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Offline grams

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No Water today !
« on: Sat Jul 03, 2010 - 16:43:24 »
    Col 2:8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


This does not say water !
   
Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7  For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Eph 4:4  There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


Every one thinks water as soon as they  hear / read   the word Baptize

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No Water today !
« on: Sat Jul 03, 2010 - 16:43:24 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jul 08, 2010 - 08:23:34 »
That's what the Eunoch thought after Phillip studied with him.

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jul 08, 2010 - 08:23:34 »

Offline grams

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #2 on: Thu Jul 08, 2010 - 16:37:36 »


        And then what      ::lookaround:: ::headscratch::

Offline Jaime

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jul 08, 2010 - 18:00:27 »
And then he told Phillip, look here is water, what hinders ME from being baptized. Then they went down into the water and he was baptized.

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jul 08, 2010 - 18:00:27 »

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #4 on: Thu Jul 08, 2010 - 19:49:13 »
When we say BURY we most likely almost always certainly unless otherwise instructed BURY in DIRT.

Baptize ALWAYS means into a LIQUID unless used in a figurative sense.
"I was buried head over heels in debt" does not WASH AWAY THY SINS.

"I was baptized or DIPPED into purple dye almost never turns out in a good sense."

Baptized with SPIRIT and with FIRE in prophecy and in the example means to be
Overwhelmed with WIND to blow the chaff away from the grain to be BURNED UP WITH FIRE.

The symbols in the upper room were WIND and FIRE. The false Jews as the VIPER race who refused to be baptized IN WATER were baptized by a WIND which let the FIRE get out of control when the Romans destroyed maybe a million Jews.  The "Spirit" embraced like a puff of air (breath) on Cornelius. THEN He was commanded to be baptized.

There is no jot or tittle in historic scholarship which does NOT understand that baptized means in WATER.  One scholar notes that vipers hate water.

Only those who have OBEYED that FORM (pattern capable of being imitated) are said to be THEN FREE FROM SIN.

Bury means dirt or a tomb: baptize means water as ULTIMATE GRACE so that you don't have to hang on a cross.  How utterly UNGRACIOUS to tell Christ: "Not me."

So, you have to wonder: "Maybe I am like the race of vipers whom John refused to baptize with water" until they repented and proved it.  People do take a fork in the road and the destination is predestinated.

Otherwise, you might be asking, "Why am I almost unique in not being able to receive the Words of Christ?" There are those OF FAITH and OF TRUTH. And there is the world for which Jesus would not pray and the wise (sophists) from whom God hid himself.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:
         and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

If you reject His Word He sends you strong delusions so that you believe a lie and are damned.  I think He gives people lots of chances to say "I reject you" and feel absolutely confident that they have a Phd in truth: you cannot tell the difference when you have moved beyond redemption.

« Last Edit: Thu Jul 08, 2010 - 19:57:44 by blituri »

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #4 on: Thu Jul 08, 2010 - 19:49:13 »



Offline davidmac

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #5 on: Fri Jul 09, 2010 - 14:37:06 »
Quote
Every one thinks water as soon as they  hear / read   the word Baptize
I would think that this would be the normal reaction.
Quote
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God
Our burial in water comes to mind-not the Baptism of the Spirit-this is a ritual burial not our placement into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit.
Quote
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Again a burial-and another hint that the ritual of water immersion is in view is the expression "planted together in the likeness of His death"
I honestly do not see that these passages in any way at all negate that baptism is for our present dispensation.

Offline grams

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #6 on: Fri Jul 09, 2010 - 16:11:14 »


Quote
blituri  says..................
 Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:
         and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
   

This is before the Gentiles came in.   And things did change.

You need to watch who is talking and to whom.

    Acts 9:3  And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Acts 9:4  And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Acts 9:5  And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Acts 9:6  And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
   


Things changed when the gentiles came in.

  Eph 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7  That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Offline grams

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #7 on: Fri Jul 09, 2010 - 16:22:10 »
Hello davidmac,

I am sorry I do not know if your are  saying yes or no to what I posted ?

Sorry ...

 ::sleepingsoundly::  I have a problem.  Old age .  But even worse.
over the years I got used to my husband's snoring, so that is OK.
only now , for some reason he is changing the sound.  And also coughing.
And has sleep Apnea.   I wear ear plugs, but it does not help enough.
Till I am zonked out.
I get a average of 3 hours a night.  When I am lucky 5.
I thought I had alzheimer's.  But thought it over and guess it lack of sleep.

I was Catholic, and had all the rights they say to have. 
Funny what good does it do to Baptize a baby ?  Sprinkles on the head?
How could I know , what was going on ?  and if I wanted it ?
I believe they have changed since then ?   

Offline davidmac

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #8 on: Fri Jul 09, 2010 - 19:04:36 »
Howdy Sister,
I have Sleep Apnea as your husband does- I sleep with CPAP forced air at night which has stopped the snoring and now my wife gets even more sleep than I do. I agree with you that the practice infant baptism is without the meaning intended in the New Testament. I do believe that the Great Commission to make followers and immerse them is for today. The teaching that you have received states that water baptism is not for today-which I disagree with (though that does not mean that I have to be "disagreeable"  ::hug:: )

Offline Jaime

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #9 on: Fri Jul 09, 2010 - 19:50:10 »
Grams, there is only one Gospel. It's the same for the Jews and the Gentiles.

Yes we are saved by Grace through faith. Baptism is a part of our faith response of the free gift we can't earn. No works involved. Our acceptance adds nothing to the cost of the free gift.

Offline grams

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #10 on: Fri Jul 09, 2010 - 20:19:13 »


Hello    davidmac,

My husband also has the machine.  And yes the snoring did get better.
Only , now his weight  does not help !  He has arthritis in the back bone
which is rubbing.  And the doctor said the operation is to dangerous.
He does exercise a lot but being so slow , it does not help enough.

   Gospel  ~   God died for our sins

A free gift !   And what does free mean ???? ::giggle::

   

Offline grams

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #11 on: Fri Jul 09, 2010 - 20:24:04 »
Hello  Jaime ,

Quote
        Our acceptance adds nothing to the cost of the free gift.   

So your not Baptized ?       ::reading::



Offline Jaime

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #12 on: Fri Jul 09, 2010 - 22:04:38 »
Hello  Jaime ,

Quote
       Our acceptance adds nothing to the cost of the free gift.    

So your not Baptized ?       ::reading::




I don't understand your comment. Yes I am baptized and it added nothing to the cost of God's free gift. Are you baptized? If you are it was part of your faith response, just like confessing Christ is Lord with your lips, just like your belief that he is Lord and died for your sins, just like your repentence from your sins was. All are part of our faith response. The price to us for the free gift is still  FREE. If you are not baptized, your faith response is incomplete. As I always say, I can't say when or at what point on the continuum of the process one is saved, but I do know without a doubt baptism is part of our faith response before, during or after our salvation moment. Just because faith is mentioned by itself in a verse does not nullify other verses that point to repentence, and just because confessing with ones lips save you doesn't nullify many verses that point to water baptism as putting on Christ, or participating in his death, burial and resurrection by going down in the water and coming out to walk in newness of life as a new creature. There is no need for any dreaded hydro-phobia.

Mark 16:16

« Last Edit: Fri Jul 09, 2010 - 22:15:26 by Jaime »

Offline grams

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #13 on: Sat Jul 10, 2010 - 06:14:32 »
Hello Jaime

Quote
  You say,

   Are you baptized?   

I was a Catholic for 50 years , had all the sacraments done to me.
Baptized as a baby, only a few day's old.   
Do I remember this ?  Water poured on my head ?
And the priest making a sign of the cross on my forehead ?  Nope!

After 50 years we joined a bible church, no religion !

We believe there was a time "Past"  but "Now" and  "Ages to Come"
Time" Past "  Genesis - Acts  -  But "Now" Romans - Philemon - "Ages to Come"  Hebrews  - Revelation .

Offline Jaime

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #14 on: Sat Jul 10, 2010 - 18:53:49 »
What does infant baptism have to do with baptism described in scripture? If you haven't been baptized as an adult, have you completed your faith response? I seriously doubt a sprinkling 50 yrs ago as an innocent infant with no capacity for Godly sorrow or repentence had any efficacy at all as to qualifying as surrendering and being buried with Christ, and being raised to walk in newness of life. Baptism is more than, "hey I got wet once upon a time."

Offline grams

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #15 on: Sat Jul 10, 2010 - 20:22:07 »
Well I have it all !  Upon Belief...

    Gal 2:19  For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21  I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
     

Offline davidmac

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #16 on: Sat Jul 10, 2010 - 20:53:01 »
Yes I agree that salvation comes upon belief and not by the law. However this passage does not state that water baptism is not for our present age. Scriptural baptism is the immersion of penitent believers upon their profession of faith in Christ. Sprinkling is not baptism and infants are not penitent believers.

Offline Jaime

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #17 on: Sat Jul 10, 2010 - 20:59:58 »
Grams, none of those verses you quoted nullify equallu good and inspired scripture concerning baptism, confessing with our lips, and repentence.

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #18 on: Sun Jul 11, 2010 - 05:08:19 »


     All saved persons have been made members of the Body of Christ by One divine baptism (this is baptism into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit). By that ONE BAPTISM, every member of the Body of Christ is identified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. In light of the statement concerning the "ONE BAPTISM" in Ephesians 4:5 and the statement in I Corinthians 1:17 that "Christ sent me not to baptize but to preach the gospel", we affirm that water baptism has no place in God's spiritual program for the Body of Christ in this day of grace.         

Offline davidmac

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #19 on: Sun Jul 11, 2010 - 10:31:10 »
Hello Grams,
I believe that if you look through the scriptures you will find that there is a twofold sense in which there is "one baptism". First, there is one baptism by the  Holy Spirit, by which those who trust Christ are placed in the body
Quote
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. (1Cor.12:13)
.And there is one baptism (immersion in water)by which converts confess their identification with Christ in death, burial, and resurrection. By being baptized, disciples express allegiance to Christ, the burial of their old self, and a determination to walk in newness of life this is an outward display of their repentance and faith.Note that in the NT each of the accounts of conversion include baptism in water.Also note that at all times believers are placed into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit-but this does not negate water baptism. Note the account we have of Cornelius and his household we have in Acts 10-
Quote
Acts 10:43  To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins."
Acts 10:44  While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
Acts 10:45  And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Acts 10:46  For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
Acts 10:47  "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
Acts 10:48  And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
Cornelius and his household were baptized by the Holy Spirit as the Apostle Peter later recounts in Acts 11-
Quote
Acts 11:15  And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.
Acts 11:16  Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, 'John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'
Acts 11:17  If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"
So we know that there are indeed two "one baptisms"! Although Cornelius and his household were obviously baptized by the Holy Spirit they were instructed to be water baptized as well.

Offline grams

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #20 on: Sun Jul 11, 2010 - 13:11:34 »
Hi  davidmac ,

I took this from our Web sight !
Maybe you would like to   read the rest ?
Your choice ?

You know, people say we ought to be water baptised, because Jesus was. Why? Do you want to be a priest? And why was all the nation of Israel being baptised? Remember the covenant God made with the nation of Israel: “Ye shall be a kingdom of Priests
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 11, 2010 - 13:18:06 by grams »

Offline grams

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #21 on: Sun Jul 11, 2010 - 13:24:37 »
The above did not show , so I am trying again ........ 

Baptism and the Nation of  Israel

http://www.rightlydividing.org/secondarypages/BaptismAndtheNationofIsrael.htm



http://www.rightlydividing.org/grace.html

Offline davidmac

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #22 on: Sun Jul 11, 2010 - 13:50:20 »
Hello Sister,
I read the link-but do not find justification for the idea that baptism was only for the nation of Israel-remember the Great Commission-
Quote
Matthew 28:19  Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Matthew 28:20  teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen

Cornelius in Acts 10 was a gentile -and he was baptized.
Baptism is for the church until the end of the age (when we are caught up to meet our beloved Lord in the air)-I find no verses telling us to stop baptizing disciples.

Offline grams

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #23 on: Sun Jul 11, 2010 - 16:35:34 »


           1 Cor 1:13  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
     

 1 Cor 1:17  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
 

 Gal 2:21  I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
 

Offline davidmac

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #24 on: Sun Jul 11, 2010 - 19:35:26 »
Howdy grams,
Paul spoke against the divisions in the Corinthian assembly in the passage that you have referred to-
Quote
Corinthians 1:11-17  For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you.
  Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ."
  Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
  I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
  lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name.
  Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other.
  For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
Paul did baptize some of the Corinthians-( Crispus, Gaius and the household of Stepahas) so we know he was not opposed to baptizing converts-simply his mission from Christ was to preach the gospel (work as an evangelist) and not a pastoral ministry in a particular assembly as an elder. New disciples are to be baptized- Paul's calling does not negate the Great Commission command to baptize converts.
You quoted-  Gal 2:21  I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Baptism of believers is not part of the law but is for Christians in our present dispensation.

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #25 on: Sun Jul 11, 2010 - 20:23:40 »
Hello  

Quote
  Paul did baptize some of the Corinthians  

Then he found out that is not being done with the Gentiles and it stopped !
It was longer for the Jews .

The cross was the full payment .  Nothing else was needed , after that!
Now one is  a Jew any more.   We are all Gentiles.

God turned to the Gentiles, and after the calling away it will be back ...

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #26 on: Sun Jul 25, 2010 - 07:34:09 »
    Col 2:8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


This does not say water !
   
Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7  For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Eph 4:4  There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


Every one thinks water as soon as they  hear / read   the word Baptize


I posted this elsewhere in a little different context  but it is appropriate to repost it here.

Most of the Christian world, recognizes that in the Great Commission Jesus established, ordained if you will, the practice of water baptism and established it as normative until "the end of the age" (Matt 28:18-20).  There can be no question that this refers to water baptism and not Spirit baptism as such because Jesus in fact commanded His disciples to administer it. [How would one go about the businees of administering Spirit baptism?] Water is specifically mentioned in connection with baptism in the case of the Eunuch (Acts 8:36) and the case of the Gentiles (Acts 10:47).  Converts are commanded to be baptized and this must refer something that they can accomplish (Acts 2:38).  Baptism is pictured as the result of a decision made by sinners indicating water baptism (Acts 2:41; Acts 19:5).  Evangelists are depicted as baptizing converts, which must also refer to water baptism (Acts 8:38; 1 Cor 1:14-16).  That Philip baptized eunuch in water (Acts 8:36-37) implies strongly that he did the same for the Samaritans (Acts 8:12-13).  All of these clear references and inferences to water baptism make it more that reasonable to take the other three references to baptism in Acts as water baptism also (Acts 16:15; 16:33; 18:8).

If you think these were descriptions of conversion experiences, which I do, and if you think Jesus, in speaking to Nicodemus was speaking of a conversion experience, then I think it is very difficult to come a conclusion that "born of water" can be anything other that water baptism.  This is particularly clear, it seems to me, when we understand that Paul identifies the key difference between John's baptism and baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, i.e., Christian baptism, to be the receiving of the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:5).

The references to baptism in the rest of the NT must be considered in the same light as that in Acts and the Gospels.  The time period over which most of the NT books were written coincides, or nearly so, with the time period over which the book of Acts covers. 

The reason that everyone thinks water as soon as they  hear / read  the word baptize is because unless otherwise identified, it is water baptism that is being spoken of.

Offline grams

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #27 on: Sun Jul 25, 2010 - 16:46:23 »
We are not the kingdom Saints.

We are gentiles.

They had works .

We have Jesus Christ, whom  was are full payment  ! 


Offline Jimmy

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Re: No Water today !
« Reply #28 on: Sun Jul 25, 2010 - 19:21:19 »
We are not the kingdom Saints.

We are gentiles.

They had works .

We have Jesus Christ, whom  was are full payment  ! 

Well I don't know about you, but I certainly consider myself to be one of the kingdom saints.


Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29  And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.


And they did not have works; salvation has always been by grace through faith and not of works that any should boast (Eph 2:8-10).

 

     
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