Author Topic: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"  (Read 8013 times)

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Offline AnnaM

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"Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« on: Tue Oct 08, 2013 - 09:01:59 »
AUSTIN, Texas (RNS) The Christian mission field is a “magnet” for sexual abusers, Boz Tchividjian, a Liberty University law professor who investigates abuse said Thursday (Sept. 26) to a room of journalists. While comparing evangelicals to Catholics on abuse response, ”I think we are worse,” he said at the Religion Newswriters Association conference, saying too many evangelicals had “sacrificed the souls” of young victims.

“Protestants can be very arrogant when pointing to Catholics,” said Tchividjian, a grandson of evangelist Billy Graham and executive director of Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment (GRACE), which has investigated sex abuse allegations.

Earlier this summer, GRACE spearheaded an online petition decrying the “silence” and “inattention” of evangelical leaders to sexual abuse in their churches.

Mission agencies, “where abuse is most prevalent,” often don’t report abuse because they fear being barred from working in foreign countries, he said. Abusers will get sent home and might join another agency. Of known data from abuse cases, 25 percent are repeat cases, he said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/01/protestant-sex-abuse-boz-tchividijian_n_4019347.html?view=print&comm_ref=false

Offline MeMyself

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #1 on: Tue Oct 08, 2013 - 09:07:25 »
No matter WHO is more at fault, it is a terrible thing that has been done! My heart goes out to the victims!

k-pappy

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #2 on: Tue Oct 08, 2013 - 09:38:31 »
I am not sure which is least surprising...

Another hate-filled attack against Christians from the Huffington Post

OR

Another hate-filled attack against Protestants from AnnaM

====

Don't get me wrong, abuse of any kind, in any venue, is a horrible affront.  Using it as an excuse to denigrate your enemies is even worse.

Offline FireSword

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #3 on: Tue Oct 08, 2013 - 09:51:22 »
These type of things seem to be happening at an alarming rate. Maybe they should consider capital punishment, such as a public hanging for the crime, this will deter any would be criminals by striking fear into their hearts of the extremity of their crime. I think most are delusional as to the extent of their crime. A public execution would bring back the reality of this crime to the human conscience, that has become so liberal and uncaring. Also there should be heavier punishments for false accusers who do lie and bring destruction upon the world with their lying tongues.
Perhaps the pope should go on a witch hunt, round them all up and execute them all, while the children watch  ::eatingpopcorn:







HRoberson

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #4 on: Tue Oct 08, 2013 - 09:58:01 »
As though Evangelicals have a global, monolithic organization with a central headquarters in a sovereign state orchestrating a shell game with pedofiles.

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #4 on: Tue Oct 08, 2013 - 09:58:01 »



Offline FireSword

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #5 on: Tue Oct 08, 2013 - 10:13:38 »
As though Evangelicals have a global, monolithic organization with a central headquarters in a sovereign state orchestrating a shell game with pedofiles.

Got to be careful with deceivers. I read how in the rise of the Nazi party the gestapo etc would set up catholic priests for paedophile scandals, they would also send adverts mocking these priests on tv.
Propoganda is a powerful tool to incite hatred against particular groups by associating hideous crimes with such.
It's important only the true criminals get caught and not to cause undue accusations towards innocents, that destroys trust and breaks down society.



Offline chosenone

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #6 on: Tue Oct 08, 2013 - 10:36:35 »
I am not sure which is least surprising...

Another hate-filled attack against Christians from the Huffington Post

OR

Another hate-filled attack against Protestants from AnnaM

====

Don't get me wrong, abuse of any kind, in any venue, is a horrible affront.  Using it as an excuse to denigrate your enemies is even worse.


 Yep. Must admit though, I have never heard a of a protestant pastor committing child abuse. I am sure it happens occasionally.

Victor08

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #7 on: Tue Oct 08, 2013 - 12:12:10 »
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/valerie-tarico/the-protestant-clergy-sex_b_740853.html
Valerie Tarico
Posted: 09/28/10 05:28 PM ET

One of the most striking aspects of the Protestant clergy sex abuse pattern is that most people don't realize it is a pattern. The Catholic Church has taken a well deserved beating in the courts and in the court of public opinion as former altar boys, orphans and ordinary parishioners come forward with appalling stories of sex abuse. Yet equally egregious violations by Protestant clergy fail to generate the same level of outrage. Why?

You might answer that the problems in the Catholic Church are uniquely widespread, but that would be the wrong answer. Last week's Eddie Long scandal, in which one of the nation's most politically connected and homophobic mega-ministers was accused of strong-arming g-a-y sex out of teens, was just one tip of an enormous Protestant iceberg. The news monthly Freethought Today has a regular feature called "Black Collar Crime Blotter," typically a two-page sampler of fraud, theft, and sexual abuse taken from the media across the country. They just turned their archive over to the Kinsey Institute. A website called ClergyGoneWild.com provides links to recent crime stories, including child abuse (206 articles) and internet solicitation (18).

This problem is nothing new. The first book on clergy sex abuse in this country, Betrayal of Trust, was published in 1988. The perception that Catholic priests are overrepresented among offenders is correct. They do offend at a higher rate. But because this country is predominantly Protestant, more children are abused by Protestant ministers than by Catholic priests. In 1990, the Freedom from Religion Foundation issued a study on pedophilia by clergy. At that time, two clergy per week were being arrested in North America for sex crimes against children. Fifty-eight percent of them were Protestant.

HRoberson

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #8 on: Tue Oct 08, 2013 - 14:32:15 »
As though Evangelicals have a global, monolithic organization with a central headquarters in a sovereign state orchestrating a shell game with pedofiles.

Got to be careful with deceivers. I read how in the rise of the Nazi party the gestapo etc would set up catholic priests for paedophile scandals, they would also send adverts mocking these priests on tv.
Propoganda is a powerful tool to incite hatred against particular groups by associating hideous crimes with such.
It's important only the true criminals get caught and not to cause undue accusations towards innocents, that destroys trust and breaks down society.



but what's the fun in that?

Offline FireSword

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #9 on: Tue Oct 08, 2013 - 14:35:55 »
Being arrested is not in the same league as convicted. There is also wide spread paranoia by people etc who suspect all kinds and get people arrested.

Offline FireSword

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #10 on: Tue Oct 08, 2013 - 14:38:08 »
As though Evangelicals have a global, monolithic organization with a central headquarters in a sovereign state orchestrating a shell game with pedofiles.

Got to be careful with deceivers. I read how in the rise of the Nazi party the gestapo etc would set up catholic priests for paedophile scandals, they would also send adverts mocking these priests on tv.
Propoganda is a powerful tool to incite hatred against particular groups by associating hideous crimes with such.
It's important only the true criminals get caught and not to cause undue accusations towards innocents, that destroys trust and breaks down society.



but what's the fun in that?

I don't understand?

Offline Red Baker

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #11 on: Tue Oct 08, 2013 - 17:07:45 »
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/valerie-tarico/the-protestant-clergy-sex_b_740853.html
Valerie Tarico
Posted: 09/28/10 05:28 PM ET

One of the most striking aspects of the Protestant clergy sex abuse pattern is that most people don't realize it is a pattern. The Catholic Church has taken a well deserved beating in the courts and in the court of public opinion as former altar boys, orphans and ordinary parishioners come forward with appalling stories of sex abuse. Yet equally egregious violations by Protestant clergy fail to generate the same level of outrage. Why?

You might answer that the problems in the Catholic Church are uniquely widespread, but that would be the wrong answer. Last week's Eddie Long scandal, in which one of the nation's most politically connected and homophobic mega-ministers was accused of strong-arming g-a-y sex out of teens, was just one tip of an enormous Protestant iceberg. The news monthly Freethought Today has a regular feature called "Black Collar Crime Blotter," typically a two-page sampler of fraud, theft, and sexual abuse taken from the media across the country. They just turned their archive over to the Kinsey Institute. A website called ClergyGoneWild.com provides links to recent crime stories, including child abuse (206 articles) and internet solicitation (18).

This problem is nothing new. The first book on clergy sex abuse in this country, Betrayal of Trust, was published in 1988. The perception that Catholic priests are overrepresented among offenders is correct. They do offend at a higher rate. But because this country is predominantly Protestant, more children are abused by Protestant ministers than by Catholic priests. In 1990, the Freedom from Religion Foundation issued a study on pedophilia by clergy. At that time, two clergy per week were being arrested in North America for sex crimes against children. Fifty-eight percent of them were Protestant.


I agree with your article.  Besides, many (and I used the word carefully, because I do not consider true believers Protestant in the sense that the RCC use the word) Protestants ministers are guilty of adultery and other gross sins.  Only Sodomy is a great sin within the RCC community, but that does not mean, that there are not godly men and women among them, for I know some that are, even though I strongly disagree with their doctrines. 

RB

Offline comfy

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #12 on: Thu Oct 17, 2013 - 08:35:18 »
These type of things seem to be happening at an alarming rate.
I see the possibility that this stuff has been going on for centuries, but now it is reported more, now that we have media that can spread stuff about this, efficiently.

Also, I notice when the Catholic predator priest problem was made so public: after President Bush came into office and he could have been a formidable ally, as president, along with Cardinal Law against abortion. Cardinal Law became quite a special media focus. But, as I say, the publicity about predators posing as pastors did not become so thorough, until after Cardinal Law and George Bush were in power. So, I consider . . . may be the media was picking and choosing when they did so much publicizing, acting with their strategy to defend abortion.

Not to mention > if the liberal media people care so much about children, why do they so easily accept the attacking and killing of unborn children? And why are they so ok with activists going around schools and promoting perversion and forcing such subjects on the minds of young children? This, too, is  violating children . . . in their minds > calling attention to this stuff, even forcing such subject matter on a child.

Offline DaveW

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #13 on: Thu Oct 17, 2013 - 08:42:11 »
Yep. Must admit though, I have never heard a of a protestant pastor committing child abuse. I am sure it happens occasionally.

I have.  Along with plenty of affairs. It goes back decades.

Can any of us forget the revelations of the mid 1980s and 90s concerning Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, et al?

Or Michael English, Sandi Patty, Amy Grant, et al? (in the christian music industry)

Offline comfy

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re: be accountable; and faith is not blind trust
« Reply #14 on: Thu Oct 17, 2013 - 09:10:47 »
Maybe they should consider capital punishment, such as a public hanging for the crime, this will deter any would be criminals by striking fear into their hearts of the extremity of their crime. I think most are delusional as to the extent of their crime. A public execution would bring back the reality of this crime to the human conscience, that has become so liberal and uncaring. Also there should be heavier punishments for false accusers who do lie and bring destruction upon the world with their lying tongues.
Perhaps the pope should go on a witch hunt, round them all up and execute them all, while the children watch  ::eatingpopcorn:
Ones say "all" sexual predators have been victims of sexual abuse. I can see why. The victims have been exposed to such behavior so they know there is such a thing, and then ones . . . not all . . . can somehow get ideas from what has been done to them and then think this is something they can do and even want to do. And if the predator never was seen getting arrested and punished . . . a victim can suppose that what the predator did was not really a big deal.

And the victim possibly is never carefully told how wrong it was for the predator to do that . . . not to mention how, often enough, others may not believe the child, or they are too ashamed to deal with it. And, in some number of cases, their shame is possibly because they feel it was their responsibility to keep the child safe and they deep-down-inside do not want to admit to the child that such an awful thing is so evil, and they can have shame especially if they helped encourage the child to trust the predator. So, they can knowingly or unknowingly be trying to cover up for themselves.

And so the child sees no obvious condemnation of such behavior. Plus, they see no one taking responsibility, being an example (1 Peter 5:3) of being accountable, admitting to how it was wrong and how they did fail the child by looking the other way, on purpose, or by making an idol of certain religious leaders so they put them above question, or they helped cause the evil because they could not tell the difference between such evil people and ones who they should have their children trusting.

And, "of course", there are cases of people not believing the child. If this happens, this can help the child to think easy it is to get away with being a predator. And this can help to tempt the child to later copy-cat what the predator did to the child.

However . . . with Jesus our Shepherd, we can hear His voice (John 10:1-30), and His voice does not have us trusting the wrong people! Jesus makes us able to tell the difference.

And, clearly, in different religious groups, there are even high-up leaders who have actually evaluated and even ordained such deeply ruined people, and those even high-up leaders were not able to tell the difference between a predator and a person who is an example of Jesus' way of loving. So, there are high-up religious leaders and parents who have been part of the problem. Even large groups of church members were able to fool their own selves, for even years, into thinking their pulpit predators were real priests of God's own love.

But this problem has not been dealt with openly and effectively, as far as I know > so many are pointing at predators and leaders, and not dealing with how they could so dangerously fool their own selves. But I would dare consider that if a pope or cardinal or bishop or seminary evaluator can't tell the difference between a predator and a person of God's love, then such a person is not qualified to be trusted to care for Jesus' sheep.

Even the "sheep" of Jesus can tell the difference between Jesus' voice and a predator; our Shepherd's voice does not have leaders ordaining predators! Plus, sheep have the sense of smell > they can smell a predator. God's love has God's sense. So, we sheep must not try to use leaders as our excuse for going along with wrong people > "Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) With our Father and Jesus our Shepherd, we can test reliably about who it is good to trust and how to trust. So, Christian faith is not blind trusting; we have God's light of love so we can see people right.

Offline Gregree

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #15 on: Sat Nov 30, 2013 - 19:22:27 »
@ AnnaM:

"Boz Tchividjian, a Liberty University law professor who investigates abuse said Thursday (Sept. 26) to a room of journalists. While comparing evangelicals to Catholics on abuse response, ”I think we are worse,” he said..."
I think a lot of things and they aren't worth a hill of beans without proof.

“Protestants can be very arrogant when pointing to Catholics"...” said Tchividjian, a grandson of evangelist Billy Graham"
Billy Graham's what, atheist, satan worshiping,  papal like, agnostic, son of one of his kids?  Name dropping; goes to show how weak this provocation is.
 
"GRACE spearheaded an online petition decrying the “silence” and “inattention” of evangelical leaders to sexual abuse in their churches."
Yes, groups with clever names do all kinds of things as a precedent in trade for power and to further accomplish some other agenda they have, in this case they're spinning their wheels on Christians with little to no evidence, but a shamed, wealthy Roman church to back them.

"Of known data from abuse cases, 25 percent are repeat cases, he said."
Yes, "of known data" we're adding assumption all the more!!!

Funny how for all you said, you didn't say anything at all. Yet your signature prayer speaks volumes about your spiritual poverty, blindness, and destiny apart from God.
Instead of picking fights with Protestants and the like, over issues you know nothing about, why not educate yourself in the New Testament?

Question: If you put a child of 8 years old on a desert island with only a bible to read, and providing he took to it and obeyed it, when you rescued this child after 10 years, what do you suppose you'd find him preaching and practising as his religion with all it's trappings: Catholicism, Buddhism, Mormonism, Muslim, or the Person of Jesus Christ in a 1-1 relationship?


Offline winsome

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #16 on: Sun Dec 01, 2013 - 09:13:14 »

Question: If you put a child of 8 years old on a desert island with only a bible to read, and providing he took to it and obeyed it, when you rescued this child after 10 years, what do you suppose you'd find him preaching and practising as his religion with all it's trappings: Catholicism, Buddhism, Mormonism, Muslim, or the Person of Jesus Christ in a 1-1 relationship?


You wouldn't get any of the above.

That just shows that the Bible is incomplete and that an 8 yr old child needs a lot more than jst the ability to read.

Your premise is basically stupid and unbiblical.
« Last Edit: Sun Dec 01, 2013 - 09:19:10 by winsome »

Offline Helen

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #17 on: Sun Dec 01, 2013 - 12:36:59 »

Question: If you put a child of 8 years old on a desert island with only a bible to read, and providing he took to it and obeyed it, when you rescued this child after 10 years, what do you suppose you'd find him preaching and practising as his religion with all it's trappings: Catholicism, Buddhism, Mormonism, Muslim, or the Person of Jesus Christ in a 1-1 relationship?


I totally disagree with Winsome here.  First of all, the child would be 18 at the end.  Second, I think it is an excellent point regarding the sufficiency of Scripture and the ease with which the basic message of salvation through Christ and Christ alone can be understood.

You wouldn't get any of the above.

That just shows that the Bible is incomplete and that an 8 yr old child needs a lot more than jst the ability to read.

Your premise is basically stupid and unbiblical.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #18 on: Sun Dec 01, 2013 - 12:44:14 »

Question: If you put a child of 8 years old on a desert island with only a bible to read, and providing he took to it and obeyed it, when you rescued this child after 10 years, what do you suppose you'd find him preaching and practising as his religion with all it's trappings: Catholicism, Buddhism, Mormonism, Muslim, or the Person of Jesus Christ in a 1-1 relationship?


You wouldn't get any of the above.

That just shows that the Bible is incomplete and that an 8 yr old child needs a lot more than jst the ability to read.

Your premise is basically stupid and unbiblical.

How arrogant! The Bible is NOT incomplete! God's Word is alive and active and does not come back void!  A child left to read it, as they grow up and mature would find the way to salvation and relationship with Christ!

« Last Edit: Sun Dec 01, 2013 - 12:51:49 by MeMyself »

Offline Helen

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #19 on: Sun Dec 01, 2013 - 12:57:14 »
The program really messed up my post!  Winsome said You wouldn't get any of the above.

That just shows that the Bible is incomplete and that an 8 yr old child needs a lot more than jst the ability to read.

Your premise is basically stupid and unbiblical.


My response was: "I totally disagree with Winsome here.  First of all, the child would be 18 at the end.  Second, I think it is an excellent point regarding the sufficiency of Scripture and the ease with which the basic message of salvation through Christ and Christ alone can be understood."



Offline chosenone

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #20 on: Sun Dec 01, 2013 - 13:42:05 »
The program really messed up my post!  Winsome said You wouldn't get any of the above.

That just shows that the Bible is incomplete and that an 8 yr old child needs a lot more than jst the ability to read.

Your premise is basically stupid and unbiblical.


My response was: "I totally disagree with Winsome here.  First of all, the child would be 18 at the end.  Second, I think it is an excellent point regarding the sufficiency of Scripture and the ease with which the basic message of salvation through Christ and Christ alone can be understood."





Yes, and also he would have the Holy Spirit guiding him.

Offline winsome

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #21 on: Sun Dec 01, 2013 - 14:00:36 »
The program really messed up my post!  Winsome said You wouldn't get any of the above.

That just shows that the Bible is incomplete and that an 8 yr old child needs a lot more than jst the ability to read.

Your premise is basically stupid and unbiblical.


My response was: "I totally disagree with Winsome here.  First of all, the child would be 18 at the end.  Second, I think it is an excellent point regarding the sufficiency of Scripture and the ease with which the basic message of salvation through Christ and Christ alone can be understood."




The Bible is not a complete record of God’s revelation to us (and you do not even use a complete Bible). The Bible itself tells us that it is incomplete (Jn 20:20, Jn 21:25, 2Thess 2:15)

A child of 8 would not mature alone on a desert island with just a Bible. That is why children need to go to school and be taught whatever they need to learn and have the company of others.

Jesus never suggested to the apostles that they write a book and leave to people to work it out for themselves. He told them to go and preach the gospel, teaching people all he had commanded them. That was the way the apostles passed on the gospel. They taught.

Just look at the 30,000 Protestant denominations, all because people thought they could word it out for themselves and not by listening to the Church that Jesus founded to preserve his truths and pass them on.

Paul explains how this is to be done.

Paul writes to Timothy "Hold to the standard of sound teaching that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus." (2Tim 1:13) Paul has given Timothy sound teaching

Guard the good treasure entrusted to you, with the help of the Holy Spirit living in us.” (2Tim 1:14)
Timothy is to be a guardian of the truth that has been entrusted to him. He is to do this with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Then Paul instructs Timothy to pass this precious treasure of teaching on to others.
“You then, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus; and what you have heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will be able to teach others as well.” (2Tim 2:1-2)

Timothy in his turn is to entrust what he has been given to faithful people. Not just preaching to others but to pass on in trust this teaching to others he can be sure will guard it in their turn. Then they will be able to teach others as well.
 
Thus we have four generations – Paul – Timothy – those to whom Timothy entrusts the teaching – those who they pass it on to in turn.

 Note this is all oral teaching. There is no suggestion that Timothy just passes on documents to others and tells them to work it out for themselves.
 

Offline Helen

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #22 on: Sun Dec 01, 2013 - 15:02:34 »
When anyone disagrees with what is in the Bible, I choose Bible.  It's really that simple.  We are saved by faith through grace; Jesus is God; He has not lost one yet.  Faith in Jesus as Lord, God, Savior, Creator, Judge -- that is now and always has been enough for salvation.  Once He changes you, you are His.  We have a choice of masters:  Either a slave of sin or a slave of righteousness.  Jesus is my righteousness.  I choose Him -- directly, simply, completely.  And I am His. 

Offline Gregree

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #23 on: Sun Dec 01, 2013 - 20:07:49 »
 Note this is all oral teaching. There is no suggestion that Timothy just passes on documents to others and tells them to work it out for themselves.
[/quote]

You do understand the New Testament was first taught by the Apostles by mouth because there was no such written New Testament like we have today, and that you can quote yourself, in complete trust.

Your quotes were typical denials of point #one above, but this one, "John 21:25 And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen", takes the cake for intellectual dishonesty on your part.

You want to assert that the Holy Spirit left out the entire three ring circus act performed at every sunday mass?
And you feel this is logical and true because why?

Has it ever occured to you while you're reading the parts of the bible you agree with, the other stuff you skip over is contradicting your whole religion, and that's why your mass is not in the bible? The Apostles did not institute seven sacraments and pass them on to anyone!

You quoted the Apostle John a couple of times so I trust you believe him at his word. Let me ask you to read the following passage from his one and only Gospel
chapter six.

Please tell me if you don't comprehend the salvation message being spoken by Jesus' own mouth, and that our 18 year old boy would have read too. Would our island child be searching for a eucharist or a Person to receive?


John 6:30-63                                                   New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

30 So they said to him, “What sign are you going to give us then, so that we may see it and believe you? What work are you performing? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” 32 Then Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which[a] comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away; 38 for I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 This is indeed the will of my Father, that all who see the Son and believe in him may have eternal life; and I will raise them up on the last day.”

41 Then the Jews began to complain about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not complain among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly, I tell you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. 56 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever.” 59 He said these things while he was teaching in the synagogue at Capernaum.

The Words of Eternal Life

60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This teaching is difficult; who can accept it?” 61 But Jesus, being aware that his disciples were complaining about it, said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.


Offline winsome

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #24 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 04:44:32 »
Quote from:
Note this is all oral teaching. There is no suggestion that Timothy just passes on documents to others and tells them to work it out for themselves.

You do understand the New Testament was first taught by the Apostles by mouth because there was no such written New Testament like we have today, and that you can quote yourself, in complete trust.

Yes we can trust scripture. But that doesn’t negate what I said about Jesus telling the apostles to preach and teach. Neither he nor the apostles told anyone to just read scripture and work it out for themselves. Quite the opposite.
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Mt 23:1-3).

Jesus is saying that the scribes and Pharisees have the authority to teach (they sit in the chair of Moses) and the people should listen to their teaching. He does not tell them to read scripture and work it out for themselves.

When Jesus teaches he does so on his own authority not scriptures, though of course he quotes from scrioture.

Your quotes were typical denials of point #one above, but this one, "John 21:25 And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen", takes the cake for intellectual dishonesty on your part.

Rather than just insult me please explain why you think what I said is intellectual dishonesty. Did you not say above that we can trust scripture? Are you in denial of what scripture says?

You want to assert that the Holy Spirit left out the entire three ring circus act performed at every sunday mass?
And you feel this is logical and true because why?
What has that to do with what I said?


Has it ever occured to you while you're reading the parts of the bible you agree with, the other stuff you skip over is contradicting your whole religion, and that's why your mass is not in the bible? The Apostles did not institute seven sacraments and pass them on to anyone!

Nothing in the Bible contradicts Catholic doctrine.

You quoted the Apostle John a couple of times so I trust you believe him at his word. Let me ask you to read the following passage from his one and only Gospel
chapter six.

Please tell me if you don't comprehend the salvation message being spoken by Jesus' own mouth, and that our 18 year old boy would have read too. Would our island child be searching for a eucharist or a Person to receive?


John 6:30-63                                                   New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

30 So they said to him, “What sign are you going to give us then, so that we may see it and believe you? What work are you performing? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” 32 Then Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which[a] comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away; 38 for I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 This is indeed the will of my Father, that all who see the Son and believe in him may have eternal life; and I will raise them up on the last day.”

41 Then the Jews began to complain about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not complain among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly, I tell you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. 56 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever.” 59 He said these things while he was teaching in the synagogue at Capernaum.

The Words of Eternal Life

60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This teaching is difficult; who can accept it?” 61 But Jesus, being aware that his disciples were complaining about it, said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.



We receive Jesus in the Eucharist.

Do you expect an eight year old child on a desert island to be able to understand that? The crowds and even the apostles did not understand how that could be.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #25 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 07:51:36 »
nd
When anyone disagrees with what is in the Bible, I choose Bible.  It's really that simple.  We are saved by faith through grace; Jesus is God; He has not lost one yet.  Faith in Jesus as Lord, God, Savior, Creator, Judge -- that is now and always has been enough for salvation.  Once He changes you, you are His.  We have a choice of masters:  Either a slave of sin or a slave of righteousness.  Jesus is my righteousness.  I choose Him -- directly, simply, completely.  And I am His. 

Note this is all oral teaching. There is no suggestion that Timothy just passes on documents to others and tells them to work it out for themselves.

You do understand the New Testament was first taught by the Apostles by mouth because there was no such written New Testament like we have today, and that you can quote yourself, in complete trust.

Your quotes were typical denials of point #one above, but this one, "John 21:25 And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen", takes the cake for intellectual dishonesty on your part.

You want to assert that the Holy Spirit left out the entire three ring circus act performed at every sunday mass?
And you feel this is logical and true because why?

Has it ever occured to you while you're reading the parts of the bible you agree with, the other stuff you skip over is contradicting your whole religion, and that's why your mass is not in the bible? The Apostles did not institute seven sacraments and pass them on to anyone!

You quoted the Apostle John a couple of times so I trust you believe him at his word. Let me ask you to read the following passage from his one and only Gospel
chapter six.

Please tell me if you don't comprehend the salvation message being spoken by Jesus' own mouth, and that our 18 year old boy would have read too. Would our island child be searching for a eucharist or a Person to receive?


John 6:30-63                                                   New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

30 So they said to him, “What sign are you going to give us then, so that we may see it and believe you? What work are you performing? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” 32 Then Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which[a] comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away; 38 for I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 This is indeed the will of my Father, that all who see the Son and believe in him may have eternal life; and I will raise them up on the last day.”

41 Then the Jews began to complain about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not complain among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly, I tell you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. 56 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever.” 59 He said these things while he was teaching in the synagogue at Capernaum.

The Words of Eternal Life

60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This teaching is difficult; who can accept it?” 61 But Jesus, being aware that his disciples were complaining about it, said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.


[/quote]

The child on the island would be saying that there certainly has to be more about this Christianity than just a book, and would certainly go looking for it.

As for the Mass, yes it comes from the Holy Scriptures and it is how the early Christians worshipped. They did not just gather to hear some Pastor to expound on his interpretation of the various passages, but gathered together to for the Eucharistic Banquet as Jesus instructed us to. For further illumination on early Christian worship I suggest reading the words about this from St. Justin Martyr,  a man who willingly went to his death for the faith.

Offline Catholica

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #26 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 08:28:52 »
Question: If you put a child of 8 years old on a desert island with only a bible to read, and providing he took to it and obeyed it, when you rescued this child after 10 years, what do you suppose you'd find him preaching and practising as his religion with all it's trappings: Catholicism, Buddhism, Mormonism, Muslim, or the Person of Jesus Christ in a 1-1 relationship?

Well, by "practicing it", that would mean that he is doing what God has commanded.  So he probably would have gouged his eyes out and cut his hands off and would have died long ago.

But assuming that he didn't do that, he might be taking to heart the command of Jesus to "do this in memory of me", which would be a re-enactment of the last supper.  And he would probably be seeking someone to baptize him.  And he would probably be mixing Christianity with pre-Christian Judaism.  He might be praying for the dead, if he had a Catholic Bible.

It is unlikely that this person would be not practicing any rituals whatsoever, as some would like to suggest that we should.  If you are honest in reading the Bible, you'd have to admit that rituals are manifest from beginning to end.  Altars and sacrifice and cleaning rituals and offerings and sacrificial meals.

But none of that is antithetical to also having a relationship with Jesus.  But that relationship is not just 1:1, but also a relationship within a human community.  So the whole question is unlike human experience, which presumes a community. So he probably could not love God as much as he would if he lived in communion with other persons.  Something would be lacking.

There is nothing that is only 1:1 in our relationship with Jesus.  Yes we are called to each individually love God and know God and serve God, but we are also called to serve from our neighbor, and see God in our neighbor, and receive God's grace through our neighbor.  Rugged individualism may be an American trait, but it is also a heresy.  Communion is absolutely essential to the spiritual life.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #27 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 09:07:57 »
When anyone disagrees with what is in the Bible, I choose Bible.  It's really that simple.  We are saved by faith through grace; Jesus is God; He has not lost one yet.  Faith in Jesus as Lord, God, Savior, Creator, Judge -- that is now and always has been enough for salvation.  Once He changes you, you are His.  We have a choice of masters:  Either a slave of sin or a slave of righteousness.  Jesus is my righteousness.  I choose Him -- directly, simply, completely.  And I am His. 

Me too!

Offline chosenone

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #28 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 10:24:38 »
When anyone disagrees with what is in the Bible, I choose Bible.  It's really that simple.  We are saved by faith through grace; Jesus is God; He has not lost one yet.  Faith in Jesus as Lord, God, Savior, Creator, Judge -- that is now and always has been enough for salvation.  Once He changes you, you are His.  We have a choice of masters:  Either a slave of sin or a slave of righteousness.  Jesus is my righteousness.  I choose Him -- directly, simply, completely.  And I am His. 


 The Bible should be our only authority in the end.

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #29 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 11:07:23 »
The Bible should be our only authority in the end.

That contradicts what the Bible says.
« Last Edit: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 11:10:04 by Catholica »

Offline MeMyself

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #30 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 12:03:23 »
The Bible should be our only authority in the end.

That contradicts what the Bible says.

Nope.Not even close.

The Word is what we weigh the claims and teachings of others against.  If it doesn't line up with scripture, it is a lie.

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #31 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 12:13:32 »
The Bible should be our only authority in the end.

That contradicts what the Bible says.
 

Gods word is our authority, and if anything is not in agreement with that, then we can discard it.

Offline winsome

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #32 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 12:23:01 »

The Word is what we weigh the claims and teachings of others against.  If it doesn't line up with scripture, it is a lie.


Gods word is our authority, and if anything is not in agreement with that, then we can discard it.

Neither of those statements are about authority

Offline Catholica

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #33 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 12:28:52 »
The Bible should be our only authority in the end.

That contradicts what the Bible says.

Nope.Not even close.

The Word is what we weigh the claims and teachings of others against.  If it doesn't line up with scripture, it is a lie.

Your claims concerning the so-called "authority of scripture" don't line up with scripture. 

Offline chosenone

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Re: "Evangelical" Sex Abuse record "worse" than "Catholic"
« Reply #34 on: Mon Dec 02, 2013 - 12:39:25 »

The Word is what we weigh the claims and teachings of others against.  If it doesn't line up with scripture, it is a lie.



Gods word is our authority, and if anything is not in agreement with that, then we can discard it.


Neither of those statements are about authority
 

This explains it well

http://www.biblesupersearch.com/article.php?id=212

 

     
anything