Author Topic: False teachings of Spiritual Formation and Contemplative Spirituality ...  (Read 8126 times)

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HRoberson

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This is a Roman effort at unity. Why, pray tell, should they not desire it? Let's use your same question: If you thought your church was The Church, would it be better just to write off all those Protestants, or should they seek unity? Hmm....? The fact that you don't like them; that you have a knee-jerk reaction against anything they might do is irrelevant. If both the Catholics and all the Protestants were praying for unity, who's to say that the Protestant version wouldn't prevail? Sounds like lack of faith to me.

There is a distinct difference between a church that admits it uses both text and traditional teaching, and unbelievers. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean they're unbelievers. You are misusing the passage, which is a common tactic of folks who don't actually have a cogent argument.

You haven't argued breathing techniques or mantras. You have simply argued that spiritual formation and spiritual disciplines are of the Devil. Because of your deep-seated hatred of all things Catholic, you paint with too broad a brush - and in so doing destroy your own argument. For repetition to be vain, it has to be well, vain. If a mother has a child in the hospital, how many times can she plead with God for his life in the same prayer? Once? Twice? Twenty times? How many repetitions equate to "vain?" I suspect the major issue here is not the number of repetitions but the purpose of the praying - to be seen by men. You simply, again, choose words and assume they mean the same thing everywhere. They do not.

The success of a "methodology" is dependent on a number of variables, not the least of which is the purpose and maturity of the practitioner. Warren and Hybels also encourage prayer in their churches. Is that methodology also suspect to you? No, what Hybels has lamented is not urging people to pray, or to grow closer to God, but that they focused on and confused large numbers and church attendance with spiritual maturity. Their erroneous focus says nothing about the utility of various methodologies when used appropriately. You confuse the two repeatedly.

You again make assertions which are simply too simplistic. Perhaps you aren't aware that Pagans were praying before Israel did? Perhaps you aren't aware that Pagans assembled together before Israel did? Perhaps you are not aware that Pagans used rituals before Israel did? Everything you do has come from, or has been done by some Pagan before it was done in either Israel or the church. The simple fact that others do something is irrelevant when it comes to something that is effective or appropriate. Your "we can't do it because it wasn't invented here" is an intellectually empty argument.

What is propaganda is the baseless assertions, and appeals to emotional re-activity based on an "us" versus "them" approach. You have repeatedly said things are Satanic or of the occult without once offering any indication of the veracity of those assertions. That is simply propaganda methodology.

I have never said that only Adventists perceive issues with your various topics. What I have said is your simple assertion that these things are Satanic are baseless. As baseless perhaps as basing an entire denomination on some woman's visions - while decrying others' visions. Can anyone say, "hypocrisy?"



« Last Edit: Sun Aug 11, 2013 - 22:51:46 by HRoberson »

HRoberson

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Breathing techniques. You don't think breathing techniques are valid because they aren't in Scripture.
Do you feel the same about church buildings? How about Sunday School? How about "Seventh Day Adventists?"

You have read the psalms, no? Do you know how the psalmist meditated on the Law? Do you know if he had his eyes shut? How about open? Perhaps he focused on a spot on the wall? Would you object to "eye techniques" just because they aren't mentioned?

Do you know if the psalmist sat while meditating on the Law? Or maybe he stood? Perhaps he rocked back and forth while he stood? Maybe he wrote the words in the air with his finger while he meditated. Do you know? If you don't, how in the world do you know which posture to use while you meditate on the word of God? If somebody suggested that sitting, slightly reclined has helped thousands of people meditate, would you demand a Scriptural example of it?

Do you even know what breathing techniques are used, and to what purpose?

I suspect not.

And yet, you have no compunction about declaring them unbiblical and Satanic.

Right Christian of you, huh?
« Last Edit: Sun Aug 11, 2013 - 22:23:17 by HRoberson »

HRoberson

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What is amazing is that I could have made your argument much more effectively than you will ever hope to do. That's how I know you don't know what you're talking about, are relying on others' cut-and-pasted text, and re-issuing worn and baseless assertions. There are so many examples of weirdness in Christian practice and yet you have not provided even one concrete example of someone on the fringe.

You're just parroting hearsay.

But even those arguments would only represent the extreme reports and would not directly address the efficacy of spiritual formation, spiritual disciplines, or whatever it is you're calling contemplative spirituality.

Offline Hobie

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This is a Roman effort at unity. Why, pray tell, should they not desire it? Let's use your same question: If you thought your church was The Church, would it be better just to write off all those Protestants, or should they seek unity? Hmm....? The fact that you don't like them; that you have a knee-jerk reaction against anything they might do is irrelevant. If both the Catholics and all the Protestants were praying for unity, who's to say that the Protestant version wouldn't prevail? Sounds like lack of faith to me.

There is a distinct difference between a church that admits it uses both text and traditional teaching, and unbelievers. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean they're unbelievers. You are misusing the passage, which is a common tactic of folks who don't actually have a cogent argument.

You haven't argued breathing techniques or mantras. You have simply argued that spiritual formation and spiritual disciplines are of the Devil. Because of your deep-seated hatred of all things Catholic, you paint with too broad a brush - and in so doing destroy your own argument. For repetition to be vain, it has to be well, vain. If a mother has a child in the hospital, how many times can she plead with God for his life in the same prayer? Once? Twice? Twenty times? How many repetitions equate to "vain?" I suspect the major issue here is not the number of repetitions but the purpose of the praying - to be seen by men. You simply, again, choose words and assume they mean the same thing everywhere. They do not.

The success of a "methodology" is dependent on a number of variables, not the least of which is the purpose and maturity of the practitioner. Warren and Hybels also encourage prayer in their churches. Is that methodology also suspect to you? No, what Hybels has lamented is not urging people to pray, or to grow closer to God, but that they focused on and confused large numbers and church attendance with spiritual maturity. Their erroneous focus says nothing about the utility of various methodologies when used appropriately. You confuse the two repeatedly.

You again make assertions which are simply too simplistic. Perhaps you aren't aware that Pagans were praying before Israel did? Perhaps you aren't aware that Pagans assembled together before Israel did? Perhaps you are not aware that Pagans used rituals before Israel did? Everything you do has come from, or has been done by some Pagan before it was done in either Israel or the church. The simple fact that others do something is irrelevant when it comes to something that is effective or appropriate. Your "we can't do it because it wasn't invented here" is an intellectually empty argument.

What is propaganda is the baseless assertions, and appeals to emotional re-activity based on an "us" versus "them" approach. You have repeatedly said things are Satanic or of the occult without once offering any indication of the veracity of those assertions. That is simply propaganda methodology.

I have never said that only Adventists perceive issues with your various topics. What I have said is your simple assertion that these things are Satanic are baseless. As baseless perhaps as basing an entire denomination on some woman's visions - while decrying others' visions. Can anyone say, "hypocrisy?"




Well the Inquisition was also a effort at 'Unity' and we see the results of that, and now we see these efforts to come in the back door of the churchs and religious groups using these mystic practices, it too will fail.

HRoberson

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Do you have something more substantive than that? We are talking prayer for unity here, not running people over in the crosswalk.

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HRoberson

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Hello?
What is meditation?
What specifically do you think is Satanic about meditation?

What is contemplation?
What specifically do you think is Satanic about contemplation?

What is spiritual formation?
What specifically do you think is Satanic about spiritual formation?

What are spiritual disciplines?
What specifically do you think is Satanic about spiritual disciplines?

Offline Amo

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This is a Roman effort at unity. Why, pray tell, should they not desire it? Let's use your same question: If you thought your church was The Church, would it be better just to write off all those Protestants, or should they seek unity? Hmm....? The fact that you don't like them; that you have a knee-jerk reaction against anything they might do is irrelevant. If both the Catholics and all the Protestants were praying for unity, who's to say that the Protestant version wouldn't prevail? Sounds like lack of faith to me.


Lack of faith in what, you, or Romanism? Obviously not the scriptures which plainly teach that God’s people are not to seek unity with those who believe and practice a lie. To the contrary HR, the lack of faith is on your part concerning the teachings and instruction of the Holy scriptures. They ought to being praying for the acceptance of the truths of God’s word, which acceptance would produce true biblical unity, not unity by way of compromise in ignoring disregard of the truth. The bible teaches that we should seek to be at peace with all men, not to be in unity with all men. There is a major difference between the two.

Main Entry:uni£ty
Pronunciation:*y*-n*-t*
Function:noun
Inflected Form:plural -ties
Etymology:Middle English unite, from Anglo-French unit*, from Latin unitat-, unitas, from unus one — more at  ONE
Date:14th century

1 a : the quality or state of not being multiple  : ONENESS  b (1) : a definite amount taken as one or for which 1 is made to stand in calculation  *in a table of natural sines the radius of the circle is regarded as unity*  (2) : IDENTITY ELEMENT
2 a : a condition of harmony  : ACCORD  b : continuity without deviation or change (as in purpose or action)
3 a : the quality or state of being made one  : UNIFICATION  b : a combination or ordering of parts in a literary or artistic production that constitutes a whole or promotes an undivided total effect;  also   : the resulting singleness of effect or symmetry and consistency of style and character
4 : a totality of related parts  : an entity that is a complex or systematic whole
5 : any of three principles of dramatic structure derived by French classicists from Aristotle's Poetics and requiring a play to have a single action represented as occurring in one place and within one day
6 capitalized   : a 20th century American religious movement that emphasizes spiritual sources of health and prosperity

Main Entry:1peace
Pronunciation:*p*s
Function:noun
Etymology:Middle English pees, from Anglo-French pes, pees, from Latin pac-, pax; akin to Latin pacisci to agree — more at  PACT
Date:12th century

1 : a state of tranquillity or quiet: as  a : freedom from civil disturbance  b : a state of security or order within a community provided for by law or custom  *a breach of the peace*
2 : freedom from disquieting or oppressive thoughts or emotions
3 : harmony in personal relations
4 a : a state or period of mutual concord between governments  b : a pact or agreement to end hostilities between those who have been at war or in a state of enmity
5 —  used interjectionally to ask for silence or calm or as a greeting or farewell
  –at peace : in a state of concord or tranquillity

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. 2 Cor 6:14-18 (KJV)

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There is a distinct difference between a church that admits it uses both text and traditional teaching, and unbelievers. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean they're unbelievers. You are misusing the passage, which is a common tactic of folks who don't actually have a cogent argument.


Your right there is a big difference between the two. The unbelievers are more just before God than those who put tradition which contradicts the word of God above the same. They are far more dangerous than non believers. Professing to worship the God of scripture out of one side of their mouth, but believing and practicing the worship of other god’s out of the other side of their mouths. Christ and Paul had some things to say about tradition and those who called themselves God’s own but were not.

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; 9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. 10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev 2:8-10 (KJV)

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Rev 3:8-9 (KJV)


The Church of Rome has persecuted, fined, imprisoned, tortured, burned alive, buried alive, and straight up murdered countless millions of professed Christians throughout her history, all in defense of her traditions above and apart from scripture which her victims refused to acknowledge. Go to, put yourself into a trance, and seek unity with Rome. Your wasting your time trying to convince me there is nothing wrong with Spiritual Formation directed toward unity with Rome.

3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? Matt 15:3 (KJV)

Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Matt 15:6-9 (KJV)

6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. Mark 7:5-9 (KJV)


8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Col 2:7-8 (KJV)

Go to, seek unity with Rome and break God’s commandments by observing her traditions in their place. Go to, seek unity with Rome, and thus with the rudiments of this world also since Rome promotes and desires the same. I will have none of it.

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You haven't argued breathing techniques or mantras. You have simply argued that spiritual formation and spiritual disciplines are of the Devil. Because of your deep-seated hatred of all things Catholic, you paint with too broad a brush - and in so doing destroy your own argument. For repetition to be vain, it has to be well, vain. If a mother has a child in the hospital, how many times can she plead with God for his life in the same prayer? Once? Twice? Twenty times? How many repetitions equate to "vain?" I suspect the major issue here is not the number of repetitions but the purpose of the praying - to be seen by men. You simply, again, choose words and assume they mean the same thing everywhere. They do not.


To the contrary again, it is a fact that members of many false religions, including Roman Catholicism use breathing techniques and mantras to bring themselves into an altered state of mind in an attempt to come closer to God. There is no instruction in scripture to do anything of the sort. Nor has doing such lead any of the deceived to a conversion concerning a greater knowledge of truth in relation to God, but only steeps them further into their own chosen deceptions. Go to, join them in using their same techniques, I will have none of it. Seek unity with them through the same along with Rome, I will not.

The Divine Breath, Prana
The breathing techniques, pranayama, taught along with yoga are based not on physical laws, but on the spiritual idea of prana. Prana is, in Hinduism, the divine breath of life, infused throughout the universe. It is the cosmic breath with which man has become 'out of tune,' and, pranayama, like the asanas, is accompanied by certain psychomental phenomena, (Feuerstein, pp. 26, 27) Through the use of pranayama, it is believed that one is enhancing the flow of life force (Melton, p. 147). Breath control and breathing exercises often induce a light trance in the practitioner.
http://www.christiananswersforthenewage.org/Articles_Yoga.html

The Hindu Connection:
Meditation as taught and practiced today in the West originates from practices and beliefs of Hinduism and Buddhism. In Hinduism, the goal of meditation is to realize that one's personal identity is a barrier to the truth that the real self is part of the divine godhead, which is ultimate reality.1
The mind in both Hinduism & Buddhism is seen as part of the material body and therefore a barrier to spiritual enlightenment.2 Meditation is designed to bypass the mind, using special breathing techniques.3 The ultimate goal is samadhi with no cognition, or absorption into a state of pure consciousness through disengaging the mind and a loss of self-awareness and subject-object awareness4: "The mind which for so long stood between us and our true nature has been overcome."5 One of the most common ways this is done is through various forms of yoga, including the popular hatha yoga taught in the West.6 "Though their means may differ, all yogic paths seek to transcend duality in union" so that one's "mistaken belief in himself as a separate, unique individual apart from God will be overcome."7 Exhaling the breath is "the surrender of our ego" and the move from attachment to "non-attachment."8
This imported meditation is usually packaged as a way to relax or reduce stress. But this was never the purpose of meditation in its Hindu or Buddhist form. Sometimes taught with visualizations and breathing exercises, this "relaxation" exercise has many hidden dangers. The mind often goes into an altered state of consciousness, also known as a light trance or hypnotic state, during the meditation.9 The exercises are designed to bring this about. In such a state, rational judgment and discernment is suspended, and the mind is highly suggestible and open to any influences present. In one class the writer attended, a student who fell asleep was reprimanded because he would miss the "spiritual trip" intended by the exercise.
This state of mind is not the same as spontaneous daydreaming, quiet contemplation, or conscious, rational concentration. The euphoria or peace experienced by many at first is short-lived and deceptive. Instructors of these techniques who teach them as a spiritual discipline often warn students that psychic experiences and supernatural encounters are common, some of them frightening, and that the breathing techniques can be dangerous10. The effect for some people is similar to a drug trip. It is this state of mind during which one is supposed to contact guides from the spirit world.11
When another person guides one through a meditation, it is called guided meditation, guided imagery or guided visualization. This writer was first introduced to her spirit guide (called a spiritual master) via a guided meditation exercise. The class was told to repeat this same meditation for future contact with the spirit guide, and that at some point we would be able to contact the guide (or he/she contact us) without needing this process.
The Buddhist Connection:
Buddhist meditation (also called "mindfulness") taught in this country to Westerners is usually related to Tibetan Buddhism or to Zen Buddhism, an atheistic/agnostic religion. The goal is to empty the mind and become detached from feeling and thought, eventually realizing there is no individual self.12 This is also the goal for every waking moment; the meditation (Zen Buddhists usually just call it "sitting") is practice and preparation for that.13 In fact, the idea is to have no purpose at all, but just "to be in the moment" throughout life, with no evaluation or attachment.14 This originates from Buddha's teaching that desire causes all suffering.15 Following one's breathing during sitting is supposed to make the student realize that "You and I are just swinging doors."16 Tibetan Buddhism, being a more esoteric and mystical form of Buddhism, utilizes breath control and visualization to train the mind where it can focus on Sunyata, "the essential emptiness of the phenomenal world," and reach states where "the sense of experience ceases to exist." 17
While this idea is appealing to those who fear they are controlled by emotions and worry, the result of this detachment can be a temporary numbing or false peace. The detachment actually results from disengaging normal thoughts, emotions and desires. Although taught as a way to deal with stress, this mindfulness is but a thinly disguised form of Buddhist meditation.
Jesus said, "I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly" (John 10:10b). In the Psalms, we read the outpourings of the heart, both sad and joyful, and are comforted and uplifted by the solace found in God
The Occult Connection:
The late Sybil Leek, a well-known witch and psychic, wrote that a psychic, while concentrating on a crystal during a reading, induces a trance both in the client and in the psychic in order to release "dormant psychic awareness."18 Another writer on occult techniques emphasizes the need for centering (another term for meditation and getting in the trance state) and advises that centering "may become more important than the reading itself."19 When it comes to crystal healing, an expert urges the reader to use the crystal to help achieve "an altered state of mind to access information which you otherwise wouldn't know" and that this altered state is also called a "trance state" which can allow one to "'see' the future or past."20
The trance or meditative state is basic to the work of witches, psychics, sorcerers, ritual magicians,21 channelers, and is used in past life regressions. It is the same state of mind reached with meditation techniques taught today. Some cultures/groups use drugs to reach this state.
http://www.christiananswersforthenewage.org/Articles_Meditation.html


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The success of a "methodology" is dependent on a number of variables, not the least of which is the purpose and maturity of the practitioner. Warren and Hybels also encourage prayer in their churches. Is that methodology also suspect to you? No, what Hybels has lamented is not urging people to pray, or to grow closer to God, but that they focused on and confused large numbers and church attendance with spiritual maturity. Their erroneous focus says nothing about the utility of various methodologies when used appropriately. You confuse the two repeatedly.


Methodologies are nothing, regardless of variables or the maturity of the practitioners. Prayer is biblical, and all God’s people are admonished to practice it by faith in the one who created it. Breathing techniques and mantras are not biblical, and the methodologies employed or maturity of the practitioners mean nothing to God existing and developed outside of His guidance, teaching, or example in Christ.

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You again make assertions which are simply too simplistic. Perhaps you aren't aware that Pagans were praying before Israel did? Perhaps you aren't aware that Pagans assembled together before Israel did? Perhaps you are not aware that Pagans used rituals before Israel did? Everything you do has come from, or has been done by some Pagan before it was done in either Israel or the church. The simple fact that others do something is irrelevant when it comes to something that is effective or appropriate. Your "we can't do it because it wasn't invented here" is an intellectually empty argument.


Once again, you display a complete lack of faith in God’s word. Perhaps you are unaware that God created the world in six days and created the Sabbath on the seventh day to memorialize His creation as God to be worshiped by humanity. Perhaps you are unaware that there was no other God to be worshipped or to pray to until false religion entered the world quite some time after the fall of humanity. Perhaps you are unaware that the sacrificial system pertaining to Christ was initiated immediately after the fall, and practiced by God’s own in worship long before the Jews existed. Perhaps you are unaware that all false religion, worship, and prayer were preceded by the true. I suppose simple faith in the word of God is far to simplistic for you.

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What is propaganda is the baseless assertions, and appeals to emotional re-activity based on an "us" versus "them" approach. You have repeatedly said things are Satanic or of the occult without once offering any indication of the veracity of those assertions. That is simply propaganda methodology.


Blah  blah  blah says Rh.  If you want to deny the facts in relation to all the false religions involved in Spiritual Formation techniques and methodologies, which remain unenlightened in regards to the truth, and become even further steeped in deception through the practice of the same, go ahead. Don’t waste your time though, telling me such facts are untrue, and thus my assertions are baseless. Hog Wash. As far as I can tell, you are just someone who practices some of the shadier SP techniques, and are therefore here defending the same.

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I have never said that only Adventists perceive issues with your various topics. What I have said is your simple assertion that these things are Satanic are baseless. As baseless perhaps as basing an entire denomination on some woman's visions - while decrying others' visions. Can anyone say, "hypocrisy?"


Ah, the old EGW diversionary tactic. Here we are RH. Enlighten us. Which Doctrine of the SDA church came about through EGW? Surely you can show us, unless of course your assertion is baseless. This is baseless, that is baseless, whatever I say is baseless is baseless. More hogwash. Here are some more baseless utterings -

http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue91.htm#.Ug_GNX-jSSo

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_New-Age_meditation_centering

http://www.svchapel.org/resources/articles/133-spiritual-formation-movement/796-ignatius

Offline Amo

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Breathing techniques. You don't think breathing techniques are valid because they aren't in Scripture.
Do you feel the same about church buildings? How about Sunday School? How about "Seventh Day Adventists?"

Now your just grabbing straws. Thank you for admitting though, that there is no instruction from scripture to use breathing techniques or mantras to induce a trance in order to come closer to God.

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You have read the psalms, no? Do you know how the psalmist meditated on the Law? Do you know if he had his eyes shut? How about open? Perhaps he focused on a spot on the wall? Would you object to "eye techniques" just because they aren't mentioned?

More straws. If by meditate the scriptures meant bringing ones self to an altered state of mind, I’m sure they would have been more specific concerning the same. If this is really a necessary step in coming closer to God and truth, do you think God would have left such crucial instruction out of scripture? Why would He not conclusively state and reveal such an important practice concerning spiritual development unto salvation? Why would He leave us with the following testimony, if in fact there was something more and crucial that could be done by His people toward their spiritual development?

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Tim 3:14-17 (KJV)
 
What is such an admonition above if the Apostle knew in fact that those who used certain breathing and mantra techniques in meditation of the scriptures could attain a much higher level of spirituality? If that which has already been given to us in the scriptures is enough for the man of God to be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works without using any special breathing or mantra techniques, then what purpose does such really serve? Where did it come from if not from the scriptures, or any instruction from God or His prophets? Why is it practiced by almost all false religions, without leading them to the truth, but rather steeping them further into their already accepted deceptions?

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Do you know if the psalmist sat while meditating on the Law? Or maybe he stood? Perhaps he rocked back and forth while he stood? Maybe he wrote the words in the air with his finger while he meditated. Do you know? If you don't, how in the world do you know which posture to use while you meditate on the word of God? If somebody suggested that sitting, slightly reclined has helped thousands of people meditate, would you demand a Scriptural example of it?

Of course I don’t know exactly what he did. I do know however, exactly what he did not ever do. He never tried to tell anyone any specific breathing or mantra techniques to be used while meditating upon God’s word. Nor did any of the bible writers, or Christ Himself. None of them ever suggested meditation of God’s word by way of emptying ones mind of all thoughts, or concentrating on and controlling their breathing in this or that fashion, or repeating certain words or phrases over and over again until reaching an altered state of mind. God’s word is simply void of all such instruction, therefore the practice of such does not come to us via the instruction of God or His servants.

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Do you even know what breathing techniques are used, and to what purpose?

I do not know all the purposes or uses of breathing techniques, I do know however the testimony of many who have used such practices while members of false religions to induce themselves into a trance. Including members of my own family who became seriously involved in eastern religions and such meditations even to the point of out of body experiences. Call them liars if you wish, I see no reason to doubt their testimony. I have experienced many such things myself under the influence of many a mind altering drug, and I know that had nothing to so with God. Apart from this RH, there are many different breathing techniques used, and you yourself do not know which of them is being propagated or incorporated among the countless people practicing the same. Or do you suppose everyone is only doing exactly what you do, which you personally consider safe?

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I suspect not.

And yet, you have no compunction about declaring them unbiblical and Satanic.

Right Christian of you, huh?

The breathing techniques and mantras are used by one false religion after another. Will you deny that false religions are Satanic? Why should “Christians” employ the techniques of those involved in satanic false religions? If these techniques did not come from within true biblical religion, then they must have come from within the false religions that practice them. So yes, as a matter of fact it is right Christian of me to point this fact out. It is also right un-Christian of you to promote such practices without any recourse to there real source. Such is my view of the matter in any case.

Offline Amo

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What is amazing is that I could have made your argument much more effectively than you will ever hope to do. That's how I know you don't know what you're talking about, are relying on others' cut-and-pasted text, and re-issuing worn and baseless assertions. There are so many examples of weirdness in Christian practice and yet you have not provided even one concrete example of someone on the fringe.

You're just parroting hearsay.

But even those arguments would only represent the extreme reports and would not directly address the efficacy of spiritual formation, spiritual disciplines, or whatever it is you're calling contemplative spirituality.

Perhaps you should quit parroting yourself about others simply parroting, and move on to some real argument. There has been an awful lot of evidence presented on this board by myself and Hobie, which you simply ignore and will not address. How about proving these things false, rather than continuous accusations of parroting, and them having no base.

Offline Amo

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Hello?
What is meditation?
What specifically do you think is Satanic about meditation?

What is contemplation?
What specifically do you think is Satanic about contemplation?

What is spiritual formation?
What specifically do you think is Satanic about spiritual formation?

What are spiritual disciplines?
What specifically do you think is Satanic about spiritual disciplines?

Since there is obviously much variation regarding the same, why don’t you tell us what and how you practice the same, and we can go from there. We have already shared quite a bit concerning the dangerous aspects of that which is considered Spiritual Formation by many. Perhaps you practice none of this. We don’t know. On the other hand, while you choose to ignore or disbelieve the testimony of the many sources which have been supplied thus far regarding the dangers of the same, obviously we do not.

HRoberson

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Hello?
What is meditation?
What specifically do you think is Satanic about meditation?

What is contemplation?
What specifically do you think is Satanic about contemplation?

What is spiritual formation?
What specifically do you think is Satanic about spiritual formation?

What are spiritual disciplines?
What specifically do you think is Satanic about spiritual disciplines?

Since there is obviously much variation regarding the same, why don’t you tell us what and how you practice the same, and we can go from there. We have already shared quite a bit concerning the dangerous aspects of that which is considered Spiritual Formation by many. Perhaps you practice none of this. We don’t know. On the other hand, while you choose to ignore or disbelieve the testimony of the many sources which have been supplied thus far regarding the dangers of the same, obviously we do not.
Actually, up until yesterday you hadn't provided much of anything of substance. Perhaps, when I have a screen large enough to review your post. What Hobie and you posted has been nothing but hearsay, generalities, and baseless appeals to emotion and fear. You see, while I understand you think spiritual formation is dangerous, you have offered zero support for that assertion.

HRoberson

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What is amazing is that I could have made your argument much more effectively than you will ever hope to do. That's how I know you don't know what you're talking about, are relying on others' cut-and-pasted text, and re-issuing worn and baseless assertions. There are so many examples of weirdness in Christian practice and yet you have not provided even one concrete example of someone on the fringe.

You're just parroting hearsay.

But even those arguments would only represent the extreme reports and would not directly address the efficacy of spiritual formation, spiritual disciplines, or whatever it is you're calling contemplative spirituality.

Perhaps you should quit parroting yourself about others simply parroting, and move on to some real argument. There has been an awful lot of evidence presented on this board by myself and Hobie, which you simply ignore and will not address. How about proving these things false, rather than continuous accusations of parroting, and them having no base.
I'm not arguing; you are. Or rather attempting to. My observations have been about thecstyle and (lack of) substance in the propaganda that has been posted. The "evidence" you think you are offering is simply the sources of you cut and paste vacuous assertions. Do you think you could find somecsubstance? Oh I don't know, maybe answering thecquestions with something of substance about that topic? Not simply that Warren advocates something, but some actualmsubstance about the thing Warren advocates? Otherwise, you are just posting hearsay accusations.

HRoberson

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This will be fun...let's look at the latest installment. We will do this one paragraph-ish at a time so as not to create a post that is fourteen screens long.

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Breathing techniques. You don't think breathing techniques are valid because they aren't in Scripture.
Do you feel the same about church buildings? How about Sunday School? How about "Seventh Day Adventists?"

Now your just grabbing straws. Thank you for admitting though, that there is no instruction from scripture to use breathing techniques or mantras to induce a trance in order to come closer to God.

Do you see how this works? Having offered nothing of substance, they accuse those who make note of their lack of substance of grabbing at straws. This is an attempt at redirection. If there was ever any real substance to their accusations, they could simply post that substantive material. In fact, they attempt this dodge.

You will notice that they also expand the topic to include things they expect that you will recoil from - mantras and trances in this case. It is they who have the straws in their hands, not those who spot their propaganda style. They have yet to tell us why any breathing technique is Satanic - they just want you to take their word (often just their implication) for it.

Unfortunately, Peter was in a trance up on that house top. So, despite their attempt to scare you, they have put their foot in it - trances are Biblical, attested by at least one Apostle. So, they haven't told us why we should be afraid of breath techniques, they just want to tie them to things they think are cultic. Still nothing about why or how breathing techniques could be sinful, they just want to avoid discussing their lack of substance and so they attempt this dodge.

More to follow.


HRoberson

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This one will take a bit of extended commentary. Please bear with me.

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You have read the psalms, no? Do you know how the psalmist meditated on the Law? Do you know if he had his eyes shut? How about open? Perhaps he focused on a spot on the wall? Would you object to "eye techniques" just because they aren't mentioned?

More straws.
See my previous comment about straws. The fact is, they really don't know what postures, eye positions, or anything else the psalmist used. They just know that they aren't comfortable with them and so whatever Hybels and Warren are advocating must be Satanic. The point is, none of these things matter in and of themselves. How you meditate is irrelevant to a large extent, just as Jesus' postures in the Garden. Did he kneel? Stand? Rest on a rock? Who knows, and who cares? Well, these people do apparently. If Hybels suggests that you might sit while meditating, with your eyes closed, well that must be Satanic because Hybels advocates it.

See? Straws, and still no substance. Just more attempts at redirection.

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If by meditate the scriptures meant bringing ones self to an altered state of mind, I’m sure they would have been more specific concerning the same.
I don't know, why? If they had been more specific, we'd argue over just how well you were complying with Scripture while you meditate. "You must sit with your left leg over the right, because that's the way Paul did it!" Or perhaps, "Oh no, Peter kept his eyes open and Pagans closed their eyes, so we have to keep our eyes open or else we're worshiping Pagan gods."

Please.

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If this is really a necessary step in coming closer to God and truth, do you think God would have left such crucial instruction out of scripture?
Is it necessary? Do you see what they are doing here? They live in a bi-polar world. Either something (you want to do) is necessary or it's completely superfluous. And if it's superfluous, then it must be unBiblical and Satanic. I suppose we could ask "where is the Biblical example of requiring a necessitated Quiet Time, complete with special areas in your house, prayer notebooks, and timers? The fact is, the Bible is notoriously silent on a lot of the "hows." Should we sing four-part harmony, or just Gregorian Chants? Should we chant the Jewish psalms to Jewish meter or can we rearrange them into 21st Century style? We are pretty sure that no one read silently in the early centuries; must we all read out loud while reading Scripture?

You see how silly this gets if we outlaw everything that isn't necessary (according to them)?

And yet, still no substance about what they don't like. Just questions and redirection.

HRoberson

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Why would He not conclusively state and reveal such an important practice concerning spiritual development unto salvation? Why would He leave us with the following testimony, if in fact there was something more and crucial that could be done by His people toward their spiritual development?

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Tim 3:14-17 (KJV)

Well, this certainly sounds wise, doesn't it? Unfortunately, it has nothing to do with the discussion. What we are being encouraged to do in this passage is exactly what our propagandists don't want you to do - know the content of Scripture inside and out. And how do mere mortals do this? By meditating, using meditation tools.

Do you see again, that this is redirection. No one disagrees that disciples should know Scripture, but the propagandist attempts to drive a wedge between knowing Scripture and ways of knowing it that he doesn't like. This is, in fact, a classic strawman argument. I simply don't believe that Warren and Hybels argue that people should not know Scripture, and in any event, the propagandists haven't provided any substance that would support that claim. So this passage is pointless in this discussion.
 
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What is such an admonition above if the Apostle knew in fact that those who used certain breathing and mantra techniques in meditation of the scriptures could attain a much higher level of spirituality?
We will review this one in reverse order. Is there no difference in the spirituality of various disciples? I think we can safely admit there is. What the Apostles want is for all disciples to come to the fullness of God. Yes, there is a progression; there is a difference between babes in Christ and those who are more mature.

Now, the first part of this statement again wonders about the "how." The answer, quite simply is the same answer concerning the "hows." Methods change over time (see comments on Quiet Times and whatnot). But since they have brought up the topic twice now, let's ask the obvious question: what's wrong with a mantra and breathing techniques? You see, they have tried to turn the tables again, but it won't work. They haven't demonstrated that mantras and breathing techniques are Satanic. This is the issue - they have charged that the things Warren and Hybles advocate must be Satanic or at least Cultish because.....well, we don't know the because. They have simply made the accusation and provided no support whatever.
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 19, 2013 - 00:00:07 by HRoberson »

HRoberson

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If that which has already been given to us in the scriptures is enough for the man of God to be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works without using any special breathing or mantra techniques, then what purpose does such really serve?
Again, more redirection. The passage is speaking about the content of Scripture, not the best ways to incorporate it into your life. Those methods are individually determined and not outlawed just because our propagandists don't like Hybels and Warren.

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Where did it come from if not from the scriptures, or any instruction from God or His prophets?
Where did four-part harmony come from?

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Why is it practiced by almost all false religions, without leading them to the truth, but rather steeping them further into their already accepted deceptions?
This is a red herring on which we have commented before. The fact that Pagans wrote poetry about their gods does not mean the Psalter is a Pagan book, or that reading it is Satanic. It simply does not establish anything that Jewish and Christian religious practices are common among any or all other religions. I say it again - everything you experience on Sunday (OK, OK, Saturday) has been done already by Pagan religions.

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Do you know if the psalmist sat while meditating on the Law? Or maybe he stood? Perhaps he rocked back and forth while he stood? Maybe he wrote the words in the air with his finger while he meditated. Do you know? If you don't, how in the world do you know which posture to use while you meditate on the word of God? If somebody suggested that sitting, slightly reclined has helped thousands of people meditate, would you demand a Scriptural example of it?

Of course I don’t know exactly what he did.
No, no you don't in fact. But you are willing to set yourself up as judge about how other people do so.

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I do know however, exactly what he did not ever do. He never tried to tell anyone any specific breathing or mantra techniques to be used while meditating upon God’s word.
Let's admit that he never gives any instruction about "how." So, what you do is largely irrelevant. If a mantra helps you, on what basis do tell someone they cannot use one? You haven't told us that; you simply assume it. The problem is that you are correct - you aren't told in Scripture what to allow or not allow. You make up your prohibitions and then try to scare people into avoiding what you don't like.

What was that about straws?

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Nor did any of the bible writers, or Christ Himself. None of them ever suggested meditation of God’s word by way of emptying ones mind of all thoughts, or concentrating on and controlling their breathing in this or that fashion, or repeating certain words or phrases over and over again until reaching an altered state of mind. God’s word is simply void of all such instruction, therefore the practice of such does not come to us via the instruction of God or His servants.
Yes, well, see the comments about the fact that we aren't told any specifics about how in 2013, we're supposed to meditate on the word of God. So, though Jesus never told us specifics, you feel comfortable speaking for him and outlawing what you don't like.

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Do you even know what breathing techniques are used, and to what purpose?
I do not know all the purposes or uses of breathing techniques,
Well see - then what are you arguing about? You don't even know your topic except by hearsay! Hearsay from Satanists of all people! My God, man.

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I do know however the testimony of many who have used such practices while members of false religions to induce themselves into a trance.
Must we review again the logical point that just because Pagans sing to their deity doesn't mean that Christians who sing to theirs are involved in the occult? Will you ever grasp this point?

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Including members of my own family who became seriously involved in eastern religions and such meditations even to the point of out of body experiences. Call them liars if you wish, I see no reason to doubt their testimony.
Why would I call them liars? I have no doubt that Pagan religions do all sorts of things. But again, just because Buddhists chant doesn't mean you can't.

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I have experienced many such things myself under the influence of many a mind altering drug, and I know that had nothing to so with God.
Now we're equating breathing techniques with drug use. Wonderful. Do you see how this continues? If he did these things while using drugs, it must mean that if you do them, you must be doing something illicit.

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Apart from this RH, there are many different breathing techniques used, and you yourself do not know which of them is being propagated or incorporated among the countless people practicing the same.
This is simply a assertion, actually. You've already admitted that you don't have the slightest idea about breathing techniques; much less whether there are one, three, or seventy-five. But it doesn't matter how many there are because you have yet to tell us why their use is something suspect. You simply don't know - other than that some Satanist you know may have used one or two in the past.

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Or do you suppose everyone is only doing exactly what you do, which you personally consider safe?
What I do or don't do is irrelevant. The point is not about what I do, but your baseless assertion that breathing techniques are inherently Satanic, and Cultic.

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I suspect not.

And yet, you have no compunction about declaring them unbiblical and Satanic.

Right Christian of you, huh?

The breathing techniques and mantras are used by one false religion after another. Will you deny that false religions are Satanic? Why should “Christians” employ the techniques of those involved in satanic false religions? If these techniques did not come from within true biblical religion, then they must have come from within the false religions that practice them. So yes, as a matter of fact it is right Christian of me to point this fact out. It is also right un-Christian of you to promote such practices without any recourse to there real source. Such is my view of the matter in any case.
This entire paragraph is a rehash of an earlier one and the propagandist makes the exact same logical mistake. Because he has admitted to having no first hand knowledge of anything he rails against, he assumes that because Buddhists do something it must be Satanic. This despite the simple fact of history that both Judaism and Christianity are rather young religions. Everything Adventists do on Saturday has been done by some Pagan sometime in the past.

What is not Christian of you is to accuse fellow Christians of being Satanic simply because they might do something that has the same name as something your Satanic practitioners did. This despite admitting to having absolutely no information about what you're talking about.

You feel no inhibition about labeling Warren and Hybels essentially purveyors of Satanic ritual even while acknowledging you know nothing about the topic. No, that isn't Christian. It is classic emotional propaganda.
« Last Edit: Sun Aug 18, 2013 - 17:23:15 by HRoberson »

Offline trifecta

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Let me just add . . . that defining oneself as not doing what your opponent does is never a strong argument.

In old Christianity, they felt free to adopt positive things from their society and place them into the church (at least in some way).

Protestants did it to, adding words to popular songs of the time to make them church-worthy.  (No copyright laws then).

Further, the monastic movement has been using mediation and even breathing techniques for more than 1700 years!
 

HRoberson

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This is a Roman effort at unity. Why, pray tell, should they not desire it? Let's use your same question: If you thought your church was The Church, would it be better just to write off all those Protestants, or should they seek unity? Hmm....? The fact that you don't like them; that you have a knee-jerk reaction against anything they might do is irrelevant. If both the Catholics and all the Protestants were praying for unity, who's to say that the Protestant version wouldn't prevail? Sounds like lack of faith to me.


Lack of faith in what, you, or Romanism?

God. That's to whom you pray, isn't it?

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Obviously not the scriptures which plainly teach that God’s people are not to seek unity with those who believe and practice a lie.

What sort of lie do you think is meant in Scripture? Any old lie, like oh, which day to worship God? You are stretching the meaning of Scripture just a bit here.

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To the contrary HR, the lack of faith is on your part concerning the teachings and instruction of the Holy scriptures. They ought to being praying for the acceptance of the truths of God’s word, which acceptance would produce true biblical unity, not unity by way of compromise in ignoring disregard of the truth.

See, this is what I mean. You assume that if every Christian were to pray for unity as God wants, that somehow these evil Romans would prevail in their subjection of all of Christendom. Yes, that sounds like lack of faith in God to me.

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The bible teaches that we should seek to be at peace with all men, not to be in unity with all men. There is a major difference between the two.
Jesus' high priestly prayer is for unity - that they all be one. Do you propose to make yourself the arbiter of another's faith, or his acceptance by God?

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Date:14th century
I can't resist this one. You're right, unity is clearly not a Biblical concept because the word didn't even exist until the 14th Century. Probably the fault of all those KJV-only folks just mucking the whole thing up with a modern word.

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1 a : the quality or state of not being multiple  : ONENESS  b (1) : a definite amount taken as one or for which 1 is made to stand in calculation  *in a table of natural sines the radius of the circle is regarded as unity*  (2) : IDENTITY ELEMENT
2 a : a condition of harmony  : ACCORD  b : continuity without deviation or change (as in purpose or action)
3 a : the quality or state of being made one  : UNIFICATION  b : a combination or ordering of parts in a literary or artistic production that constitutes a whole or promotes an undivided total effect;  also   : the resulting singleness of effect or symmetry and consistency of style and character
4 : a totality of related parts  : an entity that is a complex or systematic whole
5 : any of three principles of dramatic structure derived by French classicists from Aristotle's Poetics and requiring a play to have a single action represented as occurring in one place and within one day
6 capitalized   : a 20th century American religious movement that emphasizes spiritual sources of health and prosperity

Main Entry:1peace
Pronunciation:*p*s
Function:noun
Etymology:Middle English pees, from Anglo-French pes, pees, from Latin pac-, pax; akin to Latin pacisci to agree — more at  PACT
Date:12th century

1 : a state of tranquillity or quiet: as  a : freedom from civil disturbance  b : a state of security or order within a community provided for by law or custom  *a breach of the peace*
2 : freedom from disquieting or oppressive thoughts or emotions
3 : harmony in personal relations
4 a : a state or period of mutual concord between governments  b : a pact or agreement to end hostilities between those who have been at war or in a state of enmity
5 —  used interjectionally to ask for silence or calm or as a greeting or farewell
  –at peace : in a state of concord or tranquillity

I'm not sure why you posted these definitions, actually. Jesus prayed for unity. I don't think he was praying for the 20th Century version of prosperity, so that entry is irrelevant.

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14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. 2 Cor 6:14-18 (KJV)

Right. Now, if we could just figure out what this has to do with Christian unity and Jesus' desire for it, maybe we could discuss something about it.

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There is a distinct difference between a church that admits it uses both text and traditional teaching, and unbelievers. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean they're unbelievers. You are misusing the passage, which is a common tactic of folks who don't actually have a cogent argument.


Your right there is a big difference between the two. The unbelievers are more just before God than those who put tradition which contradicts the word of God above the same. They are far more dangerous than non believers. Professing to worship the God of scripture out of one side of their mouth, but believing and practicing the worship of other god’s out of the other side of their mouths. Christ and Paul had some things to say about tradition and those who called themselves God’s own but were not.

Does your church use tradition for anything? Oh, how about church buildings, or the use of writings by a prophetess? Are those in Scripture?

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8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; 9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. 10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev 2:8-10 (KJV)

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Rev 3:8-9 (KJV)

I'm not sure how these support your point, but they're nice passages.

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The Church of Rome has persecuted, fined, imprisoned, tortured, burned alive, buried alive, and straight up murdered countless millions of professed Christians throughout her history, all in defense of her traditions above and apart from scripture which her victims refused to acknowledge.

I'm not sure what the Crusades have to do with 2013. Perhaps you could help me figure that out. How long are Protestants going to point at events 500 years ago and say, "see, I told you so!" That is not very healthy, actually. Is what they have done any more unChristian than what you do by accusing Warren and Hybels of spreading Satanic practices? I'm thinking, "not really."

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Go to, put yourself into a trance,

Why?

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and seek unity with Rome.

I already have it. They just don't know it.

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Your wasting your time trying to convince me there is nothing wrong with Spiritual Formation directed toward unity with Rome.

See, this is where you err. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. What I am doing is offering an alternative description of your accusations and your behavior for those who might come here and read the baseless rants. I am, in fact, using you simply as a foil to illustrate the silliness of your views and those like you who make accusations of others while acknowledging that you actually don't know anything about your topic.

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3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? Matt 15:3 (KJV)

Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Matt 15:6-9 (KJV)

6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. Mark 7:5-9 (KJV)


8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Col 2:7-8 (KJV)

You have very little grasp of these passages, having conflated them with your disdain for Catholics.

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Go to, seek unity with Rome and break God’s commandments by observing her traditions in their place.

As I said, I already have unity with every Christian; some of them just don't know it. What commandments are broken through spiritual formation? You have said that you don't really know what it is, so how do you know that breaks commandments?
The answer: You don't. This is just another baseless assertion.

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Go to, seek unity with Rome, and thus with the rudiments of this world also since Rome promotes and desires the same. I will have none of it.
That's entirely up to you. The problem is that you have no idea about how to make your point; you use way too many jumps in logic, confusing and conflating ideas about others and their practices so that you have as much conceded that your own religious practices are completely Pagan themselves.

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You haven't argued breathing techniques or mantras. You have simply argued that spiritual formation and spiritual disciplines are of the Devil. Because of your deep-seated hatred of all things Catholic, you paint with too broad a brush - and in so doing destroy your own argument. For repetition to be vain, it has to be well, vain. If a mother has a child in the hospital, how many times can she plead with God for his life in the same prayer? Once? Twice? Twenty times? How many repetitions equate to "vain?" I suspect the major issue here is not the number of repetitions but the purpose of the praying - to be seen by men. You simply, again, choose words and assume they mean the same thing everywhere. They do not.


To the contrary again, it is a fact that members of many false religions, including Roman Catholicism use breathing techniques and mantras to bring themselves into an altered state of mind in an attempt to come closer to God.

Let's say this again for those who might read your rants......commonality of practice does not mean by any stretch of the imagination, that anyone is doing anything un-Christian.

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There is no instruction in scripture to do anything of the sort.

There is precious little instruction in Scripture about "how," but that hasn't kept the entire Evangelical world from making a killing on "Quiet Times." What is your point here?

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Nor has doing such lead any of the deceived to a conversion concerning a greater knowledge of truth in relation to God, but only steeps them further into their own chosen deceptions.

Of course, this is irrelevant. What you haven't demonstrated is that their use has not assisted any actual disciple in growing in faith, or that they necessarily lead disciples into Satanism.

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Go to, join them in using their same techniques, I will have none of it. Seek unity with them through the same along with Rome, I will not.
Well, that's your call I suspect. But what I do or don't do has nothing to do with your inability to logically argue your point.

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The Divine Breath, Prana
The breathing techniques, pranayama, taught along with yoga are based not on physical laws, but on the spiritual idea of prana. Prana is, in Hinduism, the divine breath of life, infused throughout the universe. It is the cosmic breath with which man has become 'out of tune,' and, pranayama, like the asanas, is accompanied by certain psychomental phenomena, (Feuerstein, pp. 26, 27) Through the use of pranayama, it is believed that one is enhancing the flow of life force (Melton, p. 147). Breath control and breathing exercises often induce a light trance in the practitioner.
http://www.christiananswersforthenewage.org/Articles_Yoga.html

The Hindu Connection:
Meditation as taught and practiced today in the West originates from practices and beliefs of Hinduism and Buddhism. In Hinduism, the goal of meditation is to realize that one's personal identity is a barrier to the truth that the real self is part of the divine godhead, which is ultimate reality.1
The mind in both Hinduism & Buddhism is seen as part of the material body and therefore a barrier to spiritual enlightenment.2 Meditation is designed to bypass the mind, using special breathing techniques.3 The ultimate goal is samadhi with no cognition, or absorption into a state of pure consciousness through disengaging the mind and a loss of self-awareness and subject-object awareness4: "The mind which for so long stood between us and our true nature has been overcome."5 One of the most common ways this is done is through various forms of yoga, including the popular hatha yoga taught in the West.6 "Though their means may differ, all yogic paths seek to transcend duality in union" so that one's "mistaken belief in himself as a separate, unique individual apart from God will be overcome."7 Exhaling the breath is "the surrender of our ego" and the move from attachment to "non-attachment."8

Again, the fact that Pagans may do something has no bearing on whether the generic thing has any use in Christendom. This is one of your failures in logic, that you keep asserting as though if you say it enough it will become logical. It will not.
 
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This imported meditation is usually packaged as a way to relax or reduce stress. But this was never the purpose of meditation in its Hindu or Buddhist form.

They're actually very good for relaxation and whatever the Buddhists or Hindis do with them has no bearing on whether people wracked with anxiety should or should not use them.

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Sometimes taught with visualizations and breathing exercises, this "relaxation" exercise has many hidden dangers. The mind often goes into an altered state of consciousness, also known as a light trance or hypnotic state, during the meditation.9 The exercises are designed to bring this about. In such a state, rational judgment and discernment is suspended, and the mind is highly suggestible and open to any influences present. In one class the writer attended, a student who fell asleep was reprimanded because he would miss the "spiritual trip" intended by the exercise.
This state of mind is not the same as spontaneous daydreaming, quiet contemplation,

Apparently you have read right past this. Contemplation, just as breathing techniques, has a varied number of definitions. But despite this very clear passage, you condemn contemplation out right.

OK, more later.

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Methodologies are nothing, regardless of variables or the maturity of the practitioners.
Then what's your problem? The fact is, if you are praying to YHWH, it doesn't matter what methodology you use. Or, do you propose to tell us the Biblically-accepted forms, postures, and methods of prayer? Probably not, since you have no idea how Abraham prayed.

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Prayer is biblical, and all God’s people are admonished to practice it by faith in the one who created it. Breathing techniques and mantras are not biblical,
The question isn't whether they are found in Scripture, but rather, whether their use is by definition Satanic, which is what you charge.

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and the methodologies employed or maturity of the practitioners mean nothing to God existing and developed outside of His guidance, teaching, or example in Christ.
You're right, of course. I suspect God doesn't care how you sing, whether you do so in the same manner as Pagans or not. As long as you sing. Similarly, God doesn't care how you pray as long as you pray.

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You again make assertions which are simply too simplistic. Perhaps you aren't aware that Pagans were praying before Israel did? Perhaps you aren't aware that Pagans assembled together before Israel did? Perhaps you are not aware that Pagans used rituals before Israel did? Everything you do has come from, or has been done by some Pagan before it was done in either Israel or the church. The simple fact that others do something is irrelevant when it comes to something that is effective or appropriate. Your "we can't do it because it wasn't invented here" is an intellectually empty argument.

Once again, you display a complete lack of faith in God’s word. Perhaps you are unaware that God created the world in six days and created the Sabbath on the seventh day to memorialize His creation as God to be worshiped by humanity.
I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Actually, the first mention of the Sabbath is one of rest, not worship. That comes much later. In any event, what does this have to do with the "how?" Shall we continue to use animal sacrifices too?

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Perhaps you are unaware that there was no other God to be worshipped or to pray to until false religion entered the world quite some time after the fall of humanity.
I see what you're trying to do here. You think that because Pagans came some time after Adam, that they couldn't have been "first." That is simply silly. God doesn't give Adam worship rules having to do with "how." The how comes much later, when it's written down by Moses. But even then, God doesn't tell us "how" to pray, or that we must sing differently than Pagans, or that in fact, Pagan poetry came before the Psalter. The point here is that Pagans do a multitude of the same things you do on Saturdays. Simple commonality is irrelevant.

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Perhaps you are unaware that the sacrificial system pertaining to Christ was initiated immediately after the fall, and practiced by God’s own in worship long before the Jews existed.
Again, so what?

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Perhaps you are unaware that all false religion, worship, and prayer were preceded by the true. I suppose simple faith in the word of God is far to simplistic for you.
I suspect that any of the "hows" may or may not have been done first by the true. We aren't discussing whether worship of YHWH was done before worship of Ba'al, we're discussing whether your assertion that commonality is by definition condemning is a logical conclusion. Simply, it is not.

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What is propaganda is the baseless assertions, and appeals to emotional re-activity based on an "us" versus "them" approach. You have repeatedly said things are Satanic or of the occult without once offering any indication of the veracity of those assertions. That is simply propaganda methodology.

Blah  blah  blah says Rh.
Yes, if you can't mount a logical argument for your view, and especially if you've admitted to having no first hand knowledge of anything you are condemning, that your final fall back position is "blah, blah, blah."

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If you want to deny the facts in relation to all the false religions involved in Spiritual Formation techniques and methodologies, which remain unenlightened in regards to the truth, and become even further steeped in deception through the practice of the same, go ahead. Don’t waste your time though, telling me such facts are untrue, and thus my assertions are baseless.
Umm...you're the one who has admitted to not knowing what you're talking about, not me. It is you who have made assertions about Warren and Hybels without having the slightest idea about the topic. All you know is that Pagans sing and therefore, Christians who sing must be Satanic cultists. That is the sum of your argument.

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Hog Wash. As far as I can tell, you are just someone who practices some of the shadier SP techniques, and are therefore here defending the same.
Another propaganda technique. Let's ignore the fact that your arguments have included no substance, that you have admitted to not knowing what you're talking about, and that your use of logic is suspect at best. We would expect such an ad hominem comment because this is what propagandists do - attack the person of your opponent, attempting to distract the discussion from your lack of substance to your opponent's alleged failings.

You guys have this propaganda stuff down pretty well.

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I have never said that only Adventists perceive issues with your various topics. What I have said is your simple assertion that these things are Satanic are baseless. As baseless perhaps as basing an entire denomination on some woman's visions - while decrying others' visions. Can anyone say, "hypocrisy?"

Ah, the old EGW diversionary tactic. Here we are RH. Enlighten us. Which Doctrine of the SDA church came about through EGW? Surely you can show us, unless of course your assertion is baseless. This is baseless, that is baseless, whatever I say is baseless is baseless. More hogwash.
Did I say she made up your doctrine? No. What I said was, you accept her visions and her pronouncements. In fact, the most popular representative of your movement is that prophetess. You accept your own prophetess and visionary, but condemn anyone else who might do so.

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You again make assertions which are simply too simplistic. Perhaps you aren't aware that Pagans were praying before Israel did? Perhaps you aren't aware that Pagans assembled together before Israel did? Perhaps you are not aware that Pagans used rituals before Israel did? Everything you do has come from, or has been done by some Pagan before it was done in either Israel or the church. The simple fact that others do something is irrelevant when it comes to something that is effective or appropriate. Your "we can't do it because it wasn't invented here" is an intellectually empty argument.

Once again, you display a complete lack of faith in God’s word.
You haven't used any of God's word that is applicable to your argument.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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HR,

Mantras/chanting with controlled breathing utilize methodology that calls for the practitioner to clear their mind and hold a single thought or phrase to the exclusion of all else.  This makes the mind sensitive and open to suggestion, thereby increasing the chances of some form of ecstatic experience.  That such a practice is called meditation I find ironic, since true meditation implies an active mind considering the thing and putting it through various scenarios to test it.

Consider how the Bible tells us to meditate (and yes it does tell us how to do so):

Joshua 1:8
This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

Psalms 119 is the Bible's master text on the subject of meditation.  Perhaps a read of the Bible's longest chapter is also in order?

Now you have an argument of some substance to address, I think.  But if not, then I'll offer this as well - Harry Potter practices occlumency, so it must be EVIL!!!  ::noworries::

Jarrod

HRoberson

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HR,

Mantras/chanting with controlled breathing utilize methodology that calls for the practitioner to clear their mind and hold a single thought or phrase to the exclusion of all else.  This makes the mind sensitive and open to suggestion, thereby increasing the chances of some form of ecstatic experience.  That such a practice is called meditation I find ironic, since true meditation implies an active mind considering the thing and putting it through various scenarios to test it.

Consider how the Bible tells us to meditate (and yes it does tell us how to do so):

Joshua 1:8
This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

Psalms 119 is the Bible's master text on the subject of meditation.  Perhaps a read of the Bible's longest chapter is also in order?

Now you have an argument of some substance to address, I think.  But if not, then I'll offer this as well - Harry Potter practices occlumency, so it must be EVIL!!!  ::noworries::

Jarrod
Thank you, but really my intent is not to defend any particular practice but to illustrate the uninformed (admittedly so), reactive, and condemnatory accusations against whole classes of practice, anything labeled spiritual formation, and anything associated with Hybels and Warren.

The point of clearing the mind is to quiet the every day chatter, the multitudinous competitors to speaking to and hearing God. If the mind is clear, then it is possible, in a theoretical perspective that all sorts of things might come to mind - but where is the report that Christian practitioners report that happening?. That by itself however, does not make the practice Satanic, nor does it obviate the considerable benefits that may come from it.

Are there other practices which are open to being taken over, without regard to God? Any group of people, especially those led by a strong leader are subject to being controlled. Even supposed intellectual argumentation can be used to teach "another gospel." But we don't claim that church attendance by definition is Satanic, nor do we claim intellectual argumentaion to be. Simply it remains that the fact that someone might abuse a thing does not imply, much less necessitate that the thing is not beneficial, should be avoided, and/or Satanic.

The problem with spiritual formation is that we have accepted a "spooky" concept of it to adulterate what it actually is. As a result, our reactions to it - using the broadest brush possible - is akin to paranoia. This despite that we know very little about it. And of course, little knowledge and a dose of fear generally produce paranoid behaviors including generalized distrust and condemnation of others as our first response.

Within mainstream spiritual formation there is an understood difference between meditation and contemplation. Meditation may well involve active thought processes on a number of topics but is largely concerned with masticating Scripture. Contemplation in its strict sense, moves toward silence of the mind and waiting in the presence of God. It is, in fact a state of watchful prayer; of being fully present and yielded to God.

Joshua simply tells us that hGod wants us to meditate, not specifically how and the same is true with the poetry. The most we can get from these as to how to meditate is that we will read the Jewish Law out loud. Are we limited to that method?  Can we stand up, sit down, can we write it down in a notebook, can we pause and close our eyes, or maybe having read something sublime just stop and have some time sitting with God? The simple answer is that we can do all those "hows" despite their not being spelled out for us. Doing them does not make one Satanic.
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 19, 2013 - 10:22:29 by HRoberson »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Joshua simply tells us that hGod wants us to meditate, not specifically how and the same is true with the poetry. The most we can get from these as to how to meditate is that we will read the Jewish Law out loud. Are we limited to that method?  Can we stand up, sit down, can we write it down in a notebook, can we pause and close our eyes, or maybe having read something sublime just stop and have some time sitting with God? The simple answer is that we can do all those "hows" despite their not being spelled out for us. Doing them does not make one Satanic.
It says quite a bit more than that, and is quite specific.  Maybe you should undertake that reading of Psalm 119?  Don't forget about parallelism in Hebrew poetry...

Jarrod

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...
Too terse. Apologies.
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 21, 2013 - 22:54:05 by HRoberson »

Offline Amo

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Just a few more internet sites regarding the issue at hand.

http://www.wikihow.com/Do-Centering-Prayer

http://www.cpt.org/files/WS%20-%20Centering%20Prayer.pdf

http://www.kyrie.com/cp/guidelines_for_centering_prayer.htm

Tarot and Spirituality: Looking To The Cards in Contemplation. Small | Large


Contemplation and Hu-chant Small | Large


http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/contemplation.htm

http://www.emory.edu/religions&humanspirit/Religion%20pages/Contemplative%20Studies.htm

http://instituteforspiritualformation.wordpress.com/

http://journals.sfu.ca/rpfs/index.php/rpfs/article/viewFile/287/286

http://www.religiousworlds.com/mystic/forming.html

http://www.desertrenewal.org/rrc/news/FrPatHawk_article1.pdf.pdf

Comtemplative Prayer Small | Large


http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/006/contemplative-narloch.htm

http://www.catholicmediacoalition.org/centering_prayer_enneagram_pagan.htm

http://youthapologeticstraining.com/what-is-wicca-13-magick-spells-and-a-warning-to-the-church-episode-139/

http://www.wayoflife.org/database/contemplative.html

http://www.netplaces.com/wicca-witchcraft/meditation-and-visualization/different-types-of-meditation.htm

http://studyingprayer.com/2012/12/31/whats-satan-up-to-regarding-our-prayers/

http://studyingprayer.com/2013/01/07/seven-of-the-devils-servants-false-teachers-that-are-trying-to-pervert-our-prayers/






HRoberson

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 ::whistle::You have offered no new support for your view. In fact, having offered simply another mishmash of sites that use common words, you have simply undermined your case even further. You seem to have not grasped the lack of logic or intellectual discipline present in this and your previous posts.

I will offer one example: it simply is irrelevant if Muslims do something they call Contemplation. Muslims also pray, should we use that to prohibit Christian prayer?

You're going to have to do better.
« Last Edit: Sun Aug 25, 2013 - 00:24:45 by HRoberson »

Offline Amo

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::whistle::You have offered no new support for your view. In fact, having offered simply another mishmash of sites that use common words, you have simply undermined your case even further. You seem to have not grasped the lack of logic or intellectual discipline present in this and your previous posts.

I will offer one example: it simply is irrelevant if Muslims do something they call Contemplation. Muslim also pray, should we use that to prohibit Christian prayer?

You're going to have to do better.

I don't have to do anything. You are free to believe, practice and defend whatever you wish. Denying that the concerns of others relating to the unhealthy connections of Spiritual formation and contemplative prayer with the many and various false religions of this world has any validity, will never make it so. The bible is quite clear that before the return of Christ there will be a unification of humanities nations and religions in rebellion against God's authority. Spiritual formation and contemplative prayer incorporate techniques and methodologies common among the many and various false religions of this world. Incorporating the same within "Christianity" is definitely opening the door to greater opportunity for this unification to take place even among professed Christians. Not to mention opening the minds of professed Christians up to satanic influences by the emptying of their minds of all thoughts, or altered states by way of controlled breathing or chanting exercises, none of which the bible condones.  Never mind of course either, the testimony of many a converted Christian who once practiced all the same while members of false religions in pursuit of, and actually obtaining supernatural experiences. You can call all of this baseless if you wish, but it will not make it so.


HRoberson

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::whistle::You have offered no new support for your view. In fact, having offered simply another mishmash of sites that use common words, you have simply undermined your case even further. You seem to have not grasped the lack of logic or intellectual discipline present in this and your previous posts.

I will offer one example: it simply is irrelevant if Muslims do something they call Contemplation. Muslim also pray, should we use that to prohibit Christian prayer?

You're going to have to do better.

I don't have to do anything.
Of course you don't. You can let your own evidence of your lack of logic and propagandistic appeals to ill-informed emotion stand here all by itself. Given your track record, I expect that is exactly what you will do.

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You are free to believe, practice and defend whatever you wish.
Thank you.

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Denying that the concerns of others relating to the unhealthy connections of Spiritual formation and contemplative prayer with the many and various false religions of this world has any validity
I've never said that. What I have repeatedly said is that your propaganda is ill-informed, lacking logical rigor, and based on emotion. I have also observed that you have smeared Warren and Hybels without demonstrable cause.

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The bible is quite clear that before the return of Christ there will be a unification of humanities nations and religions in rebellion against God's authority. Spiritual formation and contemplative prayer incorporate techniques and methodologies common among the many and various false religions of this world. Incorporating the same within "Christianity" is definitely opening the door to greater opportunity for this unification to take place even among professed Christians.
Again, commonalities in words and even practice proves nothing. Pagans and Christ-denying Jews meet together, sing, pray, worship, publish sacred books, and listen to people expound on those books. Commonality by itself is simply emotional smoke and mirrors used by propaganda houses around the world. Have you figured out yet how to justify that female visionary of yours? She's OK, because you like her but others aren't.

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Not to mention opening the minds of professed Christians up to satanic influences by the emptying of their minds of all thoughts, or altered states by way of controlled breathing or chanting exercises, none of which the bible condones.
More emotional alarmism. How do you know that prophetess of yours wasn't demon possessed? You don't know, do you? As I have asked before, what methods of prayer does the Bible condone? Standing, reclining, eyes open or closed, rocking back and forth or side tho side, stopping the outside chattrer or praying in the subway, focusing on one word or entire periscopes, reading or reciting, out loud or silently? Are quiet times at 5am, with or without a journal OK? How do you know?
Simply, you don't, but you want to disparage anyone else that does something you have admitted knowing very little about.

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Never mind of course either, the testimony of many a converted Christian who once practiced all the same while members of false religions in pursuit of, and actually obtaining supernatural experiences. You can call all of this baseless if you wish, but it will not make it so.
Do you not read what you write? I have no doubt that you know people who have done any number of things while practicing Satanism or even Judaism. What you haven't demonstrated is any basis for claiming that quieting one's mind in preparation for prayer is Satanic just because any number of god-deniers have quieted their minds in preparation for child sacrifices. If you found out that they talked to Satan, would you then outlaw Christian prayer in any form?


Offline Amo

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HRoberson

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Simply more mishmash following a Google search.

Perhaps I should post a series of websites about Adventists. Let me find a few that mention that prophetess, and link modern prophesy to oh, predictions of the end of the world in 1988, or comets and running suits, or maybe visions of sugar plums, and Koolaid in South America.

Those would all be valid, right?

Then I could claim that the Adventists have prophets and visions, and so do various cults, so the Adventists must be Satanic.

OK, stay tuned....

Offline Amo

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Simply more mishmash following a Google search.

Perhaps I should post a series of websites about Adventists. Let me find a few that mention that prophetess, and link modern prophesy to oh, predictions of the end of the world in 1988, or comets and running suits, or maybe visions of sugar plums, and Koolaid in South America.

Those would all be valid, right?

Then I could claim that the Adventists have prophets and visions, and so do various cults, so the Adventists must be Satanic.

OK, stay tuned....

Your right, it is a bunch of mishmash. You missed the significance of the different sites posted. It's not about the mishmash found on each site, it's about the common thread connecting them all. All the false religions, disciplines,philosophies, or what have you, seek the silence. Are you denying this? If so present your evidence to the contrary. Try actually addressing and engaging the issue, rather than just blowing it off as insignificant simply because you say so.

If you feel the need to change the subject, bring forth your web sites, state your case, and I will actually address the issues presented, rather than just expect everyone to deny any significance to them, because I say so.

HRoberson

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Simply more mishmash following a Google search.

Perhaps I should post a series of websites about Adventists. Let me find a few that mention that prophetess, and link modern prophesy to oh, predictions of the end of the world in 1988, or comets and running suits, or maybe visions of sugar plums, and Koolaid in South America.

Those would all be valid, right?

Then I could claim that the Adventists have prophets and visions, and so do various cults, so the Adventists must be Satanic.

OK, stay tuned....

Your right, it is a bunch of mishmash. You missed the significance of the different sites posted. It's not about the mishmash found on each site, it's about the common thread connecting them all. All the false religions, disciplines,philosophies, or what have you, seek the silence. Are you denying this? If so present your evidence to the contrary. Try actually addressing and engaging the issue, rather than just blowing it off as insignificant simply because you say so.

If you feel the need to change the subject, bring forth your web sites, state your case, and I will actually address the issues presented, rather than just expect everyone to deny any significance to them, because I say so.
How many times must you ignore the simple fact that commonality of terms is irrelevant?

You have yet to provide any credible evidence that spiritual formation is by definition, Satanic.

It simply doesn't matter if someone uses the same phrase; there is no logical basis for your assertions.

HRoberson

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Cults believe that they have the truth and that others don't have it, can't see it, or refuse to acknowledge it. The Adventist Church believes that they have discerned the correct day of worship and that the rest of Christendom is entirely wrong in worshiping on Sunday.


Cults use over-bearing and flooding to silence those who question them and their beliefs. As we have seen in this thread, instead of addressing direct questions, they attempt to confuse and distract the discussion by introducing over and over again simply long lists of websites and ad nauseum text posts in an attempt to overwhelm the discussion.


Cults identify their leaders as those with special knowledge or insights. Often these leaders claim or are purported to have seen visions or to have special revelations from "god," or some other transcendent being. The Adventists most famous religious figure is a prophetess who reports visions and special knowledge. Her writings even on the genetic deformity of narrow waists are touted widely and loudly for the "faithful."


Cults set up systems to separate their followers from family and society. The Adventist church require their adherents to attend church on Saturdays, effectively removing them from normal social interaction on weekends since they are in church on Saturdays and their non-Adventist friends are in church on Sundays. Their ministers aren't even supposed to perform weddings between Adventists and non-Adventists.


Cults accuse their detractors of being less than honest, of following Satan, or generally of the occult. As we can see in this very thread, attempts to discredit Warren and Hybels have been couched in accusations of association with the occult.


Cults attempt to keep their followers separated from other belief systems. Again, as we have seen on this thread, all concepts of spiritual formation are painted, without any evidence,and with admitted ignorance, as occultish and Satanic.


Clearly then, the Adventist Church, especially as exampled by this thread, must be considered a cult and dangerous to the spiritual health of not only their own members, but of Christendom as a whole.



Here's more:
http://leavingsda.com/seventh-day-adventist-cult/
http://leavingsda.com/adventist-exclusiveness-2/
http://www.isitso.org/guide/sda.html
http://www.biblebelievers.com/SDA/SDA1.html
http://community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/43861/13320219/What_is_your_view_on_marrying_non-adventists?pg=1





Over to you....


Offline Amo

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Simply more mishmash following a Google search.

Perhaps I should post a series of websites about Adventists. Let me find a few that mention that prophetess, and link modern prophesy to oh, predictions of the end of the world in 1988, or comets and running suits, or maybe visions of sugar plums, and Koolaid in South America.

Those would all be valid, right?

Then I could claim that the Adventists have prophets and visions, and so do various cults, so the Adventists must be Satanic.

OK, stay tuned....

Your right, it is a bunch of mishmash. You missed the significance of the different sites posted. It's not about the mishmash found on each site, it's about the common thread connecting them all. All the false religions, disciplines,philosophies, or what have you, seek the silence. Are you denying this? If so present your evidence to the contrary. Try actually addressing and engaging the issue, rather than just blowing it off as insignificant simply because you say so.

If you feel the need to change the subject, bring forth your web sites, state your case, and I will actually address the issues presented, rather than just expect everyone to deny any significance to them, because I say so.
How many times must you ignore the simple fact that commonality of terms is irrelevant?

You have yet to provide any credible evidence that spiritual formation is by definition, Satanic.

It simply doesn't matter if someone uses the same phrase; there is no logical basis for your assertions.

Commonality of terms is just commonality of terms. One might ask why Christians want to use terms and phrases shared among false religions in relation to practices of spiritual formation which involve altering the state of ones mind in order to create a "religious" experience. If the terms though are not actually referring to this literal practice, and no such thing is being done, then commonality of terms is as you suggest. Nothing more than commonality of terms. This may be the case in some instances, but obviously is not concerning all instances.

There are Christians who think they can come closer to God by practicing the mind altering techniques used by many of the worlds false religions. They are wrong, and doing so is Dangerous. Incorporating the practices and techniques of the false religions around them was one of the downfalls of Israel which God had warned them against. It has been in the past, continues to be, and will continue to be the downfall of authentic Christianity as well. The Roman Catholic Church is the prime example of the same.

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
John 14:6-7 (KJV)

There is no science or methodology to coming closer to the Father, but by Jesus Christ Himself. By beholding we become changed, not by eastern forms of meditation, mantras, self hypnosis, or what have you.

18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.2 Cor 3:18 (KJV)

Looking to some methodology or science outside of scripture is not the answer. It is a dangerous route to follow.

Offline Amo

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I'm not sure what happened to the tool bars for quoting, highlighting, underlining etc. I guess I'll try again later to see if they are back for use.