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Author Topic: Can God logically destroy good?  (Read 2110 times)
B-man
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« on: June 19, 2009, 04:14:07 PM »
Seems to me that because from God only goods proceed that it would be wholly against God's nature to destroy any type of good.  Am interested in hearing opinions.
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Tantor
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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2009, 04:15:40 PM »
Good according to who's standard.. God's or Man's ?
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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2009, 04:15:40 PM »
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B-man
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« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2009, 08:01:26 PM »
Quote from: Tantor on June 19, 2009, 04:15:40 PM
Good according to who's standard.. God's or Man's ?


Good per se; in and of itself, e.g., God's standard.  True, not merely perceived, good.
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larry2
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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2009, 10:18:19 PM »

I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to, but the following verses show God's righteous judgment. You have asked something similar to what Abraham asked God in Genesis 18:25 when God was going to destroy Sodom. "That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
 
That which God created was good. Genesis 1:31  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.   

Romans 3:10   There is none righteous, no, not one: Just because God's creation was good, it didn't remain that way.
 
1 Corinthians 3:17  If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy. The man first created good can now be destroyed. The earth came under a curse in Genesis 5:29.

In Matthew 13:29-30 God allows the wheat and chaff representative of people to dwell together until the harvest so as to not harm the wheat. God always does that which is right.

In Jesus' name - larry2
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B-man
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2009, 11:18:16 PM »
Quote from: larry2 on June 19, 2009, 10:18:19 PM

I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to, but the following verses show God's righteous judgment. You have asked something similar to what Abraham asked God in Genesis 18:25 when God was going to destroy Sodom. "That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
 
That which God created was good. Genesis 1:31  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.   

Romans 3:10   There is none righteous, no, not one: Just because God's creation was good, it didn't remain that way.
 
1 Corinthians 3:17  If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy. The man first created good can now be destroyed. The earth came under a curse in Genesis 5:29.

In Matthew 13:29-30 God allows the wheat and chaff representative of people to dwell together until the harvest so as to not harm the wheat. God always does that which is right.

In Jesus' name - larry2


What I'm asking is deeper than what Abraham sought from God, though this conversation could be seen as related to the question, yes.

For instance, once born of "imperishable seed", one is said to possess the good of spiritual life.  Would God transgress His own character to remove the good of spiritual life, once given, from an individual?  I'm not talking about someone losing their own spiritual life by sinning...I believe a human can by wrong choice, commit spiritual suicide.  I think this is what Adam did, and his mistake is a type of the same manner every human can cause their own spiritual death.  So you see, I'm in agreement with your assessment that humanity is fallen.  No problem there.

The problem is metaethical.  There are any number of goods...love, health, life, compassion, justice, mercy, etc.  Simply, the question I'm asking is, would God profane or violate His perfection to destroy these or any other good?
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larry2
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2009, 12:03:08 AM »

B-Man - The problem is metaethical.  There are any number of goods...love, health, life, compassion, justice, mercy, etc.  Simply, the question I'm asking is, would God profane or violate His perfection to destroy these or any other good?

larry2 - Those that are the righteous are the ones that have believed on Him as Abraham did, and it is imputed unto them for righteousness. Then those that come to Him He will in no wise cast out (John 6:37); we now have eternal life (1 John 5:13); God keeps us and will never let us go from His hand (John 10:28-29). It doesn't appear He is going to destroy us.  Smile

In Jesus' name - larry2
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2009, 12:03:08 AM »
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HRoberson
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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2009, 12:09:20 AM »
the question seems to be nonsensical.

God is good.

What part of Himself shall He destroy?
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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2009, 09:20:58 AM »
Quote from: HRoberson on June 20, 2009, 12:09:20 AM
the question seems to be nonsensical.

God is good.

What part of Himself shall He destroy?
Hi HRoberson,

Thanks for responding.  I agree with your assessment.  Am trying to find valid arguments against the idea of God being unable to destroy good.  I'm curious to see what sorts of arguments would be mounted.  Btw, I don't see why the question seems to you to be nonsensical.  Seems to me all questions we might have in a search for the truth of God's character are reasonable and of benefit to ask and try to answer.
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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2009, 09:25:56 AM »
Quote from: larry2 on June 20, 2009, 12:03:08 AM

B-Man - The problem is metaethical.  There are any number of goods...love, health, life, compassion, justice, mercy, etc.  Simply, the question I'm asking is, would God profane or violate His perfection to destroy these or any other good?

larry2 - Those that are the righteous are the ones that have believed on Him as Abraham did, and it is imputed unto them for righteousness. Then those that come to Him He will in no wise cast out (John 6:37); we now have eternal life (1 John 5:13); God keeps us and will never let us go from His hand (John 10:28-29). It doesn't appear He is going to destroy us.  Smile

In Jesus' name - larry2


Larry2, you agree that the question is metaethical, yet you use God's dealing with human beings in each answer, which removes the question from the realm of metaethics and places it in theology.  I'm not asking a theological question.  God's dealing with individual humans is not in view here.  We have to look past God's dealing with humans and use a 'metaphysical microscope' so to speak, to see the question at hand.  The subject isn't people, it's good per se.  Good as the thing in itself.
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HRoberson
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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2009, 11:20:53 AM »
Quote from: B-man on June 20, 2009, 09:20:58 AM
Quote from: HRoberson on June 20, 2009, 12:09:20 AM
the question seems to be nonsensical.

God is good.

What part of Himself shall He destroy?
Hi HRoberson,

Thanks for responding.  I agree with your assessment.  Am trying to find valid arguments against the idea of God being unable to destroy good.  I'm curious to see what sorts of arguments would be mounted.  Btw, I don't see why the question seems to you to be nonsensical.  Seems to me all questions we might have in a search for the truth of God's character are reasonable and of benefit to ask and try to answer.
It is of the same caliber as "if God is all powerful, can he make a rock too heavy that He can't pick it up?"
If God is good (goodness itself), and if the characteristics you listed all come under that goodness, then it is self-evident that God cannot destroy a part of Himself (because He is posited as eternal and simple).
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HRoberson, MC, MS, LMFT
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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2009, 11:20:53 AM »
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larry2
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« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2009, 01:40:29 PM »

Are you misspelling the word "met ethical"; to mean be morally correct? And I would say according to philosophical thinking, making wise choices in the study of anything would acceptable. The problem I find in that, if I understand you correctly now is that if that wisdom was correct morally, there would be no need of further revision.

Now we must come to the difference in religious philosophers and natural philosophy. We might take the difference in the thinking of Columbus and his contemporaries, or Darwin and the Church. The problem or conflicting problems between science and true wisdom is the ever changing view of anything science produces; how then can it be moral to begin with? Has anyone come close to establishing a real case to doubt creation in favor of evolution? No, thus it becomes immoral or foolish; an intelligent person such as Darwin became foolish or immoral in their theories when attempting to prove something to discredit God.

You might provide an exact example of modern philosophy you believe to fit the mold you're defending. What good do you think God has destroyed if any?

In Jesus' name - larry2
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B-man
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« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2009, 02:19:32 PM »
Quote from: HRoberson on June 20, 2009, 11:20:53 AM
Quote from: B-man on June 20, 2009, 09:20:58 AM
Quote from: HRoberson on June 20, 2009, 12:09:20 AM
the question seems to be nonsensical.

God is good.

What part of Himself shall He destroy?
Hi HRoberson,

Thanks for responding.  I agree with your assessment.  Am trying to find valid arguments against the idea of God being unable to destroy good.  I'm curious to see what sorts of arguments would be mounted.  Btw, I don't see why the question seems to you to be nonsensical.  Seems to me all questions we might have in a search for the truth of God's character are reasonable and of benefit to ask and try to answer.
It is of the same caliber as "if God is all powerful, can he make a rock too heavy that He can't pick it up?"
If God is good (goodness itself), and if the characteristics you listed all come under that goodness, then it is self-evident that God cannot destroy a part of Himself (because He is posited as eternal and simple).
I wasn't intending that we consider God destroying "Himself", but this introduces an interesting new wrinkle.  Would the universal good found in humans, as Larry2 suggested, be "of God"?  I would think our good is from God.  Is there a difference in goods possessed by God from that possessed by others?  Would God be destroying Himself if He eradicated good in a human?  This sounds pantheistic on the surface, but makes interesting food for thought.
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B-man
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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2009, 02:29:00 PM »
Quote
Are you misspelling the word "met ethical"; to mean be morally correct?

Don't think so.  Metaethics: The study of the meaning and nature of ethical terms, judgments, and arguments.

Quote
The problem I find in that, if I understand you correctly now is that if that wisdom was correct morally, there would be no need of further revision.
I'd agree with this.

Quote
Now we must come to the difference in religious philosophers and natural philosophy. We might take the difference in the thinking of Columbus and his contemporaries, or Darwin and the Church.
I agree.  Aristotle taught that there are two kinds of truth, truth about the material world and truth concerning spiritual things.  The two tend to overlap because living beings cause events in time and space.  Thus we say it's morally wrong to rob a bank while looking at a certain set of events, when evil doesn't attach to the motion of atoms and molecules...it takes place in the realm of spirit, as Jesus said, in the "heart".

Quote
You might provide an exact example of modern philosophy you believe to fit the mold you're defending. What good do you think God has destroyed if any
I'm not defending a philosophical "mold".  I stated in an earlier post that I don't think God can logically destroy good of any sort.  Just trying to probe the fertile minds of others who care to contribute to the conversation, Larry2.
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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2009, 02:29:00 PM »
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larry2
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« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2009, 04:40:59 PM »

B-Man - I'm not defending a philosophical "mold". I stated in an earlier post that I don't think God can logically destroy good of any sort. Just trying to probe the fertile minds of others who care to contribute to the conversation, Larry2.

larry2 - How about probing the mind of an infertile mind that has grown old with unproven concepts, unprofitable thought, and unrealized goals? Being purpose driven, there is driven thinking, positive thinking, and upward thinking; am I mad for thinking this way, for much learning doth make thee mad.

As to being mad, there are mad housewives, mad cows and mad scientists. I reckon plain angry should make its debut somewhere among these.

I have enjoyed trading thoughts with you.

In Jesus' name - larry2
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« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2009, 12:29:56 PM »


       GOD sent the flood it did a lot of desroying,  Just ask Noah,  The question as I understood it was can GOD destroy anything good.  GODcando anything HE wants to do But,would HE?  And of course HE wouldn't.  GOD loves good things.
                                                                                         
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