Author Topic: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"  (Read 8012 times)

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Offline Gregree

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #70 on: Tue Dec 03, 2013 - 21:39:03 »
@ Ladonia

I see that you like your fellow traveler Helen, you are quite limited in your knowledge of early Christian history and the way Christians used to worship. Believe me, it was quite different from the way you rejectionists now do things, with your service consisting of your pastor haranging the congregation with his poor interpretation of the Holy Scriptures,  and your Sunday snack of crackers and grape juice. And it sure must be hard to concentrate in that storefront where you worship with all the car horn honking and shoppers passing by. Man, how can you stand all that noise?
[/quote]

Well said, professor, you've succeeded in proving your inability to pick up where the conversation left off, and then you portray a fantasy from your imagination of what we're talking about, again proving you're not reading with any comprehension skills.

But, in the end, we're talking two different languages here.

I was born and raised in the Catholic church. I went to Parochial schools and have many relatives in the priesthood. My late mother had a birthmark she was told connected her to Mary and she lived and died with this idea and no ability to tell me she was going to heaven when she died, and she rejected the parts of the bible, (Catholic or otherwise), that proved she could, because she was told she couldn't trust it!!! If this is true, you and your cohorts in here need to stop quoting scripture at all. You have no right to pick and choose what you "think" supports your false church while you deny the rest. This is intellectual dishonesty at its highest form.

I can tell you today professor, my mother is not with God, the same as my grandmother, who was Jewish till her death, went to the grave without being reborn as we are instructed by Jesus  that we have to be, or we will not see the Kingdom of God.

According to the writings of Richard Wurmbrand, Transubstantiation has been proven false, in communist prisons no less, where the captors would torment priests by putting poisons and fecal matter in the place of wafers and wine, then tell them to consume it afterwards, if they truly believed they were changed into the body and blood of Christ. It's crude but the results remain false.

You are not reborn by eating at the mass. Read the explanation of the allegory by Jesus from the passage where you get this fallacy:
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
The flesh profits nothing!

It's all about LIFE professor. We are saved by His LIFE.
Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Did you know, while you still have him on the crucifix He's been resurrected from the dead and restoring LIFE to men who come to HIM for it?

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

There's your dilemma above. With your pithy dates and historical delusions, you don't have the Word, you don't have Life, and you don't have the Light of men.

You're the one professor, who doesn't 'comprehend' what's going on. Get out of the church and into the Kingdom. Drop the religion and start a relationship.







« Last Edit: Tue Dec 03, 2013 - 21:43:07 by Gregree »

Offline Helen

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #71 on: Tue Dec 03, 2013 - 21:41:07 »
Ladonia, your responses tend to be nonsense, I'm sorry.  Of course Peter read Paul's material, or he would not have referred to them as Scripture.  The letters from both of them were quoted in other letters passed around to the churches in the first and second centuries and beyond, long before the Catholics decided to formally approve the material that had already been accepted as Scripture by believers.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #72 on: Tue Dec 03, 2013 - 21:59:17 »
@ Ladonia

I see that you like your fellow traveler Helen, you are quite limited in your knowledge of early Christian history and the way Christians used to worship. Believe me, it was quite different from the way you rejectionists now do things, with your service consisting of your pastor haranging the congregation with his poor interpretation of the Holy Scriptures,  and your Sunday snack of crackers and grape juice. And it sure must be hard to concentrate in that storefront where you worship with all the car horn honking and shoppers passing by. Man, how can you stand all that noise?

Well said, professor, you've succeeded in proving your inability to pick up where the conversation left off, and then you portray a fantasy from your imagination of what we're talking about, again proving you're not reading with any comprehension skills.

But, in the end, we're talking two different languages here.

I was born and raised in the Catholic church. I went to Parochial schools and have many relatives in the priesthood. My late mother had a birthmark she was told connected her to Mary and she lived and died with this idea and no ability to tell me she was going to heaven when she died, and she rejected the parts of the bible, (Catholic or otherwise), that proved she could, because she was told she couldn't trust it!!! If this is true, you and your cohorts in here need to stop quoting scripture at all. You have no right to pick and choose what you "think" supports your false church while you deny the rest. This is intellectual dishonesty at its highest form.

I can tell you today professor, my mother is not with God, the same as my grandmother, who was Jewish till her death, went to the grave without being reborn as we are instructed by Jesus  that we have to be, or we will not see the Kingdom of God.

According to the writings of Richard Wurmbrand, Transubstantiation has been proven false, in communist prisons no less, where the captors would torment priests by putting poisons and fecal matter in the place of wafers and wine, then tell them to consume it afterwards, if they truly believed they were changed into the body and blood of Christ. It's crude but the results remain false.

You are not reborn by eating at the mass. Read the explanation of the allegory by Jesus from the passage where you get this fallacy:
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
The flesh profits nothing!

It's all about LIFE professor. We are saved by His LIFE.
Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Did you know, while you still have him on the crucifix He's been resurrected from the dead and restoring LIFE to men who come to HIM for it?

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

There's your dilemma above. With your pithy dates and historical delusions, you don't have the Word, you don't have Life, and you don't have the Light of men.

You're the one professor, who doesn't 'comprehend' what's going on. Get out of the church and into the Kingdom. Drop the religion and start a relationship.








[/quote
@ Ladonia

I see that you like your fellow traveler Helen, you are quite limited in your knowledge of early Christian history and the way Christians used to worship. Believe me, it was quite different from the way you rejectionists now do things, with your service consisting of your pastor haranging the congregation with his poor interpretation of the Holy Scriptures,  and your Sunday snack of crackers and grape juice. And it sure must be hard to concentrate in that storefront where you worship with all the car horn honking and shoppers passing by. Man, how can you stand all that noise?

Well said, professor, you've succeeded in proving your inability to pick up where the conversation left off, and then you portray a fantasy from your imagination of what we're talking about, again proving you're not reading with any comprehension skills.

But, in the end, we're talking two different languages here.

I was born and raised in the Catholic church. I went to Parochial schools and have many relatives in the priesthood. My late mother had a birthmark she was told connected her to Mary and she lived and died with this idea and no ability to tell me she was going to heaven when she died, and she rejected the parts of the bible, (Catholic or otherwise), that proved she could, because she was told she couldn't trust it!!! If this is true, you and your cohorts in here need to stop quoting scripture at all. You have no right to pick and choose what you "think" supports your false church while you deny the rest. This is intellectual dishonesty at its highest form.

I can tell you today professor, my mother is not with God, the same as my grandmother, who was Jewish till her death, went to the grave without being reborn as we are instructed by Jesus  that we have to be, or we will not see the Kingdom of God.

According to the writings of Richard Wurmbrand, Transubstantiation has been proven false, in communist prisons no less, where the captors would torment priests by putting poisons and fecal matter in the place of wafers and wine, then tell them to consume it afterwards, if they truly believed they were changed into the body and blood of Christ. It's crude but the results remain false.

You are not reborn by eating at the mass. Read the explanation of the allegory by Jesus from the passage where you get this fallacy:
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
The flesh profits nothing!

It's all about LIFE professor. We are saved by His LIFE.
Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Did you know, while you still have him on the crucifix He's been resurrected from the dead and restoring LIFE to men who come to HIM for it?

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

There's your dilemma above. With your pithy dates and historical delusions, you don't have the Word, you don't have Life, and you don't have the Light of men.

You're the one professor, who doesn't 'comprehend' what's going on. Get out of the church and into the Kingdom. Drop the religion and start a relationship.








[/quote]
@ Ladonia

I see that you like your fellow traveler Helen, you are quite limited in your knowledge of early Christian history and the way Christians used to worship. Believe me, it was quite different from the way you rejectionists now do things, with your service consisting of your pastor haranging the congregation with his poor interpretation of the Holy Scriptures,  and your Sunday snack of crackers and grape juice. And it sure must be hard to concentrate in that storefront where you worship with all the car horn honking and shoppers passing by. Man, how can you stand all that noise?

Well said, professor, you've succeeded in proving your inability to pick up where the conversation left off, and then you portray a fantasy from your imagination of what we're talking about, again proving you're not reading with any comprehension skills.

But, in the end, we're talking two different languages here.

I was born and raised in the Catholic church. I went to Parochial schools and have many relatives in the priesthood. My late mother had a birthmark she was told connected her to Mary and she lived and died with this idea and no ability to tell me she was going to heaven when she died, and she rejected the parts of the bible, (Catholic or otherwise), that proved she could, because she was told she couldn't trust it!!! If this is true, you and your cohorts in here need to stop quoting scripture at all. You have no right to pick and choose what you "think" supports your false church while you deny the rest. This is intellectual dishonesty at its highest form.

I can tell you today professor, my mother is not with God, the same as my grandmother, who was Jewish till her death, went to the grave without being reborn as we are instructed by Jesus  that we have to be, or we will not see the Kingdom of God.

According to the writings of Richard Wurmbrand, Transubstantiation has been proven false, in communist prisons no less, where the captors would torment priests by putting poisons and fecal matter in the place of wafers and wine, then tell them to consume it afterwards, if they truly believed they were changed into the body and blood of Christ. It's crude but the results remain false.

You are not reborn by eating at the mass. Read the explanation of the allegory by Jesus from the passage where you get this fallacy:
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
The flesh profits nothing!

It's all about LIFE professor. We are saved by His LIFE.
Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Did you know, while you still have him on the crucifix He's been resurrected from the dead and restoring LIFE to men who come to HIM for it?

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

There's your dilemma above. With your pithy dates and historical delusions, you don't have the Word, you don't have Life, and you don't have the Light of men.

You're the one professor, who doesn't 'comprehend' what's going on. Get out of the church and into the Kingdom. Drop the religion and start a relationship.

[/quote]

No wonder you are such a fanatic against the Catholic Church, this explains it all and I should have guessed that this was the case. And as far as transubstantiation goes,  you want me to believe the musings of another rejectionist like yourself, a member  of some minor Christian sect about this basic doctrine? Not hardly! I'll stay with the writings of  the good solid Catholic theologians who have taught the faithful throughout the many centuries.
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 03, 2013 - 22:03:10 by Ladonia »

Offline Ladonia

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #73 on: Tue Dec 03, 2013 - 22:08:24 »
Ladonia, your responses tend to be nonsense, I'm sorry.  Of course Peter read Paul's material, or he would not have referred to them as Scripture.  The letters from both of them were quoted in other letters passed around to the churches in the first and second centuries and beyond, long before the Catholics decided to formally approve the material that had already been accepted as Scripture by believers.

So now you do admit that it was the Catholics that put the New Testament together as we now know it. Good, this shows you know a bit more history about the subject then I thought you did.

Offline Helen

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #74 on: Tue Dec 03, 2013 - 22:25:42 »
You intentionally misrepresented what I wrote.  give it up.

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #74 on: Tue Dec 03, 2013 - 22:25:42 »



Offline Gregree

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #75 on: Tue Dec 03, 2013 - 22:34:04 »
Ladonia:

"No wonder you are such a fanatic against the Catholic Church, this explains it all and I should have guessed that this was the case."

Are you kidding me? That's your reaction? I'm not looking for sympathy, so don't misunderstand...I'm just saying, you think that situation with my mom is OK?
And, you feel I have no educated perspective to critique from, you make me into an enemy by necessity.
When have you ever walked in my shoes, Ladonia? Oh that's right, you have no clue, but you can fight it to the death?


"And as far as transubstantiation goes,  you want me to believe the musings of another rejectionist like yourself, a member  of some minor Christian sect about this basic doctrine? Not hardly!"
Again, this man was imprisoned for being a minister along with priests and rabbis alike. He was bought out of prison after 14 years or he would have died anonymous.
He testified to the United States congress about communist human rights violations and wrote many books to warn  ALL the world about such things. And you speak of him like he's less than you? By the way, his observations about the Mass were side notes to his calling by God.


"I'll stay with the writings of  the good solid Catholic theologians who have taught the faithful throughout the many centuries."
Yes you will. You read the scripture I quoted and it bounced right off your heart because your heart is hard. The written word which correlates to the Living Word, which translates to knowledge and truth, have no place in you.

Till tomorrow, Cheers!


Offline Ladonia

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #76 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 10:23:12 »
Ladonia:

"No wonder you are such a fanatic against the Catholic Church, this explains it all and I should have guessed that this was the case."

Are you kidding me? That's your reaction? I'm not looking for sympathy, so don't misunderstand...I'm just saying, you think that situation with my mom is OK?
And, you feel I have no educated perspective to critique from, you make me into an enemy by necessity.
When have you ever walked in my shoes, Ladonia? Oh that's right, you have no clue, but you can fight it to the death?


"And as far as transubstantiation goes,  you want me to believe the musings of another rejectionist like yourself, a member  of some minor Christian sect about this basic doctrine? Not hardly!"
Again, this man was imprisoned for being a minister along with priests and rabbis alike. He was bought out of prison after 14 years or he would have died anonymous.
He testified to the United States congress about communist human rights violations and wrote many books to warn  ALL the world about such things. And you speak of him like he's less than you? By the way, his observations about the Mass were side notes to his calling by God.


"I'll stay with the writings of  the good solid Catholic theologians who have taught the faithful throughout the many centuries."
Yes you will. You read the scripture I quoted and it bounced right off your heart because your heart is hard. The written word which correlates to the Living Word, which translates to knowledge and truth, have no place in you.

Till tomorrow, Cheers!



You can believe all you want about the final destiny of your mother and Jewish grandmother, but I believe God's mercy is infinite and we cannot comprehend it with our finite minds. This is where the current  Christian teaching you now receive is in error. But anyway, as regards the Jewish people, so according to what you believe and despite the fact that the Jews are God's chosen people and the covenant with them remains in force, they are all consigned to the fires of hell because they don't believe in Christ as the Messiah? No, I don't believe that for a moment.
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 10:30:20 by Ladonia »

Offline DaveW

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #77 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 10:40:10 »
You can believe all you want about the final destiny of your mother and Jewish grandmother, but I believe God's mercy is infinite and we cannot comprehend it with our finite minds. This is where the current  Christian teaching you now receive is in error. But anyway, as regards the Jewish people, so according to what you believe and despite the fact that the Jews are God's chosen people and the covenant with them remains in force, they are all consigned to the fires of hell because they don't believe in Christ as the Messiah? No, I don't believe that for a moment.


Then you are making the same mistake that John Hagee makes.  It is blatantly antisemetic and unbiblical.  The gospel is to the JEW FIRST. (Rom 1) That is as much order of priority as it is chronological.

As a Messianic, I am familiar with the various soteriological positions being argued back and forth between various honest and learned men, specifically regarding the fate of non-Messianic Jews.

I take pretty much a narrow hope view.  Most of my peers are a bit wider (including Dan Juster).

Here is an article that examines the topic and the recent discussion.

http://www.kesherjournal.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=89&Itemid=429

Offline Ladonia

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #78 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 11:04:26 »
You can believe all you want about the final destiny of your mother and Jewish grandmother, but I believe God's mercy is infinite and we cannot comprehend it with our finite minds. This is where the current  Christian teaching you now receive is in error. But anyway, as regards the Jewish people, so according to what you believe and despite the fact that the Jews are God's chosen people and the covenant with them remains in force, they are all consigned to the fires of hell because they don't believe in Christ as the Messiah? No, I don't believe that for a moment.


Then you are making the same mistake that John Hagee makes.  It is blatantly antisemetic and unbiblical.  The gospel is to the JEW FIRST. (Rom 1) That is as much order of priority as it is chronological.

As a Messianic, I am familiar with the various soteriological positions being argued back and forth between various honest and learned men, specifically regarding the fate of non-Messianic Jews.

I take pretty much a narrow hope view.  Most of my peers are a bit wider (including Dan Juster).

Here is an article that examines the topic and the recent discussion.

http://www.kesherjournal.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=89&Itemid=429


You mean Gregree is making the same mistake, don't you?

Offline DaveW

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #79 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 11:48:29 »
You mean Gregree is making the same mistake, don't you?
No not really.  It was YOU who said they do not need to come to faith in Messiah to escape hell. That is the error Hagee believes.  I find it atrocious.
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 11:51:50 by DaveW »

Offline Helen

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #80 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 11:54:57 »
Let's look at what Jesus said: 

Once more Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”

 This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?”

 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.  I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”
(John 8:21-24)

and who did Jesus claim to be?

Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him,  but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” (John10:31-33)

So, it seems, Jews or not, belief in Christ as God is paramount to salvation.




Offline Ladonia

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #81 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 12:18:22 »
You mean Gregree is making the same mistake, don't you?
No not really.  It was YOU who said they do not need to come to faith in Messiah to escape hell. That is the error Hagee believes.  I find it atrocious.

Okay, refresh my memory - it's been awhile since I have posted here, so please give me the specific posts so I can re-read them. As for Mr. Hagee, you are saying that he believes that people don't need to believe in Jesus Christ to escape hell, is that what you are saying?
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 12:27:42 by Ladonia »

Offline MeMyself

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #82 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 12:33:23 »
You mean Gregree is making the same mistake, don't you?
No not really.  It was YOU who said they do not need to come to faith in Messiah to escape hell. That is the error Hagee believes.  I find it atrocious.

Okay, refresh my memory - it's been awhile since I have posted here, so please give me the specific posts so I can re-read them. As for Mr. Hagee, you are saying that he believes that people don't need to believe in Jesus Christ to escape hell, is that what you are saying?
From what I understand of Mr. Hagee, he doesn't believe JEWISH people need to believe in Christ Jesus for salvation.  He believes they are saved because He calls them His people.  That is false.  No man comes to the Father except through belief in Jesus Christ.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #83 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 12:41:31 »
You mean Gregree is making the same mistake, don't you?
No not really.  It was YOU who said they do not need to come to faith in Messiah to escape hell. That is the error Hagee believes.  I find it atrocious.

Okay, refresh my memory - it's been awhile since I have posted here, so please give me the specific posts so I can re-read them. As for Mr. Hagee, you are saying that he believes that people don't need to believe in Jesus Christ to escape hell, is that what you are saying?
From what I understand of Mr. Hagee, he doesn't believe JEWISH people need to believe in Christ Jesus for salvation.  He believes they are saved because He calls them His people.  That is false.  No man comes to the Father except through belief in Jesus Christ.
You mean Gregree is making the same mistake, don't you?
No not really.  It was YOU who said they do not need to come to faith in Messiah to escape hell. That is the error Hagee believes.  I find it atrocious.

Okay, refresh my memory - it's been awhile since I have posted here, so please give me the specific posts so I can re-read them. As for Mr. Hagee, you are saying that he believes that people don't need to believe in Jesus Christ to escape hell, is that what you are saying?
From what I understand of Mr. Hagee, he doesn't believe JEWISH people need to believe in Christ Jesus for salvation.  He believes they are saved because He calls them His people.  That is false.  No man comes to the Father except through belief in Jesus Christ.

And what is this belief? Is it saying yes I believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah and then continuing to live a sinful life? Or is it simply living a Christlike life, yet not considering oneself a Christian? Which one matters most?

So the Jew who lives a Christlike life, yet remains a faithful Jew is doomed?

Offline MeMyself

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #84 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 12:46:45 »
And what is this belief? Is it saying yes I believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah and then continuing to live a sinful life? Or is it simply living a Christlike life, yet not considering oneself a Christian? Which one matters most?

So the Jew who lives a Christlike life, yet remains a faithful Jew is doomed?

If the Jew refuses to acknowledge Christ as God, the Son of God, or Savior, yes, they are doomed!  Our works do not save us!  Salvation is a free gift of God not of works so that no man may boast!

When we surrender to Christ, God begins a good work of refinement in us...we will all be on different levels of maturity and conviction.  What looks like a sinful life to you might simply be a new babe in Christ who hasn't yet learned the ways of God and whose skills are less refined, but have patience, pray for them and refuse to judge them..because who KNOWS what others view your walk to look like.


Offline Ladonia

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #85 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 13:12:05 »
And what is this belief? Is it saying yes I believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah and then continuing to live a sinful life? Or is it simply living a Christlike life, yet not considering oneself a Christian? Which one matters most?

So the Jew who lives a Christlike life, yet remains a faithful Jew is doomed?

If the Jew refuses to acknowledge Christ as God, the Son of God, or Savior, yes, they are doomed!  Our works do not save us!  Salvation is a free gift of God not of works so that no man may boast!

When we surrender to Christ, God begins a good work of refinement in us...we will all be on different levels of maturity and conviction.  What looks like a sinful life to you might simply be a new babe in Christ who hasn't yet learned the ways of God and whose skills are less refined, but have patience, pray for them and refuse to judge them..because who KNOWS what others view your walk to look like.



Salvation, as you say is "a free gift of God" and maybe God will give it to the person who has lived a Christlike life.

Jesus said: "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

In the end only God will make the call.

Offline DaveW

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #86 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 13:13:06 »
You mean Gregree is making the same mistake, don't you?
No not really.  It was YOU who said they do not need to come to faith in Messiah to escape hell. That is the error Hagee believes.  I find it atrocious.
Okay, refresh my memory - it's been awhile since I have posted here, so please give me the specific posts so I can re-read them. As for Mr. Hagee, you are saying that he believes that people don't need to believe in Jesus Christ to escape hell, is that what you are saying?

It was what you said in post 76.  IT sounds like you are saying that you do NOT believe that a Jew who does not confess Yeshua/Jesus as Lord is consigned to hell.

Hagee believes that the Mosaic covenant still covers the Jews and they have no need for the NT Gospel as they are already saved under Moses. So he actively tries to discourage Jewish evangelism.

Big mistake that could send millions to eternal destruction.

Offline DaveW

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #87 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 13:17:38 »
And what is this belief? Is it saying yes I believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah and then continuing to live a sinful life? Or is it simply living a Christlike life, yet not considering oneself a Christian? Which one matters most?
Neither. Hagee's view is that Jews should not hear the gospel.  They are already "in" because they are born Jewish and are covered by the Mosaic covenant.

BTW, one CANNOT live a "Christlike life" without faith and the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling them. So that is not possible to someone who does not confess Yeshua as Lord and live accordingly.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #88 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 13:34:19 »
You mean Gregree is making the same mistake, don't you?
No not really.  It was YOU who said they do not need to come to faith in Messiah to escape hell. That is the error Hagee believes.  I find it atrocious.
Okay, refresh my memory - it's been awhile since I have posted here, so please give me the specific posts so I can re-read them. As for Mr. Hagee, you are saying that he believes that people don't need to believe in Jesus Christ to escape hell, is that what you are saying?

It was what you said in post 76.  IT sounds like you are saying that you do NOT believe that a Jew who does not confess Yeshua/Jesus as Lord is consigned to hell.

Hagee believes that the Mosaic covenant still covers the Jews and they have no need for the NT Gospel as they are already saved under Moses. So he actively tries to discourage Jewish evangelism.

Big mistake that could send millions to eternal destruction.

Yes, that is what I believe. Now, I wouldn't go so far as Mr. Hagee and actively discourage Jews from believing in Jesus  as the Messiah though.  But for me, life is much easier believing that he is the Messiah, that we have an advocate in Him, and that we Gentiles have been reconciled with God the Father. Living life within the confines of the over 600 Old Testament requirements would be pretty tough.

Buy the way,  I disagree that one cannot life a Christlike life on their own. I think that this is entirely possible.
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 13:36:36 by Ladonia »

Offline Slave of God

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #89 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 13:46:00 »
Quote
I disagree that one cannot life a Christlike life on their own. I think that this is entirely possible.

That is not what the Catholic Church teaches.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #90 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 14:08:20 »
Quote
I disagree that one cannot life a Christlike life on their own. I think that this is entirely possible.

That is not what the Catholic Church teaches.

Quote
I disagree that one cannot life a Christlike life on their own. I think that this is entirely possible.

That is not what the Catholic Church teaches.

It's my own personal opinion - rightly or wrongly.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #91 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 14:49:11 »

Salvation, as you say is "a free gift of God" and maybe God will give it to the person who has lived a Christlike life.


I don't say it, the Word of God does.  And, no it is not earned by being good, kind, patient, obedient, etc.

Dave is right.  There is no way someone can be Christlike and reject Him at the same time!  Its an oxymoron.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #92 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 14:51:21 »
Quote
I disagree that one cannot life a Christlike life on their own. I think that this is entirely possible.

That is not what the Catholic Church teaches.

Quote
I disagree that one cannot life a Christlike life on their own. I think that this is entirely possible.

That is not what the Catholic Church teaches.

It's my own personal opinion - rightly or wrongly.

Well, wrongly it is.

The Word of God says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, that the wages of that sin is death, and that there are none righteous not one.

Christ is the only way to the Father. 

Offline Catholica

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #93 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 15:00:03 »
@ Winsome:
@ Catholica:

The 18 year old boy would be a born again child of the Creator God Who Gave His only Son as a ransom to save all those who would believe in the One whom He sent. Amen

In other words he would be the same as the disciples of the early church and those who claim salvation in the triumphant, resurrected Lord Jesus in this forum, right now.

He would not, like you two, be wasting his time and talents promoting a brick and mortar organization full of paganism, and traditions that are built on sand.
He would not be found in a special garment, or vesement to indicate his rank to the world.
He'd have no use for cathedrals, or thrones which would only confuse him as to who'd want to occupy them.
He would realize God is for him, and Jesus is in Him, and he lives eternally while waiting to go to heaven.
This would be the topic of his conversation, and this would be the beginning and the end of his religion.

Perhaps, but those are all just bells and whistles.  You have no response to the practices of religion that he would be doing, which are the heart of religion.  Not vestments, not buildings or any of that stuff.

If asked the question; neither of you can say if you're going to heaven or not because your church and your god has left you like orphans in this world, without hope.

To have hope means not to presume, but to trust based on promised.  To say one is going to heaven is not to hope.  It is to presume.  As Catholics, we have hope.  Authentic hope.

Here's a few more things our boy may want to tell you later.
Jesus is no longer an infant on Mary's lap.    We already knew that.
He's not third in line as mediator below Mary.     We already knew that.
He doesn't sit and watch as Mary hears our prayers.    False, the Bible doesn't say that.
Mary cannot hear anyones prayers.    False, the Bible doesn't say that.
Mary is dead and cannot interceded for anyone to God.    False, the Bible doesn't say that.
Mary could have been any number of woman.    False, the Bible doesn't say that.
Mary is not part of the Triune Godhead.     We already knew that.
Worship of Mary is idolatry.     We already knew that.  We don't worship Mary.
Having other god's, like Mary, before Him is a violation of the first commandment.    We don't hold Mary to be a god.
Those statues of Jesus and Mary, etc. are a violation of the second commandment.     False.

Transubstantiation is a tested and proven lie.    False, the Bible doesn't say that.
Jesus was a body prepared by God to be sacrificed once and for all.      We already knew that.
The Mass is a mockery of the finished work of Jesus on the cross.    False, the Bible doesn't say that.
The mass is a denial of the resurrection, and the living Lord Jesus.     False, the Bible doesn't say that.
Consuming a wafer and drinking some wine then claiming to have received the Lord Jesus is blatant contempt of Jesus own explanation of the metaphor, John 6:63.     False, the Bible doesn't say that.
Celebration of the mass negates the entire New Testament and, at best, would only leave a man forgiven of his sins but not filled with the Holy Spirit,
as per the resurrection and Pentecost, therefore NOT born-again, therefore not able to enter the Kingdom of God.     False, the Bible doesn't say that.

This "boy" seems to be you(?)

Offline Ladonia

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #94 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 15:11:28 »

Salvation, as you say is "a free gift of God" and maybe God will give it to the person who has lived a Christlike life.


I don't say it, the Word of God does.  And, no it is not earned by being good, kind, patient, obedient, etc.

Dave is right.  There is no way someone can be Christlike and reject Him at the same time!  Its an oxymoron.


Ghandi was not Christlike? I think he was very Christlike.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #95 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 15:24:35 »

Salvation, as you say is "a free gift of God" and maybe God will give it to the person who has lived a Christlike life.


I don't say it, the Word of God does.  And, no it is not earned by being good, kind, patient, obedient, etc.

Dave is right.  There is no way someone can be Christlike and reject Him at the same time!  Its an oxymoron.


Ghandi was not Christlike? I think he was very Christlike.

How so?

He could have looked good to human eyes, but God looks at the heart and if his heart rejected Christ, there is NO WAY he could be Christ like!  Christ's likeness comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit!  Satan is the master counterfeiter...goodness, humility, kindness all counterfeit if not lead by Christ. They get a person nowhere!  They cannot bring glory to God and that is what the aim of the Christ like believer is!

Offline Ladonia

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #96 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 15:35:42 »

Salvation, as you say is "a free gift of God" and maybe God will give it to the person who has lived a Christlike life.


I don't say it, the Word of God does.  And, no it is not earned by being good, kind, patient, obedient, etc.

Dave is right.  There is no way someone can be Christlike and reject Him at the same time!  Its an oxymoron.


Ghandi was not Christlike? I think he was very Christlike.

How so?

He could have looked good to human eyes, but God looks at the heart and if his heart rejected Christ, there is NO WAY he could be Christ like!  Christ's likeness comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit!  Satan is the master counterfeiter...goodness, humility, kindness all counterfeit if not lead by Christ. They get a person nowhere!  They cannot bring glory to God and that is what the aim of the Christ like believer is!

Glad to know you know what was inside Ghandi's heart, but actions speak louder than words. The man didn't pick up a rifle to drive the British from India, he carried a walking stick. He didn't side with the Muslims or Hindus when they rioted and were killing each other, he fasted and prayed. He never sought to judge people, but accepted everyone as his brother, whether they were Hindu, Muslim, or Christian. He loved his enemies as per Jesus's command. Satan did not inhabit this man, only God's loving spirit did. Like Jesus says: "By their fruits ye shall know them". Tell me, where is the rotten fruit this man produced?
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 15:42:19 by Ladonia »

Offline Helen

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #97 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 15:43:01 »
Just because it was brought up:

Although Gandhi may have looked like a saint, in an outfit designed to represent the poor of rural India, he was above all a wily operator and tactician. Having lived in Britain and South Africa, he was familiar with the system that he was attempting to subvert. He knew how to undermine the British, when to press an advantage and when to withdraw. Little wonder that one British provincial governor described Mr Gandhi as being as “cunning as a cartload of monkeys”.

from http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9840076/The-truth-about-Mahatma-Gandhi-he-was-a-wily-operator-not-Indias-smiling-saint.html

Offline Ladonia

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #98 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 15:49:30 »
Just because it was brought up:

Although Gandhi may have looked like a saint, in an outfit designed to represent the poor of rural India, he was above all a wily operator and tactician. Having lived in Britain and South Africa, he was familiar with the system that he was attempting to subvert. He knew how to undermine the British, when to press an advantage and when to withdraw. Little wonder that one British provincial governor described Mr Gandhi as being as “cunning as a cartload of monkeys”.

from http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9840076/The-truth-about-Mahatma-Gandhi-he-was-a-wily-operator-not-Indias-smiling-saint.html


So what was Ghandi supposed to do, remain silent, do nothing and allow the British to continue controlling India forever? He did a masterful job of getting the British to leave without a major war that could have killed millions of people.

Offline Helen

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #99 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 15:57:56 »
Hey, read the article.  I didn't write it!

Offline chosenone

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #100 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 15:58:54 »
Ghandi wasnt saved, so what does it matter what he did or didn't do? There are many people who do nice things, but unless they know Jesus, what good will it do them? Works don't save anyone..

Offline Gregree

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #101 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 16:16:32 »

Catholica said:  This "boy" seems to be you(?)
[/quote]

LOL, it might as well be.
You keep on keeping on, and we'll see who meets who in the afterlife.

Take care.
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 19:02:33 by Gregree »

Offline Gregree

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #102 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 16:28:33 »
ladonia said:  You can believe all you want about the final destiny of your mother and Jewish grandmother, but I believe God's mercy is infinite and we cannot comprehend it with our finite minds. This is where the current  Christian teaching you now receive is in error. But anyway, as regards the Jewish people, so according to what you believe and despite the fact that the Jews are God's chosen people and the covenant with them remains in force, they are all consigned to the fires of hell because they don't believe in Christ as the Messiah? No, I don't believe that for a moment.
[/quote]

I thought the comparison of my mothers unbelief to that of my grandmothers Jewish belief, (in other words waiting for the Messiah), would be a mutual point of clarity, but your subjective theology won't even allow that.  And that's the problem freind.

So, thanks for the passionate responses but you're fighting fire with gasoline. The arguments you use today are going to testify against you later, at the judgement seat, so be ready.

Take care.
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 19:04:07 by Gregree »

Offline Catholica

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #103 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 16:32:31 »
Just because it was brought up:

Although Gandhi may have looked like a saint, in an outfit designed to represent the poor of rural India, he was above all a wily operator and tactician. Having lived in Britain and South Africa, he was familiar with the system that he was attempting to subvert. He knew how to undermine the British, when to press an advantage and when to withdraw. Little wonder that one British provincial governor described Mr Gandhi as being as “cunning as a cartload of monkeys”.

from http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9840076/The-truth-about-Mahatma-Gandhi-he-was-a-wily-operator-not-Indias-smiling-saint.html


So what was Ghandi supposed to do, remain silent, do nothing and allow the British to continue controlling India forever? He did a masterful job of getting the British to leave without a major war that could have killed millions of people.


Not to argue for or against Ghandi, but isn't that what Christ called us to do, be "wise as serpents and innocent as doves"?

Offline Ladonia

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #104 on: Wed Dec 04, 2013 - 16:53:23 »
You can believe all you want about the final destiny of your mother and Jewish grandmother, but I believe God's mercy is infinite and we cannot comprehend it with our finite minds. This is where the current  Christian teaching you now receive is in error. But anyway, as regards the Jewish people, so according to what you believe and despite the fact that the Jews are God's chosen people and the covenant with them remains in force, they are all consigned to the fires of hell because they don't believe in Christ as the Messiah? No, I don't believe that for a moment.

I thought the comparison of my mothers unbelief to that of my grandmother Jewish belief, (in other words waiting for the Messiah), would be a mutual point of clarity, but your subjective theology won't even allow that.  And that's the problem freind.

So, thanks for the passionate responses but you're fighting fire with gasoline. The arguments you use today are going to testify against you later, at the judgement seat, so be ready.

Take care.
[/quote]

My many sins are much more than these few words here, with some of them being quite more serious. But I have asked for and received forgiveness through Jesus Christ, who remains my advocate with the Father.  As for Judgement Day, my testimony will be taken, (even though God already knows everything) and I am fully prepared to meet my fate in this regard as I am powerless to undo the things that I have done.   

« Last Edit: Thu Dec 05, 2013 - 00:13:33 by Ladonia »