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Offline JohnDB

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Question For Dave
« on: Fri Apr 13, 2012 - 09:51:08 »
Sorry to put your Name in the Title of this thread Dave.W and I will adjust it if you are offended.

The question though is that since you seem familiar with the sifre of Jewish Law often.
In your estimation did the Jews ever practice Judicial Restraint?

I can elaborate if you are unfamiliar with the topic of Judicial Restraint. 

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Question For Dave
« on: Fri Apr 13, 2012 - 09:51:08 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Question For Dave
« Reply #1 on: Fri Apr 13, 2012 - 10:16:40 »
There are other Daves here, so I had to look at this one to see if you were refering to me or someone else.

I am not a lawyer so if you could elaborate that would be helpful.

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Re: Question For Dave
« Reply #1 on: Fri Apr 13, 2012 - 10:16:40 »

Offline JohnDB

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Re: Question For Dave
« Reply #2 on: Fri Apr 13, 2012 - 10:43:19 »
In America's past there is a story in a time where $100 bills were extremely rare. A bank teller receiving one of the bills pocketed the note to show friends during lunch. The man showed the friends the bill during his lunch period and then placed the bill back into his bank drawer during his shift. The bank manager then charged the teller with theft. Laws concerning imbezzlement were not in existance so the Supreme Court found the man innocent.

IOW in instances where the Law was absent/silent the Judges refused to create Laws to appropriately close loopholes as that function belonged to another group/person. Now referred to as Judicial Restraint.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Question For Dave
« Reply #3 on: Fri Apr 13, 2012 - 11:06:22 »
OK, gotcha.

I would have to say no to that question. At least for traditional Judaism.  Messianic Judaism is another story and without the long history, one that is not able to be told yet.

Going back to Moses, who was a Levite, a prophet and a judge; there were many times listed in the Pentetuch that some issue came up (the guy carrying sticks on the sabbath, the girls whose father died with no brother to inherit the family property, etc) where Moses had to go to God and pray to find out what to do. After him, the priests and judges had to do the same thing. 

When the pharasees rose up to fill in the gap left by an ineffectual priesthood they started doing the same thing. For the first few centuries that was just oral tradition or the "traditions of the fathers" as Paul calls it. Following the bar Kochba revolt of 135 ad, they decided to write it down and hence we got the Mishnah (200 ad) and Talmuds. (500 ad)  The process of rabbinic decrees continues to this day. Added to "work" prohibited on the sabbath: driving a car, flipping a light switch.

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Re: Question For Dave
« Reply #3 on: Fri Apr 13, 2012 - 11:06:22 »

Offline JohnDB

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Re: Question For Dave
« Reply #4 on: Fri Apr 13, 2012 - 11:26:58 »
Again if I may,

(since you are the only Messianic Jew on the forum)

I have made several friends inside of the Messianic Jewish faith and all of them, including yourself refer back to the original Talmuds and practices of traditional Judaism for answers to a lot of issues concerning the various things in life that regularly fall outside of clear explanation of the Law and scripture.

Just wondering since you, yourself admit that they went beyond what was written if possibly some of the practices of falling back on traditional Judaism beliefs when there is no clear directive is somewhat flawed at times.
I am not opposed to learning those ideas...those ideas actually help explain so much about why the things were said were said in scripture. I love understanding the people to whom the scriptures were directly written to.

(BTW...probably going to move this thread to a more appropriate forum but I wanted your attention to it and this seemed like a good place to gain it)

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Re: Question For Dave
« Reply #4 on: Fri Apr 13, 2012 - 11:26:58 »



Offline DaveW

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Re: Question For Dave
« Reply #5 on: Fri Apr 13, 2012 - 11:51:38 »
Again if I may,

(since you are the only Messianic Jew on the forum)

I have made several friends inside of the Messianic Jewish faith and all of them, including yourself refer back to the original Talmuds and practices of traditional Judaism for answers to a lot of issues concerning the various things in life that regularly fall outside of clear explanation of the Law and scripture.

Just wondering since you, yourself admit that they went beyond what was written if possibly some of the practices of falling back on traditional Judaism beliefs when there is no clear directive is somewhat flawed at times.
IT absolutely is flawed at times.  That is in large part what was argued against by Jesus that has been mistakenly attributed to the Mosaic scriptures themselves. He opposed many points where they went off-script.  But interestingly, on some points He seemed to agree and uphold extrabiblical ideas.

His sparing the life of the woman caught in adultery (Jn 8) is a good example.  "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" is not found in scripture. It is however found in rabbinic literature that the person who throws the first stone has to be one of the original accusers and must be completely innocent of any complicity in the matter at hand.  (it was intended to make it very difficult to perform capital punishment)

Another example is the rabbinic heirarchy of OT commands. A negative (thou shalt not ...) command is always trumped by a positive one (thou shalt ...) with 2 excpetions: the prohibitions against idol worship and adultery.  HE used that one a few times in justifying healing on the sabbath, actually using it as taught by Hillel.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Question For Dave
« Reply #6 on: Fri Apr 13, 2012 - 11:58:18 »
[continued]

Most messianics take a good long look at Rabbinic litierature.  We want to be as relatable as possible to the wider Jewish community, so if Jewish tradition has a good way of doing things and obeying scripture, why reinvent the wheel?

But there are times (both in studying OT and the Gospels) when that tradition hinders someone from obeying the bible. In that case we tend to either modify it (if possible) or we abandon it altogether.

Traditional orthodox Judiasm takes the rabbinic decrees as obligatory and binding. We do not. We try to stay close to be relatable, but feel no divine requirement to do so.