GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: Eucharist=God?  (Read 8151 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DCR

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11300
  • Manna: 432
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Eucharist=God?
« on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 13:01:49 »
...but that's normally while the Eucharist is being consecrated, which we do believe is God.

I know about the doctrine of Real Presence, etc.  However, I'm not sure I have ever heard/read anyone actually put it that way.

Just so I'm understanding correctly, you're saying that you believe that the Eucharist is God?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Eucharist=God?
« on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 13:01:49 »

Offline mllevaleur

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 401
  • Manna: 22
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Eucharist=God?
« Reply #1 on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 13:10:31 »
...but that's normally while the Eucharist is being consecrated, which we do believe is God.

I know about the doctrine of Real Presence, etc.  However, I'm not sure I have ever heard/read anyone actually put it that way.

Just so I'm understanding correctly, you're saying that you believe that the Eucharist is God?


Indeed!

Jesus = God,  Eucharist = Jesus, Eucharist = God

So, if someone were to accuse me of worshipping the Eucharist...to that I would say, yes, I do.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Eucharist=God?
« Reply #1 on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 13:10:31 »

Offline broach972

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1217
  • Manna: 41
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Eucharist=God?
« Reply #2 on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 13:13:09 »

Indeed!

Jesus = God,  Eucharist = Jesus, Eucharist = God

So, if someone were to accuse me of worshipping the Eucharist...to that I would say, yes, I do.

 ::amen!:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::amen!:: ::clappingoverhead::

Offline DCR

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11300
  • Manna: 432
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #3 on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 13:19:56 »
I'm probably taking a risk at doing this, but since the two of you are willing to affirm this, I thought it might be worthy of its own thread.

(split from "The Pope..." thread).

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #3 on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 13:19:56 »

Offline mllevaleur

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 401
  • Manna: 22
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #4 on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 13:22:35 »
Not a problem!  ::smile::

I know, stated like that it sounds kinda crazy, but that's nothing new, really...

Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, ‘This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #4 on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 13:22:35 »



Offline DCR

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11300
  • Manna: 432
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #5 on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 13:26:40 »
I might have more to say later.  But, I'm sure you can understand if I'm not the only non-Catholic who might shudder at the idea of considering the elements of Communion to be deity in themselves that should be worshiped.

Of course, this will likely get into the whole real presence vs. memorial-only discussion.

I suppose it's one thing to say that the bread is Christ's body, and the cup is the new covenant in Christ's blood.  But, it's another... and, maybe more of a leap that many of us are comfortable making... to go as far as saying that the Eucharist is God Himself.

Offline broach972

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1217
  • Manna: 41
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #6 on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 13:27:04 »
I'm probably taking a risk at doing this, but since the two of you are willing to affirm this, I thought it might be worthy of its own thread.

(split from "The Pope..." thread).


Yea, I would imagine that this is going to be interesting.  Why do I feel like Custer all of a sudden?

marc

  • Guest
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #7 on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 13:28:10 »
I suppose that's the logical end of the path.  It's just a bit jarring to those of us who don't believe in the literal presence (and honestly, it's language that's likely not going to draw us--or at least me--closer to that view.)

Offline mllevaleur

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 401
  • Manna: 22
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #8 on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 13:30:16 »
I might have more to say later.  But, I'm sure you can understand if I'm not the only non-Catholic who might shudder at the idea of considering the elements of Communion to be deity in themselves that should be worshiped.

Of course, this will likely get into the whole real presence vs. memorial-only discussion.

I suppose it's one thing to say that the bread is Christ's body, and the cup is the new covenant in Christ's blood.  But, it's another... and, maybe more of a leap that many of us are comfortable making... to go as far as saying that the Eucharist is God Himself.

 ::nodding:: I certainly understand...I felt the exact same way initially!

Offline CDHealy

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4397
  • Manna: 120
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #9 on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 13:32:59 »
One way to think of it is this: Is God what he does?  Are God's acts just as much God as God?

If so, then, God's act in the Eucharist, to make the bread the Body of Christ and the wine the Blood of Christ, is just as much God as God himself is.  So, when we worship God's action in the Eucharist, we are simply worshipping God, not created elements, but God.

Offline broach972

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1217
  • Manna: 41
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #10 on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 13:45:19 »
I might have more to say later.  But, I'm sure you can understand if I'm not the only non-Catholic who might shudder at the idea of considering the elements of Communion to be deity in themselves that should be worshiped.

Of course, this will likely get into the whole real presence vs. memorial-only discussion.

I suppose it's one thing to say that the bread is Christ's body, and the cup is the new covenant in Christ's blood.  But, it's another... and, maybe more of a leap that many of us are comfortable making... to go as far as saying that the Eucharist is God Himself.

 ::nodding:: I certainly understand...I felt the exact same way initially!

I echo these sentiments.  The nature of the Eucharist was one of the first things I really had to ponder and tackle on my journey to becoming a Catholic.

Offline mllevaleur

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 401
  • Manna: 22
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #11 on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 14:13:03 »
I might have more to say later.  But, I'm sure you can understand if I'm not the only non-Catholic who might shudder at the idea of considering the elements of Communion to be deity in themselves that should be worshiped.

Of course, this will likely get into the whole real presence vs. memorial-only discussion.

I suppose it's one thing to say that the bread is Christ's body, and the cup is the new covenant in Christ's blood.  But, it's another... and, maybe more of a leap that many of us are comfortable making... to go as far as saying that the Eucharist is God Himself.



 ::nodding:: I certainly understand...I felt the exact same way initially!


I echo these sentiments.  The nature of the Eucharist was one of the first things I really had to ponder and tackle on my journey to becoming a Catholic.


Yep...for me, it was one of those things I simply had to accept on faith, in the words of St. Augustine, I had to "believe so that I could understand." It made sense intellectually and from scripture, but still...could I *really* believe that?

And in the words of St. Peter...where else was I to go? Everything else pointed me there, and I wasn't about to walk away because something was hard to understand...and in time, understanding came more fully.

As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.
Jesus then said to the Twelve, "Do you also want to leave?" 
Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.


A blogger I read frequently who converted from atheism summed up my own feelings nicely when she talked about looking back at her life one year after becoming Catholic:

Quote
Though God certainly could work in my life if I didn't receive the Blessed Sacrament (as he did tremendously before I became Catholic), the way he's slowly but steadily infiltrated my body and soul since I began to receive him physically at Communion is something new -- I am united with him now in a way I was not before.

To be honest, I am surprised by this.

When I received my first Communion at Easter Vigil last year I had come to accept that the teaching on the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist is true. Or, perhaps more accurately, I was willing to accept on faith that it was not false. I was undoubtedly being led to the Catholic Church, and found its defense of this teaching to be solid and compelling, so I trusted that it was true in some mysterious way, even though I didn't really get it. That was the best I could do, and I never expected to understand it any more than that. Even as the months have rolled by, after receiving Communion week after week, I still don't know how it works. I don't even have a visceral reaction when I first see the consecrated host held above the altar, and don't think I ever felt the Holy Spirit hit me like a ton of bricks the moment the consecrated host was placed on my tongue. And yet, despite the lack of immediate emotions, despite the fact that I can't tell you exactly how it all works...I believe now with all my heart that it is true. I know that I eat the flesh and drink the blood of God at the Mass, and that it is the source of my strength.





Offline DCR

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11300
  • Manna: 432
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #12 on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 14:56:30 »
For purposes of this discussion, I'm considering the verdict of "anathema" to be a separate issue.  As was discussed in that thread, there are apparently differing understandings about what anathema is, when it is given, to whom it applies, whether past anathemas specifically charged in the past still apply today, what the contempory Catholic Church's position today is on this versus what it was some centuries ago, etc...

There's doctrine, and then there's how doctrine is "enforced."  I'll leave discussion of how doctrine is enforced (today vs. the past) to another conversation.

This thread is about the doctrine of Eucharist itself.


EDIT:  the posts regarding "anathema" in the Roman Catholic Church have been split to another thread.
« Last Edit: Thu May 01, 2008 - 15:40:30 by DCR »

Offline Circuitridingpreacher

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 562
  • Manna: 33
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #13 on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 21:11:58 »
I might have more to say later.  But, I'm sure you can understand if I'm not the only non-Catholic who might shudder at the idea of considering the elements of Communion to be deity in themselves that should be worshiped.

Of course, this will likely get into the whole real presence vs. memorial-only discussion.

I suppose it's one thing to say that the bread is Christ's body, and the cup is the new covenant in Christ's blood.  But, it's another... and, maybe more of a leap that many of us are comfortable making... to go as far as saying that the Eucharist is God Himself.

Now that they have finally admitted to Idolatry it should be obvious what is going on with the priests......

Rom 1:22-27 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.


CRP

Offline James Rondon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 19760
  • Manna: 1746
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #14 on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 21:20:11 »

Indeed!

Jesus = God,  Eucharist = Jesus, Eucharist = God

So, if someone were to accuse me of worshipping the Eucharist...to that I would say, yes, I do.

 ::amen!:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::amen!:: ::clappingoverhead::

I might have more to say later.  But, I'm sure you can understand if I'm not the only non-Catholic who might shudder at the idea of considering the elements of Communion to be deity in themselves that should be worshiped.

Of course, this will likely get into the whole real presence vs. memorial-only discussion.

I suppose it's one thing to say that the bread is Christ's body, and the cup is the new covenant in Christ's blood.  But, it's another... and, maybe more of a leap that many of us are comfortable making... to go as far as saying that the Eucharist is God Himself.

Now that they have finally admitted to Idolatry

 ::eatingpopcorn:

Offline Nevertheless

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13259
  • Manna: 427
  • Gender: Female
  • Set a guard over my mouth, O Lord!
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #15 on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 23:31:29 »
One way to think of it is this: Is God what he does?  Are God's acts just as much God as God?

I'm a bit surprised no one has responded to this yet.

CD, I'm sure you'll trounce whatever I say with your great logic, but with reckless abandon I'll plunge in anyway.

No. God's acts are not God. Simple grammar rules can decipher this for you.

Consider a few Scripture verses:
From Psalm 66
Quote
1  Shout for joy to God, all the earth;
2   sing the glory of his name;
  give to him glorious praise!
3  Say to God,  “How awesome are your deeds!
  So great is your power that your enemies come cringing to you.
4  All the earth worships you
  and sings praises to you;
  they sing praises to your name.

Offline Dave...

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 926
  • Manna: 46
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #16 on: Fri May 02, 2008 - 04:36:41 »
Quote
For purposes of this discussion, I'm considering the verdict of "anathema" to be a separate issue.  As was discussed in that thread, there are apparently differing understandings about what anathema is, when it is given, to whom it applies, whether past anathemas specifically charged in the past still apply today, what the contempory Catholic Church's position today is on this versus what it was some centuries ago, etc...

In all seriousness, is there anything that you guys say that doesn't actually mean something else, or the opposite?

BTW, Hebrews, it's a great book.

“For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; who does not need daily like those high priests to offer up sacrifices, first for his own sins and then for the sins of the people.  Because this He did (past tense) *once for all* when He offered up Himself.  For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak but the word of the oath which came after the Law appoints a Son made perfect forever.
« Last Edit: Fri May 02, 2008 - 05:29:26 by Dave... »

Offline Circuitridingpreacher

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 562
  • Manna: 33
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #17 on: Fri May 02, 2008 - 07:49:30 »
If only it was possible for them to see what they are doing.....

Isa 44:9,17-20
9 They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed. ....17 And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god. 18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand. 19 And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I have baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and eaten it: and shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I fall down to the stock of a tree? 20 He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?

Spurgeon has a great sermon titled "The Deceived Heart" on this last verse, here is a quote from it:
Quote
And I need only, in passing, mention the Romanist. He, too, has a false religion; to us it is perfectly clear that he is deceived while he strives, by his good works and by his sacraments, to reach a heaven to which he cannot attain if he seeks it by the works of the law, and not by the righteousness of faith. We know that there is no admittance to heaven save by the blood and the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ, relied upon by a divinely-imparted faith. Let the Roman Catholic be as earnest and as devout as he may, let him strive with all his might, and let him carry out his own convictions to the full, yet of this we are sure, beyond a doubt, that he is a deceived man, and that his religion is a thing that is utterly worthless.

CRP


Offline CDHealy

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4397
  • Manna: 120
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #18 on: Fri May 02, 2008 - 08:43:15 »
One way to think of it is this: Is God what he does?  Are God's acts just as much God as God?

I'm a bit surprised no one has responded to this yet.

So am I.  But it's always easier to attack a straw man ("they're idolators") than to really deal with the true argument (here in my case: energies/essence).

CD, I'm sure you'll trounce whatever I say with your great logic, but with reckless abandon I'll plunge in anyway.

No. God's acts are not God. Simple grammar rules can decipher this for you.

Consider a few Scripture verses:
From Psalm 66
Quote
1  Shout for joy to God, all the earth;
2   sing the glory of his name;
  give to him glorious praise!
3  Say to God,  “How awesome are your deeds!
  So great is your power that your enemies come cringing to you.
4  All the earth worships you
  and sings praises to you;
  they sing praises to your name.”   Selah
5  Come and see what God has done:
  he is awesome in his deeds toward the children of man.

I think you've missed something important.  Note the last line: "he is awesome in his deeds."  God is in his deeds, because his deeds are part of who he is.  God is his actions.  God's actions are God.

God is worshipped because of what He has done. You seem to be advocating that we worship His actions because they are God.

Yes.

For example: 1 John: "God is love."  God is his loving acts (or, if you want to argue that grammatically "love" in this verse is not a verb, then you have to admit that God's love is not passive, but active, thus God is [active] love).  God's loving acts are God.

Not, of course, in terms of simple identification.  God is love is correct.  Love is God is not correct.  God is his loving acts, but is not nominally identical to them.

What I am expressing is the energies (activities)/essence distinction.  This distinction is not really all that different, in principle, from classical Trinitarianism.  Jesus is God, but is not the Father.  The Father is God but  is not the Holy Spirit.

Thus, God is his activities (energies), but is not self-identical to them.  They are ineffably united in the dynamic of essence/energies but are similarly ineffably distinct.

Psalm 150
Quote
Praise the Lord! Praise God in his sanctuary;
  praise him in his mighty heavens!
2  Praise him for his mighty deeds;
  praise him according to his excellent greatness!
3  Praise him with trumpet sound;
  praise him with lute and harp!
4  Praise him with tambourine and dance;
  praise him with strings and pipe!
5  Praise him with sounding cymbals;
  praise him with loud clashing cymbals!
6  Let everything that has breath praise the Lord!
 Praise the Lord!

Once again, we praise God because of what He has done. We do not praise His actions as if they were God.

The problem with this--and you'll have to follow me here--is that if what you are saying is true, Jesus' prayer in John 17 can never be fulfilled.

"My prayer is not for them [the apostles] alone. I pray also for thos who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that  you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: i in them and you in me."

Now, according to what you're arguing here, all God's acts are not God and are, in fact, external to God.  So, God's act of salvation is not internal to God, it is external.  It is something that happens outside of God.  Thus, when humans are saved, their salvation is wholly external to God.  In other words the internal unity with God ("in us") for which Jesus prayed, can never happen if God's acts, including and especially his salvific act in  humans, are always by definition external to and something other than God.

If we are saved outside God, if God's acts are always by definitioin external to and something other than God, then we can never have internal union with God which is what Jesus prayed for.

Thus, according to what you're arguing, Jesus' prayer will never be fulfilled.

Now I'm sure you'll correct me if I've missed it, but I could not find even one place in Scripture where an action was worshipped. The object of worship is always a person or thing. It is the person or thing that is doing something that is worshipped and the action is [or may be] the reason for the worship.

Once again, we're dealing with a much fuller range of facts than simply what actions humans in Scripture do when they worship.  We all agree that God alone is to be worshipped, and that worship that is directed to anything or anyone other than God is idolatry.

The quibble is over what does and does not constitute worship--and here our opponents are just simply uncharitable and close-minded toward what we say, claiming some sort of infallible knowledge as to what is and isn't in our hearts and minds--as well as over what is and isn't God.

I'm simply trying to point out that Scripture itself gives us reason to think that God is not some absolutely simple divine essence (which is the philosopher's god and not the biblical God), but is, rather, a tri-complexity of Persons united in one nature/essence, and, similarly, that since God is not absolutely simple, he cannot be separated from his acts but is also not self-identical with his acts.

If so, then, God's act in the Eucharist, to make the bread the Body of Christ and the wine the Blood of Christ, is just as much God as God himself is.  So, when we worship God's action in the Eucharist, we are simply worshipping God, not created elements, but God.

Having begun with a faulty assumption, you end with a faulty conclusion. God's acts are not Him and the Eucharist is a thing, not an action.

Well, I think I've made the case that God's actions, while not self-identical to his nature, are, nonetheless not divisible from him.

But with regard to the Eucharist,  you are just simply  wrong: it is an action of God and that is what the Church has always taught.  Indeed, that is what St. Paul indicates (as does Jesus in the institution narratives): took, blessed, brake, gave; the cup, the bread IS the communion of his Body and Blood.

"I worship God's action in the Eucharist," or "I worship God for His action in the Eucharist" is not the same as "I worship the Eucharist."

It is if, as I am arguing, God is not divisible from his actions.

Neither of the first two statements are likely to prompt the charges of idolatry which seem to be inevitable in this type of conversation.

Charges of idolatry are simply that: charges.  They must be backed up by proof.  All that I've seen so far of this "proof" is that our opponents are clamining infallible knowledge of hearts and minds in actions and intentinons.  Not even the Pope of Rome claims this.   They're more Roman Catholic than they know.

Offline broach972

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1217
  • Manna: 41
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #19 on: Fri May 02, 2008 - 09:08:22 »
If you believe it is God Himself, then howso would this be idolatry? Seems it would be worship to me.

Finally, someone is exercising some rational thought and common sense.

Offline Charles Sloan

  • Prisoner of Grace
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5403
  • Manna: 2209
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #20 on: Fri May 02, 2008 - 09:18:22 »
If you believe it is God Himself, then howso would this be idolatry? Seems it would be worship to me.

Didn't the whorshippers of Baal, Dagon, Astaroth, Diana, etc. all believe them to be gods?

marc

  • Guest
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #21 on: Fri May 02, 2008 - 09:22:37 »
That's what I meant when I said this was the logical end of the path.  Still, it is a destination that for many calls the path further into question, or maybe (man I have to keep from using an inappropriate word here) fills in the dots and makes us take our breath in at the reality of what the doctrine of real presence means.  I realize that the passage in John will be used to emphasize that the original hearers were also uncomfortable with the idea, but some of us don't think that the John passage (eat my flesh...) is talking about communion (although I believe that this passage and communion are about the same thing, taking Jesus into our lives, consuming Him).

Having said that, CD did use language that implied a different way of looking at this, as Nevertheless pointed out.  Saying that God's acts are God does take things a bit far.  Saying "I see God" when we see beauty, for instance, is a fine, accurate metaphorical statement, but not a literal one.  I was surprised when I saw this statement, since I thought the idea of literal presence explained the concept of the Eucharist=God succinctly.

Offline CDHealy

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4397
  • Manna: 120
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #22 on: Fri May 02, 2008 - 09:32:39 »
Saying "I see God" when we see beauty, for instance, is a fine, accurate metaphorical statement, but not a literal one.

Why not literal?  Isn't all beauty the creation of God?  If it's the creation of God, one of his creative acts, isn't it then appropriate to worship the God who is in beauty as its origin, source and creator?  Isn't, in fact, all beauty a manifestation of God's glory and therefore of his presence?

Offline CDHealy

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4397
  • Manna: 120
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #23 on: Fri May 02, 2008 - 09:35:35 »
My understanding of the Eucharist is that God is the one after prayer and blessing who intercedes and translates himself into the actual body and blood of Christ. It's been years since I studied it, so my take on this may be very off in their mark. This is different in essence than Baal et. al. ~ if I remember correctly they all thought these were gods, not God Himself who brings Himself into the Eucharist, if that makes sense.

In the Orthodox liturgy, the priest prays to God, in the portion of the Lord's Supper called the epiclesis:

Priest (in a low voice):
It is proper and right to sing to You, bless You, praise You, thank You and worship You in all places of Your dominion; for You are God ineffable, beyond comprehension, invisible, beyond understanding, existing forever and always the same; You and Your only begotten Son and Your Holy Spirit. You brought us into being out of nothing, and when we fell, You raised us up again. You did not cease doing everything until You led us to heaven and granted us Your kingdom to come. For all these things we thank You and Your only begotten Son and Your Holy Spirit; for all things that we know and do not know, for blessings seen and unseen that have been bestowed upon us. We also thank You for this liturgy which You are pleased to accept from our hands, even though You are surrounded by thousands of Archangels and tens of thousands of Angels, by the Cherubim and Seraphim, six-winged, many-eyed, soaring with their wings,

Priest:
Singing the victory hymn, proclaiming, crying out, and saying:

People:
Holy, holy, holy, Lord Sabaoth, heaven and earth are filled with Your glory. Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna to God in the highest.

Priest (in a low voice):
Together with these blessed powers, merciful Master, we also proclaim and say: You are holy and most holy, You and Your only begotten Son and Your Holy Spirit. You are holy and most holy, and sublime is Your glory. You so loved Your world that You gave Your only begotten Son so that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. He came and fulfilled the divine plan for us. On the night when He was delivered up, or rather when He gave Himself up for the life of the world, He took bread in His holy, pure, and blameless hands, gave thanks, blessed, sanctified, broke and gave it to His holy disciples and apostles, saying:

Priest:
Take, eat, this is my Body which is broken for you for the forgiveness of sins.

People:
Amen.

Priest (in a low voice):
Likewise, after supper, He took the cup, saying:

Priest:
Drink of it all of you; this is my Blood of the new Covenant which is shed for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins.

People:
Amen.

Priest (in a low voice):
Remembering, therefore, this command of the Savior, and all that came to pass for our sake, the cross, the tomb, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the enthronement at the right hand of the Father, and the second, glorious coming,

Priest:
We offer to You these gifts from Your own gifts in all and for all.

People:
We praise You, we bless You, we give thanks to You, and we pray to You, Lord our God.

Priest (in a low voice):
Once again we offer to You this spiritual worship without the shedding of blood, and we ask, pray, and entreat You: send down Your Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here presented.
And make this bread the precious Body of Your Christ.


(He blesses the holy Bread.)

Deacon (in a low voice):
Amen.

Priest (in a low voice):
And that which is in this cup the precious Blood of Your Christ.

(He blesses the holy Cup.)

Deacon (in a low voice):
Amen.

Priest (in a low voice):
Changing them by Your Holy Spirit.

(He blesses them both.)

Deacon (in a low voice):
Amen. Amen. Amen.

Offline Charles Sloan

  • Prisoner of Grace
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5403
  • Manna: 2209
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #24 on: Fri May 02, 2008 - 09:49:32 »
Charles (in a low voice): Yikes...

Offline Circuitridingpreacher

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 562
  • Manna: 33
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #25 on: Fri May 02, 2008 - 13:37:35 »
I might have more to say later.  But, I'm sure you can understand if I'm not the only non-Catholic who might shudder at the idea of considering the elements of Communion to be deity in themselves that should be worshiped.

Of course, this will likely get into the whole real presence vs. memorial-only discussion.

I suppose it's one thing to say that the bread is Christ's body, and the cup is the new covenant in Christ's blood.  But, it's another... and, maybe more of a leap that many of us are comfortable making... to go as far as saying that the Eucharist is God Himself.

Now that they have finally admitted to Idolatry it should be obvious what is going on with the priests......

Rom 1:22-27 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.


CRP

If you believe it is God Himself, then howso would this be idolatry? Seems it would be worship to me.

It is worship alright, it is just not the worship of God. To believe that a simple wafer has actually been turned into God is naught but the lowest form of human depravity.


CRP

Offline CDHealy

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4397
  • Manna: 120
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #26 on: Fri May 02, 2008 - 14:14:18 »
To believe that a simple wafer has actually been turned into God is naught but the lowest form of human depravity.


CRP

St Paul must have been one who engaged in the "lowest form of human depravity":
1 Corinthians 10:16-17 "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread."

And then there's Jesus himself:
John 6:53-58 "Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.

Offline CDHealy

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4397
  • Manna: 120
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #27 on: Fri May 02, 2008 - 14:16:06 »
CD,

This seems quite similar to what is said during the Mass in Roman Catholicism.


There are some similarities, to be sure, but significant differences as well.  One of which involves the epiclesis (the calling down of the Holy Spirit upon all those present and upon the elements of bread, wine and water) itself.

Offline Nevertheless

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13259
  • Manna: 427
  • Gender: Female
  • Set a guard over my mouth, O Lord!
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #28 on: Fri May 02, 2008 - 15:50:27 »
For example: 1 John: "God is love."  God is his loving acts (or, if you want to argue that grammatically "love" in this verse is not a verb, then you have to admit that God's love is not passive, but active, thus God is [active] love).  God's loving acts are God.

Not, of course, in terms of simple identification.  God is love is correct.  Love is God is not correct. God is his loving acts, but is not nominally identical to them.

Thus, God is his activities (energies), but is not self-identical to them.  They are ineffably united in the dynamic of essence/energies but are similarly ineffably distinct.

This is exactly my point. God expresses Himself through His actions, and in that sense, His actions are Him, just as our actions are us. But just as we can say "God is love" but not "love is God" we can say that God is His actions, but not that His actions are Him.



The problem with this--and you'll have to follow me here--is that if what you are saying is true, Jesus' prayer in John 17 can never be fulfilled.

"My prayer is not for them [the apostles] alone. I pray also for thos who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that  you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: i in them and you in me."

Now, according to what you're arguing here, all God's acts are not God and are, in fact, external to God.
So far, I agree.
So, God's act of salvation is not internal to God, it is external.  It is something that happens outside of God.  Thus, when humans are saved, their salvation is wholly external to God.  In other words the internal unity with God ("in us") for which Jesus prayed, can never happen if God's acts, including and especially his salvific act in  humans, are always by definition external to and something other than God.

If we are saved outside God, if God's acts are always by definition external to and something other than God, then we can never have internal union with God which is what Jesus prayed for.

Thus, according to what you're arguing, Jesus' prayer will never be fulfilled.
But with this I disagree.
Let's compare salvation to marriage. When a man and woman marry they must commit acts outside of themselves. They get a license, have a ceremony, consummate the marriage. If your statement about God's actions is true, then these external actions cannot unite these people, yet Scripture tells us that they become one flesh. They are united in the most basic way. Paul tells us that this is a profound mystery and that it refers to Christ and the church.

You seem to be saying that God could not join Himself to man unless the act of joining is, itself, God. That makes no sense! We are separated and He unites us. The uniting is what He does, not what He is.

Saying "I see God" when we see beauty, for instance, is a fine, accurate metaphorical statement, but not a literal one.

Why not literal?  Isn't all beauty the creation of God?  If it's the creation of God, one of his creative acts, isn't it then appropriate to worship the God who is in beauty as its origin, source and creator?  Isn't, in fact, all beauty a manifestation of God's glory and therefore of his presence?

Apparently you don't see the danger in what you are saying. Beauty is a creation of God, not God! If we are to take such a statement literally then there is absolutely nothing wrong with worshipping the beauty we find in nature. You seem to be confused by the difference between literal and metaphorical statements. I know from what you have written in the past that you understand that difference, so are you purposefully being obtuse? Creation and creator are not the same.

Offline Circuitridingpreacher

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 562
  • Manna: 33
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #29 on: Fri May 02, 2008 - 16:54:02 »
To believe that a simple wafer has actually been turned into God is naught but the lowest form of human depravity.


CRP

St Paul must have been one who engaged in the "lowest form of human depravity":
1 Corinthians 10:16-17 "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread."

And then there's Jesus himself:
John 6:53-58 "Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.

Offline extranos

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1586
  • Manna: 40
  • Gender: Male
  • Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #30 on: Sat May 03, 2008 - 07:09:49 »
Circuitrider says:
Quote
ndeed I do.....

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters , and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

CRP

CRP, Why change the subject?  Be a brave soul and answer the question asked by CD.  Given what CD wrote, do YOU believe what Jesus says?  Jesus cannot lie in one place (CDs quotes) and tell the truth in another place (CRP's quotes), He has told the truth in both places.  Do you believe Jesus in the quotes offered by CD? 

Quote
It is worship alright, it is just not the worship of God. To believe that a simple wafer has actually been turned into God is naught but the lowest form of human depravity.


CRP
CRP, is it a teaching that you have studied and rejected?  Or is it something new to you and the strangeness of it bothers you?  Just curious about your reason for vehemently rejecting something that the Christian Church has taught for two milennia.


Along these lines, in our weekly Communion service, we sing the Song of Simeon, who spoke these words upon seeing the Christ (Luke 2):
29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
32 light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Why?  Because just like Simeon, we, too, have seen the Christ when we take Communion.  It's truly mystical, yet - like the posts here have said - it's a simple matter of trusting Christ's words just like a small child trusts his parents.  It can bring tears to my eyes upon occasion because of the realization of what has just taken place in the worship service.  It's my earthly participation in the Great Feast which goes on and on and is partaken of by the WHOLE CHURCH of God, not just those I can see walking on earth.  Amazing stuff.  Mind-bending.  A glimpse into the supernatural, a shadowy sign of what is to come.

Dan

Offline Circuitridingpreacher

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 562
  • Manna: 33
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #31 on: Sat May 03, 2008 - 08:17:39 »
Circuitrider says:
Quote
ndeed I do.....

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters , and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

CRP

CRP, Why change the subject?  Be a brave soul and answer the question asked by CD.  Given what CD wrote, do YOU believe what Jesus says?  Jesus cannot lie in one place (CDs quotes) and tell the truth in another place (CRP's quotes), He has told the truth in both places.  Do you believe Jesus in the quotes offered by CD? 
Of course I believe what Christ says, but the quotes do not mean actual flesh and blood. To even imply such a thing, I compel you to prove which part of Christ's body was missing at the time He gave it to them to eat?

Quote
It is worship alright, it is just not the worship of God. To believe that a simple wafer has actually been turned into God is naught but the lowest form of human depravity.


CRP
CRP, is it a teaching that you have studied and rejected?  Or is it something new to you and the strangeness of it bothers you?  Just curious about your reason for vehemently rejecting something that the Christian Church has taught for two milennia.


Along these lines, in our weekly Communion service, we sing the Song of Simeon, who spoke these words upon seeing the Christ (Luke 2):
29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
32 light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Why?  Because just like Simeon, we, too, have seen the Christ when we take Communion.  It's truly mystical, yet - like the posts here have said - it's a simple matter of trusting Christ's words just like a small child trusts his parents.  It can bring tears to my eyes upon occasion because of the realization of what has just taken place in the worship service.  It's my earthly participation in the Great Feast which goes on and on and is partaken of by the WHOLE CHURCH of God, not just those I can see walking on earth.  Amazing stuff.  Mind-bending.  A glimpse into the supernatural, a shadowy sign of what is to come.

Dan

Studied and rejected.

CRP
« Last Edit: Sat May 03, 2008 - 09:24:27 by Circuitridingpreacher »

Offline extranos

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1586
  • Manna: 40
  • Gender: Male
  • Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #32 on: Sat May 03, 2008 - 16:41:32 »
CRP:
Quote
Of course I believe what Christ says, but the quotes do not mean actual flesh and blood. To even imply such a thing, I compel you to prove which part of Christ's body was missing at the time He gave it to them to eat?
So you are saying "is" means "represents" because Christ can only have one body and it must reside in one particular place and time always, am I summarizing your view correctly?

Well, let's examine that.  Are you sure that Jesus was at the Last Supper?  Didn't David write "The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?" (Psalm 110).  Well, how can Jesus ("my Lord") be sitting at the right hand of the Father and also eating the Last Supper with His disciples?  And what does Paul mean when he writes, in Ephesians 1, "22And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way."  If Jesus has a body, and it has the same standard body parts as everybody else's body, then what does it mean when the Holy Spirit tells us that Jesus "fills everything in every way"?

It's an interesting assertion, yours, that "is" means "represents".  Do you have anything to support that?  Love to read it.  You realize, don't you, that your logic can be used to destroy the Holy Trinity?  In Matthew 3:17, the Father says "This IS My Son....".  Now, using your translation, I am well within my rights to insist that Jesus was not the Son of God, He merely "represented" the Son of God.  Boom!  No Trinity!  Jesus, using your translation, must be nothing more than a standard sinful human that "represents" a deity - but NOT the deity himself.  Interesting viewpoint that you have.

In addition, you write that you have studied the Real Presence.  Would you do us the favor of explaining how your study went?  Was this something you did on your own?  Did a  preacher lead you through it?  A bible class?  Do you know how to read Greek?

Blessings!
Dan

Offline Circuitridingpreacher

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 562
  • Manna: 33
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #33 on: Sat May 03, 2008 - 20:04:28 »
CRP:
Quote
Of course I believe what Christ says, but the quotes do not mean actual flesh and blood. To even imply such a thing, I compel you to prove which part of Christ's body was missing at the time He gave it to them to eat?
So you are saying "is" means "represents" because Christ can only have one body and it must reside in one particular place and time always, am I summarizing your view correctly?

Well, let's examine that.  Are you sure that Jesus was at the Last Supper?  Didn't David write "The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?" (Psalm 110).  Well, how can Jesus ("my Lord") be sitting at the right hand of the Father and also eating the Last Supper with His disciples?  And what does Paul mean when he writes, in Ephesians 1, "22And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way."  If Jesus has a body, and it has the same standard body parts as everybody else's body, then what does it mean when the Holy Spirit tells us that Jesus "fills everything in every way"?

It's an interesting assertion, yours, that "is" means "represents".  Do you have anything to support that?  Love to read it.  You realize, don't you, that your logic can be used to destroy the Holy Trinity?  In Matthew 3:17, the Father says "This IS My Son....".  Now, using your translation, I am well within my rights to insist that Jesus was not the Son of God, He merely "represented" the Son of God.  Boom!  No Trinity!  Jesus, using your translation, must be nothing more than a standard sinful human that "represents" a deity - but NOT the deity himself.  Interesting viewpoint that you have.

In addition, you write that you have studied the Real Presence.  Would you do us the favor of explaining how your study went?  Was this something you did on your own?  Did a  preacher lead you through it?  A bible class?  Do you know how to read Greek?

Blessings!
Dan

I guess you don't understand the difference in qualities of the hypostatic union. You do realize that the humanity of Christ was not omnipresent, while His divine nature was.

Having a body limited to both time and space, when He held out the bread, tell me which part of His body was no longer associated with the rest of His body. If you refuse to tell me that I won't even bother addressing you again.

CRP

Offline extranos

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1586
  • Manna: 40
  • Gender: Male
  • Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum
    • View Profile
Re: Eucharist=God?
« Reply #34 on: Sat May 03, 2008 - 20:40:00 »
crp:
Quote
Having a body limited to both time and space, when He held out the bread, tell me which part of His body was no longer associated with the rest of His body.
Now, is that the same body that vanished in a crowd, and the same body that walked through walls?  Is that the body that is limited to time and space? 

Quote
If you refuse to tell me that I won't even bother addressing you again.
Oh, please.  You've constructed this artificial rule whereby there can be nothing miraculous about the Last Supper or the Words of Institution.  Scripture clearly supports the Real Presence through the words of Christ Himself ("This is My Body") and Paul's letter which revisits the teaching that Communion is a union with Christ's Body and Blood.  You've offered no evidence whatsoever to prove your point.  All you do is hide behind the idea that Christ's words cannot speak something into being.  That's what we're saying here, nothing more.  Further, you are saying that the Church has taught idolatry as a central doctrine from the time of the Apostles.  Trust me, if I have to pick between the clear words of Christ or your "logic" constructions, I'm happy to side with Christ.  One thought that comes immediately to mind is this.....Christ could see into the future and know that morons like us might misinterpret his words, so why is it that he didn't use the word "represents" instead of "is", just to clear that whole thing up?  Any ideas on that one?

I'd recommend that you get over yourself and engage in dialog.  We're happy to listen to your arguments, but I'd suggest that you lose the condescending attitude. 
« Last Edit: Sat May 03, 2008 - 21:07:45 by extranos »

 

     
anything