Author Topic: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"  (Read 8013 times)

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Offline Ladonia

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #35 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 12:53:21 »
The Bible should be our only authority in the end.

That contradicts what the Bible says.
 

Gods word is our authority, and if anything is not in agreement with that, then we can discard it.

So, when St Paul says it's shameful for a man to have long hair, that means God is against men having long hair? 
Can I then assume that you are also against men having long hair and that it is some sort of biblical prohibition?

Offline Helen

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #36 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 12:58:16 »
"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."  Acts 17:11

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God ay be thoroughly equipped for every good work."  2 Timothy 3:16-17

"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God."  Matthew 22:29

Further references to the fact that the Scriptures were used to validate prophecy and what was taught may be found in
Matthew 21:42, Matthew 26:54,  Mark 12:24, Mark 14:49,  Luke 4:21, Luke 24:27, 32, 45, John 2:22, John 5:39, John 7:38, John 7:42, John 10:35, John 13:18, John 17:12, John 19:24, 28, 36, 37,  John 20:9, Acts 1:16, Acts 8:32, 35, Acts 17:2, Acts 18:24-25, Acts 18:28, Romans 1:2, Romans 4:3, Romans 9:17, Romans 10:11,  Romans 11:2, Romans 15:4, 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, Galatians 3:8, 16, 22, Galatians 4:30, 1 Timothy 4:13, 1 Timothy 5:18, 2 Timothy 3:15, James 2:8, 23, James 4:5-6, 1 Peter 2:6, 2 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:16.

In other words, all teaching should be checked for biblical accuracy.  As God's Word, the Bible is our AUTHORITY -- whether or not anyone likes the use of that word.  It is the plumb line for truth. 

Offline winsome

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #37 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 12:58:55 »

The Word is what we weigh the claims and teachings of others against.  If it doesn't line up with scripture, it is a lie.



Gods word is our authority, and if anything is not in agreement with that, then we can discard it.


Neither of those statements are about authority
 

This explains it well

http://www.biblesupersearch.com/article.php?id=212


I think this explains it well.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/catholic-forum/authority-whoever-listens-to-you/

Offline winsome

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #38 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 13:01:32 »
"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."  Acts 17:11

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God ay be thoroughly equipped for every good work."  2 Timothy 3:16-17

"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God."  Matthew 22:29

Further references to the fact that the Scriptures were used to validate prophecy and what was taught may be found in
Matthew 21:42, Matthew 26:54,  Mark 12:24, Mark 14:49,  Luke 4:21, Luke 24:27, 32, 45, John 2:22, John 5:39, John 7:38, John 7:42, John 10:35, John 13:18, John 17:12, John 19:24, 28, 36, 37,  John 20:9, Acts 1:16, Acts 8:32, 35, Acts 17:2, Acts 18:24-25, Acts 18:28, Romans 1:2, Romans 4:3, Romans 9:17, Romans 10:11,  Romans 11:2, Romans 15:4, 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, Galatians 3:8, 16, 22, Galatians 4:30, 1 Timothy 4:13, 1 Timothy 5:18, 2 Timothy 3:15, James 2:8, 23, James 4:5-6, 1 Peter 2:6, 2 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:16.

In other words, all teaching should be checked for biblical accuracy.  As God's Word, the Bible is our AUTHORITY -- whether or not anyone likes the use of that word.  It is the plumb line for truth. 

Checked for biblical accuracy yes. I agree with all those scriptures.

But that does not make the Bible our authority. It is authoritative.

Offline Helen

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #39 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 13:11:39 »
Play with words all you want.  If something disagrees with the Bible, it is wrong.

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #39 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 13:11:39 »



Offline winsome

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #40 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 13:16:54 »
Play with words all you want.  If something disagrees with the Bible, it is wrong.

I'm not playing with words. As an English teacher you should understand the difference between authjority and authoritative.

But I agree if something contradicts the Bible then it is wrong.

We don't all agree exactly what scripture means in some cases and therefore whether a belief contradicts scripture. But that is another issue.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #41 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 13:34:13 »
The Bible should be our only authority in the end.

That contradicts what the Bible says.

Nope.Not even close.

The Word is what we weigh the claims and teachings of others against.  If it doesn't line up with scripture, it is a lie.

Your claims concerning the so-called "authority of scripture" don't line up with scripture. 

Proof?

Offline MeMyself

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #42 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 13:34:36 »
"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."  Acts 17:11

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God ay be thoroughly equipped for every good work."  2 Timothy 3:16-17

"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God."  Matthew 22:29

Further references to the fact that the Scriptures were used to validate prophecy and what was taught may be found in
Matthew 21:42, Matthew 26:54,  Mark 12:24, Mark 14:49,  Luke 4:21, Luke 24:27, 32, 45, John 2:22, John 5:39, John 7:38, John 7:42, John 10:35, John 13:18, John 17:12, John 19:24, 28, 36, 37,  John 20:9, Acts 1:16, Acts 8:32, 35, Acts 17:2, Acts 18:24-25, Acts 18:28, Romans 1:2, Romans 4:3, Romans 9:17, Romans 10:11,  Romans 11:2, Romans 15:4, 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, Galatians 3:8, 16, 22, Galatians 4:30, 1 Timothy 4:13, 1 Timothy 5:18, 2 Timothy 3:15, James 2:8, 23, James 4:5-6, 1 Peter 2:6, 2 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:16.

In other words, all teaching should be checked for biblical accuracy.  As God's Word, the Bible is our AUTHORITY -- whether or not anyone likes the use of that word.  It is the plumb line for truth. 

AMEN!

Offline chosenone

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #43 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 13:35:53 »
Play with words all you want.  If something disagrees with the Bible, it is wrong.

I'm not playing with words. As an English teacher you should understand the difference between authjority and authoritative.

But I agree if something contradicts the Bible then it is wrong.

We don't all agree exactly what scripture means in some cases and therefore whether a belief contradicts scripture. But that is another issue.


 I think we all know what is meant by the Bible being our authority.

Offline Catholica

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #44 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 13:45:28 »
The Bible should be our only authority in the end.

That contradicts what the Bible says.

Nope.Not even close.

The Word is what we weigh the claims and teachings of others against.  If it doesn't line up with scripture, it is a lie.

Your claims concerning the so-called "authority of scripture" don't line up with scripture. 

Proof?

There is more than one authority that God calls us to submit to.  One example (among many):

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

In addition, if you submit to this verse in Hebrews, you acknowledge the authority of God working through a _person_, that is, the author of Hebrews.

In acknowledging Hebrews as scripture, you are submitting to the authority of God working through another _person_ or group of persons, which have proclaimed by God's authority that Hebrews is inspired.

2 Thess. 2:15
So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Oral teachings from the apostles held as much weight as letters written by them.  Full authority was *never* _only_ in the scriptures, nor could it be, since authority is a quality that only living beings can possess.

Matthew 18:18
"Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

That is authority.


Offline Catholica

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #45 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 13:46:26 »
Play with words all you want.  If something disagrees with the Bible, it is wrong.

I'm not playing with words. As an English teacher you should understand the difference between authjority and authoritative.

But I agree if something contradicts the Bible then it is wrong.

We don't all agree exactly what scripture means in some cases and therefore whether a belief contradicts scripture. But that is another issue.


 I think we all know what is meant by the Bible being our authority.

I think we do.  But it is abusing the word "authority" to mean something that it doesn't.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #46 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 13:54:24 »
The Bible should be our only authority in the end.

That contradicts what the Bible says.

Nope.Not even close.

The Word is what we weigh the claims and teachings of others against.  If it doesn't line up with scripture, it is a lie.

Your claims concerning the so-called "authority of scripture" don't line up with scripture. 

Proof?

There is more than one authority that God calls us to submit to.  One example (among many):

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

In addition, if you submit to this verse in Hebrews, you acknowledge the authority of God working through a _person_, that is, the author of Hebrews.

In acknowledging Hebrews as scripture, you are submitting to the authority of God working through another _person_ or group of persons, which have proclaimed by God's authority that Hebrews is inspired.

2 Thess. 2:15
So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Oral teachings from the apostles held as much weight as letters written by them.  Full authority was *never* _only_ in the scriptures, nor could it be, since authority is a quality that only living beings can possess.

Matthew 18:18
"Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

That is authority.



And what is it that holds those in positions of authority over us to account?  The Scripture! It *is* the authority by which we measure what we are being lead in!  If those who put themselves up as the standard and we are to submit to them, they SURELY should be submitting to the Word of God and if they are not?  They are in the wrong, wolves in sheep clothing and we should NOT follow them!

Offline Catholica

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #47 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 14:07:40 »
The Bible should be our only authority in the end.

That contradicts what the Bible says.

Nope.Not even close.

The Word is what we weigh the claims and teachings of others against.  If it doesn't line up with scripture, it is a lie.

Your claims concerning the so-called "authority of scripture" don't line up with scripture. 

Proof?

There is more than one authority that God calls us to submit to.  One example (among many):

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

In addition, if you submit to this verse in Hebrews, you acknowledge the authority of God working through a _person_, that is, the author of Hebrews.

In acknowledging Hebrews as scripture, you are submitting to the authority of God working through another _person_ or group of persons, which have proclaimed by God's authority that Hebrews is inspired.

2 Thess. 2:15
So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Oral teachings from the apostles held as much weight as letters written by them.  Full authority was *never* _only_ in the scriptures, nor could it be, since authority is a quality that only living beings can possess.

Matthew 18:18
"Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

That is authority.



And what is it that holds those in positions of authority over us to account?  The Scripture! It *is* the authority by which we measure what we are being lead in!  If those who put themselves up as the standard and we are to submit to them, they SURELY should be submitting to the Word of God and if they are not?  They are in the wrong, wolves in sheep clothing and we should NOT follow them!

By their fruits you will know them, not by whether or not they conform to our interpretation of the scriptures.  By your method you make yourself the authority, and hold others up to judgment based on your interpretation of scripture.

The one who holds those in positions of authority to account is God, not us, not our interpretation of the scriptures.  Hebrews 13:17 says "as those who will have to give an account".  The implied "person" that they will give an account to is God.

« Last Edit: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 14:12:33 by Catholica »

Offline chosenone

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #48 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 14:19:17 »
The Bible should be our only authority in the end.

That contradicts what the Bible says.

Nope.Not even close.

The Word is what we weigh the claims and teachings of others against.  If it doesn't line up with scripture, it is a lie.

Your claims concerning the so-called "authority of scripture" don't line up with scripture. 

Proof?

There is more than one authority that God calls us to submit to.  One example (among many):

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

In addition, if you submit to this verse in Hebrews, you acknowledge the authority of God working through a _person_, that is, the author of Hebrews.

In acknowledging Hebrews as scripture, you are submitting to the authority of God working through another _person_ or group of persons, which have proclaimed by God's authority that Hebrews is inspired.

2 Thess. 2:15
So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Oral teachings from the apostles held as much weight as letters written by them.  Full authority was *never* _only_ in the scriptures, nor could it be, since authority is a quality that only living beings can possess.

Matthew 18:18
"Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

That is authority.



And what is it that holds those in positions of authority over us to account?  The Scripture! It *is* the authority by which we measure what we are being lead in!  If those who put themselves up as the standard and we are to submit to them, they SURELY should be submitting to the Word of God and if they are not?  They are in the wrong, wolves in sheep clothing and we should NOT follow them!

By their fruits you will know them, not by whether or not they conform to our interpretation of the scriptures.  By your method you make yourself the authority, and hold others up to judgment based on your interpretation of scripture.

The one who holds those in positions of authority to account is God, not us, not our interpretation of the scriptures.  Hebrews 13:17 says "as those who will have to give an account".  The implied "person" that they will give an account to is God.




 We should never blindly follow any man if he teaches or believes things that are merely man made doctrines, and not even Biblical.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #49 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 14:31:00 »
The Bible should be our only authority in the end.

That contradicts what the Bible says.

Nope.Not even close.

The Word is what we weigh the claims and teachings of others against.  If it doesn't line up with scripture, it is a lie.

Your claims concerning the so-called "authority of scripture" don't line up with scripture. 

Proof?

There is more than one authority that God calls us to submit to.  One example (among many):

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

In addition, if you submit to this verse in Hebrews, you acknowledge the authority of God working through a _person_, that is, the author of Hebrews.

In acknowledging Hebrews as scripture, you are submitting to the authority of God working through another _person_ or group of persons, which have proclaimed by God's authority that Hebrews is inspired.

2 Thess. 2:15
So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Oral teachings from the apostles held as much weight as letters written by them.  Full authority was *never* _only_ in the scriptures, nor could it be, since authority is a quality that only living beings can possess.

Matthew 18:18
"Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

That is authority.



And what is it that holds those in positions of authority over us to account?  The Scripture! It *is* the authority by which we measure what we are being lead in!  If those who put themselves up as the standard and we are to submit to them, they SURELY should be submitting to the Word of God and if they are not?  They are in the wrong, wolves in sheep clothing and we should NOT follow them!

By their fruits you will know them, not by whether or not they conform to our interpretation of the scriptures.  By your method you make yourself the authority, and hold others up to judgment based on your interpretation of scripture.

That accusation is simply NOT true! 

A leader who is truly called by God, would have fruit that lines UP with scripture anyway!

The one who holds those in positions of authority to account is God, not us, not our interpretation of the scriptures.  Hebrews 13:17 says "as those who will have to give an account".  The implied "person" that they will give an account to is God.

How do you know if your leader is in error?  You just blindly follow them no matter what they spew from the pulpit? Jim Jones got lots of folks to drink the kool-aid that way.

They SHOULD give an account for what they teach!  They are not above the congregation and they are given a very serious warning about being a teacher.  Parishioners in every body I have ever attended are encouraged to "fact check" what is being preached to see that it lines up with the Word!  Why anyone would be threatened by this is a HUGE red flag IMO! 

Offline Catholica

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #50 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 14:40:45 »
The Bible should be our only authority in the end.

That contradicts what the Bible says.

Nope.Not even close.

The Word is what we weigh the claims and teachings of others against.  If it doesn't line up with scripture, it is a lie.

Your claims concerning the so-called "authority of scripture" don't line up with scripture. 

Proof?

There is more than one authority that God calls us to submit to.  One example (among many):

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

In addition, if you submit to this verse in Hebrews, you acknowledge the authority of God working through a _person_, that is, the author of Hebrews.

In acknowledging Hebrews as scripture, you are submitting to the authority of God working through another _person_ or group of persons, which have proclaimed by God's authority that Hebrews is inspired.

2 Thess. 2:15
So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Oral teachings from the apostles held as much weight as letters written by them.  Full authority was *never* _only_ in the scriptures, nor could it be, since authority is a quality that only living beings can possess.

Matthew 18:18
"Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

That is authority.



And what is it that holds those in positions of authority over us to account?  The Scripture! It *is* the authority by which we measure what we are being lead in!  If those who put themselves up as the standard and we are to submit to them, they SURELY should be submitting to the Word of God and if they are not?  They are in the wrong, wolves in sheep clothing and we should NOT follow them!

By their fruits you will know them, not by whether or not they conform to our interpretation of the scriptures.  By your method you make yourself the authority, and hold others up to judgment based on your interpretation of scripture.

That accusation is simply NOT true!

Yes it is.  That is what Protestantism has become these days.

A leader who is truly called by God, would have fruit that lines UP with scripture anyway!

The fruits of those who follow the teachings of the Catholic Church are the epitome of what scripture promises.

The one who holds those in positions of authority to account is God, not us, not our interpretation of the scriptures.  Hebrews 13:17 says "as those who will have to give an account".  The implied "person" that they will give an account to is God.

How do you know if your leader is in error?  You just blindly follow them no matter what they spew from the pulpit? Jim Jones got lots of folks to drink the kool-aid that way.

We have a deposit of faith that goes back 2000 years.  We have witnesses of countless teachers of that same faith.  We have established dogma.  Our leaders are held accountable to that Gospel which was taught before.  That is, what they teach must line up with scripture AND tradition AND the Magisterium.

But that is not authority.  Authority has nothing to do with whether some teaching is true.  Authority is about the right to make decisions.

They SHOULD give an account for what they teach!  They are not above the congregation and they are given a very serious warning about being a teacher.  Parishioners in every body I have ever attended are encouraged to "fact check" what is being preached to see that it lines up with the Word!  Why anyone would be threatened by this is a HUGE red flag IMO! 

And tell me, what happens when a parishioner in the congregation believes that the leader's teaching doesn't line up with scripture?  Who decides who is right?  It is fairly easy for different people to have different opinions on what scripture says.  What happens when that is the case?

And what if what they are talking about, scripture has nothing to say?

Offline MeMyself

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #51 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 14:55:57 »
Yes it is.  That is what Protestantism has become these days.

Well, I guess its a good thing you aren't one of *those*! 


The fruits of those who follow the teachings of the Catholic Church are the epitome of what scripture promises.

Oh.my.GOSH!  Are you saying the teachings of the Catholic church are infallible, but SCRIPTURE, the WORD of God isn't?

Those that follow the Word of God will display the fruit of the Spirit! It is not exclusive to those that follow the teachings of the Catholic church.

And tell me, what happens when a parishioner in the congregation believes that the leader's teaching doesn't line up with scripture? 

They have the freedom to GO to their pastor and question them.  There is dialog, there is conversation, that is what happens in relationships.

Who decides who is right?

Ultimately people must live their convictions.  If no agreement can be met, there is freedom to leave and find a body that is a better fit.

  It is fairly easy for different people to have different opinions on what scripture says.  What happens when that is the case?

They wish each other well, and move on. 

And what if what they are talking about, scripture has nothing to say?

That falls under showing grace.  A difference of preference.

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #52 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 15:01:02 »
But that is not authority.  Authority has nothing to do with whether some teaching is true.  Authority is about the right to make decisions.

That is not the only way the word authority is used.  To wish to so narrowly define and use it is strange to me.

Offline winsome

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #53 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 15:53:13 »
But that is not authority.  Authority has nothing to do with whether some teaching is true.  Authority is about the right to make decisions.


That is not the only way the word authority is used.  To wish to so narrowly define and use it is strange to me.


See http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/catholic-forum/authority-whoever-listens-to-you/ for my understanding of authority

Offline Catholica

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #54 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 16:08:45 »
And what is it that holds those in positions of authority over us to account?  The Scripture! It *is* the authority by which we measure what we are being lead in!  If those who put themselves up as the standard and we are to submit to them, they SURELY should be submitting to the Word of God and if they are not?  They are in the wrong, wolves in sheep clothing and we should NOT follow them!

By their fruits you will know them, not by whether or not they conform to our interpretation of the scriptures.  By your method you make yourself the authority, and hold others up to judgment based on your interpretation of scripture.

That accusation is simply NOT true!

Yes it is.  That is what Protestantism has become these days.

Well, I guess its a good thing you aren't one of *those*!

I am thankful that I am Catholic, not thankful that I am not Protestant.  But you miss the point, completely.  But you then go on to prove that what was "not true" is in fact true.

Quote
A leader who is truly called by God, would have fruit that lines UP with scripture anyway!
The fruits of those who follow the teachings of the Catholic Church are the epitome of what scripture promises.

Oh.my.GOSH!  Are you saying the teachings of the Catholic church are infallible, but SCRIPTURE, the WORD of God isn't?

Those that follow the Word of God will display the fruit of the Spirit! It is not exclusive to those that follow the teachings of the Catholic church.

I'm not saying that at all.  You said that true teaching will produce good fruits.  And then I said that those who follow the teachings of the Catholic Church provide the best fruits.  I said nothing about scripture not being "infallible" (I think you mean "inerrant", as "infallibility" is another attribute of a living being, not of a document).  I never said that it was exclusive to those who follow the teachings of the Catholic Church either.

Where do you come up with this stuff?  What you wrote was pure calumny, a sin.

And tell me, what happens when a parishioner in the congregation believes that the leader's teaching doesn't line up with scripture? 

They have the freedom to GO to their pastor and question them.  There is dialog, there is conversation, that is what happens in relationships.

Why, so do we...

Who decides who is right?

Ultimately people must live their convictions.  If no agreement can be met, there is freedom to leave and find a body that is a better fit.

a.k.a. People decide for themselves based on their own interpretation of scripture.

  It is fairly easy for different people to have different opinions on what scripture says.  What happens when that is the case?

They wish each other well, and move on. 

Or start their own congregation.  They are their own authority.

And what if what they are talking about, scripture has nothing to say?

That falls under showing grace.  A difference of preference.

That is not what God intended.  Whether abortion is wrong?  A matter of preference...?  Whether same-sex marriage is wrong?  A matter of preference...?  (Before you bother responding, yes the Bible condemns relations with someone of same-sex but it doesn't explicitly condemn marriage to someone of the same sex, at least, not how most people commonly interpret the verses on marriage).

God did not leave us orphans.  He left us, rather, with a living Church, to which He gave his authority.  That is one of His jobs as a God who loves us, to help us know moral truth with certitude so that we can avoid sin and so to have life.

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #55 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 16:24:06 »
Quote
God did not leave us orphans.  He left us, rather, with a living Church, to which He gave his authority.  That is one of His jobs as a God who loves us, to help us know moral truth with certitude so that we can avoid sin and so to have life.

Let's look at what the Bible actually says:

"If you love me, you will obey what I command.  Ad I will ask the Father and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever -- the Spirit of truth.  The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him.  But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.  I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you."

In other words, the Lord did not leave the RCC, He gave us Himself through His Holy Spirit.  Quite a difference.

Is avoiding sin having life?  That, again, is not what the Bible says:  "Father, the time has come.  Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.  For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.  Now this is eternal life:  that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Yes, we need to avoid sin.  But that is not what gives us eternal life.  Eternal life is a gift from Jesus Christ to those who belong to Him. 

Catholic doctrine simply does not agree with Bible, I guess.


Offline Catholica

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #56 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 16:39:05 »
Quote
God did not leave us orphans.  He left us, rather, with a living Church, to which He gave his authority.  That is one of His jobs as a God who loves us, to help us know moral truth with certitude so that we can avoid sin and so to have life.

Let's look at what the Bible actually says:

"If you love me, you will obey what I command.  Ad I will ask the Father and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever -- the Spirit of truth.  The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him.  But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.  I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you."

In other words, the Lord did not leave the RCC, He gave us Himself through His Holy Spirit.  Quite a difference.

He gave us His Holy Spirit through the Catholic Church which he established in the apostles, who then ordained others, who ordained others, etc.

Is avoiding sin having life?  That, again, is not what the Bible says:  "Father, the time has come.  Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.  For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.  Now this is eternal life:  that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Yes, we need to avoid sin.  But that is not what gives us eternal life.  Eternal life is a gift from Jesus Christ to those who belong to Him. 

I didn't say that avoiding sin gives us eternal life.  But sinning detracts from the life that God wants to give to us whether we realize our sin or not.

John 10:10
A thief comes only to steal and slaughter and destroy; I came so that they might have life and have it more abundantly.

John 20:21-23
21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”  And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Catholic doctrine simply does not agree with Bible, I guess.

Rather, your misunderstanding of my post and misrepresentation of Catholic doctrine do not agree with the Bible.  But that is not Catholic doctrine.  Catholic doctrine agree with the Bible, 100%.  After all, the Bible is a Catholic book.



Your entire post is a sidetrack from the valid points which I gave that actually followed the topic.  Why change the subject?
« Last Edit: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 16:46:01 by Catholica »

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #57 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 16:49:39 »
And what is it that holds those in positions of authority over us to account?  The Scripture! It *is* the authority by which we measure what we are being lead in!  If those who put themselves up as the standard and we are to submit to them, they SURELY should be submitting to the Word of God and if they are not?  They are in the wrong, wolves in sheep clothing and we should NOT follow them!

By their fruits you will know them, not by whether or not they conform to our interpretation of the scriptures.  By your method you make yourself the authority, and hold others up to judgment based on your interpretation of scripture.

That accusation is simply NOT true!

Yes it is.  That is what Protestantism has become these days.

Well, I guess its a good thing you aren't one of *those*!

I am thankful that I am Catholic, not thankful that I am not Protestant.  But you miss the point, completely.  But you then go on to prove that what was "not true" is in fact true.

Quote
A leader who is truly called by God, would have fruit that lines UP with scripture anyway!
The fruits of those who follow the teachings of the Catholic Church are the epitome of what scripture promises.

Oh.my.GOSH!  Are you saying the teachings of the Catholic church are infallible, but SCRIPTURE, the WORD of God isn't?

Those that follow the Word of God will display the fruit of the Spirit! It is not exclusive to those that follow the teachings of the Catholic church.

I'm not saying that at all.  You said that true teaching will produce good fruits.  And then I said that those who follow the teachings of the Catholic Church provide the best fruits.  I said nothing about scripture not being "infallible" (I think you mean "inerrant", as "infallibility" is another attribute of a living being, not of a document).  I never said that it was exclusive to those who follow the teachings of the Catholic Church either.

Where do you come up with this stuff?  What you wrote was pure calumny, a sin.

WHAT?! I asked you a question so that you could clarify for me and you say I sin in doing so?  Whatever.

And tell me, what happens when a parishioner in the congregation believes that the leader's teaching doesn't line up with scripture? 

They have the freedom to GO to their pastor and question them.  There is dialog, there is conversation, that is what happens in relationships.

Why, so do we...

Who decides who is right?

Ultimately people must live their convictions.  If no agreement can be met, there is freedom to leave and find a body that is a better fit.

a.k.a. People decide for themselves based on their own interpretation of scripture.

I'd rather "decide" for myself than drink the kool-aid just because someone "says" they have authority given to them by God.  I have the Word to hold that persons in authority to account. 
As a side note; If God's word convicts us, we better act on it!  God's word does that you know...and just because it convicts ME of something does not mean I judge others for NOT being convicted in the exact same way!

  It is fairly easy for different people to have different opinions on what scripture says.  What happens when that is the case?

They wish each other well, and move on. 

Or start their own congregation.  They are their own authority.

If that was to happen, GOD would be their authority and the Word would be the standard that others would hold them to account.

And what if what they are talking about, scripture has nothing to say?

That falls under showing grace.  A difference of preference.

That is not what God intended.  Whether abortion is wrong?  A matter of preference...?  Whether same-sex marriage is wrong?  A matter of preference...?  (Before you bother responding, yes the Bible condemns relations with someone of same-sex but it doesn't explicitly condemn marriage to someone of the same sex, at least, not how most people commonly interpret the verses on marriage).
 
The Word speaks on same sex relationships being wrong,so of course marriage of the same sex would be out as well.  Abortion is wrong because it is murder and God's Word is clear that is a sin.

God did not leave us orphans.  He left us, rather, with a living Church, to which He gave his authority.  That is one of His jobs as a God who loves us, to help us know moral truth with certitude so that we can avoid sin and so to have life.

Keep your church.  I'd rather His Word and my relationship with Christ Jesus who is my Savior and where my salvation is found.  I am glad for the local body around me to fellowship with, pray with, encourage and admonish to walk in the Truth. 

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #58 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 16:50:47 »
Quote
God did not leave us orphans.  He left us, rather, with a living Church, to which He gave his authority.  That is one of His jobs as a God who loves us, to help us know moral truth with certitude so that we can avoid sin and so to have life.

Let's look at what the Bible actually says:

"If you love me, you will obey what I command.  Ad I will ask the Father and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever -- the Spirit of truth.  The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him.  But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.  I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you."

In other words, the Lord did not leave the RCC, He gave us Himself through His Holy Spirit.  Quite a difference.

Is avoiding sin having life?  That, again, is not what the Bible says:  "Father, the time has come.  Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.  For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.  Now this is eternal life:  that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Yes, we need to avoid sin.  But that is not what gives us eternal life.  Eternal life is a gift from Jesus Christ to those who belong to Him. 

Catholic doctrine simply does not agree with Bible, I guess.



Great post, Helen! 

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #59 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 16:54:03 »
The Bible is not a Catholic book and RC does not agree with it in many areas -- in fact one of your councils pronounced those who believe Ephesians 2:8-9 anathema.  Oh well....

And, as far as the gift of the Holy Spirit is concerned, Paul indicated it was a gift to believers individually:

"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.  And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."  Romans 8:9

pretty clear....except maybe to the RCC.  Paul never mentions a corporate body there.  He is speaking of the indwelling Holy Spirit in believers.

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #60 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 20:38:44 »
@ Winsome:
@ Catholica:

The 18 year old boy would be a born again child of the Creator God Who Gave His only Son as a ransom to save all those who would believe in the One whom He sent. Amen

In other words he would be the same as the disciples of the early church and those who claim salvation in the triumphant, resurrected Lord Jesus in this forum, right now.

He would not, like you two, be wasting his time and talents promoting a brick and mortar organization full of paganism, and traditions that are built on sand.
He would not be found in a special garment, or vesement to indicate his rank to the world.
He'd have no use for cathedrals, or thrones which would only confuse him as to who'd want to occupy them.
He would realize God is for him, and Jesus is in Him, and he lives eternally while waiting to go to heaven.
This would be the topic of his conversation, and this would be the beginning and the end of his religion.

If asked the question; neither of you can say if you're going to heaven or not because your church and your god has left you like orphans in this world, without hope.

Here's a few more things our boy may want to tell you later.

Jesus is no longer an infant on Mary's lap.
He's not third in line as mediator below Mary.
He doesn't sit and watch as Mary hears our prayers.
Mary cannot hear anyones prayers.
Mary is dead and cannot interceded for anyone to God.
Mary could have been any number of woman.
Mary is not part of the Triune Godhead.
Worship of Mary is idolatry.
Having other god's, like Mary, before Him is a violation of the first commandment.
Those statues of Jesus and Mary, etc. are a violation of the second commandment.

Transubstantiation is a tested and proven lie.
Jesus was a body prepared by God to be sacrificed once and for all.
The Mass is a mockery of the finished work of Jesus on the cross.
The mass is a denial of the resurrection, and the living Lord Jesus.
Consuming a wafer and drinking some wine then claiming to have received the Lord Jesus is blatant contempt of Jesus own explanation of the metaphor, John 6:63.
Celebration of the mass negates the entire New Testament and, at best, would only leave a man forgiven of his sins but not filled with the Holy Spirit,
as per the resurrection and Pentecost, therefore NOT born-again, therefore not able to enter the Kingdom of God.
« Last Edit: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 20:40:54 by Gregree »

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #61 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 20:58:13 »
Thank you, Gregree and Amen.

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #62 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 22:03:10 »
@ Winsome:
@ Catholica:

The 18 year old boy would be a born again child of the Creator God Who Gave His only Son as a ransom to save all those who would believe in the One whom He sent. Amen

In other words he would be the same as the disciples of the early church and those who claim salvation in the triumphant, resurrected Lord Jesus in this forum, right now.

He would not, like you two, be wasting his time and talents promoting a brick and mortar organization full of paganism, and traditions that are built on sand.
He would not be found in a special garment, or vesement to indicate his rank to the world.
He'd have no use for cathedrals, or thrones which would only confuse him as to who'd want to occupy them.
He would realize God is for him, and Jesus is in Him, and he lives eternally while waiting to go to heaven.
This would be the topic of his conversation, and this would be the beginning and the end of his religion.

If asked the question; neither of you can say if you're going to heaven or not because your church and your god has left you like orphans in this world, without hope.

Here's a few more things our boy may want to tell you later.

Jesus is no longer an infant on Mary's lap.
He's not third in line as mediator below Mary.
He doesn't sit and watch as Mary hears our prayers.
Mary cannot hear anyones prayers.
Mary is dead and cannot interceded for anyone to God.
Mary could have been any number of woman.
Mary is not part of the Triune Godhead.
Worship of Mary is idolatry.
Having other god's, like Mary, before Him is a violation of the first commandment.
Those statues of Jesus and Mary, etc. are a violation of the second commandment.

Transubstantiation is a tested and proven lie.
Jesus was a body prepared by God to be sacrificed once and for all.
The Mass is a mockery of the finished work of Jesus on the cross.
The mass is a denial of the resurrection, and the living Lord Jesus.
Consuming a wafer and drinking some wine then claiming to have received the Lord Jesus is blatant contempt of Jesus own explanation of the metaphor, John 6:63.
Celebration of the mass negates the entire New Testament and, at best, would only leave a man forgiven of his sins but not filled with the Holy Spirit,
as per the resurrection and Pentecost, therefore NOT born-again, therefore not able to enter the Kingdom of God.

If the Latin Rite is so terrible and wrong, why do you come to this section? Golly, if I were you I would want to stay as far away from Catholics as possible, even to the point of communicating with them in any way, shape, manner or form. The only thing you have done here is to prove your ignorance of the original faith tradition. I will pray for you.
« Last Edit: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 22:07:28 by Ladonia »

Offline Helen

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #63 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 22:23:42 »
Quote
If the Latin Rite is so terrible and wrong, why do you come to this section? Golly, if I were you I would want to stay as far away from Catholics as possible, even to the point of communicating with them in any way, shape, manner or form.

You are on a non-Catholic forum that has a Catholic section.  Of course we will do our best to counteract the falsehoods we see in Catholicism.

And 'the original faith tradition' -- strange phrasing.  The original faith and the only true faith in in Jesus Christ, and in Him alone, as Lord, God, Savior.  Mary was blessed, but not elevated or assumed.  The 'saints' are believers, not those the Vatican chooses to elevate to that title.  The original faith was Bible-based, not Catholic church based.

Offline Gregree

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #64 on: Tue Dec 03, 2013 - 18:17:57 »
HELEN:

Hey my sister. Nice to see you countering these orphans with the hope they'll see the Light of the world!
I don't expect any intelligent responses so I'm not going to spend much more time throwing pearls, if you know what I mean?
I do feel badly for the orphaned Roman Catholics who are left to subjective theology and pauper princes who pose themselves as Christ's Vicar on Earth!
A true child of the Living God knows their position before Him and can speak out, 'I have eternal life, and I'm going to heaven when I die'.
A lost person finds our testimony foolish and worthy of spite.

Catholic people are sincere in their desire to be right but the kidnapped and restrained words of the Holy Bible has left them dependent on teachers, who in turn have exploited them at every turn.

Please enjoy the following response of John Calvin to the Bishop of Carpentras France 1539, Cardinal Jacopo Sadoleto, when he asked him and the citizens of Geneva to return to the Catholic faith. Calvin replied, with only the dawn of the reformation gleaming in his eye, defending the Protestant forms:

Quote John Calvin:

“A prophet, holding the place of teacher, should be judged by the congregation (1Cor.14:29).
Whoever exempts himself from this must first expunge his name from the list of prophets.
And here, a very wide field for exposing your ignorance opens upon me, since, in matters of religious controversy all that you leave to the faithful is to shut their own eyes and submit implicitly to their teachers.
But since it is certain that every soul that does not depend on God alone is enslaved to Satan, how miserable must they be who are imbued with such rudiments of faith?
Hence I observe that you have too indolent a theology, as is almost always the case with those who have never had experience with serious struggles of conscience.
For otherwise, you would never place a Christian man on ground so slippery, nay, precipitous, that he can scarcely stand a moment if even the slightest push is given him.
Give me, I say, not some unlearned man from among the people, but the rudest clown, and if he is to belong to the flock of God, he must be prepared for that warfare which He has ordained for all the Godly.
An armed enemy is at hand, on the alert to engage; an enemy most skillful and unassailable by mortal strength; to resist him, with what guards must not that poor man be defended, with  what  weapons armed, if he is not to be instantly annihilated?
Paul informs us (Eph. 6:17), that the only sword with which he can fight is the Word of the Lord. A soul, therefore, when deprived of the Word of God, is given up unarmed to the devil for destruction.
Now, then, will not the first machination of the enemy be to rest the sword from the soldier of Christ?
And what better method of resting it, but to set him to doubting whether it may be the Word of the Lord he is leaning upon,  or the word of men? 
What will you do for this unhappy being? Will you bid him look round for learned men on whom reclining he may take his rest?
But the enemy will not leave him so much as a breathing time in this deception. For when once he has driven him to lean upon men, he will keep urging and repeating his blows until he throws him over the precipice.
 Thus, he must either be easily overthrown, or he must forsake man and look directly to God.
So true is it that Christian faith must not be founded on human testimony, not propped up on doubtful opinion , not reclined on human authority, but engraven on our hearts by the finger of the living God, so as not to be obliterated by any coloring of error.
There is nothing of Christ then, in Him who does not hold the elementary principle, that it is God alone who enlightens our minds to perceive His truth, who by His Spirit seals it in our hearts, and by His sure attestation to it, confirms our conscience.”


From: A Reformation Debate, edited by John C. Olin, Baker books

Now days, I'm sure you don't waste your time defining yourself as a Protest-ant to this monolith of evil, because we know Who we belong to and no longer have to escape the clutches of her vice. I admire Calvin for being a pioneer in the restoration of God's Gospel of salvation from the Latin tongue to the savage tongue, and I pity the future of the Vatican.
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 03, 2013 - 18:23:24 by Gregree »

Offline Ladonia

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #65 on: Tue Dec 03, 2013 - 20:11:02 »
Quote
If the Latin Rite is so terrible and wrong, why do you come to this section? Golly, if I were you I would want to stay as far away from Catholics as possible, even to the point of communicating with them in any way, shape, manner or form.

You are on a non-Catholic forum that has a Catholic section.  Of course we will do our best to counteract the falsehoods we see in Catholicism.

And 'the original faith tradition' -- strange phrasing.  The original faith and the only true faith in in Jesus Christ, and in Him alone, as Lord, God, Savior.  Mary was blessed, but not elevated or assumed.  The 'saints' are believers, not those the Vatican chooses to elevate to that title.  The original faith was Bible-based, not Catholic church based.

The original faith was not "bible" based as you claim, because  the New Testament scriptures as we know them did not exist for some 300 years. The original faith was based on Jesus Christ and was taught mostly in the oral fashion. I see your historical knowledge of Christianity is quite limited.

Offline Helen

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #66 on: Tue Dec 03, 2013 - 20:23:18 »
Quote
If the Latin Rite is so terrible and wrong, why do you come to this section? Golly, if I were you I would want to stay as far away from Catholics as possible, even to the point of communicating with them in any way, shape, manner or form.

You are on a non-Catholic forum that has a Catholic section.  Of course we will do our best to counteract the falsehoods we see in Catholicism.

And 'the original faith tradition' -- strange phrasing.  The original faith and the only true faith in in Jesus Christ, and in Him alone, as Lord, God, Savior.  Mary was blessed, but not elevated or assumed.  The 'saints' are believers, not those the Vatican chooses to elevate to that title.  The original faith was Bible-based, not Catholic church based.

The original faith was not "bible" based as you claim, because  the New Testament scriptures as we know them did not exist for some 300 years. The original faith was based on Jesus Christ and was taught mostly in the oral fashion. I see your historical knowledge of Christianity is quite limited.

Amazing, since we have letters quoting the Gospels and Paul's letters in particular dating from long before the 3rd century.  You really think Paul's letters were oral?  He himself says he is writing them!  Peter referred to Paul's writings as Scripture.  But then, what did Peter know?

Offline Ladonia

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #67 on: Tue Dec 03, 2013 - 20:29:59 »
HELEN:

Hey my sister. Nice to see you countering these orphans with the hope they'll see the Light of the world!
I don't expect any intelligent responses so I'm not going to spend much more time throwing pearls, if you know what I mean?
I do feel badly for the orphaned Roman Catholics who are left to subjective theology and pauper princes who pose themselves as Christ's Vicar on Earth!
A true child of the Living God knows their position before Him and can speak out, 'I have eternal life, and I'm going to heaven when I die'.
A lost person finds our testimony foolish and worthy of spite.

Catholic people are sincere in their desire to be right but the kidnapped and restrained words of the Holy Bible has left them dependent on teachers, who in turn have exploited them at every turn.

Please enjoy the following response of John Calvin to the Bishop of Carpentras France 1539, Cardinal Jacopo Sadoleto, when he asked him and the citizens of Geneva to return to the Catholic faith. Calvin replied, with only the dawn of the reformation gleaming in his eye, defending the Protestant forms:

Quote John Calvin:

“A prophet, holding the place of teacher, should be judged by the congregation (1Cor.14:29).
Whoever exempts himself from this must first expunge his name from the list of prophets.
And here, a very wide field for exposing your ignorance opens upon me, since, in matters of religious controversy all that you leave to the faithful is to shut their own eyes and submit implicitly to their teachers.
But since it is certain that every soul that does not depend on God alone is enslaved to Satan, how miserable must they be who are imbued with such rudiments of faith?
Hence I observe that you have too indolent a theology, as is almost always the case with those who have never had experience with serious struggles of conscience.
For otherwise, you would never place a Christian man on ground so slippery, nay, precipitous, that he can scarcely stand a moment if even the slightest push is given him.
Give me, I say, not some unlearned man from among the people, but the rudest clown, and if he is to belong to the flock of God, he must be prepared for that warfare which He has ordained for all the Godly.
An armed enemy is at hand, on the alert to engage; an enemy most skillful and unassailable by mortal strength; to resist him, with what guards must not that poor man be defended, with  what  weapons armed, if he is not to be instantly annihilated?
Paul informs us (Eph. 6:17), that the only sword with which he can fight is the Word of the Lord. A soul, therefore, when deprived of the Word of God, is given up unarmed to the devil for destruction.
Now, then, will not the first machination of the enemy be to rest the sword from the soldier of Christ?
And what better method of resting it, but to set him to doubting whether it may be the Word of the Lord he is leaning upon,  or the word of men? 
What will you do for this unhappy being? Will you bid him look round for learned men on whom reclining he may take his rest?
But the enemy will not leave him so much as a breathing time in this deception. For when once he has driven him to lean upon men, he will keep urging and repeating his blows until he throws him over the precipice.
 Thus, he must either be easily overthrown, or he must forsake man and look directly to God.
So true is it that Christian faith must not be founded on human testimony, not propped up on doubtful opinion , not reclined on human authority, but engraven on our hearts by the finger of the living God, so as not to be obliterated by any coloring of error.
There is nothing of Christ then, in Him who does not hold the elementary principle, that it is God alone who enlightens our minds to perceive His truth, who by His Spirit seals it in our hearts, and by His sure attestation to it, confirms our conscience.”


From: A Reformation Debate, edited by John C. Olin, Baker books

Now days, I'm sure you don't waste your time defining yourself as a Protest-ant to this monolith of evil, because we know Who we belong to and no longer have to escape the clutches of her vice. I admire Calvin for being a pioneer in the restoration of God's Gospel of salvation from the Latin tongue to the savage tongue, and I pity the future of the Vatican.

I see that you like your fellow traveler Helen, you are quite limited in your knowledge of early Christian history and the way Christians used to worship. Believe me, it was quite different from the way you rejectionists now do things, with your service consisting of your pastor haranging the congregation with his poor interpretation of the Holy Scriptures,  and your Sunday snack of crackers and grape juice. And it sure must be hard to concentrate in that storefront where you worship with all the car horn honking and shoppers passing by. Man, how can you stand all that noise?

Offline Ladonia

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #68 on: Tue Dec 03, 2013 - 20:34:38 »
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If the Latin Rite is so terrible and wrong, why do you come to this section? Golly, if I were you I would want to stay as far away from Catholics as possible, even to the point of communicating with them in any way, shape, manner or form.

You are on a non-Catholic forum that has a Catholic section.  Of course we will do our best to counteract the falsehoods we see in Catholicism.

And 'the original faith tradition' -- strange phrasing.  The original faith and the only true faith in in Jesus Christ, and in Him alone, as Lord, God, Savior.  Mary was blessed, but not elevated or assumed.  The 'saints' are believers, not those the Vatican chooses to elevate to that title.  The original faith was Bible-based, not Catholic church based.

The original faith was not "bible" based as you claim, because  the New Testament scriptures as we know them did not exist for some 300 years. The original faith was based on Jesus Christ and was taught mostly in the oral fashion. I see your historical knowledge of Christianity is quite limited.

Amazing, since we have letters quoting the Gospels and Paul's letters in particular dating from long before the 3rd century.  You really think Paul's letters were oral?  He himself says he is writing them!  Peter referred to Paul's writings as Scripture.  But then, what did Peter know?

So in the midst of preaching about the Savior, St. Paul whips out his own letters and starts reading from them? Surely you jest! And St Peter, a man who was with the Lord and experienced everything first hand reads from them also? I sincerely doubt that also.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #69 on: Tue Dec 03, 2013 - 20:38:57 »
Quote
If the Latin Rite is so terrible and wrong, why do you come to this section? Golly, if I were you I would want to stay as far away from Catholics as possible, even to the point of communicating with them in any way, shape, manner or form.

You are on a non-Catholic forum that has a Catholic section.  Of course we will do our best to counteract the falsehoods we see in Catholicism.

And 'the original faith tradition' -- strange phrasing.  The original faith and the only true faith in in Jesus Christ, and in Him alone, as Lord, God, Savior.  Mary was blessed, but not elevated or assumed.  The 'saints' are believers, not those the Vatican chooses to elevate to that title.  The original faith was Bible-based, not Catholic church based.

No falsehoods to counteract my friend, you are wasting your time. And pleas
Quote
If the Latin Rite is so terrible and wrong, why do you come to this section? Golly, if I were you I would want to stay as far away from Catholics as possible, even to the point of communicating with them in any way, shape, manner or form.

You are on a non-Catholic forum that has a Catholic section.  Of course we will do our best to counteract the falsehoods we see in Catholicism.

And 'the original faith tradition' -- strange phrasing.  The original faith and the only true faith in in Jesus Christ, and in Him alone, as Lord, God, Savior.  Mary was blessed, but not elevated or assumed.  The 'saints' are believers, not those the Vatican chooses to elevate to that title.  The original faith was Bible-based, not Catholic church based.

No falsehoods to counteract as far as I am concerned - you are wasting your time. Now tell me, where in the Scriptures does it say the Jesus said to write it all down and to let the people come to their own conclusions?

 

     
anything