Baptism in the Spirit

[DCR]

Agreed

but physically also..............

People do still physically die, don't they?

As far as I know, every Christian who's ever lived was not healed of the final physical ailment that caused death in the end, even in old age.

GEESH!!!!!!!!

My sentiments exactly.  

[fenton]

well
God Bless you DCR and Jimmy

i will continue to believe that God performs miracles in my life, my faith will remain strong in that.

for I have been healed not by natural stuff, but by my faith, and the laying on of hands.   

i tip my hat to you guys for trying to change my mind... 

but my God is still in the miracles business

[DCR]

well
God Bless you DCR and Jimmy

i will continue to believe that God performs miracles in my life, my faith will remain strong in that.

for I have been healed not by natural stuff, but by my faith, and the laying on of hands.  

i tip my hat to you guys for trying to change my mind...  

but my God is still in the miracles business

Again, I never said that God is no longer in the "miracles business."

What we're concerned about here is the destructive nature of the doctrine that says that God will always heal physical ailments if someone has enough "faith."  The conclusion from that when someone isn't healed is that the individual wasn't healed because they didn't have enough faith or that others weren't praying hard enough.

That kind of thing does terrible emotional and spiritual damage.

Faith is not the belief that God will grant your every wish.  Faith more often means trusting in God's will, believing that He knows best.

[fenton]

\

Again, I never said that God is no longer in the "miracles business."

What we're concerned about here is the destructive nature of the doctrine that says that God will always heal physical ailments if someone has enough "faith."  The conclusion from that when someone isn't healed is that the individual wasn't healed because they didn't have enough faith or that others weren't praying hard enough.

I believed that for many years, I know exactly what you are talking about.

That kind of thing does terrible emotional and spiritual damage.

Believe me I know!!!!

Faith is not the belief that God will grant your every wish.

I know this also

 Faith more often means trusting in God's will, believing that He knows best.

as a Father He does not want His children sick

[Jimmy]

as a Father He does not want His children sick

[/quote]

As a Father He does not want His children to be faced with any adversity, whether if be sickness, injuries, accidents, poverty, loss of life or limb, hunger, thirst, etc., etc.  But that is not His primary concern.  If it were, He would have no problem in making sure that no such adversities come to His children or anyone else for that matter.   But that is not what He is all about.  Remember that Jesus castigated a certain royal official, whose son was sick at Capernaum.   He said,

"Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe." (John 4:48 )

I think no matter how you interpret that event, it was not a very complimentary statement that Jesus made to the Jews in attendance there at the time.  Nevertheless, it does speak to the fact that the primary purpose of the signs and wonders were to authenticate the message of the one doing the signs and wonders, in this case Jesus Himself.  The actual results of the signs and wonders were secondary.

[BornToReign]

all I did was post a Scripture that shows an example of the Apostle Paul not being healed of his thorn in the flesh because, as God told him, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."

That is no attack on anyone's faith... it just shows that God heals when it is His will to heal.

Lack of faith on Paul's part?  I think not.  Rather, he was not healed for the reason he was given there in 2 Corinthians 12.

"the messenger of Satan to buffet me"

His "thorn in the flesh" was not a disease.

Then, what do you make of this?

Galatians 4
¹³As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you. ¹⁴Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. ¹⁵What has happened to all your joy? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me.

This "illness" (NIV) or "infirmity of the flesh" (KJV) has long been thought to have been a problem with Paul's eyes (especially in light of his statement there in Gal. 4:15).  This was likely the same thing he was referring to in 2 Cor. 12.

It could very well be that he is referring to the after effects of the stoning he had received in Lystra (acts 14:8, 14:19). Lystra is one of the main cities in Galatia.  
Which would also follow or make this statement make sense; "and though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn or despise me"  

And verse 15. He may have been using a figure of speech just to emphasize that they were once willing to do anything for him at one time.  Much like when someone says, "I'd give my right arm for that."

Commentary:
"Paul is referring to injuries he had sustained through the stoning at Lystra to make the point that in the beginning these Galatians didn't despise Paul, as they did now, but received him as they would an angel of God. Why had they changed? Paul hadn't changed.
The gospel hadn't changed. It was these Galatians who were inconsistent.
He is putting them in remembrance of their original reception of him to rekindle their love for him and to cause them to submit themselves once again to the gospel which he had preached."

[BornToReign]

Jesus turned to her and said," take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well." and instantly the woman was made well. -Mat. 9:22

Mark 5:34

And Jesus said to him, "Go your way; your faith has made you well." and immediately he recovered his sight and followed him on the way.  -Mark 10:52

Luke 8:48

He said to him, "Rise and go your way; your faith has made you well."  -Luke 17:19

And Jesus said to him, "Recover your sight; your faith has made you well."  -Luke 18:42

He listened to Paul speaking. And Paul looking intently at him and seeing that he had faith to be made well, said in a loud voice, "Stand upright on your feet." And he sprang up and began walking.  -Acts 14:9-10

He could do no miracle there except He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. and he wondered at their unbelief. -Mark. 6:5

"But if you can do anything, have compassion on us and help us. And Jesus said to him' "If you can! All things are possible for one who believes."
Immediately the father of the child cried out, "I believe; help my unbelief!"  -Mark 9:22-24

[Elaine]

as a Father He does not want His children sick

As a Father He does not want His children to be faced with any adversity, whether if be sickness, injuries, accidents, poverty, loss of life or limb, hunger, thirst, etc., etc.  But that is not His primary concern.  If it were, He would have no problem in making sure that no such adversities come to His children or anyone else for that matter.   But that is not what He is all about.  Remember that Jesus castigated a certain royal official, whose son was sick at Capernaum.   He said,

"Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe." (John 4:48 )

I think no matter how you interpret that event, it was not a very complimentary statement that Jesus made to the Jews in attendance there at the time.  Nevertheless, it does speak to the fact that the primary purpose of the signs and wonders were to authenticate the message of the one doing the signs and wonders, in this case Jesus Himself.  The actual results of the signs and wonders were secondary.

Yes, I agree with you. I see what you see, Jimmy.

But, when I think about it for a second more, Jesus could have so easliy have "made it rain".    If signs and wonders were all He were interested in.

Indeed the heart of our Lord was personified in His Beloved Son -I don't need here to quote how 'I and my Father are One' ---we know those verses--- for our Lord to say
Give me your burdens  ---I have come for you to live life abundantly until it overflows - speaks volumns as to the heart of our Father ----who Jesus -only did the will of...No?

His ministry was a healing ministry.  Also to declare His Father's Kingdom on earth.
(As I have said before ----go to the place where Jesus comes out of the hills (like Utah) after 40 days of fasting!!!!!   And underline in your Bible  how many times He speaks of "the Kingdom".

I say that the Lord God, Father Almighty wants only health for us ----along with abundance.  ( that doesn't mean only $$ , come on)

XXOOElaine

[Lifesaver]

 

Lord Jesus redeemed all mankind in that little rescue He pulled off between Golgotha and that garden tomb.  There's no need for any more or different working of the Spirit to make people any more eligible than the blood-price, already paid, makes them.

janine.  Be careful you do not get left behind on Judgement Day by being too relaxed and thinking, like many people, that they are saved because Jesus died on the cross for us.  God did not make these statements for nothing:  "I have brought you a sword ...."  to fight obviously, "...salvation is gained by force/violence ...", "He who does not have My Spirit is none of mine, ", "Watch and pray ...".  So no, the battle was certainly not over regarding our salvation when Jesus died on the cross.

From your statement Janine, it appears you do not seek to develop any relationship with the  Holy Spirit because you think Jesus has done it all.  If you do not seek a communication/union with the Holy Spirit, how do you know how you stand with Him?

Your comunion with the  Holy Spirit should be live and refreshed every day  - not based on bible verses alone.  My relationship with the HP is very live.   As I said before I hold full conversations with God in my mind on demand on any matter.   And NO, those of you who think you are automatically saved if you have the Holy Spirit had better think again ...!  Because sometimes during my communications with the HS he rebukes me. 

From my understanding all those who ACTIVELY has the Holy Spirit - those who allows Him to communicate with them - has an opportunity to allow God to mold them for salvation.   If you submit to the rebukes and correct yourself, then there is a better chance you will be saved.  On the other hand if you ignore the rebuke and corections and continue in your usual sinful way, then the chances of saslvation are smaller, if not impossible!

So yes, you can have the Holy Spirit and still not be saved.   We all have to develop an active link with the Holy Spirit to find out where we stand on the matter.  I know exactly where I stand on the matter - and not from  bible verses.  Quoting verses from the bible will NOT clarify each of our individual positions regarding the Holy Spirit and salvation. 

Whatever quotes  is picked up from the bible, they all boil down to one thing:  we have to do God's will in order to be saved.  Only God can tell us straight whether we are doing His will or not on an individual basis.

Lifesaver

[Lifesaver]

Hi Jimmy,

That stepping up that fenton mentioned is so simple compared to what the woman did  ---bleeding for years and not being allowed to even be in the public and dragging herself through a crowd -to simply touch Jesus' garment. And then we all know what He said to her. :)

Faith is a subtle thing - belief also is ---deep in the recesses of our minds -we may harbor doubt ---and we are not even aware of it!!! One of the ways a sliver of doubt creeps in is to say ---"Well, maybe God doesn't want to heal "me". (Even though we profess to believe that He is not a respecter of persons ---STILL there can be this little remnent of questioning for ourselves.)

"Maybe I'm supposed to have cancer to learn something? Maybe I am supposed to have Lupus because I was "bad" to someone."  Maybe this or maybe that.  And we must know with all of our conviction --that No, God wants me well.
Faith comes from hearing and hearing the Word of God -I thnk that's it.   The more we dive into the healing messages we get stronger in our belief that indeed that is precisely what God wants for us ---all of us.

If the Holy Spirit wants me healed  --but I'm hanging onto my sickness for some deep psycological reason ---will I let Him work in my life?--Does that mean He is not all powerful ---no --but I'm not allowing Him in.   fenton,Born to Reign, and I may look at this differently - I don't know ---I'm open to learning.  But so far it's working for me.
I just made a post on Gen Disc ---J man has a thread on where does sickness come from...

Elaine  -  On the mystery on why some people are healed and some are not, I believe you are spot on.

So anyone who is confuseded about being healed has to  check their "doubtometer".




Lifesaver