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Christian Interests => Organized Religion and Religious Movements Discussions => Topic started by: Lily76 on Sun Jul 15, 2012 - 19:58:25

Title: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lily76 on Sun Jul 15, 2012 - 19:58:25

Ok I was discussing with few people joining a Vineyard church. And, Carey did not want me to mess up the music thread lol. So I will post this here.

Well there are few reasons why I wanted to try a new church, but I do not think it is important to mention them here.

I joined an evangelical church (low Anglican Church) when I became a Christian just few years ago  ::blushing:: I really had no idea about different churches. That was where my husband and his family go and I just joined them. I think they are good and kind people, but I really feel isolated, and I would love to be in a church where I can do some activities with people in my age so it does not feel like it is a duty for me to go to a church anymore.
 
I heard about Vineyard Churches from Chosenone, and I think I will love to join this church or something similar. I’m an Artist and my husband is a musician. I always thought those churches where people sing and play music are rare, but I was very surprised to find many of them here where I live. (Still need to find a good one in Québec as well.)

They gave me some documents to read (44 pages!) I have to answer some questions about what attracts me to be here and why would I want to join ect…. and then I have to agree on the statement of faith (I have no problem with it) and it sounds like I have to follow some rules and sign it and send it back to them. I never did something like this to be a member of the Anglican Evangelical church and my husband joined 2 churches and he never had to sign a contract or papers. I always thought I can just go to any informal church and be part of it, no? Is this usual? It looks like they do a lot of godly activities and they want everyone to be doing something which is good. But, I just never did something like this before. This is gonna be my second church so I have no clue if this is ok or wrong to make people sign on something?

I just visited the church today.

It is located at the Lutheran School in Chicago.

The church looks awesome. Lots of them are students so that is just perfect for me :)

Those what I got to read and sign: http://storage.cloversites.com/hydeparkvineyardchurch/documents/Vineyard%20Essentials.pdf (http://storage.cloversites.com/hydeparkvineyardchurch/documents/Vineyard%20Essentials.pdf)

Partnership Commitment
I have considered this commitment prayerfully, and in order to help accomplish the mission of
the Hyde Park Vineyard Church, I commit myself to the following:
1. I commit to staying in touch with Jesus.  I have been born again by God's Spirit (John 3:3)
and am committed to continued spiritual growth.  I have been baptized.
2. I commit to Hyde Park Vineyard Church's purposes and priorities.
3. I commit to attend Vineyard Sunday Morning and a weekly small group (If you are
committed to a small group with another organization, this may count for your small group
accountability and support).
Which small group? _______________________
4. I commit to substantial and regular financial giving to God for the support of the work of
Hyde Park Vineyard Church.
5. I commit to being a minister and being part of at least one ministry here at the Vineyard. 
Which area of service? ______________________________________
6. I commit to follow the leadership set by the pastors and Church Board of the Vineyard.
7. I commit to Hyde Park Vineyard Church's statement of faith.
Name: _____________________________________
Signature: _____________________________________
Date: _____________________________________


Here is the site: Hyde Park Vineyard Church:  http://www.thevc.org/#/welcome (http://www.thevc.org/#/welcome)

They got a youtube video

Hyde Park Vineyard Church (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s58xblzhUxE#ws)

.....
....

This looks like a good Vineyard church, there are many others in Chicago, but this one looks very Alive to me.

Thank you,
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lily76 on Sun Jul 15, 2012 - 20:18:50

Quote
I see! Thank you, Carey!

This is something some churches do in a way of garnering committed adherents. It is a partnership agreement where people are encouraged to consider making that local body their home church, in lieu of membership. There are many churches today that struggle with a transient congregation. This gives the leadership a demonstrable indication of how committed their people are, and who they can count on for committed ministry and support of the work there. What with the often-seen pattern of people coming and going and church hopping, it is a pretty good aid in causing people to really contemplate putting roots down and allowing God to use them where he has led them.


sorry Lively Stone. I posted this before I see your post in the other thread :(

So you think this is acceptable? I personally have no problem with it. I just want to make sure it is not morally wrong to do this in a church.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: larry2 on Sun Jul 15, 2012 - 20:48:29

Quote
I see! Thank you, Carey!

This is something some churches do in a way of garnering committed adherents. It is a partnership agreement where people are encouraged to consider making that local body their home church, in lieu of membership. There are many churches today that struggle with a transient congregation. This gives the leadership a demonstrable indication of how committed their people are, and who they can count on for committed ministry and support of the work there. What with the often-seen pattern of people coming and going and church hopping, it is a pretty good aid in causing people to really contemplate putting roots down and allowing God to use them where he has led them.


sorry Lively Stone. I posted this before I see your post in the other thread :(

So you think this is acceptable? I personally have no problem with it. I just want to make sure it is not morally wrong to do this in a church.


1 Corinthians 1:12  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:4  For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
 
Do you really want to be of Vineyard?
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Carey on Sun Jul 15, 2012 - 21:08:17
And, Carey did not want me to mess up the music thread lol. So I will post this here.

 ::doh::

 ::pondering::

Yeah cause Carey done enough posting OT in that thread already.  ::whistle::

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just to make this post more topical, I do find the term "substantial" in clause #4 distasteful.   I guess it keeps out the riffraff.  ::frown::

Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lily76 on Sun Jul 15, 2012 - 21:17:47

Quote
I see! Thank you, Carey!

This is something some churches do in a way of garnering committed adherents. It is a partnership agreement where people are encouraged to consider making that local body their home church, in lieu of membership. There are many churches today that struggle with a transient congregation. This gives the leadership a demonstrable indication of how committed their people are, and who they can count on for committed ministry and support of the work there. What with the often-seen pattern of people coming and going and church hopping, it is a pretty good aid in causing people to really contemplate putting roots down and allowing God to use them where he has led them.


sorry Lively Stone. I posted this before I see your post in the other thread :(

So you think this is acceptable? I personally have no problem with it. I just want to make sure it is not morally wrong to do this in a church.


1 Corinthians 1:12  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:4  For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
 
Do you really want to be of Vineyard?

Well I really love music and I want to be with students or at least with a little young people.

That church is located at the school so I'm sure I'll enjoy being one of them :(

It is not wrong to be at a different church, right?
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lily76 on Sun Jul 15, 2012 - 21:27:25
And, Carey did not want me to mess up the music thread lol. So I will post this here.

 ::doh::

 ::pondering::

Yeah cause Carey done enough posting OT in that thread already.  ::whistle::

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just to make this post more topical, I do find the term "substantial" in clause #4 distasteful.   I guess it keeps out the riffraff.  ::frown::

Well. If my money spread the word of God, then I have no problem with it. I have a job and I run a business so it will not affect me personally.

But yeah it also stopped me to think a little because that is also something i did not do at my church. I dunno if this is wrong or not?
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Sun Jul 15, 2012 - 22:48:43

Quote
I see! Thank you, Carey!

This is something some churches do in a way of garnering committed adherents. It is a partnership agreement where people are encouraged to consider making that local body their home church, in lieu of membership. There are many churches today that struggle with a transient congregation. This gives the leadership a demonstrable indication of how committed their people are, and who they can count on for committed ministry and support of the work there. What with the often-seen pattern of people coming and going and church hopping, it is a pretty good aid in causing people to really contemplate putting roots down and allowing God to use them where he has led them.


sorry Lively Stone. I posted this before I see your post in the other thread :(

So you think this is acceptable? I personally have no problem with it. I just want to make sure it is not morally wrong to do this in a church.

After we left our former church (where I was a member for decades and grew up there), it changed and in the last decade has plummeted in membership---but when the new leadership moved in, the partnership commitment was offered and many people left because of it, as the existing members were pretty much forced to sign. since I learned of it, I have come to see it is not bad or immoral, but no one should be coerced into signing. Wasn't it given to you as a part of a visitor's packet? I shouldn't think you would be expected to sign anything before you have had a proper amount of time to gauge whether this is a good fit for you.  I certainly do question any church that accepts anyone off the street to enter into ministry without getting to know people and allowing the people to know them, and not before leadership can assess for fruit in their lives---and I wouldn't condone a church suggesting to any newcomer to commit to financial support unless they were actually considering staying. So, on the whole, not a bad thing, but I would never let a newcomer take on the challenge of this questionnaire. It is far too premature, especially for a Vineyard church, which caters to the transient and seekers.

I think that as you have this questionnaire in your hands, you can take the time to look at it, but if I were you, I wouldn't fill it out for SEVERAL weeks or even months.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lily76 on Mon Jul 16, 2012 - 00:09:25

Quote
I see! Thank you, Carey!

This is something some churches do in a way of garnering committed adherents. It is a partnership agreement where people are encouraged to consider making that local body their home church, in lieu of membership. There are many churches today that struggle with a transient congregation. This gives the leadership a demonstrable indication of how committed their people are, and who they can count on for committed ministry and support of the work there. What with the often-seen pattern of people coming and going and church hopping, it is a pretty good aid in causing people to really contemplate putting roots down and allowing God to use them where he has led them.


sorry Lively Stone. I posted this before I see your post in the other thread :(

So you think this is acceptable? I personally have no problem with it. I just want to make sure it is not morally wrong to do this in a church.

After we left our former church (where I was a member for decades and grew up there), it changed and in the last decade has plummeted in membership---but when the new leadership moved in, the partnership commitment was offered and many people left because of it, as the existing members were pretty much forced to sign. since I learned of it, I have come to see it is not bad or immoral, but no one should be coerced into signing. Wasn't it given to you as a part of a visitor's packet? I shouldn't think you would be expected to sign anything before you have had a proper amount of time to gauge whether this is a good fit for you.  I certainly do question any church that accepts anyone off the street to enter into ministry without getting to know people and allowing the people to know them, and not before leadership can assess for fruit in their lives---and I wouldn't condone a church suggesting to any newcomer to commit to financial support unless they were actually considering staying. So, on the whole, not a bad thing, but I would never let a newcomer take on the challenge of this questionnaire. It is far too premature, especially for a Vineyard church, which caters to the transient and seekers.

I think that as you have this questionnaire in your hands, you can take the time to look at it, but if I were you, I wouldn't fill it out for SEVERAL weeks or even months.

Yeah, I just met this lady and she gave me tons of papers to read lol. This application was with other papers she handed to me.

she did not say I have to sign something. she just said read them if I remember correctly. I filled them anyways in case they ask me for it.

Maybe, I can ask them if I can give them this after few months. After all nobody gets to know a place or church on the first visit and deciedes something.

Thank you
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: kensington on Mon Jul 16, 2012 - 01:32:33
What I know of Vineyard churches would fit in the palm of my hand... but what I do know, I'll share. We have one close to where we live. It popped up one day.  I wondered why since there was at least 4 great churches in the immediate area. 

Then I spoke to two close friends I have known since before I got saved, both married to pastors now. Vineyard people came into their church services, got to know some of the people in the congregation, and talked them into leaving and going to new church popping up. I was concerned about such a thing being true, so I checked... they did it to all of the churches around here. Wooed their membership away.  I find the practice to be underhanded. Shameful.

The Church families they wooed people from were good hard working churches....  I would not attend one. My husband has asked me a few time if I wanted to visit there and check it out.... my reply is "NO.. not even tempted".

Maybe that is why they want contracts right away with you...  they sneak you away from your church famiy, and hurry you to sigh a covenant with them so they can keep you attending, paying tieths to them, building them faster. They want you bound to them.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Mon Jul 16, 2012 - 01:39:26
What I know of Vineyard churches would fit in the palm of my hand... but what I do know, I'll share. We have one close to where we live. It popped up one day.  I wondered why since there was at least 4 great churches in the immediate area. 

Then I spoke to two close friends I have known since before I got saved, both married to pastors now. Vineyard people came into their church services, got to know some of the people in the congregation, and talked them into leaving and going to new church popping up. I was concerned about such a thing being true, so I checked... they did it to all of the churches around here. Wooed their membership away.  I find the practice to be underhanded. Shameful.

The Church families they wooed people from were good hard working churches....  I would not attend one. My husband has asked me a few time if I wanted to visit there and check it out.... my reply is "NO.. not even tempted".

Maybe that is why they want contracts right away with you...  they sneak you away from your church famiy, and hurry you to sigh a covenant with them so they can keep you attending, paying tieths to them, building them faster. They want you bound to them.

Wow, that is dishonourable behaviour! I wouldn't set foot in a church that did that, either. But let it be known, that such behaviour is not something that the Vineyard would condone---at all. Obviously it was a few underhanded, and spiritually misguided people who tried to steal sheep from other folds. Some people have far more zeal than they have brains!

I know it would be a hard thing  not to lump all of the Vineyard  churches together, but believe me, it is a wonderfully spiritually free denomination.

I think the only thing that Lily can do is to take things slow and build some rapport with people there, and let God take it from there.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: chosenone on Mon Jul 16, 2012 - 02:07:47
What I know of Vineyard churches would fit in the palm of my hand... but what I do know, I'll share. We have one close to where we live. It popped up one day.  I wondered why since there was at least 4 great churches in the immediate area. 

Then I spoke to two close friends I have known since before I got saved, both married to pastors now. Vineyard people came into their church services, got to know some of the people in the congregation, and talked them into leaving and going to new church popping up. I was concerned about such a thing being true, so I checked... they did it to all of the churches around here. Wooed their membership away.  I find the practice to be underhanded. Shameful.

The Church families they wooed people from were good hard working churches....  I would not attend one. My husband has asked me a few time if I wanted to visit there and check it out.... my reply is "NO.. not even tempted".

Maybe that is why they want contracts right away with you...  they sneak you away from your church famiy, and hurry you to sigh a covenant with them so they can keep you attending, paying tieths to them, building them faster. They want you bound to them.


 Thats not my experience at all. The vineyard church that I went to was totally the opposite, lovely, relaxed and wasnt at all worried about where you went as long as you knew Jesus.The welcomed anyone but didnt even have a need to make you members because as the pastor said quiet righty, if you are a believer you are a member of Gods church anyway. There was no need to be bound in anyway.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: chosenone on Mon Jul 16, 2012 - 02:16:49

Quote
I see! Thank you, Carey!

This is something some churches do in a way of garnering committed adherents. It is a partnership agreement where people are encouraged to consider making that local body their home church, in lieu of membership. There are many churches today that struggle with a transient congregation. This gives the leadership a demonstrable indication of how committed their people are, and who they can count on for committed ministry and support of the work there. What with the often-seen pattern of people coming and going and church hopping, it is a pretty good aid in causing people to really contemplate putting roots down and allowing God to use them where he has led them.


sorry Lively Stone. I posted this before I see your post in the other thread :(

So you think this is acceptable? I personally have no problem with it. I just want to make sure it is not morally wrong to do this in a church.

  Personally I would not want to sign anything like this when I am just visiting with a view to seeing if it is the church that I want to go to. The vineyard church that I went to here in the UK had no such thing. IN fact the pastor didnt even have a membership,and said that if we are believers we are all members of Christs church. He also never had a collection and just a box at the back of the church if anyone wanted to give financially.So it sounds very different from that one. I suspect that each fellowship decides what they do and how they do it, but if I were you I would say that you are visting to see if you fit in and dont sign anything until you are sure that it is where you want to stay. Even then read it carefully and be wary of signing. I dont believe that we need to sign a form or become members of a church to be part of that church.

I agree with LS in that it was probably just in a  load of papers that you got given to read and look at when you fisrt go, and I am sure that they do not expect you to fill it in or give it back for some time. I am also sure that they wont ask for it. If/when you have been for ages, and feel that you want to sign it then do so, but dont rush.
I am so glad that you like the look of the church and the fact that there are many young people like yourself. Let us know how you get on.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: DaveW on Mon Jul 16, 2012 - 13:36:27
I would not join any congregation until I had attended there at least 6 months if not a year just to see how it goes.  Most congregations would not accept an application for membership before then either.

I do find them asking you to sign a bunch of paperwork after your first visit to be disturbing.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lily76 on Mon Jul 16, 2012 - 18:06:12

Quote
Vineyard people came into their church services, got to know some of the people in the congregation, and talked them into leaving and going to new church popping up. I was concerned about such a thing being true, so I checked... they did it to all of the churches around here. Wooed their membership away.  I find the practice to be underhanded. Shameful.


That is very disgraceful.

Yes, kensington that is not a Christian behavior.

We do not want to challenge other churches. We are all part of Christ invisible church. They have this on their site:

“Vineyard is to produce world changers and world changing churches who are 100% devoted to Jesus and each other and others in the world.” Almost all of those who helped start the church have moved to new cities, started new careers, and joined new churches, but the fruitfulness of God’s ministry through this church continues to multiply through both the lives of our alumni and our current members.”

But, well I’ll not sign anything until few months. That sounds like what you guys will do. So I think it is the right thing to do because I have no experience and that is why I’m here to ask about this.

Also, I do not want to judge them. Maybe they won't bother asking me about a contract or anything else.


Quote
I agree with LS in that it was probably just in a  load of papers that you got given to read and look at when you fisrt go, and I am sure that they do not expect you to fill it in or give it back for some time. I am also sure that they wont ask for it. If/when you have been for ages, and feel that you want to sign it then do so, but dont rush.
I am so glad that you like the look of the church and the fact that there are many young people like yourself. Let us know how you get on.

Yes chosen, I got this application with other many papers so I’m not sure if they will ask about them soon. If they ask, I’ll just tell them I’m not ready yet. I do not think they will kick me out if I do not sign lol, but I’ll tell you if they ask me about this contract soon. Thanks everyone :)
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: DaveW on Tue Jul 17, 2012 - 08:24:25
Wise choice Lilly.  If there are other Vinyards within driving distance you may want to visit them as well.

And pray a lot for guidance. 

Back in 2002 DW and I were looking for a new congregation when the one we had joined left the network we wanted to be part of. There were 4 other affiliated congregations in the DC Metro area and we took at least 6 months of visiting here one week, there the next week before we decided which to be part of.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lily76 on Tue Jul 17, 2012 - 19:58:01
Wise choice Lilly.  If there are other Vinyards within driving distance you may want to visit them as well.

And pray a lot for guidance. 

Back in 2002 DW and I were looking for a new congregation when the one we had joined left the network we wanted to be part of. There were 4 other affiliated congregations in the DC Metro area and we took at least 6 months of visiting here one week, there the next week before we decided which to be part of.

There are few others I found that are just like 15min away from me. I'd love to go to the other Vineyard church I phoned. I think they expected me to come last week but I went to this one lol. There is another Vineyard church, but it says "baptist church" on thier building. I'd love to visit them, too.

The Hyde Park Vineyard Church looks very informal to me. I guess most of them are students majoring in theology. I felt somehow like sitting in a classroom lol but well I will get used to it.

thanks!
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Willie T on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 17:42:23
Lilly,
It doesn't sound like you understand the Vineyard Organization.  This is not meant to sound negative, but it is important that you fully grasp the initial intentions of the Vineyard Movement.

You are not looking at a typical American church.  Vineyards are not local church groups designed to settle-in and be "the church over on 30th street".  Vineyards are church planting mechanisms.  The preacher may move on.  Members may sometimes be asked to move with him, if it is reasonable.  It is a dynamic movement with the overall goal of seeing 10,000 churches "planted".  Yes, that's a specific number the originator of the church movement, John Wimber, was given in a vision back in the early 70's.

That questionnaire you have reflects commitments that will fall in step with that goal.  There aren't many passive "pew sitters" in a Vineyard Church.  Not a one of those comments is just a casual churchy-sounding set of simple statements that you can expect to ignore.

It will behoove you to do more digging than you seem to have done.  Joining a Vineyard is not too much different than the kind of daunting commitment the disciples made when they picked up, leaving everything behind, to follow Jesus.

You will find yourself heavily immersed in ministry to the poor and often dirty.  Vineyards welcome addicts, hookers, and ex-cons.  This can sometimes be a bit of a cultural shock to some middle class people.

Truly, I suggest you sit down with their preacher and elders, and find out for sure just what you are signing up for.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: DaveW on Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 05:14:29
  It is a dynamic movement with the overall goal of seeing 10,000 churches "planted".  Yes, that's a specific number the originator of the church movement, John Wimber, was given in a vision back in the early 70's.
Wimber did not start the Vineyards. He was brought in in the late 70s by Ken Gullikson who did not want to lead a movement or denomination; just a local congregation. I remember reading about Wimbur taking the lead position and that was a few years after the Vineyards started.

I was familiar with Wimbur BEFORE the Vineyards and setting a goal like that sounds right in line with him.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: chosenone on Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 06:59:11
Lilly,
It doesn't sound like you understand the Vineyard Organization.  This is not meant to sound negative, but it is important that you fully grasp the initial intentions of the Vineyard Movement.

You are not looking at a typical American church.  Vineyards are not local church groups designed to settle-in and be "the church over on 30th street".  Vineyards are church planting mechanisms.  The preacher may move on.  Members may sometimes be asked to move with him, if it is reasonable.  It is a dynamic movement with the overall goal of seeing 10,000 churches "planted".  Yes, that's a specific number the originator of the church movement, John Wimber, was given in a vision back in the early 70's.

That questionnaire you have reflects commitments that will fall in step with that goal.  There aren't many passive "pew sitters" in a Vineyard Church.  Not a one of those comments is just a casual churchy-sounding set of simple statements that you can expect to ignore.

It will behoove you to do more digging than you seem to have done.  Joining a Vineyard is not too much different than the kind of daunting commitment the disciples made when they picked up, leaving everything behind, to follow Jesus.

You will find yourself heavily immersed in ministry to the poor and often dirty.  Vineyards welcome addicts, hookers, and ex-cons.  This can sometimes be a bit of a cultural shock to some middle class people.

Truly, I suggest you sit down with their preacher and elders, and find out for sure just what you are signing up for.

 

The thing is that all vineyard churches are different, depending on where they are and who leads them.. The one that I went to here in the Uk is not that different from the other churches around except just much more informal and relaxed. A normal church with normal people, who dont like the formality of the more mainstream churches.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: DaveW on Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 07:22:41
You will find yourself heavily immersed in ministry to the poor and often dirty.  Vineyards welcome addicts, hookers, and ex-cons.  This can sometimes be a bit of a cultural shock to some middle class people.
You make it sound like that is a bad thing.

Are those not the VERY people Our Lord calls us to reach?
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: chosenone on Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 07:37:00
You will find yourself heavily immersed in ministry to the poor and often dirty.  Vineyards welcome addicts, hookers, and ex-cons.  This can sometimes be a bit of a cultural shock to some middle class people.
You make it sound like that is a bad thing.

Are those not the VERY people Our Lord calls us to reach?
  Good point Dave. I guess if you have a church in a rough area, you will have more of the people that Willie described, but it does depend on where the church is.   
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Willie T on Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 08:50:19
You will find yourself heavily immersed in ministry to the poor and often dirty.  Vineyards welcome addicts, hookers, and ex-cons.  This can sometimes be a bit of a cultural shock to some middle class people.
You make it sound like that is a bad thing.

Are those not the VERY people Our Lord calls us to reach?
THAT's exactly my point.  I choose to tell it like it is - or should be - the same way Jesus did.  Never did He invite people to join up with his group because they were friendly people, or that they had a good time, or that they had a relaxed dress code and played cool music.

Things like that are what most (many) churches stress when talking with people..... and people looking for that are usually what they attract.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 00:45:53
Isn't vineyard churches into slain in the spirit - holy laughter?
(toronto blessing). 

RUN don't walk......

Do they teach revival? As in bringing in the kingdom
do they teach: word of knowledge or revelation knowledge


RUN don't walk


from: deception in the church:

The Vineyard
 
I left the Walk and joined the Vineyard movement in the late 80’s. The Vineyard is a Charismatic church growth movement characterized by a casual, relaxed atmosphere and an upbeat, modern style of worship music. The Vineyard is at the forefront of a much larger Charismatic revival, lead by the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship (TACF)[9], Peter Wagner, Rick Joyner and the new wave of prophets and apostles rising to prominence. The first thing I noticed about the Vineyard was its music and laid-back preaching style. The music was great and the worship went on for extended periods, the dress was casual and it had a coffee bar at the back. I was to remain in the Vineyard for the next 9 years.
 
I soon discovered there was a reason for the laid back preaching style in the Vineyard: The Vineyard was very laid-back about what it believed. In contrast to the Walk, the Vineyard was very wishy-washy about what it believed and adopted an easy-going approach to the truth. There was lots of warm and fuzzy preaching on God’s love, personal fulfillment, setting and reaching goals, and dreaming big dreams for life. I used to be in sales in the business world, and recognized most of it as repackaged business management-speak and sales motivational teaching that had more to do with Norman Vincent Peal than the Bible.
 
The Vineyard was very pragmatic in its approach to church growth. We were often developing new ways to reach the community through various out-reach programs, such as door-to-door food give-aways, free barbeques, or pop give-aways on street corners. These things are not wrong in themselves, of course, but for all our good works, there was little Gospel content in what we did. We put a lot of thought into how to reach the community, but little consideration into the content of the message we were reaching them with. Most of our growth came from attracting existing Christians to our church with our popular music and coffee-club atmosphere. 
 
The Vineyard also took a pragmatic approach to truth: whatever worked was OK. What Bible teaching there was usually came in the form of “keys” or “steps” to reaching some personal or group goal, such as realizing your full potential. Lots of teaching centered on the mechanics of various “how-to” methodologies, such as ‘how-to journal’ as a method to hear God. How-to pray for the sick. How-to reach the community. How-to minister and receive inner-healing. How-to discover your spiritual ‘gift mix’. How-to interpret dreams, and so on.
 
Often, preaching was little more than subjective ramblings about what the speaker “felt” God was currently saying or doing. And always about how much God loved us and how some wonderful new thing was on the horizon. Always couched in very spiritual terms, but it was typically the leader’s opinions of what God was saying at the moment and seldom was there much, if any, Biblical exposition.
 
In one such very typical service, the entire teaching consisted of gleanings from a secular book on business success that had been written by a Mormon. In another very typical service I recall, the sermon consisted of jokes the Pastor read from a Christian joke book. The only occasions that I can recall in which the pastor actually expounded on the Bible at any length (apart from cherry-picking the occasional, isolated proof text), was when the church started running into the red, and a sermon on tithing was dusted off.
 
Night of the Living Dead
 
Even before the ‘Blessing’ hit the Toronto Airport Vineyard in 1994 we were seeing bizarre manifestations in the Vineyard. In the early 90’s, just before 1994 when the ‘laughing revival’ broke out, there was a Vineyard conference in Kitchener that I still think of as “the night of the living dead”. In this conference, when the altar call was given, a large crowd lurched to the front, probably half the auditorium, and started dancing, twisting, gyrating, and hopping at the front as a “blessing” was prayed over them. Vast numbers of people lurched, crawled, staggered and limped around like a mass of grotesque horror flick zombie’s. The room was filled with all manner of freakish, bizarre and even obscene behavior. One girl was on her back in front of the stage, making orgasmic, thrashing and gyrating motions that could only be described as sexual activity.
 
The Vineyard leaders accepted all this as the moving of the Spirit. The prevailing attitude of the leadership and members was that this was God moving. According to standard Vineyard thinking, the Holy Spirit can do a deep inner work without the mind being informed or knowing what is going on, or without any further knowledge of truth. It was generally acknowledged that some of the bizarre behavior may be demonic in origin, but most of it was the work of the Holy Spirit or the human response to the power of the Holy Spirit at work within. It was believed that the Spirit often worked best and deepest if it could bypass the intellect, and there was no need for the mind to be informed. So we weren’t too concerned because we believed that God was doing a deeper work in them and we simply prayed that God would bless them even more.
 
The “Blessing” Comes to Toronto
 
In the Vineyard, adhering to true doctrine was not as important as just being open to whatever the ‘spirit’ wanted to do. For any leader, it was more important to be lead by the spirit, and as long as a ministry seemed to move in that, and could get results (make “stuff” happen, which in our circles meant healings and manifestations) h/she was assumed to be a man or woman of God regardless of the content of their teaching. Whatever they said was accepted as a message from God.
 
As a result of this mindset, a speaker could say almost anything from a Vineyard pulpit as long as they came packaged with the right charismatic personality and spiritual gifts. In the Vineyard, one of the gravest sins that could be committed was to get too firm on beliefs, since that was considered unloving and divisive. Since questioning a teaching was perceived to be divisive and critical, we seldom ever seriously questioned what was taught or took seriously the Biblical warning to test all teachings and prophetic “words”.
 
Discernment devolved to the level of feelings, intuitive insight and subjective impressions in which no one could know anything for sure, but certain people (usually the ‘prophetic’ types in our midst) were generally trusted to have the right discernment on issues. This attitude fostered a lack of real discernment among Vineyard leaders which opened the doors wide to a large influx of false teachers and false prophets in the early Nineties. I believe it was this lack of discernment, largely due to Biblical illiteracy, that paved the way for the arrival of the Toronto “Blessing” in 1994.
 
Early in January of 1994, I heard that revival[10] had broken out in the Toronto Vineyard and we went up to check it out. Our Vineyard was within an hours drive. Many friends from our Vineyard church also went up that night. We entered the meeting room and I was stunned by the bizarre scene that opened up before us. It was pandemonium everywhere. The large room was crowded with people shaking, bobbing, running on the spot and flapping their arms.
 
I didn’t get the “Blessing” that night, but many of my friends did. I walked up to one friend, a worship leader from our church, who was running frantically on the spot and flapping his hands. I asked him what he thought was happening and how he felt. He had no explanation, only a smile, and he couldn’t stop the running or hand flapping.
 
I attended several Toronto meetings. Although the leaders would often say that the manifestations where not what it was all about, that’s what they mostly talked about and they held them up as the proof of God’s moving in our midst. It was obvious that the manifestations were the big drawing card. After an extended time of worship, there would be a testimony time in which the leader would interview people up front about what they felt God was doing within them.
 
Manifestations often started during worship, but became very pronounced during testimony time, and the leaders would go with “whatever God was doing in our midst” and allow almost anything to happen. Often there was no time left for preaching. But that was never an issue, because we were not going up to hear the Word. Soon, the thing was to double over making gasping or mooing noises. From that time on, there was a lot of “mmmooooooing”, “wwhhooooing” and “ooooooing” in Vineyard meetings.
 
One Vineyard service I remember at a church north of Toronto was very typical. It was more like a drunken party than a church service. The chairs had been cleared away so that the middle was open. The congregation stood around and danced to loud rock “worship” music. Many at the front were falling over each other. As they touched each other, they would get “blessed” and double over, collapsing in a heap, arm in arm. Communion was served as a women danced through the crowd with a tray serving glasses of grape juice to other dancers on the floor. We were there until after 10:30 at night, and still the worship and dancing continued and no one preached. I stood in the back, not dancing.
 
At this time, and for several years, I was decidedly pro-Toronto Blessing, as the renewal came to be known. I didn’t understand what was going on, but decided that if that’s how God wanted to move, then that was fine by me. Who was I to question God? It never occurred to me to open my Bible and test what was going on against the Word. The mystical education I received in the Walk set me up perfectly to accept the Toronto Blessing without question.
 
I had been taught in the Walk to accept that God could do things that did not line up with the written Word. Now, in the Vineyard we had Prophets who were getting a steady stream of messages from God who could interpret what was going on for us, even though we did not know what the Bible taught on such matters.
 
So I went with it, and criticized the critics for being closed to what the Spirit was doing. I considered that those “old order Pharisees” just couldn’t handle it when God wanted to do something fresh in another group like ours. They just didn’t understand what God was doing in our midst. If they’d just open up their hearts to the Spirit, then they would understand that this was really God. But they couldn’t do that because they were “religious” and narrow minded. This pretty much summed up my attitude and the prevalent attitude of the pro-Toronto crowd.[11]
 
In the Walk we were used to accusations from other church groups of being a cult, and we all learned how to deal with that without letting it get to us. Didn’t Ishmael always persecute the true Isaac? Didn’t the old order always misunderstand the new thing God does? Were not the true prophets persecuted? So when other Christian groups began to question the Toronto Blessing and raise many serious and legitimate theological concerns, I already had the necessary psychological defenses in place to dismiss them out of hand - without ever stopping to think for even a moment that they just may have a point!
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 00:52:51
Isn't vineyard churches into slain in the spirit - holy laughter?
(toronto blessing). 

RUN don't walk......

Do they teach revival? As in bringing in the kingdom

Vineyard churches are into Jesus Christ and the fullness of the Spirit in the Christian's life.

The Vineyard is a great denomination!
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 01:35:41
Isn't vineyard churches into slain in the spirit - holy laughter?
(toronto blessing). 

RUN don't walk......

Do they teach revival? As in bringing in the kingdom

Vineyard churches are into Jesus Christ and the fullness of the Spirit in the Christian's life.

The Vineyard is a great denomination!


They are ALSO into demonic holy laughter and slain in the spirit.... Neither is backed up by scripture and infact they use scripture incorrectly to back their claim that it is from God and it is NOT!

Again RUN don't walk....
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 02:12:15
Isn't vineyard churches into slain in the spirit - holy laughter?
(toronto blessing). 

RUN don't walk......

Do they teach revival? As in bringing in the kingdom

Vineyard churches are into Jesus Christ and the fullness of the Spirit in the Christian's life.

The Vineyard is a great denomination!


They are ALSO into demonic holy laughter and slain in the spirit.... Neither is backed up by scripture and infact they use scripture incorrectly to back their claim that it is from God and it is NOT!

Again RUN don't walk....

You are obviously unaware of how Holy Spirit manifests in His people. It is fear and ignorance of something that declares something of the devil. Vineyard is not into anything that is demonic.

Vineyard is one of the good ones.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 02:15:46
Before anyone gets on the accusatory rampages that come out of these kinds of threads, read over the Vineyard statement of faith.

Here:

http://www.vineyardusa.org/site/files/about/Vineyard%20USA%20Statement%20of%20Faith.pdf (http://www.vineyardusa.org/site/files/about/Vineyard%20USA%20Statement%20of%20Faith.pdf)

Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: chosenone on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 02:44:10
The vineyard church that I went for 2 years was totally biblically based. The pastor who was a lovely guy, said that nothing would be allowed to happen that wasnt in the Bible, and of course, that includes the gifts and manifestastions of the Holy Spirit, such as tongues, propehecies, prayer for healing etc.. ALL 100% Biblical. If I had a vineyard near me I would definately go again.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 04:24:58
The vineyard church that I went for 2 years was totally biblically based. The pastor who was a lovely guy, said that nothing would be allowed to happen that wasnt in the Bible, and of course, that includes the gifts and manifestastions of the Holy Spirit, such as tongues, propehecies, prayer for healing etc.. ALL 100% Biblical. If I had a vineyard near me I would definately go again.

Same here, sister. If there was a Vineyard church here in my city, I would be there now.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 08:39:33
Lively stone... Again you teach things you do not know or understand... So let's see what it is you know... 

Holy laughter or drunk in the spirit is in vineyard churches so what in the bible backs that up?

Bet you have no idea... Also it's completely foolish to think you can read a statement of faith and find out if their true to the word.....


Let me ask you another question, what do you think of:

Joel olsteen or Billy Graham?



I do know how the holy spirit works but your type accepts it just like the letter I posted by feelings.... You teach others thing you yourself don't know about - statement of faith lol
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: chosenone on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 09:04:43
Lively stone... Again you teach things you do not know or understand... So let's see what it is you know... 

Holy laughter or drunk in the spirit is in vineyard churches so what in the bible backs that up?

Bet you have no idea... Also it's completely foolish to think you can read a statement of faith and find out if their true to the word.....


Let me ask you another question, what do you think of:

Joel olsteen or Billy Graham?



I do know how the holy spirit works but your type accepts it just like the letter I posted by feelings.... You teach others thing you yourself don't know about - statement of faith lol
 

Do not get drunk with wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit, is what we are told.

People thought that the disciples were drunk when they were filled with the spirit. They werent of course but they were clearly acting as if they were.

 The vineyard churches are charismatic, and they follow the Bibles teaching on the gifts of the spirit.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Willie T on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 09:08:57
As usual, KB, your foolish posts are nearly as silly as your signature.

Ever set foot inside a Vineyard Church?  No, I didn't think so.

Before I found a Vineyard, I was much as you.  I even told my wife we should stay away from that place...... where neither of us had ever been.  But a few weeks of Bible study and assembly with that fantastically-on-fire-for-Jesus group quickly began to show me that I had probably never been to a church that functioned as Jesus intended it to be.

I was appalled at how much of Jesus I had been missing for 35 years by simply "attending" what I mistook for the true CHURCH Jesus instituted.

I suspect you will never know the true expression of that freedom, but I will still pray for you to be led of God to something similar.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Willie T on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 09:13:54
It's so plain, ChosenOne, yet we fear God's working so much that we stay in the safe little cocoons we've woven for ourselves.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 11:33:17
Lively stone... Again you teach things you do not know or understand... So let's see what it is you know... 

That's awfully presumptuous of you...and false.

Quote
Holy laughter or drunk in the spirit is in vineyard churches so what in the bible backs that up?

It happens all over the world to Spirit-filled believers. In scripture people who are overcome with the presence of God would fall.

Quote
Bet you have no idea... Also it's completely foolish to think you can read a statement of faith and find out if their true to the word.....

I have been to the Vineyard. They were true to the word. Many churches aren't.

Quote
Let me ask you another question, what do you think of:

Joel olsteen or Billy Graham?

Love them in the Lord. That is no measure of anything sinister as you would love to think. These men present no reason for you to test anyone.

Quote
I do know how the holy spirit works but your type accepts it just like the letter I posted by feelings.... You teach others thing you yourself don't know about - statement of faith lol

My 'type', eh?

Don't even try to go there, Bubba.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Willie T on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 11:56:45
Yeah, KB, it's a pecular "type" Lively Stones is.  She's a lot like me.  BTW, it's called "Christian".
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: fenton on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 12:02:20
Yeah, KB, it's a pecular "type" Lively Stones is.  She's a lot like me.  BTW, it's called "Christian".


 ::applause::   ::amen!::  ::clappingoverhead::
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: chosenone on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 12:23:53
Yeah, KB, it's a pecular "type" Lively Stones is.  She's a lot like me.  BTW, it's called "Christian".


 ::applause::   ::amen!::  ::clappingoverhead::


Yes, a Christian who accepts the whole gospel message, along with the Holy Spirit and gifts.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Carey on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 12:27:11

My 'type', eh?

Don't even try to go there, Bubba.

 rofl

Love ya Lively.  ::smile::
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 12:33:00
Yeah, KB, it's a pecular "type" Lively Stones is.  She's a lot like me.  BTW, it's called "Christian".

Yep. I'm a PP, alright.

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 12:34:56

My 'type', eh?

Don't even try to go there, Bubba.

 rofl

Love ya Lively.  ::smile::

Love you too, Carey, along with my friends chosenone, fenton, fishy, candy, gospel and MeMyself, and Willie, here! This place is blessed with you all!
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Bitter Sweet on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 12:52:42
Good Afternoon LS!

Love you too, Carey, along with my friends chosenone, fenton, fishy, candy, gospel and MeMyself, and Willie, here! This place is blessed with you all!

Matthew 5:46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: chosenone on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 13:18:36
Good Afternoon LS!

Love you too, Carey, along with my friends chosenone, fenton, fishy, candy, gospel and MeMyself, and Willie, here! This place is blessed with you all!

Matthew 5:46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


 So we arent even allowed friends now? I love my friends and my family, there's nothing wrong with that. Do you not love your family bittersweet? We can also love others because love isnt limitless. ::smile:: With Gods love we can love anyone.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 13:20:32
Good Afternoon LS!

Love you too, Carey, along with my friends chosenone, fenton, fishy, candy, gospel and MeMyself, and Willie, here! This place is blessed with you all!

Matthew 5:46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Good one, BS. In this instance I am OK saying what I did, because there is a bond between people of like mind and heart.

John 13:35
Everyone will know that you are my disciples because of your love for each other.”
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Bitter Sweet on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 13:23:18
Good Afternoon LS!

Love you too, Carey, along with my friends chosenone, fenton, fishy, candy, gospel and MeMyself, and Willie, here! This place is blessed with you all!

Matthew 5:46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


 So we arent even allowed friends now? I love my friends and my family, there's nothing wrong with that. Do you not love your family bittersweet? We can also love others because love isnt limitless. ::smile:: With Gods love we can love anyone.

What are you asking me that for? All I did was post scripture, I didn't put in any opinion. Perhaps if you want to question scripture, take it up with God, not me, I didn't author it.

BTW I hope you have a wonderful day! Hopefully the weather won't be too bad, I saw that on the Olympics that some storm is heading your way.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: chosenone on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 13:32:06
Good Afternoon LS!

Love you too, Carey, along with my friends chosenone, fenton, fishy, candy, gospel and MeMyself, and Willie, here! This place is blessed with you all!

Matthew 5:46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


 So we arent even allowed friends now? I love my friends and my family, there's nothing wrong with that. Do you not love your family bittersweet? We can also love others because love isnt limitless. ::smile:: With Gods love we can love anyone.

What are you asking me that for? All I did was post scripture, I didn't put in any opinion. Perhaps if you want to question scripture, take it up with God, not me, I didn't author it.

BTW I hope you have a wonderful day! Hopefully the weather won't be too bad, I saw that on the Olympics that some storm is heading your way.


 However the scripture you posted doesnt mean that we cant love our friends.It only means that we are to love others AS WELL. You posted it to make others here feel bad, and took it out of context. All scripture needs to be in context, or we may as well use it as the cults do to make it mean whatever we want it to. ::shrug::
I am LOVING the olympics. We won loads of medals today in cycling, rowing, canoeing and am SO proud. The sun is shining, and if rain comes, so what? We are used to it, and it will make no difference.   ::smile::
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Willie T on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 14:01:00
However the scripture you posted doesnt mean that we cant love our friends.It only means that we are to love others AS WELL. You posted it to make others here feel bad, and took it out of context. All scripture needs to be in context, or we may as well use it as the cults do to make it mean whatever we want it to. ::shrug::
I am LOVING the olympics. We won loads of medals today in cycling, rowing, canoeing and am SO proud. The sun is shining, and if rain comes, so what? We are used to it, and it will make no difference.   ::smile::
Aw..... Did you do that, BS?  I feel so bad.  No I don't, not really... because I know you wouldn't do something like that after saying that you'd overlook the psychological disorders of a dottering old fool like me.  You're so understanding, of course you wouldn't.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Bitter Sweet on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 15:16:17
However the scripture you posted doesnt mean that we cant love our friends.It only means that we are to love others AS WELL. You posted it to make others here feel bad, and took it out of context. All scripture needs to be in context, or we may as well use it as the cults do to make it mean whatever we want it to. ::shrug::

I guess you should probably ask your husband if you have any questions about what scripture means instead of me, I am not the head over you. That also prevents that cultish stuff that you worry about. ::smile::


Quote
I am LOVING the olympics. We won loads of medals today in cycling, rowing, canoeing and am SO proud. The sun is shining, and if rain comes, so what? We are used to it, and it will make no difference.   ::smile::

Gymnastics is my favorite and swimming. I haven't gone out of my way to watch, just before bed I like to fall asleep watching it.  I did watch the rowing while my car was being serviced today. I think it was white water rafting, something like that.

Matthew 5:45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Swiss_Guard on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 16:13:33

Quote
That also prevents that cultish stuff that you worry about.
Ouch!


Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: chosenone on Thu Aug 02, 2012 - 16:54:25
 Bittersweet said
"I guess you should probably ask your husband if you have any questions about what scripture means instead of me, I am not the head over you. That also prevents that cultish stuff that you worry about."

Why do I need to ask him something that I already know? That scripture means that we are not to JUST love those who love us back, but also those who dont love us back. It is not telling us that we CANT love those who love us, of course.


I am not worried about cultish stuff, except that cults prevent people from knowing the truth, which is  very sad, and they do use scripture out of context and twist it to support their wrong beliefs, such as the JW's.


Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 09:12:59
WILLIET The vineyard churches are the ones who bring holy laughter

and it is demonic....  My signature is great but to you who only know one side of the coin it's foolishness....


Holy laughter and slain in the spirit and drunk in the spirit are DEMONIC!


Vineyard churches are the ones who allow this - you guys have once again let your emotions rule....

I heard vineyard churches are great for that......
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 09:29:24
The pastor who was a lovely guy, said that nothing would be allowed to happen that wasnt in the Bible


KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

that's YOUR JOB! not the pastors.... Your responcible if it's biblical or not.... That's the problem people take their pastors word for it....


They searched the scriptures daily to see if what he said was true or NOT.



Your pastor goes and gets taught from a school who teaches what it feels the bible says and passes it on to the pastor.... Your getting hand me downs


Not to mention it's a 501c3 IRS church no doubt....

But Christians want good feelings and would never question the spirirt or the church


No one here can show scripture that shows holy laughter or drunk in the spirit is biblical, yet many vineyard churches approve or do holy laughter... 

I know you had a good time at the church with your feelings....
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Willie T on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 09:31:05
WILLIET The vineyard churches are the ones who bring holy laughter
and it is demonic....  My signature is great but to you who only know one side of the coin it's foolishness....
Holy laughter and slain in the spirit and drunk in the spirit are DEMONIC!
Vineyard churches are the ones who allow this - you guys have once again let your emotions rule....
I heard vineyard churches are great for that......
"I heard....."  Yeah, your entire premise.  You truly KNOW nothing of Vineyard churches.

And you just called all those believers present at the first Pentecost after the crucifixion DEMONIC.  Probably not the smartest move you ever made.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 09:34:16
WILLIET The vineyard churches are the ones who bring holy laughter

and it is demonic....  My signature is great but to you who only know one side of the coin it's foolishness....


Holy laughter and slain in the spirit and drunk in the spirit are DEMONIC!

No, it isn't demonic. You are speaking out of ignorance and fear of what God is doing among His people.


Quote
Vineyard churches are the ones who allow this - you guys have once again let your emotions rule....

Churches who do not hinder Holy Spirit experience His manifestations of His presence, and the work He does in people who love God and seek after Him.


Quote
I heard vineyard churches are great for that......

The first giveaway that you speak errantly: "I heard..."

Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: DaveW on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 09:37:15
Is not saying something from the Holy Spirit is of demonic origin awefully close to the unforgivable sin of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit?


Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Willie T on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 09:38:57
Quote
I know you had a good time at the church with your feelings....

I'm sorry that you don't enjoy church.  Try a Vineyard. God's there.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: chosenone on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 09:41:47
The pastor who was a lovely guy, said that nothing would be allowed to happen that wasnt in the Bible


KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

that's YOUR JOB! not the pastors.... Your responcible if it's biblical or not.... That's the problem people take their pastors word for it....


They searched the scriptures daily to see if what he said was true or NOT.



Your pastor goes and gets taught from a school who teaches what it feels the bible says and passes it on to the pastor.... Your getting hand me downs


Not to mention it's a 501c3 IRS church no doubt....

But Christians want good feelings and would never question the spirirt or the church


No one here can show scripture that shows holy laughter or drunk in the spirit is biblical, yet many vineyard churches approve or do holy laughter... 

I know you had a good time at the church with your feelings....

I suspect that you have never been to a vineyard church. I have and nothing happend there that wasnt as described by Paul in the Bible. The gifts of the spirit were used as described by Paul.  I am the last person to go along with anything that the pastor says that isnt right or biblical. I  question a lot. 
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: chosenone on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 09:43:10
Is not saying something from the Holy Spirit is of demonic origin awefully close to the unforgivable sin of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit?
 

Yes very very close I would say.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 10:31:47
They were NOT ACTING DRUNK! They were speaking foreign languages!(acts 2:6-8)

They were NOT LAUGHING OUT OF CONTROL! they were speaking foreign languages!

Holy laughter is a vineyard based demonic indwellment of the believer!

It is NOT backed in anyway by scripture
and in fact as you've been shown here it falsely uses scripture

yet Christians accept it from God yet can't show anywhere in the word to back their belief


Those who laugh are indwelled by a devil!

But still some foolish people on here will argue against me over this even when their wrong!

If it's not based on scripture it's demonic!


Twist the word from foreign language to laughter and pay no mind to the scripture that codemns you!
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 10:35:39
Quote from: DaveW on Today at 08:37:15 AM
Is not saying something from the Holy Spirit is of demonic origin awefully close to the unforgivable sin of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit?
 

Yes very very close I would say.



KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:


Exactly what I'm talking about... Christians having no idea about holy laughter and thinking it's close to blashphmey of the spirit!

Find out before you speak in error. 
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 10:40:34
Is not saying something from the Holy Spirit is of demonic origin awefully close to the unforgivable sin of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit?
 

Yes very very close I would say.



Here again you speak of things you know not about..


If holy laughter WAS from God then I WOULD HAVE BLASHPHEMED THE HOLY SPIRIT

saying I'm very close Shows you don't know what it entails.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: DaveW on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 10:48:20
Exactly what I'm talking about... Christians having no idea about holy laughter and thinking it's close to blashphmey of the spirit!

Find out before you speak in error.
I am not calling holy laugher close to blaspheming the Spirit.  I am saying attributing it to the devil MIGHT be.

Luke 6.21 “Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you shall be satisfied.
“Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh.

Laughing is a blessing from the Lord.  It is a form of rejoicing which is COMMANDED.

Rejoice in the Lord always.  I say it again: Rejoice.   That can take the form of laughter.

As to drunken appearance, just talking a different language does not get people thinking you are drunk. In Eph 5, Paul contrasts being drunk with being filled with the spirit.  IOW, he is playing to their outward similarity but inner difference.

Even Jesus was accused of being a "winebibber" i.e. a drunkard.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: DaveW on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 10:52:51
If holy laughter WAS from God then I WOULD HAVE BLASHPHEMED THE HOLY SPIRIT

saying I'm very close Shows you don't know what it entails.
Blaspheming the HS is attributing his supernatural works to the devil when you know it is actually from God.

The reason I say "close" is I think you do not know it is from God.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 10:56:56
They were NOT ACTING DRUNK! They were speaking foreign languages!(acts 2:6-8)

They were NOT LAUGHING OUT OF CONTROL! they were speaking foreign languages!

Holy laughter is a vineyard based demonic indwellment of the believer!

It is NOT backed in anyway by scripture
and in fact as you've been shown here it falsely uses scripture

yet Christians accept it from God yet can't show anywhere in the word to back their belief


Those who laugh are indwelled by a devil!

But still some foolish people on here will argue against me over this even when their wrong!

If it's not based on scripture it's demonic!


Twist the word from foreign language to laughter and pay no mind to the scripture that codemns you!

When a person under the presence of Holy spirit laughs, it is the joy of the Lord. I have had this experience two or three times in my life with the laying on of hands. It is not evil, but of God. You may think it is not of God, but that is only your unlearned and inexperienced  opinion. I happen to know otherwise.

I have also seen people under the presence of Holy Spirit behave in a way that looks drunken, but that is also another manifestation of joy.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Bitter Sweet on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 11:05:07
Luke 6.21 “Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you shall be satisfied.
“Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh.

Laughing is a blessing from the Lord.  It is a form of rejoicing which is COMMANDED.

Rejoice in the Lord always.  I say it again: Rejoice.   That can take the form of laughter.

It goes on to say that people that laugh will be mourning and weeping.  ::pondering::

Luke 6:24 “But woe to you who are rich,
    for you have already received your comfort.
25 Woe to you who are well fed now,
    for you will go hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now,
    for you will mourn and weep.

26 Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you,
    for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 11:14:43
Livelystone said

When a person under the presence of Holy spirit laughs, it is the joy of the Lord. I have had this experience two or three times in my life with the laying on of hands. It is not evil, but of God. You may think it is not of God, but that is only your unlearned and inexperienced  opinion. I happen to know otherwise.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:


Do you hear yourself? Have you ever seen holy laughter in action? 


Even when you show them it's not backed and falsely uses scipture, we can count on lively stone to stand up for it..... Can you show scripture to back holy laughter


Or do you wanna use Acts like they do?  Your a foolish girl!

Do you have a husband you can learn from..... Lol 
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 11:21:01
Davew said:

Luke 6.21 “Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you shall be satisfied.
“Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh.


KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

but this laughing is when Jesus is ruling and Not talking about our life now.

We are weeping now!  Were suppose to be sober not act all out of control (for what's about to prove the world)

(livelystone)
no where does scripture show the holy spirit coming on people and making them laugh...

That's not a job of the HS

it's job is to lead in truth and Help us become like Jesus.

Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 11:26:14
Livelystone said

When a person under the presence of Holy spirit laughs, it is the joy of the Lord. I have had this experience two or three times in my life with the laying on of hands. It is not evil, but of God. You may think it is not of God, but that is only your unlearned and inexperienced  opinion. I happen to know otherwise.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:


Do you hear yourself? Have you ever seen holy laughter in action? 

Do you not read? I have experienced it. I have also seen it.


Quote
Even when you show them it's not backed and falsely uses scipture, we can count on lively stone to stand up for it..... Can you show scripture to back holy laughter


Or do you wanna use Acts like they do?  Your a foolish girl!

No, you are the foolish one, here, strutting in here and insulting people on things you know nothing about.

Quote
Do you have a husband you can learn from..... Lol

Yes, and he learns from me.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 11:33:09
Lively stone said

that is only your unlearned and inexperienced  opinion. I happen to know otherwise.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

I base it on the scripture THEY USE - falsely
what do you base it on?


So I guess you don't have scripture to back your foolish claims?


What's worst is after showing what verse they base it on as being false

you TEACH OTHERS to do as you do....

You've been indwelled by a devil if you've did holy laughter


The holy spirit leaves those who laugh the holy laughter


Now I know why yoU fight me so..... With nothing but feeling to back your claims!

Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 11:38:26
Lively stone said

that is only your unlearned and inexperienced  opinion. I happen to know otherwise.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

I base it on the scripture THEY USE - falsely
what do you base it on?


So I guess you don't have scripture to back your foolish claims?


What's worst is after showing what verse they base it on as being false

you TEACH OTHERS to do as you do....

You've been indwelled by a devil if you've did holy laughter


The holy spirit leaves those who laugh the holy laughter


Now I know why yoU fight me so..... With nothing but feeling to back your claims!

I don't have to defend Holy Spirit and how He works in His people. You attack Him and He will deal with you.

Scripture is rife with expressions about the joy of the Lord. Sometimes the joy comes in a huge dose and as a manifestation of the heavy presence of God. I have the anointing of joy on my life, and the manifestation of joy in laughter was the anointing I received.

You can poo-poo that all you like. It doesn't hurt me, because I know what I know. But it does grieve Holy Spirit. so, you need to curb your accusations and your condemnation. You speak of things you know nothing of.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 11:48:25
Lively stone said:

Yes, and he learns from me.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

a mans NOT suppose to get his learning from a woman!



1Cor 14:34 let your women keep silent in the churches
14:35 and if they will learn ANYTHING let them ask their husbands at home.


1Tim 2:12 but I suffer NOT a woman to TEACH - NOR to upsurp authority over a man
(your teaching on grace forums - would God go against himself and bless your teaching?

No ofcourse not... That's why you and I disagree on many things...... Woman



Ouch!
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Willie T on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 11:54:16
How sad for you, to think that coming to your Father means sitting in a pew, "soberly" watching the clock, hoping the dry, boring sermon will soon be over.  I would say I can't imagine that, but unfortunately I can.  All too well.

I've been where you are.  And I am so thankful that God got me out of religion.  Sometimes now, I have gone to church at around 7:00 on maybe a Thursday night, and never thought about the time till I happened to look at my watch to notice that it was almost 1:00 in the morning.  And we still got to enjoy being there for almost another hour.

I really do feel for you.  But what you know now is all you will likely ever know as long as you insist on puckering up and sitting there like a sad little lump of coal.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Willie T on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 11:56:31
Lively stone said:

Yes, and he learns from me.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

a mans NOT suppose to get his learning from a woman!



1Cor 14:34 let your women keep silent in the churches
14:35 and if they will learn ANYTHING let them ask their husbands at home.


1Tim 2:12 but I suffer NOT a woman to TEACH - NOR to upsurp authority over a man
(your teaching on grace forums - would God go against himself and bless your teaching?

No ofcourse not... That's why you and I disagree on many things...... Woman



Ouch!
Um Mmm!  You should be so thankful that God doesn't drop the hammer on you, right where you stand.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 11:57:20
Even Jesus was accused of being a "winebibber" i.e. a drunkard.


KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

but not because he acted drunk but because he drank with sinners
but NEVER did Christ act like a stumbling drunk

they were mad Jesus ate and drank with sinners! Matt 11:19

also Jesus is making contrast that John never ate nor drank and they said he have a devil
Jesus then drunks and eats with sinners and they say the same thing


Damned if you do
damned if you don't
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 11:59:22
Lively stone said:

Yes, and he learns from me.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

a mans NOT suppose to get his learning from a woman!



1Cor 14:34 let your women keep silent in the churches
14:35 and if they will learn ANYTHING let them ask their husbands at home.


1Tim 2:12 but I suffer NOT a woman to TEACH - NOR to upsurp authority over a man
(your teaching on grace forums - would God go against himself and bless your teaching?

No ofcourse not... That's why you and I disagree on many things...... Woman



Ouch!
Um Mmm!  You should be so thankful that God doesn't drop the hammer on you, right where you stand.

see people like williet have a problem with people like me who use and go by scripture

Willie the bible says those things about a woman - I can see you disagree with God
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:02:34
Lively stone said:

Yes, and he learns from me.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

a mans NOT suppose to get his learning from a woman!

That's not true. Everyone needs to learn from God and His word.

Quote
1Cor 14:34 let your women keep silent in the churches
14:35 and if they will learn ANYTHING let them ask their husbands at home.

I knew you'd fly off the handle.

Quote
1Tim 2:12 but I suffer NOT a woman to TEACH - NOR to upsurp authority over a man
(your teaching on grace forums - would God go against himself and bless your teaching?

No ofcourse not... That's why you and I disagree on many things...... Woman

You mean 'usurp'? Can this woman teach you some spelling?

God does bless my teaching. So, you will have to let God teach you concerning your misguided thinking.



Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:03:49
 Willie said:

How sad for you, to think that coming to your Father means sitting in a pew, "soberly" watching the clock, hoping the dry, boring sermon will soon be over.  I would say I can't imagine that, but unfortunately I can.  All too well.


KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

 You have never showed proof for holy laughter yet you continue to run your mouth on it.... Christians will accept anything (some)

Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:05:57
also Jesus is making contrast that John never ate nor drank and they said he have a devil
Jesus then drunks and eats with sinners and they say the same thing


Damned if you do
damned if you don't

I am in great company, then! Praise the Lord Jesus Christ!!
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:08:51
Livelystone said:

1Cor 14:34 let your women keep silent in the churches
14:35 and if they will learn ANYTHING let them ask their husbands at home.

I knew you'd fly off the handle.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:


Oh so when Gods word condemns you, I'm flying off the handle...


So you don't like those verses that condemn you and you still think God blesses your teachings


WOW...... Gods word condemns you not me.... Woman have a problem with those verses


You certainly can't teach on theose verses so what?


You have to skip them.... Your foolish to think God would go against his word for you


Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:14:47
also Jesus is making contrast that John never ate nor drank and they said he have a devil
Jesus then drunks and eats with sinners and they say the same thing


Damned if you do
damned if you don't


I am in great company, then! Praise the Lord Jesus Christ!!


See even here your understanding has failed...
Jesus was not laughing... Therefore you can't be in his company because of this verse.


This verse has NOTHING to do with Act2

it has NOTHING TO DO with acting drunk (or holy laughter)

but the whole thing is to show
John didn't drink and they condemned him
Jesus did and they Also condemned him






Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:18:53
see people like williet have a problem with people like me who use and go by scripture

Willie the bible says those things about a woman - I can see you disagree with God

And we can see you do not understand God or His word.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:25:10
Livelystone said:

1Cor 14:34 let your women keep silent in the churches
14:35 and if they will learn ANYTHING let them ask their husbands at home.

I knew you'd fly off the handle.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:


Oh so when Gods word condemns you, I'm flying off the handle...


So you don't like those verses that condemn you and you still think God blesses your teachings


WOW...... Gods word condemns you not me.... Woman have a problem with those verses


You certainly can't teach on theose verses so what?


You have to skip them.... Your foolish to think God would go against his word for you

I am not condemned, and you have no right to do so. You haven't the full understanding of what Paul teaches on the subject, so you need to just hush.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:28:18
also Jesus is making contrast that John never ate nor drank and they said he have a devil
Jesus then drunks and eats with sinners and they say the same thing


Damned if you do
damned if you don't


I am in great company, then! Praise the Lord Jesus Christ!!


See even here your understanding has failed...
Jesus was not laughing... Therefore you can't be in his company because of this verse.


This verse has NOTHING to do with Act2

it has NOTHING TO DO with acting drunk (or holy laughter)

but the whole thing is to show
John didn't drink and they condemned him
Jesus did and they Also condemned him

You have confused even yourself. I didn't give you any verse about Jesus laughing, nor any verse at all. You are the one who made a scripture reference!

I am in good company because the ignorant will call us demonized just as they did Jesus.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:41:37
So lively stone you can't give a verse to show uncontroled laughter as being bibical?


Didn't think so..... Use acts 2 because that what THEY use to prove it


So the church comes and bring holy laughter and says acts 2 is the basis for it..

You then laugh uncontrollable and don't believe you need anything to show it's of god...


Wonderful!
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: chosenone on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:48:59
Willie said:

How sad for you, to think that coming to your Father means sitting in a pew, "soberly" watching the clock, hoping the dry, boring sermon will soon be over.  I would say I can't imagine that, but unfortunately I can.  All too well.


KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

 You have never showed proof for holy laughter yet you continue to run your mouth on it.... Christians will accept anything (some)


....and yet other reject the gifts that God gives. ::frown::

 Incidentally there was no Holy laughter in the vineyard church that I went to. Maybe you need to go to a few different vineyard churches before you judge. Many different denominations are charismatic, and that as it should be.The gifts are for our use in the church.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: chosenone on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:52:53
Lively stone said:

Yes, and he learns from me.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

a mans NOT suppose to get his learning from a woman!



1Cor 14:34 let your women keep silent in the churches
14:35 and if they will learn ANYTHING let them ask their husbands at home.


1Tim 2:12 but I suffer NOT a woman to TEACH - NOR to upsurp authority over a man
(your teaching on grace forums - would God go against himself and bless your teaching?

No ofcourse not... That's why you and I disagree on many things...... Woman



Ouch!


 If you dont like discussions with women,  may I suggest that you find a men only forum? Here we believe that we are all equal in Gods sight as in "there is now no male or female".
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: chosenone on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:55:23
So lively stone you can't give a verse to show uncontroled laughter as being bibical?


Didn't think so..... Use acts 2 because that what THEY use to prove it


So the church comes and bring holy laughter and says acts 2 is the basis for it..

You then laugh uncontrollable and don't believe you need anything to show it's of god...


Wonderful!
 

All that you seem bothered with is this Holy laughter. Have you even actually seen this in person? Have you ever been to a vineyard church. Have you even been to any church that allows God to work using the gifts?Have you even been filled with the Spirit?
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 12:57:46
Livelystone said:

1Cor 14:34 let your women keep silent in the churches
14:35 and if they will learn ANYTHING let them ask their husbands at home.

I knew you'd fly off the handle.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:


Oh so when Gods word condemns you, I'm flying off the handle...


So you don't like those verses that condemn you and you still think God blesses your teachings


WOW...... Gods word condemns you not me.... Woman have a problem with those verses


You certainly can't teach on theose verses so what?


You have to skip them.... Your foolish to think God would go against his word for you

I am not condemned, and you have no right to do so. You haven't the full understanding of what Paul teaches on the subject, so you need to just hush.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:1 is about salvation

and has nothing to do with going against gods word on women.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 13:04:19
Hey if you wanna do something that they twist scripture on to make it fit

then by all means go ahead and be indwelled by a spirit that makes you do somehting that's not biblical based.....


By all means RUN
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 13:17:50
Do you wonder if what you watch on tv could bring a demonic encounter?  

I wanted to see how Satan was working the church... This one's called Holy Laughter or Drunk in the Spirit both of which are not biblical..... And in fact demonic. I wanted to work on becoming wise as a serpent by seeing how and what the serpent does and he does well in the church.... While I did this I realized that I had invited this into my home (1john :10) front door also means your tv....

What Verse(s) do they twist Act 2:1-15 with verse 13 the actual verse they use. False preachers like mr browne try to say that v13 is their proof of being drunk ( uncontroled laughter) in the spirit or holy laughter.... This is where people lost control and cannot stop laughing, sometimes laying on the floor and in some cases there's been barking like a dog or roaring like a lion.... (as soon as people think maybe it's demonic (barking ect) the demons back off.... Until people will maybe accept it later on) now these verses clearly say these men were MOCKING them about being drunk which should tell you right there these men (v13) wernt right.  Not only that these men were speaking in other mens tongues which was proof of Gods backing of these men (v4) but since most Christian churches only teach the milk of the word (heb 5:12-13 + 6:1-2) there by the believer doesn't study to see if what he says that verses are true or not.... Devil loves unskilled believers.....

So I was watching RHB's the great awakening which is on all the time here in Florida.... But this was a LIVE revival going on which had scrolling across the bottom not given amounts of money but that they were laughing instead..... (reason for viewing was to see how the devil was working and to see them laugh.... Nothing was going on except RHB talking about revival coming. I was about to change the channel when just an ominous feeling came over me (I didn't move blink or breath) thankfully two weeks earlier I had come to the conclusion that it was demonic... Thank God! Anyway to myself I said "I don't like this" and I next said "no way" I could tell it was trying to make me laugh..... That was a trip and had I been looking for the so called "holy spirit" to come over me no doubt I would of also started laughing and there's no way your spirit stays within you as you are also indwelled by a demon...... I could also see (not visual but in spirit a horizontal line that was all wiggley (sp) and I took it for a mouth and like it was trying to 'crack' a smile (it was as if someone stood in front of you trying to crack a smile and make you laugh) I could also see a jagged line all around me..... And could sense it was right in my face on my right side like a drill sergant, and after about 30 seconds it was over.... That night I didn't think about it but over the next nites I did... I recalled reading that when this spirit comes over you it has a electric feeling to the air..... Although I can't say I resisted the devil as I didn't know what it was at the time I froze. I really think what saved me was that even though I had no idea what was happning or that it was a demon I did know that it was demonic and that I would have nothing to do with it and I really believe the holy spirit stood on this in protecting me and how easy did I get off as I invited the devil in by watching the false teacher.....

My son is unsaved and he was just on the other side of the wall and if I had laughed my son could of then heard and came out and been open to demons because of my foolishness....

A spirit came to many others and they beliving it was of God invite it in.. They fail to confirm the spirit with the word!!!! They compared the word to the spirit because they never studied what Acts is really about and it cost them dearly..... Now the holy spirit is gone (at best they can repent) but until then a spirit can come an go as they please..... They foolishly believe that because laughter is fun... Good that it has to be from God cause devils are ugly and only do bad things....... Back in the eightys Greg Larson (nut job) described demons with fangs and bumps claws and this ur I heard someone use the same exact description and I knew it's just the devils way to get people to think all demons excounters are like the movie the exorcist so when they come like a angel of light you are fooled......


I learned an easy lesson.....
praise God



 
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 13:24:18
Willet said

How sad for you, to think that coming to your Father means sitting in a pew, "soberly" watching the clock, hoping the dry, boring sermon will soon be over.  I would say I can't imagine that, but unfortunately I can.  All too well.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

oh so it's either holy laughter or the above?


Lol come on williet....
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Bitter Sweet on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 13:44:25


Lol come on williet....

Actually, this discussion is making me laugh!   
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: chosenone on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 14:23:39
I repeat my question.
All that you seem bothered with is this Holy laughter. Have you even actually seen this in person? Have you ever been to a vineyard church?. Have you even been to any church that allows God to work using the gifts?Have you even been filled with the Spirit?
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Willie T on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 14:27:16
Sorry, I was off working out at the gym for a couple of hours.

I'm supposed to answer something?  Oh yeah, enjoying being with God or not.  I think you said, KB, that you are supposed to be sober or somber or something.

Me, I think I'll keep on looking forward to every moment I get to be with other Christians, and enjoying God's fellowship.  You can keep on doing whatever it is you do....... just don't smile.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Willie T on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 14:35:46
I just caught up some, and read post #89.

What a horrible shame.  God actually invited you.  And you refused.  And you denied your son the chance, too?  This the saddest thing I have yet heard on this forum.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Willie T on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 14:53:20
Oh, to have such a special opportunity that you gave up to continue playing church.

I, personally, have never enjoyed Holy Laughter.  Not me nor my wife.  We both went to a RHB meeting.... the revival is just down the hiway from us... but ask as we might, we got nothing.  Oh, some warm times, but no laughter.  Kind of saddened us, but it just didn't happen.

But to actually have God come right into your living room like you did, and to turn your back on it.... I can't fathom.  The only thing worse might be to deny the free gift of Jesus as some here do, and insist on staying under the very law He came to free us from, and try to somehow earn what He already died for us to have.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: WILDJC on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 16:02:40
Lively stone said:

Yes, and he learns from me.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

a mans NOT suppose to get his learning from a woman!



1Cor 14:34 let your women keep silent in the churches
14:35 and if they will learn ANYTHING let them ask their husbands at home.


1Tim 2:12 but I suffer NOT a woman to TEACH - NOR to upsurp authority over a man
(your teaching on grace forums - would God go against himself and bless your teaching?

No ofcourse not... That's why you and I disagree on many things...... Woman



Ouch!


You should examine this further. Because if you did, you would see that Paul speaks of his own opinion and distinguishes his own take on this and not of the Lord's.

But, to the rest, speak I, not the Lord.

But I speak this by permission and not of commandment.

For I would that all men were as I myself.

Amen.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 16:10:56
So lively stone you can't give a verse to show uncontroled laughter as being bibical?


Didn't think so..... Use acts 2 because that what THEY use to prove it


So the church comes and bring holy laughter and says acts 2 is the basis for it..

You then laugh uncontrollable and don't believe you need anything to show it's of god...


Wonderful!

A true manifestation of Holy Spirit is characterized by the fact that it is controllable.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 16:15:51
Livelystone said:

1Cor 14:34 let your women keep silent in the churches
14:35 and if they will learn ANYTHING let them ask their husbands at home.

I knew you'd fly off the handle.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:


Oh so when Gods word condemns you, I'm flying off the handle...


So you don't like those verses that condemn you and you still think God blesses your teachings


WOW...... Gods word condemns you not me.... Woman have a problem with those verses


You certainly can't teach on theose verses so what?


You have to skip them.... Your foolish to think God would go against his word for you

I am not condemned, and you have no right to do so. You haven't the full understanding of what Paul teaches on the subject, so you need to just hush.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:1 is about salvation

and has nothing to do with going against gods word on women.

No, the verse is about condemnation and God is letting us know that we are not condemned and we need to not take anyone's condemnation on board. It is the enemy who tries to condemn the people of God. Satan is the accuser, and he steals the truth of the word of God from people, and is very effective at confusing people concerning the passages about women.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 16:17:05
Let's see if this will clear it up for you..


As I said holy laughter is a vineyard product like it or not.

But to see if holy laughter is biblical Should be easy...


Those who teach holy laughter, such as Rodney Howard browne claim they use the verse of ACT 2 for their bases of Holy laughter or drunk in the spirit....


But since we know that the men wernt drunk and were only speaking in other languages.

So when it comes to uncontrolable laughter one would think it would be easy to understand that holy laughter is NOT BASED ON THE BIBLE AS THEY TEACH THE CHURCH!
 
One should see the Ways of the devil at work just because they tell them a false meaning to scripture
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Willie T on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 16:26:53
Lively,
I don't know if I posted this before, but I thought it might bring some Holy Laughter to you.  This is some of our book study group doing this.

[youtube]http://youtu.be/Ph8hdlHmzpU (http://youtu.be/Ph8hdlHmzpU)[/youtube]
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 17:06:20
More than ever, Christians must distinguish whether a move in the Church is of God or not. The Apostle John warned believers: “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1, NASV).

What about those who base their confidence on mere emotions and assert possession of “power evangelism” because of signs and wonders? If something is unexplainable and lacks real biblical support, can it really be a move from God? What if some practice creates chaos and frenzy, should it not be condemned on the basis of 1 Corinthians 12-14? Jesus Himself exhorted us: “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect” (Matthew 24:24, NASV).

In 1983, John Wimber broke ranks with the fellowship of Calvary Chapel to align himself with six other churches. A few years later, in 1987, they formed officially as the Association of Vineyard Churches. (See further, The Quarterly Journal, Vol. 15, No. 2.) Wimber serves as Founder and International Director of the Association.

Wimber’s sect has grown worldwide to nearly 550 congregations. In recent months its most noteworthy gathering has been the Toronto Airport Vineyard. Its purported “spiritual renewal,” manifested in laughing and the utterance of animal noises, has gained the attention of Christian and secular media.

These demonstrations of “God’s Spirit” have caused much controversy, so much so that last Dec. 5, the American Vineyard Board and Council ousted the Toronto Airport Vineyard at a meeting in Toronto. At the gathering, Wimber announced the decision to Airport’s senior pastor, John Arnott. Among those at the meeting were Robert Fulton and Todd Hunter, American colleagues; and Gary Best, the Canadian Vineyard coordinator. The ouster became official Jan. 20.

An “open letter” for general distribution from John Arnott states that the decision came as a surprise and that “we were offered no opportunity for discussion. We were removed without due process.” He indicated, however, that they “will be parting on friendly terms.” Growing universal concern of “The Toronto Blessing” is said to be the reason for disengagement.

According to the February 1996 issue of Charisma magazine,

“The issue centers in part on the unusual animal-like behavior — such as roaring or barking — that is sometimes manifested during renewal meetings at the Toronto church. Wimber said Arnott and his staff repeatedly were warned not to promote, encourage or theologize the animal behavior and the accompanying sounds” (pg. 12).

The Charismatic periodical also noted “members of the board, however, [thought that] the decision to release the Toronto church was not a rash one. In September 1994, the denomination’s position on the renewal was hashed out in an emergency session of the board and distributed to all Vineyard pastors. Over a 14-month period, Wimber said, the Toronto leaders repeatedly violated the guidelines contained in the position report. The 20-member board voted unanimously to release Toronto from the denomination.”

With the controversial (holy laughter) “renewal” taking place in Canada, Wimber apparently has had difficulty explaining to the media this “current move of God.” He became apprehensive about the manifestations of animal noises that are a part of the “blessings” in Toronto. Arnott’s open letter further stated that Wimber “felt he could no longer answer questions, including innuendoes and rumours regarding the renewal services. Rather than ask us to revamp the renewal meetings, they released us to continue as we believe God is leading us. ... [Wimber] feels the AVC Board is not called to shepherd something outside the ministry model God has given them.”

Although reports have circulated that other Vineyard fellowships, including ones in Pasadena and St. Louis, have resigned, it is not expected to cause a major split.

These “blessings” or “renewals” began in North America through the influence of South African evangelist Rodney Howard-Browne (see The Quarterly Journal, Vol. 14, No. 4). Howard-Browne, who calls himself a “Holy Ghost bartender,” fosters a laughing revival wherever he preaches.

In 1993, Howard-Browne led a series of meetings at Kenneth Hagin’s church in Tulsa, Okla., which St. Louis Vineyard pastor Randy Clarke attended. Clarke, through a series of subsequent encounters with other Vineyard pastors, later imparted the laughing revival to the Toronto church in 1994. As a result, well over 50,000 people had visited the Airport Vineyard Church that year. These people are to bring the “blessing” back to their home church for “times of refreshing” there. In Canada, the “blessing” has become a buzzword; those who have experienced it are considered elite.

What have these events proven? What are the fruits of this movement? How are people growing in Christ? Does the Vineyard church base their confidence on merely emotions, signs and wonders or on balanced teaching and biblical truth?

In spite of ties being severed by the AVC, it is odd that John Wimber stated in the Jan. 8, 1996, issue of Christianity Today: “I believe that there has been an authentic visitation of the Spirit there. However, I am unable because of my own scriptural and theological convictions to any longer give an answer for, or defend the way, this particular move is being pastored and/or explained” (pg. 66).

Equally odd is Wimber’s endorsement of Arnott’s book, The Father’s Blessing, an autobiographical account of the “Toronto Blessing,” and other works sympathetic to the purported “renewal.”

Then there’s the National Coordinator of Vineyard Churches, Todd Hunter, who told Christianity Today: “Wimber’s own statements had made it clear that board members wanted the renewal in Toronto to move toward greater scriptural emphasis.”

Hunter himself, at an October 1994 service at the Vineyard Fellowship in Mission Viejo, Calif., had members of the congregation shrieking and bellowing (one woman even squealing like a pig) while he said: “This is normal Christianity!”

It is the duty of Church authority to expose heresy as it manifests itself in the name of Christianity. Unhealthy spiritual consequences, including shipwrecked faith, will nearly always follow the rise of false teachings. Doctrine and theology should be tried and confirmed by the Word of God; our faith and trust is in Him alone. And in His unerring Word.

Despite Wimber’s proclamations, what are the roots of the Vineyard movement? Does Wimber and the Vineyard church wish to embrace sound doctrine? “Holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, that he may be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict” (Titus 1:9).

In the October 1982 issue of Christian Life magazine, Wimber demonstrated his indifference to sound doctrine. On page 10 a question he posed to Peter Wagner (his associate from Charles E. Fuller Institute of Evangelism and Church Growth) is quoted: “Would you object if I started a Bible class in my home based on what the Bible says and then attempted to demonstrate it by doing what first century Christians did... no theology — just Biblical study and application?” (emphasis added).

Does the bottom line indicate that the Vineyard church wishes to promote biblical interpretation? In a church-planting seminar in 1981, Wimber said: “Calvaryites [Calvary Chapel attendees] are sometimes a little too heavily oriented to the written Word. I know that sounds a little dangerous, but frankly they’re very Pharisaical in their allegiance to the Bible. They have very little life, and growth and spontaneity in their innards. Sometimes they’re very rigid and can’t receive much of the things of the Lord.”

Does Wimber deviate from God’s Word because of an extra-biblical mind-set? Do his teachings reveal discord with that of the Bible in his theology and methodology?

Consider his words from the Vineyard ‘83 Leadership Conference, “The Five Year Plan”: “All that is in the Bible is true but not all truth is in the Bible. We integrate all truth, both Biblical and other, into our experience of living.” Also, from his 1981 Church Planting Seminar, he stated, “God is greater than His word.”

Additionally, Vineyard churches have repeatedly confirmed their fixation on experience and outward manifestations. In a paper dated April 20, 1994, and “written to help teach the Champaign [Ill.] Vineyard church body good techniques for enhancing times of ministry” with “some helpful hints” we find these “Tips for Facilitating Ministry as a Leader”:

“3. If you don’t notice any outward manifestations of the Holy Spirit, ask those who sense a strong anointing within them to come for ministry. This might manifest as a burning, tingling, or ‘knowing,’ etc.”

and

“8. Some children have even been reported as being fearful of some of the manifestations they have experienced such as being pinned to the floor.”

In the section, “Tips for Praying for People” we read:

“7a. Help them to deal with a tendency to rationalize, with their fears, or with a loss of control.”

Further, in the last section titled, “Tips for Receiving Ministry” it states:

“2. Experience it before trying to analyze it. It is something like worshipping God, which has no rational explanation. Others have likened it to kissing, which is more emotional than analytical.”

The above statements contradict Paul’s exhortations to learn and follow sound doctrine. As a result, one is faced with confusion and disorder riding the emotional waves of the aberrant teachings of the Vineyard movement.

Indeed, Wimber and his associates, with their emotional guidance system, have created a “monster” that they now find hard to control. Wimber’s own life-threatening battle with cancer is a forceful illustration to the deficiency of his “power evangelism.” One should not place trust in subjective and supernatural encounters. Such encounters are so often of the flesh or the devil. The Word of God is our final authority and the foundation for our walk with Him. Caution is a prerequisite when dealing with those who claim to represent Christ.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Fri Aug 03, 2012 - 20:25:09
Re: KB's diatribe about the Vineyard:


(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Floatingaxe/Exclamations/cu_blah.jpg)




It is nothing but cut and paste hype.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: chosenone on Sat Aug 04, 2012 - 02:46:15
You appear to be avoiding my question.You claim to know all about the vineyard church but have you even been to one?. Have you even been filled with the spirit and been used in the spiritual gifts?Are you against the spiritual gifts such as tongues and prophecy?
<My vineyard church was nothing like you describe. My son was converted at a vineyard church and is an amazing man of God.
All you know is what you have read apparently. ::shrug::
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Sun Aug 05, 2012 - 21:15:29
Because of the fact that it is impacting the church and we are being told that it is of the Holy Spirit, it is important that we be a Bereans (Acts 17:10-11), and go to scriptures to determine if these things are so.

In support of their contention that drunkenness is not only acceptable, but is of God, the proponents typically refer to Acts 2:

Acts 2:5-8

And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Clearly, a miracle had taken place. I will skip ahead a few verses, where we see the discussion about what exactly it was that had just taken place:

Acts 2:12-13

And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
Note that the "mockers" were trying to discredit the events and the preaching of the gospel by suggesting that the apostles had consumed too much "new wine, and therefore were drunk.

Matthew Henry's Bible Commentary has this to say, "The scorn which some made of it who were natives of Judea and Jerusalem, probably the scribes and Pharisees and chief priests, who always resisted the Holy Ghost; they said, These men are full of new wine, or sweet wine; they have drunk too much this festival-time, v 13. And, if they called the Master of the house a wine-bibber, no marvel if they so call those of his house-hold."
Let's go on to what scripture tells us in response to the accusations of the mockers:

Acts 2:14

But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
So, Peter is clear that the mockers were not presenting the reality of the situation by suggesting that they were drunk. Note that Peter does not qualify that statement by suggesting that it was not wine, no, he leaves no opening for any type of drunkenness. Further, and quite contrary to drunkenness was clear preaching of the gospel, as see in the part of the sermon which is transcribed in scripture in Acts 2:22-39.

Contrary to what we see in drunkenness in the spirit, we did not see any record of the preacher staggering, we do not see any record of slurred speech or inability to speak, quite the contrary. We see that the only people who even tried to bring forward such a false accusation were the mockers. We see that the apostles spoke the gospel so clearly, and so boldly, and we see a miracle such that all heard in their own language such that 3000 people were saved that day (Acts 2:41).

Those who make the accusation that the apostles were drunk in the spirit at Pentecost stand in harmony with the views of the mockers, not in harmony with the apostles as recorded in scripture.

Throughout the New Testament, we see many times that scripture mentions the infilling of the Holy Spirit, but never does it associate either the symptoms of or mention of drunkenness in the spirit as being associated with it. Indeed, we see admonitions in scripture to avoid drunkenness:

Eph 5:18

Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.
In 1 Peter 4:7, we see that scripture goes a step further, and urges us to keep a clear mind so that we can pray.

But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
It is interesting that we find associated with this movement, exhortations not to pray during their "ministry" time. It appears that they have discovered what scripture says, and that is that God, prayer and drunkenness are not compatible, and indeed the spirit that causes drunkenness and the one true God are not compatible.

So, we see that the apostles were not drunk at Pentecost, in the spirit or otherwise, but does the Bible mention drunkenness, and if so what does it say about it? Lets go to another verse which is commonly used to support drunkenness in the spirit:

Jer 23:9-11

Concerning the prophets:
My heart is broken within me;all my bones tremble.
I am like a drunken man,like a man overcome by wine,because of the Lord and his holy words.The land is full of adulterers;because of the curse the land lies parched
and the pastures in the desert are withered.
The prophets follow an evil course
and use their power unjustly.
Both prophet and priest are godless;
even in my temple I find their wickedness,
declares the Lord.
This passage is understood by many exegetes as having been written in the time of Zedekiah's reign, when false prophets (among others) sorely oppressed Jeremiah. As the Matthew Henry Commentary says,

He expresses what a trouble it was for him to see men who pretended to a divine commission and inspiration ruining themselves, and the people among whom they dwelt, by their falsehood and treachery..............Jeremiah was a man who laid things much to heart, and what was in any way threatening to his country made a deep impression upon his spirits...........He trembled to think of the ruin and desolation which were coming from the face of the Lord (so the word is) and from the face of the word of his holiness.
There is no indication in this passage that Jeremiah was overcome by a spirit of drunkenness, rather it appears, as this commentary says, that he was so very distraught about what was happening, and about the judgement which would fall upon the people because of the false prophets that he liken his state to that of a drunken man.

If there be a connection between this passage, and it application to what we see today, it can only be with regard to a coming judgement due to false prophecy. In no way can it be suggested that this verse justifies an experience such as drunkenness in the spirit without taking the entire verse out of context.

Isaiah also speaks of drunkenness, but perhaps his references get closer to what we see happening today:

Isa 29:9-10

Be stunned and amazed,blind yourself and be sightless;be drunk, but not from wine,stagger, but not from beer.The Lord has brought over you a deep sleep;
He has sealed your eyes (the prophets);
he has covered your heads (the seers).
As can be seen in Isa. 6:9-10, Isaiah was very aware that his word wouldn't be accepted. Thus, in contrast to the Jeremiah who was a true prophet who was so distraught that he likened his state to that of a drunken man, those who are discussed in this passage of Isaiah's that are described as drunk the false prophets.

Further, what we see in this passage is that these false prophets are drunk and scripture is very specific that it is a judgement brought on them from the Lord, and that it is not as a result of drink, but rather it is a spiritual drunkenness. IT further says that they display the outward signs of drunkenness such as staggering.

The churches today who are in this movement are in large discouraging use of scripture in favour of new revelation from their prophets, many of whom are drunk and staggering in church from what we hear from reports from within the movement.

Isaiah also describes drunkenness in Chapter 63.

Isa 63:6

I trampled the nations in my anger;
in my wrath I made them drunk
and poured their blood on the ground.
The use of this verse in opposing drunkenness in the spirit is questioned by some in the movement who say that this is not applicable because it refers to the coming of the Redeemer. As one person wrote to me:

God's winepress, and the wine he presents, are prophetically used to represent God's wrath (cf. Rev. 14:19-20; 19:11-16). Revelation shows this as referring to Christ at his second coming -- *not* prior to, but _at_ his coming... what we call Armageddon.
Again, refers to drunkenness, though, and not positively. Still it is judgement. Whether it refers to a future event, and whether it refers to an event prior to or at the Second Coming is not valid, because God does not have situational ethics or morals. He is the same yesterday, today and forever (Heb 13:8).

So, where are there any positive references to drunkenness? I have not found any in scripture, and to date, no one has been able to come forward with any scriptural basis where we are exhorted to drunkenness or where God provides for, or the Holy Spirit causes or endorses, or any men of God speak positively of drunkenness in scriptures. Yet the movement promotes drunkenness in the spirit very strongly. So strongly that we see Rodney Howard-Browne call himself the "Holy Ghost Bartender", we see websites such as "Tim Gibson's Drinking Songs", and we see conferences titled or advertised in such ways as to promote drunkenness. We see men such as John Kilpatrick speak positively about drunkenness in the spirit, and we see testimonies everywhere about drunkenness.

Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Sun Aug 05, 2012 - 21:24:53
You appear to be avoiding my question.You claim to know all about the vineyard church but have you even been to one?. Have you even been filled with the spirit and been used in the spiritual gifts?Are you against the spiritual gifts such as tongues and prophecy?
<My vineyard church was nothing like you describe. My son was converted at a vineyard church and is an amazing man of God.
All you know is what you have read apparently. ::shrug::


No not avoiding I just don't live online.... I gave My story about Rodney Howard browne in this Post I believe.... When the spirit came to make me laugh I knew it was a devil....

Since mr browne is a Vineyard man I believe I have knowledge about holylaughter..


No where did I say all vineyard churches do this, but these manifestations ARE a product of the Vineyard churches and the leaders who started them!  Toronto blessing (go ahead and read about it) had the laughter ..... And barks and grunts..... And MANY pastor have come over the years to get the BLESSING or ANOINTING..... no where does scripture tell believers the Holy spirit does this to us....

I'm can't say I'm sorry in the least for going against you... The bible doesn't support it


Therefore it's not of God....

No matter how much you love your church
or the pastor or friends orhow good it makes you feel...

Were suppose to test the spirits

and we do this by finding it in scripture.... If we can't then we should know it's not of God!
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Sun Aug 05, 2012 - 21:43:29
You appear to be avoiding my question.You claim to know all about the vineyard church but have you even been to one?. Have you even been filled with the spirit and been used in the spiritual gifts?Are you against the spiritual gifts such as tongues and prophecy?
<My vineyard church was nothing like you describe. My son was converted at a vineyard church and is an amazing man of God.
All you know is what you have read apparently. ::shrug::


No not avoiding I just don't live online.... I gave My story about Rodney Howard browne in this Post I believe.... When the spirit came to make me laugh I knew it was a devil....

Maybe it was, and maybe it wasn't.

Quote
Since mr browne is a Vineyard man I believe I have knowledge about holylaughter..

Browne is not Vineyard. You have no knowledge of the manifestation of the Spirit because you have disdain for it.

Quote
No where did I say all vineyard churches do this, but these manifestations ARE a product of the Vineyard churches and the leaders who started them!

No they aren't.

Quote
Therefore it's not of God....

No matter how much you love your church
or the pastor or friends orhow good it makes you feel...

Were suppose to test the spirits

and we do this by finding it in scripture.... If we can't then we should know it's not of God!

When it has happened to me, it has passed the test. When Holy Spirit is in a place, there is no room for a devil. He's so allergic, he's out of there.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: fenton on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 10:15:31
when you look for satan in everything, you will find him in everything.....
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: fenton on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 10:25:44
i wonder if crying uncontrollably is of satan....  ::pondering::  ::shrug::   


 ::frown::   ::frown:: 
 
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: DaveW on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 10:28:34
When Holy Spirit is in a place, there is no room for a devil. He's so allergic, he's out of there.
So explain this passage from Job 1 then:

6 Now it happened on the day when God’s sons came to present themselves before the LORD, that Satan also came among them.
7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, “From going back and forth in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.”
8 The LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant, Job? For there is none like him in the earth, a blameless and an upright man, one who fears God, and turns away from evil.”
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing?
10 Haven’t you made a hedge around him, and around his house, and around all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth your hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will renounce you to your face.”
12 The LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power. Only on himself don’t put forth your hand.”

Rev 12.10 describes the devil's CURRENT job:

10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

Not from somewhere else but right "before God."  That does not sound "allegic" to me.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: fenton on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 10:31:48
When Holy Spirit is in a place, there is no room for a devil. He's so allergic, he's out of there.
So explain this passage from Job 1 then:

6 Now it happened on the day when God’s sons came to present themselves before the LORD, that Satan also came among them.
7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, “From going back and forth in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.”
8 The LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant, Job? For there is none like him in the earth, a blameless and an upright man, one who fears God, and turns away from evil.”
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing?
10 Haven’t you made a hedge around him, and around his house, and around all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth your hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will renounce you to your face.”
12 The LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power. Only on himself don’t put forth your hand.”

Rev 12.10 describes the devil's CURRENT job:

10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

Not from somewhere else but right "before God."  That does not sound "allegic" to me.

i have never realy understood this either... evil and God in the same place...   ::shrug::  ::shrug::
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Willie T on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 10:33:25
i wonder if crying uncontrollably is of satan....  ::pondering::  ::shrug::   
 ::frown::   ::frown:: 
My wife just cleared this up for me.  "Uncontrollable crying"....... no, not of Satan... normally.  It's only of Satan when it happens within the walls of the church... er I mean "the building".
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Willie T on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 10:36:34
Trust me.  If you want to find Satan, just open the doors to most any church on any Sunday morning.  He'll be right there, sitting on the first pew, smiling.

Ever notice that Jesus performed almost NO miracles in churches?  Probably because there is too much unbelief in many churches.  (See my left bar info.... Religion is unbelief.)
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: chosenone on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 10:38:09
You appear to be avoiding my question.You claim to know all about the vineyard church but have you even been to one?. Have you even been filled with the spirit and been used in the spiritual gifts?Are you against the spiritual gifts such as tongues and prophecy?
<My vineyard church was nothing like you describe. My son was converted at a vineyard church and is an amazing man of God.
All you know is what you have read apparently. ::shrug::


No not avoiding I just don't live online.... I gave My story about Rodney Howard browne in this Post I believe.... When the spirit came to make me laugh I knew it was a devil....

Since mr browne is a Vineyard man I believe I have knowledge about holylaughter..


No where did I say all vineyard churches do this, but these manifestations ARE a product of the Vineyard churches and the leaders who started them!  Toronto blessing (go ahead and read about it) had the laughter ..... And barks and grunts..... And MANY pastor have come over the years to get the BLESSING or ANOINTING..... no where does scripture tell believers the Holy spirit does this to us....

I'm can't say I'm sorry in the least for going against you... The bible doesn't support it


Therefore it's not of God....

No matter how much you love your church
or the pastor or friends orhow good it makes you feel...

Were suppose to test the spirits

and we do this by finding it in scripture.... If we can't then we should know it's not of God!

  Rodney Howard Brown in one man in one church in one country.
The vineyard church that I went to was amazing and I would reccommend to anyone. I wish that we had one locally now. Nothing ever happened there that I felt in the least uncomfortable about and I am quite spiritually discerning I am told.  Maybe you need to go to a few before you judge.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: chosenone on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 10:39:56
i wonder if crying uncontrollably is of satan....  ::pondering::  ::shrug::   


 ::frown::   ::frown:: 
 


 Well that did occur to me also fenton. I mean laughing and crying are pretty close in the human enotions. Maybe we arent allowed to show any emotion at all.. ::shrug::
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: chosenone on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 10:41:53
KB have you been baptised in the spirit? Does your church allow God to work using the gifts that He has given?
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 10:42:12
when you look for satan in everything, you will find him in everything.....

You got that right, fenton.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: chosenone on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 10:43:35
Trust me.  If you want to find Satan, just open the doors to most any church on any Sunday morning.  He'll be right there, sitting on the first pew, smiling.

Ever notice that Jesus performed almost NO miracles in churches?  Probably because there is too much unbelief in many churches.  (See my left bar info.... Religion is unbelief.)



 Isnt that the truth Willie, especially the more 'religious' churches (believe me I know, I've been to a few)
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Willie T on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 10:45:05
Oh, c'mon, Chosenone.  Those fanatical so-called "gifts" are of Satan, too.  Everybody (well, "true" believers) knows that.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 10:46:51
When Holy Spirit is in a place, there is no room for a devil. He's so allergic, he's out of there.
So explain this passage from Job 1 then:

6 Now it happened on the day when God’s sons came to present themselves before the LORD, that Satan also came among them.
7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, “From going back and forth in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.”
8 The LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant, Job? For there is none like him in the earth, a blameless and an upright man, one who fears God, and turns away from evil.”
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing?
10 Haven’t you made a hedge around him, and around his house, and around all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth your hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will renounce you to your face.”
12 The LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power. Only on himself don’t put forth your hand.”

Rev 12.10 describes the devil's CURRENT job:

10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

Not from somewhere else but right "before God."  That does not sound "allegic" to me.

Satan cannot stand to be around those who know who they are in Christ, because we will put him down every time. Those who don't really understand how the Kingdom of God works, and what authority we have in Christ will be deceived.

When Holy Spirit's presence is heavy on a person, the devil is powerless, and he'd be an idiot to try to intervene. He goes after Christians with chinks in their spiritual armour.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: DaveW on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 10:51:21
Quote from: DaveW
Quote from: Lively Stone
When Holy Spirit is in a place, there is no room for a devil. He's so allergic, he's out of there.
So explain this passage from Job 1 then:

6 Now it happened on the day when God’s sons came to present themselves before the LORD, that Satan also came among them.
7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, “From going back and forth in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.”
8 The LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant, Job? For there is none like him in the earth, a blameless and an upright man, one who fears God, and turns away from evil.”
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing?
10 Haven’t you made a hedge around him, and around his house, and around all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth your hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will renounce you to your face.”
12 The LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power. Only on himself don’t put forth your hand.”

Rev 12.10 describes the devil's CURRENT job:

10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

Not from somewhere else but right "before God."  That does not sound "allegic" to me.

Satan cannot stand to be around those who know who they are in Christ, because we will put him down every time. Those who don't really understand how the Kingdom of God works, and what authority we have in Christ will be deceived.

When Holy Spirit's presence is heavy on a person, the devil is powerless, and he'd be an idiot to try to intervene. He goes after Christians with chinks in their spiritual armour.
At least Fenton was honest that he did not understand the scripture. 

You are completely ignoring it.

Please read the passage and explain how your position can be true if these verses are true.

I think it is not as cut and dry as you make it to be.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: fenton on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 10:55:39
its not that i don't understand the scriptures.. i do... very well......

if evil is exposed to light...  how could satan stay in Gods presence 
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Willie T on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 11:00:09
I posted this once before.  It is from a Canadian friend, Gary Best.  It shows how he feels we have to be careful to be certain God is right there with us at the moment we decide to step out.

When I was younger, I was quite taken with a cartoon advertisement that used to appear regularly in various magazines. The purpose was to highlight how the Charles Atlas exercise program could change your life.  Each cartoon strip followed the same script.  It always began with a skinny young man (that I always identified with) that miraculously had the most beautiful girlfriend.  Often he would make the same grievous mistake: He would take her to the beach.  (“No, don’t do it!”  I would caution – he never listened.)  Invariably, they would be confronted by a buff, powerful man (on steroids?), who would kick sand in the young man’s face and humiliate him in front of his girlfriend.

Discouraged, he would walk away, only to discover the magazine ad.  Immediately he would send away for this extraordinary secret program and, within minutes of receiving it and putting it into practice, he would be transformed into the ultimate specimen of macho manhood.  With new confidence, he would head for the beach and impress the girl by asserting his newfound power.  (“She’s bad news,” I warned, but he still never listened.)

This is a classic example of power over power.  Often we approach our kingdom commission just that way, looking for the magic program that will transform us into “men and women of power”, who will be able to overcome our evil opponents single-handedly.  How could this story be changed to illustrate the true nature of our commission, that of ambassadorial authority?

I suppose the story might play out much the same way until the young man wanders despondently away from the beach.  This time, however, he doesn’t encounter a magazine advertisement; he runs into an old friend – Arnold Schwarenegger.  As he pours out his heart to Arnie, his friend says, “Let’s go back and right this wrong!”  Excitedly, our young friend returns, finds the beach bully, and puffing up his chest, announces, “You’re outta here!”  With a frightening stare, the man forgets all about the beautiful girl and literally races for safety.

Who is he staring at?  At first it might appear that he is looking at our new hero.  In reality, he is looking just past him to the one riding shotgun off his right shoulder – Arnold!.  “Hasta la vista, baby!” he says.  This is authority over power.  Our man hasn’t gained a pound or grown an inch.  He has, however, gained authorization from a superior power that has agreed to “back his act”.

This kind of support can be intoxicating.  I can imagine our young man becoming so zealous that he decides to rid the beach of every undesirable.  This could work well… until Arnold breaks for lunch or decides that the mission has now exceeded what he originally “authorized”.  So it is with our kingdom mission.  Our success is commensurate to the authority that backs us and that backing is totally dependent on our obedience.  When we are simply walking out what we have been commissioned to do, we can expect God’s full support
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lively Stone on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 11:07:29
Quote from: DaveW
Quote from: Lively Stone
When Holy Spirit is in a place, there is no room for a devil. He's so allergic, he's out of there.
So explain this passage from Job 1 then:

6 Now it happened on the day when God’s sons came to present themselves before the LORD, that Satan also came among them.
7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, “From going back and forth in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.”
8 The LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant, Job? For there is none like him in the earth, a blameless and an upright man, one who fears God, and turns away from evil.”
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing?
10 Haven’t you made a hedge around him, and around his house, and around all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth your hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will renounce you to your face.”
12 The LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power. Only on himself don’t put forth your hand.”

Rev 12.10 describes the devil's CURRENT job:

10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

Not from somewhere else but right "before God."  That does not sound "allegic" to me.

Satan cannot stand to be around those who know who they are in Christ, because we will put him down every time. Those who don't really understand how the Kingdom of God works, and what authority we have in Christ will be deceived.

When Holy Spirit's presence is heavy on a person, the devil is powerless, and he'd be an idiot to try to intervene. He goes after Christians with chinks in their spiritual armour.
At least Fenton was honest that he did not understand the scripture. 

You are completely ignoring it.

Please read the passage and explain how your position can be true if these verses are true.

I think it is not as cut and dry as you make it to be.

The verses were true. God isn't allergic to evil. Nothing can stop Satan from communicating with God when He commands it. He has to present himself if commanded. Now, because of Holy Spirit, we can also command him to get lost when he presents himself before us. Holy Spirit as God is massive in power, and Satan is not a masochist...he will not get in the way of a move of the Holy Spirit on a person who is seeking and enjoying His presence. When we worship with all we've got, God comes, and Satan's little imps' hands are tied.
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lily76 on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 19:21:25
You appear to be avoiding my question.You claim to know all about the vineyard church but have you even been to one?. Have you even been filled with the spirit and been used in the spiritual gifts?Are you against the spiritual gifts such as tongues and prophecy?
<My vineyard church was nothing like you describe. My son was converted at a vineyard church and is an amazing man of God.
All you know is what you have read apparently. ::shrug::


unholy laugher is not from God. And I did not notice anything ungodly in vineyard church that I visited.

I have so much respect for this Pastor. I think his teaching is godly. He said nothing about unholy laugher:

What It Means To Be Spirit Filled (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HHd9Sl8yPM#ws)

Ask For The Holy Spirit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ewv2eMABvYo#ws)
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lily76 on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 19:30:19
Question: "What is holy laughter?"

Answer: The term "holy laughter" was coined to describe a phenomenon during which a person laughs uncontrollably, presumably as a result of being filled with the Holy Spirit's joy. It is characterized by peals of uncontrollable laughter, sometimes accompanied by swooning or falling down to the floor. Firsthand accounts from those who have had this experience vary somewhat, but all seem to believe it to be a sign of a "blessing" or "anointing" of the Holy Spirit.

The experience of holy laughter is, by nature, a subjective one. Therefore, in an effort to find the truth of the matter, we must try to be objective. When our definition of truth depends upon our experience of the world, we are a very short way from becoming entirely relative in our thinking. In short, feelings do not tell us what is true. Feelings are not bad, and sometimes our feelings are aligned with scriptural truth. However, they are more often aligned with our sin nature. The fickle nature of the heart makes it a very unreliable compass. "The heart is more deceitful than all else, and is desperately sick; who can understand it?" (Jeremiah 17:9). This deceitful-heart principle is specifically applicable to the phenomenon known as "holy laughter." There is no doubt that people have indeed begun to laugh uncontrollably at revival meetings. That is a fact. But what does it really mean?

Laughter is addressed a number of times in the Bible. Often it is used to describe a mocking or scornful response, as was the case with Abraham and Sarah who laughed when God told them they would bear a child in their old age. Some verses use it as a sign of derision (Psalm 59:8; Psalm 80:6; Proverbs 1:26), and still others make pointed statements about the nature of laughter itself. Solomon, for example, made the following observation in Ecclesiastes 2:2: "I said of laughter, ‘It is madness,’ and of pleasure, ‘What does it accomplish?’" He then goes on to say, in 7:3, "Sorrow is better than laughter, for when a face is sad a heart may be happy." Proverbs 14:13 says the reverse: "Even in laughter the heart may be in pain, and the end of joy may be grief." Both of these verses are true: a sad person may laugh to cover his sadness, and a person may cry although he is inwardly happy. So, not only does emotion fail to give us truth, but we also see that laughter is not always indicative of joy. It can mean anger, sadness, or derision. Likewise, the lack of laughter does not automatically mean sadness. Laughter is clearly subjective.

The most convincing scriptural argument against what is called "holy laughter" is found in Galatians 5:22-23. It says, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." If self-control is a fruit of the Spirit of God, how can uncontrollable laughter also be a fruit of His Spirit? Revival leaders claim that being filled with the Spirit means that we are sort of "tossed about" by His whims. But the idea that God would make people act drunk or laugh uncontrollably or make animal noises as a result of the Spirit's anointing is directly opposed to the way the Spirit acts, according to Galatians 5:22-23. The Spirit described in Galatians 5 is one who promotes self-control within us, not the opposite. Finally, there was no one in the Bible more filled with the Holy Spirit than Jesus, and not once does the Bible ever record Him laughing.

In light of these things, it is profitable to take a look at the following passage from 1 Corinthians 14, where Paul talks about speaking in tongues: "But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what will I profit you unless I speak to you either by way of revelation or of knowledge or of prophecy or of teaching?" (v.6).

"For if the bugle produces an indistinct sound, who will prepare himself for battle? So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air” (vv. 8-9).

"What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God" (vv. 26-28).

"...for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints" (v. 33).

In those days, many people in the churches were speaking in languages that were unrecognizable to others, and, therefore, Paul says they were useless in the church because the speaker could not edify others with his speech. The same could be applied to holy laughter. What does it profit (Paul asks) unless we speak to one another with revelation, teaching, knowledge and truth? Again, he says, "Let all things be done for edification." He caps off his argument by saying, "God is not a God of confusion, but of peace," which makes it clear that he does not want the atmosphere within the church to be one of confusion and meaninglessness, but one of knowledge and edification.

It seems, from what Paul is saying, that which is called "holy laughter" would fall under the category of what is "not edifying" to the body of Christ, and should therefore be avoided. We have recognized that a) laughter is an unreliable emotional response; b) it can be a sign of several different emotions; and c) it does not accomplish anything useful. Furthermore, uncontrollable spasms of emotion are contrary to the nature of the Holy Spirit. It is advisable, therefore, not to look to "holy laughter" as a means of growing nearer to God or as a means of experiencing His Spirit.

http://www.gotquestions.org/holy-laughter.html (http://www.gotquestions.org/holy-laughter.html)
Title: Re: Vineyard churches (Some questions)
Post by: Lily76 on Tue Aug 07, 2012 - 22:34:12
KNOWLEDGE BOMB,

Ok did not get enough time to read what you said.

Quote
“They are ALSO into demonic holy laughter and slain in the spirit.... Neither is backed up by scripture and infact they use scripture incorrectly to back their claim that it is from God and it is NOT!
Again RUN don't walk....”

Holy laughter is not demonic. read what I posted. I do not feel comfortable about it myself. I’ll definitely put a question mark there. But God can make you laugh and smile because it is healthy (not in uncontrollable way though) That could be a sign of the Holy Spirit. We laugh a lot in my Anglican church but not in way that we can’t control it. That is because the sermons are fun :)

I have not witnessed such a thing. Anyway, Holy laughter is not something I feel comfortable about but laughing in a good manner can be godly thing.

Quote
“Holy laughter or drunk in the spirit is in vineyard churches so what in the bible backs that up?”

The antichrist Jews accused Christ and the apostles of being drunkards. Some people seem drunk when they speak in tongues. I have seen it in the reformed Anglican Church. My husband and sister in law spoke in tongues many times. I think you just attend a very formal church and never experienced this.
 
Quote
“If it's not based on scripture it's demonic!”


LOL another fairy tales stories eveything has to be from demons on this site!!!?

No, it is not. God can make you laugh and have happiness, but not out of control.

Quote
“a mans NOT suppose to get his learning from a woman!”

Why not? You’re not a better creature just because you’re a man. We got so many bigots on these forums! yak! And you did not understand what you read. In the church I used to go to we had women pastors including my sister in law and we were blessed by them, indeed. Yes they were the teachers and men learn from us. Your mind is polluted by ignorance about ladies. Also, you judge all vineyard churches to be demonic and unbiblical?! you just copy/past things. I did not notice anything unusual in the vineyard church I go to now. As I said you can laugh, but not out of control, and that can be of God and speaking in tongues is biblical even if it looks weird to you.
 
So ok you do not accept holy laughter. That is ok. I do not feel comfortable about it either, and it is not demonic. Demons do not want to be in a church.  ::doh::

Stop making stupid false comments about vineyard churches. I did not notice anything unusual! :/