Baptism in the Spirit

[Jimmy]

ok!    if you say so.

[Elaine]

ok!    if you say so.

I know  -I just make these things up. I'm sorry you've never been exposed to the real thing. I'm the real deal - after $100's spent trying to fix my problem over 3 years.
But, hey, you don't know me from Adam ---I may be making this up to glorify God ---it would be just like me. 

Lies, lies, and more lies... 
Still love ya buddy...

[Jimmy]

ok!    if you say so.

I know  -I just make these things up. I'm sorry you've never been exposed to the real thing. I'm the real deal - after $100's spent trying to fix my problem over 3 years.
But, hey, you don't know me from Adam ---I may be making this up to glorify God ---it would be just like me. 

Lies, lies, and more lies... 
Still love ya buddy...

Just, FYI, at my church we've got healings all the time.

People in hospice dying being prayed for and bingo - no more signs of the AIDS virus in their blood after years ---literally the dead brought back to life - toe tags still on.

I got healed July 2.

Does everyone in your church get healed?   Is all manner of sickness and ailings gone from your church? Or is it just some but not all?  If not all, why do you think that is?  And what do you think the purpose is behind the healings that do are occur?  Why are people being brought back to life?  Was there something else they needed to do?

To be perfectly honest, I feel very confident of what my reward will be when this life is over.  I am not certain that being brought back after I die, for whatever reason, is something that I would want. In fact I am quite certain that I would not like it.  That was always a big question in my mind concerning the account of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead.  Paul said " to die is gain".  In Lazarus' case, I think the intent was no so much that he be brought back to life but that Jesus proved His credentials in the act of raising someone from the dead.

[fenton]

I'll answer this for my church...

Does everyone in your church get healed?
No
Is all manner of sickness and ailings gone from your church?
No
Or is it just some but not all? 
Some!
If not all, why do you think that is?
Is our faith contaminated!!!!  POST!!!

And what do you think the purpose is behind the healings that do are occur? 
Why are people being brought back to life? Was there something else they needed to do?
Maybe you aught to ask God that question when you stand before Him. I think that's a question only He can answer.

[Jimmy]

I'll answer this for my church...

Does everyone in your church get healed?
No
Is all manner of sickness and ailings gone from your church?
No
Or is it just some but not all? 
Some!
If not all, why do you think that is?
Is our faith contaminated!!!!  POST!!!

I am not sure I understand what you are getting at.  Are you saying that in your church the ones that are not healed are those whose faith is contaminated?  That seems to be what your Is our faith contaminated!!!!  POST!!! is suggesting.  Do I have that wrong?

And what do you think the purpose is behind the healings that do are occur? 
Why are people being brought back to life? Was there something else they needed to do?
Maybe you aught to ask God that question when you stand before Him. I think that's a question only He can answer.

No, I should be able to answer that question by reading the Bible; and so should you.  Since you are the one presenting miraculous healing of some but not all, then you should be able to answer the question of why not all.
[/quote]

[fenton]

I'll answer this for my church...

Does everyone in your church get healed?
No
Is all manner of sickness and ailings gone from your church?
No
Or is it just some but not all? 
Some!
If not all, why do you think that is?
Is our faith contaminated!!!!  POST!!!

I am not sure I understand what you are getting at.  Are you saying that in your church the ones that are not healed are those whose faith is contaminated?  That seems to be what your Is our faith contaminated!!!!  POST!!! is suggesting.  Do I have that wrong?
No you do not have that wrong,  why question other peoples faith, that gets them to questioning it themselves, thats what im talking about...

And what do you think the purpose is behind the healings that do are occur? 
Why are people being brought back to life? Was there something else they needed to do?
Maybe you aught to ask God that question when you stand before Him. I think that's a question only He can answer.

No, I should be able to answer that question by reading the Bible; and so should you.  Since you are the one presenting miraculous healing of some but not all, then you should be able to answer the question of why not all.

[/quote]
I can not answer that question. If you can, then you can tell the person themselves why they cant recieve their miracle.

[Jimmy]

I'll answer this for my church...

Does everyone in your church get healed?
No
Is all manner of sickness and ailings gone from your church?
No
Or is it just some but not all? 
Some!
If not all, why do you think that is?
Is our faith contaminated!!!!  POST!!!

I am not sure I understand what you are getting at.  Are you saying that in your church the ones that are not healed are those whose faith is contaminated?  That seems to be what your Is our faith contaminated!!!!  POST!!! is suggesting.  Do I have that wrong?
No you do not have that wrong,  why question other peoples faith, that gets them to questioning it themselves, thats what im talking about...

And what do you think the purpose is behind the healings that do are occur? 
Why are people being brought back to life? Was there something else they needed to do?
Maybe you aught to ask God that question when you stand before Him. I think that's a question only He can answer.

No, I should be able to answer that question by reading the Bible; and so should you.  Since you are the one presenting miraculous healing of some but not all, then you should be able to answer the question of why not all.

I can not answer that question. If you can, then you can tell the person themselves why they cant recieve their miracle.
[/quote]

God didn't promised them any.

[fenton]

Jimmy
God didn't promised them any.

can you show me in scripture where God did not promise His children, miracles?
and where in scripture does it say we have to remain sick.

[Jimmy]

Jimmy
God didn't promised them any.

can you show me in scripture where God did not promise His children, miracles?

In fact , I can show you verse after verse in the Scriptures where God did not promise His childre miracles.  But I don't think that is really what you meant.

However, apart from that, can you show me where He did?

and where in scripture does it say we have to remain sick.[/color]

No, but Paul did tell Timothy to drink a little wine for the sake of his stomach.  I wonder why Paul didn't just tell Timothy to cure it with a miracle or even work a healing miracle on Timothy for the sake of his stomach.

[DCR]

Jimmy
God didn't promised them any.

can you show me in scripture where God did not promise His children, miracles?
and where in scripture does it say we have to remain sick.

Yep... here's one:



2 Corinthians 12

⁷To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. ⁸Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. ⁹But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."

[Elaine]

Hi Jimmy,

Before I was ever involved in any church, back in 1993 - I called up a famous church in my town - (like famous in the USA!) ( I didn't even own a Bible till 2006!)

 I asked the receptionist if they did or had healings at their church. She acted as if I was a reporter or something -very vague -eventually she asked if I went to the church. I said, no - it was for a permanently disabled friend that I was desparate for and was convinced this was the only solution at this point.

To my surprise, she carefully discouraged me in any healing there.But incouraged me to attend the church and just kind of see ---it was all so mysterious!!

If you were to call my church they would say "Come on in anytime!".  I know this for a fact, btw.  It is a Holy Spirit filled place and they have "prayer ministers" ( a new term for me) at the ready. 

So last year, there was a "special" healer/pastor speaking  -we have lots of visiting pastors-  we were told in advance - there would be a big old healing afterwards ---so I told my crippled friend who was raised Catholic, but has a strong belief that God can do the impossible ---her husband, a pessimistic, sarcastic, non-believer, brought her trying" not to say anything.

She went up in line, after, he asked her -"So, did you feel anything happen?"
She said," I did feel better for about 10 minutes."
Am I surprised it didn't work for her ---Not at all.   A person's faith has to have NO Doubt whatsoever. I'm tellin' ya.

That's just my experience and from a million books I've read on the subject,also.

The person has to "want" the pain to be gone -they have to have faith and belief and trust and all.  I believe she has not had the preparation ---as in reading
 the Bible and listening to encouraging tapes to build her faith.

The people in my church that want to be healed and believe that it is God's will  for them to be healed and healthy get results.    If they doubt or really "want" to be in their pain ---it doesn't happen.   Hanging onto your pain is a subtle subconscious desire for some people, as you must know.    It "works" for them...sometimes it is a manifestation they have created for some reason.

The phsycology of illness or pain you can read about on your own.

But, with our faith we are healed. If the devil is working between your ears with doubt -  the cancer returns, the limp comes back --it happens all the time.   Does that mean the pastor was not a "good authentic healer" Not at all.   Can a person's faith be built up and they can go back for another prayer session ---Absolutely!!

That's why they must call it faith healing.    I have been fascinated by this subject for years ---there are many books out there if you are interested.


Note: Needless to say -God does all the healing ---that's understood. I can not believe anyone on this site needs to "correct" another here on that.  It's a "given".

Jimmy, if you want to understand more -boy, are there ever books out there.   :)

[fenton]

Elaine
they do not want to understand it.
they want to deny it,
their posts have already cast doubts into peoples minds that read this post.

[BornToReign]

Elaine
they do not want to understand it.
they want to deny it,
their posts have already cast doubts into peoples minds that read this post.

"It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come!"

The fact that they are going out of their way to attack peoples faith in the power of God is disturbing.

[Elaine]

fenton,
Oh...was I being naive again? HA!

You know,  I think it is so hard from the outside looking in---if
a person is "hurting" and becomes desperate enough and keeps
reading about Jesus and His healing ministry - - a crack of hope and then faith usually follows.   From the outside I know what being slain in the Spirit looks like -fake, fake, fake.  I can't blame people -I can just wish they would open a crack.
But, "all in it's own time"...

This is kind of on the topic ---do you happen to know where I can find " I've magnified my word above my Name."   Saying how indeed His Word and thus promises are- unchangeable!   It's all part of helping people believe.
Thanks,
:)Elaine

[fenton]

Elaine

Psa 138:2  I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

[Elaine]

Elaine

Psa 138:2  I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

That was fast :)   And it's right next to my absolute fav Ps 139 ---how convenient.

Thanks! 

[fenton]

your most welcome..

[BornToReign]

Your promises are backed by the honor of Your name.

'Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all His benefits, who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases,' -Psa.103

[Elaine]

Your promises are backed by the honor of Your name.

'Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all His benefits, who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases,' -Psa.103

...as in all....

That's a good point to help others build up their faith or belief.
How simple is that -either God is a liar or He is not.

I think that is the first step towards faith ---you believe in what
God says (promised, declared) or you simply do not.
 You believe in some maybe ----but not all ----that I think might be the stumbling block for some brothers and sisters.

Can a person believe it all.      I joke with friends that say they hurt all over ---"Does your big toe hurt?"    Because all to me is Biblical --meaning all is simply all in the Bible ---it never means sometimes or some people, but not "him over there".

How wonderful it is when your total faith is in His words, promises, covenant, declarations ---and not just some of them.   For me it was the secret of this life like the Sun rising finally.

One of my favorite verses comes from Paul:
He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all - how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?     Rom 8:32

[Jimmy]

Elaine
they do not want to understand it.
they want to deny it,
their posts have already cast doubts into peoples minds that read this post.

"It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come!"

The fact that they are going out of their way to attack peoples faith in the power of God is disturbing.

BornToReign,

That is not true and you should be ashamed to even think it let alone write it.  Neither I nor anyone else here has attacked your faith.  In point of fact it is almost always your side of the fence that attacks the faith of others, especially those who don't seem to be healed.  (See Elaine's post above. If one isn't healed it is because of a lack of faith.)  We have suggested that we do not believe some of the reports coming out of such organizations.  But it is not faith that is being attacked.

BTW, if you review carefully the accounts of healing, only seldom did it involve the faith of the one being healed.  The power for the working of miracles is by the Holy Spirit in the worker of miracles not the one receiving the miracle.

[fenton]

BTW, if you review carefully the accounts of healing, only seldom did it involve the faith of the one being healed.  The power for the working of miracles is by the Holy Spirit in the worker of miracles not the one receiving the miracle.

if you are talking about in today's time. it takes stepping out in faith to go up front and claim the healing. you can sit in your pew all service long and not receive the healing, no matter how much power the miracle worker has.

but if someone has instilled unbelief in your heart you will sit in that pew and not even attempt to step out in faith.

when people go around and say "God didn't promise any miracles" then you are attacking MY faith.

nowhere have I attacked your faith, I do not know your faith.

[Jimmy]

BTW, if you review carefully the accounts of healing, only seldom did it involve the faith of the one being healed.  The power for the working of miracles is by the Holy Spirit in the worker of miracles not the one receiving the miracle.

if you are talking about in today's time. it takes stepping out in faith to go up front and claim the healing. you can sit in your pew all service long and not receive the healing, no matter how much power the miracle worker has.

but if someone has instilled unbelief in your heart you will sit in that pew and not even attempt to step out in faith.

when people go around and say "God didn't promise any miracles" then you are attacking MY faith.

nowhere have I attacked your faith, I do not know your faith.

You just did by implication, by suggesting that I would be healed if I had the faith to go up and claim the healing instead of just sitting in the pew.

[fenton]

here we go again... word games....

i will re-word it...

BTW, if you review carefully the accounts of healing, only seldom did it involve the faith of the one being healed.  The power for the working of miracles is by the Holy Spirit in the worker of miracles not the one receiving the miracle.

if you are talking about in today's time. it takes stepping out in faith to go up front and claim the healing. "I" can sit in "my" pew all service long and not receive the healing, no matter how much power the miracle worker has.

but if someone has instilled unbelief in "my" heart "I" will sit in that pew and not even attempt to step out in faith.

when people go around and say "God didn't promise any miracles" then you are attacking MY faith.

nowhere have I attacked your faith, I do not know your faith.


Is that better******************is that to your satisfaction..


I am NOT attacking your faith................

[Jimmy]

here we go again... word games....


when people go around and say "God didn't promise any miracles" then you are attacking MY faith.

nowhere have I attacked your faith, I do not know your faith.

fenton,

When people go around and say "God didn't promise any miracles"  they are not attacking your faith, they are simply expressing what they see in the Bible.  Now if you would like to show me where I am wrong, I am ok with that.  We can at least discuss that.

What we can't discuss is whether or not you or anyone else has been miraculously healed.  Unless of course you have some proof of it.  Otherwise iit is only a statement by you and that is not something we can discuss.

[DCR]

Elaine
they do not want to understand it.
they want to deny it,
their posts have already cast doubts into peoples minds that read this post.

"It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come!"

The fact that they are going out of their way to attack peoples faith in the power of God is disturbing.

I don't know who's "going out of their way" to attack anyone's faith in the power of God.  But, all I did was post a Scripture that shows an example of the Apostle Paul not being healed of his thorn in the flesh because, as God told him, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."

That is no attack on anyone's faith... it just shows that God heals when it is His will to heal.

Lack of faith on Paul's part?  I think not.  Rather, he was not healed for the reason he was given there in 2 Corinthians 12.

[Elaine]

Hi Jimmy,

That stepping up that fenton mentioned is so simple compared to what the woman did  ---bleeding for years and not being allowed to even be in the public and dragging herself through a crowd -to simply touch Jesus' garment. And then we all know what He said to her. :)

Faith is a subtle thing - belief also is ---deep in the recesses of our minds -we may harbor doubt ---and we are not even aware of it!!! One of the ways a sliver of doubt creeps in is to say ---"Well, maybe God doesn't want to heal "me". (Even though we profess to believe that He is not a respecter of persons ---STILL there can be this little remnent of questioning for ourselves.)

"Maybe I'm supposed to have cancer to learn something? Maybe I am supposed to have Lupus because I was "bad" to someone."  Maybe this or maybe that.  And we must know with all of our conviction --that No, God wants me well.

Faith comes from hearing and hearing the Word of God -I thnk that's it.   The more we dive into the healing messages we get stronger in our belief that indeed that is precisely what God wants for us ---all of us.

If the Holy Spirit wants me healed  --but I'm hanging onto my sickness for some deep psycological reason ---will I let Him work in my life?--Does that mean He is not all powerful ---no --but I'm not allowing Him in.   fenton,Born to Reign, and I may look at this differently - I don't know ---I'm open to learning.  But so far it's working for me.

I just made a post on Gen Disc ---J man has a thread on where does sickness come from...

[BornToReign]

all I did was post a Scripture that shows an example of the Apostle Paul not being healed of his thorn in the flesh because, as God told him, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."

That is no attack on anyone's faith... it just shows that God heals when it is His will to heal.

Lack of faith on Paul's part?  I think not.  Rather, he was not healed for the reason he was given there in 2 Corinthians 12.

"the messenger of Satan to buffet me"

His "thorn in the flesh" was not a disease. It was persecution for the gospel.
Thorn in the flesh was an OT term; (Numb.33:55, Josh.22:13, Judges 2:3) Paul used Old Testament terminology to refer to the persecution he was suffering. His thorn was persecution not some sickness. We are not redeemed from persecution. 2Tim.3:12


And casting doubt in anyones mind to what they have faith in is attacking their faith, you make their faith weak by introducing doubt and unbelief.

And so by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.  -1Cr.8:13

[fenton]

What we can't discuss is whether or not you or anyone else has been miraculously healed.  Unless of course you have some proof of it.  Otherwise iit is only a statement by you and that is not something we can discuss.
[/quote]

so you cant or wont believe me if i say i have been healed of a vary rare disease, with only my word?

[Jimmy]

What we can't discuss is whether or not you or anyone else has been miraculously healed.  Unless of course you have some proof of it.  Otherwise iit is only a statement by you and that is not something we can discuss.

so you cant or wont believe me if i say i have been healed of a vary rare disease, with only my word?

I have been healed of a lot of things, and I praise God for that.  But I don't believe there was a miracle in any of it.

[fenton]

you believe you can be healed but you don't believe in miracles?

how odd!

i thought a healing was a miracle!!!!!

i guess we differ a LOT.

[DCR]

all I did was post a Scripture that shows an example of the Apostle Paul not being healed of his thorn in the flesh because, as God told him, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."

That is no attack on anyone's faith... it just shows that God heals when it is His will to heal.

Lack of faith on Paul's part?  I think not.  Rather, he was not healed for the reason he was given there in 2 Corinthians 12.

"the messenger of Satan to buffet me"

His "thorn in the flesh" was not a disease.

Then, what do you make of this?

Galatians 4
¹³As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you. ¹⁴Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. ¹⁵What has happened to all your joy? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me.

This "illness" (NIV) or "infirmity of the flesh" (KJV) has long been thought to have been a problem with Paul's eyes (especially in light of his statement there in Gal. 4:15).  This was likely the same thing he was referring to in 2 Cor. 12.

[fenton]

your saying we use Pauls thorn to say that God doesnt perform miracles any more?




you might aughta come up with a better one than that!!!!!

there is nobody around here like Paul!!!! unless you claim to be!!

[DCR]

your saying we use Pauls thorn to say that God doesnt perform miracles any more?

No, that isn't what I said.

I never said that God doesn't heal today, when it is His will.

But, it isn't always His will, as in the case of Paul.

[fenton]

Jesus took those stripes so we would not be sick.

Isa 53:5  But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

1Pe 2:24  Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.


so how could it NOT be His will for us to be Healthy.
Your saying Jesus took those stripes for nothing... they mean absolutely nothing..

[Jimmy]

you believe you can be healed but you don't believe in miracles?

how odd!

i thought a healing was a miracle!!!!!

i guess we differ a LOT.

Where in the world did you get such an idea.  Most times we are healed quite naturally by this amazing body that God created for mankind.

And even if we are healed by some intervention on God's part.  Do you think that God can do nothing apart from working a miracle?

Yes I guess we differ a LOT.

And also who said I didn't believe in miracles?  This discussion has nothing to do with whether or not I believe in miracles.