I Used to be a Pentecostal....BUT, No More

[Cobalt1959]

Actually, I am trying to figure out a way to ignore her, but she keeps posting to me.

At any rate, thanks for your opinion on my personal character. I know others who would agree with you, and they also deny that tongues is the initial evidence of Spirit Baptism. Hmm... so if you want to believe I only accept Classical Pentecostal theology because I am defective.... well, it's OK with me. Tyndale and Luther never let these things upset them either.

I notice you totally ignore that with which you do not want to deal with, and I see that you still can't actually deal with the gist of what is said, you simply attempt to smear the person.  

What exactly would be "classical" pentecostal theology?  Is that some kind of greatest hits album?  Despite bleatings by you to the contrary, different pentecostal denominations have different doctrine.  There is not one pentecostal doctrine that fits all just as there is not one single form of Protestant doctrine.  As for Tyndale and Luther, why do you keep dragging them into the discussion?  They are both dead, I don't think they will be joining the conversation.  Luther was a raging anti-semitic, so I don't think I'd be holding him up as a spotless role model.  That is kind of like the people who label themselves Calvinist, failing to realize they have branded themselves as followers of a man who had people killed for not believeing the way he did.  Nice.

Defective?  Once again, ad hominem because I never said you were defective, I said you were rude, so if you have a dictionary handy, look up both words so you can understand the difference.  All I gather from your rather dis-jointed post is that, evidently, if you speak in tongues, you are allowed to be rude and carry around a big persecution complex.  How does that fit in with the Classical Pentecostal hit parade?  Being rude is always unaceptable, especially when dealing with fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, but hey, maybe according to your flavor-of-the-month Classical Pentecostal doctrine, we aren't brothers and sisters in Christ because we don't speak in tongues?  Only you do not know whether we do or not, which would still leave your behavior unacceptable.  Hmmm. . .  I guess it's also hard for you to gauge whether your behavior is poor or not without gauging it according to what Tyndale or Luther would or would not have said or done.  Doesn't that make things a bit difficult in a supermarket or fast food restaraunt?  Or do you have crib notes that say "Luther would have advocated having the non-tongues-speaking grocery stocker burned at the stake."  So you can then tell the person "Yeah, well you're lucky Luther isn't here because, he would have had you burned at the stake!"  I'll bet that would make for some interesting conversations.  Behave whatever way you see fit, and use whatever baseless rational to do so, you will be the one who answers for it, but don't expect everyone to just take it.

New!  Classical Pentecostal Doctrine Lite!  Same great doctrine without all the love and respect.  

[vonny]

Just because one has not experienced what Vonny has does not in any way give one the right to 'covertly' call Vonny a liar.    Why not be thankfull the churches you have been to are pleasent? 

He might have won me over to listen to him had he simply thought of the possibility that I was representing what I know to be Pentecostal theology, and am genuinely ignorant as he sees it, rather than assuming that I was false. I've got no reason to lie;I'm a mother, a real person,  I've been a poster on the forums for months, I've been open about my life on the forums, and most importantly, I love Jesus very much and take growing to be like him seriously. Jesus definitely taught that lying is sin and not the kind of behaviour that befits a born again child of God. One day, I'd like to discuss with MPaul without the suspicion involved, as he seems like an intelligent man.

I had a look through many of the articles on MPaul's site, and I really did enjoy them. I did, however, stumble across a statement that cessationism (or I'm assuming anything akin to it) meant that one fulfilled the prophetic description in 2 Timothy 3:5

holding a form of godliness, but having denied the power thereof: from these also turn away.

I actually don't think that fits the context, respectfully, and unfairly lumps many truly born again, fruitful believers into the category of one who fits this category:

But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, 7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth

I don't love pleasue more than God, or deny that godliness is truly inward. I don't live an immoral life all the while claiming to know God.

Maybe room for a discussion on that topic elsewhere?

 

The above might be an insight into why the discussion went the way it did. Yet, I do know the power of Christ to renew me inwardly day by day, heart being drawn closer and desiring to grow in grace and fruitfulness. How on earth would that disqualify me from being called a believer, just because I do not speak in tongues?


Anyway, as I said earlier, be blessed.

Perhaps another discussion, another day, on the theology forum.

[eveh]

If you have not received the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues (the witness) then you are not in the body of Christ. The baptism places you in the body and without his spirit you are none of his. You cannot call him Lord except by the Holy Ghost. Many will say Lord, Lord, and he will say I never knew you.

[Eagle]

If you have not received the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues (the witness) then you are not in the body of Christ. The baptism places you in the body and without his spirit you are none of his. You cannot call him Lord except by the Holy Ghost. Many will say Lord, Lord, and he will say I never knew you.

The above is why i am ashamed to call my self penticostal.

[eveh]

Then it will be your loss on Judgement Day. I am telling you the truth. Are you also ashamed to speak in tongues? If I am wrong then you will be fine,,,,,,,,but if I am right,,,where will you be on Judgement Day? I am not being self righteous as you might believe. I am telling you what I know from my own experience and nearly a lifetime of serving God. Dismiss if you wish but when you stand before God, you can't say you have not even heard if there be a Holy Ghost. Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? Read Acts chapter ten.

[Eagle]

What if someone had their tongue cut out,  like maybe cancer?  The Blood of Christ is the way to heaven not mans tongue. 

Ashamed of tongues no. Ashamed of what people have done with them YES.

1Co 13:1  Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.


1Co 13:4  Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5  Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6  Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7  Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8  Charity never faileth:

Luk 18:11  The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12  I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13  And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14  I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

[eveh]

Paul obviously spoke in tongues and yet he never gave a message or prophecy in church. Then what tongue was he speaking if it wasn't the gift of tongues? You are missing the fact that one is the tongue you receive when the Holy Ghost enters your body. The other is a Gift for the edification of the church's. One tongue is between you and God and only he understands.  It is to build you up and edify you. The Gift of tongues is to give a message to the church, to lift them up and edify them. For that Gift, there must be someone who can tell you what the person speaking in tongues is saying to the church. The tongue between you and God needs no interpreter.

[Eagle]

When did Paul tell you he never gave a message or prophecy? 


Gal 6:14  But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

[Brooktrout]

I respectfully disagree with the fact that you have to speak in tongues to have the Holy Spirit present. I know there is scripture that says to have an interpretor present when someone is speaking in tongues and I have yet to see this. We are also commanded to worship in an orderly fashion and quite often it is chaos. God is a God of order. Now I am not saying all Pentacostal churches are like this, but I have visited many and this is what I have seen. Most I have heard sound alike and you hear the same sounds (cannot say if they are words) over and over again without much deviation. Now I am not trying to attack or offend anyone and if that is what you believe I respect that. I have found that so many are leaning toward the experiential and feelings and taking scripture out of context. We do not go by experience or feelings, we go by what scripture says. Now Abraham was blessed because he believed God and had faith. I do not need to have experiences to have faith or the Holy Spirit. It is a simple Gospel message and I stand on that. I believe that God loves it when we say "Even if I do not see miracles, signs, and wonders, I still believe you Lord". I believe if someone truly speaks in tongues they are speaking in a valid language like French, Chinese, Farsi, etc. that they normally cannot speak in normal circumstances. What good is it if someone is speaking/praying in some unknown language but nobody can understand? How does this edify the church? If someone was visiting from Iran and someone started praying in Farsi, and that person was unsaved, now that makes much more sense because God is a God of order.

1 Corinthians 13
Love
 1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

1 Corinthians 14:6 (New International Version)

 6Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?


http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/90-58_How-Do-Spiritual-Gifts-Operate?q=Speaking+in+Tongues

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/1871_The-Truth-About-Tongues-Part-1?q=Speaking+in+Tongues

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/1872_The-Truth-About-Tongues-Part-2?q=Speaking+in+Tongues

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/1873_The-Truth-About-Tongues-Part-3?q=Speaking+in+Tongues

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/1874_The-Truth-About-Tongues-Part-4?q=Speaking+in+Tongues

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/1214_Miracles-Healings-and-Tongues?q=Speaking+in+Tongues

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Bible+Introductions/MSB46_First-Corinthians

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/90-59_What-Was-Happening-in-the-Early-Church?q=Speaking+in+Tongues

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermon+Series/219_Charismatic-Chaos

[Eagle]

Brooktrout,

   Tall pines,  camp fire under frying potatoes, trout floured, corn mealed ready for the pan....


Sixty plus years ago i was born into a wonderful Pentecostal family Dad was a preacher....I have seen all sides of 'tongues'. I have seen some mighty works of God through many folks... I have seen tongue talkers on Sunday night who beat their wife on Saturday.

Some folks use tongues as a crutch some find it edifying. Please remember if a single person is edified that single person is a part of the BODY.  

For the most part i agree and the languages.  Like your on a plane and your seat mate is French and you find your self sharing the plan of salvation in French!

You posted the verse  1 Cor 13;1  this first line is one of the catchers  (1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels) angels being to operative word.  This is where ,what you are posting about is justified.

Most tongue talkers will sing   " Nothing but the Blood of Jesus" yet they want to say one must speak in tongues to be saved.

Some folks need signs and wonders today just as the did when Jesus walked this earth. Some don't, God is good to His kids.

1Co 13:1  Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.  

1Co 14:39  Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.


The above verses are both God's Word , i believe they carry the same weight.  

As far as emotions.. What ever can be more emotional then His great love for us. Loving Him because He first loved us is very much emotion.

Just try to explane to your wife/husband you love her without showing emotion. (hint)
she/he wont believe you....

[Brooktrout]

Hi Eagle and I truly respect your opinion, but it was not meant to confuse love and regular human emotion. I do understand what you are saying, but I am talking about the Benny Hinn's, Todd Bentley's, kenneth Copeland's, and many more of the world. I hope you are not misunderstanding me and are not under the impression that I think ALL Pentacostal's are like this. I really love the Book oF Job and all he went through, expecially when he said "Though he may slay me, yet I will trust him". Sometimes all we have to go on is faith and I believe God loves that. When someone's faith is based on just miracles, signs and wonder's then where is the faith of belief and scripture? I feel like I am spirit filled, and do not speak in tongue's but think the gift of tongue's has been perverted and taken out of context.

I really appreciate your opinion Eagle and thank you for your comments.

Your SIC,
Brooktrout

PS I work for a wonderful SIC who is Pentacostal and I love her to pieces. She does dissect scripture and strives to keep things in context and based strictly on scripture.

[Eagle]

Brooktrout, 

you are correct.... 

Benny Hinn's, Todd Bentley's, kenneth Copeland's, and many more of the world.Benny Hinn's, Todd Bentley's, kenneth Copeland's, and many more of the world.

they are of the 'world' their fruits have shown through...

Thanks for the pleasent exchange!     

[Brooktrout]

God Bless you Eagle and have a BLESSED day!

[Visionary]

A man is walking through fire when he addresses denominations but saints I have something to tell you.
Denominations are divisions. There is no agreement on doctrine! The church that belongs to God will not call itself by any mainstream denomination but it is in fact THE CHURCH OF THE FIRST BORN FROM THE DEAD. Hebrews 12:23
How do I know this? Once I was dead but now I am alive! Romans 6:3-13 When we lived ignorance of God being hated and hating one another envying and provoking living for our own evil desires we were by nature objects of wrath! But when Christ appeared he saved us not because of what we did but because of his own mercy and grace.
He put a new heart and a new spirit in us that we should no longer live for ourselves but for him who died for us. You are his witnesses that he is God, the only Savior.
You have been brought from death to life being renewed in mind being transformed into the likeness of his Son. He chose to give us birth through the word of truth.
He put a seal on us, the Holy Spirit in us as a deposit guaranteeing the inheritance to come. You have been born again not from perishable seed but of living seed-the word of God.
There is no denomination in Christ!!! Christ in you, the hope of glory!
And this is eternal life-knowing the Father and the Son. This is what he has promised us-even eternal life. He promised! They will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest! God bless you all.
I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me. Isaiah 65:1

[Visionary]

Speaking of tongues made me remember something that happened in service.
Yes I also find it odd if all are speaking in tongues by one spirit in an entirely english congregation then why are they not all speaking the same thing?
Recorded in the book of Acts in a crowd of many languages those who spoke in tongues spoke in different languages because multiple languaged people were present and each heard the wonders of God in their own language.
I do speak in tongues myself but rarely. I find it occurs while in despair.
Now to a testimony while in service. The man standing beside me was repeating the same word over and over loudly and his tone was unsettling. I prayed briefly to the Lord. The mans voice quieted and suddenly I was flat on my back; as they call slain in the Spirit having a peace come over me when the mans voice stilled. I could not get up!!!! I could not move a muscle!!! In the presence of the Lord as recorded you are as a dead man. After some time I regained my strength and was able to rise.