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Author Topic: Did the power of the church die with the Apostles ?  (Read 1502 times)

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Offline Hawking

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Did the power of the church die with the Apostles ?
« on: November 03, 2011, 06:40:13 AM »
In today's modern world of religion we have heard that the power and miracles of the early church of the apostles died when they died. We have been told that, this power was only given to them for the establishment of the church and the only ones which posses this power was the [original apostles].
In spite of numerous proofs that miracles of healing and other things do exist, there are still those who will debate this issue.
On the other hand in full gospel groups there are those who say the apostles were ordained with a special anointing from Jesus which we do not have. They insist that we are below the apostles in the sight and service of the Lord Jesus. There is also a teaching that the original apostles were the only apostles that existed.
What saith you in regard to this subject matter? ::shrug::

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Did the power of the church die with the Apostles ?
« on: November 03, 2011, 06:40:13 AM »

larry2

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Re: Did the power of the church die with the Apostles ?
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2011, 07:57:42 AM »
When the perfect comes, there will no longer be a need of the gifts God has bestowed upon us. Until that time I am so thankful for all His provision to carry me through. I've experienced having immediate healings of friends in my presence through prayer, I've prayed and believe with all my heart that God raised a one year old baby from the dead with a broken neck after falling approximate ten or so feet on its head; I know that I know that God is not finished with miracles today.

I also believe that there were special commissions given to the apostles that did not involve me. For instance, I have not been told to not preach to those in Asia, and there are numerous other things. 

My thoughts.

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Re: Did the power of the church die with the Apostles ?
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2011, 07:57:42 AM »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Did the power of the church die with the Apostles ?
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2011, 08:49:43 AM »
There is no doubt that the 12 were unique and will have a unique place in heaved (special thrones)

That does not mean there are no more apostles than them. There are close to another dozen people described as apostles in the NT (it is possible one was a woman)

From the wording of Eph 4, it sounds like the office of all 5 main ministries are still needed as we have not yet attained the unity of the faith.

That said, there is little room in a non-biased looking at the NT for the idea that somehow all supernatural occurences were to vanish from the church. Tongues and Prophecy, yes, when "that which is perfect is come." (1 Cor 13) But when is that? Paul goes on to talk about seeing face to face and understanding as well as he is understood.  That all did not come with the completion of the NT cannon, or the death of the 12. The vast array of doctrinal and proceedural disputes proves that NO ONE sees face to face or understands all that well.

So no - nothing has been removed YET.

Offline Hawking

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Re: Did the power of the church die with the Apostles ?
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2011, 05:31:34 PM »
Those are very good answers and replies. Glad to hear some are still walking in faith of God's word. I looked at Stephen in the Book of Acts. He had the power of the Lord working in his life and yet he was not one of the original apostles.
I think the indwelling of the Holy Ghost who is none other than the very person of God in us is the one who appoints apostles and prophets in the work of His church on this earth. Even today I still believe there are those who operate in that administration.
I recently heard a minister of one of the  universal doctrinal churches say, God is not talking to anyone any more, he had said all he is going to say in his written word.
I shut the radio off when I heard him say that. I know that the written word will cause faith to come alive, but it is the living word from His spirit that causes faith to be.

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Re: Did the power of the church die with the Apostles ?
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2011, 05:31:34 PM »

Offline Lavender

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Re: Did the power of the church die with the Apostles ?
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2011, 09:13:58 PM »
Hawking, larry 2, and DaveW,  all I can say is AMEN, AMEN and AMEN!   Manna to all of you.    ::smile::

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Re: Did the power of the church die with the Apostles ?
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2011, 09:13:58 PM »



Offline Shodan

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Re: Did the power of the church die with the Apostles ?
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2012, 10:59:50 AM »

Offline Michael A

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Re: Did the power of the church die with the Apostles ?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2012, 03:40:23 AM »
John: 14:12
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the WORKS that I do he will do also; and GREATER WORKS than these he will do, because I go to My Father."

Jesus in this passage was referring to the many miracles that He had performed while on earth.

The following verses confirm that it was MIRACLES that our Lord Jesus did:

John 5:36
But I have a greater witness than John's; for the WORKS which the Father has given Me to finish--the very WORKS that I do--bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.

John 14:11
Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the WORKS themselves.

John 15:24
If I had not done among them the WORKS which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father.

Hebrews 2
3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with SIGNS and WONDERS, with various MIRACLES, and GIFTS of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

I remember when I first faced the Truth of Jesus own words; "...Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the WORKS that I do he will do also..."
I had not (yet) done any of the WORKS that Jesus did, and neither had anyone at the church I was attending.
So I began taking Jesus words very seriously, and I discovered that many of the teachings of "the church" (churches I attended over the early years) were NOT the teachings of Jesus Christ, but actually contradicted what He taught.

As I began holding to God's Word, God began doing miracles through me, and I came to understand what Jesus meant concerning the approval of man or the approval of God.  I seek the approval of God above all, and I do want to please Him, my Papa.  He's my Hero, and I know no one like Him.

When one of us REALLY begins to LISTEN to HIS word, He makes all things new, and the old things pass away.


Michael A

Offline SwordMaster

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Re: Did the power of the church die with the Apostles ?
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2013, 05:57:02 PM »
In today's modern world of religion we have heard that the power and miracles of the early church of the apostles died when they died. We have been told that, this power was only given to them for the establishment of the church and the only ones which posses this power was the [original apostles].

this is incorrect. It was spread abroad by Calvin and Luther during their Reformation teachings, and the ONLY reason why they taught this nonsense was because of experience (which is why we are not to take our experiences over the Word of God). Neither of them witnessed any of the gifts of the Spirit in their lives (and how could they, they were raised all their lives in a catholic society full of darkness, they were as about as far away from walking with God that you could get unless one became a satanist).

I want to assure any catholics that read this, that I am speaking of the catholic society of 500-900 years ago, which is not the same catholic church today.


In spite of numerous proofs that miracles of healing and other things do exist, there are still those who will debate this issue.

Yes, and they debate it for the same reason that Calvin and Luther debated it - because they have never witnessed the power of God in action (which makes one wonder about what kind of Spirit-void churches such people attend!). If you go to church history, you will find that when pentecostalism was first coming around in Smith Wigglesworth's day, when he decided to go and check out the meetings people told him not to go, that it was of the devil. Well, thank God that he went, and received the baptism in the Spirit and became an even greater Pentecostal preacher than he was before he went!

On the other hand in full gospel groups there are those who say the apostles were ordained with a special anointing from Jesus which we do not have. They insist that we are below the apostles in the sight and service of the Lord Jesus.

Also false, the Apostles did not receive any kind of special power, and what these folks have told you is not backed by Scripture anywhere. The power that the Apostles had came from the same source that our power comes from - the New Covenant. There is a catch, however, that most in the West do not understand, and that is the Covenant itself. One has to be walking in the New Covenant before they can have access to that power, and part of the problem today is that most in the West do not understand how one enters the Covenant, nor how one remains in the Covenant once they have entered therein - and this is all due to the masterful plan of satan - to keep the church in the West as powerless and uneducated as he can...and he is winning.

There is also a teaching that the original apostles were the only apostles that existed.

There is a unique station that the original Apostles had that did die out with them, and that aspect of their ministry has to do with the full and complete revelation of the New Covenant in Christ. But this has nothing to do with power, it has to do with unique revelation that no man today will ever receive. In other words, for example, one who has the Spiritual gift of teaching or discernment, may have their eyes opened to insight that no one else has ever seen before in their generation, but it will not be new revelation, it will only be Apostle-written (or Old Covenant written) revelation that God has specifically opened your eyes to for your day and age. There are modern day Apostles, but the apostleship that we are talking about here would be called in today's terminology as missionaries - those who start new works like church-planters or the starting up of christian facilities of education.

What saith you in regard to this subject matter? ::shrug::


Not I, but Scripture and common sense logic, and church history, says that they are wrong.

God still works today, I am living proof of this statement. God has miraculously saved me at least three times that I am aware of, from car incidents where I should have been turned into mushy meat-sauce on the inside of those cars...yet here I am...and that for a reason!

Offline FireSword

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Re: Did the power of the church die with the Apostles ?
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2013, 03:45:16 PM »
I believe in the power of God. I think we today are almost programmed  from birth to think with the mind. This has resulted in the complete eradication of all  things supernatural, this also includes the demonic, pagan powers, occult stuff. It's interesting that as the church today grows in the supernatural, so does the occult. So perhaps there is a deliberate holding back, because mankind as a whole has no faith and it's difficult for one man of faith to overcome this veil of darkness.
It seems that some of Jesus miracles were dependant on faith on heir part. One town was so faithless Jesus couldn't do many miracles there. If we look today a continent like Africa has miracles all over and also has curses all over from the witches and warlocks.

Offline RoninJedi

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Re: Did the power of the church die with the Apostles ?
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2013, 08:09:36 PM »
I was actually listening to a sermon on the radio last night where the pastor began by saying that the miracles and healings done by the apostles died with them.  That te majority of the stories heard today about healings and miracles are untrue.  I just shook my head and turned off the radio.

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." - Hebrews 13:8

'Yesterday' - so to speak - He gave power to the apostles to heal, work miracles, and drive out demons.  Some would argue this is the power of the Holy Spirit, but the Word says they didn't receive it until Jesus had resurrected.

" Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.  And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:" John 20:21-22. 

Therefore I ask, how did they use the power of the Holy Spirit when it hadn't been given to them yet?

Miracles happen every day, and they are performed by the Lord working His will through normal human beings that love him and dwell in Him, and He in them.  The same yesterday, today, and forever.