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Author Topic: Gift of Tongues  (Read 2499 times)

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Offline Jaime

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Re: Gift of Tongues
« Reply #35 on: Wed Aug 10, 2016 - 07:55:09 »
Why do some think God would need to communicate through a tongue speaker in an assembly and not just through the interpreter. Seems overly redundant to me. The value is the message not the "talent" of the tongue speaker. If foreign language hearers were in the assembly, then yes the tongue speaker AND interpreter would be necessary.

Prayer language? Whatever floats your boat, groanings, complete sentences, or silence, etc.
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 10, 2016 - 07:57:53 by Jaime »

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Re: Gift of Tongues
« Reply #35 on: Wed Aug 10, 2016 - 07:55:09 »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Gift of Tongues
« Reply #36 on: Wed Aug 10, 2016 - 08:13:57 »
Why do some think God would need to communicate through a tongue speaker in an assembly and not just through the interpreter. Seems overly redundant to me. The value is the message not the "talent" of the tongue speaker. If foreign language hearers were in the assembly, then yes the tongue speaker AND interpreter would be necessary.

Prayer language? Whatever floats your boat, groanings, complete sentences, or silence, etc.

Do realize that nowhere in scripture it is indicated that the tongue speaker himself does not understand the language he is speaking.
Paul himself says that he spoke in tongues more than anybody else, but it is a far stretch as to believe that all those times Paul was unaware what he was saying.

The interpreter simply fulfills the function as another witness, to assure that the assembly does not get duped by one person.

Scripture however says that he who speaks in a tongue edifies himself.
This means that at least the speaker does understand what he is saying. If the speaker does not understand what he is saying, he is not even able to edify himself.

And again Paul says: Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.
The conclusion is that even if people pray in tongues in private (if such a thing exists), they at least should be able to understand what they are saying.

This is exactly what is missing in almost all the cases of tongue speaking in private.
Nobody knows what they are saying. Neither the speaker himself nor anyone else is able to interpret.
That alone, in my opinion, makes tongue speaking in the vast majority of cases invalid.

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Re: Gift of Tongues
« Reply #36 on: Wed Aug 10, 2016 - 08:13:57 »

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Gift of Tongues
« Reply #37 on: Wed Aug 10, 2016 - 08:19:01 »
Why do some think God would need to communicate through a tongue speaker in an assembly and not just through the interpreter. Seems overly redundant to me. The value is the message not the "talent" of the tongue speaker. If foreign language hearers were in the assembly, then yes the tongue speaker AND interpreter would be necessary.

Prayer language? Whatever floats your boat, groanings, complete sentences, or silence, etc.

Do realize that nowhere in scripture it is indicated that the tongue speaker himself does not understand the language he is speaking.
Paul himself says that he spoke in tongues more than anybody else, but it is a far stretch as to believe that all those times Paul was unaware what he was saying.

The interpreter simply fulfills the function as another witness, to assure that the assembly does not get duped by one person.

Scripture however says that he who speaks in a tongue edifies himself.
This means that at least the speaker does understand what he is saying. If the speaker does not understand what he is saying, he is not even able to edify himself.

And again Paul says: Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.
The conclusion is that even if people pray in tongues in private (if such a thing exists), they at least should be able to understand what they are saying.

This is exactly what is missing in almost all the cases of tongue speaking in private.
Nobody knows what they are saying. Neither the speaker himself nor anyone else is able to interpret.
That alone, in my opinion, makes tongue speaking in the vast majority of cases invalid.

Interesting...thanks for sharing.  Gives me something to think about...

Offline Jaime

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Re: Gift of Tongues
« Reply #38 on: Wed Aug 10, 2016 - 08:56:30 »
Well if a tongue speaker understands what he is saying, wouldn't it be more prudent to speak in a language that everyone around could understand? I would think conveying an understandable message from God would indeed edify the speaker as much as the hearers. No need for theatrics of jibberish. Also it was my understanding that tongue speaking was not something that could be conjured but was something unexpected and spontaneous. I have heard many Pentecostals say they had to go to tongue speaking practice at church. Doesn't seem quite right to me. It cannot be something learned or perfected, it is simply the spirit falling upon.

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Re: Gift of Tongues
« Reply #38 on: Wed Aug 10, 2016 - 08:56:30 »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Gift of Tongues
« Reply #39 on: Wed Aug 10, 2016 - 09:00:36 »
Well if a tongue speaker understands what he is saying, wouldn't it be more prudent to speak in a language that everyone around could understand? I would think conveying an understandable message from God would indeed edify the speaker as much as the hearers. No need for theatrics of jibberish. Also it was my understanding that tongue speaking was not something that could be conjured but was something unexpected and spontaneous. I have heard many Pentecostals say they had to go to tongue speaking practice at church. Doesn't seem quite right to me. It cannot be something learned or perfected, it is simply the spirit falling upon.

Tongues are a distinctive, in the same way IM and the heavy emphasis on "the remission of sins" on baptism is for the CofC.  It distinguishes and puffs up a certain group as having more truth than the other.

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Re: Gift of Tongues
« Reply #39 on: Wed Aug 10, 2016 - 09:00:36 »



Offline Jaime

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Re: Gift of Tongues
« Reply #40 on: Wed Aug 10, 2016 - 09:03:49 »
Well if a tongue speaker understands what he is saying, wouldn't it be more prudent to speak in a language that everyone around could understand? I would think conveying an understandable message from God would indeed edify the speaker as much as the hearers. No need for theatrics of jibberish. Also it was my understanding that tongue speaking was not something that could be conjured but was something unexpected and spontaneous. I have heard many Pentecostals say they had to go to tongue speaking practice at church. Doesn't seem quite right to me. It cannot be something learned or perfected, it is simply the spirit falling upon.

Tongues are a distinctive, in the same way IM and the heavy emphasis on "the remission of sins" on baptism is for the CofC.  It distinguishes and puffs up a certain group as having more truth than the other.

Obviously!

Offline AVZ

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Re: Gift of Tongues
« Reply #41 on: Wed Aug 10, 2016 - 09:13:05 »
Well if a tongue speaker understands what he is saying, wouldn't it be more prudent to speak in a language that everyone around could understand? I would think conveying an understandable message from God would indeed edify the speaker as much as the hearers.

You are correct, but then it would no longer be a miracle.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Gift of Tongues
« Reply #42 on: Wed Aug 10, 2016 - 10:02:46 »
Well if a tongue speaker understands what he is saying, wouldn't it be more prudent to speak in a language that everyone around could understand? I would think conveying an understandable message from God would indeed edify the speaker as much as the hearers.

You are correct, but then it would no longer be a miracle.

Why not? Isn't any message received from God a miracle? A miracle is not identified only by undiscernable jibberish. In fact that same jibberish gives the opportunity for charlatans to step in and claim the miraculous where none existed.
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 10, 2016 - 12:44:01 by Jaime »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Gift of Tongues
« Reply #43 on: Thu Aug 11, 2016 - 00:25:34 »
Well if a tongue speaker understands what he is saying, wouldn't it be more prudent to speak in a language that everyone around could understand? I would think conveying an understandable message from God would indeed edify the speaker as much as the hearers.

You are correct, but then it would no longer be a miracle.

Why not? Isn't any message received from God a miracle? A miracle is not identified only by undiscernable jibberish. In fact that same jibberish gives the opportunity for charlatans to step in and claim the miraculous where none existed.

I think it depends on what you think happens during speaking in tongues.
If a person is "possessed" by the Holy Spirit and speaks a message in direct revelation from God, then that most certainly could be classified as a miracle...but nothing in scripture indicates that this is indeed what happens.
Speaking in tongues simply is a person speaking in a language that he did not learn before.
The message that is given could be anything, including a message the person knew all along.

Receiving a message from God may be considered a miracle, but its not how we classify it.
The prophets received direct messages from God, but we don't consider prophets performers of miracles.
Moses received the Ten Commandments from God directly, yet we do not say that Moses performed the miracle of the Ten Commandments.

You know the message of the gospel. Lets imagine you stand up in church and preach the gospel in Finnish (a language you never learned).
Then the miracle would be you speaking in Finnish and you would be speaking in tongues.
Now if you preach the same message in English, nobody would consider that a miracle.

Most people think that during speaking in tongues some attributes need to be satisfied:

1. There must be a mysterious message, something direct from God presented to the speaker in the spur of the moment.
2. There must be an unintelligible language, mystery speech.
3. The language spoken is not understood by the utterer, hence a translator should be present who makes sense of the message.
4. If no translator is present then the "feel good" element of speaking in tongues is considered the edification.

Scripture does not support these assumptions.
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 11, 2016 - 00:32:06 by AVZ »

Offline NorrinRadd

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Re: Gift of Tongues
« Reply #44 on: Thu Sep 22, 2016 - 08:25:29 »
For the purposes of this discussion, how are we defining "in the assembly"?

 

     
anything