anyone, to "fully obey the law which he himself could not do" as you put it. The Holy Spirit gives us the power to walk in obedience, but He does not cause you to...you are regurgitating stuff right out of calvinism here, and it is not Scriptural.

People could, and can, walk in obedience to the 10 Commandments...just as God told them that they could...unless, of course, you are calling God and the Scriptures liars...

Deuteronomy 30:11-15
"For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?'  Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?'  But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.  "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.”

Deuteronomy 30:19-20
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore, choose life, that you and your offspring may live, loving the LORD your God, obeying His voice and holding fast to Him, for He is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

And people HAVE done so...

Luke 1:5-6
In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, of the division of Abijah. And he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord.

Philippians 3:4-6
though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless.

Then you said...

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B. The one who believes the law is discarded, believes in Jesus but lives without law, "lawless", and never stops breaking the commands in the law, and as such never stops sinning, and subsequently also never receives the holy spirit.

Negative...absolutely a nonsense argument derived from your own mind. The only ones who lives "without law" and that are "lawless" under the New Covenant is those who do not walk in obedience to its law, the Law of Christ, which replaced the law of Moses. You just don't seem to get that...in plain English, Jesus replaced Moses...in every way.

Also, your ideology of "receives the holy spirit" is a little out there too, apparently. You seem to be addressing the baptism of the Spirit as if it is the same thing as receiving the indwelling Spirit, and they are not the same thing. If the believer is in Christ - the living New Covenant of God - then he has the indwelling Spirit of God...but not every believer receives the baptism in the Spirit, if you believe otherwise then you are headlong in false doctrine centered within the exact opposite of real world experience. In other words, you are deceived there too.

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I will address your other message later. I have been preoccupied with work and have not had a chance to refute your statements.

Don't bother trying, because you can't "refute" the truth. What you have given is not according to the Scriptures, but rather out of your own mind, or given to you from somewhere else, but not the Scriptures.


Be careful at work.



Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Wed Apr 19, 2017 - 13:19:25
PKB said...

Quote
Brothers
This is an extremely difficult subject...
Please respond if you agree yes or no
Try to get some agreement first then narrow down the areas where you disagree
Bothe of these views are too extreme as follows. IMO
One view all the Law of Moses is completely useless and done away.....vs......
The other view that the Law of Moses is still intact and Jesus didnt make any changes

Actually, PK, there is a third view, which is more balanced and accurate: that the law of Moses and the Old Covenant has been abolished, being replaced by the New Covenant and the new law of that covenant, the Law of Christ. However, the law of Moses is only useless to those who are in the New Covenant, not to those in the world.

At that point, as Paul says in Galatians, the law of Moses points sinners to Christ, therefore it is not "completely useless," it still has a place in the world - but not in the life of the Christian.

Quote
Can we agree on these points????
1.  The ceremonial laws of the temple..animal sacrificies.......were done away with
Hebrews 10:18
Were replaced with the blood of Jesus..and therfore a new Priesthood

Absolutely true.

Quote
2. Alll scripture is inspired ....2 timothy 3:16
And the OT is still relevant......romans 15:4

Absolutely true.

Quote
3. The old covenant was replaced with the new covenant!!!
LUke 22:20... This is the new covenant in my blood

Absolutely true.

Quote
4. JEsus did not totally destroy the law of Moses but changed it????
Matthew 5:17.....did not coeme to destroy but fulfill the law

This is the main point of contention...

Quote
5.   JEsus made a change in the priesthood and the law
Hebrews 7:12... Priesthood is changed the law also must be changed
Hebrews 7:11-17
JEsus was not birthed through Levi or Aarans priesthood but through the tribe of Judah

Absolutely true.

Quote
If we can agree on these points then we can further look at and narrow down what Jesus and the writers in the NT were trying to get us to follow as we follow the new covenant

Yes, the main point of contention is that Jesus completely fulfilled the purpose of the law, which He had to in order to enter into His Messianic ministry...otherwise the Scripture could not say that He was tempted on all points just as we are, yet without sin. The FACT that Jesus is without sin, is a direct implication that He fulfilled the law..the whole law...all 600+ of them, but most importantly those of the covenant law of the 10 Commandments.

Ancient near eastern covenants were of two kinds: suzerain-vassal type covenants and peace accords between two equal nations or kingdoms. Both the Old and New Covenants follow the suzerain-vassal covenants, which had law. The covenant law was basically the obligations that the vassal king (which we fall under, since God is the Great Suzerain) had to maintain in order to keep peace between them...and if he failed to do his obligations, he broke the covenant and the suzerain would march against his kingdom, just like Nebuchadnezzer did when his "puppet king" in Jerusalem rebelled against him.

One covenant was never disannulled without the setting up of another to replace it, which normally took place when a new suzerain king was crowned after the old one had died. God patterned His covenants after these ANE covenants so that Israel would have complete understanding of what He was doing in salvation history. Obviously the Old Covenant didn't die...but when the new Great High Priest came into power (Christ), He abrogated and set aside the old covenant law (the 10 Commandments) and set up His law of the New Covenant, which is found spelled out in I John 3:23-24.

Love fulfills the OT law, but that does NOT mean that we are still under the OT law just because love fulfills it. The ONLY ones who are still under the law of Moses, are those who are NOT Christians...because those today that are under the law of Moses are those who are under the old schoolmaster of the law, working in their lives to bring them to Christ is showing them just how really sinful they really are.

Blessings!



Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Wed Apr 19, 2017 - 13:27:53
PK said...

Quote
It is more dificult to obey the new covenant because we must look at our motives........
But we can do this with the help of the Holy Spirit
Matthew 9:26
With God all things are possible


that is correct - to a certain extent. It would be completely correct if the law of the New Covenant was maintained by the Old Covenant, but under the New God deals with us, and our sin, on a whole other playing field (so-to-speak).

Under the New Covenant, the Law of Christ (which is choosing to place our trust in Him, and living a lifestyle of practicing loving on others) is fulfilled in us as we strive to love on others. The book of I John is what scholars and theologians call the covenant document of the NT Scriptures, and in it John explains how things work...it is actually quite simple. Those who argue against it are the ones who make things messy.

God looks at our motives and attitudes...and indeed, our motives are governed mainly by our emotions, while our attitudes come from the heart and mind. Sometimes our motives are slippery, meaning that we don't even understand why we do some of the things that we do...but our attitudes we are in full control of. Motives sometimes spring and flow from our sub-conscience, but not our attitudes - we choose our attitudes.

God deals with us according to our attitudes, because that is what we have control over. And when we have the attitude that Paul speaks of in Romans 7 where we desire to do what God wants us to do, then even when we do the exact opposite of that, we are not held accountable for it because it is the sin in our flesh that causes us to do those things.

Blessings!


Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: cgaviria on Fri Apr 21, 2017 - 08:17:36
CG said...

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This study explains why although the Law of Moses has not been abolished, nor can any command therein be disobeyed, certain commands are no longer observed, such as circumcision, festivals, sabbaths, and abstaining from certain foods. The study can be found in English here [url]http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/02/24/explanation-of-the-foreshadows-of-the-law-of-moses-festivals-sacrifices-circumcision-sabbaths-foods/[/url] ([url]http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/02/24/explanation-of-the-foreshadows-of-the-law-of-moses-festivals-sacrifices-circumcision-sabbaths-foods/[/url]) or in Spanish here [url]http://www.sabiduriadedios.co/2017/02/24/por-que-la-ley-no-es-abolida-sin-embargo-la-circuncision-festivales-sacrificios-sabados-alimentos-ya-no-se-observan/[/url] ([url]http://www.sabiduriadedios.co/2017/02/24/por-que-la-ley-no-es-abolida-sin-embargo-la-circuncision-festivales-sacrificios-sabados-alimentos-ya-no-se-observan/[/url]) . Let us begin a discussion on these matters.



Actually, your study is out the window here, because we have numerous passages that tells us that the law of Moses, hence the 10 Commandments, were fulfilled and abrogated by Christ. Here are just a few... which if I am not mistaken, you have already been given and yet decided to ignore them or explain them away for the bias you cling to. But here they are nonetheless...

Matthew 11:12-13
From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John,

Hebrews 10:9
then He added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Luke 16:16
The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.

Hebrews 8:13
In that He said a new covenant, He abrogates the first, and that which is abrogated and old is closed and disappearing.

Hebrews 7:12
For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

These should be self-explanatory, but if they are not, let me know and I will explain them.

Blessings!


First, concerning Hebrews 10:9. Jesus Christ did away with the old covenant, not with the law that came through the old covenant. Hence why we now have a new covenant, but NOT a new law, for until heaven and earth passes, the law will not pass.


You demonstrate that you know little concerning ancient near eastern covenants, and that the New Covenant (as well as the Old) are, and were fashioned, after them.

First...why did you begin with Hebrews instead of addressing (and skipping) the passages in Matthew and Luke?

Second, you are dead wrong. The law came through the Old Covenant, and is a part of the Old Covenant. Therefore, when the Old Covenant was abrogated, so was the law that came with it.

Third, you are not interpreting the "for until heaven and earth passes away, the law will not pass" part...Christ fulfilled the law, and the last thing that He did that fulfilled it was receiving baptism by John. The old law was not given primarily for Israel (or us) to fulfill, but was specifically the standard of holiness and righteousness for the Messiah to fulfill in order to fulfill His Messianic ministry.

If you go back and study Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy, you just might see that scarlet truth...

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Second, concerning Ephesians 2:15, Jesus Christ didn't abolish the law, he annulled it, "made it of no effect", "made it inoperative", because even though this perfect law reveals everything that is sin, it does not give life, it kills. As such, it is in the new covenant, by receiving the holy spirit, that comes through mere belief in Jesus Christ, that a man is then made into a new creation, able to perfectly obey the law.


You are wrong on several points here, and show that you have a reformed understanding of the Scriptures, which is baseless on many counts.

First, the words abolished, annulled, made of no effect, made inoperative...all mean the same thing; you have a problem with definitions here.

Second, the law of Moses still has a job to do, just as Paul tells us in Galatians: its job today is to show people just how sinful they really are, in an effort to drive them to Christ. However, it has no bearing at all upon those who are in Christ.

Third, you do not receive the Spirit "through mere belief in Jesus Christ" and when you learn how to correctly study the Scriptures utilizing a complete Biblical Hermeneutic, you will be able to see that and come to the same conclusion (unless you let your bias dictate what you believe, rather than the Word of God).

Fourth...no one is able to "perfectly obey the law," and to say that demonstrates that you don't have enough life experience to be able to distinguish between false teachings and reality. No insult intended.

Fifth, you are calling Paul a liar, or stating that he didn't know what he was talking about. The text says that Christ "abolished the law of commandments expressed in ordinances" and you come right out of the gate saying that "Christ didn't abolish the law." Wow...you have an issue here...

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Third, concerning Luke 16:16, "the law and prophets" were until John means that the giving forth of the law and the declaration of the prophets were UNTIL John, not that the law was abolished, nor what the prophets spoke. The prophets spoke of a new heaven and new earth, that has not yet come to pass, so without a doubt you are misinterpreting that statement to mean that both things are abolished.


Negative, I don't misinterpret it, I interpret it just as He said it, followed with many other passages that make your refutation silent at best. He said clearly, the law and the prophets, as they have to do with Him, were "until John." Look up the Greek word for "until" there...it means pretty much the same as "until" in English...meaning that it marks an end of something, the termination of something. Hence, the end and termination of the law of Moses and the prophets (the prophets as having to do with His first coming, NOT prophecies that have yet to come to pass).

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Fourth, concerning Hebrews 8:13, again, the old covenant is gone, but the law that came through the old covenant has not yet vanished. It will vanish when heaven and earth disappear. Heaven and earth has not yet disappeared, so it is still in full effect.


Again, see my answer above directed at your "heaven and earth" understanding. Jesus used the same phraseology when addressing John the Baptist, telling people that he was "Elijah to come" and then a few passages further, tells them that "Elijah has already come." It is the same phraseology used in the "heaven and earth" passage in Matthew that you continually misinterpret from lack of experience in the Word. He said that it would not pass "until"...yet He has ALREADY fulfilled it before He even spoke those words.

Is He a liar, or a trickster? No, but He hardly ever spoke in plain language...you can look up why in Mat. 13:10-13...

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Fifth, concerning Hebrews 7:12, there was indeed a change in the law. The manner in which the shadows of the law are observed. Such as Passover, such as Pentecost, circumcision etc, they are no longer observed in the literal manner they were commanded to be observed, but by the realities they foreshadowed. This was the change of the law in the new covenant. The change of the law is not abolishing the law.


You have a weird way of defining certain words in order to accommodate your theories. Change of law means just that, just as we changed one president for another...just as one commander of a military unit is changed to another. Change means that one ended and another took over...unless you believe in the "evolution" of law from one into another...and in that case you would be labeled a heretic.

Quote
Sixth, concerning Romans 7:6, being released from the law does not mean that the law is abolished nor that you are released from the law to disobey it. It means that you are released from the slavery of sin that the law reveals, and the condemnation of death that the law demands. Hence the terms, "freed from sin", and "freed from the law of sin and death".


Again, you are interpreting the passage according to your bias, not what the text actually states. I will grant that this passage does not actually state that the law has been abolished, but the others do make that clear statement...this one was just added for fluff, but it means the same thing.

Quote
All of this is pretty easy to understand.


Actually, you show that you have only a carnal understanding of them, which is why you didn't get even one of them correct. The plain truth of the matter is that the Old Covenant and its law were never designed for permanency, they were temporary, just as Paul states in Galatians. The law had its purpose, and when Christ came the purpose of the law was finished as it has to do with the righteous. Now it is through the Faith and the New Covenant and the new Law of Christ of that covenant.

Blessings!


Your answers are too long, so I'm going to keep this short, because it doesn't take much to throw everything you're saying out the door. Let us begin with one simple scripture, Jesus Christ said this,

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (Matthew 5:17 [NIV])

So if Jesus Christ did not come to abolish the law, why do you teach that the law is abolished? You're teaching the opposite of this scripture. A simple answer should suffice, if you are right.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: bel on Fri Apr 21, 2017 - 12:19:42
SwordMaster, From what I understand, Jesus did not fulfill all 600+ laws of the Mosaic Law as interpreted by the leaders of Israel at the time.
1. He broke the Sabbath-Matt. 12:1-14
2. He did not participate in the ceremonial washing before the meal Matt. 15:20
3. He overturned the money tables of those selling pigeons for sacrificial purposes in the temple. Matt.21:12-13

Jesus followed and taught the TRUE Laws of God which were, since the beginning of mankind, are, and always will be. Matt.15:9 says "And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."

This is why Israel fell(70 AD):
Hosea 4:14 "for the men themselves go apart with harlots and offer sacrifices with a ritual harlot. Therefore people who do not understand will be trampled."
Hosea 4:10 "For they shall eat, but not have enough, they shall commit harlotry but not increase because they have ceased obeying the Lord."
Hosea 4:1 "There is no truth or mercy or knowledge of God in the land."
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge, I also will reject you from being priest for Me because you have forgotten the law of God." 
 
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Pkbrother on Fri Apr 21, 2017 - 14:11:11
Back to your first question!!!
Why was the law not abolished    But circumcision,  feativals.  Sbbaths not observed????

Genesis 17:11
Circumcision will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.......
This was the sign of the old covenant God made with Abraham

The Jews tried to bring this over to the new covenant and said
Acts 15:1
Unless you are circumcised acording to the law of Moses you cannot be saved"
Acts 15:5
Sect of Pharisees said "it is necesaary to circumcise them and to command them to keep the law of Moses"
This almost split the church and was a continual contention in the first century and even up to today!!
They all agrreed on the circumcision issue but did not completely define which parts of the Law of Moses should be kept and which ones should not be kept as maybe that apparently was suposed to be worked out in the individual churches

Back to circumcision
Since we are under a new covenant circumcision is not the sign
Galations1:1-2
Paul says ...did you recieve the Spirit by works of the law ar hearing of faith?
The sign of the new covenant is the Holy Sprirt!!,!
Ephesians 1:13-14
Specifically the fruits of the Spirit as Jesus said ....by their fruits......
This sign of salvation is more difiuclt to see than some physisical act......
Further this principle woulld apply to any physical ceremony that is used to show others you have committed to Christ.....ex.  CHurch membership, babtism, certain elementary doctrines
As listed in Hebrews 6:1-4.  Baptisms, eternal security, end times......
Hebrews says these are elementary doctrines and should not be made as salvation issues.....

I have been in churches that insisted these were salvation issues!!!!!

As far as festivals. Sabbaths......they are not salvation issues....but were probably observed more closely in the 1st century as they had Jewish leaders and continued to read the OT

I will say that any issue put forth as a salvation issue...that is not focused on the bearing of fruits...love joy peace.....but on some elementary doctrine is a galtion transgression and therefore a false teaching.

Galations 5:6
For in Christ neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything
But faith working throygh love
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: bel on Fri Apr 21, 2017 - 17:36:23
Pkbrother, the Law of circumcision still applies today. Circumcision of the heart is and always has been a necessary requirement for salvation. Deut. 30:6  "Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of you descendants to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul so that you may live."
Deut. 10:16 "So circumcise your heart and stiffen your neck no longer."
Jer. 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the Lord and remove the foreskins of your heart, men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, or else My fury will go forth like fire and burn with none to quench it, because of your evil deeds."

 However, the leaders of Israel, who had no spiritual understanding of the Law of God mistook this to mean a literal cutting of the male organ. This practice may even have been started for hygienic purposes. From what I understand, it was never a Law according to God.

Jesus brings us back to the original meaning of circumcision(that of the heart) in John 7:22-23 "Moses therefore gave you circumcision(not that it was from Moses, but from the fathers) and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath, so that the law of Moses should not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath."
This is to say that Jesus was following the Law according to God not the law according to man.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Fri Apr 21, 2017 - 18:10:51
CG said...

Quote
Your answers are too long, so I'm going to keep this short, because it doesn't take much to throw everything you're saying out the door.


You demonstrate your ignorance of the Scriptures, my friend. There is nothing that you can say to 'overthrow' what I have given you to consider, except for the fact that you are not even considering what you have been shown. That is bias defending, not truth seeking...

Quote
A simple answer should suffice, if you are right.

Again, you demonstrate ignorance not only of the Scriptures, but how to correctly interpret them. You cannot take one "simple" passage for any stand...for or against the point of the OP, or for or against any subject matter in the Scriptures...and for you to think that you can, demonstrates that ignorance. You do not know very much about Biblical Hermeneutics, do you?

Quote
Let us begin with one simple scripture, Jesus Christ said this,

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (Matthew 5:17 [NIV])

So if Jesus Christ did not come to abolish the law, why do you teach that the law is abolished? You're teaching the opposite of this scripture.


Negative, young padowan. The FACT that I can produce (and have produced) 7 passages that clearly state that the law of Moses has been abrogated, and that you can only come up with one (which you are misinterpreting for your cause) that you *think* states otherwise...is evidence that you are arguing out of your bias rather than out of the Scriptures and their intended meaning.

Use the "long answer" excuse all you want to in effort to short circuit my posts, but you will fail nonetheless because you are in error. Paul theoretically shuts your mouth here...

Galatians 3:10
Because as many as adhere to the works of the law of Moses are under a curse: because it is written, "Cursed are all those who do not persevere in all that is written in the book of the law, to do them.

and

Galatians 5:2-3
2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.

This is what you are telling people...and it is the same thing that others were saying that Paul was trying to save people from...

Acts 15:1
But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

Acts 15:5
But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses."

As I state earlier which you evidently ignored, regarding the verse you consistently keep misinterpreting...

Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

1.  He had already fulfilled all the law, because if He had not, then He would not have been able to begin His Messianic ministry. He fulfilled all the law in His first 30 years of life...and if you disagree with that fact, then you have greater problems in your theology than you first appear to have.

2.  Having already fulfilled all the law, He abrogated it when He inaugurated the New Covenant at His baptism; from that moment forward, all that He did was in teaching about the New Covenant kingdom of God. Again, if you disagree on that point, then you are in really deep water.

3.  Jesus used the exact same teaching style which He utilized in addressing John the Baptist being the fulfillment of the Elijah prophecy...

Matthew 17:10-13
10 And the disciples asked him, "Then why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?"
11 He answered, "Elijah does come, and he will restore all things.
12 But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands."
13 Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist.

The only difference between how Jesus taught here about John, and about how He came to fulfill the law, is that in the passage above He immediately explains, AFTER speaking about Elijah as if his coming was still future tense, He explained to them that "Elijah has already come." Understand?

If you understood covenanting in this manner, then you would understand that with the inauguration of the New Covenant, the Old was automatically disanulled...if it has not been, then the New Covenant can not come into authority, and we are all still in our sins, needing to daily sacrifice animals for our sins.

Again, you are a modern day Pharisee, and you are in great error.


Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Fri Apr 21, 2017 - 18:18:32
bel said...

Quote
SwordMaster, From what I understand, Jesus did not fulfill all 600+ laws of the Mosaic Law as interpreted by the leaders of Israel at the time.


bel, there is a difference between the actual law of Moses, the Torah, and what the Scribes added to the law over the course of hundreds of years called the Mishna and Gemara...which were their interpretations of case law. The Mishna and Gemara are NOT part of the law of Moses, and it is of these writings that you are mostly referring to.

Quote
1. He broke the Sabbath-Matt. 12:1-14

No, He broke what the Pharisees misinterpreted as breaking the law, and He set them straight when He taught on the subject, but they ignored Him. They were bias defenders, not truth seekers.

Quote
2. He did not participate in the ceremonial washing before the meal Matt. 15:20

That's because He had fulfilled the reason for the ceremonial part of hand washing, and His actions on that point was a teaching point on the subject. Again, hand washing was not part of the law, it was an interpretation and "tradition of the elders," and not anything that God ever told them to do.

Quote
3. He overturned the money tables of those selling pigeons for sacrificial purposes in the temple. Matt.21:12-13

You are killing me with this one...they were breaking the law by selling sacrificial animals INSIDE the temple. Go back and look at the directions for the tabernacle in Exodus, and show us where God provided a place for them to do such things. There was nothing that He did by this action that was in violation of any Israelite law.


Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: bel on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 02:55:02
SwordMaster, As I wrote in my post, Jesus did not fulfill the 600+laws of the Mosaic Law as interpreted by the leaders of Israel at the time.

 According to Lev.17:8-9 "Whatever man of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among you, who offers a burnt offering or sacrifice and does not bring it to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, to offer it to the Lord, that man shall be cut off."

 Deut. 12:11 "then there will be the place where the Lord your God chooses to make His name abide. There you shall bring all I command you: your burnt offerings , your sacrifices your tithes the heave offerings of your hand and all your choice offerings which you vow to the Lord." The people were to bring specific sacrifices as outlined in the Old Testament. Animals such as sheep, oxen, doves and pigeons etc. had to be without blemish. This was not very feasible for the poor, many did not have the "proper" sacrifice and it was also a burden to those who traveled from afar. So selling such things at overinflated prices became a lucrative business.

As I mentioned before, the only Laws that Jesus fulfilled(followed) were the TRUE Laws of God that were there since mankind was first created and always will be. Jesus did not sacrifice animals because this was never required by God. 

Jeremiah 7:22 says this: "For in the day I brought them out of  the Land of Egypt, I did not speak to the fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices."

Isaiah 1:12-14 "When you come to appear before Me, who requires of you this trampling of My courts? Bring your worthless offerings no longer. Incense is an abomination to Me. New moon and Sabbath, the calling of assemblies, I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly. I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts. They have become a burden to Me. I am weary of bearing them. "   
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Alan on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 06:06:30


Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (Matthew 5:17 [NIV])

So if Jesus Christ did not come to abolish the law, why do you teach that the law is abolished? You're teaching the opposite of this scripture. A simple answer should suffice, if you are right.


Reading through this thread, it's quite obvious your understanding of Mat 5:17 is off the mark...


..If, however, the law of Moses bears the same relationship to men today, in terms of its binding status, then it was not fulfilled, and Jesus failed at what He came to do. On the other hand, if the Lord did accomplish His goal, then the law was fulfilled, and it is not a binding legal institution today. Further, if the law of Moses was not fulfilled by Christ—and thus remains as a binding legal system for today—then it is not just partially binding. Rather, it is a totally compelling system. Jesus plainly said that not one “jot or tittle (https://www.gotquestions.org/jot-tittle.html)” (representative of the smallest markings of the Hebrew script) would pass away until all was fulfilled. Consequently, nothing of the law was to fail until it had completely accomplished its purpose. Jesus fulfilled the law. Jesus fulfilled all of the law. We cannot say that Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial system, but did not fulfill the other aspects of the law. Jesus either fulfilled all of the law, or none of it. What Jesus' death means for the sacrificial system, it also means for the other aspects of the law.
(sic) GotQuestions
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Jaime on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 08:13:04
Hiw do we define "fulfill"?

I tend to look at it as to fill full that which had been emptied. Jesus did that very thing in Mathew 5 in the Sermon on the Mount. He filled full the law that had been emptied to just the Letter of the Law with the Spirit of the Law as God intended. His fulfilling of the law was filling full the Law to the status God intended and not what the Jews had decimated it to.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Alan on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 08:46:34
Hiw do we define "fulfill"?

I tend to look at it as to fill full that which had been emptied. Jesus did that very thing in Mathew 5 in the Sermon on the Mount. He filled full the law that had been emptied to just the Letter of the Law with the Spirit of the Law as God intended. His fulfilling of the law was filling full the Law to the status God intended and not what the Jews had decimated it to.


Exactly Jaime! The very reason Jesus made amendments to the law was to get the heart involved rather than just the brain. People have such a difficult time understanding and accepting Mat 22:36-40, it's like they're lost without the full set of Ikea instructions, so in turn they cling to the law.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Texas Conservative on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 09:01:42
Hiw do we define "fulfill"?

I tend to look at it as to fill full that which had been emptied. Jesus did that very thing in Mathew 5 in the Sermon on the Mount. He filled full the law that had been emptied to just the Letter of the Law with the Spirit of the Law as God intended. His fulfilling of the law was filling full the Law to the status God intended and not what the Jews had decimated it to.


Exactly Jaime! The very reason Jesus made amendments to the law was to get the heart involved rather than just the brain. People have such a difficult time understanding and accepting Mat 22:36-40, it's like they're lost without the full set of Ikea instructions, so in turn they cling to the law.

Laws don't require thinking.

That's why some are attracted to this "Law of Christ" concept.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: cgaviria on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 09:50:06
CG said...

Quote
Your answers are too long, so I'm going to keep this short, because it doesn't take much to throw everything you're saying out the door.


You demonstrate your ignorance of the Scriptures, my friend. There is nothing that you can say to 'overthrow' what I have given you to consider, except for the fact that you are not even considering what you have been shown. That is bias defending, not truth seeking...

Quote
A simple answer should suffice, if you are right.

Again, you demonstrate ignorance not only of the Scriptures, but how to correctly interpret them. You cannot take one "simple" passage for any stand...for or against the point of the OP, or for or against any subject matter in the Scriptures...and for you to think that you can, demonstrates that ignorance. You do not know very much about Biblical Hermeneutics, do you?

Quote
Let us begin with one simple scripture, Jesus Christ said this,

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (Matthew 5:17 [NIV])

So if Jesus Christ did not come to abolish the law, why do you teach that the law is abolished? You're teaching the opposite of this scripture.


Negative, young padowan. The FACT that I can produce (and have produced) 7 passages that clearly state that the law of Moses has been abrogated, and that you can only come up with one (which you are misinterpreting for your cause) that you *think* states otherwise...is evidence that you are arguing out of your bias rather than out of the Scriptures and their intended meaning.

Use the "long answer" excuse all you want to in effort to short circuit my posts, but you will fail nonetheless because you are in error. Paul theoretically shuts your mouth here...

Galatians 3:10
Because as many as adhere to the works of the law of Moses are under a curse: because it is written, "Cursed are all those who do not persevere in all that is written in the book of the law, to do them.

and

Galatians 5:2-3
2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.

This is what you are telling people...and it is the same thing that others were saying that Paul was trying to save people from...

Acts 15:1
But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

Acts 15:5
But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses."

As I state earlier which you evidently ignored, regarding the verse you consistently keep misinterpreting...

Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

1.  He had already fulfilled all the law, because if He had not, then He would not have been able to begin His Messianic ministry. He fulfilled all the law in His first 30 years of life...and if you disagree with that fact, then you have greater problems in your theology than you first appear to have.

2.  Having already fulfilled all the law, He abrogated it when He inaugurated the New Covenant at His baptism; from that moment forward, all that He did was in teaching about the New Covenant kingdom of God. Again, if you disagree on that point, then you are in really deep water.

3.  Jesus used the exact same teaching style which He utilized in addressing John the Baptist being the fulfillment of the Elijah prophecy...

Matthew 17:10-13
10 And the disciples asked him, "Then why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?"
11 He answered, "Elijah does come, and he will restore all things.
12 But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands."
13 Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist.

The only difference between how Jesus taught here about John, and about how He came to fulfill the law, is that in the passage above He immediately explains, AFTER speaking about Elijah as if his coming was still future tense, He explained to them that "Elijah has already come." Understand?

If you understood covenanting in this manner, then you would understand that with the inauguration of the New Covenant, the Old was automatically disanulled...if it has not been, then the New Covenant can not come into authority, and we are all still in our sins, needing to daily sacrifice animals for our sins.

Again, you are a modern day Pharisee, and you are in great error.

So is the law abolished, yes or no? Pick one.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Alan on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 10:05:34
Not abolished but fulfilled, as Jesus said.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: bel on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 11:44:32
Alan, the Law of God is still in effect today. Jesus did not amend or change any of the Law. He fulfilled it, meaning He measured up to the requirements of the Law.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Jaime on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 13:03:07
Or fulfill meaning filled it up to its intended meaning including Spirit, not just letter of the Law. The Jews had emptied the Law. Jesus said he didn't come to do that but to fill it up (to the extent the Father intended). Then proceeded to describe how in the entirety of the Sermon on the Mount.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: cgaviria on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 13:22:10
Not abolished but fulfilled, as Jesus said.

Is it though? The spring festivals in the Law are fulfilled, the Passover, Pentecost, First Fruits, Feat of Unleavened bread.... all beginning at the time of the first coming of Jesus Christ, but what about the autumn feasts in the law? Feat of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, Feast of Booths. Have these been fulfilled? As you say, "the law has been fulfilled". You obviously don't even understand what it means.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Jaime on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 13:33:59
Fulfilled = filled up that which was emptied. Exactly what Jesus did in Mathew 5. We have erroneously associated fulfill with do away with. That which Jesus said he DID NOT come to do. And no the Fall feasts nhave NOT been "fulfilled" as the Spring feasts have.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: cgaviria on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 13:40:12
Fulfilled = filled up that which was emptied. Exactly what Jesus did in Mathew 5. We have erroneously associated fulfill with do away with. That which Jesus said he DID NOT come to do. And no the Fall feasts nhave NOT been "fulfilled" as the Spring feasts have.

Precisely my point. The Law has not been fulfilled yet, but it has begun to be fulfilled since the time of Jesus Christ. The Law will entirely be fulfilled at the last thousands years of this heaven and earth. Which is why it is said, "until heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle will pass from the law..." It's not so difficult to understand. But because these people love their wicked ways they want to distort scripture to try to get it to mean that the Law is fulfilled and abolished. How foolish, and my oh my, what words they will be met with on the day of judgment, "depart from me you worker of LAW-LESSness."
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Amo on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 13:43:03
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Regardless of what fulfilled meant, the underlined above is quite clear. Forming a theology that does away with the observance of the details of one of God's commandments, would certainly fall under the designation of breaking the commandment and teaching others to do so as well.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Jaime on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 13:48:10
Question:
What does obeying rhe Spirit of the law as Jesus preached in Mathew 5, as opposed to the Letter of the Law that the Jews had boiled it down to?

Did Jesus raise or lower the bar with his re-interpretation of the Law, or did he throw the bar away?
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Alan on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 13:54:01
Or fulfill meaning filled it up to its intended meaning including Spirit, not just letter of the Law. The Jews had emptied the Law. Jesus said he didn't come to do that but to fill it up (to the extent the Father intended). Then proceeded to describe how in the entirety of the Sermon on the Mount.


Exactly!!!! People are so lost in the fulfillment of the law. 
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Alan on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 13:55:18
Not abolished but fulfilled, as Jesus said.

Is it though? The spring festivals in the Law are fulfilled, the Passover, Pentecost, First Fruits, Feat of Unleavened bread.... all beginning at the time of the first coming of Jesus Christ, but what about the autumn feasts in the law? Feat of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, Feast of Booths. Have these been fulfilled? As you say, "the law has been fulfilled". You obviously don't even understand what it means.


See post #38, that is everything you need to know regarding fulfillment of the law.  ::tippinghat::
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: bel on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 14:18:46
 From what I understand, the Jewish people were not following the divine Law of God. They had gone astray and established their own law. Jesus explained the whole Law of God in it's entirety and followed it. As Amo has mentioned, we should also be following it and  teaching this to our children as well.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Jaime on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 14:31:48
They had emptied or abolished Torah (the Law) by only focusing on the Letter of the Law and ignoring the Spirit of the Law. Jesus corrected them in Mathew 5.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Pkbrother on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 15:53:19
The law of Moses is difficult to understand without being raised up under it.......
JEwish believers in the past and today seem to have a better understanding.......although still struggle...
The covenant of Abraham was greater than the covenant of Moses....
This was the promise of the seed from Judh to messiah...
Glations 3:15-18
The law cannot annul the covenant that it should make the promise of no effect.....
Hebrews sepnds the entire book showing that Jesus did not come through the law as through Aaron but came through Judah....
Hebrews 7:11-14
Our Lord rose from Judah.....v.14
Jews had a tendency to exalt the law of Moses greater than the promise of Abraham???
Hebrews 3:3.     ONe who is counted worthy of more glory than Moses......

Remeber the law of Moses was enacted because of the trangression of Israel 400 years in Egypt...
Galations 3:19.   It was added because of trangressions till the seed should come....
The law of Moses is not done away with it just has a different function......
Like each meber of a family has a different function......not good or bad just diffrent.....

The law is there to show us our sins
Romans. 7:7.  I would not have known sin if it were not for the law.....

The law does not justify us just simply shows us our sins....
Much like a police officer does not justify us ....that is up to a judge...he just writes tickets.....
But if you remove police from most cities you will have caos....
Some cities fall into caos if the lights go off for a few hours
It is the same with some Christians and some churches......

Romans 7:12
So the law is holy, and just and good.

In Psalms 19:7-9.   The law is divided into 6 categories
Commandments.   Fear of the Lord.    Judgements of the Lord
Law.   Testimonies.    Statutes(precepts, principles>......
These statutes defined as principles are what is carried over from the law of Moses
These were brought out by Jesus and the disciples....
Hebrews 10:1
The law was a shadow.....

Since we as Gentiles have been 1900 years from our Jewish roots and therfore the OT and the law it is difficult to understand.......
Remeber all 13 apostles and all writers of the entire Bible were Hebrew accept Luke.....

Jews lean toward justification by works...while gentiles lean toward reasoning.....
1 corinthians 1:22.   Jews seek a sign.  ...gentiles seek after wisdom.......

As gentiles we must be careful not. to cast off the law as worhtless or the OT as not inspired while the NT is inspired.........

Over the past 60 years in America church has lost its grip on law and order of the OT and NT and substituted....what every man thinks is right in his own eyes...
Judges 18:1.  There was no king(authority) and every man did what was right in his own eyes.....

I believe if we look back at the 1 st century apostles and church we will see that the church had a much stricter code of conduct and order than what we have today ....especially in the area of holiness....

If apostle Paul came came into our churches today and enacted the same judgemsents and rules he enacted at corinth...i believe half of our congregations would label hima hereitc and false teacher.
Which is exactly what they did at corinth where he never returned......
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: bel on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 15:56:46
Jaime, How does one go about following Torah in the Spirit?
For example, Lev. 12:2:7 outlines the ritual law of purification after childbirth. Verse 6 states, "When the days of her purification are fulfilled, whether for a son or daughter, she shall bring to the priest a lamb of the first year as a burnt offering, and a young pigeon or a turtle dove as a sin offering, to the door of the tabernacle meeting."

 I can guarantee you that Jesus did not follow this law. Having a baby is not a sin. In fact, children are a blessing from God. The reason this was abolished was because it is not a Law of God. 
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Jaime on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 16:28:41
Jesus said several times, you have heard that the Law says such and such, but I say to you thus.......

It's not good enough just to not murder. We are to not have anger in our hearts. It's not enough to just not commit the act of adultery, we are not to lust after someone in our heart. Jesus RAISED the bar. That is living the Spirit of the Law. The Spirit or essence encompassed in the phrase "love God and love your neighbor as yourself."
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Amo on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 16:51:27
Jesus did not fail in His mission. He fulfilled the law. If we want to pick up our crosses and follow Him, we have His perfect example before us.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Jaime on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 17:45:04
No one said he failed. He filled up what had been emptied out of the Law.......the inclusion of the Spirit of the Law where it had been emptied as the entire context of Mathew 5 clearly proclaims.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: bel on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 18:31:59
Jaime, I think the question for cgaviria is: Why are we not following all 613 commandments in the Torah? If Jesus filled up the Law  with the Spirit, then we should still be following the Torah "in the Spirit", if the Torah is the Law. On the contrary, Jesus was basically challenging what the Jewish people considered to be the Law of God. If we believe what Jesus proclaimed to be the truth,  that these are the Laws and the ways of the one true God, then we should do away with all other beliefs and follow Him.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Jaime on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 18:39:24
I think we definitely should follow the spirit of the Law, which is summed in the statement, love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Are you saying we shouldn't obey the apirit of the law in this way or was Jesus just flapping his gums?
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Pkbrother on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 19:23:33
Every word of God is forever fixed in the heavens.....psalm 119:89
Hebrews 13:8.   God is thee same yesterday today and forever.......

All of the law is important but the fruits of the Spirit are most important

For example these are lesser issues of the law as stated by Jesus and apostles in NT
1. Eatting of certain foods......
            Keeps us healthy and fasting can help keep us from glutony
   Remeber the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit
2.  Tithing.....
      can keep us out of financial problems, put God first in financies and keep us from coveting
3.  keepeing sabbaths and holy days
      Helps keep us from being a workaholic...also gives us specific times to worship and fellowship

However if you do not keep these you are going to be extremely unhealthy have financial problems and stressed out at your job.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: bel on Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 00:53:03
Jaime, maybe I should have worded my post better. What I was trying to say is that Jesus taught us the entire Law of God, which are the true eternal divine Laws of God and His ways. Yes, I definitely believe that we should all be following Him in the Spirit. I have no problem in believing that some of the 613 commandments in the Torah are man-made laws, and that they were abolished because they were not Laws of God. Take Lev. 19:27 for example. 'You shall not shave around the sides of your head, nor shall you disfigure the edges of your beard." This is obviously a law created by man. If it was a Law of God, it would still be in effect today because as Pkbrother has mentioned "every word of God is forever fixed in the heavens", and "God is the same yesterday, today and forever."
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Alan on Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 07:35:58
Jaime, maybe I should have worded my post better. What I was trying to say is that Jesus taught us the entire Law of God, which are the true eternal divine Laws of God and His ways. Yes, I definitely believe that we should all be following Him in the Spirit. I have no problem in believing that some of the 613 commandments in the Torah are man-made laws, and that they were abolished because they were not Laws of God. Take Lev. 19:27 for example. 'You shall not shave around the sides of your head, nor shall you disfigure the edges of your beard." This is obviously a law created by man. If it was a Law of God, it would still be in effect today because as Pkbrother has mentioned "every word of God is forever fixed in the heavens", and "God is the same yesterday, today and forever."


No, this is just not true. Every Levitical law was given by God to the Israelites. The hard part for Christian law keepers to accept is that the law in it's nature was a curse, as no man could EVER keep every law, hence why Jesus fulfilled the law, with His sacrifice on the cross for our sins and in the power of His resurrection it was accomplished.

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Jaime on Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 07:49:42
God had to deal with the Israelites in a specific way. They had been in Egypt for 400 years, and his reason for all the laws was to get Egypt out of THEM. The Law was their tutor. As time went on, the Jews were good at building fences within the Law. In other words they devised safeguards so that one would not break the Sabbath. Jesus came to reinterpret Torah and fill up the Spirit of the Law where it had been removed or in some cases never existed. Example, Jesus told them of course it is right to "do good" on the Sabbath, which goes against the typical letter of the Law interpretation. Instead of 10 major commandments and 613 smaller ones, Jesus said all of that is encompassed in and summed up in: "Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself." In that statement, he filled full the law. Now we are not JUST held to the standard of not murdering or committing adultery, we are held to the standard of not harboring anger or lust in our heart. A higher bar, if you will.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: RB on Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 08:38:33
So is the law abolished, yes or no? Pick one.
The correct answer would be YES and NO!
Quote
1st Timothy 1:7,8~"Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.  But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;"
Coming back and present how both sides are correct, both sides are in error.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Amo on Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 09:03:49
The problem has never been with the law or ten commandments, they are spiritual as Paul himself testifies.

Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The ten commandments are spiritual, holy, just, and good. They could be nothing else for they proceeded forth out of the mouth of God. It is and has been our narrow view and application of the law that is seriously lacking. None of the commandments need to change, we need to change. They do not need to change in relation to us or our salvation, we need to change in relation to them for our salvation. We must accept the death of ourselves that they demand in Christ Jesus our perfect Lord and example, and change our attitude as willful lawbreakers, to repentant law keepers.

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Anyone who wants to know what walking in the spirit looks like, can and should carefully study the life and teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. This is not rocket science, it only becomes complicated because of sin and our unending desire to commit it. Therefore do we cloud the issue and murk the waters of simplistic truth. We have the exact same problem as Israel, at times they abandoned God's commandments, at other times they wrongfully applied and forced them upon all they could. Both problems exist today, though the former is I believe more prevalent. The command to love God with all our heart, and our neighbor as ourselves is not a new command, Jesus was simply addressing fallen humanities main problem once again.
 

Ex 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Le 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD……………………………………………………………………………34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

De 5:10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

De 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

De 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

De 10:12 ¶ And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, 13 To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?

De 10:19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

De 11:1 ¶ Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway……………………………………………………….13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day,to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,……………………………..22 For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him;

De 19:9 If thou shalt keep all these commandments to do them, which I command thee this day,to love the LORD thy God, and to walk ever in his ways; then shalt thou add three cities more for thee, beside these three:

De 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it………………………………………….20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Jos 22:5 But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Ne 5:5 ¶ And said, I beseech thee, O LORD God of heaven, the great and terrible God, that keepeth covenant and mercy for them that love him and observe his commandments:

Isa 56:2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 ¶ Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Da 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

Love has always been pointed out as the prerequisite to proper observance or obedience to the commandments of God. In stating this truth once again, our Lord and Savior did not infer any change in the ten commandments of God at all, but rather once again a change in our perception and attitude in relation to the law. All suggestions to the contrary are just more clouds and murky waters of our own creation.


Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: bel on Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 13:22:14
Alan, if every Levitical law was given by God to the Israelites, then we have a problem with these verses:
Jeremiah 7:21-23 "Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; 'Add your burnt offerings to your sarifices and eat meat' For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offering and sacrifices. But this is what I commanded them, saying 'Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the ways that I commanded you, that it may be well with you."

The Law of God, His commandments and His ways, are not a curse. In fact, when we follow Him they bring righteousness and life.
Psalm 111:7-8 "The works of His hands are verity and justice; All His precepts are sure. They stand forever and ever, and are done in truth and righteousness."
Psalm 112:1-2 "Blessed is the man who fears the Lord, who delights greatly in His commandments. His descendants will be mighty on earth; the generation of the upright will be blessed."

As I mentioned in another thread, the Laws of God was there in the beginning of mankind. Just as we cannot change scientific or mathematical laws, neither can we change the Laws of operation for man. We either follow them or things fall apart, and there will be destruction and chaos.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Pkbrother on Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 14:00:08
To answer the question was the law abolished.......no
JEsus restored the correct meaning of the Law.......

Matthew 5
HE corrected mans wrong interpretation of the law.....
You have heard it said...but I say........
He also expanded the deaper  meaning of the law of Moses

In other words He restored the original meaninig of hat God wanted all along

Matthew 19:8
Moses permitted yout to divorce,
But from the beginning it was not so.

He reatored things back to the beginning

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Truthcomber on Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 14:13:56
Howdy All,


Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments (Matt 5:1-16) , and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Comment: What have both the commandments of God (1 Cor 9:21) and the testimony of Jesus Christ?  I Believe that it is Matt 5:1-16.

 

Law #1 The Royal Law of Liberty

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well... …13…and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

2 Cor 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: 3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:...12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Comment: What commandments were written in stone for the house of Israel?  Why it was the Ten Commandments.  The old commandments in the new will vanish when all fulfill the new (Matt 5:1-16). When we love God with our whole hearts and love our neighbor as our selves, we do what is contained in the moral law. 

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

John 15:13  Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only (one of kind) Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be (G4982 or will be)

http://biblehub.com/lexicon/john/3-17.htm (http://biblehub.com/lexicon/john/3-17.htm)

Comment: Christ fulfilled all of the law when he died for us.   
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Truthcomber on Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 14:28:21
Howdy All,

Law #2 The Moral Law


Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law (OT law), do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all…12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy…

Comment: The gentiles did not have the Ten Commandments.  But they do have the moral law contained in the Ten Commandments. 

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Romans 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Comment: When we love God above all things and our neighbor as ourselves we will be fulfilling the moral law requirements (New Testament law) as Christ did.  When all of mankind has done so, there will be no law (Matt 5:17-18).

Comment: Christ fulfilled all the requirements of the moral law when he died for us.  When all of mankind has done so, there will be no law. 

Romans 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Comment: We sin when we follow the flesh (old man) that was crucified.  The devil in is the lord of the flesh. Life represents God, sin represents the devil.

Gal 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Comment: If you walk according to the old man, you are under the moral law. 
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: bel on Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 15:24:30
RB, I agree with your yes and no stance on this subject of the law. Deuteronomy 5:1-22 reviews the Law of God. Verse 22 says this: "These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and HE ADDED NO MORE." Man has been given the power to judge according to the Law of God. We can create laws, however, they must be in accordance with or built on the foundation of God's Law. The law becomes a curse because those who seek  power and control will use it for their own purposes. However, God's Law is a blessing in that any who do this will fall to destruction.

As Pkbrother has mentioned, Jesus purified the Law from foreign things and brought it back to the original, everlasting, true Word of God.

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Truthcomber on Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 15:48:28
Howdy All,



I had written at the beginning of two posts ago:

Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments (Matt 5:1-16) , and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Comment: What are both the commandments of God (1 Cor 9:21) and the testimony of Jesus Christ?  I Believe that it is Matt 5:1-16.


 
It should have been:

Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments (Matt 5:20-48, 6,7) , and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Comment: What are both the commandments of God (1 Cor 9:21) and the testimony of Jesus Christ?  I Believe that it is (Matt 5:20-48, 6,7). Christ did not destroy the law or the prophets.  He instead expounded on them and showed what is now relevant and not relevant in (Matt 5:20-48, 6,7).



Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Truthcomber on Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 16:35:48
Bel had written:

RB, I agree with your yes and no stance on this subject of the law. Deuteronomy 5:1-22 reviews the Law of God. Verse 22 says this: "These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and HE ADDED NO MORE." Man has been given the power to judge according to the Law of God. We can create laws, however, they must be in accordance with or built on the foundation of God's Law. The law becomes a curse because those who seek  power and control will use it for their own purposes. However, God's Law is a blessing in that any who do this will fall to destruction.

As Pkbrother has mentioned, Jesus purified the Law from foreign things and brought it back to the original, everlasting, true Word of God.






My Response:

He added no more for that precise time in Duet 5:1-22.   Ceremonial ordinances were added later to the “Law”.  From what I understand, the law encompasses the whole thing. But notice in Matt 5:21-22,27-28, 31-32, 33-34,38-39,43-44


“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time”…” But I say unto you”  These are all deletions and additions to what is relevant in the OT now relevant in the NT.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Mon Apr 24, 2017 - 00:28:12
SwordMaster, As I wrote in my post, Jesus did not fulfill the 600+laws of the Mosaic Law as interpreted by the leaders of Israel at the time.

 According to Lev.17:8-9 "Whatever man of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among you, who offers a burnt offering or sacrifice and does not bring it to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, to offer it to the Lord, that man shall be cut off."

 Deut. 12:11 "then there will be the place where the Lord your God chooses to make His name abide. There you shall bring all I command you: your burnt offerings , your sacrifices your tithes the heave offerings of your hand and all your choice offerings which you vow to the Lord." The people were to bring specific sacrifices as outlined in the Old Testament. Animals such as sheep, oxen, doves and pigeons etc. had to be without blemish. This was not very feasible for the poor, many did not have the "proper" sacrifice and it was also a burden to those who traveled from afar. So selling such things at overinflated prices became a lucrative business.

As I mentioned before, the only Laws that Jesus fulfilled(followed) were the TRUE Laws of God that were there since mankind was first created and always will be. Jesus did not sacrifice animals because this was never required by God. 

Jeremiah 7:22 says this: "For in the day I brought them out of  the Land of Egypt, I did not speak to the fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices."

Isaiah 1:12-14 "When you come to appear before Me, who requires of you this trampling of My courts? Bring your worthless offerings no longer. Incense is an abomination to Me. New moon and Sabbath, the calling of assemblies, I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly. I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts. They have become a burden to Me. I am weary of bearing them. "

bel...any law that God made is a "true law," you are sliding off base with the above.

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Mon Apr 24, 2017 - 00:31:30
Hiw do we define "fulfill"?

I tend to look at it as to fill full that which had been emptied. Jesus did that very thing in Mathew 5 in the Sermon on the Mount. He filled full the law that had been emptied to just the Letter of the Law with the Spirit of the Law as God intended. His fulfilling of the law was filling full the Law to the status God intended and not what the Jews had decimated it to.

The Greek word there is pleroo, meaning to fully perform to completeness.

In other words, Jesus fully performed and completed the law without ever breaking it, not even once.

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Mon Apr 24, 2017 - 00:33:42
CG said...

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Your answers are too long, so I'm going to keep this short, because it doesn't take much to throw everything you're saying out the door.


You demonstrate your ignorance of the Scriptures, my friend. There is nothing that you can say to 'overthrow' what I have given you to consider, except for the fact that you are not even considering what you have been shown. That is bias defending, not truth seeking...

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A simple answer should suffice, if you are right.

Again, you demonstrate ignorance not only of the Scriptures, but how to correctly interpret them. You cannot take one "simple" passage for any stand...for or against the point of the OP, or for or against any subject matter in the Scriptures...and for you to think that you can, demonstrates that ignorance. You do not know very much about Biblical Hermeneutics, do you?

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Let us begin with one simple scripture, Jesus Christ said this,

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (Matthew 5:17 [NIV])

So if Jesus Christ did not come to abolish the law, why do you teach that the law is abolished? You're teaching the opposite of this scripture.


Negative, young padowan. The FACT that I can produce (and have produced) 7 passages that clearly state that the law of Moses has been abrogated, and that you can only come up with one (which you are misinterpreting for your cause) that you *think* states otherwise...is evidence that you are arguing out of your bias rather than out of the Scriptures and their intended meaning.

Use the "long answer" excuse all you want to in effort to short circuit my posts, but you will fail nonetheless because you are in error. Paul theoretically shuts your mouth here...

Galatians 3:10
Because as many as adhere to the works of the law of Moses are under a curse: because it is written, "Cursed are all those who do not persevere in all that is written in the book of the law, to do them.

and

Galatians 5:2-3
2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.

This is what you are telling people...and it is the same thing that others were saying that Paul was trying to save people from...

Acts 15:1
But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

Acts 15:5
But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses."

As I state earlier which you evidently ignored, regarding the verse you consistently keep misinterpreting...

Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

1.  He had already fulfilled all the law, because if He had not, then He would not have been able to begin His Messianic ministry. He fulfilled all the law in His first 30 years of life...and if you disagree with that fact, then you have greater problems in your theology than you first appear to have.

2.  Having already fulfilled all the law, He abrogated it when He inaugurated the New Covenant at His baptism; from that moment forward, all that He did was in teaching about the New Covenant kingdom of God. Again, if you disagree on that point, then you are in really deep water.

3.  Jesus used the exact same teaching style which He utilized in addressing John the Baptist being the fulfillment of the Elijah prophecy...

Matthew 17:10-13
10 And the disciples asked him, "Then why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?"
11 He answered, "Elijah does come, and he will restore all things.
12 But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands."
13 Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist.

The only difference between how Jesus taught here about John, and about how He came to fulfill the law, is that in the passage above He immediately explains, AFTER speaking about Elijah as if his coming was still future tense, He explained to them that "Elijah has already come." Understand?

If you understood covenanting in this manner, then you would understand that with the inauguration of the New Covenant, the Old was automatically disanulled...if it has not been, then the New Covenant can not come into authority, and we are all still in our sins, needing to daily sacrifice animals for our sins.

Again, you are a modern day Pharisee, and you are in great error.

So is the law abolished, yes or no? Pick one.

This is part and parcel of your problem, CG. You lump all law together as if it is one, and it is not.
The law of Moses is gone as far as the Christian is concerned.
The Law of Christ is the law of the New Covenant which era we are under today.

If you can't get that simple fact, then your theology will be forever slanted.






Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Mon Apr 24, 2017 - 00:34:29
Not abolished but fulfilled, as Jesus said.

Actually, fulfilled first, and the abolished because it served its purpose...just as the Scriptures say.

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Mon Apr 24, 2017 - 00:36:47
Alan, the Law of God is still in effect today. Jesus did not amend or change any of the Law. He fulfilled it, meaning He measured up to the requirements of the Law.

bel, do you not know the Scriptures? Or are you calling the Spirit a liar...

Hebrews 7:12
For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

When Christ became the Great High Priest of the New Covenant, He changed the law...just as the passage clearly states.

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Mon Apr 24, 2017 - 00:38:50
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Regardless of what fulfilled meant, the underlined above is quite clear. Forming a theology that does away with the observance of the details of one of God's commandments, would certainly fall under the designation of breaking the commandment and teaching others to do so as well.

Negative, amo, which you have been shown before and rejected.

Teaching men to love one another fulfills all the law, it does not break any of the 10 commandments, but rather fulfills them all, just as the Scriptures teach over and over again.

You cling to the law because you are a modern day Pharisee, and no reason other than that.

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: bel on Mon Apr 24, 2017 - 04:15:28
SwordMaster, From what I understand, God's Laws do not change. Psalms 119:89 says this: "Forever, O Lord, your word is firmly fixed in the heavens." The divine Laws apply to ALL mankind no matter the place or time period. If they change, as you suggest, then I suppose they would not be very true- faithful, constant, reliable, unfailing, without variation. Psalm 19:7 says this: "The  law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul, The testimony of the Lord is sure..." I would say that since God's Law is perfect there would be no need to change it.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Truthcomber on Mon Apr 24, 2017 - 07:47:58
Howdy All,


Bel wrote:


SwordMaster, From what I understand, God's Laws do not change. Psalms 119:89 says this: "Forever, O Lord, your word is firmly fixed in the heavens." The divine Laws apply to ALL mankind no matter the place or time period. If they change, as you suggest, then I suppose they would not be very true- faithful, constant, reliable, unfailing, without variation. Psalm 19:7 says this: "The  law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul, The testimony of the Lord is sure..." I would say that since God's Law is perfect there would be no need to change it.


My Response:


Bel, are you sure that David was talking about the old covenant law? 

Psalm 119: 97 MEM. O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day…113 SAMECH. I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love….127 Therefore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold…144 The righteousness of thy testimonies is everlasting: give me understanding, and I shall live…

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Comment: Do you think that King David, who will be great in the kingdom of God, and who had the holy spirit in him, and who mediated on God’s commandments all day long was doing so with the old testament commandments?  No!!! Psalms 119 parallels Rom 7:12.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant  the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
 
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Comment: Why are Christians dead to the OT law? Because it doesn’t have the spirit in it—it is of the letter only.

Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
 
Comment: You cannot fulfill the old covenant law in the letter.

Matt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments…

Comment:  Notice “these” In Matt 5:19.  It is referring to all of the precepts in Matt 5,6 and 7.  This is the spirit of the New covenant. 

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour:  10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Comment: The Lord fulfilled the law when he gave his live for us. This was the greatest love of all.  This established the new covenant. We fulfill the law when we love our neighbor as ourselves and love God above all things.  Until all have done this, the new covenant law is not fulfilled.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: RB on Mon Apr 24, 2017 - 08:03:21
Law #1 The Royal Law of Liberty
Quote from: Truthcomber
Law #2 The Moral Law
They are ONE and the SAME. Yes, you are correct~
Quote from: Truthcomber
Christ fulfilled all of the law when he died for us.
So every saint of God are dead to the law, as far as the law having power to bring us under its condemantion through the body of Jesus Christ, he being the head and his chosen seed the members of his body.
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Romans 7:1-4~"Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God."
Just as a woman is free from the law of marriage at the death of her husband and is free to marry again, so every child of God is free from the curse of the law of God by the death of Jesus Christ, PROVEN by his resurrection from the dead for our legal justification before God so that we can inherit eternal life, and not face the second death, which is the lake of fire where one shall perish under the curse of God's law.
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Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
This is indeed a good question. If Christ said He came not to destroy the law, why don't we still observe the Old Testament laws? The answer is, we do! We continue to observe those laws in Christ who fulfilled (completed) them. When we consider all of the scripture, in context, it is clear in what sense we delight in the law of God, and in what sense we reject the works of the law for the gospel of Jesus Christ. First~
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Matthew 5:17~"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
By fulfilling the law Christ satisfied all its requirements in our stead. In other words, the 'required' obedience to such laws are fulfilled in Him. Therefore, "in Christ" DID we keep all the law faithfully, and cannot be accused. In this way, we can no longer be judged by any of the everlasting laws, because those laws having been satisfied, we are now under the Grace of God~AS FAR as inheriting eternal life. There is not one thing we are commanded to DO so as to secure our hope of eternal life, or else Christ is of NO use to us, by thinking we must do this or that.
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1st Corinthians 15:56~"The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law."
How did Christ fulfill the law? Except Christ had atoned for our sins, satisfying the law, we would stand guilty before God of the whole. But because He has in our stead satisfied all the law, there is now no condemnation.
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Romans 8:1-2~"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
The law stands, but it cannot condemn the saints because we are made free from the law in Christ Jesus, in whose righteousness we now stand. We are dead to the law only in the sense that Christ died redeeming us from the consequences of it, not Because there is no law left for the unsaved. For that would mean no one was guilty by law of anything before God. And so clearly New Testament Christianity doesn't do away with the Old Testament laws, they stand in the revelation that the Messiah came to fulfill or satisfy what was required, that those laws will not now condemn us. He brought the law to completion, having stood as a substitute for us, that the strength of sin (the law) would not condemn us.  An example would be the Old Testament seventh day Sabbath, which was a type or shadow that looked forward to our true "Rest" in the Messiah, wherein we cease from our own works. That everlasting law to keep that Sabbath of Rest is fulfilled or satisfied in Christ. It is through His works that we have and will enter into rest, and cease from the requirement of our works. Without the perfect works, we would have been condemned by the law, but because of Christ Jesus and His perfect obedience , we rest from the requirement of works in Him. The Old Testament rest of the Sabbath looked forward to this saving Grace, wherein we cease from works. Therefore, it being fulfilled or completed, we would no more rest on the seventh day Sabbath as we would sacrifice a Lamb on an altar, or put blood on our door posts. And for the exact same reasons. Namely, those everlasting laws have not be abrogated, they are fulfilled in the sacrifice of Christ and His shed blood. Those ceremonial laws were shadows of Christ, who has now come fulfilling them. We can't arbitrarily take one law of sacrificing a Lamb and say we must keep this one, while discarding all the other Old Testament laws which God clearly said were also everlasting laws. We have to keep the whole law, or else keep none. With men this is impossible, but with God it is.
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James 2:10~"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
In other words, if we're going to keep old testament laws, then we better make sure we keep all of them, including all implied laws of adultery by thought and murder by hate. Which of course is impossible, except in Christ. What Christian do you know today who claims to follow the Old Testament law is going to Jerusalem three times a year? Because that is the law of God. What Christian follows the law of splashing blood on the door posts? That also is the law of God. But you see, there are some groups who want to pick and choose (depending upon their traditions) what Old Testament laws they want to keep, and which ones they exclude themselves from. But the law isn't a salad bar where we take what we want, and leave the rest. If we are indebted to one law, we're indebted to all the laws. Thank God Christ fulfilled "all" the law, and that includes the law of God's Sabbath rest. This is illustrated for us in passages like Hebrews 4:1-11. That true rest is of the Kingdom of God. We keep the everlasting Sabbath by being in Christ, our true Sabbath of Rest. Our completion (7) of the sojourn, is in Him. The seventh day Sabbath was a shadow looking forward to Him. And with the coming of Christ (the True), the shadow preceding this Real is passed away. The requirement of the Old Testament law is then satisfied. ie., Christ came not to do away with the law, but to satisfy it. He came to bring the conditions of the law into completion. ..to fulfill it!

Likewise, the laws concerning unclean meats which were an illustration that nothing unclean was to come unto the children of Israel, was completed in Christ. With the New Testament, that veil of mystery concerning it has been lifted for us. "The Old Testament concealed is the New Testament revealed!" If one does not accept the authority of the New Testament, then the Old Testament is still concealed to them. The fact is, the Gentiles "were" seen as heathen Dogs and Swine, the animals deemed unclean. Those Old Testament laws illustrated that the Children of God were not to mingle themselves with them. Jesus himself used that very same idioms for Gentiles in the book of Mark:
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Mark 7:27~"But Jesus said unto her, Let the Children first be filled, for it is not meet to take the Children's bread, and cast it unto dogs."
God told the Children of Israel that the Heathen nations that they possessed were "unclean" and they were not to mingle with them. The Gentiles were generally unsaved, and God was using the unclean animals as a "type" whereof the Children of Israel were not to partake of their doctrines and traditions, but separate themselves from them. They were not to partake of these people's meats. This is why the unclean meats were let down unto Peter three times to signify that the Gentiles were now cleaned to be included as Children of God. It is explained in Acts 10:28.
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"And He said unto them, ye know that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation, But God Hath Showed Me that I should not call any man common or Unclean!"
   
Of course, if one is not born of God from above and doesn't accept the revelation of the Old Testament in light of the New Testament, then these words of God ring hollow. But the Truth is, the Gentiles were "generally" the unsaved, and as such were pictured by God as the unclean Dogs and Swine. But God hath cleansed them also, and they were no longer to be considered unclean. Again, this is seen when Jesus talks about the unsaved and unrepentant in passages such as Matthew chapter seven:
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"Give not that which is Holy unto the Dogs. Neither cast ye your pearls before Swine, lest they trample them under foot, and turn again and rend you."
   
These are types of unsaved people, and they are spoken of as these unclean animals. God knows what he is doing and saying, even when we do not. This isn't incidental or coincidental language. It's God breathed and divinely significant. The law of unclean animals is not done away with, it is "still" kept in Christ, because it pertained to the separation of God's people from the heathen. The difference now is that Christ has made the unclean gentiles, Clean. And those cleansed by Christ cannot be called common, as they now come into the Covenant Olive Tree as branches of the Israel of God. We see this again in verses such as Acts 11:6-9 where Peter sees a basket of unclean meats, and will not eat, but God corrects him saying, what He has Cleansed, don't call it common or unclean. Then it is explained that this illustrated that salvation was not only to the physical nation of Israel, but was to go to the Gentile people as well. This is not speculative teachings about unclean meats, it is what God has written there. It's not what goes into the mouth that makes one unclean, it's what comes out of it. Out of the Gentiles came the unclean meats or doctrines. But now they are as the unclean meats, made clean by God. The Gentiles would now also come with the word of God. And what God has now cleansed, call that not unclean.

How did Christ fulfill the law? He has satisfied it in that we keep this Kosher laws, not in the Old Testament ceremonial rejecting of some meats, but in the New Testament fulfillment of realized significations. The law of clean and unclean meats is fulfilled (kept) by Christ making clean what was unclean. What literal meat we eat does not defile us, it is what spiritual meats we eat that defile us.
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  Matthew 15:11"not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man, but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man."
Eating swine does not defile a Christian, eating, and repeating the doctrines of carnality does. Just as Jesus said, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees (Matthew 16:11-12). He was not talking about "bad bread" that they may have baked, He was talking about their doctrines. Unless we understand these Spiritual truths, we miss the whole point of eating clean and unclean things. The law is intact, but the unclean has been made clean by Christ so that there is no transgression of the law concerning it.

So once again we see that Christianity does not teach that the law is done away with, it teaches that the law is fulfilled in Christ. The coming of Jesus makes it lawful to eat the meats that the Old Testament law forbade, because that law's requirements are satisfied in the cleansing of Christ. We are not transgressing the law because God has cleansed what was before unclean. And we cannot now call the meat God has cleansed, common or unclean. For we know it's not about meats for the belly, it's about unclean men and their doctrines. Just as we know it's not about slaughtered lambs (clean animals) and their blood on a door post, it's about Christ and his shed blood on our building. The very same principle of "types" applies. As the Old Testament law of sacrifice clearly talked about animals, but applied to Christ. So the Old Testament laws of unclean meats applied to people. Just as the Old Testament law saying we had to go to Jerusalem three times a year referred to going to literal Jerusalem, but applied to the purpose (3) of our communion with Christ, our true Holy City. As the law where we couldn't plant two different kinds of seed in a field, or the law of circumcision, and so on and so forth. They are all not done away with, but fulfilled in Christ who they shadowed. They all looked forward to the Coming of Christ. Circumcision is still required, but it is those who are circumcised in Heart by Christ, the fulfillment of that Old Testament everlasting law. These are the true Children of God, not those circumcised in the flesh. So why would we want to put ourselves back under the "BONDAGE" of the law, when Christ has fulfilled or satisfied it, that it does not condemn us? For it is self evident that those who rely on observing the Old Testament law are still under the curse, for it is written:
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Galatians 3:10~"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is everyone that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them"
Clearly, no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous shall live by faith." Not their own, but the faith of Christ in satisfying the law. For any law based on man's feeble faith, is based on man's works of obedience. And by the works of the law, shall no one on earth ever be saved. Except in the faith of Christ, in His completed work.
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Galatians 2:16~   "knowing that a man is not justified by the Works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be Saved!"
By the finished or completed work of Christ we are saved, not the works of our obeying the law. In Him, we have our rest from our works. If we could keep the Old Testament law ourselves, we wouldn't need Christ. But no man could or can. And so Christ went to the cross and redeemed us from the curse of the law. He became a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who hangeth on a tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, and that by faith we might take hold of the promise of the Spirit. If we are truly saved, we are not condemned by the laws that God gave to Israel. Jesus took care of that--it was the whole point of His life, death and resurrection. If His atonement was sufficient (and it was) then the Old Testament law holds no condemnation for us.

Now that being said~is the law of God our rule of life to walk by? YES INDEED, for there's no standard of righteousness higher than God's moral law of righteousness that we see summed up in his ten commandments! Paul said:
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Romans 7:25~"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
With the mind......meaning, his new man that was created after the image of Jesus Christ. 

 

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: th1b.taylor on Mon Apr 24, 2017 - 09:57:26
Continual bickering instead of biblical resolution!  It is so simple if you will understand a couple of things.
1. The Bible is the first 39 books that have been misnamed, the Old Testament.  These represent the scrolls, the Bible Jesus and Paul taught from.  That makes the New Testament 27 God inspired/authored Life Application Commentaries.
2.  The scriptures, from "In the Beginning..." through the very last word of Revelation 22 is of one context.

Because of the truth of these two principles of these two truths the prime rule of Hermeneutics I use is also true, No Scripture can be fully understood without the light of all scriptue shinning on it.

And the most beautiful word picture in the scriptures of Jesus is the 10 Commandments!
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Jaime on Mon Apr 24, 2017 - 10:06:13
I agree Bill.

Matthew 22:36-40 (New International Version (NIV)

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

In Jesus' statement he directly quoted from Deuteronomy 6 and Leviticus 19. It's all ONE story.

Also, good post Red!
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Mon Apr 24, 2017 - 16:09:29
SwordMaster, From what I understand, God's Laws do not change. Psalms 119:89 says this: "Forever, O Lord, your word is firmly fixed in the heavens." The divine Laws apply to ALL mankind no matter the place or time period. If they change, as you suggest, then I suppose they would not be very true- faithful, constant, reliable, unfailing, without variation. Psalm 19:7 says this: "The  law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul, The testimony of the Lord is sure..." I would say that since God's Law is perfect there would be no need to change it.


We cannot say that since the Scripture itself tells you right there in black and white, in Heb. 7:12 that they did change.

I think that perhaps you are confusing modality with the actual black and white. In other words, all of the 10 commandments are taken up into the Law of Christ, but have changed in their modality. For example, the sabbath law is no more...we are not sinning by doing things on the sabbath other than just sitting around watching TV all day long. The sabbath, according to Heb. ch's 3-4, is found today in Christ, He is our sabbath rest.

The INTENT behind the law is the same (love), but the modality of the way it has been presented in Scripture has changed, just as the Scriptures state.

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: th1b.taylor on Tue Apr 25, 2017 - 16:50:00
I agree Bill.

Matthew 22:36-40 (New International Version (NIV)

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

In Jesus' statement he directly quoted from Deuteronomy 6 and Leviticus 19. It's all ONE story.

Also, good post Red!
It has long been my heart yo help fplks to see this truth,  If Preachers and other teachers would teach these truths, the Church could be reunited beford the LORD returns.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Wed Apr 26, 2017 - 14:23:10
I agree Bill.

Matthew 22:36-40 (New International Version (NIV)

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

In Jesus' statement he directly quoted from Deuteronomy 6 and Leviticus 19. It's all ONE story.

Also, good post Red!
It has long been my heart yo help fplks to see this truth,  If Preachers and other teachers would teach these truths, the Church could be reunited beford the LORD returns.

Yep, and this is fulfilled in the Law of Christ, where we are told to love others. Unfortunately, simply everyone doing this will not reunite the splintered factions of the church, because they are splintered through false doctrines. Simply loving everyone around us does not annul false teachings.

Blessings!

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: RB on Thu Apr 27, 2017 - 13:54:38
Quote from: Red
The law is a schoolmaster to BELIEVERS not unbelievers.

Quote from: SwordMaster
Another blatant contradictory statement that goes directly against what the Word of God clearly teaches. I am no longer amazed at your comments...
Let Paul settle this argument.
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Galatians 3:1-24~"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith."
Here in Galatians chapter three and the following chapter that I will post are the two most important words in Paul's writings that he gives to instruct the children of God's promises concerning the two important doctrines~"Faith and its use and the law of God and its purpose"~two doctrines that many are very confused concerning. With Galatians three along with Romans four, we have two chapters that are so misunderstood, and the truth is, that neither are for a beginners in Christ, but does take a season saint to give them their proper sense, without question. Both of these two chapters were very difficult for me to totally grasp hold of until many years into my walk with God.
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Romans 4:1-25~"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."
In BOTH places the subject of FREE JUSTIFICATION are under consideration. In BOTH places works are rejected as having anything to do with our justification. In BOTH places the SYSTEM OF FAITH is the system which God chose for his people to serve him under and for them to come to the knowledge of the truth of their FREE JUSTIFICATION~In Galatians Paul clearly tells us the purpose of why God gave us his law.

Now, let me come back and glean through each chapter so some can maybe understand these two wonderful chapters in our NT a little better. If one does not understand Romans four and Galatians three, then their understanding of the true gospel is greatly hindered to speak kindly. 
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Pkbrother on Thu Apr 27, 2017 - 14:36:17
The purpose of the Law is to show us our sin
Romans 7:7   i would not have known sin if it were not for the Law.......

If we do not have law to convict us we do not have sin...and we dont confess and therefore we are not saved.......
Look at our society...no laws ...worst morality of any christian nation in generations.....
Judges 21:25
every man did what was right in his own eyes........

All Christians sin after making a committment to Christ.,....
I john 1:8
if we claim to be without sin...we decieve ourselves and the truth is not in us.

The Law in the form that Christ brought has to remain......
The Law of Moses was changed in Christ but not distinguished as we need to be  reminded of our sins
so that we are not decieved.......

Basically the Law of Moses is still in effect in the Middle East........
If you take away this strict law and put Western freedom on them caos will happen....
We tried to impose our freedom on these countries.....iraq, egypt, lybia.....

it is the same with new christians.....if you try to take away strict rules in their life to quickly they cannot function properly.....



Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: RB on Thu Apr 27, 2017 - 15:19:03
The purpose of the Law is to show us our sin
Yes, it does, but only to cause believers to look to Jesus' faith and obedience as our only hope to enter into life eternal. A true understanding of our sins in the light of the law's demands for perfection in thoughts, and deeds from conception to death. Sin in one area, then one becomes guilty of all and thereby falls under its eternal condemnation.
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Galatians 3:24~"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith."
The Law of God was given to be a schoolmaster for the children of God's promises to bring us unto a knowledge of our need of Jesus Christ and HIS PERFECT OBEDIENCE as the only means whereby we are freely justified before God. The law when rightly understood as to WHY God gave it, reveals to us as the ONLY righteousness that can justify sinners, who are UNABLE to do what the law of God demands one to have in order to have a right to eternal life. Now once we come to this knowledge BY FAITH then the law has served its purpose with us IN THIS AREA, and we are no longer under it AS A SCHOOLMASTER.
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Galtians 3:25~"But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster"
Yet we are under it as a perfect rule of life, to walk by for there's no standard of righteousness higher than God's standard of righteousness which his law declares and demands.


Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Pkbrother on Thu Apr 27, 2017 - 16:13:24
The caution i would hold out as Gentiles we tend to discard the Law of Moses and even the Judgements in the Law of Christ
taking grace as a license to sin.......

Law is like a police officer...or speed limits....take it away and people run over people and speed......

A Christian who is a believer and maturing should be led by the Spirit and need less Law......

but we all sin as Chrisitans and need the Law to remind us of our sins........

Our pastor said this when He was pulled over for speeding thinking he was under grace and the police officer would give him a pass since the police officer knew he was a pastor......
the officer said this
"pastor you of all people should know why I have to give you a ticket"

If we think the God of the NT is different and He will treat us differently than the Jews in the OT we are sadly mistaken
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: bel on Fri Apr 28, 2017 - 03:16:10
SwordMaster, Again, God's Laws do not change. The Word that Jesus spoke was the SAME WORD that was made known to man in the beginning and is the SAME WORD by which we live today.  Any changes that occurred came about through man. For example, the ONLY sacrifice that God ever asked for is that we give our best, willingly, from the heart. Nothing else will do. The ritual practice of animal sacrifices was that of other gods, and some of this is reflected in the law of the Old Testament. This is why we are told in Thessalonians to test everything, even the Bible. This was part of Israel's problem. They worshipped the Scripture, and it became a stumbling block for them.  However, as Jesus said, if they would have known God, they would have been able to tell the difference between what is true and what is false. This goes for us as well.


 
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Alan on Fri Apr 28, 2017 - 08:01:38
SwordMaster, Again, God's Laws do not change. The Word that Jesus spoke was the SAME WORD that was made known to man in the beginning and is the SAME WORD by which we live today.  Any changes that occurred came about through man. For example, the ONLY sacrifice that God ever asked for is that we give our best, willingly, from the heart. Nothing else will do. The ritual practice of animal sacrifices was that of other gods, and some of this is reflected in the law of the Old Testament. This is why we are told in Thessalonians to test everything, even the Bible. This was part of Israel's problem. They worshipped the Scripture, and it became a stumbling block for them.  However, as Jesus said, if they would have known God, they would have been able to tell the difference between what is true and what is false. This goes for us as well.


 


What a bunch of fabricated hogwash! Other gods????
The Lord, our God, did indeed place the sacrificial system into motion with instruction for all Israelite's to follow it to the letter.


When you fully understand Christ's position on the law and how we are to approach it with respect to Jesus being the only way to eternal life, then you'll fully understand the heart of the new man created, over and above the letter of the law.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Fri Apr 28, 2017 - 11:06:16
bel said...


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SwordMaster, Again, God's Laws do not change.

bel, not to be too blunt or anything, but you are not giving us anything but your own uneducated opinion. I gave you Scripture that directly tells you that the law did change, and by stating that it didn't, you are calling God a liar because He is the one that says that it did.

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The Word that Jesus spoke was the SAME WORD that was made known to man in the beginning and is the SAME WORD by which we live today.
 

No, it isn't...do you need to ask for forgiveness today if you eat any kind of crustacean or shellfish? No, you don't...therefore the law has changed.

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Any changes that occurred came about through man.


No, no change of law came about by man, it came about by Christ when He fulfilled the old covenant and its law, abrogated them both, and then set up the New Covenant with its new law, the Law of Christ. I really hate to say this to you, but your education on this subject is sorely lacking.

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For example, the ONLY sacrifice that God ever asked for is that we give our best, willingly, from the heart. Nothing else will do.


Wrong again, for God told Moses these instructions for sacrifices...

Leviticus 5:18
He shall bring to the priest a ram without blemish out of the flock, or its equivalent for a guilt offering, and the priest shall make atonement for him for the mistake that he made unintentionally, and he shall be forgiven.

that is only one...there are many more. However, you are correct in one aspect...if the heart is not right before God then the person's sacrificial offering means little.

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The ritual practice of animal sacrifices was that of other gods, and some of this is reflected in the law of the Old Testament.


Negative, it was not a common thing to shed blood only for sacrifices in pagan cultures, when they killed, they didn't kill mercifully to their gods, they did things like put them alive in fire and burned them alive, they would sacrifice their own children in the fire, they would kill virgin women as sacrifices to their gods. You are sorely mistaken here...and any resemblance to blood in God's sacrificial system with other pagan cultures is purely incidental, and was not "borrowed" from any other culture.

Similarities do not make two different systems convergent in any way, except in our minds. The Greek and Roman gods sometimes were said to take on human form...so do you believe, then, that Christ took on human form because they did?

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This is why we are told in Thessalonians to test everything, even the Bible.


Yes, and that is why we are testing your claims and finding them to be in error.

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This was part of Israel's problem. They worshipped the Scripture, and it became a stumbling block for them.
 

that is actually incorrect, too...they came to worship the law and the temple, not Scripture; and that didn't take place until just before, and during, the Intertestamental Period between Malachi and Matthew. The just before part we can see in Jeremiah...

Jeremiah 7:3-12
3 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Amend your ways and your deeds, and I will let you dwell in this place.
4 Do not trust in these deceptive words: 'This is the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD.'
5 "For if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly execute justice one with another,
6 if you do not oppress the sojourner, the fatherless, or the widow, or shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not go after other gods to your own harm,
7 then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave of old to your fathers forever.
8 "Behold, you trust in deceptive words to no avail.
9 Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, make offerings to Baal, and go after other gods that you have not known,
10 and then come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, 'We are delivered!'--only to go on doing all these abominations?
11 Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, I myself have seen it, declares the LORD.
12 Go now to my place that was in Shiloh, where I made my name dwell at first, and see what I did to it because of the evil of my people Israel.

We have people who do this today with grace, so God would say, "Do not trust in these deceptive words, 'It's all by grace, its all by grace, its all by grace!'" They didn't so much actually worship the temple, but they placed their faith in the temple - that because they were the chosen people of God, they could do anything and just come to the temple, sacrifice, do the prescribed things, and walk out of there gold in God's eyes. They were sorely mistaken, and went into exile for that mistake.

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However, as Jesus said, if they would have known God, they would have been able to tell the difference between what is true and what is false. This goes for us as well.

This is true, and that's why we have so many churches pastored by men who can't tell what the truth is because they don't walk with God, they claim to know God, but by their doctrines they demonstrate that they are actually self-deceived liars. Paul, Peter, and Jude talk about those people...
 


Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: bel on Sat Apr 29, 2017 - 00:29:32
Alan, According to 2Corinthians 3:6 "the letter kills but the Spirit gives life. So if I am understanding you correctly, what you are suggesting is that God instructed Israel in the ways of death.?

SwordMaster, The Word of God came before the Levitical law as John 1:1 says, the Word there in the beginning. Did Abraham, Isaac Jacob etc. have to ask forgiveness for eating shellfish? I don't think so. According to Genesis 9:3 "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things even as the green herbs."

According to Jeremiah, God never instructed Israel on burnt offerings and sacrifices. Jer. 7:22 says this: "For I did not spek to your fathers or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices."

This is also in black and white.
Isaiah 1:11 "What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me? says the Lord. I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed cattle and I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls lambs or goats."
Isaiah 66:3 "He who kills an ox is like one who slays a man. He who sacrifices a lamb is like the one who breaks a dog's neck; he who offers a grain offering is like one who offers swine's blood; He who burns incense is like the one who blesses an idol. As they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations. "
Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire. My ears You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require. "

There are many more verses like these as well. Are you calling God a liar?

The prophets, especially Isaiah and Jeremiah, speak of the works that are pleasing to God. Example Isaiah 58:6-10
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: th1b.taylor on Sat Apr 29, 2017 - 10:36:34
Rom 2:14  For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
Rom 2:15  They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
Rom 2:16  on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3  For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4  in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:5  For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6  For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
Rom 8:7  For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
Rom 8:8  Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9  You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Rom 8:10  But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:14  For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Heb 8:13  In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The 613 commandments were all part of the Law.  They are contained within the Pentateuch, and that's why the Pentateuch is called the Law by Jews.    This was the constitution for the nation of Israel.

In Christ there is no more Jew and Gentile but one new man in Christ.

Eph 2:14  For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
Eph 2:15  by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
Eph 2:16  and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

1Ti 1:6  Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion,
1Ti 1:7  desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.
1Ti 1:8  Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
1Ti 1:9  understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers,
1Ti 1:10  the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,
1Ti 1:11  in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.
1Ti 1:12  I thank him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, appointing me to his service,
1Ti 1:13  though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief,
1Ti 1:14  and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15  The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.
1Ti 1:16  But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.
1Ti 1:17  To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

The purpose of the Law was to condemn.   In Christ we have been freed from the Law's condemnation.  Thus Christ rendered it obsolete.   Those who want to continue in the Law today are those who want to use it to condemn others.     

Those who are led by the Holy Spirit do not need to refer to a written list to know in their hearts that murder is wrong.
The purpose of the Law is two fold.  The Law teaches us how Holy any member of the triune God is and it is one of the most beautiful word pictures of the, then coming, Christ in the scriptures and Second point is it is the target we all strive for if we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Mon May 01, 2017 - 17:47:05
bel said...

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SwordMaster, The Word of God came before the Levitical law as John 1:1 says, the Word there in the beginning. Did Abraham, Isaac Jacob etc. have to ask forgiveness for eating shellfish? I don't think so. According to Genesis 9:3 "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things even as the green herbs."

You are confusing yourself, bel. In the beginning, where you claim that the Word came into being, God did not give man (or any animal) meat to eat...first off...so you are way out in left field here. God only gave every green plant and fruit for food, for both animals and man. Re-read Genesis 1-3. No animals were eaten until after the flood...T-Rex ate plants until that time, just like the ox...

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According to Jeremiah, God never instructed Israel on burnt offerings and sacrifices. Jer. 7:22 says this: "For I did not spek to your fathers or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices."

bel, you apparently do not understand how to interpret the Scriptures. You have to harmonize them with one another, and when we do that, God certainly did not give them any commands for sacrifices "the day" that He brought them out of Egypt...it wasn't for another 3 months that they made it through the desert to Mt. Sinai, when He DID give them the law along with the sacrifices for atonement.

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This is also in black and white.

Isaiah 1:11 "What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me? says the Lord. I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed cattle and I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls lambs or goats."
Isaiah 66:3 "He who kills an ox is like one who slays a man. He who sacrifices a lamb is like the one who breaks a dog's neck; he who offers a grain offering is like one who offers swine's blood; He who burns incense is like the one who blesses an idol. As they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations. "

Yes...and again...if you learn to read the Scriptures properly, taking their context into light, at these points God is dealing with the people because they would sacrifice to Him and make their atonement, and then go right back out and do the very same wicked things for which they were killing sacrifices for. In other words, they were being hypocrites.

Read Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy again...God did give Israel sacrifices for atonement, and to say that He didn't is to demonstrate a lack of understanding even basic logic. No insult intended.

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Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire. My ears You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require. "

yes, and in context, God did not originally desire burnt offerings, but since the people didn't have a heart after God, He had to institute the rules of atonement and sacrifice...

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There are many more verses like these as well. Are you calling God a liar?

No, bel, but I understand how to correctly interpret the Scriptures, so I know by looking at their contexts that they are not addressing what you think.

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The prophets, especially Isaiah and Jeremiah, speak of the works that are pleasing to God. Example Isaiah 58:6-10

Yes...


Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: th1b.taylor on Tue May 02, 2017 - 11:39:44
Paul tells us what we as gentile Christians need to do
Acts 21 v 25
With regard to the Gentiles who have believed, we have written a letter containing our decision that they should keep themselves from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality."

Oh so "do not murder" does not apply? "Do not steal"?

Christians are taught not to kill or steal, also its all part of loving others as you love yourself.

Where do you suppose "do not kill" came from? Where do you suppose "do not steal" came from? Even "love your neighbor as yourself", where do you suppose this command came from? These are all commandments of the law, open your eyes.
 


A christian shouldnt even need to be told not to do those things. If we love God and love our neighbour we wont kill them or steal from them.
I wish that were true but, it isn't.  As followers of Jesus, the Christ, we call anyone on the Church Roll a Christian, that is not true!  A survey by the people at Barna people asking, only, the people that attend three or more services a week, basic questions such as: Do you believe in the Virgin Birth, do you believe Jesus died to pay for your sins, and Do you believe Jesus is returning to take you to heaven?

As I'm instructed that it was done Double Blind to protect every individual and not even the pastor knew who answered what?  I suggest that some of them that answered affirmatively, lied.  That is Human nature for a man or woman that is not in Jesus.

The result is distressing because it is unthinkable that it is so, low.  Less than 10% of the 10 to 15% that attend 3 or more services a week translates out to about, maybe, 2% and I am doing my best to be generous.  If you are mathematically inclined there is no need to tell me that I did my math wrong, I know that but I'm trying to be generous.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Pkbrother on Tue May 02, 2017 - 16:23:30
Everything in the bible is written for our learning and is inspi re d or written by the hands of God
Especially the NT

Men of old were divinely inspired by God's hand

The word of God is forever fixed in the heavens
Psalms

The bereans were more noble than those in thessolonica because they searched the acrptureea daily to see if these things wee true
Acts 17

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: bel on Thu May 04, 2017 - 23:02:28
SwordMaster, I tend to be a bit more realistic. Take a look at the creation because what may be known of God is clearly seen as Romans says. Nature takes care of itself. That's the way God made it. If there were no carnivores or scavengers, I suppose there would be a bunch of dead carcasses lying around all over the place. I would say that the unclean animals that the unclean animals that Noah took on the ark were none other than meat eating carnivores. Man was given dominion over the earth and "every creeping thing that creeps on the earth" as it says in Genesis. Abel was raising sheep for a reason. My guess would be that yes, he probably had lamb for Thanksgiving dinner.

As for the Word, as I mentioned before, according to John 1:1, it was there in the beginning. The creation does not operate randomly. By this I mean that the universe and everything in it is formed and ordered by Laws which are unseen. These are the Laws of God by which all thing operate, each according to it's kind. What you are suggesting is that God created man with no Law. If this is the case, then we would be the exception to everything that is made. I don't think so. Man was designed to live by the Laws of love, honesty, truth, treating each other as we would want to be treated ( the Law of reciprocation) etc. etc. If we disobey, we die, plain and simple. The law of ritual animal sacrifices was man's invention. Do you think that God wants us to senselessly slaughter animals for no other reason but to pour it's blood all over the temple for the forgiveness of sin. No. Just try doing the right thing. I believe that works for God, as He says many times in the Old Testament, "Return to Me and I will return to you." I think you are trying to harmonize two things that simply do not go together.   
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Fri May 05, 2017 - 12:39:08
bel said...


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SwordMaster, I tend to be a bit more realistic.


So far, your version of being "realistic" is directly contradicting the Word of God. If that is what you call realistic, then we have some problems.

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Take a look at the creation because what may be known of God is clearly seen as Romans says. Nature takes care of itself. That's the way God made it. If there were no carnivores or scavengers, I suppose there would be a bunch of dead carcasses lying around all over the place. I would say that the unclean animals that the unclean animals that Noah took on the ark were none other than meat eating carnivores.


IF we were talking about a evolutionistic world, then you may have been correct, but we are not. Again, read Genesis again and pay particular attention to the verses that deal with food sources. No animal ate another until after the flood, and man was not given animals for food until after the flood. Therefore, there were no carnivores upon the Ark...they did not adapt into carnivores until after God made it so.

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Man was given dominion over the earth and "every creeping thing that creeps on the earth" as it says in Genesis. Abel was raising sheep for a reason. My guess would be that yes, he probably had lamb for Thanksgiving dinner.


Your guess would be incorrect...what else do sheep bring to the "table" so-to-speak? They produce wool to be made into clothing...THAT would be the more realistic and logical reason, given what the Word of God tells us.

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As for the Word, as I mentioned before, according to John 1:1, it was there in the beginning.

Yes, but you incorrectly assume that the Word was law, and it was not. You seem to be failing to understand that John was specifically utilizing a word picture for Christ. He did so in the first verses of his gospel because he was making a covenantal statement. In ANE covenants, the suzerain king (the one offering the covenant of peace to another king, the vassal) made his covenant and in the presentation of that covenant to the lesser king, it was addressed as the "word" of the Great King. John was directly referencing Isa. 42:6 and 49:8 which tells us prophetically that the Messiah would be the living New Covenant of God to man. In that sense, Christ is the Word of God...and no other. In other words, if Christ was not the Word of the covenant of God, then John would have had no reason to give the word picture of Christ as the Word.

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The creation does not operate randomly. By this I mean that the universe and everything in it is formed and ordered by Laws which are unseen. These are the Laws of God by which all thing operate, each according to it's kind.

My friend, you are not making the distinction between natural laws of nature, which God did place into being, and the LAW of God by which we are to live; and in failing to make that distinction you are perverting your theology.

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What you are suggesting is that God created man with no Law.


Negative, I made no such suggestion. If that is what you see in what I have given you, then you are misinterpreting what I have stated. Also, in speaking of the laws of nature, you cannot say that man was created without law...because there are many laws of nature that keep you breathing and your blood pumping...in that you are confused.

Secondly, man was created without Law TOWARDS God...but then God gave him law, only one commandment - "this tree is Mine, you can eat from any of the others that you want to, but don't touch My tree. The day that you do, you will die spiritually because you disobeyed Me." Therefore, on both counts, you are in error in making the assumption that I suggest no law at creation.

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Man was designed to live by the Laws of love, honesty, truth, treating each other as we would want to be treated ( the Law of reciprocation) etc. etc.


You are quite correct here, but your idea of when it was given to man is quite incorrect. This law was not given until the 10 commandments. Until that time, God made His rules and list of acceptable behavior to men and they either chose to walk with Him, or they chose to walk in the futility of their own minds. No where is there a law given to men from God between "Don't eat of this tree" and the giving of the Commandments...search the Scriptures in between those times and you will find that there is no such handing down of law...there isn't even the HINT of speculation given for law. Paul says...

Romans 5:13
for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

The Law was not given at the beginning of the world, because even Paul emphasizes that the world existed BEFORE the law was given.

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If we disobey, we die, plain and simple. The law of ritual animal sacrifices was man's invention.


Again...you are calling God a liar, because He is the one that gave Moses the instructions on not only how to perform the sacrifices, but also how to cut them up, collect the blood, etc... Your "reality" on this point is a direct contradiction to the Scriptures. No matter what you *think,* the Scriptures are authoritative and demonstrate that your thoughts on this matter are in error...

Leviticus 1:1-9 The LORD called Moses and spoke to him from the tent of meeting, saying, 2 "Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When any one of you brings an offering to the LORD, you shall bring your offering of livestock from the herd or from the flock. 3 "If his offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he shall offer a male without blemish. He shall bring it to the entrance of the tent of meeting, that he may be accepted before the LORD. 4 He shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him. 5 Then he shall kill the bull before the LORD, and Aaron's sons the priests shall bring the blood and throw the blood against the sides of the altar that is at the entrance of the tent of meeting. 6 Then he shall flay the burnt offering and cut it into pieces, 7 and the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire on the altar and arrange wood on the fire. 8 And Aaron's sons the priests shall arrange the pieces, the head, and the fat, on the wood that is on the fire on the altar; 9 but its entrails and its legs he shall wash with water. And the priest shall burn all of it on the altar, as a burnt offering, a food offering with a pleasing aroma to the LORD.

Now then, "the Lord" said...are you still going to call Him a liar? Moses didn't start the practice of sacrifices for atonement, GOD DID!!!

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Do you think that God wants us to senselessly slaughter animals for no other reason but to pour it's blood all over the temple for the forgiveness of sin. No.

Again...right above in black and white...the answer to your question is yes...not "no." Did He want this in His heart? I would say no, He probably prefers us to walk in obedience to Him from the beginning. I say probably because if it wasn't for sin entering the world, then we could not be tested and tried and our faith made strong and we come to completely trust and rely upon Him.

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Just try doing the right thing. I believe that works for God, as He says many times in the Old Testament, "Return to Me and I will return to you." I think you are trying to harmonize two things that simply do not go together.


That is where your understanding fails, too. There is not one thing in the Scriptures, anywhere, that is out of harmony with any other. Why is that, bel? It's because there is only one author of the Scriptures - God - and He does not contradict Himself, anywhere, ever.

that is why when we test your theory here against the Scriptures, as we are told to do, we find that it does not come from the Spirit of God, but rather either from your own mind or from listening to seducing spirits that are not from God. Personally, I think in this case, that it is the first one.

No insult intended, brother.

Blessings!


Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: bel on Sat May 06, 2017 - 10:23:45
Swordmaster, What do you think an unclean animal is? It's not one which doesn't bathe. If this is the case, all animals would unclean. Unclean animals are carnivores which certainly existed before the flood as Noah took them on the ark. Of course God's Law( the Word according to Jesus) existed before Moses.

1.It was wrong to murder. Ex Cain
2. It was wrong to steal. Ex. Joseph and the silver cup, Laban and Jacob
3. It was wrong to lie and cheat. Ex. Esau and Jacob
4. It was wrong to commit adultery. Ex. The incident between Pharaoh, Abraham and Sarah, Joseph and Potiphar's wife
5. Slavery was wrong. Ex. God's plagues on Egypt

Read the Old Testament. The Law was there, and people were accountable to it as there were consequences for breaking it.


Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Alan on Sat May 06, 2017 - 11:11:25
Swordmaster, What do you think an unclean animal is? It's not one which doesn't bathe. If this is the case, all animals would unclean. Unclean animals are carnivores which certainly existed before the flood as Noah took them on the ark. Of course God's Law( the Word according to Jesus) existed before Moses.

1.It was wrong to murder. Ex Cain
2. It was wrong to steal. Ex. Joseph and the silver cup, Laban and Jacob
3. It was wrong to lie and cheat. Ex. Esau and Jacob
4. It was wrong to commit adultery. Ex. The incident between Pharaoh, Abraham and Sarah, Joseph and Potiphar's wife
5. Slavery was wrong. Ex. God's plagues on Egypt

Read the Old Testament. The Law was there, and people were accountable to it as there were consequences for breaking it.


Read your bible  ::idea::
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: 4WD on Sat May 06, 2017 - 14:50:01

You are confusing yourself, bel. In the beginning, where you claim that the Word came into being, God did not give man (or any animal) meat to eat...first off...so you are way out in left field here. God only gave every green plant and fruit for food, for both animals and man. Re-read Genesis 1-3. No animals were eaten until after the flood...T-Rex ate plants until that time, just like the ox...
That is funny; something you are not known for.  What do you think Abel was doing with all those sheep he raised?  Maybe, if you are correct and he was eating the food that Cain was growing, Cain felt he had good reason to get rid of Abel.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Mon May 08, 2017 - 11:36:57

You are confusing yourself, bel. In the beginning, where you claim that the Word came into being, God did not give man (or any animal) meat to eat...first off...so you are way out in left field here. God only gave every green plant and fruit for food, for both animals and man. Re-read Genesis 1-3. No animals were eaten until after the flood...T-Rex ate plants until that time, just like the ox...

That is funny; something you are not known for.  What do you think Abel was doing with all those sheep he raised?  Maybe, if you are correct and he was eating the food that Cain was growing, Cain felt he had good reason to get rid of Abel.

I don't see how you think that's funny...unless you are reading between the lines of Scripture what it neither states or insinuates...

Genesis 1:29
And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food.

Genesis 9:3
Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.

It was not until 8 chapters later...about a thousand years or so...that God gave man "every" animal for food (that includes both 'clean' and 'unclean' by the Law's standard later).

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: dan p on Thu May 03, 2018 - 12:22:31
 Hi and 2 Cor 3:13-15 says why the Law is being set aside and Paul says in verse 15 that  " until " this day a VAIL LIES upon their heart  and Paul in Paul earthly ministry !!

 Also scheck Luke 13:6-9 !!

 dan p
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Alan on Thu May 03, 2018 - 12:42:59
That is funny; something you are not known for.  What do you think Abel was doing with all those sheep he raised?  Maybe, if you are correct and he was eating the food that Cain was growing, Cain felt he had good reason to get rid of Abel.


I don't see how you think that's funny...unless you are reading between the lines of Scripture what it neither states or insinuates...

Genesis 1:29
And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food.

Genesis 9:3
Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.

It was not until 8 chapters later...about a thousand years or so...that God gave man "every" animal for food (that includes both 'clean' and 'unclean' by the Law's standard later).


I wonder why after 1000 years of human life on this planet it was suddenly deemed necessary for us to consume meat? had we been craving it for that entire millennia and then God decided to treat us?


Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: dan p on Thu May 10, 2018 - 18:50:09
  Hi and 2 Cor 3:13-16 says that the Law of Moses  has been  ABOLISHED   as there is a VAIL  upon their hearts  and Paul  UNTIL  this day at the  reading  of the  Old  Covenant the same covering   remains , not being  uncovered  >

 dan p
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Thu May 24, 2018 - 11:47:32

I wonder why after 1000 years of human life on this planet it was suddenly deemed necessary for us to consume meat? had we been craving it for that entire millennia and then God decided to treat us?

The going theory is that there may have been plant life that contained the same protein nutrients which are found in animal meat, and that during the flood they were completely destroyed. Everything that God does is for our benefit...He wasn't "treating us" but rather giving us what we need in order to live healthy lives. The only way vegans make it today is by supplementing their diets with the same proteins found in meat; if they didn't, nor took supplemental vitamins and minerals, then they would not remain healthy.

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Open Heart on Wed May 30, 2018 - 11:33:56
Hi and 2 Cor 3:13-15 says why the Law is being set aside and Paul says in verse 15 that  " until " this day a VAIL LIES upon their heart  and Paul in Paul earthly ministry !!

 Also scheck Luke 13:6-9 !!

 dan p
I read your verses and they say no such thing.  They don't mention the law being set aside at all, much less give a reason for it.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Open Heart on Wed May 30, 2018 - 11:46:31
As a Messianic Jew, I believe fully that the law is not abrogated until heaven and earth have passed away.  I'm lookin' outside my front door and heaven and earth are still there, yessiree!  Not even a single brushstroke will pass away until all is finished, and folks, it's not finished until the Messiah judges the living and the dead.


The question is not whether we should obey God's commands.  Rather, the question should be, what are God's commands to me?  Because not everyone has the same commands.  There are commands God gives to everyone beginning in Genesis, do not murder, do not cheat, do not steal, do not worship other gods.  And there are commands God has given only to the Jews (And the LORD said, Speak to the Children of Isreal...) such as don't eat pork, don't sleep with your menstruating wife, don't wear a wool jacket that has linen button holes...


As a Jewish believer, I aspire to keep the commands given to Israel that apply to me.  A gentile doesn't have to keep kosher or rest on the Shabbat.  They sure can if they want.  But they don't have to. 


And don't forget that we all of us have to love God with all our heart, soul, and strength, and our neighbor as ourselves.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: soterion on Wed May 30, 2018 - 13:02:24
As a Messianic Jew, I believe fully that the law is not abrogated until heaven and earth have passed away.  I'm lookin' outside my front door and heaven and earth are still there, yessiree!  Not even a single brushstroke will pass away until all is finished, and folks, it's not finished until the Messiah judges the living and the dead.

You should reread Jesus words to that affect in Matthew 5:18 in light of what the letter to the Hebrews says about the law. You should see that "heaven and earth passing away" is not the deciding factor regarding the law, but rather it is the "all being accomplished" that decides.

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The question is not whether we should obey God's commands.  Rather, the question should be, what are God's commands to me?  Because not everyone has the same commands.  There are commands God gives to everyone beginning in Genesis, do not murder, do not cheat, do not steal, do not worship other gods.  And there are commands God has given only to the Jews (And the LORD said, Speak to the Children of Isreal...) such as don't eat pork, don't sleep with your menstruating wife, don't wear a wool jacket that has linen button holes...


As a Jewish believer, I aspire to keep the commands given to Israel that apply to me.  A gentile doesn't have to keep kosher or rest on the Shabbat.  They sure can if they want.  But they don't have to.

So, God gives different laws according to the fleshly identity of people, despite the fact that in Christ all are subject to the New Covenant, regardless if Jew or Gentile? In the New Covenant, God wants all in Christ to follow Him and to be united in the one body, worshiping God and walking daily in Him as one. By dividing what laws people are to follow, you just divided people according to their fleshly identities and made them incompatible. You are keeping the Jews subject to the Old Covenant, thus excluding them from the New.

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And don't forget that we all of us have to love God with all our heart, soul, and strength, and our neighbor as ourselves.

This is why I posted the above to you.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Choir Loft on Mon Jun 10, 2019 - 07:35:30
This study explains why although the Law of Moses has not been abolished, nor can any command therein be disobeyed, certain commands are no longer observed, such as circumcision, festivals, sabbaths, and abstaining from certain foods. The study can be found in English here [url]http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/02/24/explanation-of-the-foreshadows-of-the-law-of-moses-festivals-sacrifices-circumcision-sabbaths-foods/[/url] ([url]http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/02/24/explanation-of-the-foreshadows-of-the-law-of-moses-festivals-sacrifices-circumcision-sabbaths-foods/[/url]) or in Spanish here [url]http://www.sabiduriadedios.co/2017/02/24/por-que-la-ley-no-es-abolida-sin-embargo-la-circuncision-festivales-sacrificios-sabados-alimentos-ya-no-se-observan/[/url] ([url]http://www.sabiduriadedios.co/2017/02/24/por-que-la-ley-no-es-abolida-sin-embargo-la-circuncision-festivales-sacrificios-sabados-alimentos-ya-no-se-observan/[/url]) . Let us begin a discussion on these matters.


Your opening statement begins with misunderstanding and leads to theological error.

Levitical Law totaled some 613 laws.  Following the Babylonian captivity and the writing of the Talmud hundreds more were added.
Mosaic Law totaled 10, while Jesus whittled the number down to 2.

"I did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it." - Jesus quoted by Matthew 5:17

JUDAISM certainly does continue to observe circumcision sabbaths and dietary restrictions.  Consult your local rabbi for a confirmation of these facts.  Sacrifices have ended and certain ceremonial observances have ended simply because there is NO TEMPLE to provide the venue for their observance.  There is no venue to provide a location for animal sacrifices.

Which LAW did Jesus come to fulfill?

CHRISTIANITY today teaches a false lawLESS gospel in that it is said they are saved by grace so that they can live like hell.

I once heard a lengthy sermon on grace delivered by the Dean of a local Bible college.  At the end of the sermon he advocated the congregation, "go out and sin this week that grace may abound."   The purpose of grace is to enable the believer to live according to the Law, thus pleasing God.

CHRISTIANITY today is almost totally gutted of Law.  Most Christians do not know the Law, neither do they know its purpose except to express heated opinion against it.  Therefore sin runs rampant in our houses of prayer.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

The Law still stands. It has NOT been destroyed or abolished.  Further, though many Christians may not know it or acknowledge it, no one can be save apart from the Law.  The issue is lack of education and instruction.  The subject of repentance is almost never discussed in sermons and studies, though it is indeed a foundation for salvation.  Repentance is a hard subject and potentially results in a loss of donation$, which is why it's almost never brought up.

The Law still stands.  Believe it or be buried by it.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

PS
Once upon a time God approached the Arabs and asked if they would like to have His Law.
"What does this law require of us," the Arabs asked.
"Thou shalt not kill," said the Lord of Hosts
"Oh no," the Arabs cried.  "We cannot have such a law. Go away from us."

Then God approached Americans and asked if they would like to have His Law.
"What does this law deny us," the Americans asked.
"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors goods or thy neighbor's wife," God explained.
"No no never," the Americans said.  "We cannot live without covetousness.  Please leave us."

Finally God came to the Jews and asked if they would like to have His Law.
"What does it cost," the Jews asked.
"Nothing," God said.  "My Law is free."
"Good," the Jews said.  "Give us ten."
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SkyWriting on Sun Jul 07, 2019 - 20:53:01
This study explains why although the Law of Moses has not been abolished, nor can any command therein be disobeyed, certain commands are no longer observed, such as circumcision, festivals, sabbaths, and abstaining from certain foods.

Scripture says the laws in ink or stone are obsolete.  They cannot be abolished as they are part of Christian history.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Sun Jul 07, 2019 - 23:08:56
the 10 Commandments have been abolished as originally given, just as Scripture tells us...

Matthew 11:12-13
From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John,

Hebrews 10:9
then He added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Luke 16:16
The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.

Hebrews 8:13
In that He said a new covenant, He abrogates the first one, and it is abrogated and has become old, and vanishing away as we speak.

Hebrews 7:12
For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law [of Moses], having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.


Romans 6:14
For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under the law [of Moses] but under grace.

2 Corinthians 3:11
For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

Hebrews 7:18
Because on the one hand, the former law is abrogated because it was weak and useless,

There...ten verses that tell us clearly and plainly that the old covenant along with its law, was abrogated and replaced by the New Covenant and its new law - the Law of Christ. The only way to get around that in your mind, is to be a modern day Pharisee like these guys (who were denounced for their moronity)...

Acts 15:1
But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

Acts 15:5
But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses."

And what was the Church's response to these yahoo's? They went back to Jesus' teaching when He said that we are not to mix new wine with old wine skins, because they don't mix. The old covenant and everything that came with it is gone today for those who are in Christ, and the 10 commandments and all of the laws that came with the old covenant, came out of the old covenant, they were part of the old covenant.

That covenant is completely gone today, so that means that the old law that you are arguing over is also gone. You can disagree all you want, but you are not disagreeing with me, you are telling God that He doesn't know what He is talking about in His Word. And that puts you in a very dangerous place as a false teacher.


Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: 4WD on Mon Jul 08, 2019 - 07:39:18
You can disagree all you want, but you are not disagreeing with me, you are telling God that He doesn't know what He is talking about in His Word. And that puts you in a very dangerous place as a false teacher.
You really need to stop with that Bovine Scat.  Whether you are correct in this case or not, you do not have any authority with respect to what God means by what He has written.  You are not the arbiter of God's word.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Gerhard Ebersöhn on Mon Jul 08, 2019 - 11:42:36
Code: [Select]
CL: #107that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

PS
Once upon a time God approached the Arabs and asked if they would like to have His Law.
"What does this law require of us," the Arabs asked.
"Thou shalt not kill," said the Lord of Hosts
"Oh no," the Arabs cried.  "We cannot have such a law. Go away from us."

Then God approached Americans and asked if they would like to have His Law.
"What does this law deny us," the Americans asked.
"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors goods or thy neighbor's wife," God explained.
"No no never," the Americans said.  "We cannot live without covetousness.  Please leave us."

Finally God came to the Jews and asked if they would like to have His Law.
"What does it cost," the Jews asked.
"Nothing," God said.  "My Law is free."
"Good," the Jews said.  "Give us ten."

What did you ask the Lord? Does it come with the score?

For most Christians God's Law is for no more than the singing.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Gerhard Ebersöhn on Mon Jul 08, 2019 - 12:34:18
Quote
SM: #109
the 10 Commandments have been abolished as originally given, just as Scripture tells us...

Matthew 11:12-13
From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John,

Hebrews 10:9
then He added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Luke 16:16
The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.

Hebrews 8:13
In that He said a new covenant, He abrogates the first one, and it is abrogated and has become old, and vanishing away as we speak.

Hebrews 7:12
For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law [of Moses], having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.


Romans 6:14
For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under the law [of Moses] but under grace.

2 Corinthians 3:11
For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

Hebrews 7:18
Because on the one hand, the former law is abrogated because it was weak and useless,

There...ten verses that tell us clearly and plainly that the old covenant along with its law, was abrogated and replaced by the New Covenant and its new law - the Law of Christ. The only way to get around that in your mind, is to be a modern day Pharisee like these guys (who were denounced for their moronity)...

Acts 15:1
But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

Acts 15:5
But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses."

And what was the Church's response to these yahoo's? They went back to Jesus' teaching when He said that we are not to mix new wine with old wine skins, because they don't mix. The old covenant and everything that came with it is gone today for those who are in Christ, and the 10 commandments and all of the laws that came with the old covenant, came out of the old covenant, they were part of the old covenant.

That covenant is completely gone today, so that means that the old law that you are arguing over is also gone. You can disagree all you want, but you are not disagreeing with me, you are telling God that He doesn't know what He is talking about in His Word. And that puts you in a very dangerous place as a false teacher.

I with all due disrespect reject this cauldron of cultist religious mampoer you brewed from your MIX and DICING with the pure milk of God's Word.


Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SkyWriting on Mon Jul 08, 2019 - 19:31:59
I with all due disrespect reject this cauldron of cultist religious mampoer you brewed from your MIX and DICING with the pure milk of God's Word.


Unbiased research wins easily over sloppy criticism.  Please do check all the context.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

Hebrews 9:15    
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Luke 22:20
And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

Hebrews 8:6
But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Hebrews 8:7-8
For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. For he finds fault with them when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

2 Corinthians 3:6    
Who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Jeremiah 31:33    
But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Mon Jul 08, 2019 - 20:34:40
You really need to stop with that Bovine Scat.  Whether you are correct in this case or not, you do not have any authority with respect to what God means by what He has written.  You are not the arbiter of God's word.

I am not like you, 4wd...I don't pussy foot around with the Word of God, and unlike yourself, which you have demonstrated many times, I know how to interpret the Scriptures.

There is only black and white. Scripture says that the old covenant along with its law was abrogated, therefore, with the authority of the Scriptures behind me, I will say it again...and if you don't like it, that's really just too bad for you, I'm not the one believing in lies.

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Mon Jul 08, 2019 - 20:37:09
I with all due disrespect reject this cauldron of cultist religious mampoer you brewed from your MIX and DICING with the pure milk of God's Word.

You can all you want to, GE...but the facts remain. You can argue that a rock is a tree all you want, but the facts still remain the same. If you can't see those Scriptural facts, then I suggest you need to start walking with God so that you will have the indwelling Spirit within you to help you see the truth...

1 Corinthians 2:12-14
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.



Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Mon Jul 08, 2019 - 20:40:08

Unbiased research wins easily over sloppy criticism.  Please do check all the context.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

Hebrews 9:15    
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Luke 22:20
And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

Hebrews 8:6
But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Hebrews 8:7-8
For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. For he finds fault with them when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

2 Corinthians 3:6    
Who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Jeremiah 31:33    
But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

It is hard to tell who you are addressing in your post, SW. If you are addressing me, the passages that I give are defined by their contexts, and they all concur that the old covenant and its law are no more. Every word of Paul addresing the law directly references the old covenant, and the reason that he says we are not under the 10 commandments today is precisely because they no longer exist as given to Moses.

Their contexts back what I show.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Ohan on Mon Jul 08, 2019 - 23:31:33
The Law ~ The Ten Commandments
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Gerhard Ebersöhn on Tue Jul 09, 2019 - 01:54:37
Quote
CGA: #6
Where do you suppose "do not kill" came from? Where do you suppose "do not steal" came from? Even "love your neighbor as yourself", where do you suppose this command came from? These are all commandments of the law, open your eyes.

Good.
Now you open your eyes and read John 19:17 Mark 15:22 Matthew 27:33 Luke 23:33a, to, John 19:30 Mark 15:37 Matthew 27:50 Luke 23:46, AND SEE ALL THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LAW -- SEE GOD : "NAILED TO THE CROSS AND TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY".

THEN, keeping open the eyes of your understanding Ephesiens 1:18, read Ephesians 1:19-23 Hebrews 4:4-8 [Exodus 31:17] Colossians 2:12-19 et al, AND SEE ALL THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LAW -- SEE GOD : IN "CHRIST RAISED FROM THE DEAD, EXALTED, AND RESTED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD .. GIVEN TO THE CHURCH AS HEAD".



Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SherryLB on Tue Jul 09, 2019 - 05:58:41
I am not like you, 4wd...I don't pussy foot around with the Word of God, and unlike yourself, which you have demonstrated many times, I know how to interpret the Scriptures.
You are one proud  Pharisee~even your name proves that....SwordMaster, yet your post does not support it. It's all coming from the vanity of your puff up mind.
Quote from: The MASTER of the PHARISEES Yesterday at 20:34:40
There is only black and white. Scripture says that the old covenant along with its law was abrogated, therefore, with the authority of the Scriptures behind me, I will say it again...and if you don't like it, that's really just too bad for you, I'm not the one believing in lies.
Yes, you are the one believing the lie.

The saints are not under the law as the means of entering into life, yet they are UNDER it as a RULE OF LIFE, for there's no greater law that is MORE spiritual, holy and good, than the law of God.

Do you want to debate this with me, Mr. Proud Pharisees?
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: 4WD on Tue Jul 09, 2019 - 06:07:44
I am not like you, 4wd...
And I am not like you, Praise be to God.  The narcissism and arrogance with which you promulgate Bovine Scat is your signature character trait. You demonstrate that at nearly every interchange here at the forum. And you have done it again.




Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SherryLB on Tue Jul 09, 2019 - 06:23:17
And I am not like you, Praise be to God.  The narcissism and arrogance with which you promulgate Bovine Scat is your signature character trait. You demonstrate that at nearly every interchange here at the forum. And you have done it again.
One word for him from heaven:
Quote
Jeremiah 13:23~ "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Gerhard Ebersöhn on Tue Jul 09, 2019 - 08:19:58
Quote
Sword Misser: #115
You can all you want to, GE...but the facts remain. You can argue that a rock is a tree all you want, but the facts still remain the same. If you can't see those Scriptural facts, then I suggest you need to start walking with God so that you will have the indwelling Spirit within you to help you see the truth...

1 Corinthians 2:12-14
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

The one fact Luke 24:25-27;32; 44-46 of ALL SCRIPTURE remain, That "the Rock was Christ" CRUCIFIED on "The Tree of LIFE" .. "and the WRITING was JESUS of Nazareth KING .. WRITTEN IN LATIN, REX LEX".

"Then opened _HE_ Jesus, their understanding that they might understand the SCRIPTURES" .. sorry, no quasi Holy Spirit OF YOURS or mine, thank God! 
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Gerhard Ebersöhn on Tue Jul 09, 2019 - 08:44:12
Quote
SLB: #119
The saints are not under the law as the means of entering into life, yet they are UNDER it as a RULE OF LIFE, for there's no greater law that is MORE spiritual, holy and good, than the law of God.

The saints are not under the law as the means of entering into life, BECAUSE they are under and in and "with CHRIST hidden in God" WHO IS the LAW OF GOD their RULER and LORD OF LIFE, for there's no greater Law that is more "SPIRITUAL, HOLY and GOOD", than the WORD OF GOD because "there is only ONE that is good", the WORD OF LIFE.

Of course the Christian all day long his whole life through meditates on the OT Law of the Holy Scriptures, but of course because they have one God-given and God-Inspired worth, to WITNESS OF THE LIVING JESUS THE CHRIST OF GOD.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SkyWriting on Tue Jul 09, 2019 - 21:15:46
It is hard to tell who you are addressing in your post, SW.

It very easy to tell. ::destroyingcomputer::
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Tue Jul 09, 2019 - 21:38:50
You are one proud  Pharisee~even your name proves that....SwordMaster, yet your post does not support it. It's all coming from the vanity of your puff up mind. Yes, you are the one believing the lie.

The saints are not under the law as the means of entering into life, yet they are UNDER it as a RULE OF LIFE, for there's no greater law that is MORE spiritual, holy and good, than the law of God.

Do you want to debate this with me, Mr. Proud Pharisees?

Another Red...wonderful. Actually, SLB, your tone makes you the proud Pharisee, and I will debate you any time...be prepared to lose.

The passages that I have already posted, in black and white, say that the old covenant and everything that came with it, including the law that came from it, called in Scripture "the law," "the law of Moses," and the "10 commandments," as they were given, have all been abrogated.

Now, if you have some passage that you think negates these, I would love to see it. And don't bother pulling Matthew 5:17-18 on me unless you read it in the Greek and see where most translations today butcher the text.

Waiting your prideful reply...

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Tue Jul 09, 2019 - 21:41:26
And I am not like you, Praise be to God.  The narcissism and arrogance with which you promulgate Bovine Scat is your signature character trait. You demonstrate that at nearly every interchange here at the forum. And you have done it again.

Sorry, drive...but your name calling won't help you any. And don't call my confidence in my knowledge of Scripture as narcissism or arrogance. It's not my fault if you are not as knowledgable on Scripture as I am. That's not pride or arrogance, that's just the facts.

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Tue Jul 09, 2019 - 21:42:36
One word for him from heaven:

You are pretty young here to be saying anything about anyone, SLB. I would curb my tongue if I were you, because you don't have a bit of sense of what you are talking about.

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Tue Jul 09, 2019 - 21:47:58
The saints are not under the law as the means of entering into life, BECAUSE they are under and in and "with CHRIST hidden in God" WHO IS the LAW OF GOD their RULER and LORD OF LIFE, for there's no greater Law that is more "SPIRITUAL, HOLY and GOOD", than the WORD OF GOD because "there is only ONE that is good", the WORD OF LIFE.

Of course the Christian all day long his whole life through meditates on the OT Law of the Holy Scriptures, but of course because they have one God-given and God-Inspired worth, to WITNESS OF THE LIVING JESUS THE CHRIST OF GOD.

See, this is where your limited knowledge and understanding of Scripture throws you guys off. You are under law, its just a different law, the Law of Christ. You fail to understand this because you fail to understand or have accurate knowledge of covenants. Every covenant has law...and the old law that came with the old covenant, was done away with and replaced by the new law (of Christ) in the New Covenant.

You are still under law, and only those caught up in the false teachings of calvinism and the like, deny that very fact.

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Tue Jul 09, 2019 - 21:49:30
It very easy to tell. ::destroyingcomputer::

Actually, only in your own mind, perhaps. Nonetheless, if you were addressing my post, then you are off point. Nothing you posted as context changed what I posted...because I always consider the context in my interpretations...just like we are supposed to do.

But nice try.

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: 4WD on Wed Jul 10, 2019 - 05:09:56
Sorry, drive...but your name calling won't help you any. And don't call my confidence in my knowledge of Scripture as narcissism or arrogance. It's not my fault if you are not as knowledgable on Scripture as I am. That's not pride or arrogance, that's just the facts.
Nothing in what I posted was name calling. It was just an observation of the character you display here.  As for being knowledgeable, perhaps you should bone up on the spelling of the word before you taut it as one of your qualities.  ::frown::
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SherryLB on Wed Jul 10, 2019 - 05:49:51
You are pretty young here to be saying anything about anyone, SLB. I would curb my tongue if I were you, because you don't have a bit of sense of what you are talking about.
I will not enter into a war of words with you because it would only take me away from allowing the light of Jesus Christ from shinning through me as I'm commanded for it to do.
Quote from: SwordMaster on: Yesterday at 21:38:50
Another Red...wonderful
The wisest thing you said in your four posts, and thank you for the great compliment, it was a honor sir.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SherryLB on Wed Jul 10, 2019 - 06:28:32
The passages that I have already posted, in black and white, say that the old covenant and everything that came with it, including the law that came from it, called in Scripture "the law," "the law of Moses," and the "10 commandments," as they were given, have all been abrogated.
Well now, let's see who is still wet behind the ears, I'm pretty I know, and so does 4WD. It is YOU, that thinks he knows, yet we both know that he does not know.
Quote from: Paul
1st Timothy 1:6-8~"From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling. Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;"
You sir, have turned aside to vain jangling and do not know how to use the law of God properly. You are nothing more than a loud noise maker foming out of your own shame, a wandering star, to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

The holy apostles used the law of God properly, for proof consider and learn:
Quote from: James
James 2:8-11~"If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
I have many more, but I do not want to overload your little mind. 
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Wed Jul 10, 2019 - 16:25:06
Nothing in what I posted was name calling. It was just an observation of the character you display here.  As for being knowledgeable, perhaps you should bone up on the spelling of the word before you taut it as one of your qualities.  ::frown::

Wow...that's the best you've got?

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Wed Jul 10, 2019 - 16:27:23
I will not enter into a war of words with you because it would only take me away from allowing the light of Jesus Christ from shinning through me as I'm commanded for it to do.The wisest thing you said in your four posts, and thank you for the great compliment, it was a honor sir.

HA! First, agreeing that you are another Red is a very sorry case that you make for yourself, there is no honor there at all, only blindness.

Second, what you call 'light' is nothing more than a shadow of the light, you have already demonstrated that in the few words that you have spoken out of complete ignorance of the Word.

Starting off not so good there, on your part.

But anyways, lets get back to Scripture, shall we?

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Wed Jul 10, 2019 - 16:43:58
Yep, a chip off the old Red block...probably one of his misguided church members...

Quote
Quote from: SwordMaster on Yesterday at 21:38:50

   
Quote
The passages that I have already posted, in black and white, say that the old covenant and everything that came with it, including the law that came from it, called in Scripture "the law," "the law of Moses," and the "10 commandments," as they were given, have all been abrogated.


Well now, let's see who is still wet behind the ears, I'm pretty I know, and so does 4WD. It is YOU, that thinks he knows, yet we both know that he does not know.

Talk about vain and arrogant...

Quote from: Paul

   
Quote
1st Timothy 1:6-8~"From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling. Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;"

You sir, have turned aside to vain jangling and do not know how to use the law of God properly. You are nothing more than a loud noise maker foming out of your own shame, a wandering star, to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

You really are demonstrating yourself really pathetic here. I gave Scripture that demonstrates that the old covenant and its law has been abrogated, and rather than give any kind of Scriptural evidence that you think states otherwise, instead...you give your rants and ravings about calling someone a lost unsaved person (which will get you a Warning from the board if you keep it up).

What you do, is demonstrate that you don't know what you are talking about, and because you have nothing to say Scripturally about the topic at hand, you (like your uncle Red) revert to underhanded nonsense spouting, attributing passages of Scripture to others which, undoubtedly, actually refer to yourself. So...my advice, is put your money where your mouth is and produce some kind of Scripture that you think proves me wrong. Either that, or kindly shut your cake hole.  ::smile::

Quote
The holy apostles used the law of God properly, for proof consider and learn:
Quote from: James

    James 2:8-11~"If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

I have many more, but I do not want to overload your little mind. 


Yaaaahhhhh......well, that has absolutely nothing to do with the current topic. Care to explain out of your little mind how this applies? If (and that's a big if, seeing as how you put yourself out there as being knowledgeable of the Scriptures), you are trying to say that because James says "law" that the law he is referring to is the 10 commandments...if that is your point, in that somehow it means the 10 commandments are still in effect today...IF that is your point, you are sadly mistaken and demonstrate that you don't know how to properly and accurately interpret Scripture.

Since the KJV is warped and full of translation errors, we will look at it from the original Greek in a thought-for-thought translation...

Quote
8   If you really carry out the Royal Law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” to its intended goal, then you are doing well.   
9   But if you show favoritism to certain people, then you are sinning and will be convicted by the law as transgressors.   
10   Because whoever keeps the whole law of Moses but falls into sin on even one point, he has become accountable for breaking all of it.   
11   Because He who commanded, “Do not commit adultery,” also commanded, “Do not murder.” So, if you do not commit adultery, but you go out and murder someone, then you have become a transgressor of the law.
   

First, since you obviously don't see it, the law that James first addresses is the Royal Law (that is, the Law of Christ, NOT the 10 commandments). Second, he is comparing the two laws against one another...the Law of Christ against the law of Moses, which he only addresses as "law" in word, but as seasoned theologians understand, he intends the law of Moses. How do we know that? Because the Law of Christ does not say "do not commit" this or that; the Law of Christ says, "love on others."

Failing to understand the difference between the two laws, just as your uncle Red does, causes you to make grievous errors in your interpretation of the Word of God.


Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: 4WD on Thu Jul 11, 2019 - 05:57:47
Wow...that's the best you've got?
That'll do for now.  Besides, for much of what you post you are so far out in left field it is not worth any more.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: 4WD on Thu Jul 11, 2019 - 06:06:46
Because the Law of Christ does not say "do not commit" this or that; the Law of Christ says, "love on others."
Interesting.  I guess that means you think it is acceptable for you to put down your terminally ill wife or child whom you love just as you would your terminally ill dog whom you love.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SkyWriting on Thu Jul 11, 2019 - 22:14:40
Interesting.  I guess that means you think it is acceptable for you to put down your terminally ill wife or child whom you love just as you would your terminally ill dog whom you love.

I don't love my dog the same.  There are at least 4 types of "love".
Pizza, dogs, prostitutes, and mom all get different types of love.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Thu Jul 11, 2019 - 22:23:20
That'll do for now.  Besides, for much of what you post you are so far out in left field it is not worth any more.

Another way of conceding that you have lost the argument.

That's OK...because you did lose, and bad. Scripture is black and white on the matter, and the only way someone can look at what Scripture teaches on the subject and still cling to the idea that we are under the 10 commandments, is to cherry pick the Bible to death.

Have at it. You used to be worth conversing with...what happened since I stopped posting?

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Thu Jul 11, 2019 - 22:24:52
Interesting.  I guess that means you think it is acceptable for you to put down your terminally ill wife or child whom you love just as you would your terminally ill dog whom you love.

Aha......where'd that come from? Now you are starting to sound like AVZ...arguments out of thin air that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.


Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Thu Jul 11, 2019 - 22:25:39
I don't love my dog the same.  There are at least 4 types of "love".
Pizza, dogs, prostitutes, and mom all get different types of love.


 ::thumbup::

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: 4WD on Fri Jul 12, 2019 - 06:27:38
Have at it. You used to be worth conversing with...what happened since I stopped posting?
Your egoism and narcissism became much too tedious to deal with; that and your lop-sided view on too many topics in theology.
Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: SwordMaster on Fri Jul 12, 2019 - 20:12:47
Your egoism and narcissism became much too tedious to deal with; that and your lop-sided view on too many topics in theology.

No, no, no...I don't mean what your fleshly opinions are, I mean what happened to the Drive that used to at least think about what was being addressed. Now, all you have done from the start is act just like Red...you KNOW what I mean, unless of course the idea is so repugnant to you that you are ignoring it.

There is only one difference between your theology and mine - and that is understanding that the NT is not a testament, but a covenant...and you fail to understand covenant and that God utilizes it as His means of the gospel.

You don't understand covenant, so your views are skewed and that skewing causes you to see my theology as lop-sided. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

Title: Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
Post by: Ohan on Sun Apr 12, 2020 - 17:16:14
The Law All Ten ~ is not Abolished ~ custom falls away like unwanted clothes ```