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Author Topic: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed  (Read 2540 times)

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Offline SwordMaster

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CG said...

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Your answers are too long, so I'm going to keep this short, because it doesn't take much to throw everything you're saying out the door.


You demonstrate your ignorance of the Scriptures, my friend. There is nothing that you can say to 'overthrow' what I have given you to consider, except for the fact that you are not even considering what you have been shown. That is bias defending, not truth seeking...

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A simple answer should suffice, if you are right.

Again, you demonstrate ignorance not only of the Scriptures, but how to correctly interpret them. You cannot take one "simple" passage for any stand...for or against the point of the OP, or for or against any subject matter in the Scriptures...and for you to think that you can, demonstrates that ignorance. You do not know very much about Biblical Hermeneutics, do you?

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Let us begin with one simple scripture, Jesus Christ said this,

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (Matthew 5:17 [NIV])

So if Jesus Christ did not come to abolish the law, why do you teach that the law is abolished? You're teaching the opposite of this scripture.


Negative, young padowan. The FACT that I can produce (and have produced) 7 passages that clearly state that the law of Moses has been abrogated, and that you can only come up with one (which you are misinterpreting for your cause) that you *think* states otherwise...is evidence that you are arguing out of your bias rather than out of the Scriptures and their intended meaning.

Use the "long answer" excuse all you want to in effort to short circuit my posts, but you will fail nonetheless because you are in error. Paul theoretically shuts your mouth here...

Galatians 3:10
Because as many as adhere to the works of the law of Moses are under a curse: because it is written, "Cursed are all those who do not persevere in all that is written in the book of the law, to do them.

and

Galatians 5:2-3
2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.

This is what you are telling people...and it is the same thing that others were saying that Paul was trying to save people from...

Acts 15:1
But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

Acts 15:5
But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses."

As I state earlier which you evidently ignored, regarding the verse you consistently keep misinterpreting...

Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

1.  He had already fulfilled all the law, because if He had not, then He would not have been able to begin His Messianic ministry. He fulfilled all the law in His first 30 years of life...and if you disagree with that fact, then you have greater problems in your theology than you first appear to have.

2.  Having already fulfilled all the law, He abrogated it when He inaugurated the New Covenant at His baptism; from that moment forward, all that He did was in teaching about the New Covenant kingdom of God. Again, if you disagree on that point, then you are in really deep water.

3.  Jesus used the exact same teaching style which He utilized in addressing John the Baptist being the fulfillment of the Elijah prophecy...

Matthew 17:10-13
10 And the disciples asked him, "Then why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?"
11 He answered, "Elijah does come, and he will restore all things.
12 But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands."
13 Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist.

The only difference between how Jesus taught here about John, and about how He came to fulfill the law, is that in the passage above He immediately explains, AFTER speaking about Elijah as if his coming was still future tense, He explained to them that "Elijah has already come." Understand?

If you understood covenanting in this manner, then you would understand that with the inauguration of the New Covenant, the Old was automatically disanulled...if it has not been, then the New Covenant can not come into authority, and we are all still in our sins, needing to daily sacrifice animals for our sins.

Again, you are a modern day Pharisee, and you are in great error.

So is the law abolished, yes or no? Pick one.

This is part and parcel of your problem, CG. You lump all law together as if it is one, and it is not.
The law of Moses is gone as far as the Christian is concerned.
The Law of Christ is the law of the New Covenant which era we are under today.

If you can't get that simple fact, then your theology will be forever slanted.







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Offline SwordMaster

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Not abolished but fulfilled, as Jesus said.

Actually, fulfilled first, and the abolished because it served its purpose...just as the Scriptures say.


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Offline SwordMaster

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Alan, the Law of God is still in effect today. Jesus did not amend or change any of the Law. He fulfilled it, meaning He measured up to the requirements of the Law.

bel, do you not know the Scriptures? Or are you calling the Spirit a liar...

Hebrews 7:12
For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

When Christ became the Great High Priest of the New Covenant, He changed the law...just as the passage clearly states.


Offline SwordMaster

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Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Regardless of what fulfilled meant, the underlined above is quite clear. Forming a theology that does away with the observance of the details of one of God's commandments, would certainly fall under the designation of breaking the commandment and teaching others to do so as well.

Negative, amo, which you have been shown before and rejected.

Teaching men to love one another fulfills all the law, it does not break any of the 10 commandments, but rather fulfills them all, just as the Scriptures teach over and over again.

You cling to the law because you are a modern day Pharisee, and no reason other than that.


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Offline bel

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SwordMaster, From what I understand, God's Laws do not change. Psalms 119:89 says this: "Forever, O Lord, your word is firmly fixed in the heavens." The divine Laws apply to ALL mankind no matter the place or time period. If they change, as you suggest, then I suppose they would not be very true- faithful, constant, reliable, unfailing, without variation. Psalm 19:7 says this: "The  law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul, The testimony of the Lord is sure..." I would say that since God's Law is perfect there would be no need to change it.
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 24, 2017 - 05:01:43 by bel »

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Offline Truthcomber

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Howdy All,


Bel wrote:


SwordMaster, From what I understand, God's Laws do not change. Psalms 119:89 says this: "Forever, O Lord, your word is firmly fixed in the heavens." The divine Laws apply to ALL mankind no matter the place or time period. If they change, as you suggest, then I suppose they would not be very true- faithful, constant, reliable, unfailing, without variation. Psalm 19:7 says this: "The  law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul, The testimony of the Lord is sure..." I would say that since God's Law is perfect there would be no need to change it.


My Response:


Bel, are you sure that David was talking about the old covenant law? 

Psalm 119: 97 MEM. O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day…113 SAMECH. I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love….127 Therefore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold…144 The righteousness of thy testimonies is everlasting: give me understanding, and I shall live…

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Comment: Do you think that King David, who will be great in the kingdom of God, and who had the holy spirit in him, and who mediated on God’s commandments all day long was doing so with the old testament commandments?  No!!! Psalms 119 parallels Rom 7:12.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant  the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
 
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Comment: Why are Christians dead to the OT law? Because it doesn’t have the spirit in it—it is of the letter only.

Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
 
Comment: You cannot fulfill the old covenant law in the letter.

Matt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments…

Comment:  Notice “these” In Matt 5:19.  It is referring to all of the precepts in Matt 5,6 and 7.  This is the spirit of the New covenant. 

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour:  10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Comment: The Lord fulfilled the law when he gave his live for us. This was the greatest love of all.  This established the new covenant. We fulfill the law when we love our neighbor as ourselves and love God above all things.  Until all have done this, the new covenant law is not fulfilled.

Online RB

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Law #1 The Royal Law of Liberty
Quote from: Truthcomber
Law #2 The Moral Law
They are ONE and the SAME. Yes, you are correct~
Quote from: Truthcomber
Christ fulfilled all of the law when he died for us.
So every saint of God are dead to the law, as far as the law having power to bring us under its condemantion through the body of Jesus Christ, he being the head and his chosen seed the members of his body.
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Romans 7:1-4~"Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God."
Just as a woman is free from the law of marriage at the death of her husband and is free to marry again, so every child of God is free from the curse of the law of God by the death of Jesus Christ, PROVEN by his resurrection from the dead for our legal justification before God so that we can inherit eternal life, and not face the second death, which is the lake of fire where one shall perish under the curse of God's law.
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Re: Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sabbaths Not Observed
This is indeed a good question. If Christ said He came not to destroy the law, why don't we still observe the Old Testament laws? The answer is, we do! We continue to observe those laws in Christ who fulfilled (completed) them. When we consider all of the scripture, in context, it is clear in what sense we delight in the law of God, and in what sense we reject the works of the law for the gospel of Jesus Christ. First~
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Matthew 5:17~"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
By fulfilling the law Christ satisfied all its requirements in our stead. In other words, the 'required' obedience to such laws are fulfilled in Him. Therefore, "in Christ" DID we keep all the law faithfully, and cannot be accused. In this way, we can no longer be judged by any of the everlasting laws, because those laws having been satisfied, we are now under the Grace of God~AS FAR as inheriting eternal life. There is not one thing we are commanded to DO so as to secure our hope of eternal life, or else Christ is of NO use to us, by thinking we must do this or that.
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1st Corinthians 15:56~"The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law."
How did Christ fulfill the law? Except Christ had atoned for our sins, satisfying the law, we would stand guilty before God of the whole. But because He has in our stead satisfied all the law, there is now no condemnation.
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Romans 8:1-2~"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
The law stands, but it cannot condemn the saints because we are made free from the law in Christ Jesus, in whose righteousness we now stand. We are dead to the law only in the sense that Christ died redeeming us from the consequences of it, not Because there is no law left for the unsaved. For that would mean no one was guilty by law of anything before God. And so clearly New Testament Christianity doesn't do away with the Old Testament laws, they stand in the revelation that the Messiah came to fulfill or satisfy what was required, that those laws will not now condemn us. He brought the law to completion, having stood as a substitute for us, that the strength of sin (the law) would not condemn us.  An example would be the Old Testament seventh day Sabbath, which was a type or shadow that looked forward to our true "Rest" in the Messiah, wherein we cease from our own works. That everlasting law to keep that Sabbath of Rest is fulfilled or satisfied in Christ. It is through His works that we have and will enter into rest, and cease from the requirement of our works. Without the perfect works, we would have been condemned by the law, but because of Christ Jesus and His perfect obedience , we rest from the requirement of works in Him. The Old Testament rest of the Sabbath looked forward to this saving Grace, wherein we cease from works. Therefore, it being fulfilled or completed, we would no more rest on the seventh day Sabbath as we would sacrifice a Lamb on an altar, or put blood on our door posts. And for the exact same reasons. Namely, those everlasting laws have not be abrogated, they are fulfilled in the sacrifice of Christ and His shed blood. Those ceremonial laws were shadows of Christ, who has now come fulfilling them. We can't arbitrarily take one law of sacrificing a Lamb and say we must keep this one, while discarding all the other Old Testament laws which God clearly said were also everlasting laws. We have to keep the whole law, or else keep none. With men this is impossible, but with God it is.
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James 2:10~"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
In other words, if we're going to keep old testament laws, then we better make sure we keep all of them, including all implied laws of adultery by thought and murder by hate. Which of course is impossible, except in Christ. What Christian do you know today who claims to follow the Old Testament law is going to Jerusalem three times a year? Because that is the law of God. What Christian follows the law of splashing blood on the door posts? That also is the law of God. But you see, there are some groups who want to pick and choose (depending upon their traditions) what Old Testament laws they want to keep, and which ones they exclude themselves from. But the law isn't a salad bar where we take what we want, and leave the rest. If we are indebted to one law, we're indebted to all the laws. Thank God Christ fulfilled "all" the law, and that includes the law of God's Sabbath rest. This is illustrated for us in passages like Hebrews 4:1-11. That true rest is of the Kingdom of God. We keep the everlasting Sabbath by being in Christ, our true Sabbath of Rest. Our completion (7) of the sojourn, is in Him. The seventh day Sabbath was a shadow looking forward to Him. And with the coming of Christ (the True), the shadow preceding this Real is passed away. The requirement of the Old Testament law is then satisfied. ie., Christ came not to do away with the law, but to satisfy it. He came to bring the conditions of the law into completion. ..to fulfill it!

Likewise, the laws concerning unclean meats which were an illustration that nothing unclean was to come unto the children of Israel, was completed in Christ. With the New Testament, that veil of mystery concerning it has been lifted for us. "The Old Testament concealed is the New Testament revealed!" If one does not accept the authority of the New Testament, then the Old Testament is still concealed to them. The fact is, the Gentiles "were" seen as heathen Dogs and Swine, the animals deemed unclean. Those Old Testament laws illustrated that the Children of God were not to mingle themselves with them. Jesus himself used that very same idioms for Gentiles in the book of Mark:
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Mark 7:27~"But Jesus said unto her, Let the Children first be filled, for it is not meet to take the Children's bread, and cast it unto dogs."
God told the Children of Israel that the Heathen nations that they possessed were "unclean" and they were not to mingle with them. The Gentiles were generally unsaved, and God was using the unclean animals as a "type" whereof the Children of Israel were not to partake of their doctrines and traditions, but separate themselves from them. They were not to partake of these people's meats. This is why the unclean meats were let down unto Peter three times to signify that the Gentiles were now cleaned to be included as Children of God. It is explained in Acts 10:28.
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"And He said unto them, ye know that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation, But God Hath Showed Me that I should not call any man common or Unclean!"
   
Of course, if one is not born of God from above and doesn't accept the revelation of the Old Testament in light of the New Testament, then these words of God ring hollow. But the Truth is, the Gentiles were "generally" the unsaved, and as such were pictured by God as the unclean Dogs and Swine. But God hath cleansed them also, and they were no longer to be considered unclean. Again, this is seen when Jesus talks about the unsaved and unrepentant in passages such as Matthew chapter seven:
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"Give not that which is Holy unto the Dogs. Neither cast ye your pearls before Swine, lest they trample them under foot, and turn again and rend you."
   
These are types of unsaved people, and they are spoken of as these unclean animals. God knows what he is doing and saying, even when we do not. This isn't incidental or coincidental language. It's God breathed and divinely significant. The law of unclean animals is not done away with, it is "still" kept in Christ, because it pertained to the separation of God's people from the heathen. The difference now is that Christ has made the unclean gentiles, Clean. And those cleansed by Christ cannot be called common, as they now come into the Covenant Olive Tree as branches of the Israel of God. We see this again in verses such as Acts 11:6-9 where Peter sees a basket of unclean meats, and will not eat, but God corrects him saying, what He has Cleansed, don't call it common or unclean. Then it is explained that this illustrated that salvation was not only to the physical nation of Israel, but was to go to the Gentile people as well. This is not speculative teachings about unclean meats, it is what God has written there. It's not what goes into the mouth that makes one unclean, it's what comes out of it. Out of the Gentiles came the unclean meats or doctrines. But now they are as the unclean meats, made clean by God. The Gentiles would now also come with the word of God. And what God has now cleansed, call that not unclean.

How did Christ fulfill the law? He has satisfied it in that we keep this Kosher laws, not in the Old Testament ceremonial rejecting of some meats, but in the New Testament fulfillment of realized significations. The law of clean and unclean meats is fulfilled (kept) by Christ making clean what was unclean. What literal meat we eat does not defile us, it is what spiritual meats we eat that defile us.
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  Matthew 15:11"not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man, but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man."
Eating swine does not defile a Christian, eating, and repeating the doctrines of carnality does. Just as Jesus said, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees (Matthew 16:11-12). He was not talking about "bad bread" that they may have baked, He was talking about their doctrines. Unless we understand these Spiritual truths, we miss the whole point of eating clean and unclean things. The law is intact, but the unclean has been made clean by Christ so that there is no transgression of the law concerning it.

So once again we see that Christianity does not teach that the law is done away with, it teaches that the law is fulfilled in Christ. The coming of Jesus makes it lawful to eat the meats that the Old Testament law forbade, because that law's requirements are satisfied in the cleansing of Christ. We are not transgressing the law because God has cleansed what was before unclean. And we cannot now call the meat God has cleansed, common or unclean. For we know it's not about meats for the belly, it's about unclean men and their doctrines. Just as we know it's not about slaughtered lambs (clean animals) and their blood on a door post, it's about Christ and his shed blood on our building. The very same principle of "types" applies. As the Old Testament law of sacrifice clearly talked about animals, but applied to Christ. So the Old Testament laws of unclean meats applied to people. Just as the Old Testament law saying we had to go to Jerusalem three times a year referred to going to literal Jerusalem, but applied to the purpose (3) of our communion with Christ, our true Holy City. As the law where we couldn't plant two different kinds of seed in a field, or the law of circumcision, and so on and so forth. They are all not done away with, but fulfilled in Christ who they shadowed. They all looked forward to the Coming of Christ. Circumcision is still required, but it is those who are circumcised in Heart by Christ, the fulfillment of that Old Testament everlasting law. These are the true Children of God, not those circumcised in the flesh. So why would we want to put ourselves back under the "BONDAGE" of the law, when Christ has fulfilled or satisfied it, that it does not condemn us? For it is self evident that those who rely on observing the Old Testament law are still under the curse, for it is written:
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Galatians 3:10~"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is everyone that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them"
Clearly, no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous shall live by faith." Not their own, but the faith of Christ in satisfying the law. For any law based on man's feeble faith, is based on man's works of obedience. And by the works of the law, shall no one on earth ever be saved. Except in the faith of Christ, in His completed work.
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Galatians 2:16~   "knowing that a man is not justified by the Works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be Saved!"
By the finished or completed work of Christ we are saved, not the works of our obeying the law. In Him, we have our rest from our works. If we could keep the Old Testament law ourselves, we wouldn't need Christ. But no man could or can. And so Christ went to the cross and redeemed us from the curse of the law. He became a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who hangeth on a tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, and that by faith we might take hold of the promise of the Spirit. If we are truly saved, we are not condemned by the laws that God gave to Israel. Jesus took care of that--it was the whole point of His life, death and resurrection. If His atonement was sufficient (and it was) then the Old Testament law holds no condemnation for us.

Now that being said~is the law of God our rule of life to walk by? YES INDEED, for there's no standard of righteousness higher than God's moral law of righteousness that we see summed up in his ten commandments! Paul said:
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Romans 7:25~"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
With the mind......meaning, his new man that was created after the image of Jesus Christ. 

 

« Last Edit: Mon Apr 24, 2017 - 10:24:31 by RB »

Offline th1b.taylor

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Continual bickering instead of biblical resolution!  It is so simple if you will understand a couple of things.
1. The Bible is the first 39 books that have been misnamed, the Old Testament.  These represent the scrolls, the Bible Jesus and Paul taught from.  That makes the New Testament 27 God inspired/authored Life Application Commentaries.
2.  The scriptures, from "In the Beginning..." through the very last word of Revelation 22 is of one context.

Because of the truth of these two principles of these two truths the prime rule of Hermeneutics I use is also true, No Scripture can be fully understood without the light of all scriptue shinning on it.

And the most beautiful word picture in the scriptures of Jesus is the 10 Commandments!

Offline Jaime

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I agree Bill.

Matthew 22:36-40 (New International Version (NIV)

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

In Jesus' statement he directly quoted from Deuteronomy 6 and Leviticus 19. It's all ONE story.

Also, good post Red!
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 24, 2017 - 10:11:57 by Jaime »

Offline SwordMaster

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SwordMaster, From what I understand, God's Laws do not change. Psalms 119:89 says this: "Forever, O Lord, your word is firmly fixed in the heavens." The divine Laws apply to ALL mankind no matter the place or time period. If they change, as you suggest, then I suppose they would not be very true- faithful, constant, reliable, unfailing, without variation. Psalm 19:7 says this: "The  law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul, The testimony of the Lord is sure..." I would say that since God's Law is perfect there would be no need to change it.


We cannot say that since the Scripture itself tells you right there in black and white, in Heb. 7:12 that they did change.

I think that perhaps you are confusing modality with the actual black and white. In other words, all of the 10 commandments are taken up into the Law of Christ, but have changed in their modality. For example, the sabbath law is no more...we are not sinning by doing things on the sabbath other than just sitting around watching TV all day long. The sabbath, according to Heb. ch's 3-4, is found today in Christ, He is our sabbath rest.

The INTENT behind the law is the same (love), but the modality of the way it has been presented in Scripture has changed, just as the Scriptures state.


Offline th1b.taylor

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I agree Bill.

Matthew 22:36-40 (New International Version (NIV)

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

In Jesus' statement he directly quoted from Deuteronomy 6 and Leviticus 19. It's all ONE story.

Also, good post Red!
It has long been my heart yo help fplks to see this truth,  If Preachers and other teachers would teach these truths, the Church could be reunited beford the LORD returns.

Offline SwordMaster

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I agree Bill.

Matthew 22:36-40 (New International Version (NIV)

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

In Jesus' statement he directly quoted from Deuteronomy 6 and Leviticus 19. It's all ONE story.

Also, good post Red!
It has long been my heart yo help fplks to see this truth,  If Preachers and other teachers would teach these truths, the Church could be reunited beford the LORD returns.

Yep, and this is fulfilled in the Law of Christ, where we are told to love others. Unfortunately, simply everyone doing this will not reunite the splintered factions of the church, because they are splintered through false doctrines. Simply loving everyone around us does not annul false teachings.

Blessings!


Online RB

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Quote from: Red
The law is a schoolmaster to BELIEVERS not unbelievers.

Quote from: SwordMaster
Another blatant contradictory statement that goes directly against what the Word of God clearly teaches. I am no longer amazed at your comments...
Let Paul settle this argument.
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Galatians 3:1-24~"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith."
Here in Galatians chapter three and the following chapter that I will post are the two most important words in Paul's writings that he gives to instruct the children of God's promises concerning the two important doctrines~"Faith and its use and the law of God and its purpose"~two doctrines that many are very confused concerning. With Galatians three along with Romans four, we have two chapters that are so misunderstood, and the truth is, that neither are for a beginners in Christ, but does take a season saint to give them their proper sense, without question. Both of these two chapters were very difficult for me to totally grasp hold of until many years into my walk with God.
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Romans 4:1-25~"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."
In BOTH places the subject of FREE JUSTIFICATION are under consideration. In BOTH places works are rejected as having anything to do with our justification. In BOTH places the SYSTEM OF FAITH is the system which God chose for his people to serve him under and for them to come to the knowledge of the truth of their FREE JUSTIFICATION~In Galatians Paul clearly tells us the purpose of why God gave us his law.

Now, let me come back and glean through each chapter so some can maybe understand these two wonderful chapters in our NT a little better. If one does not understand Romans four and Galatians three, then their understanding of the true gospel is greatly hindered to speak kindly. 
« Last Edit: Thu Apr 27, 2017 - 13:57:05 by RB »

Offline Pkbrother

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The purpose of the Law is to show us our sin
Romans 7:7   i would not have known sin if it were not for the Law.......

If we do not have law to convict us we do not have sin...and we dont confess and therefore we are not saved.......
Look at our society...no laws ...worst morality of any christian nation in generations.....
Judges 21:25
every man did what was right in his own eyes........

All Christians sin after making a committment to Christ.,....
I john 1:8
if we claim to be without sin...we decieve ourselves and the truth is not in us.

The Law in the form that Christ brought has to remain......
The Law of Moses was changed in Christ but not distinguished as we need to be  reminded of our sins
so that we are not decieved.......

Basically the Law of Moses is still in effect in the Middle East........
If you take away this strict law and put Western freedom on them caos will happen....
We tried to impose our freedom on these countries.....iraq, egypt, lybia.....

it is the same with new christians.....if you try to take away strict rules in their life to quickly they cannot function properly.....




Online RB

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The purpose of the Law is to show us our sin
Yes, it does, but only to cause believers to look to Jesus' faith and obedience as our only hope to enter into life eternal. A true understanding of our sins in the light of the law's demands for perfection in thoughts, and deeds from conception to death. Sin in one area, then one becomes guilty of all and thereby falls under its eternal condemnation.
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Galatians 3:24~"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith."
The Law of God was given to be a schoolmaster for the children of God's promises to bring us unto a knowledge of our need of Jesus Christ and HIS PERFECT OBEDIENCE as the only means whereby we are freely justified before God. The law when rightly understood as to WHY God gave it, reveals to us as the ONLY righteousness that can justify sinners, who are UNABLE to do what the law of God demands one to have in order to have a right to eternal life. Now once we come to this knowledge BY FAITH then the law has served its purpose with us IN THIS AREA, and we are no longer under it AS A SCHOOLMASTER.
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Galtians 3:25~"But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster"
Yet we are under it as a perfect rule of life, to walk by for there's no standard of righteousness higher than God's standard of righteousness which his law declares and demands.


« Last Edit: Thu Apr 27, 2017 - 15:23:53 by RB »

Offline Pkbrother

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The caution i would hold out as Gentiles we tend to discard the Law of Moses and even the Judgements in the Law of Christ
taking grace as a license to sin.......

Law is like a police officer...or speed limits....take it away and people run over people and speed......

A Christian who is a believer and maturing should be led by the Spirit and need less Law......

but we all sin as Chrisitans and need the Law to remind us of our sins........

Our pastor said this when He was pulled over for speeding thinking he was under grace and the police officer would give him a pass since the police officer knew he was a pastor......
the officer said this
"pastor you of all people should know why I have to give you a ticket"

If we think the God of the NT is different and He will treat us differently than the Jews in the OT we are sadly mistaken

Offline bel

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SwordMaster, Again, God's Laws do not change. The Word that Jesus spoke was the SAME WORD that was made known to man in the beginning and is the SAME WORD by which we live today.  Any changes that occurred came about through man. For example, the ONLY sacrifice that God ever asked for is that we give our best, willingly, from the heart. Nothing else will do. The ritual practice of animal sacrifices was that of other gods, and some of this is reflected in the law of the Old Testament. This is why we are told in Thessalonians to test everything, even the Bible. This was part of Israel's problem. They worshipped the Scripture, and it became a stumbling block for them.  However, as Jesus said, if they would have known God, they would have been able to tell the difference between what is true and what is false. This goes for us as well.


 
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 28, 2017 - 03:32:45 by bel »

Offline Alan

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SwordMaster, Again, God's Laws do not change. The Word that Jesus spoke was the SAME WORD that was made known to man in the beginning and is the SAME WORD by which we live today.  Any changes that occurred came about through man. For example, the ONLY sacrifice that God ever asked for is that we give our best, willingly, from the heart. Nothing else will do. The ritual practice of animal sacrifices was that of other gods, and some of this is reflected in the law of the Old Testament. This is why we are told in Thessalonians to test everything, even the Bible. This was part of Israel's problem. They worshipped the Scripture, and it became a stumbling block for them.  However, as Jesus said, if they would have known God, they would have been able to tell the difference between what is true and what is false. This goes for us as well.


 


What a bunch of fabricated hogwash! Other gods????
The Lord, our God, did indeed place the sacrificial system into motion with instruction for all Israelite's to follow it to the letter.


When you fully understand Christ's position on the law and how we are to approach it with respect to Jesus being the only way to eternal life, then you'll fully understand the heart of the new man created, over and above the letter of the law.

Offline SwordMaster

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bel said...


Quote
SwordMaster, Again, God's Laws do not change.

bel, not to be too blunt or anything, but you are not giving us anything but your own uneducated opinion. I gave you Scripture that directly tells you that the law did change, and by stating that it didn't, you are calling God a liar because He is the one that says that it did.

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The Word that Jesus spoke was the SAME WORD that was made known to man in the beginning and is the SAME WORD by which we live today.
 

No, it isn't...do you need to ask for forgiveness today if you eat any kind of crustacean or shellfish? No, you don't...therefore the law has changed.

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Any changes that occurred came about through man.


No, no change of law came about by man, it came about by Christ when He fulfilled the old covenant and its law, abrogated them both, and then set up the New Covenant with its new law, the Law of Christ. I really hate to say this to you, but your education on this subject is sorely lacking.

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For example, the ONLY sacrifice that God ever asked for is that we give our best, willingly, from the heart. Nothing else will do.


Wrong again, for God told Moses these instructions for sacrifices...

Leviticus 5:18
He shall bring to the priest a ram without blemish out of the flock, or its equivalent for a guilt offering, and the priest shall make atonement for him for the mistake that he made unintentionally, and he shall be forgiven.

that is only one...there are many more. However, you are correct in one aspect...if the heart is not right before God then the person's sacrificial offering means little.

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The ritual practice of animal sacrifices was that of other gods, and some of this is reflected in the law of the Old Testament.


Negative, it was not a common thing to shed blood only for sacrifices in pagan cultures, when they killed, they didn't kill mercifully to their gods, they did things like put them alive in fire and burned them alive, they would sacrifice their own children in the fire, they would kill virgin women as sacrifices to their gods. You are sorely mistaken here...and any resemblance to blood in God's sacrificial system with other pagan cultures is purely incidental, and was not "borrowed" from any other culture.

Similarities do not make two different systems convergent in any way, except in our minds. The Greek and Roman gods sometimes were said to take on human form...so do you believe, then, that Christ took on human form because they did?

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This is why we are told in Thessalonians to test everything, even the Bible.


Yes, and that is why we are testing your claims and finding them to be in error.

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This was part of Israel's problem. They worshipped the Scripture, and it became a stumbling block for them.
 

that is actually incorrect, too...they came to worship the law and the temple, not Scripture; and that didn't take place until just before, and during, the Intertestamental Period between Malachi and Matthew. The just before part we can see in Jeremiah...

Jeremiah 7:3-12
3 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Amend your ways and your deeds, and I will let you dwell in this place.
4 Do not trust in these deceptive words: 'This is the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD.'
5 "For if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly execute justice one with another,
6 if you do not oppress the sojourner, the fatherless, or the widow, or shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not go after other gods to your own harm,
7 then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave of old to your fathers forever.
8 "Behold, you trust in deceptive words to no avail.
9 Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, make offerings to Baal, and go after other gods that you have not known,
10 and then come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, 'We are delivered!'--only to go on doing all these abominations?
11 Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, I myself have seen it, declares the LORD.
12 Go now to my place that was in Shiloh, where I made my name dwell at first, and see what I did to it because of the evil of my people Israel.

We have people who do this today with grace, so God would say, "Do not trust in these deceptive words, 'It's all by grace, its all by grace, its all by grace!'" They didn't so much actually worship the temple, but they placed their faith in the temple - that because they were the chosen people of God, they could do anything and just come to the temple, sacrifice, do the prescribed things, and walk out of there gold in God's eyes. They were sorely mistaken, and went into exile for that mistake.

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However, as Jesus said, if they would have known God, they would have been able to tell the difference between what is true and what is false. This goes for us as well.

This is true, and that's why we have so many churches pastored by men who can't tell what the truth is because they don't walk with God, they claim to know God, but by their doctrines they demonstrate that they are actually self-deceived liars. Paul, Peter, and Jude talk about those people...
 



Offline bel

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Alan, According to 2Corinthians 3:6 "the letter kills but the Spirit gives life. So if I am understanding you correctly, what you are suggesting is that God instructed Israel in the ways of death.?

SwordMaster, The Word of God came before the Levitical law as John 1:1 says, the Word there in the beginning. Did Abraham, Isaac Jacob etc. have to ask forgiveness for eating shellfish? I don't think so. According to Genesis 9:3 "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things even as the green herbs."

According to Jeremiah, God never instructed Israel on burnt offerings and sacrifices. Jer. 7:22 says this: "For I did not spek to your fathers or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices."

This is also in black and white.
Isaiah 1:11 "What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me? says the Lord. I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed cattle and I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls lambs or goats."
Isaiah 66:3 "He who kills an ox is like one who slays a man. He who sacrifices a lamb is like the one who breaks a dog's neck; he who offers a grain offering is like one who offers swine's blood; He who burns incense is like the one who blesses an idol. As they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations. "
Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire. My ears You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require. "

There are many more verses like these as well. Are you calling God a liar?

The prophets, especially Isaiah and Jeremiah, speak of the works that are pleasing to God. Example Isaiah 58:6-10
« Last Edit: Sat Apr 29, 2017 - 00:50:17 by bel »

Offline th1b.taylor

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Rom 2:14  For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
Rom 2:15  They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
Rom 2:16  on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3  For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4  in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:5  For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6  For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
Rom 8:7  For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
Rom 8:8  Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9  You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Rom 8:10  But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:14  For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Heb 8:13  In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The 613 commandments were all part of the Law.  They are contained within the Pentateuch, and that's why the Pentateuch is called the Law by Jews.    This was the constitution for the nation of Israel.

In Christ there is no more Jew and Gentile but one new man in Christ.

Eph 2:14  For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
Eph 2:15  by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
Eph 2:16  and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

1Ti 1:6  Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion,
1Ti 1:7  desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.
1Ti 1:8  Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
1Ti 1:9  understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers,
1Ti 1:10  the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,
1Ti 1:11  in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.
1Ti 1:12  I thank him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, appointing me to his service,
1Ti 1:13  though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief,
1Ti 1:14  and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15  The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.
1Ti 1:16  But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.
1Ti 1:17  To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

The purpose of the Law was to condemn.   In Christ we have been freed from the Law's condemnation.  Thus Christ rendered it obsolete.   Those who want to continue in the Law today are those who want to use it to condemn others.     

Those who are led by the Holy Spirit do not need to refer to a written list to know in their hearts that murder is wrong.
The purpose of the Law is two fold.  The Law teaches us how Holy any member of the triune God is and it is one of the most beautiful word pictures of the, then coming, Christ in the scriptures and Second point is it is the target we all strive for if we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

Offline SwordMaster

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bel said...

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SwordMaster, The Word of God came before the Levitical law as John 1:1 says, the Word there in the beginning. Did Abraham, Isaac Jacob etc. have to ask forgiveness for eating shellfish? I don't think so. According to Genesis 9:3 "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things even as the green herbs."

You are confusing yourself, bel. In the beginning, where you claim that the Word came into being, God did not give man (or any animal) meat to eat...first off...so you are way out in left field here. God only gave every green plant and fruit for food, for both animals and man. Re-read Genesis 1-3. No animals were eaten until after the flood...T-Rex ate plants until that time, just like the ox...

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According to Jeremiah, God never instructed Israel on burnt offerings and sacrifices. Jer. 7:22 says this: "For I did not spek to your fathers or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices."

bel, you apparently do not understand how to interpret the Scriptures. You have to harmonize them with one another, and when we do that, God certainly did not give them any commands for sacrifices "the day" that He brought them out of Egypt...it wasn't for another 3 months that they made it through the desert to Mt. Sinai, when He DID give them the law along with the sacrifices for atonement.

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This is also in black and white.

Isaiah 1:11 "What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me? says the Lord. I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed cattle and I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls lambs or goats."
Isaiah 66:3 "He who kills an ox is like one who slays a man. He who sacrifices a lamb is like the one who breaks a dog's neck; he who offers a grain offering is like one who offers swine's blood; He who burns incense is like the one who blesses an idol. As they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations. "

Yes...and again...if you learn to read the Scriptures properly, taking their context into light, at these points God is dealing with the people because they would sacrifice to Him and make their atonement, and then go right back out and do the very same wicked things for which they were killing sacrifices for. In other words, they were being hypocrites.

Read Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy again...God did give Israel sacrifices for atonement, and to say that He didn't is to demonstrate a lack of understanding even basic logic. No insult intended.

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Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire. My ears You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require. "

yes, and in context, God did not originally desire burnt offerings, but since the people didn't have a heart after God, He had to institute the rules of atonement and sacrifice...

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There are many more verses like these as well. Are you calling God a liar?

No, bel, but I understand how to correctly interpret the Scriptures, so I know by looking at their contexts that they are not addressing what you think.

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The prophets, especially Isaiah and Jeremiah, speak of the works that are pleasing to God. Example Isaiah 58:6-10

Yes...



Offline th1b.taylor

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Paul tells us what we as gentile Christians need to do
Acts 21 v 25
With regard to the Gentiles who have believed, we have written a letter containing our decision that they should keep themselves from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality."

Oh so "do not murder" does not apply? "Do not steal"?

Christians are taught not to kill or steal, also its all part of loving others as you love yourself.

Where do you suppose "do not kill" came from? Where do you suppose "do not steal" came from? Even "love your neighbor as yourself", where do you suppose this command came from? These are all commandments of the law, open your eyes.
 


A christian shouldnt even need to be told not to do those things. If we love God and love our neighbour we wont kill them or steal from them.
I wish that were true but, it isn't.  As followers of Jesus, the Christ, we call anyone on the Church Roll a Christian, that is not true!  A survey by the people at Barna people asking, only, the people that attend three or more services a week, basic questions such as: Do you believe in the Virgin Birth, do you believe Jesus died to pay for your sins, and Do you believe Jesus is returning to take you to heaven?

As I'm instructed that it was done Double Blind to protect every individual and not even the pastor knew who answered what?  I suggest that some of them that answered affirmatively, lied.  That is Human nature for a man or woman that is not in Jesus.

The result is distressing because it is unthinkable that it is so, low.  Less than 10% of the 10 to 15% that attend 3 or more services a week translates out to about, maybe, 2% and I am doing my best to be generous.  If you are mathematically inclined there is no need to tell me that I did my math wrong, I know that but I'm trying to be generous.

Offline Pkbrother

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Everything in the bible is written for our learning and is inspi re d or written by the hands of God
Especially the NT

Men of old were divinely inspired by God's hand

The word of God is forever fixed in the heavens
Psalms

The bereans were more noble than those in thessolonica because they searched the acrptureea daily to see if these things wee true
Acts 17


Offline bel

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SwordMaster, I tend to be a bit more realistic. Take a look at the creation because what may be known of God is clearly seen as Romans says. Nature takes care of itself. That's the way God made it. If there were no carnivores or scavengers, I suppose there would be a bunch of dead carcasses lying around all over the place. I would say that the unclean animals that the unclean animals that Noah took on the ark were none other than meat eating carnivores. Man was given dominion over the earth and "every creeping thing that creeps on the earth" as it says in Genesis. Abel was raising sheep for a reason. My guess would be that yes, he probably had lamb for Thanksgiving dinner.

As for the Word, as I mentioned before, according to John 1:1, it was there in the beginning. The creation does not operate randomly. By this I mean that the universe and everything in it is formed and ordered by Laws which are unseen. These are the Laws of God by which all thing operate, each according to it's kind. What you are suggesting is that God created man with no Law. If this is the case, then we would be the exception to everything that is made. I don't think so. Man was designed to live by the Laws of love, honesty, truth, treating each other as we would want to be treated ( the Law of reciprocation) etc. etc. If we disobey, we die, plain and simple. The law of ritual animal sacrifices was man's invention. Do you think that God wants us to senselessly slaughter animals for no other reason but to pour it's blood all over the temple for the forgiveness of sin. No. Just try doing the right thing. I believe that works for God, as He says many times in the Old Testament, "Return to Me and I will return to you." I think you are trying to harmonize two things that simply do not go together.   

Offline SwordMaster

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bel said...


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SwordMaster, I tend to be a bit more realistic.


So far, your version of being "realistic" is directly contradicting the Word of God. If that is what you call realistic, then we have some problems.

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Take a look at the creation because what may be known of God is clearly seen as Romans says. Nature takes care of itself. That's the way God made it. If there were no carnivores or scavengers, I suppose there would be a bunch of dead carcasses lying around all over the place. I would say that the unclean animals that the unclean animals that Noah took on the ark were none other than meat eating carnivores.


IF we were talking about a evolutionistic world, then you may have been correct, but we are not. Again, read Genesis again and pay particular attention to the verses that deal with food sources. No animal ate another until after the flood, and man was not given animals for food until after the flood. Therefore, there were no carnivores upon the Ark...they did not adapt into carnivores until after God made it so.

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Man was given dominion over the earth and "every creeping thing that creeps on the earth" as it says in Genesis. Abel was raising sheep for a reason. My guess would be that yes, he probably had lamb for Thanksgiving dinner.


Your guess would be incorrect...what else do sheep bring to the "table" so-to-speak? They produce wool to be made into clothing...THAT would be the more realistic and logical reason, given what the Word of God tells us.

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As for the Word, as I mentioned before, according to John 1:1, it was there in the beginning.

Yes, but you incorrectly assume that the Word was law, and it was not. You seem to be failing to understand that John was specifically utilizing a word picture for Christ. He did so in the first verses of his gospel because he was making a covenantal statement. In ANE covenants, the suzerain king (the one offering the covenant of peace to another king, the vassal) made his covenant and in the presentation of that covenant to the lesser king, it was addressed as the "word" of the Great King. John was directly referencing Isa. 42:6 and 49:8 which tells us prophetically that the Messiah would be the living New Covenant of God to man. In that sense, Christ is the Word of God...and no other. In other words, if Christ was not the Word of the covenant of God, then John would have had no reason to give the word picture of Christ as the Word.

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The creation does not operate randomly. By this I mean that the universe and everything in it is formed and ordered by Laws which are unseen. These are the Laws of God by which all thing operate, each according to it's kind.

My friend, you are not making the distinction between natural laws of nature, which God did place into being, and the LAW of God by which we are to live; and in failing to make that distinction you are perverting your theology.

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What you are suggesting is that God created man with no Law.


Negative, I made no such suggestion. If that is what you see in what I have given you, then you are misinterpreting what I have stated. Also, in speaking of the laws of nature, you cannot say that man was created without law...because there are many laws of nature that keep you breathing and your blood pumping...in that you are confused.

Secondly, man was created without Law TOWARDS God...but then God gave him law, only one commandment - "this tree is Mine, you can eat from any of the others that you want to, but don't touch My tree. The day that you do, you will die spiritually because you disobeyed Me." Therefore, on both counts, you are in error in making the assumption that I suggest no law at creation.

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Man was designed to live by the Laws of love, honesty, truth, treating each other as we would want to be treated ( the Law of reciprocation) etc. etc.


You are quite correct here, but your idea of when it was given to man is quite incorrect. This law was not given until the 10 commandments. Until that time, God made His rules and list of acceptable behavior to men and they either chose to walk with Him, or they chose to walk in the futility of their own minds. No where is there a law given to men from God between "Don't eat of this tree" and the giving of the Commandments...search the Scriptures in between those times and you will find that there is no such handing down of law...there isn't even the HINT of speculation given for law. Paul says...

Romans 5:13
for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

The Law was not given at the beginning of the world, because even Paul emphasizes that the world existed BEFORE the law was given.

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If we disobey, we die, plain and simple. The law of ritual animal sacrifices was man's invention.


Again...you are calling God a liar, because He is the one that gave Moses the instructions on not only how to perform the sacrifices, but also how to cut them up, collect the blood, etc... Your "reality" on this point is a direct contradiction to the Scriptures. No matter what you *think,* the Scriptures are authoritative and demonstrate that your thoughts on this matter are in error...

Leviticus 1:1-9 The LORD called Moses and spoke to him from the tent of meeting, saying, 2 "Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When any one of you brings an offering to the LORD, you shall bring your offering of livestock from the herd or from the flock. 3 "If his offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he shall offer a male without blemish. He shall bring it to the entrance of the tent of meeting, that he may be accepted before the LORD. 4 He shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him. 5 Then he shall kill the bull before the LORD, and Aaron's sons the priests shall bring the blood and throw the blood against the sides of the altar that is at the entrance of the tent of meeting. 6 Then he shall flay the burnt offering and cut it into pieces, 7 and the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire on the altar and arrange wood on the fire. 8 And Aaron's sons the priests shall arrange the pieces, the head, and the fat, on the wood that is on the fire on the altar; 9 but its entrails and its legs he shall wash with water. And the priest shall burn all of it on the altar, as a burnt offering, a food offering with a pleasing aroma to the LORD.

Now then, "the Lord" said...are you still going to call Him a liar? Moses didn't start the practice of sacrifices for atonement, GOD DID!!!

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Do you think that God wants us to senselessly slaughter animals for no other reason but to pour it's blood all over the temple for the forgiveness of sin. No.

Again...right above in black and white...the answer to your question is yes...not "no." Did He want this in His heart? I would say no, He probably prefers us to walk in obedience to Him from the beginning. I say probably because if it wasn't for sin entering the world, then we could not be tested and tried and our faith made strong and we come to completely trust and rely upon Him.

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Just try doing the right thing. I believe that works for God, as He says many times in the Old Testament, "Return to Me and I will return to you." I think you are trying to harmonize two things that simply do not go together.


That is where your understanding fails, too. There is not one thing in the Scriptures, anywhere, that is out of harmony with any other. Why is that, bel? It's because there is only one author of the Scriptures - God - and He does not contradict Himself, anywhere, ever.

that is why when we test your theory here against the Scriptures, as we are told to do, we find that it does not come from the Spirit of God, but rather either from your own mind or from listening to seducing spirits that are not from God. Personally, I think in this case, that it is the first one.

No insult intended, brother.

Blessings!



Offline bel

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Swordmaster, What do you think an unclean animal is? It's not one which doesn't bathe. If this is the case, all animals would unclean. Unclean animals are carnivores which certainly existed before the flood as Noah took them on the ark. Of course God's Law( the Word according to Jesus) existed before Moses.

1.It was wrong to murder. Ex Cain
2. It was wrong to steal. Ex. Joseph and the silver cup, Laban and Jacob
3. It was wrong to lie and cheat. Ex. Esau and Jacob
4. It was wrong to commit adultery. Ex. The incident between Pharaoh, Abraham and Sarah, Joseph and Potiphar's wife
5. Slavery was wrong. Ex. God's plagues on Egypt

Read the Old Testament. The Law was there, and people were accountable to it as there were consequences for breaking it.



Offline Alan

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Swordmaster, What do you think an unclean animal is? It's not one which doesn't bathe. If this is the case, all animals would unclean. Unclean animals are carnivores which certainly existed before the flood as Noah took them on the ark. Of course God's Law( the Word according to Jesus) existed before Moses.

1.It was wrong to murder. Ex Cain
2. It was wrong to steal. Ex. Joseph and the silver cup, Laban and Jacob
3. It was wrong to lie and cheat. Ex. Esau and Jacob
4. It was wrong to commit adultery. Ex. The incident between Pharaoh, Abraham and Sarah, Joseph and Potiphar's wife
5. Slavery was wrong. Ex. God's plagues on Egypt

Read the Old Testament. The Law was there, and people were accountable to it as there were consequences for breaking it.


Read your bible  ::idea::

Online 4WD

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You are confusing yourself, bel. In the beginning, where you claim that the Word came into being, God did not give man (or any animal) meat to eat...first off...so you are way out in left field here. God only gave every green plant and fruit for food, for both animals and man. Re-read Genesis 1-3. No animals were eaten until after the flood...T-Rex ate plants until that time, just like the ox...
That is funny; something you are not known for.  What do you think Abel was doing with all those sheep he raised?  Maybe, if you are correct and he was eating the food that Cain was growing, Cain felt he had good reason to get rid of Abel.

Offline SwordMaster

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You are confusing yourself, bel. In the beginning, where you claim that the Word came into being, God did not give man (or any animal) meat to eat...first off...so you are way out in left field here. God only gave every green plant and fruit for food, for both animals and man. Re-read Genesis 1-3. No animals were eaten until after the flood...T-Rex ate plants until that time, just like the ox...

That is funny; something you are not known for.  What do you think Abel was doing with all those sheep he raised?  Maybe, if you are correct and he was eating the food that Cain was growing, Cain felt he had good reason to get rid of Abel.

I don't see how you think that's funny...unless you are reading between the lines of Scripture what it neither states or insinuates...

Genesis 1:29
And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food.

Genesis 9:3
Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.

It was not until 8 chapters later...about a thousand years or so...that God gave man "every" animal for food (that includes both 'clean' and 'unclean' by the Law's standard later).


Offline dan p

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 Hi and 2 Cor 3:13-15 says why the Law is being set aside and Paul says in verse 15 that  " until " this day a VAIL LIES upon their heart  and Paul in Paul earthly ministry !!

 Also scheck Luke 13:6-9 !!

 dan p

Offline Alan

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That is funny; something you are not known for.  What do you think Abel was doing with all those sheep he raised?  Maybe, if you are correct and he was eating the food that Cain was growing, Cain felt he had good reason to get rid of Abel.


I don't see how you think that's funny...unless you are reading between the lines of Scripture what it neither states or insinuates...

Genesis 1:29
And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food.

Genesis 9:3
Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.

It was not until 8 chapters later...about a thousand years or so...that God gave man "every" animal for food (that includes both 'clean' and 'unclean' by the Law's standard later).


I wonder why after 1000 years of human life on this planet it was suddenly deemed necessary for us to consume meat? had we been craving it for that entire millennia and then God decided to treat us?



Offline dan p

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  Hi and 2 Cor 3:13-16 says that the Law of Moses  has been  ABOLISHED   as there is a VAIL  upon their hearts  and Paul  UNTIL  this day at the  reading  of the  Old  Covenant the same covering   remains , not being  uncovered  >

 dan p

 

     
anything