Author Topic: Vineyard churches (Some questions)  (Read 7003 times)

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Offline Willie T

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #70 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 11:54:16 »
How sad for you, to think that coming to your Father means sitting in a pew, "soberly" watching the clock, hoping the dry, boring sermon will soon be over.  I would say I can't imagine that, but unfortunately I can.  All too well.

I've been where you are.  And I am so thankful that God got me out of religion.  Sometimes now, I have gone to church at around 7:00 on maybe a Thursday night, and never thought about the time till I happened to look at my watch to notice that it was almost 1:00 in the morning.  And we still got to enjoy being there for almost another hour.

I really do feel for you.  But what you know now is all you will likely ever know as long as you insist on puckering up and sitting there like a sad little lump of coal.

Offline Willie T

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #71 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 11:56:31 »
Lively stone said:

Yes, and he learns from me.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

a mans NOT suppose to get his learning from a woman!



1Cor 14:34 let your women keep silent in the churches
14:35 and if they will learn ANYTHING let them ask their husbands at home.


1Tim 2:12 but I suffer NOT a woman to TEACH - NOR to upsurp authority over a man
(your teaching on grace forums - would God go against himself and bless your teaching?

No ofcourse not... That's why you and I disagree on many things...... Woman



Ouch!
Um Mmm!  You should be so thankful that God doesn't drop the hammer on you, right where you stand.

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #72 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 11:57:20 »
Even Jesus was accused of being a "winebibber" i.e. a drunkard.


KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

but not because he acted drunk but because he drank with sinners
but NEVER did Christ act like a stumbling drunk

they were mad Jesus ate and drank with sinners! Matt 11:19

also Jesus is making contrast that John never ate nor drank and they said he have a devil
Jesus then drunks and eats with sinners and they say the same thing


Damned if you do
damned if you don't

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #73 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 11:59:22 »
Lively stone said:

Yes, and he learns from me.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

a mans NOT suppose to get his learning from a woman!



1Cor 14:34 let your women keep silent in the churches
14:35 and if they will learn ANYTHING let them ask their husbands at home.


1Tim 2:12 but I suffer NOT a woman to TEACH - NOR to upsurp authority over a man
(your teaching on grace forums - would God go against himself and bless your teaching?

No ofcourse not... That's why you and I disagree on many things...... Woman



Ouch!
Um Mmm!  You should be so thankful that God doesn't drop the hammer on you, right where you stand.

see people like williet have a problem with people like me who use and go by scripture

Willie the bible says those things about a woman - I can see you disagree with God

Lively Stone

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #74 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:02:34 »
Lively stone said:

Yes, and he learns from me.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

a mans NOT suppose to get his learning from a woman!

That's not true. Everyone needs to learn from God and His word.

Quote
1Cor 14:34 let your women keep silent in the churches
14:35 and if they will learn ANYTHING let them ask their husbands at home.

I knew you'd fly off the handle.

Quote
1Tim 2:12 but I suffer NOT a woman to TEACH - NOR to upsurp authority over a man
(your teaching on grace forums - would God go against himself and bless your teaching?

No ofcourse not... That's why you and I disagree on many things...... Woman

You mean 'usurp'? Can this woman teach you some spelling?

God does bless my teaching. So, you will have to let God teach you concerning your misguided thinking.




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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #74 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:02:34 »



Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #75 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:03:49 »
 Willie said:

How sad for you, to think that coming to your Father means sitting in a pew, "soberly" watching the clock, hoping the dry, boring sermon will soon be over.  I would say I can't imagine that, but unfortunately I can.  All too well.


KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

 You have never showed proof for holy laughter yet you continue to run your mouth on it.... Christians will accept anything (some)


Lively Stone

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #76 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:05:57 »
also Jesus is making contrast that John never ate nor drank and they said he have a devil
Jesus then drunks and eats with sinners and they say the same thing


Damned if you do
damned if you don't

I am in great company, then! Praise the Lord Jesus Christ!!

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #77 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:08:51 »
Livelystone said:

1Cor 14:34 let your women keep silent in the churches
14:35 and if they will learn ANYTHING let them ask their husbands at home.

I knew you'd fly off the handle.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:


Oh so when Gods word condemns you, I'm flying off the handle...


So you don't like those verses that condemn you and you still think God blesses your teachings


WOW...... Gods word condemns you not me.... Woman have a problem with those verses


You certainly can't teach on theose verses so what?


You have to skip them.... Your foolish to think God would go against his word for you



Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #78 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:14:47 »
also Jesus is making contrast that John never ate nor drank and they said he have a devil
Jesus then drunks and eats with sinners and they say the same thing


Damned if you do
damned if you don't


I am in great company, then! Praise the Lord Jesus Christ!!


See even here your understanding has failed...
Jesus was not laughing... Therefore you can't be in his company because of this verse.


This verse has NOTHING to do with Act2

it has NOTHING TO DO with acting drunk (or holy laughter)

but the whole thing is to show
John didn't drink and they condemned him
Jesus did and they Also condemned him






« Last Edit: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:18:03 by KNOWLEDGE BOMB »

Lively Stone

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #79 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:18:53 »
see people like williet have a problem with people like me who use and go by scripture

Willie the bible says those things about a woman - I can see you disagree with God

And we can see you do not understand God or His word.

Lively Stone

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #80 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:25:10 »
Livelystone said:

1Cor 14:34 let your women keep silent in the churches
14:35 and if they will learn ANYTHING let them ask their husbands at home.

I knew you'd fly off the handle.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:


Oh so when Gods word condemns you, I'm flying off the handle...


So you don't like those verses that condemn you and you still think God blesses your teachings


WOW...... Gods word condemns you not me.... Woman have a problem with those verses


You certainly can't teach on theose verses so what?


You have to skip them.... Your foolish to think God would go against his word for you

I am not condemned, and you have no right to do so. You haven't the full understanding of what Paul teaches on the subject, so you need to just hush.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Lively Stone

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #81 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:28:18 »
also Jesus is making contrast that John never ate nor drank and they said he have a devil
Jesus then drunks and eats with sinners and they say the same thing


Damned if you do
damned if you don't


I am in great company, then! Praise the Lord Jesus Christ!!


See even here your understanding has failed...
Jesus was not laughing... Therefore you can't be in his company because of this verse.


This verse has NOTHING to do with Act2

it has NOTHING TO DO with acting drunk (or holy laughter)

but the whole thing is to show
John didn't drink and they condemned him
Jesus did and they Also condemned him

You have confused even yourself. I didn't give you any verse about Jesus laughing, nor any verse at all. You are the one who made a scripture reference!

I am in good company because the ignorant will call us demonized just as they did Jesus.

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #82 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:41:37 »
So lively stone you can't give a verse to show uncontroled laughter as being bibical?


Didn't think so..... Use acts 2 because that what THEY use to prove it


So the church comes and bring holy laughter and says acts 2 is the basis for it..

You then laugh uncontrollable and don't believe you need anything to show it's of god...


Wonderful!
« Last Edit: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:45:16 by KNOWLEDGE BOMB »

Offline chosenone

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #83 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:48:59 »
Willie said:

How sad for you, to think that coming to your Father means sitting in a pew, "soberly" watching the clock, hoping the dry, boring sermon will soon be over.  I would say I can't imagine that, but unfortunately I can.  All too well.


KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

 You have never showed proof for holy laughter yet you continue to run your mouth on it.... Christians will accept anything (some)


....and yet other reject the gifts that God gives. ::frown::

 Incidentally there was no Holy laughter in the vineyard church that I went to. Maybe you need to go to a few different vineyard churches before you judge. Many different denominations are charismatic, and that as it should be.The gifts are for our use in the church.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #84 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:52:53 »
Lively stone said:

Yes, and he learns from me.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

a mans NOT suppose to get his learning from a woman!



1Cor 14:34 let your women keep silent in the churches
14:35 and if they will learn ANYTHING let them ask their husbands at home.


1Tim 2:12 but I suffer NOT a woman to TEACH - NOR to upsurp authority over a man
(your teaching on grace forums - would God go against himself and bless your teaching?

No ofcourse not... That's why you and I disagree on many things...... Woman



Ouch!


 If you dont like discussions with women,  may I suggest that you find a men only forum? Here we believe that we are all equal in Gods sight as in "there is now no male or female".

Offline chosenone

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #85 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:55:23 »
So lively stone you can't give a verse to show uncontroled laughter as being bibical?


Didn't think so..... Use acts 2 because that what THEY use to prove it


So the church comes and bring holy laughter and says acts 2 is the basis for it..

You then laugh uncontrollable and don't believe you need anything to show it's of god...


Wonderful!
 

All that you seem bothered with is this Holy laughter. Have you even actually seen this in person? Have you ever been to a vineyard church. Have you even been to any church that allows God to work using the gifts?Have you even been filled with the Spirit?

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #86 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:57:46 »
Livelystone said:

1Cor 14:34 let your women keep silent in the churches
14:35 and if they will learn ANYTHING let them ask their husbands at home.

I knew you'd fly off the handle.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:


Oh so when Gods word condemns you, I'm flying off the handle...


So you don't like those verses that condemn you and you still think God blesses your teachings


WOW...... Gods word condemns you not me.... Woman have a problem with those verses


You certainly can't teach on theose verses so what?


You have to skip them.... Your foolish to think God would go against his word for you

I am not condemned, and you have no right to do so. You haven't the full understanding of what Paul teaches on the subject, so you need to just hush.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:1 is about salvation

and has nothing to do with going against gods word on women.
« Last Edit: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 13:00:19 by KNOWLEDGE BOMB »

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #87 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 13:04:19 »
Hey if you wanna do something that they twist scripture on to make it fit

then by all means go ahead and be indwelled by a spirit that makes you do somehting that's not biblical based.....


By all means RUN

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #88 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 13:17:50 »
Do you wonder if what you watch on tv could bring a demonic encounter?  

I wanted to see how Satan was working the church... This one's called Holy Laughter or Drunk in the Spirit both of which are not biblical..... And in fact demonic. I wanted to work on becoming wise as a serpent by seeing how and what the serpent does and he does well in the church.... While I did this I realized that I had invited this into my home (1john :10) front door also means your tv....

What Verse(s) do they twist Act 2:1-15 with verse 13 the actual verse they use. False preachers like mr browne try to say that v13 is their proof of being drunk ( uncontroled laughter) in the spirit or holy laughter.... This is where people lost control and cannot stop laughing, sometimes laying on the floor and in some cases there's been barking like a dog or roaring like a lion.... (as soon as people think maybe it's demonic (barking ect) the demons back off.... Until people will maybe accept it later on) now these verses clearly say these men were MOCKING them about being drunk which should tell you right there these men (v13) wernt right.  Not only that these men were speaking in other mens tongues which was proof of Gods backing of these men (v4) but since most Christian churches only teach the milk of the word (heb 5:12-13 + 6:1-2) there by the believer doesn't study to see if what he says that verses are true or not.... Devil loves unskilled believers.....

So I was watching RHB's the great awakening which is on all the time here in Florida.... But this was a LIVE revival going on which had scrolling across the bottom not given amounts of money but that they were laughing instead..... (reason for viewing was to see how the devil was working and to see them laugh.... Nothing was going on except RHB talking about revival coming. I was about to change the channel when just an ominous feeling came over me (I didn't move blink or breath) thankfully two weeks earlier I had come to the conclusion that it was demonic... Thank God! Anyway to myself I said "I don't like this" and I next said "no way" I could tell it was trying to make me laugh..... That was a trip and had I been looking for the so called "holy spirit" to come over me no doubt I would of also started laughing and there's no way your spirit stays within you as you are also indwelled by a demon...... I could also see (not visual but in spirit a horizontal line that was all wiggley (sp) and I took it for a mouth and like it was trying to 'crack' a smile (it was as if someone stood in front of you trying to crack a smile and make you laugh) I could also see a jagged line all around me..... And could sense it was right in my face on my right side like a drill sergant, and after about 30 seconds it was over.... That night I didn't think about it but over the next nites I did... I recalled reading that when this spirit comes over you it has a electric feeling to the air..... Although I can't say I resisted the devil as I didn't know what it was at the time I froze. I really think what saved me was that even though I had no idea what was happning or that it was a demon I did know that it was demonic and that I would have nothing to do with it and I really believe the holy spirit stood on this in protecting me and how easy did I get off as I invited the devil in by watching the false teacher.....

My son is unsaved and he was just on the other side of the wall and if I had laughed my son could of then heard and came out and been open to demons because of my foolishness....

A spirit came to many others and they beliving it was of God invite it in.. They fail to confirm the spirit with the word!!!! They compared the word to the spirit because they never studied what Acts is really about and it cost them dearly..... Now the holy spirit is gone (at best they can repent) but until then a spirit can come an go as they please..... They foolishly believe that because laughter is fun... Good that it has to be from God cause devils are ugly and only do bad things....... Back in the eightys Greg Larson (nut job) described demons with fangs and bumps claws and this ur I heard someone use the same exact description and I knew it's just the devils way to get people to think all demons excounters are like the movie the exorcist so when they come like a angel of light you are fooled......


I learned an easy lesson.....
praise God



 

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #89 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 13:24:18 »
Willet said

How sad for you, to think that coming to your Father means sitting in a pew, "soberly" watching the clock, hoping the dry, boring sermon will soon be over.  I would say I can't imagine that, but unfortunately I can.  All too well.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

oh so it's either holy laughter or the above?


Lol come on williet....

Offline Bitter Sweet

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #90 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 13:44:25 »


Lol come on williet....

Actually, this discussion is making me laugh!   

Offline chosenone

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #91 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 14:23:39 »
I repeat my question.
All that you seem bothered with is this Holy laughter. Have you even actually seen this in person? Have you ever been to a vineyard church?. Have you even been to any church that allows God to work using the gifts?Have you even been filled with the Spirit?

Offline Willie T

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #92 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 14:27:16 »
Sorry, I was off working out at the gym for a couple of hours.

I'm supposed to answer something?  Oh yeah, enjoying being with God or not.  I think you said, KB, that you are supposed to be sober or somber or something.

Me, I think I'll keep on looking forward to every moment I get to be with other Christians, and enjoying God's fellowship.  You can keep on doing whatever it is you do....... just don't smile.

Offline Willie T

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #93 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 14:35:46 »
I just caught up some, and read post #89.

What a horrible shame.  God actually invited you.  And you refused.  And you denied your son the chance, too?  This the saddest thing I have yet heard on this forum.

Offline Willie T

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #94 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 14:53:20 »
Oh, to have such a special opportunity that you gave up to continue playing church.

I, personally, have never enjoyed Holy Laughter.  Not me nor my wife.  We both went to a RHB meeting.... the revival is just down the hiway from us... but ask as we might, we got nothing.  Oh, some warm times, but no laughter.  Kind of saddened us, but it just didn't happen.

But to actually have God come right into your living room like you did, and to turn your back on it.... I can't fathom.  The only thing worse might be to deny the free gift of Jesus as some here do, and insist on staying under the very law He came to free us from, and try to somehow earn what He already died for us to have.
« Last Edit: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 14:54:57 by Willie T »

Offline WILDJC

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #95 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 16:02:40 »
Lively stone said:

Yes, and he learns from me.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

a mans NOT suppose to get his learning from a woman!



1Cor 14:34 let your women keep silent in the churches
14:35 and if they will learn ANYTHING let them ask their husbands at home.


1Tim 2:12 but I suffer NOT a woman to TEACH - NOR to upsurp authority over a man
(your teaching on grace forums - would God go against himself and bless your teaching?

No ofcourse not... That's why you and I disagree on many things...... Woman



Ouch!


You should examine this further. Because if you did, you would see that Paul speaks of his own opinion and distinguishes his own take on this and not of the Lord's.

But, to the rest, speak I, not the Lord.

But I speak this by permission and not of commandment.

For I would that all men were as I myself.

Amen.
« Last Edit: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 16:18:54 by WILDJC »

Lively Stone

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #96 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 16:10:56 »
So lively stone you can't give a verse to show uncontroled laughter as being bibical?


Didn't think so..... Use acts 2 because that what THEY use to prove it


So the church comes and bring holy laughter and says acts 2 is the basis for it..

You then laugh uncontrollable and don't believe you need anything to show it's of god...


Wonderful!

A true manifestation of Holy Spirit is characterized by the fact that it is controllable.

Lively Stone

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #97 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 16:15:51 »
Livelystone said:

1Cor 14:34 let your women keep silent in the churches
14:35 and if they will learn ANYTHING let them ask their husbands at home.

I knew you'd fly off the handle.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:


Oh so when Gods word condemns you, I'm flying off the handle...


So you don't like those verses that condemn you and you still think God blesses your teachings


WOW...... Gods word condemns you not me.... Woman have a problem with those verses


You certainly can't teach on theose verses so what?


You have to skip them.... Your foolish to think God would go against his word for you

I am not condemned, and you have no right to do so. You haven't the full understanding of what Paul teaches on the subject, so you need to just hush.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:1 is about salvation

and has nothing to do with going against gods word on women.

No, the verse is about condemnation and God is letting us know that we are not condemned and we need to not take anyone's condemnation on board. It is the enemy who tries to condemn the people of God. Satan is the accuser, and he steals the truth of the word of God from people, and is very effective at confusing people concerning the passages about women.

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #98 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 16:17:05 »
Let's see if this will clear it up for you..


As I said holy laughter is a vineyard product like it or not.

But to see if holy laughter is biblical Should be easy...


Those who teach holy laughter, such as Rodney Howard browne claim they use the verse of ACT 2 for their bases of Holy laughter or drunk in the spirit....


But since we know that the men wernt drunk and were only speaking in other languages.

So when it comes to uncontrolable laughter one would think it would be easy to understand that holy laughter is NOT BASED ON THE BIBLE AS THEY TEACH THE CHURCH!
 
One should see the Ways of the devil at work just because they tell them a false meaning to scripture

Offline Willie T

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #99 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 16:26:53 »
Lively,
I don't know if I posted this before, but I thought it might bring some Holy Laughter to you.  This is some of our book study group doing this.

[youtube]
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[/youtube]

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #100 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 17:06:20 »
More than ever, Christians must distinguish whether a move in the Church is of God or not. The Apostle John warned believers: “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1, NASV).

What about those who base their confidence on mere emotions and assert possession of “power evangelism” because of signs and wonders? If something is unexplainable and lacks real biblical support, can it really be a move from God? What if some practice creates chaos and frenzy, should it not be condemned on the basis of 1 Corinthians 12-14? Jesus Himself exhorted us: “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect” (Matthew 24:24, NASV).

In 1983, John Wimber broke ranks with the fellowship of Calvary Chapel to align himself with six other churches. A few years later, in 1987, they formed officially as the Association of Vineyard Churches. (See further, The Quarterly Journal, Vol. 15, No. 2.) Wimber serves as Founder and International Director of the Association.

Wimber’s sect has grown worldwide to nearly 550 congregations. In recent months its most noteworthy gathering has been the Toronto Airport Vineyard. Its purported “spiritual renewal,” manifested in laughing and the utterance of animal noises, has gained the attention of Christian and secular media.

These demonstrations of “God’s Spirit” have caused much controversy, so much so that last Dec. 5, the American Vineyard Board and Council ousted the Toronto Airport Vineyard at a meeting in Toronto. At the gathering, Wimber announced the decision to Airport’s senior pastor, John Arnott. Among those at the meeting were Robert Fulton and Todd Hunter, American colleagues; and Gary Best, the Canadian Vineyard coordinator. The ouster became official Jan. 20.

An “open letter” for general distribution from John Arnott states that the decision came as a surprise and that “we were offered no opportunity for discussion. We were removed without due process.” He indicated, however, that they “will be parting on friendly terms.” Growing universal concern of “The Toronto Blessing” is said to be the reason for disengagement.

According to the February 1996 issue of Charisma magazine,

“The issue centers in part on the unusual animal-like behavior — such as roaring or barking — that is sometimes manifested during renewal meetings at the Toronto church. Wimber said Arnott and his staff repeatedly were warned not to promote, encourage or theologize the animal behavior and the accompanying sounds” (pg. 12).

The Charismatic periodical also noted “members of the board, however, [thought that] the decision to release the Toronto church was not a rash one. In September 1994, the denomination’s position on the renewal was hashed out in an emergency session of the board and distributed to all Vineyard pastors. Over a 14-month period, Wimber said, the Toronto leaders repeatedly violated the guidelines contained in the position report. The 20-member board voted unanimously to release Toronto from the denomination.”

With the controversial (holy laughter) “renewal” taking place in Canada, Wimber apparently has had difficulty explaining to the media this “current move of God.” He became apprehensive about the manifestations of animal noises that are a part of the “blessings” in Toronto. Arnott’s open letter further stated that Wimber “felt he could no longer answer questions, including innuendoes and rumours regarding the renewal services. Rather than ask us to revamp the renewal meetings, they released us to continue as we believe God is leading us. ... [Wimber] feels the AVC Board is not called to shepherd something outside the ministry model God has given them.”

Although reports have circulated that other Vineyard fellowships, including ones in Pasadena and St. Louis, have resigned, it is not expected to cause a major split.

These “blessings” or “renewals” began in North America through the influence of South African evangelist Rodney Howard-Browne (see The Quarterly Journal, Vol. 14, No. 4). Howard-Browne, who calls himself a “Holy Ghost bartender,” fosters a laughing revival wherever he preaches.

In 1993, Howard-Browne led a series of meetings at Kenneth Hagin’s church in Tulsa, Okla., which St. Louis Vineyard pastor Randy Clarke attended. Clarke, through a series of subsequent encounters with other Vineyard pastors, later imparted the laughing revival to the Toronto church in 1994. As a result, well over 50,000 people had visited the Airport Vineyard Church that year. These people are to bring the “blessing” back to their home church for “times of refreshing” there. In Canada, the “blessing” has become a buzzword; those who have experienced it are considered elite.

What have these events proven? What are the fruits of this movement? How are people growing in Christ? Does the Vineyard church base their confidence on merely emotions, signs and wonders or on balanced teaching and biblical truth?

In spite of ties being severed by the AVC, it is odd that John Wimber stated in the Jan. 8, 1996, issue of Christianity Today: “I believe that there has been an authentic visitation of the Spirit there. However, I am unable because of my own scriptural and theological convictions to any longer give an answer for, or defend the way, this particular move is being pastored and/or explained” (pg. 66).

Equally odd is Wimber’s endorsement of Arnott’s book, The Father’s Blessing, an autobiographical account of the “Toronto Blessing,” and other works sympathetic to the purported “renewal.”

Then there’s the National Coordinator of Vineyard Churches, Todd Hunter, who told Christianity Today: “Wimber’s own statements had made it clear that board members wanted the renewal in Toronto to move toward greater scriptural emphasis.”

Hunter himself, at an October 1994 service at the Vineyard Fellowship in Mission Viejo, Calif., had members of the congregation shrieking and bellowing (one woman even squealing like a pig) while he said: “This is normal Christianity!”

It is the duty of Church authority to expose heresy as it manifests itself in the name of Christianity. Unhealthy spiritual consequences, including shipwrecked faith, will nearly always follow the rise of false teachings. Doctrine and theology should be tried and confirmed by the Word of God; our faith and trust is in Him alone. And in His unerring Word.

Despite Wimber’s proclamations, what are the roots of the Vineyard movement? Does Wimber and the Vineyard church wish to embrace sound doctrine? “Holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, that he may be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict” (Titus 1:9).

In the October 1982 issue of Christian Life magazine, Wimber demonstrated his indifference to sound doctrine. On page 10 a question he posed to Peter Wagner (his associate from Charles E. Fuller Institute of Evangelism and Church Growth) is quoted: “Would you object if I started a Bible class in my home based on what the Bible says and then attempted to demonstrate it by doing what first century Christians did... no theology — just Biblical study and application?” (emphasis added).

Does the bottom line indicate that the Vineyard church wishes to promote biblical interpretation? In a church-planting seminar in 1981, Wimber said: “Calvaryites [Calvary Chapel attendees] are sometimes a little too heavily oriented to the written Word. I know that sounds a little dangerous, but frankly they’re very Pharisaical in their allegiance to the Bible. They have very little life, and growth and spontaneity in their innards. Sometimes they’re very rigid and can’t receive much of the things of the Lord.”

Does Wimber deviate from God’s Word because of an extra-biblical mind-set? Do his teachings reveal discord with that of the Bible in his theology and methodology?

Consider his words from the Vineyard ‘83 Leadership Conference, “The Five Year Plan”: “All that is in the Bible is true but not all truth is in the Bible. We integrate all truth, both Biblical and other, into our experience of living.” Also, from his 1981 Church Planting Seminar, he stated, “God is greater than His word.”

Additionally, Vineyard churches have repeatedly confirmed their fixation on experience and outward manifestations. In a paper dated April 20, 1994, and “written to help teach the Champaign [Ill.] Vineyard church body good techniques for enhancing times of ministry” with “some helpful hints” we find these “Tips for Facilitating Ministry as a Leader”:

“3. If you don’t notice any outward manifestations of the Holy Spirit, ask those who sense a strong anointing within them to come for ministry. This might manifest as a burning, tingling, or ‘knowing,’ etc.”

and

“8. Some children have even been reported as being fearful of some of the manifestations they have experienced such as being pinned to the floor.”

In the section, “Tips for Praying for People” we read:

“7a. Help them to deal with a tendency to rationalize, with their fears, or with a loss of control.”

Further, in the last section titled, “Tips for Receiving Ministry” it states:

“2. Experience it before trying to analyze it. It is something like worshipping God, which has no rational explanation. Others have likened it to kissing, which is more emotional than analytical.”

The above statements contradict Paul’s exhortations to learn and follow sound doctrine. As a result, one is faced with confusion and disorder riding the emotional waves of the aberrant teachings of the Vineyard movement.

Indeed, Wimber and his associates, with their emotional guidance system, have created a “monster” that they now find hard to control. Wimber’s own life-threatening battle with cancer is a forceful illustration to the deficiency of his “power evangelism.” One should not place trust in subjective and supernatural encounters. Such encounters are so often of the flesh or the devil. The Word of God is our final authority and the foundation for our walk with Him. Caution is a prerequisite when dealing with those who claim to represent Christ.

Lively Stone

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #101 on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 20:25:09 »
Re: KB's diatribe about the Vineyard:







It is nothing but cut and paste hype.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #102 on: Sat Aug 04, 2012 - 02:46:15 »
You appear to be avoiding my question.You claim to know all about the vineyard church but have you even been to one?. Have you even been filled with the spirit and been used in the spiritual gifts?Are you against the spiritual gifts such as tongues and prophecy?
<My vineyard church was nothing like you describe. My son was converted at a vineyard church and is an amazing man of God.
All you know is what you have read apparently. ::shrug::

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #103 on: Sun Aug 05, 2012 - 21:15:29 »
Because of the fact that it is impacting the church and we are being told that it is of the Holy Spirit, it is important that we be a Bereans (Acts 17:10-11), and go to scriptures to determine if these things are so.

In support of their contention that drunkenness is not only acceptable, but is of God, the proponents typically refer to Acts 2:

Acts 2:5-8

And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Clearly, a miracle had taken place. I will skip ahead a few verses, where we see the discussion about what exactly it was that had just taken place:

Acts 2:12-13

And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
Note that the "mockers" were trying to discredit the events and the preaching of the gospel by suggesting that the apostles had consumed too much "new wine, and therefore were drunk.

Matthew Henry's Bible Commentary has this to say, "The scorn which some made of it who were natives of Judea and Jerusalem, probably the scribes and Pharisees and chief priests, who always resisted the Holy Ghost; they said, These men are full of new wine, or sweet wine; they have drunk too much this festival-time, v 13. And, if they called the Master of the house a wine-bibber, no marvel if they so call those of his house-hold."
Let's go on to what scripture tells us in response to the accusations of the mockers:

Acts 2:14

But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
So, Peter is clear that the mockers were not presenting the reality of the situation by suggesting that they were drunk. Note that Peter does not qualify that statement by suggesting that it was not wine, no, he leaves no opening for any type of drunkenness. Further, and quite contrary to drunkenness was clear preaching of the gospel, as see in the part of the sermon which is transcribed in scripture in Acts 2:22-39.

Contrary to what we see in drunkenness in the spirit, we did not see any record of the preacher staggering, we do not see any record of slurred speech or inability to speak, quite the contrary. We see that the only people who even tried to bring forward such a false accusation were the mockers. We see that the apostles spoke the gospel so clearly, and so boldly, and we see a miracle such that all heard in their own language such that 3000 people were saved that day (Acts 2:41).

Those who make the accusation that the apostles were drunk in the spirit at Pentecost stand in harmony with the views of the mockers, not in harmony with the apostles as recorded in scripture.

Throughout the New Testament, we see many times that scripture mentions the infilling of the Holy Spirit, but never does it associate either the symptoms of or mention of drunkenness in the spirit as being associated with it. Indeed, we see admonitions in scripture to avoid drunkenness:

Eph 5:18

Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.
In 1 Peter 4:7, we see that scripture goes a step further, and urges us to keep a clear mind so that we can pray.

But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
It is interesting that we find associated with this movement, exhortations not to pray during their "ministry" time. It appears that they have discovered what scripture says, and that is that God, prayer and drunkenness are not compatible, and indeed the spirit that causes drunkenness and the one true God are not compatible.

So, we see that the apostles were not drunk at Pentecost, in the spirit or otherwise, but does the Bible mention drunkenness, and if so what does it say about it? Lets go to another verse which is commonly used to support drunkenness in the spirit:

Jer 23:9-11

Concerning the prophets:
My heart is broken within me;all my bones tremble.
I am like a drunken man,like a man overcome by wine,because of the Lord and his holy words.The land is full of adulterers;because of the curse the land lies parched
and the pastures in the desert are withered.
The prophets follow an evil course
and use their power unjustly.
Both prophet and priest are godless;
even in my temple I find their wickedness,
declares the Lord.
This passage is understood by many exegetes as having been written in the time of Zedekiah's reign, when false prophets (among others) sorely oppressed Jeremiah. As the Matthew Henry Commentary says,

He expresses what a trouble it was for him to see men who pretended to a divine commission and inspiration ruining themselves, and the people among whom they dwelt, by their falsehood and treachery..............Jeremiah was a man who laid things much to heart, and what was in any way threatening to his country made a deep impression upon his spirits...........He trembled to think of the ruin and desolation which were coming from the face of the Lord (so the word is) and from the face of the word of his holiness.
There is no indication in this passage that Jeremiah was overcome by a spirit of drunkenness, rather it appears, as this commentary says, that he was so very distraught about what was happening, and about the judgement which would fall upon the people because of the false prophets that he liken his state to that of a drunken man.

If there be a connection between this passage, and it application to what we see today, it can only be with regard to a coming judgement due to false prophecy. In no way can it be suggested that this verse justifies an experience such as drunkenness in the spirit without taking the entire verse out of context.

Isaiah also speaks of drunkenness, but perhaps his references get closer to what we see happening today:

Isa 29:9-10

Be stunned and amazed,blind yourself and be sightless;be drunk, but not from wine,stagger, but not from beer.The Lord has brought over you a deep sleep;
He has sealed your eyes (the prophets);
he has covered your heads (the seers).
As can be seen in Isa. 6:9-10, Isaiah was very aware that his word wouldn't be accepted. Thus, in contrast to the Jeremiah who was a true prophet who was so distraught that he likened his state to that of a drunken man, those who are discussed in this passage of Isaiah's that are described as drunk the false prophets.

Further, what we see in this passage is that these false prophets are drunk and scripture is very specific that it is a judgement brought on them from the Lord, and that it is not as a result of drink, but rather it is a spiritual drunkenness. IT further says that they display the outward signs of drunkenness such as staggering.

The churches today who are in this movement are in large discouraging use of scripture in favour of new revelation from their prophets, many of whom are drunk and staggering in church from what we hear from reports from within the movement.

Isaiah also describes drunkenness in Chapter 63.

Isa 63:6

I trampled the nations in my anger;
in my wrath I made them drunk
and poured their blood on the ground.
The use of this verse in opposing drunkenness in the spirit is questioned by some in the movement who say that this is not applicable because it refers to the coming of the Redeemer. As one person wrote to me:

God's winepress, and the wine he presents, are prophetically used to represent God's wrath (cf. Rev. 14:19-20; 19:11-16). Revelation shows this as referring to Christ at his second coming -- *not* prior to, but _at_ his coming... what we call Armageddon.
Again, refers to drunkenness, though, and not positively. Still it is judgement. Whether it refers to a future event, and whether it refers to an event prior to or at the Second Coming is not valid, because God does not have situational ethics or morals. He is the same yesterday, today and forever (Heb 13:8).

So, where are there any positive references to drunkenness? I have not found any in scripture, and to date, no one has been able to come forward with any scriptural basis where we are exhorted to drunkenness or where God provides for, or the Holy Spirit causes or endorses, or any men of God speak positively of drunkenness in scriptures. Yet the movement promotes drunkenness in the spirit very strongly. So strongly that we see Rodney Howard-Browne call himself the "Holy Ghost Bartender", we see websites such as "Tim Gibson's Drinking Songs", and we see conferences titled or advertised in such ways as to promote drunkenness. We see men such as John Kilpatrick speak positively about drunkenness in the spirit, and we see testimonies everywhere about drunkenness.


Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #104 on: Sun Aug 05, 2012 - 21:24:53 »
You appear to be avoiding my question.You claim to know all about the vineyard church but have you even been to one?. Have you even been filled with the spirit and been used in the spiritual gifts?Are you against the spiritual gifts such as tongues and prophecy?
<My vineyard church was nothing like you describe. My son was converted at a vineyard church and is an amazing man of God.
All you know is what you have read apparently. ::shrug::


No not avoiding I just don't live online.... I gave My story about Rodney Howard browne in this Post I believe.... When the spirit came to make me laugh I knew it was a devil....

Since mr browne is a Vineyard man I believe I have knowledge about holylaughter..


No where did I say all vineyard churches do this, but these manifestations ARE a product of the Vineyard churches and the leaders who started them!  Toronto blessing (go ahead and read about it) had the laughter ..... And barks and grunts..... And MANY pastor have come over the years to get the BLESSING or ANOINTING..... no where does scripture tell believers the Holy spirit does this to us....

I'm can't say I'm sorry in the least for going against you... The bible doesn't support it


Therefore it's not of God....

No matter how much you love your church
or the pastor or friends orhow good it makes you feel...

Were suppose to test the spirits

and we do this by finding it in scripture.... If we can't then we should know it's not of God!

 

     
anything