Author Topic: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??  (Read 5352 times)

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Offline dan p

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Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« on: Fri Aug 13, 2010 - 19:57:23 »
 Hi to all and many believers say that the Body of Christ began at Pentecost .

 I say that it began with the Apostle Paul in Acts 9:6 , where PAUL was saved by the Grace of God .

 I will just begin with  ONE  proof .

 In Rom 1:1 , we read , a literal translation ;  PAUL , a slave of Christ Jesus , a called apostle having been  SEPARATED    for God's gospel .

 #1 , the Greek word for  SEPARATED   is  APHORIZO  .

   Aphorizo can be translated by the word  BOUNDRIES !

   Aphorizo can be translated by the word LIMITED !!

  Aphorizo can be translated by the word SEPARATED !!

  This means that PAUL  was  LIMITED  to only preach the Gospel of God which another word for the Gospel of the Grace of God , Acts 20:24 or Gal 1:11-12 .

 #2 , Anyone can check and see the APHORIZO  is in the Greek Perfect Tense .  

 The perfect tense means ,  Past  Action  with  Continuing  Results .  

  Here is an example of the Perfect Tense , where Christ on the cross said  " it is finished "  that is also in the Perfect Tense and that means that Christ death is the Past  Tense and since coming down just keeps on SAVING  People without having to go back on the cross and die  AGAIN and the Perfect  Tense lets us know Christ will never be put back on a CROSS . JOHN 19:30 .

 #3 , it is also in the Passive Voice , because it is Christ doing the Action to PAUL IN  Rom 1:1 .

 #4 , It is also in the Indicative Mood , which means , it is a FACT .

 #5 , It also means that PAUL will never go back and be Pharisee and practice the Law again .

 #6 , Then , PAUL can only preach the Gospel of God !!

 #7 , From this point on , PAUL  will only preach the Gospel of the Grace of God  , Acts 20:24 .

 #8 , Paul , never preached what Jesus or the 12 apostles preached !!!

« Last Edit: Sat Aug 14, 2010 - 12:23:51 by dan p »

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Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« on: Fri Aug 13, 2010 - 19:57:23 »

Offline AvrilNYC

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #1 on: Fri Aug 13, 2010 - 20:25:14 »
#8 , Paul , never preached what Jesus or the 12 apostles preached !!!

Is this a joke? or ignorance?

Offline rezar

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #2 on: Fri Aug 13, 2010 - 20:28:10 »
To me, the "body of Christ" or the church, began while He was with the apostles at the Lord's supper.

Matt.26:26,
Jesus Institutes the Lord’s Supper
  
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.

blituri

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #3 on: Fri Aug 13, 2010 - 22:05:28 »
When the vinegar was offered to the dying Jesus He said "it is finished." That means that the prophecies concerning him were each FINISHED or fulfilled.

Jesus had not died: you abandon the work of Jesus.
Jesus had not been placed in the tomb: you have no pattern for baptism
Jesus had not been inspirited: you still have a dead Jesus.
Jesus had not been resurrected: you lose it all.
Jesus had not Ascended to  heaven.
Jesus had not taken His blood into the heavenly Tabernacle.
Jesus in Spirit had not returned on Pentecost as promised to be with His Body.

SO? I suppose that IT was not ALL finished?

Offline dan p

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #4 on: Sat Aug 14, 2010 - 12:11:30 »
#8 , Paul , never preached what Jesus or the 12 apostles preached !!!

Is this a joke? or ignorance?

 Hi , and I am not joking , and that means  YOU  checked it out and you think it is a joke ??

 What do you think Rom 1:1 , and what SEPARATED unto  the Gospel of God mean ??

 And many have said I am a 3rd grader , liar , goofy , and now ignorant , so NOTHING  new here !!!

 

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
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Offline Josiah

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #5 on: Sat Aug 14, 2010 - 13:50:23 »
.


IMHO....

The Body of Christ began in the heart of God before the Creation.




.

Offline dan p

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #6 on: Sat Aug 14, 2010 - 17:57:20 »
.


IMHO....

The Body of Christ began in the heart of God before the Creation.




.

 Hi Josiah , you are right about , before creation .

 PAUL  was it's first member and there are 2 verses that support that PROOF , that the Body of Christ was  KNOWN  before creation  and it will and  OP . DAN P

arleigh

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #7 on: Mon Aug 16, 2010 - 14:13:12 »
Jesus made it plain that He had to leave so the comforter could come (the Holy spirit) The Holy Spirit is Jesus presents as well.John 14;16
Jesus made the identification of him self ,too when He implied Him self to be the bride groom.
Matthew 9;14,15, Matthew 25;1-  John 3;29,
  But this is not the husband / wife relationship most are willing to yield to.
 In this relationship the wife is not ordering her husband around. He is supirrior in decision making, there is no level of equality in any way.
To know the things Jesus wants, that He would excersize His Lordship, one must ask, and put them selves in direct servitude and dependence.
   Obedience is always better than having to ask for forgiveness. Matthew 7;21,22,23,
 But this marriage, is a figure of things, I would not declare literaly. Jesus also said it is better not to marry. Choosing to marry splits loyalties. This is a fact.
 Making the assumption that there is one body I believe is a mistake on Pauls part especially in reference to gifts . Jesus said these signs will fallow, those that believe. Mark 16;17,18
 One does not tempt God to prove something, Matthew 4; that is just plain wrong.
 I can tell you for a fact I know these signs personally, and many others as well besides my self. the Holy spirit is very interactive with those that are willing to obey the things Jesus taught. God sees from the inside out, your heart is transparent .
 Seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness.
 Obey Him.
He said listen to Jesus ,
Listen to Jesus.
 

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #8 on: Mon Aug 16, 2010 - 14:44:22 »
And many have said I am a 3rd grader , liar , goofy , and now ignorant , so NOTHING  new here !!!
...and you're feeling especially righteous for putting up with "persecution?"

Offline dan p

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #9 on: Mon Aug 16, 2010 - 17:05:37 »
And many have said I am a 3rd grader , liar , goofy , and now ignorant , so NOTHING  new here !!!
...and you're feeling especially righteous for putting up with "persecution?"

 And I did not say that , and so far I have been called IGNORANT AND RACIST and you   say I am being 
 persecuted ,  I do not think so !!!

 Why did you not instead comment on the OP , INSTEAD ???

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #10 on: Tue Aug 17, 2010 - 00:18:37 »
And many have said I am a 3rd grader , liar , goofy , and now ignorant , so NOTHING  new here !!!
...and you're feeling especially righteous for putting up with "persecution?"

 And I did not say that , and so far I have been called IGNORANT AND RACIST and you   say I am being 
 persecuted ,  I do not think so !!!

 Why did you not instead comment on the OP , INSTEAD ???
Didn't I already comment in one of the other 7 threads about the same thing?

Seriously, there's no need to keep making new threads about the same thing.  Stop doing it.

Offline canuck

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #11 on: Tue Aug 17, 2010 - 15:01:27 »
Hi to all and many believers say that the Body of Christ began at Pentecost .

 I say that it began with the Apostle Paul in Acts 9:6 , where PAUL was saved by the Grace of God .

 I will just begin with  ONE  proof .

 In Rom 1:1 , we read , a literal translation ;  PAUL , a slave of Christ Jesus , a called apostle having been  SEPARATED    for God's gospel .

 #1 , the Greek word for  SEPARATED   is  APHORIZO  .

   Aphorizo can be translated by the word  BOUNDRIES !

   Aphorizo can be translated by the word LIMITED !!

  Aphorizo can be translated by the word SEPARATED !!

  This means that PAUL  was  LIMITED  to only preach the Gospel of God which another word for the Gospel of the Grace of God , Acts 20:24 or Gal 1:11-12 .

 #2 , Anyone can check and see the APHORIZO  is in the Greek Perfect Tense .  

 The perfect tense means ,  Past  Action  with  Continuing  Results .  

  Here is an example of the Perfect Tense , where Christ on the cross said  " it is finished "  that is also in the Perfect Tense and that means that Christ death is the Past  Tense and since coming down just keeps on SAVING  People without having to go back on the cross and die  AGAIN and the Perfect  Tense lets us know Christ will never be put back on a CROSS . JOHN 19:30 .

 #3 , it is also in the Passive Voice , because it is Christ doing the Action to PAUL IN  Rom 1:1 .

 #4 , It is also in the Indicative Mood , which means , it is a FACT .

 #5 , It also means that PAUL will never go back and be Pharisee and practice the Law again .

 #6 , Then , PAUL can only preach the Gospel of God !!

 #7 , From this point on , PAUL  will only preach the Gospel of the Grace of God  , Acts 20:24 .

 #8 , Paul , never preached what Jesus or the 12 apostles preached !!!



So according to your dispensational theology, those whom God separated unto Himself before the Day of Pentecost are not part of the Body of Christ? Is that your take on it?

The Body of Christ is an invisible organism representative of all who believe in the God of the Bible -- both Jews and Gentiles. Christ is the Saviour of all regardless of whether they lived prior to or after Pentecost. Was Enoch then (the noteworthy OT patriarchal example of holiness who walked with God so closely that the Lord took him) not under the blood of Jesus Christ? The error of dispensational teaching is the failure of its proponents to realize that those who were elected to salvation in Jesus Christ from before the foundation of the world (cf. Eph. 1:4 ) are representative of all recorded history. It's the same blood atonement that justifies them in the sight of God (cf. Heb. 10:4-10). OT believers placed faith in God's promised Messiah. They looked forward to the consummation of God's redemptive plan - - a plan that was fulfilled through the substitutionary death of the Lord Jesus Christ. Similarly, those who were saved after Pentecost look back on what has already been accomplished.
Thus the ekklesia (or "called out ones" is a term reflective of all the redeemed saints of all generations, though they are under two separate covenants. They have all been recipients and beneficiaries of the Gospel i.e. salvation through Messiah alone.


canuck

Offline dan p

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #12 on: Wed Aug 18, 2010 - 12:20:17 »
[quote author=canuck

 Hi canuck , and if you want to know about who gave the Law , you look at Exodus and those books that explain that position !!

 If you want to know about what the Body of Christ is , then you look to the Apostle of Grace , to whom Dispensational truth  was given , like Rom 16:25 or Eph3:1-9 or Gal 1;6-12 and Gal 2:7 !

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #13 on: Wed Aug 18, 2010 - 14:48:43 »
Quote
Dispensational truth
Now there's an oxymoron, if ever there was one.

Offline dan p

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #14 on: Wed Aug 18, 2010 - 17:22:08 »
Quote
Dispensational truth
Now there's an oxymoron, if ever there was one.

 Oxys means sharp !

 Mora means foolish !!

 Which means a figure of speech ?

  One was for the time of the Law of Moses !!

  The , other by  PAUL ,  SPOKE ABOUT Dispensational truth  and these two are the word of God and not a contradictory  figures of speech .

Saul 25

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #15 on: Wed Aug 18, 2010 - 22:13:02 »
The word church is the word assembly, a group of people together for a purpose.  So when did a group of people come into existence that believed in Jesus Christ?  Definitely when the 12 apostles were chosen, the assembly of Christ had to start when there was an assembly that believed in Christ.  Now the assembly that believed in Christ and that was indwelt by the Holy Spirit did not start until Pentecost.

Offline winsome

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #16 on: Thu Aug 19, 2010 - 05:30:01 »
#8 , Paul , never preached what Jesus or the 12 apostles preached !!!

Is this a joke? or ignorance?

It's dispensationalism.

dan's church began with John Darby about 150 years ago, about 1,850 years after ours.

Offline dan p

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #17 on: Thu Aug 19, 2010 - 14:05:52 »
#8 , Paul , never preached what Jesus or the 12 apostles preached !!!

Is this a joke? or ignorance?

It's dispensationalism.

dan's church began with John Darby about 150 years ago, about 1,850 years after ours.

 Hi winsome , since you say about 150 years ago ,  MAYBE  you will tell me where DISPENSATIONALISM   began in the Bible ??

 Have you read 1 Cor 9:17 ,  " a Dispensation of the Gospel is committed unto me ."

 Have you read Eph 3:2 , where the Holy Spirit wrote by  PAUL ,  " IF YE HAVE HEARD of the DISPENSATION  of the Grace which is given me you-ward .

 And in Eph 3:3 , it is called the Revelation of the MYSTERY , like in Rom 16:25 .

 It looks like to me , that you have  MISSED  IT  BY 1850 YEARS .

Offline winsome

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #18 on: Thu Aug 19, 2010 - 15:51:44 »
#8 , Paul , never preached what Jesus or the 12 apostles preached !!!

Is this a joke? or ignorance?

It's dispensationalism.

dan's church began with John Darby about 150 years ago, about 1,850 years after ours.

 Hi winsome , since you say about 150 years ago ,  MAYBE  you will tell me where DISPENSATIONALISM   began in the Bible ??

 Have you read 1 Cor 9:17 ,  " a Dispensation of the Gospel is committed unto me ."

 Have you read Eph 3:2 , where the Holy Spirit wrote by  PAUL ,  " IF YE HAVE HEARD of the DISPENSATION  of the Grace which is given me you-ward .

 And in Eph 3:3 , it is called the Revelation of the MYSTERY , like in Rom 16:25 .

 It looks like to me , that you have  MISSED  IT  BY 1850 YEARS .

Dispensationalism was invented by John Darby.  Just because a word is used in the KJV doesn't mean you can twist it's meaning and make up a brand new theology from it.

Qute me an Early Father who said there were two gospels. No-one believed this for 1850 years until Darby invented it.


Offline dan p

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #19 on: Thu Aug 19, 2010 - 16:55:48 »
#8 , Paul , never preached what Jesus or the 12 apostles preached !!!

Is this a joke? or ignorance?

 It looks like to me , that you have  MISSED  IT  BY 1850 YEARS .

Dispensationalism was invented by John Darby.  Just because a word is used in the KJV doesn't mean you can twist it's meaning and make up a brand new theology from it.

Qute me an Early Father who said there were two gospels. No-one believed this for 1850 years until Darby invented it.



 Hi , and since you say that was invented , just maybe you can reveal to me what DISPENSATION  means in Eph 3:1-9 , and say why the Holy  Spirit had PAUL USE IT ??    John  Darby was a church father , never heard that one before , it is funny !!!

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #20 on: Thu Aug 19, 2010 - 17:06:31 »
Actually, not even Darby went this far.  He suggested the idea of dispensations, but not different gospels.

What dan is talking about is Ultra-Dispensationalism.  Even a lot of the dispensationalists denounce it.

Jarrod

Offline dan p

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #21 on: Thu Aug 19, 2010 - 18:45:25 »
Actually, not even Darby went this far.  He suggested the idea of dispensations, but not different gospels.

What dan is talking about is Ultra-Dispensationalism.  Even a lot of the dispensationalists denounce it.

Jarrod


 Hi , WS , BUT I  AM NOT a Hyper or Ultra -dispensationalist , but I accept Pauline Dispensationalist  and those that call us that , have no idea what Dispensationalism really is .

 The other side of Dispensationalism is Covenant Theology and Acts 2 believers .

Offline winsome

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #22 on: Fri Aug 20, 2010 - 04:39:51 »
#8 , Paul , never preached what Jesus or the 12 apostles preached !!!

Is this a joke? or ignorance?

 It looks like to me , that you have  MISSED  IT  BY 1850 YEARS .

Dispensationalism was invented by John Darby.  Just because a word is used in the KJV doesn't mean you can twist it's meaning and make up a brand new theology from it.

Qute me an Early Father who said there were two gospels. No-one believed this for 1850 years until Darby invented it.


 Hi , and since you say that was invented , just maybe you can reveal to me what DISPENSATION  means in Eph 3:1-9 , and say why the Holy  Spirit had PAUL USE IT ??    John  Darby was a church father , never heard that one before , it is funny !!!

John Darby a church father!!! He wasn't born until 1800 years after Christ. The Church had been running for 1770 years before he came along.

The word dispensation is only used in the KJV (& derivatives). In other translations the word oikonomian is translated as stewardship (NAB, Amplified, RSV) or administration (NIV), which indicates the way dispensation should be used- as a method of administering not a time period which John Darby seems to has used it as.

From the Online Etymological Dictionary
dispensation
late 14c., from O.Fr. despensation, from L. dispensatio "management, charge," from pp. stem of dispensare (see dispense). Theological sense is from being used to translate Gk. oikonomoia "office, method of administration."

Note that last bit Theological sense is from being used to translate Gk. oikonomoia "office, method of administration.

From the Oxford English Dictionary
dispensation
noun
1   the action of dispensing.

dispense 
verb
1   distribute to a number of people. (of a machine or container) supply or release (a product or cash). (of a chemist) supply (medicine) according to a prescription.
2   (dispense with) get rid of or manage without.
3   exempt (someone) from a religious obligation.


ORIGIN
   Middle English: via Old French from Latin dispensare 'continue to weigh out or disburse', from dispendere, based on pendere 'weigh'.
Dispensation is not therefore about a time period but a method of administration - how something is dispensed (distributed/given out).
When Paul refers to the dispensation of grace, he is not referring to a time period, this is a misuse of the term, but to the method of dispensing grace.

This is how the Catholic Church uses the term.

I quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1076 The Church was made manifest to the world on the day of Pentecost by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The gift of the Spirit ushers in a new era in the "dispensation of the mystery" the age of the Church, during which Christ manifests, makes present, and communicates his work of salvation through the liturgy of his Church, "until he comes.". In this age of the Church Christ now lives and acts in and with his Church, in a new way appropriate to this new age. He acts through the sacraments in what the common Tradition of the East and the West calls "the sacramental economy"; this is the communication (or "dispensation") of the fruits of Christ's Paschal mystery in the celebration of the Church's "sacramental" liturgy.
It is therefore important first to explain this "sacramental dispensation" (chapter one). the nature and essential features of liturgical celebration will then appear more clearly (chapter two).

1088 "To accomplish so great a work" - the dispensation or communication of his work of salvation - "Christ is always present in his Church, especially in her liturgical celebrations……

1092 In this sacramental dispensation of Christ's mystery  the Holy Spirit acts in the same way as at other times in the economy of salvation…..
Grace is given through the sacraments of the Church and this is why the Catechism refers to the “sacramental dispensation of Christ's mystery

Offline dan p

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #23 on: Fri Aug 20, 2010 - 15:21:36 »
[quote author=winsome link=topic=46795.ms

Protestant “Dispensationalists

Offline winsome

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #24 on: Fri Aug 20, 2010 - 15:37:39 »
Quote from: winsome link=topic=46795.ms

Protestant “Dispensationalists

Offline dan p

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #25 on: Fri Aug 20, 2010 - 15:46:57 »
Quote from: winsome l.

 
[/quote

You mean your prefer your made up meaning to the Oxford English Dictionary and the Entymological Dictionary

According to the greek translator I have it mean management of a house. In other words stewardship or administration.

It's about dispensing grace, the fruits of Christ's saving work. It's the method of administering that.

Though what that has to do with "two gospels" I don't know

 Hi winsome ,and your last line says it all , " I don't know ."   If you have a question about Dispensationalism , I can answer for just me and do not  ASK  MY  OPPOSITION  or my OPPONENTS  ,  because they will say  : I don't know " also as you have just written from their  DEFINITIONS .

Offline OldDad

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #26 on: Fri Aug 20, 2010 - 20:07:14 »
Paul clearly says THE mystery was specifically that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

He also says that he was not the only one this was revealed to, that it had also been revealed to the holy apostles and the prophets.

What Paul received was not a NEW gospel or a replacement gospel or a different gospel, but a further unveiling, revelation, and clarification of God's eternal plan for all people - Jew and Gentile alike -  to be saved through Jesus Christ. 

I encourage everyone to read "Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth" by Dr. H. A. Ironside.  You will find it to be of great benefit when ultra-dispensationalists begin to speak in their usual circles.

Here's a link: http://www.cnonline.net/~rkmiller/ultradispensationalism-ironside.htm

Offline dan p

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #27 on: Fri Aug 20, 2010 - 20:14:41 »
Paul clearly says THE mystery was specifically that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

He also says that he was not the only one this was revealed to, that it had also been revealed to the holy apostles and the prophets.

What Paul received was not a NEW gospel or a replacement gospel or a different gospel, but a further unveiling, revelation, and clarification of God's eternal plan for all people - Jew and Gentile alike -  to be saved through Jesus Christ. 

I encourage everyone to read "Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth" by Dr. H. A. Ironside.  You will find it to be of great benefit when ultra-dispensationalists begin to speak in their usual circles.

Here's a link: http://www.cnonline.net/~rkmiller/ultradispensationalism-ironside.htm


 Hi Old Dad , and I see that you did not prove the OP WRONG AND JUST GAVE me your opinion and I have seen Ironsides tract .  I do not have time today , but be assured that tommorrow will answer  Ironsides assumption .

Offline winsome

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #28 on: Sat Aug 21, 2010 - 02:53:12 »
dan,

perhaps you could start a thread specifically on your two gospels theory, explaining and justifying it.

Offline dan p

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Re: Where did the Body of Christ begin ??
« Reply #29 on: Sat Aug 21, 2010 - 16:14:22 »
dan,

perhaps you could start a thread specifically on your two gospels theory, explaining and justifying it.

 Hi winsome , will do .