Author Topic: Vineyard churches (Some questions)  (Read 7025 times)

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Lily76

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Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« on: Sun Jul 15, 2012 - 19:58:25 »

Ok I was discussing with few people joining a Vineyard church. And, Carey did not want me to mess up the music thread lol. So I will post this here.

Well there are few reasons why I wanted to try a new church, but I do not think it is important to mention them here.

I joined an evangelical church (low Anglican Church) when I became a Christian just few years ago  ::blushing:: I really had no idea about different churches. That was where my husband and his family go and I just joined them. I think they are good and kind people, but I really feel isolated, and I would love to be in a church where I can do some activities with people in my age so it does not feel like it is a duty for me to go to a church anymore.
 
I heard about Vineyard Churches from Chosenone, and I think I will love to join this church or something similar. I’m an Artist and my husband is a musician. I always thought those churches where people sing and play music are rare, but I was very surprised to find many of them here where I live. (Still need to find a good one in Québec as well.)

They gave me some documents to read (44 pages!) I have to answer some questions about what attracts me to be here and why would I want to join ect…. and then I have to agree on the statement of faith (I have no problem with it) and it sounds like I have to follow some rules and sign it and send it back to them. I never did something like this to be a member of the Anglican Evangelical church and my husband joined 2 churches and he never had to sign a contract or papers. I always thought I can just go to any informal church and be part of it, no? Is this usual? It looks like they do a lot of godly activities and they want everyone to be doing something which is good. But, I just never did something like this before. This is gonna be my second church so I have no clue if this is ok or wrong to make people sign on something?

I just visited the church today.

It is located at the Lutheran School in Chicago.

The church looks awesome. Lots of them are students so that is just perfect for me :)

Those what I got to read and sign: http://storage.cloversites.com/hydeparkvineyardchurch/documents/Vineyard%20Essentials.pdf

Partnership Commitment
I have considered this commitment prayerfully, and in order to help accomplish the mission of
the Hyde Park Vineyard Church, I commit myself to the following:
1. I commit to staying in touch with Jesus.  I have been born again by God's Spirit (John 3:3)
and am committed to continued spiritual growth.  I have been baptized.
2. I commit to Hyde Park Vineyard Church's purposes and priorities.
3. I commit to attend Vineyard Sunday Morning and a weekly small group (If you are
committed to a small group with another organization, this may count for your small group
accountability and support).
Which small group? _______________________
4. I commit to substantial and regular financial giving to God for the support of the work of
Hyde Park Vineyard Church.
5. I commit to being a minister and being part of at least one ministry here at the Vineyard. 
Which area of service? ______________________________________
6. I commit to follow the leadership set by the pastors and Church Board of the Vineyard.
7. I commit to Hyde Park Vineyard Church's statement of faith.
Name: _____________________________________
Signature: _____________________________________
Date: _____________________________________


Here is the site: Hyde Park Vineyard Church:  http://www.thevc.org/#/welcome

They got a youtube video

Hyde Park Vineyard Church Small | Large


.....
....

This looks like a good Vineyard church, there are many others in Chicago, but this one looks very Alive to me.

Thank you,

Lily76

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #1 on: Sun Jul 15, 2012 - 20:18:50 »

Quote
I see! Thank you, Carey!

This is something some churches do in a way of garnering committed adherents. It is a partnership agreement where people are encouraged to consider making that local body their home church, in lieu of membership. There are many churches today that struggle with a transient congregation. This gives the leadership a demonstrable indication of how committed their people are, and who they can count on for committed ministry and support of the work there. What with the often-seen pattern of people coming and going and church hopping, it is a pretty good aid in causing people to really contemplate putting roots down and allowing God to use them where he has led them.


sorry Lively Stone. I posted this before I see your post in the other thread :(

So you think this is acceptable? I personally have no problem with it. I just want to make sure it is not morally wrong to do this in a church.

larry2

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #2 on: Sun Jul 15, 2012 - 20:48:29 »

Quote
I see! Thank you, Carey!

This is something some churches do in a way of garnering committed adherents. It is a partnership agreement where people are encouraged to consider making that local body their home church, in lieu of membership. There are many churches today that struggle with a transient congregation. This gives the leadership a demonstrable indication of how committed their people are, and who they can count on for committed ministry and support of the work there. What with the often-seen pattern of people coming and going and church hopping, it is a pretty good aid in causing people to really contemplate putting roots down and allowing God to use them where he has led them.


sorry Lively Stone. I posted this before I see your post in the other thread :(

So you think this is acceptable? I personally have no problem with it. I just want to make sure it is not morally wrong to do this in a church.


1 Corinthians 1:12  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:4  For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
 
Do you really want to be of Vineyard?

Offline Carey

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #3 on: Sun Jul 15, 2012 - 21:08:17 »
And, Carey did not want me to mess up the music thread lol. So I will post this here.

 ::doh::

 ::pondering::

Yeah cause Carey done enough posting OT in that thread already.  ::whistle::

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just to make this post more topical, I do find the term "substantial" in clause #4 distasteful.   I guess it keeps out the riffraff.  ::frown::


Lily76

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #4 on: Sun Jul 15, 2012 - 21:17:47 »

Quote
I see! Thank you, Carey!

This is something some churches do in a way of garnering committed adherents. It is a partnership agreement where people are encouraged to consider making that local body their home church, in lieu of membership. There are many churches today that struggle with a transient congregation. This gives the leadership a demonstrable indication of how committed their people are, and who they can count on for committed ministry and support of the work there. What with the often-seen pattern of people coming and going and church hopping, it is a pretty good aid in causing people to really contemplate putting roots down and allowing God to use them where he has led them.


sorry Lively Stone. I posted this before I see your post in the other thread :(

So you think this is acceptable? I personally have no problem with it. I just want to make sure it is not morally wrong to do this in a church.


1 Corinthians 1:12  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:4  For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
 
Do you really want to be of Vineyard?

Well I really love music and I want to be with students or at least with a little young people.

That church is located at the school so I'm sure I'll enjoy being one of them :(

It is not wrong to be at a different church, right?

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #4 on: Sun Jul 15, 2012 - 21:17:47 »



Lily76

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #5 on: Sun Jul 15, 2012 - 21:27:25 »
And, Carey did not want me to mess up the music thread lol. So I will post this here.

 ::doh::

 ::pondering::

Yeah cause Carey done enough posting OT in that thread already.  ::whistle::

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just to make this post more topical, I do find the term "substantial" in clause #4 distasteful.   I guess it keeps out the riffraff.  ::frown::

Well. If my money spread the word of God, then I have no problem with it. I have a job and I run a business so it will not affect me personally.

But yeah it also stopped me to think a little because that is also something i did not do at my church. I dunno if this is wrong or not?

Lively Stone

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #6 on: Sun Jul 15, 2012 - 22:48:43 »

Quote
I see! Thank you, Carey!

This is something some churches do in a way of garnering committed adherents. It is a partnership agreement where people are encouraged to consider making that local body their home church, in lieu of membership. There are many churches today that struggle with a transient congregation. This gives the leadership a demonstrable indication of how committed their people are, and who they can count on for committed ministry and support of the work there. What with the often-seen pattern of people coming and going and church hopping, it is a pretty good aid in causing people to really contemplate putting roots down and allowing God to use them where he has led them.


sorry Lively Stone. I posted this before I see your post in the other thread :(

So you think this is acceptable? I personally have no problem with it. I just want to make sure it is not morally wrong to do this in a church.

After we left our former church (where I was a member for decades and grew up there), it changed and in the last decade has plummeted in membership---but when the new leadership moved in, the partnership commitment was offered and many people left because of it, as the existing members were pretty much forced to sign. since I learned of it, I have come to see it is not bad or immoral, but no one should be coerced into signing. Wasn't it given to you as a part of a visitor's packet? I shouldn't think you would be expected to sign anything before you have had a proper amount of time to gauge whether this is a good fit for you.  I certainly do question any church that accepts anyone off the street to enter into ministry without getting to know people and allowing the people to know them, and not before leadership can assess for fruit in their lives---and I wouldn't condone a church suggesting to any newcomer to commit to financial support unless they were actually considering staying. So, on the whole, not a bad thing, but I would never let a newcomer take on the challenge of this questionnaire. It is far too premature, especially for a Vineyard church, which caters to the transient and seekers.

I think that as you have this questionnaire in your hands, you can take the time to look at it, but if I were you, I wouldn't fill it out for SEVERAL weeks or even months.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 15, 2012 - 22:53:48 by Lively Stone »

Lily76

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #7 on: Mon Jul 16, 2012 - 00:09:25 »

Quote
I see! Thank you, Carey!

This is something some churches do in a way of garnering committed adherents. It is a partnership agreement where people are encouraged to consider making that local body their home church, in lieu of membership. There are many churches today that struggle with a transient congregation. This gives the leadership a demonstrable indication of how committed their people are, and who they can count on for committed ministry and support of the work there. What with the often-seen pattern of people coming and going and church hopping, it is a pretty good aid in causing people to really contemplate putting roots down and allowing God to use them where he has led them.


sorry Lively Stone. I posted this before I see your post in the other thread :(

So you think this is acceptable? I personally have no problem with it. I just want to make sure it is not morally wrong to do this in a church.

After we left our former church (where I was a member for decades and grew up there), it changed and in the last decade has plummeted in membership---but when the new leadership moved in, the partnership commitment was offered and many people left because of it, as the existing members were pretty much forced to sign. since I learned of it, I have come to see it is not bad or immoral, but no one should be coerced into signing. Wasn't it given to you as a part of a visitor's packet? I shouldn't think you would be expected to sign anything before you have had a proper amount of time to gauge whether this is a good fit for you.  I certainly do question any church that accepts anyone off the street to enter into ministry without getting to know people and allowing the people to know them, and not before leadership can assess for fruit in their lives---and I wouldn't condone a church suggesting to any newcomer to commit to financial support unless they were actually considering staying. So, on the whole, not a bad thing, but I would never let a newcomer take on the challenge of this questionnaire. It is far too premature, especially for a Vineyard church, which caters to the transient and seekers.

I think that as you have this questionnaire in your hands, you can take the time to look at it, but if I were you, I wouldn't fill it out for SEVERAL weeks or even months.

Yeah, I just met this lady and she gave me tons of papers to read lol. This application was with other papers she handed to me.

she did not say I have to sign something. she just said read them if I remember correctly. I filled them anyways in case they ask me for it.

Maybe, I can ask them if I can give them this after few months. After all nobody gets to know a place or church on the first visit and deciedes something.

Thank you

Offline kensington

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #8 on: Mon Jul 16, 2012 - 01:32:33 »
What I know of Vineyard churches would fit in the palm of my hand... but what I do know, I'll share. We have one close to where we live. It popped up one day.  I wondered why since there was at least 4 great churches in the immediate area. 

Then I spoke to two close friends I have known since before I got saved, both married to pastors now. Vineyard people came into their church services, got to know some of the people in the congregation, and talked them into leaving and going to new church popping up. I was concerned about such a thing being true, so I checked... they did it to all of the churches around here. Wooed their membership away.  I find the practice to be underhanded. Shameful.

The Church families they wooed people from were good hard working churches....  I would not attend one. My husband has asked me a few time if I wanted to visit there and check it out.... my reply is "NO.. not even tempted".

Maybe that is why they want contracts right away with you...  they sneak you away from your church famiy, and hurry you to sigh a covenant with them so they can keep you attending, paying tieths to them, building them faster. They want you bound to them.

Lively Stone

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #9 on: Mon Jul 16, 2012 - 01:39:26 »
What I know of Vineyard churches would fit in the palm of my hand... but what I do know, I'll share. We have one close to where we live. It popped up one day.  I wondered why since there was at least 4 great churches in the immediate area. 

Then I spoke to two close friends I have known since before I got saved, both married to pastors now. Vineyard people came into their church services, got to know some of the people in the congregation, and talked them into leaving and going to new church popping up. I was concerned about such a thing being true, so I checked... they did it to all of the churches around here. Wooed their membership away.  I find the practice to be underhanded. Shameful.

The Church families they wooed people from were good hard working churches....  I would not attend one. My husband has asked me a few time if I wanted to visit there and check it out.... my reply is "NO.. not even tempted".

Maybe that is why they want contracts right away with you...  they sneak you away from your church famiy, and hurry you to sigh a covenant with them so they can keep you attending, paying tieths to them, building them faster. They want you bound to them.

Wow, that is dishonourable behaviour! I wouldn't set foot in a church that did that, either. But let it be known, that such behaviour is not something that the Vineyard would condone---at all. Obviously it was a few underhanded, and spiritually misguided people who tried to steal sheep from other folds. Some people have far more zeal than they have brains!

I know it would be a hard thing  not to lump all of the Vineyard  churches together, but believe me, it is a wonderfully spiritually free denomination.

I think the only thing that Lily can do is to take things slow and build some rapport with people there, and let God take it from there.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 16, 2012 - 01:40:58 by Lively Stone »

Offline chosenone

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #10 on: Mon Jul 16, 2012 - 02:07:47 »
What I know of Vineyard churches would fit in the palm of my hand... but what I do know, I'll share. We have one close to where we live. It popped up one day.  I wondered why since there was at least 4 great churches in the immediate area. 

Then I spoke to two close friends I have known since before I got saved, both married to pastors now. Vineyard people came into their church services, got to know some of the people in the congregation, and talked them into leaving and going to new church popping up. I was concerned about such a thing being true, so I checked... they did it to all of the churches around here. Wooed their membership away.  I find the practice to be underhanded. Shameful.

The Church families they wooed people from were good hard working churches....  I would not attend one. My husband has asked me a few time if I wanted to visit there and check it out.... my reply is "NO.. not even tempted".

Maybe that is why they want contracts right away with you...  they sneak you away from your church famiy, and hurry you to sigh a covenant with them so they can keep you attending, paying tieths to them, building them faster. They want you bound to them.


 Thats not my experience at all. The vineyard church that I went to was totally the opposite, lovely, relaxed and wasnt at all worried about where you went as long as you knew Jesus.The welcomed anyone but didnt even have a need to make you members because as the pastor said quiet righty, if you are a believer you are a member of Gods church anyway. There was no need to be bound in anyway.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #11 on: Mon Jul 16, 2012 - 02:16:49 »

Quote
I see! Thank you, Carey!

This is something some churches do in a way of garnering committed adherents. It is a partnership agreement where people are encouraged to consider making that local body their home church, in lieu of membership. There are many churches today that struggle with a transient congregation. This gives the leadership a demonstrable indication of how committed their people are, and who they can count on for committed ministry and support of the work there. What with the often-seen pattern of people coming and going and church hopping, it is a pretty good aid in causing people to really contemplate putting roots down and allowing God to use them where he has led them.


sorry Lively Stone. I posted this before I see your post in the other thread :(

So you think this is acceptable? I personally have no problem with it. I just want to make sure it is not morally wrong to do this in a church.

  Personally I would not want to sign anything like this when I am just visiting with a view to seeing if it is the church that I want to go to. The vineyard church that I went to here in the UK had no such thing. IN fact the pastor didnt even have a membership,and said that if we are believers we are all members of Christs church. He also never had a collection and just a box at the back of the church if anyone wanted to give financially.So it sounds very different from that one. I suspect that each fellowship decides what they do and how they do it, but if I were you I would say that you are visting to see if you fit in and dont sign anything until you are sure that it is where you want to stay. Even then read it carefully and be wary of signing. I dont believe that we need to sign a form or become members of a church to be part of that church.

I agree with LS in that it was probably just in a  load of papers that you got given to read and look at when you fisrt go, and I am sure that they do not expect you to fill it in or give it back for some time. I am also sure that they wont ask for it. If/when you have been for ages, and feel that you want to sign it then do so, but dont rush.
I am so glad that you like the look of the church and the fact that there are many young people like yourself. Let us know how you get on.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 16, 2012 - 02:23:40 by chosenone »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #12 on: Mon Jul 16, 2012 - 13:36:27 »
I would not join any congregation until I had attended there at least 6 months if not a year just to see how it goes.  Most congregations would not accept an application for membership before then either.

I do find them asking you to sign a bunch of paperwork after your first visit to be disturbing.

Lily76

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #13 on: Mon Jul 16, 2012 - 18:06:12 »

Quote
Vineyard people came into their church services, got to know some of the people in the congregation, and talked them into leaving and going to new church popping up. I was concerned about such a thing being true, so I checked... they did it to all of the churches around here. Wooed their membership away.  I find the practice to be underhanded. Shameful.


That is very disgraceful.

Yes, kensington that is not a Christian behavior.

We do not want to challenge other churches. We are all part of Christ invisible church. They have this on their site:

“Vineyard is to produce world changers and world changing churches who are 100% devoted to Jesus and each other and others in the world.” Almost all of those who helped start the church have moved to new cities, started new careers, and joined new churches, but the fruitfulness of God’s ministry through this church continues to multiply through both the lives of our alumni and our current members.”

But, well I’ll not sign anything until few months. That sounds like what you guys will do. So I think it is the right thing to do because I have no experience and that is why I’m here to ask about this.

Also, I do not want to judge them. Maybe they won't bother asking me about a contract or anything else.


Quote
I agree with LS in that it was probably just in a  load of papers that you got given to read and look at when you fisrt go, and I am sure that they do not expect you to fill it in or give it back for some time. I am also sure that they wont ask for it. If/when you have been for ages, and feel that you want to sign it then do so, but dont rush.
I am so glad that you like the look of the church and the fact that there are many young people like yourself. Let us know how you get on.

Yes chosen, I got this application with other many papers so I’m not sure if they will ask about them soon. If they ask, I’ll just tell them I’m not ready yet. I do not think they will kick me out if I do not sign lol, but I’ll tell you if they ask me about this contract soon. Thanks everyone :)

Offline DaveW

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #14 on: Tue Jul 17, 2012 - 08:24:25 »
Wise choice Lilly.  If there are other Vinyards within driving distance you may want to visit them as well.

And pray a lot for guidance. 

Back in 2002 DW and I were looking for a new congregation when the one we had joined left the network we wanted to be part of. There were 4 other affiliated congregations in the DC Metro area and we took at least 6 months of visiting here one week, there the next week before we decided which to be part of.

Lily76

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #15 on: Tue Jul 17, 2012 - 19:58:01 »
Wise choice Lilly.  If there are other Vinyards within driving distance you may want to visit them as well.

And pray a lot for guidance. 

Back in 2002 DW and I were looking for a new congregation when the one we had joined left the network we wanted to be part of. There were 4 other affiliated congregations in the DC Metro area and we took at least 6 months of visiting here one week, there the next week before we decided which to be part of.

There are few others I found that are just like 15min away from me. I'd love to go to the other Vineyard church I phoned. I think they expected me to come last week but I went to this one lol. There is another Vineyard church, but it says "baptist church" on thier building. I'd love to visit them, too.

The Hyde Park Vineyard Church looks very informal to me. I guess most of them are students majoring in theology. I felt somehow like sitting in a classroom lol but well I will get used to it.

thanks!

Offline Willie T

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #16 on: Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 17:42:23 »
Lilly,
It doesn't sound like you understand the Vineyard Organization.  This is not meant to sound negative, but it is important that you fully grasp the initial intentions of the Vineyard Movement.

You are not looking at a typical American church.  Vineyards are not local church groups designed to settle-in and be "the church over on 30th street".  Vineyards are church planting mechanisms.  The preacher may move on.  Members may sometimes be asked to move with him, if it is reasonable.  It is a dynamic movement with the overall goal of seeing 10,000 churches "planted".  Yes, that's a specific number the originator of the church movement, John Wimber, was given in a vision back in the early 70's.

That questionnaire you have reflects commitments that will fall in step with that goal.  There aren't many passive "pew sitters" in a Vineyard Church.  Not a one of those comments is just a casual churchy-sounding set of simple statements that you can expect to ignore.

It will behoove you to do more digging than you seem to have done.  Joining a Vineyard is not too much different than the kind of daunting commitment the disciples made when they picked up, leaving everything behind, to follow Jesus.

You will find yourself heavily immersed in ministry to the poor and often dirty.  Vineyards welcome addicts, hookers, and ex-cons.  This can sometimes be a bit of a cultural shock to some middle class people.

Truly, I suggest you sit down with their preacher and elders, and find out for sure just what you are signing up for.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #17 on: Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 05:14:29 »
  It is a dynamic movement with the overall goal of seeing 10,000 churches "planted".  Yes, that's a specific number the originator of the church movement, John Wimber, was given in a vision back in the early 70's.
Wimber did not start the Vineyards. He was brought in in the late 70s by Ken Gullikson who did not want to lead a movement or denomination; just a local congregation. I remember reading about Wimbur taking the lead position and that was a few years after the Vineyards started.

I was familiar with Wimbur BEFORE the Vineyards and setting a goal like that sounds right in line with him.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #18 on: Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 06:59:11 »
Lilly,
It doesn't sound like you understand the Vineyard Organization.  This is not meant to sound negative, but it is important that you fully grasp the initial intentions of the Vineyard Movement.

You are not looking at a typical American church.  Vineyards are not local church groups designed to settle-in and be "the church over on 30th street".  Vineyards are church planting mechanisms.  The preacher may move on.  Members may sometimes be asked to move with him, if it is reasonable.  It is a dynamic movement with the overall goal of seeing 10,000 churches "planted".  Yes, that's a specific number the originator of the church movement, John Wimber, was given in a vision back in the early 70's.

That questionnaire you have reflects commitments that will fall in step with that goal.  There aren't many passive "pew sitters" in a Vineyard Church.  Not a one of those comments is just a casual churchy-sounding set of simple statements that you can expect to ignore.

It will behoove you to do more digging than you seem to have done.  Joining a Vineyard is not too much different than the kind of daunting commitment the disciples made when they picked up, leaving everything behind, to follow Jesus.

You will find yourself heavily immersed in ministry to the poor and often dirty.  Vineyards welcome addicts, hookers, and ex-cons.  This can sometimes be a bit of a cultural shock to some middle class people.

Truly, I suggest you sit down with their preacher and elders, and find out for sure just what you are signing up for.

 

The thing is that all vineyard churches are different, depending on where they are and who leads them.. The one that I went to here in the Uk is not that different from the other churches around except just much more informal and relaxed. A normal church with normal people, who dont like the formality of the more mainstream churches.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #19 on: Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 07:22:41 »
You will find yourself heavily immersed in ministry to the poor and often dirty.  Vineyards welcome addicts, hookers, and ex-cons.  This can sometimes be a bit of a cultural shock to some middle class people.
You make it sound like that is a bad thing.

Are those not the VERY people Our Lord calls us to reach?

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #20 on: Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 07:37:00 »
You will find yourself heavily immersed in ministry to the poor and often dirty.  Vineyards welcome addicts, hookers, and ex-cons.  This can sometimes be a bit of a cultural shock to some middle class people.
You make it sound like that is a bad thing.

Are those not the VERY people Our Lord calls us to reach?
  Good point Dave. I guess if you have a church in a rough area, you will have more of the people that Willie described, but it does depend on where the church is.   

Offline Willie T

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #21 on: Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 08:50:19 »
You will find yourself heavily immersed in ministry to the poor and often dirty.  Vineyards welcome addicts, hookers, and ex-cons.  This can sometimes be a bit of a cultural shock to some middle class people.
You make it sound like that is a bad thing.

Are those not the VERY people Our Lord calls us to reach?
THAT's exactly my point.  I choose to tell it like it is - or should be - the same way Jesus did.  Never did He invite people to join up with his group because they were friendly people, or that they had a good time, or that they had a relaxed dress code and played cool music.

Things like that are what most (many) churches stress when talking with people..... and people looking for that are usually what they attract.
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 10:30:28 by Willie T »

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #22 on: Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 00:45:53 »
Isn't vineyard churches into slain in the spirit - holy laughter?
(toronto blessing). 

RUN don't walk......

Do they teach revival? As in bringing in the kingdom
do they teach: word of knowledge or revelation knowledge


RUN don't walk


from: deception in the church:

The Vineyard
 
I left the Walk and joined the Vineyard movement in the late 80’s. The Vineyard is a Charismatic church growth movement characterized by a casual, relaxed atmosphere and an upbeat, modern style of worship music. The Vineyard is at the forefront of a much larger Charismatic revival, lead by the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship (TACF)[9], Peter Wagner, Rick Joyner and the new wave of prophets and apostles rising to prominence. The first thing I noticed about the Vineyard was its music and laid-back preaching style. The music was great and the worship went on for extended periods, the dress was casual and it had a coffee bar at the back. I was to remain in the Vineyard for the next 9 years.
 
I soon discovered there was a reason for the laid back preaching style in the Vineyard: The Vineyard was very laid-back about what it believed. In contrast to the Walk, the Vineyard was very wishy-washy about what it believed and adopted an easy-going approach to the truth. There was lots of warm and fuzzy preaching on God’s love, personal fulfillment, setting and reaching goals, and dreaming big dreams for life. I used to be in sales in the business world, and recognized most of it as repackaged business management-speak and sales motivational teaching that had more to do with Norman Vincent Peal than the Bible.
 
The Vineyard was very pragmatic in its approach to church growth. We were often developing new ways to reach the community through various out-reach programs, such as door-to-door food give-aways, free barbeques, or pop give-aways on street corners. These things are not wrong in themselves, of course, but for all our good works, there was little Gospel content in what we did. We put a lot of thought into how to reach the community, but little consideration into the content of the message we were reaching them with. Most of our growth came from attracting existing Christians to our church with our popular music and coffee-club atmosphere. 
 
The Vineyard also took a pragmatic approach to truth: whatever worked was OK. What Bible teaching there was usually came in the form of “keys” or “steps” to reaching some personal or group goal, such as realizing your full potential. Lots of teaching centered on the mechanics of various “how-to” methodologies, such as ‘how-to journal’ as a method to hear God. How-to pray for the sick. How-to reach the community. How-to minister and receive inner-healing. How-to discover your spiritual ‘gift mix’. How-to interpret dreams, and so on.
 
Often, preaching was little more than subjective ramblings about what the speaker “felt” God was currently saying or doing. And always about how much God loved us and how some wonderful new thing was on the horizon. Always couched in very spiritual terms, but it was typically the leader’s opinions of what God was saying at the moment and seldom was there much, if any, Biblical exposition.
 
In one such very typical service, the entire teaching consisted of gleanings from a secular book on business success that had been written by a Mormon. In another very typical service I recall, the sermon consisted of jokes the Pastor read from a Christian joke book. The only occasions that I can recall in which the pastor actually expounded on the Bible at any length (apart from cherry-picking the occasional, isolated proof text), was when the church started running into the red, and a sermon on tithing was dusted off.
 
Night of the Living Dead
 
Even before the ‘Blessing’ hit the Toronto Airport Vineyard in 1994 we were seeing bizarre manifestations in the Vineyard. In the early 90’s, just before 1994 when the ‘laughing revival’ broke out, there was a Vineyard conference in Kitchener that I still think of as “the night of the living dead”. In this conference, when the altar call was given, a large crowd lurched to the front, probably half the auditorium, and started dancing, twisting, gyrating, and hopping at the front as a “blessing” was prayed over them. Vast numbers of people lurched, crawled, staggered and limped around like a mass of grotesque horror flick zombie’s. The room was filled with all manner of freakish, bizarre and even obscene behavior. One girl was on her back in front of the stage, making orgasmic, thrashing and gyrating motions that could only be described as sexual activity.
 
The Vineyard leaders accepted all this as the moving of the Spirit. The prevailing attitude of the leadership and members was that this was God moving. According to standard Vineyard thinking, the Holy Spirit can do a deep inner work without the mind being informed or knowing what is going on, or without any further knowledge of truth. It was generally acknowledged that some of the bizarre behavior may be demonic in origin, but most of it was the work of the Holy Spirit or the human response to the power of the Holy Spirit at work within. It was believed that the Spirit often worked best and deepest if it could bypass the intellect, and there was no need for the mind to be informed. So we weren’t too concerned because we believed that God was doing a deeper work in them and we simply prayed that God would bless them even more.
 
The “Blessing” Comes to Toronto
 
In the Vineyard, adhering to true doctrine was not as important as just being open to whatever the ‘spirit’ wanted to do. For any leader, it was more important to be lead by the spirit, and as long as a ministry seemed to move in that, and could get results (make “stuff” happen, which in our circles meant healings and manifestations) h/she was assumed to be a man or woman of God regardless of the content of their teaching. Whatever they said was accepted as a message from God.
 
As a result of this mindset, a speaker could say almost anything from a Vineyard pulpit as long as they came packaged with the right charismatic personality and spiritual gifts. In the Vineyard, one of the gravest sins that could be committed was to get too firm on beliefs, since that was considered unloving and divisive. Since questioning a teaching was perceived to be divisive and critical, we seldom ever seriously questioned what was taught or took seriously the Biblical warning to test all teachings and prophetic “words”.
 
Discernment devolved to the level of feelings, intuitive insight and subjective impressions in which no one could know anything for sure, but certain people (usually the ‘prophetic’ types in our midst) were generally trusted to have the right discernment on issues. This attitude fostered a lack of real discernment among Vineyard leaders which opened the doors wide to a large influx of false teachers and false prophets in the early Nineties. I believe it was this lack of discernment, largely due to Biblical illiteracy, that paved the way for the arrival of the Toronto “Blessing” in 1994.
 
Early in January of 1994, I heard that revival[10] had broken out in the Toronto Vineyard and we went up to check it out. Our Vineyard was within an hours drive. Many friends from our Vineyard church also went up that night. We entered the meeting room and I was stunned by the bizarre scene that opened up before us. It was pandemonium everywhere. The large room was crowded with people shaking, bobbing, running on the spot and flapping their arms.
 
I didn’t get the “Blessing” that night, but many of my friends did. I walked up to one friend, a worship leader from our church, who was running frantically on the spot and flapping his hands. I asked him what he thought was happening and how he felt. He had no explanation, only a smile, and he couldn’t stop the running or hand flapping.
 
I attended several Toronto meetings. Although the leaders would often say that the manifestations where not what it was all about, that’s what they mostly talked about and they held them up as the proof of God’s moving in our midst. It was obvious that the manifestations were the big drawing card. After an extended time of worship, there would be a testimony time in which the leader would interview people up front about what they felt God was doing within them.
 
Manifestations often started during worship, but became very pronounced during testimony time, and the leaders would go with “whatever God was doing in our midst” and allow almost anything to happen. Often there was no time left for preaching. But that was never an issue, because we were not going up to hear the Word. Soon, the thing was to double over making gasping or mooing noises. From that time on, there was a lot of “mmmooooooing”, “wwhhooooing” and “ooooooing” in Vineyard meetings.
 
One Vineyard service I remember at a church north of Toronto was very typical. It was more like a drunken party than a church service. The chairs had been cleared away so that the middle was open. The congregation stood around and danced to loud rock “worship” music. Many at the front were falling over each other. As they touched each other, they would get “blessed” and double over, collapsing in a heap, arm in arm. Communion was served as a women danced through the crowd with a tray serving glasses of grape juice to other dancers on the floor. We were there until after 10:30 at night, and still the worship and dancing continued and no one preached. I stood in the back, not dancing.
 
At this time, and for several years, I was decidedly pro-Toronto Blessing, as the renewal came to be known. I didn’t understand what was going on, but decided that if that’s how God wanted to move, then that was fine by me. Who was I to question God? It never occurred to me to open my Bible and test what was going on against the Word. The mystical education I received in the Walk set me up perfectly to accept the Toronto Blessing without question.
 
I had been taught in the Walk to accept that God could do things that did not line up with the written Word. Now, in the Vineyard we had Prophets who were getting a steady stream of messages from God who could interpret what was going on for us, even though we did not know what the Bible taught on such matters.
 
So I went with it, and criticized the critics for being closed to what the Spirit was doing. I considered that those “old order Pharisees” just couldn’t handle it when God wanted to do something fresh in another group like ours. They just didn’t understand what God was doing in our midst. If they’d just open up their hearts to the Spirit, then they would understand that this was really God. But they couldn’t do that because they were “religious” and narrow minded. This pretty much summed up my attitude and the prevalent attitude of the pro-Toronto crowd.[11]
 
In the Walk we were used to accusations from other church groups of being a cult, and we all learned how to deal with that without letting it get to us. Didn’t Ishmael always persecute the true Isaac? Didn’t the old order always misunderstand the new thing God does? Were not the true prophets persecuted? So when other Christian groups began to question the Toronto Blessing and raise many serious and legitimate theological concerns, I already had the necessary psychological defenses in place to dismiss them out of hand - without ever stopping to think for even a moment that they just may have a point!
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 01:08:13 by KNOWLEDGE BOMB »

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #23 on: Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 00:52:51 »
Isn't vineyard churches into slain in the spirit - holy laughter?
(toronto blessing). 

RUN don't walk......

Do they teach revival? As in bringing in the kingdom

Vineyard churches are into Jesus Christ and the fullness of the Spirit in the Christian's life.

The Vineyard is a great denomination!

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #24 on: Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 01:35:41 »
Isn't vineyard churches into slain in the spirit - holy laughter?
(toronto blessing). 

RUN don't walk......

Do they teach revival? As in bringing in the kingdom

Vineyard churches are into Jesus Christ and the fullness of the Spirit in the Christian's life.

The Vineyard is a great denomination!


They are ALSO into demonic holy laughter and slain in the spirit.... Neither is backed up by scripture and infact they use scripture incorrectly to back their claim that it is from God and it is NOT!

Again RUN don't walk....

Lively Stone

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #25 on: Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 02:12:15 »
Isn't vineyard churches into slain in the spirit - holy laughter?
(toronto blessing). 

RUN don't walk......

Do they teach revival? As in bringing in the kingdom

Vineyard churches are into Jesus Christ and the fullness of the Spirit in the Christian's life.

The Vineyard is a great denomination!


They are ALSO into demonic holy laughter and slain in the spirit.... Neither is backed up by scripture and infact they use scripture incorrectly to back their claim that it is from God and it is NOT!

Again RUN don't walk....

You are obviously unaware of how Holy Spirit manifests in His people. It is fear and ignorance of something that declares something of the devil. Vineyard is not into anything that is demonic.

Vineyard is one of the good ones.

Lively Stone

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #26 on: Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 02:15:46 »
Before anyone gets on the accusatory rampages that come out of these kinds of threads, read over the Vineyard statement of faith.

Here:

http://www.vineyardusa.org/site/files/about/Vineyard%20USA%20Statement%20of%20Faith.pdf


Offline chosenone

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #27 on: Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 02:44:10 »
The vineyard church that I went for 2 years was totally biblically based. The pastor who was a lovely guy, said that nothing would be allowed to happen that wasnt in the Bible, and of course, that includes the gifts and manifestastions of the Holy Spirit, such as tongues, propehecies, prayer for healing etc.. ALL 100% Biblical. If I had a vineyard near me I would definately go again.

Lively Stone

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #28 on: Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 04:24:58 »
The vineyard church that I went for 2 years was totally biblically based. The pastor who was a lovely guy, said that nothing would be allowed to happen that wasnt in the Bible, and of course, that includes the gifts and manifestastions of the Holy Spirit, such as tongues, propehecies, prayer for healing etc.. ALL 100% Biblical. If I had a vineyard near me I would definately go again.

Same here, sister. If there was a Vineyard church here in my city, I would be there now.

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #29 on: Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 08:39:33 »
Lively stone... Again you teach things you do not know or understand... So let's see what it is you know... 

Holy laughter or drunk in the spirit is in vineyard churches so what in the bible backs that up?

Bet you have no idea... Also it's completely foolish to think you can read a statement of faith and find out if their true to the word.....


Let me ask you another question, what do you think of:

Joel olsteen or Billy Graham?



I do know how the holy spirit works but your type accepts it just like the letter I posted by feelings.... You teach others thing you yourself don't know about - statement of faith lol

Offline chosenone

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #30 on: Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 09:04:43 »
Lively stone... Again you teach things you do not know or understand... So let's see what it is you know... 

Holy laughter or drunk in the spirit is in vineyard churches so what in the bible backs that up?

Bet you have no idea... Also it's completely foolish to think you can read a statement of faith and find out if their true to the word.....


Let me ask you another question, what do you think of:

Joel olsteen or Billy Graham?



I do know how the holy spirit works but your type accepts it just like the letter I posted by feelings.... You teach others thing you yourself don't know about - statement of faith lol
 

Do not get drunk with wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit, is what we are told.

People thought that the disciples were drunk when they were filled with the spirit. They werent of course but they were clearly acting as if they were.

 The vineyard churches are charismatic, and they follow the Bibles teaching on the gifts of the spirit.
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 09:06:42 by chosenone »

Offline Willie T

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #31 on: Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 09:08:57 »
As usual, KB, your foolish posts are nearly as silly as your signature.

Ever set foot inside a Vineyard Church?  No, I didn't think so.

Before I found a Vineyard, I was much as you.  I even told my wife we should stay away from that place...... where neither of us had ever been.  But a few weeks of Bible study and assembly with that fantastically-on-fire-for-Jesus group quickly began to show me that I had probably never been to a church that functioned as Jesus intended it to be.

I was appalled at how much of Jesus I had been missing for 35 years by simply "attending" what I mistook for the true CHURCH Jesus instituted.

I suspect you will never know the true expression of that freedom, but I will still pray for you to be led of God to something similar.

Offline Willie T

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #32 on: Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 09:13:54 »
It's so plain, ChosenOne, yet we fear God's working so much that we stay in the safe little cocoons we've woven for ourselves.

Lively Stone

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #33 on: Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 11:33:17 »
Lively stone... Again you teach things you do not know or understand... So let's see what it is you know... 

That's awfully presumptuous of you...and false.

Quote
Holy laughter or drunk in the spirit is in vineyard churches so what in the bible backs that up?

It happens all over the world to Spirit-filled believers. In scripture people who are overcome with the presence of God would fall.

Quote
Bet you have no idea... Also it's completely foolish to think you can read a statement of faith and find out if their true to the word.....

I have been to the Vineyard. They were true to the word. Many churches aren't.

Quote
Let me ask you another question, what do you think of:

Joel olsteen or Billy Graham?

Love them in the Lord. That is no measure of anything sinister as you would love to think. These men present no reason for you to test anyone.

Quote
I do know how the holy spirit works but your type accepts it just like the letter I posted by feelings.... You teach others thing you yourself don't know about - statement of faith lol

My 'type', eh?

Don't even try to go there, Bubba.

Offline Willie T

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Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
« Reply #34 on: Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 11:56:45 »
Yeah, KB, it's a pecular "type" Lively Stones is.  She's a lot like me.  BTW, it's called "Christian".