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Offline .:Lily:.

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10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« on: Mon Aug 26, 2013 - 03:08:39 »


KIMBERLY DANIELS
----------------------


Here are a few practical characteristics of religious spirits and how they can be recognized.

1. Religious spirits have no authority in Jesus Christ. Jesus hated religious spirits. Jesus was not a religious person, and He did things that shook the religious kingdoms of the earth. Acts 19:13–16 tells the story of seven sons of a man named Sceva. They were referred to as “vagabond Jews and exorcists.” In other words, they were religious. The story reveals that they had no power over unclean spirits.

2. Religion steals the youthful joy of young people in serving Jesus; it makes the elders become demonically old. In Matthew 19:14, Jesus forbid His disciples from stopping the little children from coming to Him. I do not believe in an age of spiritual accountability. Everything that has breath must praise and serve the Lord (Ps. 150:6). Children must be raised up in the things of God so that they will not depart.

The Bible only has one account whereby a prophet is called “old.” In the Book of 1 Kings, a man from Judah prophesied against the altar at Bethel. The king ordered that the man from Judah be seized. The king’s arm froze as he pointed to the prophet from Judah, and the king could not pull his arm back to himself. The king asked the man from Judah to pray that his arm would be healed.

He prayed, and the king was healed. Rumors of the authority of the prophet from Judah spread, and he was summoned by an “old prophet.” This prophet was not necessarily old in age but actually washed up. He was spiritually or demonically old! (See 1 Kings 13.)

3. Religion is an anti-evangelism spirit. Matthew 23:15 warns the religious sects of the church that they lose more souls than they win. Their converts become doubly as hellish as them.

4. Religion is antichrist. Religious people (the Pharisees and the Sadducees) killed Jesus.

5. Religious people have no joy and, ultimately, no power! Nehemiah 8:10 declared that the joy of the Lord is our strength. It denotes that the person who lives in the dwelling place of the Lord (the place of joy—in the presence of the Lord there is fullness of joy) is reinforced with power.

6. Religious spirits breed bondage and condemnation and block true liberty. (See Galatians 5:1; Romans 8:1.)

7. Religion creates a form of godliness through regimen and repetition. Second Timothy 3:5 warns us to avoid people with forms of godliness.

8. Religion corrupts and perverts. It promotes an unrealistic standard that cannot be obtained because of the dictates of the flesh. This is why true worshipers worship in spirit and in truth. The law was a schoolmaster that taught us that in and of our fleshly natures, we cannot obey the commandments of God. This is why we were given a new (and better) covenant. The laws of God are now written in our hearts and not on tablets of stone. Trying to live by the dictates of the tablets of stone alone only opens the doors to corruption and perversion through religious spirits of failure. This is why perversion and corruption are multiplied when men attempt to serve God by their own power and by their guidelines. (See Hebrews 8:7–13.)

9. Religion stems from the root of spiritual schizophrenia. One minute the people blessed the name of the Lord and cried, “Hosanna to the Highest!” In another breath they yelled, “Crucify Him!”

10. Religion hinders positive relationships by putting a bad taste in the mouths of unbelievers, taking the fire out of marriages, stopping the flow of God in worship fellowships, and making children hate serving God.

To sum it all up, judgment will start at the house of God. Remember, it was religious spirits that nailed Jesus to the cross. Let us not religiously or repetitively serve God. We must worship Him in spirit and in truth. Selah!





-----------
A sought-after conference speaker, preacher and powerful prayer warrior, Kimberly Daniels pastors Spoken Word Ministries in Jacksonville, Fla., and Fort Lauderdale, Fla., with her husband, Ardell. She is a recently elected city councilwoman in Jacksonville as well as the author of numerous books, including her book, Spiritual Housekeeping (Charisma House), from which this article is adapted.

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10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« on: Mon Aug 26, 2013 - 03:08:39 »

HRoberson

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #1 on: Mon Aug 26, 2013 - 14:26:19 »
Kimberly confuses a religious spirit, with religion. If she wants to define religious spirit as something exclusivistic and dry for purposes of her discussion, that's one thing. However, in her list she confuses that sort of spirit with religion.

To the extent that she has not consistently separated the two, her ten signs are questionable.

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #1 on: Mon Aug 26, 2013 - 14:26:19 »

Offline .:Lily:.

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #2 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 02:14:27 »
Kimberly confuses a religious spirit, with religion. If she wants to define religious spirit as something exclusivistic and dry for purposes of her discussion, that's one thing. However, in her list she confuses that sort of spirit with religion.

To the extent that she has not consistently separated the two, her ten signs are questionable.

I do not see any confusion. Jesus hates sin AND religion.

Offline DaveW

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #3 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 06:28:14 »
Kimberly confuses a religious spirit, with religion.

It is common in certain circles, esp the Word of Faith group, to attribute anything like that to a demonic entity.

All that shows is a lack of true understanding and discernment.

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #3 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 06:28:14 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #4 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 06:31:02 »
I do not see any confusion. Jesus hates sin AND religion.

I disagree. Biblically "religion" is defined by James:

James 1:27  Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

Why would Our Lord hate that?

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #4 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 06:31:02 »



Offline .:Lily:.

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #5 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 07:09:22 »
Kimberly confuses a religious spirit, with religion.


It is common in certain circles, esp the Word of Faith group, to attribute anything like that to a demonic entity.

All that shows is a lack of true understanding and discernment.


Well I do not really know the writer. Is she a WoF? I tend not to trust the Word of faith preachers because only few actually teach the word of God, and the rest are heretics, but I really do not see anything wrong here.





Quote

I disagree. Biblically "religion" is defined by James:

James 1:27  Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

Why would Our Lord hate that?




Sorry..

I'm aware of James 1:27 but he is not defining a religion. James 1:27 is Christianity not a religion.

Here maybe this will help:


Jesus Has Two Enemies: Sin and Religion Small | Large


Offline DaveW

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #6 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 07:28:50 »
Quote
I'm aware of James 1:27 but he is not defining a religion. James 1:27 is Christianity not a religion.

Then why did James use the term "religion?"

Lily - I have heard that all before and it is NOT what the bible calls "religion."

Use some other term because James uses that word very differently. I go with how it is used in the Word. 

Find me one instance where the evils described in either your article or that video is called religion in the bible.  Indeed, Paul comes the closest but couches the term in the modifier "self-made" meaning it was not real religion:  (kind of like the difference between self-righteousness and true righteousness)

Colossians 2:23  These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

Offline .:Lily:.

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #7 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 09:02:22 »
Quote
I'm aware of James 1:27 but he is not defining a religion. James 1:27 is Christianity not a religion.

Then why did James use the term "religion?"

Lily - I have heard that all before and it is NOT what the bible calls "religion."

Use some other term because James uses that word very differently. I go with how it is used in the Word. 

Find me one instance where the evils described in either your article or that video is called religion in the bible.  Indeed, Paul comes the closest but couches the term in the modifier "self-made" meaning it was not real religion:  (kind of like the difference between self-righteousness and true righteousness)

Colossians 2:23  These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

Quote
Then why did James use the term "religion?"

I guess because he was talking to "religious" people?

He also used the term religion "threskeia" in a negative way in James 1:26 as "religion is useless."

The term "Religion" should not be used as a synonym for Christianity because it can be evil. Religion means "to bind up." Jesus came to set us free and not to bind us up in religious rules or rituals. I do not want any of that.  ::frown::



Quote
Find me one instance where the evils described in either your article or that video is called religion in the bible.  Indeed, Paul comes the closest but couches the term in the modifier "self-made" meaning it was not real religion:  (kind of like the difference between self-righteousness and true righteousness)



hmm.. True righteousness?! lol ...what the heck is that?

This is my righteousness nothing but the blood of Jesus.



Quote
Find me one instance where the evils described in either your article or that video is called religion in the bible.

Acts 17:22-23
New King James Version (NKJV)
Addressing the Areopagus

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you.

Offline DaveW

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #8 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 09:30:32 »
Lily - you are making a huge assumption on that Acts 17 statement that it lines up with the evils you have listed.  Paul is NOT condemning them at all there.

You have a negative connotation with the word "religion" that is counter productive. I suggest you lose it.

There is a related word that may better describe those evils: religiosity.

Offline DaveW

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #9 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 09:36:00 »
Quote
Quote
(kind of like the difference between self-righteousness and true righteousness)
hmm.. True righteousness?! lol ...what the heck is that?

Righteousness = right relationship.  (Derek Prince 1974)

Self righteousness is trying to make our selves right with God thru our own self-effort.  Isa 64 says it is "filthy rags." The Hebrew is more descriptive: used menstrual rags.

True righteousness (relationship) is God extending to us His fellowship per the sacrifice of Yeshua/Jesus in the New Covenant. It is not from our own works. (religiosity) But believing in Him and being obedient (even to the point of taking care of widows and orphans) is true religion and is a good thing.

HRoberson

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #10 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 09:39:47 »
Kimberly confuses a religious spirit, with religion. If she wants to define religious spirit as something exclusivistic and dry for purposes of her discussion, that's one thing. However, in her list she confuses that sort of spirit with religion.

To the extent that she has not consistently separated the two, her ten signs are questionable.

I do not see any confusion. Jesus hates sin AND religion.
Well, no He doesn't. Does He not tell the Jews that they should have tithed correctly? Does He not attempt to cleanse the Temple? Does He not say to do what the Jewish leaders tell you? Does He not pay the Temple Tax? Does He not keep the Passover?
Do not Paul, Peter, James, and the Hebrew writer gives us instructions about appropriate religious behavior?

In any event, Kimberly shifts in her "signs" between "religious spirit," and "religion." Whether you think Jesus hates both or not, the two have distinct meanings and Kimberly does not maintain that difference. As a result, her writing is undisciplined, poorly edited, and is therefore inconsistent in its message.


Offline Catholica

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #11 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 11:15:30 »

KIMBERLY DANIELS
----------------------

Here are a few practical characteristics of religious spirits and how they can be recognized.

1. Religious spirits have no authority in Jesus Christ. Jesus hated religious spirits. Jesus was not a religious person, and He did things that shook the religious kingdoms of the earth. Acts 19:13–16 tells the story of seven sons of a man named Sceva. They were referred to as “vagabond Jews and exorcists.” In other words, they were religious. The story reveals that they had no power over unclean spirits.

If a religious spirit is an evil spirit, then it of course has no authority.  But people are people and spirits are spirits.  God works through his angels and religious people even.  He gave his authority to men.

Jesus was a very religious person.  He was so religious that he kept all the precepts of the Jewish religion.  That didn't stop him from also being good and being God.  Nor does religion itself stop a person from the same. 

A person who is a vagabond is someone who isn't serving anyone by doing what they are doing.  They just roam about doing what they want.  In that sense, the vagabond Jewish exorcists were operating by no one's authority, Jewish or Christian.  That doesn't mean that they were "religious".  Nor did it mean that they had religious spirits.  They had no power because they had no faith in God, not because of how religious they were.

2. Religion steals the youthful joy of young people in serving Jesus; it makes the elders become demonically old. In Matthew 19:14, Jesus forbid His disciples from stopping the little children from coming to Him. I do not believe in an age of spiritual accountability. Everything that has breath must praise and serve the Lord (Ps. 150:6). Children must be raised up in the things of God so that they will not depart.

The Bible only has one account whereby a prophet is called “old.” In the Book of 1 Kings, a man from Judah prophesied against the altar at Bethel. The king ordered that the man from Judah be seized. The king’s arm froze as he pointed to the prophet from Judah, and the king could not pull his arm back to himself. The king asked the man from Judah to pray that his arm would be healed.

He prayed, and the king was healed. Rumors of the authority of the prophet from Judah spread, and he was summoned by an “old prophet.” This prophet was not necessarily old in age but actually washed up. He was spiritually or demonically old! (See 1 Kings 13.)

"Religion steals the youthful joy of young people" is nonsense, unsubstantiated, and in conflict with reality.  Witness the 3 million young people who were exuberant in the love of God who gathered this year on Copacabana beach to attend mass on World Youth Day:



There are lots more pictures of joyful youth from every World Youth Day every year. 

As for the "demonically old" person, most rational people can see very, very good, loving men who are very religious not becoming "demonically old".  Simply witness the love and humility and goodness that flow from Pope Francis.  The interpretation she gives of this verse is so completely and totally reading her own meaning into it its not even worth addressing. 

3. Religion is an anti-evangelism spirit. Matthew 23:15 warns the religious sects of the church that they lose more souls than they win. Their converts become doubly as hellish as them.

Matthew 23:15 speaks to the pharisees and what they were doing.  The pharisees added a ton to the law which was a great burden to them.  Their converts had more zeal for the law than they did and then added that burden to other people in their zeal.  God is concerned with the heart as well as the practice.  The heart part is what the pharisees didn't get.  Not all religions are like Pharasaical Judaism.

4. Religion is antichrist. Religious people (the Pharisees and the Sadducees) killed Jesus.

We "recrucify" Jesus every time we fall away.  Hebrews 6:6.  That doesn't make us antichrist.  That defies the biblical definition of antichrist as well.

5. Religious people have no joy and, ultimately, no power! Nehemiah 8:10 declared that the joy of the Lord is our strength. It denotes that the person who lives in the dwelling place of the Lord (the place of joy—in the presence of the Lord there is fullness of joy) is reinforced with power.

Read the lives of the saints, and tell me that they had no joy.  Preposterous.

6. Religious spirits breed bondage and condemnation and block true liberty. (See Galatians 5:1; Romans 8:1.)

Religion, however, keeps people unstained by the world, (James 1:27) and is a support against sin which is the real thing that leads into bondage and blocks true freedom.

7. Religion creates a form of godliness through regimen and repetition. Second Timothy 3:5 warns us to avoid people with forms of godliness.

Actually, 2 Timothy 3:5 warns us to avoid people who make a pretense of religion but deny its power.  That is not the same as rejecting religion.  In fact it is a confirmation that religion has power, and we should avoid people who say it doesn't.

1 But understand this: there will be terrifying times in the last days.
2 People will be self-centered and lovers of money, proud, haughty, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, irreligious,
3 callous, implacable, slanderous, licentious, brutal, hating what is good,
4 traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 as they make a pretense of religion but deny its power. Reject them.

8. Religion corrupts and perverts. It promotes an unrealistic standard that cannot be obtained because of the dictates of the flesh. This is why true worshipers worship in spirit and in truth.

A true worshiper who actually reads the New Testament would see that Jesus is actually proclaiming a very unrealistic standard.  We are unable to do this by ourselves, which is why we need all the help we can get by God.  Jesus wants us to be just like him, and many times the NT writers tell us to "be Holy just as our Father in heaven is holy".  That is a high standard. 

People living in the flesh want to lower that standard so that they don't have to strive to live up to it.  But we know in the gospels that we are to "Strive to enter through the narrow gate".

The law was a schoolmaster that taught us that in and of our fleshly natures, we cannot obey the commandments of God. This is why we were given a new (and better) covenant. The laws of God are now written in our hearts and not on tablets of stone. Trying to live by the dictates of the tablets of stone alone only opens the doors to corruption and perversion through religious spirits of failure. This is why perversion and corruption are multiplied when men attempt to serve God by their own power and by their guidelines. (See Hebrews 8:7–13.)

We can obey the commandments of God with God's help.  And to say otherwise is an easy road straight to hell.  The road is hard, and at times we feel like we fail.  Jesus gave us communion with each other to help each other on the way.  He stays with us always, and in a particular way through the sacrament of the Eucharist, helps us to never give up and not succumb to evil religious spirits who are a perversion of true religion.

9. Religion stems from the root of spiritual schizophrenia. One minute the people blessed the name of the Lord and cried, “Hosanna to the Highest!” In another breath they yelled, “Crucify Him!”

Yes, striving to become more holy means that we are hypocrites from time to time.  But not striving to be holy is a sure path to hell.

10. Religion hinders positive relationships by putting a bad taste in the mouths of unbelievers, taking the fire out of marriages, stopping the flow of God in worship fellowships, and making children hate serving God.

Marriages for people who practice my religion are uncommonly strong.  In fact, for people who practice NFP, instead of artificial birth control, have a divorce rate of under 1%.  Unbelievers are at the mercy of God.  The Church is of course a scandal to the world.  If we were not, then we would not be doing our job.  My children love serving God and we are a very religious family.

To sum it all up, judgment will start at the house of God. Remember, it was religious spirits that nailed Jesus to the cross. Let us not religiously or repetitively serve God. We must worship Him in spirit and in truth. Selah!

This woman is seriously wrong.  And being in such grave error isn't going to help her much to worship in truth.

« Last Edit: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 11:19:50 by Catholica »

Offline FireSword

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #12 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 11:27:45 »
I do not see any confusion. Jesus hates sin AND religion.

I disagree. Biblically "religion" is defined by James:

James 1:27  Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

Why would Our Lord hate that?

So religion can be defiled? it shows that religion can be unclean and even demonic. It was demonic voices of religion of confusion that tried to tempt Jesus to get down from the cross.


HRoberson

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #13 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 12:19:14 »
I do not see any confusion. Jesus hates sin AND religion.

I disagree. Biblically "religion" is defined by James:

James 1:27  Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

Why would Our Lord hate that?

So religion can be defiled? it shows that religion can be unclean and even demonic. It was demonic voices of religion of confusion that tried to tempt Jesus to get down from the cross.


The fact that something can be abused does not mean the thing itself is demonic. To claim so is a failure in logic.

Offline Catholica

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #14 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 12:41:15 »
I do not see any confusion. Jesus hates sin AND religion.

I disagree. Biblically "religion" is defined by James:

James 1:27  Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

Why would Our Lord hate that?

So religion can be defiled? it shows that religion can be unclean and even demonic. It was demonic voices of religion of confusion that tried to tempt Jesus to get down from the cross.


The fact that something can be abused does not mean the thing itself is demonic. To claim so is a failure in logic.

Agreed.  Case in point, demons are fallen angels.  That doesn't make all angels demons.

Offline DaveW

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #15 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 12:59:02 »
demons are fallen angels.
While your point is valid - I am not so sure about this statement.

I know it is off topic but in scripture angels are always described as having clearly defined bodies while demons seem to be personalities without bodies.

I take them as a separate class of spiritual being.

And no - there is no scripture to say where they came from.

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #16 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 13:18:40 »
Quote
“If a religious spirit is an evil spirit, then it of course has no authority.  But people are people and spirits are spirits.  God works through his angels and religious people even.  He gave his authority to men.

Jesus was a very religious person.  He was so religious that he kept all the precepts of the Jewish religion.  That didn't stop him from also being good and being God.  Nor does religion itself stop a person from the same. 

A person who is a vagabond is someone who isn't serving anyone by doing what they are doing.  They just roam about doing what they want.  In that sense, the vagabond Jewish exorcists were operating by no one's authority, Jewish or Christian.  That doesn't mean that they were "religious".  Nor did it mean that they had religious spirits.  They had no power because they had no faith in God, not because of how religious they were.”

God does not work through religious people because they do not know Jesus but I'd agree that he may use some of them. Jesus works through born again Christians. You can’t choose to be a Christian and religious at the same time. You have to choose. Jesus said he has done everything to save me and I do not need to do anything because it is HIS grace. Religion said I have to do a list of things to be saved and that is a heresy. Jesus was never a religious person. I found that very disgusting and deceptive that you would say such a thing. All born again Christians have HIS authority. People need to be delivered from religious Spirits. They are in bondage because they follow false traditions and man-made rules.


Quote
"Religion steals the youthful joy of young people" is nonsense, unsubstantiated, and in conflict with reality.  Witness the 3 million young people who were exuberant in the love of God who gathered this year on Copacabana beach to attend mass on World Youth Day:

There are lots more pictures of joyful youth from every World Youth Day every year. 

As for the "demonically old" person, most rational people can see very, very good, loving men who are very religious not becoming "demonically old".  Simply witness the love and humility and goodness that flow from Pope Francis.  The interpretation she gives of this verse is so completely and totally reading her own meaning into it its not even worth addressing. “

Religion steals your joy because religion says you must do a list of things to be accepted and then you realize that you’re a sinner and can’t always do the right thing so then you feel depressed that you can’t be perfect like Jesus or it makes you so proud that you’re better than others. Both ways lead to sin!


Quote
“Matthew 23:15 speaks to the pharisees and what they were doing.  The pharisees added a ton to the law which was a great burden to them.  Their converts had more zeal for the law than they did and then added that burden to other people in their zeal.  God is concerned with the heart as well as the practice.  The heart part is what the pharisees didn't get.  Not all religions are like Pharasaical Judaism.”

You can’t preach the gospel and be religious. Religious people usually care about rituals and traditions. They do not deliver the good news. They deliver their rules and traditions. It is powerless.  They do not witness to others.


Quote
“We "recrucify" Jesus every time we fall away.  Hebrews 6:6.  That doesn't make us antichrist.  That defies the biblical definition of antichrist as well.”

You do not have to worry about that if you’re HIS Child.




Quote
“Read the lives of the saints, and tell me that they had no joy.  Preposterous.”

It is because the saints are never religious.


Quote
“Religion, however, keeps people unstained by the world, (James 1:27) and is a support against sin which is the real thing that leads into bondage and blocks true freedom.”

Religion is a tool of Satan to blind people. It makes you a slave.


Quote
“Actually, 2 Timothy 3:5 warns us to avoid people who make a pretense of religion but deny its power.  That is not the same as rejecting religion.  In fact it is a confirmation that religion has power, and we should avoid people who say it doesn't.”

The real bible I have, the King James bible, does not use the word religion in 2 Timothy 3:5 not sure which bible you’re reading but anyway it does not say religion has power there. If it has power then it is not of God. We have so many religions in the world.


Quote
“A true worshiper who actually reads the New Testament would see that Jesus is actually proclaiming a very unrealistic standard.  We are unable to do this by ourselves, which is why we need all the help we can get by God.  Jesus wants us to be just like him, and many times the NT writers tell us to "be Holy just as our Father in heaven is holy".  That is a high standard. 

People living in the flesh want to lower that standard so that they don't have to strive to live up to it.  But we know in the gospels that we are to "Strive to enter through the narrow gate".”

Yes we have to walk in holiness because God is Holy. God empowers us to walk in the Spirit. We are predestined to be holy. Sanctification is a process. It does not save me. I’m already perfect in Christ. He washed ALL of my sins.
 
Quote
“We can obey the commandments of God with God's help.  And to say otherwise is an easy road straight to hell.  The road is hard, and at times we feel like we fail.  Jesus gave us communion with each other to help each other on the way.  He stays with us always, and in a particular way through the sacrament of the Eucharist, helps us to never give up and not succumb to evil religious spirits who are a perversion of true religion.”

I’m saved to serve him. Religious people claim you must obey to be saved which is a lie. Even if I break ALL commandments in this book, I will not fall away from grace. There are no such things as sacraments. The word of God is more important to me than a ritual. The Eucharist cannot be Christ’s blood. Sorry if it offends you but that is the truth. You’re deceived. 


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“Yes, striving to become more holy means that we are hypocrites from time to time.  But not striving to be holy is a sure path to hell.”

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here.


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“This woman is seriously wrong.  And being in such grave error isn't going to help her much to worship in truth.”

but I do not see why she is wrong. I have no religion. I have Christ living in me.

Offline DaveW

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #17 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 13:44:05 »
Lily you keep using the WRONG definition of "religion."

Offline FireSword

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #18 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 14:05:54 »
I do not see any confusion. Jesus hates sin AND religion.

I disagree. Biblically "religion" is defined by James:

James 1:27  Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

Why would Our Lord hate that?

So religion can be defiled? it shows that religion can be unclean and even demonic. It was demonic voices of religion of confusion that tried to tempt Jesus to get down from the cross.


The fact that something can be abused does not mean the thing itself is demonic. To claim so is a failure in logic.

I mean demonized. A person can be demonized but they are not demons. The Pharisees operated under a religious spirit.


Offline .:Lily:.

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #19 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 23:41:29 »
Kimberly confuses a religious spirit, with religion. If she wants to define religious spirit as something exclusivistic and dry for purposes of her discussion, that's one thing. However, in her list she confuses that sort of spirit with religion.

To the extent that she has not consistently separated the two, her ten signs are questionable.

I do not see any confusion. Jesus hates sin AND religion.
Well, no He doesn't. Does He not tell the Jews that they should have tithed correctly? Does He not attempt to cleanse the Temple? Does He not say to do what the Jewish leaders tell you? Does He not pay the Temple Tax? Does He not keep the Passover?
Do not Paul, Peter, James, and the Hebrew writer gives us instructions about appropriate religious behavior?

In any event, Kimberly shifts in her "signs" between "religious spirit," and "religion." Whether you think Jesus hates both or not, the two have distinct meanings and Kimberly does not maintain that difference. As a result, her writing is undisciplined, poorly edited, and is therefore inconsistent in its message.

God wants us to live in holiness. Christians hate sin because they are already in Christ. But that does not mean we will be sinless. The bible says everything that does not come from faith is a sin. Religion says I need to do a list of things (usually not even in the bible) TO BE SAVED and they are going to force me to DO them because they assume I do NOT want to do them! The bible says I’ll have NEW desires and NEW mind, because God works through me and in me and that is why I’ll walk in the Spirit and obey him. My Spirit is ALIVE and I will never continue sinning. Praise Jesus. Christianity is not a religion. Jesus was not religious at all. He hated religion. Religion is unbelief. The Holy Spirit leads me to live in holiness and obedience to the word of God. Religion leads me to sin.

I feel very sad that some Christians defend religion. Before I converted to Christianity, I looked at it as just another religion but I was corrected that Jesus is everlasting life. It is a personal relationship.  It was probably the first thing I learned that Christianity is not religion. Now you’re telling me Christianity is just a religion? That is a huge mistake…. I may understand why would Catholics defend religion because Catholicism is a religion......that but why would some of you so called protestants come here and preach to me that religion is what I need? Sorry. I need Jesus and more of Jesus not religion, rituals and list of DO this and do NOT do that.... God delivered me from paying too much attention to rituals and traditions when i was in an established church. I did not learn much about Christ there....so much traditions..... I do not think God wants me to practice a religion again. 
« Last Edit: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 23:44:21 by .:Lily:. »

Offline DaveW

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #20 on: Wed Aug 28, 2013 - 05:12:08 »
Quote
Religion says I need to do a list of things (usually not even in the bible) TO BE SAVED and they are going to force me to DO them because they assume I do NOT want to do them!

That is NOT "religion." As long as you keep putting this out there I will keep telling you that you are using the wrong definition.

What you are doing is the equivalent of saying the Westboro group is the definition of what a Baptist is.

Offline Catholica

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #21 on: Wed Aug 28, 2013 - 09:03:46 »
God does not work through religious people because they do not know Jesus but I'd agree that he may use some of them. Jesus works through born again Christians. You can’t choose to be a Christian and religious at the same time. You have to choose. Jesus said he has done everything to save me and I do not need to do anything because it is HIS grace. Religion said I have to do a list of things to be saved and that is a heresy. Jesus was never a religious person. I found that very disgusting and deceptive that you would say such a thing. All born again Christians have HIS authority. People need to be delivered from religious Spirits. They are in bondage because they follow false traditions and man-made rules.

Jesus followed the tenets of the religion that God himself created, so let me get this straight: with that thought in mind, people who obey the tenets of a religion are: a) religious or b) not religious?

Also was there a time in your life when you considered yourself to not be saved?  Are you saved now?  Did Jesus die on the cross for you during that time?  Or what happened that suddenly made you saved?

Religion steals your joy because religion says you must do a list of things to be accepted and then you realize that you’re a sinner and can’t always do the right thing so then you feel depressed that you can’t be perfect like Jesus or it makes you so proud that you’re better than others. Both ways lead to sin!

Is rejecting religion on a list of things that a person needs to do to be "accepted", in your view? 

Was Jesus promoting religion when he said "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."?  Was Jesus trying to steal people's joy and make them feel depressed?  Which is more like what Jesus taught, a religion which encourages us to "be perfect" or one that says that trying to be perfect should be rejected because it "steals your joy"?

Being prideful and thinking one is better than others has a remedy, and it is the sacrament of confession.  Perhaps Protestants have this problem more than faithful Catholics because they rejected that beautiful sacrament.

You can’t preach the gospel and be religious. Religious people usually care about rituals and traditions. They do not deliver the good news. They deliver their rules and traditions. It is powerless.  They do not witness to others.

In your opinion. 

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“We "recrucify" Jesus every time we fall away.  Hebrews 6:6.  That doesn't make us antichrist.  That defies the biblical definition of antichrist as well.”

You do not have to worry about that if you’re HIS Child.

On the contrary, one cannot fall away unless he is first HIS child.

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“Read the lives of the saints, and tell me that they had no joy.  Preposterous.”

It is because the saints are never religious.

All the saints who I read, who all are filled with a joy beyond understanding, are very loyal followers of their religion.  St. Catherine of Siena, your own favorite whipping girl for all that is wrong with religion, suffered terribly in her life, and she did it all with joy.

SAINT CATHERINE OF SIENA VIRGIN (d. 1380)

Reality doesn't match your beliefs.  Apparently that isn't a problem for you?

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“Religion, however, keeps people unstained by the world, (James 1:27) and is a support against sin which is the real thing that leads into bondage and blocks true freedom.”

Religion is a tool of Satan to blind people. It makes you a slave.

That's not what the Bible says.  Apparently that isn't a problem for you.

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“Actually, 2 Timothy 3:5 warns us to avoid people who make a pretense of religion but deny its power.  That is not the same as rejecting religion.  In fact it is a confirmation that religion has power, and we should avoid people who say it doesn't.”

The real bible I have, the King James bible, does not use the word religion in 2 Timothy 3:5 not sure which bible you’re reading but anyway it does not say religion has power there. If it has power then it is not of God. We have so many religions in the world.

Your friend, Kimberly Daniels, seems to think that 2 Timothy 3:5 is about religion in the article you cut and pasted:

Quote
7. Religion creates a form of godliness through regimen and repetition. Second Timothy 3:5 warns us to avoid people with forms of godliness.

Was biblical Judaism, which God created, a "form of godliness" with "regimen and repetition"?  If you think not, then you haven't read the Torah.  Just because something has regimen and repetition doesn't make it a false form of godliness.

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“A true worshiper who actually reads the New Testament would see that Jesus is actually proclaiming a very unrealistic standard.  We are unable to do this by ourselves, which is why we need all the help we can get by God.  Jesus wants us to be just like him, and many times the NT writers tell us to "be Holy just as our Father in heaven is holy".  That is a high standard. 

People living in the flesh want to lower that standard so that they don't have to strive to live up to it.  But we know in the gospels that we are to "Strive to enter through the narrow gate".”

Yes we have to walk in holiness because God is Holy. God empowers us to walk in the Spirit. We are predestined to be holy. Sanctification is a process. It does not save me. I’m already perfect in Christ. He washed ALL of my sins.

If you were already perfect, then you wouldn't need to be sanctified.  People are forgiven of sins by Christ, but that is not the same thing as being perfect.  How can you not see this?  Am I blind to think that someone who needs sanctification is not perfect?  Is becoming more perfect possible?  That defies the definition of "perfect".

per·fect
adjective
adjective: perfect
ˈpərfikt

    1. having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.
 
Quote
“We can obey the commandments of God with God's help.  And to say otherwise is an easy road straight to hell.  The road is hard, and at times we feel like we fail.  Jesus gave us communion with each other to help each other on the way.  He stays with us always, and in a particular way through the sacrament of the Eucharist, helps us to never give up and not succumb to evil religious spirits who are a perversion of true religion.”

I’m saved to serve him. Religious people claim you must obey to be saved which is a lie.

What you are saying is the lie.  Here is the "real" KJV Bible to demonstrate:

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Even if I break ALL commandments in this book, I will not fall away from grace.

Another lie.  If you do so, you will be cut off from the true vine.

John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

Here Jesus says that if you keep his commandments AS he has kept his Father's commandments, you abide in his love, and if you do not abide in him, you are case forth and thrown into the fire and burned.

There are no such things as sacraments. The word of God is more important to me than a ritual. The Eucharist cannot be Christ’s blood. Sorry if it offends you but that is the truth. You’re deceived.

So how do we eat Christ's flesh and drink Christ's blood as commanded in John 6?  The answer is in Luke 22:19-20:

19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

This cup IS the new testament.  You haven't comprehended the new testament unless you have experienced the Eucharist with faith.  The Eucharist IS the new testament.

More evidence, Matthew 26:

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

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“Yes, striving to become more holy means that we are hypocrites from time to time.  But not striving to be holy is a sure path to hell.”

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here.

That's probably because you deleted the context in which I was replying.  Your friend Kimberly said:

Quote
9. Religion stems from the root of spiritual schizophrenia. One minute the people blessed the name of the Lord and cried, “Hosanna to the Highest!” In another breath they yelled, “Crucify Him!”

Striving to be holy, which Jesus commands, means that at one time we are glorifying God, and at another we are sinning.  Do you believe that Jesus died for our sins?  So because YOU sinned, Jesus died.  Every time you sin, are you thankful that Jesus was crucified for your sins?  Are you not also very thankful that people did yell "crucify him"?  Would you say that they shouldn't have yelled "crucify him?"  If they hadn't, you wouldn't be saved.  In fact, it would be best for you, if you had been there, to be someone encouraging others to yell "crucify him!" Kimberly seems to think this is "spiritual schizophrenia" and attributes this to religion.  Well, you should be thankful for religion then! 

As an aside, Kimberly should look up the definition of schizophrenia.  What she means is "multiple personality disorder".
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 28, 2013 - 12:41:06 by Catholica »

HRoberson

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #22 on: Wed Aug 28, 2013 - 12:15:44 »

God wants us to live in holiness.
Yes He does.
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Christians hate sin because they are already in Christ. But that does not mean we will be sinless.
So far, so good.
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The bible says everything that does not come from faith is a sin. -
Well it does say that; I'm not at all sure that you understand it. I like tennis, but I don't know that God likes tennis. Am I sinning if I play tennis?
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Religion says I need to do a list of things (usually not even in the bible) TO BE SAVED
Actually, the Bible has a multi-item short list. I don't know if that constitutes a "list of things."
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and they are going to force me to DO them because they assume I do NOT want to do them!
I don't know who they are, but I don't force anybody to do anything. I'm not sure anyone can.
Quote
The bible says I’ll have NEW desires and NEW mind, because God works through me and in me and that is why I’ll walk in the Spirit and obey him. My Spirit is ALIVE and I will never continue sinning. Praise Jesus.
We could discuss the relative order of those things, but I agree with the idea.
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Christianity is not a religion.
Yes it is.
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Jesus was not religious at all.
Yes He was.
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He hated religion.
No He didn't. He was frustrated by some Jewish leaders because they didn't get it, but everything He did and said, encoraged folks to continue with their religious obligations. They should tithe, pay the tax, observe Passover, and obey the religios leaders.
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Religion is unbelief.
Well, no. Religion is simply the regular expression of one's spirituality. In the case of Israel, the rites were assigned by God and He expected them to be done.
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The Holy Spirit leads me to live in holiness and obedience to the word of God.
That's a good thing.
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Religion leads me to sin.
You may allow it to lead you to sin, but religion has no force with which to lead you. For many people, their religious practices leads them to obedience and devotion to God.

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I feel very sad that some Christians defend religion.
Why? God demanded it of Israel, and most churches pray together, teach Scripture, share The Supper, support each other, and give coats to school kids. Why be sad about that?
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Before I converted to Christianity, I looked at it as just another religion but I was corrected that Jesus is everlasting life. It is a personal relationship.  It was probably the first thing I learned that Christianity is not religion. Now you’re telling me Christianity is just a religion?
Did I say it was "just another religion?" If we are using "a" religion to mean just another human spiritual philosophy, then I understand your reticence. However, Christianity, as even a minimally organized movement has specific religious and spiritual requirements. Faith is one of them.
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Protestants come here and preach to me that religion is what I need?
for the low church Protestants, I suspect it is because they are using a different definition of religion than you are.
Quote
I need Jesus and more of Jesus not religion, rituals and list of DO this and do NOT do that....
The NT has several of those lists and presents them in such ways that they seem required. If God gives you the lists, why would we object to them? On what basis would we say, "that's nice, but I don't think so?"
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I did not learn much about Christ there....so much traditions.....
That's too bad. Maybe a high church isn't appropriate for you.
 
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I do not think God wants me to practice a religion again.  [/color]
Well, as I said, the Bible has a host of requirements and expectations for God followers, one of which is the encouraging of others in the Faith. There are other, more mature believers whose responsibility is to mature others in the Faith as well. Meeting with Christians for these purposes is expected in Scripture. Whether we do this in informal groups or house churches, or in high church cathedrals, all such groups will organize themselves and develop their own rituals. That, with its purpose of transforming people, is religion and religious practice.

Can religious practice and religion itself be abused? Sure.

But that by itself does not mean that religion and religious practice are by definition hated by God, oppressive, or unChristian.

And this is where Kimberly makes her mistake - in equating the potential negative affects of religion with religion itself. That failure is a failure in logic.
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 28, 2013 - 12:23:02 by HRoberson »

Offline DaveW

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #23 on: Wed Aug 28, 2013 - 12:26:40 »
HR - the reason Lily is saying the things she is is simply that she does not understand what religion really is.

She and we are decrying the same thing.  She calls it "religion" and we do not. 

What we call "religion" she is calling something else.

HRoberson

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #24 on: Wed Aug 28, 2013 - 12:31:17 »
HR - the reason Lily is saying the things she is is simply that she does not understand what religion really is.

She and we are decrying the same thing.  She calls it "religion" and we do not. 

What we call "religion" she is calling something else.
I know. The problem is that she has this angst that is not helpful for her or anyone else. And, well, my initial post on this thread was about the list of signs as a journalistic item by itself. Regardless of whether I agree with the list or not, it is poorly executed.

Offline DaveW

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #25 on: Wed Aug 28, 2013 - 12:49:57 »
As Asher Intrater said at a Tikkun conference a few years ago:

"God only ever made one religion: ancient Israelite Judaism.  He also only made one way of salvation: the shed blood of Messiah."


The point is that God Himself created a religion, and Yeshua/Jesus was very observant of it as practiced in His day. So much so that when they wanted to kill him they had to make up charges to do so.

HRoberson

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #26 on: Wed Aug 28, 2013 - 14:50:02 »
As Asher Intrater said at a Tikkun conference a few years ago:

"God only ever made one religion: ancient Israelite Judaism.  He also only made one way of salvation: the shed blood of Messiah."


The point is that God Himself created a religion, and Yeshua/Jesus was very observant of it as practiced in His day. So much so that when they wanted to kill him they had to make up charges to do so.
I wonder what religion Cain, Abel, and Noah practiced?

Offline DaveW

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #27 on: Thu Aug 29, 2013 - 05:33:16 »
As Asher Intrater said at a Tikkun conference a few years ago:

"God only ever made one religion: ancient Israelite Judaism.  He also only made one way of salvation: the shed blood of Messiah."

The point is that God Himself created a religion, and Yeshua/Jesus was very observant of it as practiced in His day. So much so that when they wanted to kill him they had to make up charges to do so.
I wonder what religion Cain, Abel, and Noah practiced?

Its a fair question. One that we have no record of to tell whether they came up with something on their own, if it grew organically out of their relationship with the Almighty or if He specified to them what to do.   Since what they did seems to reflect certain parts of the Levitical instructions, I would choose the latter. 

HRoberson

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #28 on: Thu Aug 29, 2013 - 08:20:42 »
As Asher Intrater said at a Tikkun conference a few years ago:

"God only ever made one religion: ancient Israelite Judaism.  He also only made one way of salvation: the shed blood of Messiah."

The point is that God Himself created a religion, and Yeshua/Jesus was very observant of it as practiced in His day. So much so that when they wanted to kill him they had to make up charges to do so.
I wonder what religion Cain, Abel, and Noah practiced?

Its a fair question. One that we have no record of to tell whether they came up with something on their own, if it grew organically out of their relationship with the Almighty or if He specified to them what to do.   Since what they did seems to reflect certain parts of the Levitical instructions, I would choose the latter. 
There must have been some standard because Cain failed to meet it, which means that God established more than one religion if we take the Mosaic tablets as the start of Judaism.

Offline DaveW

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #29 on: Thu Aug 29, 2013 - 12:06:40 »
I am not sure you can start with the Exodus.  IMO Judaism started with the fall.

It became more formalized over time but the basic structure was there: commandments and blood sacrifice atonement for violating the commandments.

HRoberson

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #30 on: Thu Aug 29, 2013 - 13:13:43 »
I am not sure you can start with the Exodus.  IMO Judaism started with the fall.

It became more formalized over time but the basic structure was there: commandments and blood sacrifice atonement for violating the commandments.
I might be able to go as far as Abram, but not the Fall.

You are of course, welcome to your own IMO.  ::smile::

notreligus

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #31 on: Fri Aug 30, 2013 - 16:50:01 »
Lily, it seems that you are getting on the last nerve of the religious folk.   ::crackup::

Offline .:Lily:.

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #32 on: Fri Aug 30, 2013 - 17:47:05 »
Dave,

Quote
“That is NOT "religion." As long as you keep putting this out there I will keep telling you that you are using the wrong definition.

What you are doing is the equivalent of saying the Westboro group is the definition of what a Baptist is.”



What is religion then ?  ::frown::

No, Westboro are Calvinists. You see what Calvinism does to people? That is exactly what religion does to people.


 
Catholica

Quote
Jesus followed the tenets of the religion that God himself created, so let me get this straight: with that thought in mind, people who obey the tenets of a religion are: a) religious or b) not religious?



Do you understand that you can be a religious and atheist? My oldest sister is a religious atheist.



Quote
“Also was there a time in your life when you considered yourself to not be saved?  Are you saved now?  Did Jesus die on the cross for you during that time?  Or what happened that suddenly made you saved?”

Catholica, you ask me strange questions. What does this have to do with religion?

Salvation is a miracle and it is only the beginning. Jesus saved me instantly the moment I “simply” believed and trusted in him alone.

No, there was no time in my life after I came to Christ and considered myself not to be saved, but probably I had salvation inside a box and had doubts when I sinned and I knew it was my accuser. You see the one in me is stronger than the devil because he kept me spiritually alive. What happened? I passed from death to LIFE. You asked me if I’m saved now?! what kind of question is this? Yes I’m saved and today I’m sanctified and Holy Ghost filled. Today, Jesus is sweeter than the day before. It is all HIS work.

   
Quote
Is rejecting religion on a list of things that a person needs to do to be "accepted", in your view? 

No but it depends on how you define your religion.There is no salvation in Catholicism, Anglicanism, Protestantism or any ISMs…   



Quote
Was Jesus promoting religion when he said "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."?  Was Jesus trying to steal people's joy and make them feel depressed?  Which is more like what Jesus taught, a religion which encourages us to "be perfect" or one that says that trying to be perfect should be rejected because it "steals your joy"?

Being prideful and thinking one is better than others has a remedy, and it is the sacrament of confession.  Perhaps Protestants have this problem more than faithful Catholics because they rejected that beautiful sacrament.

If you’re in Christ you’re already perfect in him because he does not see your sins. Reconciliation of a Penitent (confession) is ok. What I do not understand is why it is compulsory to go to a priest in the Catholic religion? I would say confess publicly to everyone in the church about your sin. How about that?

I go to the highest Priest my lord Jesus and he forgives me.



Quote
“All the saints who I read, who all are filled with a joy beyond understanding, are very loyal followers of their religion. St. Catherine of Siena, your own favorite whipping girl for all that is wrong with religion, suffered terribly in her life, and she did it all with joy.
Reality doesn't match your beliefs.  Apparently that isn't a problem for you?”

Well St. Catherine was a good lady but she is a bad theologian. She believed in many fables. The Saints I know are loyal to Jesus. They are not loyal to a Pope.

Quote
“Was biblical Judaism, which God created, a "form of godliness" with "regimen and repetition"?  If you think not, then you haven't read the Torah.  Just because something has regimen and repetition doesn't make it a false form of godliness. “

No, but now we live according to the NT now. Do you pray in your own words or you pray the formal liturgical prayers? When I was following men’ traditions, I had to memorize some basic prayers or these so called Saints’ prayers. What is good about that? I want to pray in my words….



Quote
“If you were already perfect, then you wouldn't need to be sanctified.  People are forgiven of sins by Christ, but that is not the same thing as being perfect.  How can you not see this?  Am I blind to think that someone who needs sanctification is not perfect?  Is becoming more perfect possible?  That defies the definition of "perfect".”

Every born again Christian is perfect IN JESUS. I'm saved and sanctified. It is all HIS work in me.


Quote
“What you are saying is the lie.  Here is the "real" KJV Bible to demonstrate:

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”

Matthew 7
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV):

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Those people have many wonderful works. They are still going hell because they believed in works salvation.


Romans 6:16 does not say we are saved because we obey him. We are saved because we believed. Acts 16:31 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV): 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.



Quote
“Another lie.  If you do so, you will be cut off from the true vine. Here Jesus says that if you keep his commandments AS he has kept his Father's commandments, you abide in his love, and if you do not abide in him, you are case forth and thrown into the fire and burned.”

Actually you’re calling God a liar now because you believe God can break his covenant and he said he will not. Nothing can make me unsaved even if I commit all the mortal sins on your Catholic list and that will not never happen because God chose me to be HOLY and before the foundation of the world.

Was St. Peter the foundation of your church unsaved when he denied Jesus three times?


Quote
“So how do we eat Christ's flesh and drink Christ's blood as commanded in John 6?  The answer is in Luke 22:19-20:”

I used to say it is a mystery, but after reading the bible I knew it is not literally Jesus’ blood. I can open a new thread if you want to discuss this?

But it is strange that you take Jesus’ words literally here but you do you believe that ALL have sinned. Romans 3:23 says ALL have sinned so why do Roman Catholics do not take it literally here? Or is it because you choose what you want to believe?


Quote
“Striving to be holy, which Jesus commands, means that at one time we are glorifying God, and at another we are sinning.  Do you believe that Jesus died for our sins?  So because YOU sinned, Jesus died.  Every time you sin, are you thankful that Jesus was crucified for your sins?  Are you not also very thankful that people did yell "crucify him"?  Would you say that they shouldn't have yelled "crucify him?"  If they hadn't, you wouldn't be saved.  In fact, it would be best for you, if you had been there, to be someoneencouraging others to yell "crucify him!"”

Wow... That is just evil….






HRoberson

Quote
“Well it does say that; I'm not at all sure that you understand it. I like tennis, but I don't know that God likes tennis. Am I sinning if I play tennis?”

Not it is not a sin.


Quote
“Actually, the Bible has a multi-item short list. I don't know if that constitutes a "list of things."

I do them because I love God and because I want to walk in HOLINESS.

Religion said I have to do them to be saved. That is works salvation.



Quote
“You may allow it to lead you to sin, but religion has no force with which to lead you. For many people, their religious practices leads them to obedience and devotion to God.”

If they do not have Jesus then these religious practices will lead them to hell.


Quote
“Why? God demanded it of Israel, and most churches pray together, teach Scripture, share The Supper, support each other, and give coats to school kids. Why be sad about that?”

This is NOT a religion but it can be a religion when you think doing these things will save you.


Quote
“The NT has several of those lists and presents them in such ways that they seem required. If God gives you the lists, why would we object to them? On what basis would we say, "that's nice, but I don't think so?"”

God’s rules are Holy. We must do them. I want a relationship with Jesus with God’s rules. But religion comes and says: I’m gonna take this doctrine on baptism or speaking in tongues and make them required or you’re not saved. We see this in the United Pentecostal Church or other churches like CoC.


Quote
“That's too bad. Maybe a high church isn't appropriate for you.”

I was into a Low reformed Church tradition: 2 sacraments (Baptism and Communion) and I prefer to call them ordinances. I was an Anglican Evangelical. Some of the members were more into High church practices: those usually add confirmation, confession, holy matrimony (marriage), orders and unction. Most of them say they are Catholic (Apostolic Universal faith or a society of Christians.) They pray the rosary and believe in baptismal regeneration and real presence. In other words, they are Catholics in Anglican clothing but well at least they do not believe in purgatory or the Pope.   

Liturgical churches make me feel uncomfortable and they teach many errors. The church claims to be friendly to Charismatics but I actually found them friendly more to homosexuals than to Charismatic Christians. Many of them discredit the spiritual gifts and that is a NO Thanks for me.
« Last Edit: Fri Aug 30, 2013 - 17:57:34 by .:Lily:. »

HRoberson

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #33 on: Fri Aug 30, 2013 - 17:55:28 »
Yes, I know you don't like "religion," but religion by itself is neutral. It's perfectly OK for you to have a preference for church style and in many cases your dislike of nonsubstantive ritual is well met.

However, not all religious practices are nonsubstantive or unhelpful for many people.

This is the mistake Kimberly makes in her list - failing to distinguish between helpful and oppressive religious expression.

Offline Red Baker

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Re: 10 Characteristics of a Religious Spirit
« Reply #34 on: Fri Aug 30, 2013 - 18:06:02 »

Dave,

Quote
“That is NOT "religion." As long as you keep putting this out there I will keep telling you that you are using the wrong definition.

What you are doing is the equivalent of saying the Westboro group is the definition of what a Baptist is.”



What is religion then ?  ::frown::

No, Westboro are Calvinists. You see what Calvinism does to people? That is exactly what religion does to people.


 
Catholica

Quote
Jesus followed the tenets of the religion that God himself created, so let me get this straight: with that thought in mind, people who obey the tenets of a religion are: a) religious or b) not religious?



Do you understand that you can be a religious and atheist? My oldest sister is a religious atheist.



Quote
“Also was there a time in your life when you considered yourself to not be saved?  Are you saved now?  Did Jesus die on the cross for you during that time?  Or what happened that suddenly made you saved?”

Catholica, you ask me strange questions. What does this have to do with religion?

Salvation is a miracle and it is only the beginning. Jesus saved me instantly the moment I “simply” believed and trusted in him alone.

No, there was no time in my life after I came to Christ and considered myself not to be saved, but probably I had salvation inside a box and had doubts when I sinned and I knew it was my accuser. You see the one in me is stronger than the devil because he kept me spiritually alive. What happened? I passed from death to LIFE. You asked me if I’m saved now?! what kind of question is this? Yes I’m saved and today I’m sanctified and Holy Ghost filled. Today, Jesus is sweeter than the day before. It is all HIS work.

   
Quote
Is rejecting religion on a list of things that a person needs to do to be "accepted", in your view? 

No but it depends on how you define your religion.There is no salvation in Catholicism, Anglicanism, Protestantism or any ISMs…   



Quote
Was Jesus promoting religion when he said "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."?  Was Jesus trying to steal people's joy and make them feel depressed?  Which is more like what Jesus taught, a religion which encourages us to "be perfect" or one that says that trying to be perfect should be rejected because it "steals your joy"?

Being prideful and thinking one is better than others has a remedy, and it is the sacrament of confession.  Perhaps Protestants have this problem more than faithful Catholics because they rejected that beautiful sacrament.

If you’re in Christ you’re already perfect in him because he does not see your sins. Reconciliation of a Penitent (confession) is ok. What I do not understand is why it is compulsory to go to a priest in the Catholic religion? I would say confess publicly to everyone in the church about your sin. How about that?

I go to the highest Priest my lord Jesus and he forgives me.



Quote
“All the saints who I read, who all are filled with a joy beyond understanding, are very loyal followers of their religion. St. Catherine of Siena, your own favorite whipping girl for all that is wrong with religion, suffered terribly in her life, and she did it all with joy.
Reality doesn't match your beliefs.  Apparently that isn't a problem for you?”

Well St. Catherine was a good lady but she is a bad theologian. She believed in many fables. The Saints I know are loyal to Jesus. They are not loyal to a Pope.

Quote
“Was biblical Judaism, which God created, a "form of godliness" with "regimen and repetition"?  If you think not, then you haven't read the Torah.  Just because something has regimen and repetition doesn't make it a false form of godliness. “

No, but now we live according to the NT now. Do you pray in your own words or you pray the formal liturgical prayers? When I was following men’ traditions, I had to memorize some basic prayers or these so called Saints’ prayers. What is good about that? I want to pray in my words….



Quote
“If you were already perfect, then you wouldn't need to be sanctified.  People are forgiven of sins by Christ, but that is not the same thing as being perfect.  How can you not see this?  Am I blind to think that someone who needs sanctification is not perfect?  Is becoming more perfect possible?  That defies the definition of "perfect".”

Every born again Christian is perfect IN JESUS. I'm saved ad sanctified. It is all HIS work in me.


Quote
“What you are saying is the lie.  Here is the "real" KJV Bible to demonstrate:

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”

Matthew 7
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV):

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Those people have many wonderful works. They are still going hell because they believed in works salvation.


Romans 6:16 does not say we are saved because we obey him. We are saved because we believed. Acts 16:31 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV): 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.



Quote
“Another lie.  If you do so, you will be cut off from the true vine. Here Jesus says that if you keep his commandments AS he has kept his Father's commandments, you abide in his love, and if you do not abide in him, you are case forth and thrown into the fire and burned.”

Actually you’re calling God a liar now because you believe God can break his covenant and he said he will not. Nothing can make me unsaved even if I commit all the mortal sins on your Catholic list and that will not never happen because God chose me to be HOLY and before the foundation of the world.

Was St. Peter the foundation of your church unsaved when he denied Jesus three times?


Quote
“So how do we eat Christ's flesh and drink Christ's blood as commanded in John 6?  The answer is in Luke 22:19-20:”

I used to say it is a mystery, but after reading the bible I knew it is not literally Jesus’s blood. I can open a new thread if you want to discuss this?

But it is strange that you take Jesus’ words literally here but you do you believe that ALL have sinned. Romans 3:23 says ALL have sinned so why do Roman Catholics do not take it literally here? Or is it because you choose what you want to believe?


Quote
“Striving to be holy, which Jesus commands, means that at one time we are glorifying God, and at another we are sinning.  Do you believe that Jesus died for our sins?  So because YOU sinned, Jesus died.  Every time you sin, are you thankful that Jesus was crucified for your sins?  Are you not also very thankful that people did yell "crucify him"?  Would you say that they shouldn't have yelled "crucify him?"  If they hadn't, you wouldn't be saved.  In fact, it would be best for you, if you had been there, to be someoneencouraging others to yell "crucify him!"”

Wow... That is just evil….






HRoberson

Quote
“Well it does say that; I'm not at all sure that you understand it. I like tennis, but I don't know that God likes tennis. Am I sinning if I play tennis?”

Not it is not a sin.


Quote
“Actually, the Bible has a multi-item short list. I don't know if that constitutes a "list of things."

I do them because I love God and because I want to walk in HOLINESS.

Religion said I have to do them to be saved. That is works salvation.



Quote
“You may allow it to lead you to sin, but religion has no force with which to lead you. For many people, their religious practices leads them to obedience and devotion to God.”

If they do not have Jesus then these religious practices will lead them to hell.


Quote
“Why? God demanded it of Israel, and most churches pray together, teach Scripture, share The Supper, support each other, and give coats to school kids. Why be sad about that?”

This is NOT a religion but it can be a religion when you think doing these things will save you.


Quote
“The NT has several of those lists and presents them in such ways that they seem required. If God gives you the lists, why would we object to them? On what basis would we say, "that's nice, but I don't think so?"”

God’s rules are Holy. We must do them. I want a relationship with Jesus with God’s rules. But religion comes and says: I’m gonna take this doctrine on baptism or speaking in tongues and make them required or you’re not saved. We see this in the United Pentecostal Church or other churches like CoC.


Quote
“That's too bad. Maybe a high church isn't appropriate for you.”

I was into a Low reformed Church tradition: 2 sacraments (Baptism and Communion) and I prefer to call them ordinances. I was an Anglican Evangelical. Some of the members were more into High church practices: those usually add confirmation, confession, holy matrimony (marriage), orders and unction. Most of them say they are Catholic (Apostolic Universal faith or a society of Christians.) They pray the rosary and believe in baptismal regeneration and real presence. In other words, they are Catholics in Anglican clothing but well at least they do not believe in purgatory or the Pope.   

Liturgical churches make me feel uncomfortable and they teach many errors. The church claims to be friendly to Charismatics but I actually found them friendly more to homosexuals than to Charismatic Christians. Many of them discredit the spiritual gifts and that is a NO Thanks for me.


Greetings Lily.

You said: "You see what Calvinism does to people? That is exactly what religion does to people. " 

What do you mean by this?  Your words are from a very proud spirit.  I know every little about the group that you mentioned, but do know thousands of godly Calvinist.  Some of the worlds past saints were Calvinist in their understanding, yet would total disagree with the spirit of that church.  You have just condemned many of the saints of God by your arrogant statement~shame on you!   Some of the most godly hymns ever written, were written by such people.  And I might add~would never support Westboro Baptist church, never.   Even though Calvinism takes in many different people who may not agree on certain points, yet do agree that salvation is totally of God's grace.  I will defend them, regardless of some disagreements on certain points, just as I might would you on certain points.  I am disappointed in your statement, by lumping people together as though they believe the same on all points.  Where is your charity?

RB 
« Last Edit: Fri Aug 30, 2013 - 18:08:25 by Red Baker »

 

     
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