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Offline tennman

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Bible Verses On Spanking Children
« on: November 28, 2011, 10:58:51 AM »
Here are some Bible verses on spanking children and discipline. I know it's not a popular topic today and most so-called experts say it's bad but the Bible seems to say otherwise. Cases of abuse are often stated, but abuse of a method does not make the method bad, just abuse of it (like prescription drugs, guns, cars, sex, etc.). So let's not try to use abuse of spanking as a case against it when done correctly, from a loving parent.

Biblical spanking, or as our Bible calls it, “chastisement,
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Bible Verses On Spanking Children
« on: November 28, 2011, 10:58:51 AM »

Offline Seriousseeker

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Re: Bible Verses On Spanking Children
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2011, 04:01:07 PM »
I agree that child discipline is essential, and it is shown in these verses (see KJV):

Proverbs 19:18;  Prov. 29:17;  Hebrews 12:6-8.

We don't find "the rod" given in the New Testament for the church, but I am confident that proper and reasonable "spanking" is sometimes needed to get the attention of a child, as you say, and impress the importance of the matter.  In the NT, "discipline" or "chastening" is used and to be more than just a talk with the child.  It speaks of very strong measures.

The "rod" in the OT spoke of a more severe discipline than just sending a child to his/her room and denying privileges (also see Deut. 21:18-21), and most Bible scholars believe that the Bible teaches very firm measures are required in Scripture in some cases.  One should see what W. MacDonald says in the Believer's Bible Commentary on this.  He shows the need of proper discipline, lest we forget the very strong discipline by God to offenders.


« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 04:19:56 PM by Seriousseeker »
I believe a faithful "child of God" should trust our Savior --the Lord Jesus (which pleases the Father), worship Him and make Him our best Friend;  value "unity of the faith", be non-sectarian and hold fully to Scripture ---declaring "all the counsel of God" and be "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" as the Apostle Paul counseled the saints.  Let us look up always (note John 14).

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Re: Bible Verses On Spanking Children
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2011, 04:01:07 PM »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Bible Verses On Spanking Children
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2011, 12:43:24 PM »
Quote
Proverbs 23:13
Don't fail to discipline your children. They won't die if you spank them.
New Living Translation (©2007)
I have always wondered about this one.  The NASB 95 puts it this way:

13 Do not hold back discipline from the child,
Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die.

There have been kids killed by spanking. I know I was spanked to the edge of unconsciousness several times during kindergarden and 1st grade.

Maybe it was because dad used a leather belt instead of a rod?

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Re: Bible Verses On Spanking Children
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2011, 12:43:24 PM »

Offline fcadcock

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Re: Bible Verses On Spanking Children
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2011, 03:18:43 PM »
Quote
Proverbs 23:13
Don't fail to discipline your children. They won't die if you spank them.
New Living Translation (©2007)
I have always wondered about this one.  The NASB 95 puts it this way:

13 Do not hold back discipline from the child,
Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die.

There have been kids killed by spanking. I know I was spanked to the edge of unconsciousness several times during kindergarden and 1st grade.

Maybe it was because dad used a leather belt instead of a rod?

Are you entirely sure that your memory of this event is accurate?  If so, your father was abusing you, not spanking you...  While there are lots of nerves in the buttocks, it is virtually impossible to strike someone so hard there to cause unconsciousness.

And again, nobody has been killed by spanking.  If death results from beating, it's not a spanking, it's abuse and it's a crime!  Heck, if bleeding or injury results from a spanking it's over the line.  The point of spanking is pain, not injury...  This ain't sparta...
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Re: Bible Verses On Spanking Children
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2011, 03:18:43 PM »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Bible Verses On Spanking Children
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2011, 05:08:04 AM »
Poh tay toe  Puh tah to.

I say it was a spanking as would he. But it was with a belt and left scars (so my wife told me after we got married)

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Re: Bible Verses On Spanking Children
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2011, 05:08:04 AM »



Offline Janice

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Re: Bible Verses On Spanking Children
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2012, 06:53:48 PM »
A "rod" is a shepherd's tool for keeping the sheep herded, and to gently hook onto a sheep that is wandering too far. It was used as a guide, not as a tool for punishment or hitting your children with. Proverbs 13:24 actually means that if you do not put limits on your children and guide them in the direction they need to go, you are spoiling them.

Discipline nowhere in the Bible means to physically hit your children. God disciplines his children, but he doesn't come down here and whip us on the hiney. He uses circumstances, people, our own conscience and his word to guide us in the way we should go.

There is a huge difference between disciplining and scourging. The latter is the spanking or beating, and it breaks/conquers the human will/spirit. Do you want to break and conquer your children, or do you want to build them up so they learn self-discipline as they get older?

Rather than hitting your children, it is always best to use the opportunity to teach a lesson instead. There are also other ways of discipline - natural and logical consequences. If your child won't put on the seat belt, the next time you plan on taking them somewhere fun, they will not be allowed to go. Or if your child refuses to wear their jacket when it is below freezing, they will get cold and do not give into the temptation to warm them up. They will get cold enough that the next time, they will wear their coat.

Most of the time, there are alternatives to hitting your children. We want to discipline, not scourge.

Offline yungmumma

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Re: Bible Verses On Spanking Children
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2012, 10:22:15 AM »
Quote
Proverbs 23:13
Don't fail to discipline your children. They won't die if you spank them.
New Living Translation (©2007)
I have always wondered about this one.  The NASB 95 puts it this way:

13 Do not hold back discipline from the child,
Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die.

There have been kids killed by spanking. I know I was spanked to the edge of unconsciousness several times during kindergarden and 1st grade.

Maybe it was because dad used a leather belt instead of a rod?

Are you entirely sure that your memory of this event is accurate?  If so, your father was abusing you, not spanking you...  While there are lots of nerves in the buttocks, it is virtually impossible to strike someone so hard there to cause unconsciousness.

And again, nobody has been killed by spanking.  If death results from beating, it's not a spanking, it's abuse and it's a crime!  Heck, if bleeding or injury results from a spanking it's over the line.  The point of spanking is pain, not injury...  This ain't sparta...

the strike itself could not cause unconsciousness, but the pain from it could... believe me, the belt could hurt that much, especially if it is out of anger instead of love

Offline chosenone

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Re: Bible Verses On Spanking Children
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2012, 08:39:17 AM »
A "rod" is a shepherd's tool for keeping the sheep herded, and to gently hook onto a sheep that is wandering too far. It was used as a guide, not as a tool for punishment or hitting your children with. Proverbs 13:24 actually means that if you do not put limits on your children and guide them in the direction they need to go, you are spoiling them.

Discipline nowhere in the Bible means to physically hit your children. God disciplines his children, but he doesn't come down here and whip us on the hiney. He uses circumstances, people, our own conscience and his word to guide us in the way we should go.

There is a huge difference between disciplining and scourging. The latter is the spanking or beating, and it breaks/conquers the human will/spirit. Do you want to break and conquer your children, or do you want to build them up so they learn self-discipline as they get older?

Rather than hitting your children, it is always best to use the opportunity to teach a lesson instead. There are also other ways of discipline - natural and logical consequences. If your child won't put on the seat belt, the next time you plan on taking them somewhere fun, they will not be allowed to go. Or if your child refuses to wear their jacket when it is below freezing, they will get cold and do not give into the temptation to warm them up. They will get cold enough that the next time, they will wear their coat.

Most of the time, there are alternatives to hitting your children. We want to discipline, not scourge.
 

 AMEN, a brilliant, wise and insightful post, and excactly what I believe God wants us to do. Consistancy, consequenses to bad behaviour, and clear guidelines are what children need, not physical punishment. My husband was beaten with a belt by his mother. It makes my blood run cold to even think about it. He was a very sensitive little boy, and it did scar him.
The shepherds rod was not used for beating the sheep as you say, but for guiding and leading them the right way. Good discipline does not have to mean making child obey out of fear. 
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Offline Voluntary Joe

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Re: Bible Verses On Spanking Children
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2012, 10:28:32 AM »
We always want to avoid putting our words in place of God's words. Literal translations never use spank, and to my knowledge never even reference physically hitting. (If there is a literal translation of physically hitting children please provide it. The last thing I want is to be in error.) Violence is a language, children pick up everything they experience through their senses. The contradiction of being told hitting is wrong and being hit is mentally destructive. Children who are hit have been shown to have visible and physical changes in the brain as opposed to children who are not hit. Statistics show that children who have more remembered incidents of being hit are proportionally more likely to abuse drugs or alcohol and commit violent crimes.

The Bible does say in Ephesians 6:4
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord."

The verses which instruct discipline are doing just that, instructing discipline. There are many ways to instruct children through peaceful parenting. People who claim that children are unreasonable have obviously never tried to reason with a child.

It's important to remember God speaks truth, truth doesn't speak God. When we discover truths our understanding of God's Word increases. When we discovered that the sun moves through the galaxy on a circuit then Psalm 19:6 became more clear
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Its rising is from one end of the heavens, And its circuit to the other end of them; And there is nothing hidden from its heat." So because we know that hitting children has negative effects on their mental development we can make conclusions about God's Word which will allow us to understand it better than we did before.

A very overlooked parenting tool is to place standards on the relationship with your child. Standards which are reciprocal which you both can invoke. By explaining the reasons for certain 'rules' and by getting your children to agree to those rules then those are things you can invoke when they break those rules. Remember standards are universal so you must also be willing to hold yourself to the same standards if you break your agreements as well. This shows and teaches mutual respect because it allows the child to invoke a standard on his behalf just as much as you invoke the standards on your behalf. Also any rule changes show always be discussed before the change in standard. Emphasizing restitution over retribution is always more effect in changing behavior. Retribution of any kind should only be a last resort. However in the event that retribution is necessary hitting should never be an option. As an example let's say you are bringing your child somewhere fun and you have a time table for needing to leave, that needs to be explained before you agree to go, if the child doesn't see the time constraint as worth the trip then you don't need to go, but by giving him the option then if he agrees to the time constraint, his agreement is something you can invoke if you have trouble getting him to leave when it's time. By having standards with our children we lower the risk of teaching our children contradictions. The parent-child relationship is the only relationship in the world which one party has no option of disassociation. Because the development of the mind is so vital to behavior and cognitive reasoning ability it's imperative that parents avoid as much as possible placing contradictions into our children's minds.

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Re: Bible Verses On Spanking Children
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2012, 10:28:32 AM »

Offline FollowHisGrace

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Re: Bible Verses On Spanking Children
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2012, 07:24:49 AM »
Tennman, thank you for these verses.  My husband and I both believe in spanking and have tried to do much to dispell some of the "stigma" surrounding it.

First off, spanking should be done in love and absolutely not out of anger.  If the child is permanently scarred or taken to within a hairs-breath of unconsciousness, then it is not spanking. . . it is beating.  Spanking stings momentarily, but eases within a few moments.  Spanking is the means to get a child's attention focused on you.  What follows should be a Christ centered discussion on why the offense is punishable, including how you love the child and don't want to see them hurt.  I believe that a momentary sting to the child's rear (and ego) is better than losing that child when they disobey and wander out into the street in front of a car.  And let's all be honest, who of us, even as adults, haven't benefitted from having our egos a little bruised.  It builds wisdom.  If a spanking is causing a child emotional distress, then it is most likely NOT being done in what would be considered a loving, Godly manner.

I, myself, have suffered from the stealthy backhand to the face, with no immediate explanation.  Punishment dispensed out of anger, rather than out of love (over a bad test score).  I don't perceive that as having affected me in a negative way.  If anything, it has reinforced in me how a child should be disciplined.

As for translations, I feel that we need to visit the original Hebrew or Aramaic text to get an accurate translation on what the Bible says about physical discipline.  The Bible was originally translated from Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, right?  When you look up Proverbs 13:24 in the Strong's Concordance, we find that "rod" is assigned number H7626.  When you look up the original Hebrew meaning of H7626, you get the following: 

1) rod, staff, branch, offshoot, club, sceptre, tribe

a) rod, staff

b) shaft (of spear, dart)

c) club (of shepherd's implement)

d) truncheon, sceptre (mark of authority)

e) clan, tribe

Except for "clan/tribe", all of it refers to an item that you would strike with.  But, as our pastor says, a verse taken out of context is a pre-text.  So, look at some of the other words in the verse.  The word spareth (H2820) means just that; to spare of restrain.  The word hateth (H8130) means just that; to hate.  The word son (H1121) means son or child.  The word chasteneth (H4148) means just as it says; to chasten.  It's the word betimes (H7836) that pulls this together.  Betimes means to seek.  Doesn't make sense in the verse?  Put it into Hebrew:  "He who loves his son seeks chastisement for him".

Now, let's pull from our own English dictionary.  Webster's defines chastise as "to inflict punishment on (as by whipping); to censure severely".

I don't mean to offend anyone with this post, however, what I have laid forth is not just my own opinion.  It is solid fact from the original text of the Bible and our own English language.  The Hebrew language is not a figurative language.  Words have specific meanings, depending on what tense they are written in.  In this case, Proverbs 13:24 can not be refuted.

Offline Janice

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Re: Bible Verses On Spanking Children
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2012, 08:24:05 AM »
Posts like this totally break my heart. First, I do not believe you can hit anyone when you are in the spirit if tenderness, compassion, kindness, goodness, patience, peace, or faithfulness of God (Spirit). Second, after hitting a child, how do you possibly expect that child to sit and listen to a discussion that is Christ-centred? It goes against everything that Jesus stands for, and no child is going to think hitting is loving. Jesus did not come to punish the world but to save the world from [eternal] punishment. The message a child gets is that God is a God of punishment rather than a God of salvation. Third, as I stated before, discipline is not the same thing as scourging. God disciplines. He does not scourge.

Fourth, all of those Hebrew definitions you provided for “rod

Offline FollowHisGrace

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Re: Bible Verses On Spanking Children
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2012, 09:02:47 AM »
As I stated, I do not mean to offend.  I am also not referring to hitting.  To me, hitting is forceful. . . spanking is a swat.  As for my reference. . . www.blueletterbible.com, which includes the Strong's.  Again, you can't just take one word and base it all on that.  You have to take all of the words together.  And rod does have more than one definition.  Club is one of them.  A shepherd's instrument to beat.  Also, I agree that 4148 has that definition, according to Strong's.  I used the Webster Dictionary definition of chastise to further expand on the Strong's.  Our own language.  But I'm not here to argue.  I am only defending the position of those who do decide to spank and why we feel the way we do about spanking.

I suppose what upsets me, is the back and forth argument that goes along with this topic.  Everyone is going to have their own opinion on it and I feel that they need to do what God has laid upon their heart.  Not shove it down the throats of those around them.  You don't want me telling you that you must spank your children, just as I don't want you telling me that I can not do what I feel is Biblically sound.  On that, I believe we must agree to disagree.  Not demonize each other for not sharing the same view point.

I can only speak from my own experience with my own children.  They are only spanked for a handful of things.  Intentional disobedience.  Lying.  Doing something that could harm them or another person.  My children do sit and listen. . . and participate in. . . a discussion that is Christ centered after a spanking.  Remember that Christ himself said that he did not come to bring peace, but a double edged sword.  God is love, but God is also just.  He destroyed nations for disobedience.  I am not destroying my children.

I have much respect for parents that do not spank their children.  I know several Christians who did not spank and have well adjusted, well behaved children.  I know several Christians who did not spank who have "problem" children.  I know several Christians who did spank and have well adjusted, well behaved children.  I know several Christians who did spank and have "problem" children.  It all comes down to balance.  Look at the lives of the family.  Is there balance in all things, not just discipline?  God is more than love.  Because I spank my children does not mean that I do not show them God's love!  I am offended that anyone would think that!  I have a seven year old who has already professed her salvation through Christ.

Yes, some who spank go overboard and not all parents spank based on Biblical principle.  There is abuse done in the name of spanking.  But are you going to define us all by those standards?

Offline hwyangel

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Re: Bible Verses On Spanking Children
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2012, 08:26:39 PM »
In my opinion it is worse to send your child to their room to "think about it" . Because you know they are not thinking about "it", they are thinking about how much you don't love them or stewing in their anger. And Dr Spock recanted his position on spanking. This is why his books are no longer published or sold.
 After instructing and reaffirming your child, a spanking is payment. It teaches the child about sowing and reaping. It teaches the child that decisions have consequences. And by loving your child before and after, you can guard your child's heart against fearing a loss of acceptance based on behavior. Spanking is guarding your child's heart from permanent guilt and shame

Offline Janice

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Re: Bible Verses On Spanking Children
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2012, 07:03:32 AM »
A shepherd's rod was never used to beat the sheep. It was used to beat predators preying on the sheep.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Bible Verses On Spanking Children
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2012, 07:49:48 AM »
A shepherd's rod was never used to beat the sheep. It was used to beat predators preying on the sheep.
Actually 'shepherd' and 'rod' never appear together in the OT. There is no indication that shepherds ever carried 'rods.' There is however indication that they had staves.  The rod was a device of punishment and the staff was a walking stick to aid steep climbs. 

David said in Ps 23 that God's rod (discipline) and staff (support) comforted him.