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Offline stevehut

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Reformation Part 5 and last
« on: Sat Jul 24, 2010 - 22:59:33 »
   Reformation to the Rescue?
   How much do you really know about the Reformation?  When we consider that so much of our history and theology was greatly influenced during this period, it is important to understand where we came from.
   Among us Protestants, we generally hew to a simplistic understanding of church history. We teach our people that the Reformation (the religious upheaval in 16th century Europe) was a wholesale repudiation of those terrible Catholic heresies, where the people returned to the pure message of the Bible. Indeed, to a great extent this is true. But it’s not that simple, because the reformers were typically very selective in the heresies they disputed and the reforms they proposed.
   No doubt, Luther certainly attempted to bring the Word to the common folk by producing the first Bible in his native tongue.  This volume greatly influenced both the standardization of the German language, and the subsequent translation of the King James Version.  For this, he must be applauded. He even coined an expression in Latin, which became a popular catch phrase of his era: sola scriptura, or “only Scripture.

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Reformation Part 5 and last
« on: Sat Jul 24, 2010 - 22:59:33 »

Offline desertknight

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Re: Reformation Part 5 and last
« Reply #1 on: Sun Jul 25, 2010 - 00:22:46 »
The Luther Bible was not the first Bible translated into German.   German Bibles had been in existence since the middle ages and the first printing press German language Bible was the Catholic Mentel Bible over half a century before Luther's. 

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Re: Reformation Part 5 and last
« Reply #1 on: Sun Jul 25, 2010 - 00:22:46 »

Offline stevehut

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Re: Reformation Part 5 and last
« Reply #2 on: Sun Jul 25, 2010 - 00:37:49 »
Could you point me to a source on this?

Offline desertknight

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Re: Reformation Part 5 and last
« Reply #3 on: Sun Jul 25, 2010 - 03:10:22 »

Offline desertknight

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Re: Reformation Part 5 and last
« Reply #4 on: Sun Jul 25, 2010 - 04:15:59 »
I don't mean this specifically just for you, Steve, but no one can learn the reality of Catholic doctrine or history by using Protestant sources.  Even those sources that are not obviously anti-Catholic get much wrong because Protestants have been trading bad information back and forth to each other for hundreds of years.  When I first started learning about Catholicism one of the most shocking experiences I had was in having so much of what I had always presumed to be 'common knowledge' about Catholics and the Church, proven to be so wrong.   Like you I always assumed that Catholics had little knowledge of the Bible and little use for it.  That the Church had forbidden it's members from reading the Bible or owning them or printing them in the vernacular.   One of the reasons I became a Catholic was after realising how much more seriously and literally the Catholic Church understood Sacred Scripture.  
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 25, 2010 - 07:33:51 by desertknight »

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Re: Reformation Part 5 and last
« Reply #4 on: Sun Jul 25, 2010 - 04:15:59 »



Offline Volkmar

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Re: Reformation Part 5 and last
« Reply #5 on: Thu Aug 05, 2010 - 06:20:26 »
Steve,

Have you read The Great Emergence by Phyllis Tickle?

Here's a one-liner; "Every 500 years the Church holds a rummage sale."



V

Offline mclees8

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Re: Reformation Part 5 and last
« Reply #6 on: Thu Aug 05, 2010 - 11:06:11 »
I don't mean this specifically just for you, Steve, but no one can learn the reality of Catholic doctrine or history by using Protestant sources.  Even those sources that are not obviously anti-Catholic get much wrong because Protestants have been trading bad information back and forth to each other for hundreds of years.  When I first started learning about Catholicism one of the most shocking experiences I had was in having so much of what I had always presumed to be 'common knowledge' about Catholics and the Church, proven to be so wrong.   Like you I always assumed that Catholics had little knowledge of the Bible and little use for it.  That the Church had forbidden it's members from reading the Bible or owning them or printing them in the vernacular.   One of the reasons I became a Catholic was after realising how much more seriously and literally the Catholic Church understood Sacred Scripture.  

Dear Night you always say things like this. The Protestants are  ill informed and are victims of bad propaganda. They just don't have all the real facts. Their being fed lies. You know I am not prejudice for I have left all denominational ties and walk only as a believer and follower of Christ. i  see both sides of the river of confusion


YOU KNOW  i am not against Catholics. we are all brothers of one faith in Christ
I believe you when you say Catholics are are up on their scripture. At least the ones I have come across in these forums. What I do find though is the turnng a blinded eye to what is most obvious and true. No its not just bad information, and when you know these things you would rather be willingly ignorant of them to defend what can't be defended.

You know that the papacy was founded by corrupt and ambitious men who wanted power and position. you  know this is true. Not just bad information. 

You know that Jesus did not found his church on worldly and political ambitions yet we all know that this is the papacy through and through. The  list of course  goes on. Yet you continue to say we just don't understand. we listen to bad information.  Why is that?  Truth is revealed in scripture. are we to remain blind.

What do believers need to know. We need to know Christ. We  need to know what his mission and true purpose is for his church.  We find that in scripture. Jesus never taught us that the church was just an organized governing hierarchy but a living faith and relationship with Him through the Holy Spirit first personally and the corporately. We need to know what it means to Love not the world or the things of it. We must  put know faith in it. It ways its lusts it politics and corrupt ambitions. yet you see the papacy as nothing wrong. We just have bad facts.  This is day after day ::shrug::   

 

Offline stevehut

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Re: Reformation Part 5 and last
« Reply #7 on: Thu Aug 05, 2010 - 11:32:48 »
Even those sources that are not obviously anti-Catholic get much wrong because Protestants have been trading bad information back and forth to each other for hundreds of years. 

I don't doubt that, knight.

Still, I've never met a Catholic who even claimed the slightest knowledge of the Bible, or who thought it important that they should.  They tell me they pretty much count on the church to tell them.

There's a beautiful new cathedral here in Los Angeles, and I went in a couple of years ago just to check it out.  Turns out there was a Mass going on at that very moment, and the priest looked very familiar.  Lo and behold, it was Cardinal Mahony.  And as a part of his short sermon, he admonished the people to read their catechism and keep up with the news regarding church developments.  I was shocked when he said something like "The Bible's good, but it's so hard to understand.  It's much easier to follow the church creeds.  Or just ask your parish priest, he will help you out."

I doubt you'll find that in writing in any official church publication, so plainly.  But that was the straight scoop from the guy who some believe may eventually become the first American pope.

Offline mclees8

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Re: Reformation Part 5 and last
« Reply #8 on: Thu Aug 05, 2010 - 18:10:06 »
Even those sources that are not obviously anti-Catholic get much wrong because Protestants have been trading bad information back and forth to each other for hundreds of years. 

I don't doubt that, knight.

Still, I've never met a Catholic who even claimed the slightest knowledge of the Bible, or who thought it important that they should.  They tell me they pretty much count on the church to tell them.

There's a beautiful new cathedral here in Los Angeles, and I went in a couple of years ago just to check it out.  Turns out there was a Mass going on at that very moment, and the priest looked very familiar.  Lo and behold, it was Cardinal Mahony.  And as a part of his short sermon, he admonished the people to read their catechism and keep up with the news regarding church developments.  I was shocked when he said something like "The Bible's good, but it's so hard to understand.  It's much easier to follow the church creeds.  Or just ask your parish priest, he will help you out."

I doubt you'll find that in writing in any official church publication, so plainly.  But that was the straight scoop from the guy who some believe may eventually become the first American pope.

You will find that this is not just a catholic Problem. It Protestants also . Not that Protestants are preferred to be ignorant by clergy but so many are so institutionalized that they just think they need to listen to clergy while their own bibles sit on a coffee table. They go to church traditionally and this is a great problem.

we must no trust men more than Gods word itself, protestant or catholic

God blesss

Offline desertknight

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Re: Reformation Part 5 and last
« Reply #9 on: Fri Aug 06, 2010 - 02:04:01 »
Even those sources that are not obviously anti-Catholic get much wrong because Protestants have been trading bad information back and forth to each other for hundreds of years.  

I don't doubt that, knight.

Still, I've never met a Catholic who even claimed the slightest knowledge of the Bible, or who thought it important that they should.  They tell me they pretty much count on the church to tell them.

There's a beautiful new cathedral here in Los Angeles, and I went in a couple of years ago just to check it out.  Turns out there was a Mass going on at that very moment, and the priest looked very familiar.  Lo and behold, it was Cardinal Mahony.  And as a part of his short sermon, he admonished the people to read their catechism and keep up with the news regarding church developments.  I was shocked when he said something like "The Bible's good, but it's so hard to understand.  It's much easier to follow the church creeds.  Or just ask your parish priest, he will help you out."

I doubt you'll find that in writing in any official church publication, so plainly.  But that was the straight scoop from the guy who some believe may eventually become the first American pope.

I find it hard to believe for several reasons...

1.  If you were at a Mass you must have noticed the entire first part of the Mass, every single Mass, is the Liturgy of the Word, the Bible.  The entire Bible is read in the course of about three years in every Catholic Church, at every Mass, throughout the world.  Sacred Scripture  and Sacred Tradition are the literal definition of the Deposit of Faith that is "Catholicism".

2.  I'm a Catholic convert of 30 years now who has travelled and worshipped around the world and I have never in my life encountered what you have ascribed to Catholics or Catholicism.

3.  The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the Bible laid out as instruction.  The Catechism is just the instruction of that Scripture laid out by subject.  It would be nonsensical to tell people to read their Catechism and not the Bible as the Catechism is primarily a reference text of Scripture.

4.  You can't possibly believe that the Los Angeles Cathedral is beautiful.  It is a cardboard box...yuk!  I doubt you just for that reason.

If you doubt what I have said, go to any Catholic board similar to this and post your same charge that you do here.   I would be interested in seeing the response to that from actual faithful Catholics.   ::smile::    

 

Offline desertknight

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Re: Reformation Part 5 and last
« Reply #10 on: Fri Aug 06, 2010 - 02:10:03 »
Even those sources that are not obviously anti-Catholic get much wrong because Protestants have been trading bad information back and forth to each other for hundreds of years. 

I don't doubt that, knight.

Still, I've never met a Catholic who even claimed the slightest knowledge of the Bible, or who thought it important that they should.  They tell me they pretty much count on the church to tell them.

There's a beautiful new cathedral here in Los Angeles, and I went in a couple of years ago just to check it out.  Turns out there was a Mass going on at that very moment, and the priest looked very familiar.  Lo and behold, it was Cardinal Mahony.  And as a part of his short sermon, he admonished the people to read their catechism and keep up with the news regarding church developments.  I was shocked when he said something like "The Bible's good, but it's so hard to understand.  It's much easier to follow the church creeds.  Or just ask your parish priest, he will help you out."

I doubt you'll find that in writing in any official church publication, so plainly.  But that was the straight scoop from the guy who some believe may eventually become the first American pope.

You will find that this is not just a catholic Problem. It Protestants also . Not that Protestants are preferred to be ignorant by clergy but so many are so institutionalized that they just think they need to listen to clergy while their own bibles sit on a coffee table. They go to church traditionally and this is a great problem.

we must no trust men more than Gods word itself, protestant or catholic

God blesss

I agree with the first part of what you say here, Mike, as there certainly are people who claim to be Christian who are very ignorant of basic Bible knowledge and that it is so regardless of whether they are Catholic or Protestant.  A key difference in the second part of what you say is that as Catholics, we believe the Church has the authority to interpret Scripture and that we must obey Church teaching on matters of faith and morals.  Such teaching authority, (Magisterium), is through Apostolic Succession and is infallibly protected by the Holy Spirit just as Christ promised His Church.

Offline stevehut

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Re: Reformation Part 5 and last
« Reply #11 on: Fri Aug 06, 2010 - 02:44:11 »
1.  The entire Bible is read in the course of about three years in every Catholic Church, at every Mass, throughout the world.  

2.  travelled and worshipped around the world and I have never in my life encountered what you have ascribed to Catholics or Catholicism.

3.  The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the Bible laid out as instruction.  

4.  You can't possibly believe that the Los Angeles Cathedral is beautiful.  
 

1- Yup.  I'm aware of that.  But that's not the same as a church member being biblically literate.

2- Not sure which part you're referring to there.

3- Yup.  I've known that for years.  And that's the very reason (plus the Mass readings) the cardinal gave for de-emphasizing Bible study.

4- Hey, I'm into art and architecture.  And it sure beats the old St. Vibiana's, which was crumbling for years.