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Author Topic: Can a Christian support evolution?  (Read 22785 times)

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Offline SwordMaster

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #350 on: Fri Apr 19, 2019 - 19:19:36 »
Barbarian said...

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Ah, good.   You remembered something.  As I showed you, "similarities" don't necessarily mean relatedness.   Homologies do.   As we discussed earlier, often organisms showing homologies will look quite different from each other, like whales and bats.   "Similarity", such as bats and birds, is not a sign of relatedness.


More game playing...

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Homology, in biology, similarity of the structure, physiology, or development of different species of organisms based upon their descent from a common evolutionary ancestor.

Care to re-spin that last statement? It continues...

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Thus the forelimbs of such widely differing mammals as humans, bats, and deer are homologous; the form of construction and the number of bones in these varying limbs are practically identical, and represent adaptive modifications of the forelimb structure of their common early mammalian ancestors.

Again...just nonsense spun to the naive to make TOE seem like a reality. The fact that dogs, cats, deer, elephants, and lions all have four legs just means that they have four legs, it does not mean that they all had evolutionary ancestors...again, that is putting the cart before the horse. Using evolution as an explanation for things before it has even been proven (which TOEists have done since Mayr's days) IS putting the cart before the horse, and using the cart to explain the horse.

Its nonsense, pure and simple, put into "matter-of-fact" statements when those statements are not based upon facts, but rather on assumptions. To put it plainly, evolutionists outright lie to the public, calling assumptions, suppositions, and educated "guesses" as facts when they are not facts.

Homology is "science" based upon similarity...care to try again?






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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #350 on: Fri Apr 19, 2019 - 19:19:36 »

Offline SwordMaster

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #351 on: Fri Apr 19, 2019 - 19:23:50 »
Barb said...

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Quote

   
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...nor the timing mechanism that had to have devoloped in an accidental, evolutionary way.


That's a common myth YE creationists have.   Darwin's great discovery was that it isn't accidental.

Wow, are you a PE guy? I don't remember seeing your answer the last time I asked you. Darwin discovered nothing about his libtard theory being non-accidental, and evolutionist's for 40 years have been writing that evolution is pushed forward by accidental mutational changes (which is a lie in itself). that is the whole point between the definition of a mutation and non-mutational adaptive changes that are not accidental.

You are either very confused within your own stuff, or you are playing more games. Which is it?


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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #351 on: Fri Apr 19, 2019 - 19:23:50 »

Offline Alan

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #352 on: Fri Apr 19, 2019 - 20:08:50 »
Sorry that none of this makes sense to you Swordmaster, hopefully you'll come to understand what is being taught to you, there is a wealth of information being shared here.

Offline The Barbarian

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #353 on: Fri Apr 19, 2019 - 22:50:01 »
Wrong, it does not prove (or confirm) that cellular organelles came about by being "swallowed" by other cells, that is not what has been demonstrated.

The process has even been directly observed to happen, as you have seen.   No point in denying something we observed to happen;

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What has been demonstrated is that some organelles have different DNA for some reason

Circular bacterial DNA, in fact, And not surprisingly, mitochondria are bacteria-sized and shaped.  Chloroplasts have the same sort of DNA, but more like that of photosynthetic prokaryotes:

Chloroplasts are one of many types of organelles in the plant cell. They are considered to have originated from cyanobacteria through endosymbiosis—when a eukaryotic cell engulfed a photosynthesizing cyanobacterium that became a permanent resident in the cell. Mitochondria are thought to have come from a similar event, where an aerobic prokaryote was engulfed.[9] This origin of chloroplasts was first suggested by the Russian biologist Konstantin Mereschkowski in 1905[10] after Andreas Schimper observed in 1883 that chloroplasts closely resemble cyanobacteria.[5] Chloroplasts are only found in plants, algae,[11] and the amoeboid Paulinella chromatophora.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroplast

So we have these organelles in eukaryotic cells that look like bacteria, have bacterial DNA, are bacterial sized, and have many of the characteristics of bacteria.   And we have directly observed such endosymbiosis taking place in nature.      However, when YE creationists are bias defenders,  not truth seekers, they just deny the evidence.
 
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The truth is always found in the details.

You seem to have been set off by the details I showed you.   I don't think you mean to deceive us; I really think you are so indoctrinated that you are unable to accept the facts I've shown you.



 
 

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #353 on: Fri Apr 19, 2019 - 22:50:01 »

Offline The Barbarian

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #354 on: Fri Apr 19, 2019 - 22:56:01 »
(Confusion about evolution being "accidental.")
 
Barbarian observes:
That's a common myth YE creationists have.   Darwin's great discovery was that it isn't accidental.

Wow, are you a PE guy?

CP/M originally.   You?

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I don't remember seeing your answer the last time I asked you.

Don't remember you bringing it up.

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Darwin discovered nothing about his libtard theory being non-accidental

You've been misled again.  Natural selection is the antithesis of randomness.

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and evolutionist's for 40 years have been writing that evolution is pushed forward by accidental mutational changes

Like the serpent in the garden, your sources lied to you by telling you half the truth.   Random mutation and natural selection is a non-random process.  That's why engineers copy the process to solve problems that are too difficult for design. 

 You are  very confused about the most basic things in biology.   As I said, if you did some reading, it would help you a lot in these discussions.
 

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #354 on: Fri Apr 19, 2019 - 22:56:01 »



Offline The Barbarian

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #355 on: Fri Apr 19, 2019 - 23:06:27 »
Barbarian explains that it is homologies, not "similarities" that demonstrate common descent)
Organisms that "look similar" (bats and birds, sharks and whales, etc.) don't show common descent, while very dissimilar organisms like bats and whales do show common descent because of homologies they share, such as hair, limb bones, and so on.

More game playing...

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Again...just nonsense spun to the naive to make TOE seem like a reality. The fact that dogs, cats, deer, elephants, and lions all have four legs just means that they have four legs, it does not mean that they all had evolutionary ancestors...

It merely means they are all descendants of the first tetrapods.   On the other hand, the fact that all have one bone in the lower jaw, and three bones in the middle ear, demonstrates that they all evolved from a common ancestor that was a primitive mammal.    You're once again going with "looks like" (analogous structure) with the homologies that show common descent.  Hence mole diggers, horse's legs, bat's wings, and whale flippers show common descent, even though they don't "look similar."

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Its nonsense, pure and simple,

It's just a fact.   And much later, DNA analyses confirmed the phylogenies based on homology.   So there's really no point in denying it.   We can confirm that DNA shows common descent, since we can test that by checking DNA of organisms of known descent.

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Homology is "science" based upon similarity...

You're confusing "looks like" and "similarities" with homologies.    I really don't know how to make it any simpler for you.    I've spoken to groups of middle school kids who had no problem grasping the differences.



 

Offline Ohan

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #356 on: Mon Apr 29, 2019 - 00:53:44 »
All similarities show the work of the designer Snakes, Snails, Christians and Atheists came from the same factory ~ so to speak ```

Offline The Barbarian

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #357 on: Mon Apr 29, 2019 - 12:18:03 »
I'm extremely aware of all that.  I studied that stuff for years.  I taught it!  It should be mentioned, though, that species is not at all the same as the biblical 'kind.'  The 'kind' would be much more akin to a family or sub-family in our current taxonomic classification system.  Equine, bovine, feline, canine, etc.

Yes.   Years ago, I discussed this via email with John Woodmorappe (of the Ark Feasibility Study).  He confirmed to me what you've said here; in creationist terms, the evolution of new species, genera, and families, according to him, is not evolution as creationists see it.  For them, it's merely variation within a kind.    He came to this conclusion, I think, because there was no other way to make enough room on the Ark.

The problem, from a biologist's standpoint, is that there are all sorts of transitional forms between families or orders. (some creationists apparently draw the line at families, rather than orders as the limits of "kinds")   This problem, which remains for YE creationists, was discussed in Kurt Wise's  Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms.

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I don't know anyone who is at all versed in the argument between evolution and creation trying to equate kind with species

Right.   The ICR and AIG both acknowledge the fact of new species evolving.

 

Offline The Barbarian

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #358 on: Mon Apr 29, 2019 - 12:20:27 »
All similarities show the work of the designer Snakes, Snails, Christians and Atheists came from the same factory ~ so to speak ```

No.   "Similarities" would lead you astray.   Homologies indicate common descent, but "looks like" will not, in most cases.   Hence "similarities" would tell you that bats and birds are a kind, while homologies show that bats and whales are more closely related than bats and birds.


Offline The Barbarian

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #359 on: Mon Apr 29, 2019 - 12:23:14 »
Matthew 5:22 But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Let God say it.   I'll leave that to Him.  Clearly, it's not for us to say.

Offline Ohan

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #360 on: Tue Apr 30, 2019 - 17:21:53 »
At times the Lord is quoted correctly ~ I should, we should forgive our brother ~ I love my brothers and sisters ~ militant atheists ~ anything or one who hates Christ or Christians ~ or my country for that matter is not my brother ~ and their action against my brother or sister and/or our God is an act against me ~ that goes for anyone who hates my country as well ~ no brother would try to hurt or destroy our country or take down the President we worked do hard to install ```





Offline The Barbarian

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #361 on: Tue Apr 30, 2019 - 20:11:38 »
that goes for anyone who hates my country as well ~ no brother would try to hurt or destroy our country or take down the President we worked do hard to install

There were people who said the same about Obama.   And they were just as misguided as you are.    We don't owe loyalty to a man; Americans only owe loyalty to the Constitution.   And those who would overturn it, are the enemies of America.


Offline Ohan

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #362 on: Thu May 09, 2019 - 19:16:18 »
Sure we can support evolution ~ well, not the the atheist wild imaginings ~ but like a child evolving into a fine man ~ or an atheist involving into a fat drunken slob or a into a clever thief ~ or a puppy growing to a good looking healthy animal ```

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #363 on: Thu May 09, 2019 - 19:36:00 »
There were people who said the same about Obama.   And they were just as misguided as you are.    We don't owe loyalty to a man; Americans only owe loyalty to the Constitution.   And those who would overturn it, are the enemies of America.

Yes, those like Obama, who try to overturn the Constitution are the enemies of America.

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #364 on: Thu May 09, 2019 - 19:45:20 »
You'r right about that ~ The Constitution is the Heart of America ~ funny you should know that ```

Offline seekingHiswisdom

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #365 on: Thu May 09, 2019 - 21:00:42 »
You'r right about that ~ The Constitution is the Heart of America ~ funny you should know that ```

Why would you say that?

Texas Conservative is as strong a patriot as I am. And I would say as knowledgeable about the  US constitution as anyone on these
boards. No person is above it.

Now,  ::backontopic::  This conversation could not be farther from the OP.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #366 on: Fri May 10, 2019 - 08:07:17 »
There were people who said the same about Obama.   And they were just as misguided as you are.    We don't owe loyalty to a man; Americans only owe loyalty to the Constitution.   And those who would overturn it, are the enemies of America.
That, if you have been paying any attention at all to what has been going on, is precisely what the Left is all about.  That has been going on since the very beginning.  The troubling thing is that now the Democrat Party has taken up the banner of the Left.  The constitution is under open and direct attack by the Democrats, whether it is the first amendment, the second amendment, the electoral college, the foundational element of "innocent until proven guilty" of constitutional law, the open borders, sanctuary cities, free and open murder of the unborn and just born, the removal of all references to God from official words and deeds, on and on and on.  The Left and hence the Democrats, who have taken up the Left's agenda, are indeed working very hard to overturn the Constitution.

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #367 on: Mon May 13, 2019 - 11:43:56 »
Why would you say that?

Texas Conservative is as strong a patriot as I am. And I would say as knowledgeable about the  US constitution as anyone on these
boards. No person is above it.

Now,  ::backontopic::  This conversation could not be farther from the OP.


Please understand ~ I wasn't talking of you ~ I was posting in reply to barbarians post ~ who mentions the Constitution while championing obamo ```

Offline The Barbarian

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #368 on: Sat May 18, 2019 - 22:31:14 »
Barbarian observes:
There were people who said the same about Obama.   And they were just as misguided as you are.    We don't owe loyalty to a man; Americans only owe loyalty to the Constitution.   And those who would overturn it, are the enemies of America.

That, if you have been paying any attention at all to what has been going on, is precisely what the Left is all about.

Sadly yes.   While the left is now the primary supporter of Constitutional rights, it is true that there are still many, many conservatives who also see their first loyalty to the Constitution.   Judge Napolitano, of Fox News, for example.   But not as many as just a few years ago.   Justice Scalia and John McCain were two strong examples.   Reagan and Goldwater would be sickened at what's happened.   Wm. F. Buckley was sickened by it.   Those guys are gone, and there is no one to replace them.

Judge Napolitano: Trump has been abandoning separation of powers Madison so carefully crafted

May. 15, 2019 - 3:08 - Judge Napolitano's Chambers: Judge Andrew Napolitano explains how President Trump violated the separation of powers three times within the past week.
https://video.foxnews.com/v/6037237643001/#sp=show-clips
 


 
« Last Edit: Sat May 18, 2019 - 22:37:58 by The Barbarian »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #369 on: Sun May 19, 2019 - 06:13:23 »
While the left is now the primary supporter of Constitutional rights......
Wow, I can't believe that anyone would say that or think that.  The Left is fighting tooth and nail to get rid of the Constitution.  Both the First and Second Amendments are openly under attack on a daily basis by the Left, and while neither have been totally eliminated, it is only a matter of time if the Democrats gain control of the Senate and the Presidency and maintain control of the House.  The Left is a blight on this country, the likes of which, if not defeated, will destroy this country.
 
Progressivism, Socialism, Communism, Fascism, Naziism are all just variants of Leftism.

Online Jaime

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #370 on: Sun May 19, 2019 - 06:22:08 »
That’s the way I look at it 4WD!

The Left saying they are pro-constitution is similar to Obama and Biden claiming Trump’s good economy is THEIR doing. I say NO Mr. Obama, you did not build that. And you DID separate families on the border contrary to what Joe Biden says. Of course the truth checkers will be silent.
« Last Edit: Sun May 19, 2019 - 07:03:02 by Jaime »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #371 on: Sun May 19, 2019 - 06:49:39 »
Judge Napolitano: Trump has been abandoning separation of powers Madison so carefully crafted

May. 15, 2019 - 3:08 - Judge Napolitano's Chambers: Judge Andrew Napolitano explains how President Trump violated the separation of powers three times within the past week.
https://video.foxnews.com/v/6037237643001/#sp=show-clips
That has been going on for a long long time now.  As Napolitano said, it goes back to at least Woodrow Wilson.  The problem is not really with the President; rather it lies with the congress.  It is not so much that it has conceded its power to the President directly; rather, congress has conceded its power to the national government agencies.  Congress passes laws, with wide ranging edicts and then lets the agencies define the specifics.  But of course the agencies are under the direction of the Cabinets and hence the President.  Add to that the Leftist, activist courts and the only way forward is down.  We are awash in government employees at the national, state and local levels with just under 17% of the workforce in government jobs; one in six workers gets paid by the government and that doesn't include Social Security or other government payouts.  It is ludicrous.  It can't work.

Offline The Barbarian

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #372 on: Sun May 19, 2019 - 09:07:08 »
That makes some sense.   Surprisingly, the distribution of government workers by state isn't at all what I thought it would be:


The federal workforce has declined as a percent of the U.S. population:
https://historyinpieces.com/research/federal-personnel-numbers-1962

So that's some comfort, although perhaps not the entire answer.    States seem to be increasing their share, and it's not just "liberal" states.


Offline The Barbarian

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #373 on: Sun May 19, 2019 - 09:09:59 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #374 on: Sun May 19, 2019 - 09:20:21 »
Perhaps the ratio of government workers to population may be decreasing.  But the ratio of government workers to non-government workers is most telling.  Government workers never increase wealth, they only take wealth and redistribute some of it.  Admittedly some government workers are necessary; but one-sixth of the working population?  I don't think so, not under any circumstances.

Offline The Barbarian

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #375 on: Wed Jun 05, 2019 - 08:33:17 »
The problem is not the federal government, but primarily state and local governments.    Not surprisingly, education dwarfs all others:
https://www.governing.com/gov-data/public-workforce-salaries/states-most-government-workers-public-employees-by-job-type.html

If you're of a libertarian persuasion, this data would be encouraging:


And "non-military" federal employment has a bit of a surprise, too:


Turns out, we pay more for defense and security than for all other purposes, combined.



Offline seekingHiswisdom

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #376 on: Wed Jun 05, 2019 - 09:00:52 »


It merely means they are all descendants of the first tetrapods.   On the other hand, the fact that all have one bone in the lower jaw, and three bones in the middle ear, demonstrates that they all evolved from a common ancestor that was a primitive mammal.



Why?

Why could there not have been a primitive mammal created and then a cat, a dog or whatever being created each separately?

Why does every thing hand on DNA and what other "links" evolutionists use to say first there was one and then that morphed into 2 4 and eventually 400
things.

Why cannot it not be accepted that in "ingredients" needed to make something alive were actually selected based on what was being created and
the similarities stop there?


Offline 4WD

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #377 on: Wed Jun 05, 2019 - 09:24:47 »
Why?

Why could there not have been a primitive mammal created and then a cat, a dog or whatever being created each separately?

Why does every thing hand on DNA and what other "links" evolutionists use to say first there was one and then that morphed into 2 4 and eventually 400
things.

Why cannot it not be accepted that in "ingredients" needed to make something alive were actually selected based on what was being created and
the similarities stop there?
I will let The Barbarian answer for himself here.  But I will simply add that what you have asked is absolutely possible.  But neither the Bible nor the existing evidence says or even suggests that is what occurred.

Offline seekingHiswisdom

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #378 on: Wed Jun 05, 2019 - 10:07:46 »
I will let The Barbarian answer for himself here.  But I will simply add that what you have asked is absolutely possible. .

The bible says nothing other then God creted animals on day 6  and man on day 6  and nary a word about anything going on before what is commonly refered to as creation week.

You say

 "But neither the Bible nor the existing evidence says or even suggests that is what occurred'

Not exactly accurate because genesis  1: 24  Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind"; and it was so

Which certainly would indicate God said  Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind. (Followed by man). I suppose an argument could be made that from the evolutionary process, that was already in the works, that God at that point was collecting like things together?

Still does not explain when human spirit came into human beings.

Or does it?

Could that in fact be what happened when in Genesis 2 : 7And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. ?

I really do not think so. I am not YE except when it comes to man.






Offline The Barbarian

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #379 on: Wed Jun 05, 2019 - 10:15:02 »
Barbarian observes:
It merely means they are all descendants of the first tetrapods.   On the other hand, the fact that all have one bone in the lower jaw, and three bones in the middle ear, demonstrates that they all evolved from a common ancestor that was a primitive mammal.

Why?

Genetics.  The developmental genes show the ancestry of tetrapods.  It was a revelation the first time I saw the embryonic development of the mammalian jaw and ear.  Now, researchers have experimented with this evolutionary change to show how it came about:

Three tiny bones in the middle ear of mammals form a mechanism that converts the air vibrations of sound into the electrical impulses understood by the brain. Three of these bones are known by names that describe their shapes, either in Latin or in English: the malleus (hammer), incus (anvil), and stapes (stirrup). In the simpler ears of reptiles, as well as the shared ancestors of both groups, only the stapes is found in the middle ear, while analogs of the malleus and incus form part of the jaw.

The sharp contrast between the precise structure of these tiny mammalian bones and their non-auditory reptilian counterparts drew the attention of Associate Professor of Animal Biology Karen Sears and postdoctoral researcher Daniel Urban, who led the study. Sears is a member of the Carl R. Woese Institute for Genomic Biology (IGB); Urban is an IGB Fellow.

“We came at this project through the approach of evolutionary developmental biology (evo-devo), which looks at the development of an organism . . . to help understand its evolutionary history,” said Urban, explaining their experimental approach. An exciting aspect of the project for him was that it integrated “aspects of paleontology, cellular and molecular biology, developmental biology, and more. We’re looking at the problem from more than one angle, utilizing all of these methods to solve the puzzle.”

When mammalian middle ear bones develop, they begin as part of the arch of cartilage that makes up the embryonic jaw. In reptiles, these structures remain connected to the jaw as developmental processes gradually convert the cartilage to bone. In mammals, cells within a section of the developing jaw called Meckel’s cartilage disappear as the animal grows, freeing the malleus and incus (the hammer and anvil) to reach their positions in the middle ear.

To get a better idea of how the mammalian ear might have evolved, Sears, Urban and their colleagues chose to study the gray short-tailed opossum, a small and charismatic South American marsupial whose key stages of jaw and ear development take place gradually and after birth.

The group first detailed the anatomical progression of middle ear development in their opossums, capturing images that revealed the changing architecture of cartilage and bone. They observed that the progression of structures in the developing opossum jaw and ear appeared to re-enact the evolutionary progression of these structures in the mammalian fossil record.

“It was truly remarkable how well the developmental stages of our extant opossum model organism matched up with the transitional fossils . . . this makes our study organism, the gray short-tailed opossum, a fantastic living model to aid in the understanding of development of long extinct taxa,” Urban said. “By using this modern analogue, we can learn so much more about these earlier species and the origins of mammals.”

The team also explored changes in gene activity and individual cells that occurred during the breakdown of Meckel’s cartilage. They identified a set of genes whose increased activity was correlated with the self-destruction of the cells that connect the future jaw to the future ear.

Among these genes, the researchers focused on a gene called TGF-β for further investigation. When they treated developing opossums with a drug that blocks the signaling of the TGF-β protein, the death of cells within Meckel’s cartilage was prevented, and the malleus and incus remained a part of the jaw. With one tweak of gene activity, this one detail of anatomy appeared to have slid backward through evolutionary time.

https://www.igb.illinois.edu/article/developing-ears-opossums-echoes-evolutionary-history

There, in our genes, is the story of how mammals came to be.   

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Why could there not have been a primitive mammal created and then a cat, a dog or whatever

There was.  He just used a natural process to do them.   That's how He does most things in this world.

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Why does every thing hand on DNA and what other "links" evolutionists use to say first there was one and then that morphed into 2 4 and eventually 400  things.

It's not just genetics.   Yes, we know that DNA relatedness indicates common descent, because we can test that with organisms of known descent.   But it's also found in the fossil record, in observed evolution, and in the way that older characteristics are still encoded in our genes so that often a slight change in alleles can restore the old characteristics.

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Why cannot it not be accepted that in "ingredients" needed to make something alive were actually selected based on what was being created and the similarities stop there?

As 4WD says, there's no scriptural support for that idea.   And all the evidence shows otherwise.


Offline The Barbarian

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #380 on: Wed Jun 05, 2019 - 10:19:30 »
The bible says nothing other then God creted animals on day 6  and man on day 6  and nary a word about anything going on before what is commonly refered to as creation week.

You say

 "But neither the Bible nor the existing evidence says or even suggests that is what occurred'

Not exactly accurate because genesis  1: 24  Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind"; and it was so

Yes.   God used natural means to produce living things.   But notice, He doesn't say whether they popped out of the ground individually, or they evolved in a process of common descent.    So scripture offers no guidance on that point.

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Still does not explain when human spirit came into human beings.

You're right.   God says we came from the earth like other animals.   But then, He gives each of us our souls directly, making us different from all the others.

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Could that in fact be what happened when in Genesis 2 : 7And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. ?

Yep.   Our bodies show their evolution from other living things, but our souls do not.   And that is how we are in the image of God.
 

Offline seekingHiswisdom

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #381 on: Wed Jun 05, 2019 - 12:34:21 »
Barbarian observes:
It merely means they are all descendants of the first tetrapods.   On the other hand, the fact that all have one bone in the lower jaw, and three bones in the middle ear, demonstrates that they all evolved from a common ancestor that was a primitive mammal.



Why?

Couldn't primitive mammal been a prototype for others to follow?

Why would it be necessary, if all wee to eat and hear, for all to be put together differently?

If you take some steel, and rubber, and a tank to hold fuel, and a reservoir for oil you can get anything from a motor car, aeroplane, motorcycle, a farm tractor, train, and even some boats. None of these came from the other yet they all require steel, rubber, a fuel tank, and oil reservoir.~ along with variations in each design. Each came about on its own.

You reply to the human spirit question with

'You're right.   God says we came from the earth like other animals.   But then, He gives each of us our souls directly, making us different from all the others."

Followed by

"Yep.   Our bodies show their evolution from other living things, but our souls do not.   And that is how we are in the image of God."

There does not have to be an evolution in place. We could well have been made, as it was said within the Holy book. For there is no reason for an evolved being to be selected for a human spirit which has an end in eternity different then the original intent of that primitive mammal.




Offline The Barbarian

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #382 on: Wed Jun 05, 2019 - 17:15:10 »
Barbarian observes:
It merely means they are all descendants of the first tetrapods.   On the other hand, the fact that all have one bone in the lower jaw, and three bones in the middle ear, demonstrates that they all evolved from a common ancestor that was a primitive mammal.

Why?

Because it makes no sense for God to build genes for reptile ears and jaws into mammals, and then add some more genes to make them inoperative, if He designed each one from scratch.   On the other hand, it makes all sorts of sense if He used nature to evolve new species from old.   

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Couldn't primitive mammal been a prototype for others to follow?

If God wasn't omnipotent, that might make some sense.   The "space alien designer" of the IDers, for example, might do that.   The omnipotent and omniscient God of the Bible would have no use for prototypes.

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Why would it be necessary, if all wee to eat and hear, for all to be put together differently?

Because it works differently for mammals and reptiles.   They don't hear so well, and much of what they hear is low frequency sound that is transmitted though the ground to their lower jaws and then to the middle ear.    Mammals have much sharper hearing and can pick up higher frequencies, because the three-lever system in the middle ear of mammals is much more sensitive and efficient.

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If you take some steel, and rubber, and a tank to hold fuel, and a reservoir for oil you can get anything from a motor car, aeroplane, motorcycle, a farm tractor, train, and even some boats. None of these came from the other yet they all require steel, rubber, a fuel tank, and oil reservoir.~ along with variations in each design. Each came about on its own.

The materials are not the genes.    And what we see in biology is quite different.   If it worked the same in engineering as in biology, you'd see rudimentary propellers on jet planes,  horse harnesses on automobiles, and useless hand cranks on electric drills, perhaps modified to become hanging hooks.

You reply to the human spirit question with

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'You're right.   God says we came from the earth like other animals.   But then, He gives each of us our souls directly, making us different from all the others."

Followed by

"Yep.   Our bodies show their evolution from other living things, but our souls do not.   And that is how we are in the image of God."

There does not have to be an evolution in place. We could well have been made, as it was said within the Holy book.

Of course we were made.  It's just that scripture doesn't say how.  The evidence shows that we evolved from other animals.

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For there is no reason for an evolved being to be selected for a human spirit which has an end in eternity different then the original intent of that primitive mammal.

All we know is that it happened, and continues to happen.   And it's impossible to know what God's purposes may be in doing it as He did.   I can only be confident that it was the best way, since it was pleasing to Him.

[/quote]

Offline 4WD

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #383 on: Wed Jun 05, 2019 - 18:22:01 »
The bible says nothing other then God creted animals on day 6 
The Bible does not say God created the animals on day 6.  It says,


Gen 1:24  And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds--livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so.
Gen 1:25  And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.


Neither the word nor the concept nor the implication for God creating animals appears in that statement.  Any such thing is purely in your own mind.

Offline The Barbarian

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Re: Can a Christian support evolution?
« Reply #384 on: Sun Jun 09, 2019 - 10:40:16 »
Barbarian observes:
There were people who said the same about Obama.   And they were just as misguided as you are.    We don't owe loyalty to a man; Americans only owe loyalty to the Constitution.   And those who would overturn it, are the enemies of America.

That, if you have been paying any attention at all to what has been going on, is precisely what the Left is all about.  That has been going on since the very beginning.

I don't see much of that.   At present, the calls for restricting the Bill of rights is coming from the right.   Trump's argument that we shouldn't allow journalists to write unflattering things about public figures, his call to confiscate weapons first and worry about the 2nd Amendment later, and his claim that he can change the Constitution's guarantee of birthright citizenship by fiat, are all attacks on the Constitution.

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The constitution is under open and direct attack by the Democrats, whether it is the first amendment, the second amendment, the electoral college,

The only time I've seen leftists do that is on the 2nd Amendment.   And those that do are dead wrong.  But Obama did not make that argument.

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the foundational element of "innocent until proven guilty" of constitutional law,

Trump says take guns first and worry about 'due process second' in White House gun meeting
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/02/28/trump-says-take-guns-first-and-worry-due-process-second-white-house-gun-meeting/381145002/

When did Obama advocate suspending the Constitution like that?

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the open borders, sanctuary cities,

Those are not unconstitutional.    Indeed, until the late 1800s, we had open borders.

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The removal of all references to God from official words and deeds, on and on and on.

I don't remember Obama advocating that.   You have a source?

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The Left and hence the Democrats, who have taken up the Left's agenda, are indeed working very hard to overturn the Constitution.

As I said, I only see some radical leftists advocating a violation of the 2nd  Amendment.   A few Marxists advocate limiting speech, as Trump does.   Trump is on record as favoring violation of free speech, due process, and birthright citizenship.


 

     
anything