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Bacchus
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« on: December 16, 2008, 02:18:01 AM »

This is a series of linked questions that I've been pondering for quite some time, and I hope that the enlightened and knowledgable people here will share their thoughts with me.

1. Is it wrong or sinful to be selfish? Why or why not?

2. Would fierce competition be considered selfish, since we're in it to win for ourselves?

3. If we love our neighbors as ourselves, then how could Christians compete in business endeavors within a free market society that involves competitions that can often lead to the bankruptcy of competing companies? In other words, how can we say we love our neighbors as ourselves when we are trying our best to out-compete them for the purpose of self-preservation and personal gains?

I know each question is leading to the next and are related to one another, but please answer them individually as if they're presented by themself. The reason for this is I'm trying to see the flow of logic in this. Thanks!
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Mere Nick
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« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2008, 12:01:37 PM »

1. Is it wrong or sinful to be selfish? Why or why not?

Is it wrong or sinful to accuse others of selfishness when they are a competitor?

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2. Would fierce competition be considered selfish, since we're in it to win for ourselves?

In sports, you owe it to your competition to give it all you have.  If not, you diminish the thrill of victory.  In business, you only win for yourself when, in the eyes of the buyer, you are wanting to serve him better than your competitors are.

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3. If we love our neighbors as ourselves, then how could Christians compete in business endeavors within a free market society that involves competitions that can often lead to the bankruptcy of competing companies? In other words, how can we say we love our neighbors as ourselves when we are trying our best to out-compete them for the purpose of self-preservation and personal gains?

In a free market economy it is those who serve their fellow man best that succeed.  In short, if Christians believe we should do unto others as we would have done to us, in truly serving our fellow man, then Christians realize that the ONLY moral economic system is the free market.
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taller, better looking and smarter . . .

They turned me loose from the nervous hospital.  Said I was well.  Mmm hmm.

Suffering for your beliefs is called faithfulness, making others suffer for your beliefs is called being a jerk.

His cross, like the ark in the wilderness, is the center around which his people are to encamp; so that they cannot separate into factions, or withdraw from each other, without retiring at the same time from the presence of the cross.
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« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2008, 12:01:37 PM »

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Bacchus
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« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2008, 02:54:47 PM »

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Is it wrong or sinful to accuse others of selfishness when they are a competitor?

No, but that doesn't justify that being selfish is right either.

Quote
In sports, you owe it to your competition to give it all you have.  If not, you diminish the thrill of victory.  In business, you only win for yourself when, in the eyes of the buyer, you are wanting to serve him better than your competitors are.

Sports is for fun, and the purpose for that competition is fun. In the free market, a company strives to be the best, and if possible, eliminate any competition by out-competing their competitors. Furthermore, the prevailing companies may not always be the most beneficial to their consumers. Some companies have larger budgets and can advertise equal or slightly inferior products to the mass market. As a result, they out-compete other companies that may have slightly more beneficial products for the consumers.

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In a free market economy it is those who serve their fellow man best that succeed.  In short, if Christians believe we should do unto others as we would have done to us, in truly serving our fellow man, then Christians realize that the ONLY moral economic system is the free market.

Following from my previous statement, it's not always those who serve their fellow man best that succeed in the free market. Therefore, can Christians really compete to the best of their ability in the free market for the betterment of their companies without putting their moral values and faith on the line?

I believe in the free market system, however, I wish to justify how it doesn't violate the laws of God. That's why I posted it here under "philosophy" - for philosophical purposes.
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Mere Nick
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« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2008, 06:30:40 PM »

Quote
Is it wrong or sinful to accuse others of selfishness when they are a competitor?

No, but that doesn't justify that being selfish is right either.

No, but if you tell me so-and-so is selfish, all you have done is told me your opinion.  The only thing I would be wondering about is why it is, exactly, you are jealous?

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In sports, you owe it to your competition to give it all you have.  If not, you diminish the thrill of victory.  In business, you only win for yourself when, in the eyes of the buyer, you are wanting to serve him better than your competitors are.

Sports is for fun, and the purpose for that competition is fun. In the free market, a company strives to be the best, and if possible, eliminate any competition by out-competing their competitors. Furthermore, the prevailing companies may not always be the most beneficial to their consumers. Some companies have larger budgets and can advertise equal or slightly inferior products to the mass market. As a result, they out-compete other companies that may have slightly more beneficial products for the consumers.

If their competition can't compete, then, yes, they deserve to go out of business since the market has determined their good or service is inferior. 

Quote
Quote
In a free market economy it is those who serve their fellow man best that succeed.  In short, if Christians believe we should do unto others as we would have done to us, in truly serving our fellow man, then Christians realize that the ONLY moral economic system is the free market.

Following from my previous statement, it's not always those who serve their fellow man best that succeed in the free market. Therefore, can Christians really compete to the best of their ability in the free market for the betterment of their companies without putting their moral values and faith on the line?

I believe in the free market system, however, I wish to justify how it doesn't violate the laws of God. That's why I posted it here under "philosophy" - for philosophical purposes.
[/quote]

In the eyes of the only people with an opinion that matters, those of the customer, they DO serve best.  The free market system is the ONLY economic system that is not a gross violation of the laws of God, imo, because all others are based upon, to some measure, the initiation or threat of force or fraud.

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taller, better looking and smarter . . .

They turned me loose from the nervous hospital.  Said I was well.  Mmm hmm.

Suffering for your beliefs is called faithfulness, making others suffer for your beliefs is called being a jerk.

His cross, like the ark in the wilderness, is the center around which his people are to encamp; so that they cannot separate into factions, or withdraw from each other, without retiring at the same time from the presence of the cross.
Bacchus
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« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2008, 07:53:56 PM »

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No, but if you tell me so-and-so is selfish, all you have done is told me your opinion.  The only thing I would be wondering about is why it is, exactly, you are jealous?

You don't have to be jealous to point out that someone else is selfish. For example, if I see a person willingly ignore another person who is in dire need, I can say that he's selfish without feeling jealous. The point I'm trying to get to is, what does God say about selfishness?

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If their competition can't compete, then, yes, they deserve to go out of business since the market has determined their good or service is inferior.

But as Christians, is it logical and God-like to use the market as an excuse to let someone else's business fail? If so, isn't that not loving your neighbor as yourself? If you truly love your neighbor as yourself, wouldn't it be in your interest to keep your competitor in business as well?

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In the eyes of the only people with an opinion that matters, those of the customer, they DO serve best.  The free market system is the ONLY economic system that is not a gross violation of the laws of God, imo, because all others are based upon, to some measure, the initiation or threat of force or fraud.

I see your point. However, when you said that it's "the ONLY economic system that is not a gross violation of the laws of God," are you then assuming that it is still a violation, but only to a lesser extent?
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Mere Nick
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« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2008, 08:23:36 PM »

Quote
No, but if you tell me so-and-so is selfish, all you have done is told me your opinion.  The only thing I would be wondering about is why it is, exactly, you are jealous?

You don't have to be jealous to point out that someone else is selfish. For example, if I see a person willingly ignore another person who is in dire need, I can say that he's selfish without feeling jealous. The point I'm trying to get to is, what does God say about selfishness?

If you were so worked up about it you would do something about it yourself and possibly remember to not be a gossip.

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If their competition can't compete, then, yes, they deserve to go out of business since the market has determined their good or service is inferior.

But as Christians, is it logical and God-like to use the market as an excuse to let someone else's business fail? If so, isn't that not loving your neighbor as yourself? If you truly love your neighbor as yourself, wouldn't it be in your interest to keep your competitor in business as well?

If I truly loved my neighbor as myself and I saw his business was not competitive, then I wouldn't do anything to stand in the way of his finding an endeavor in which he can compete.

Quote
Quote
In the eyes of the only people with an opinion that matters, those of the customer, they DO serve best.  The free market system is the ONLY economic system that is not a gross violation of the laws of God, imo, because all others are based upon, to some measure, the initiation or threat of force or fraud.

I see your point. However, when you said that it's "the ONLY economic system that is not a gross violation of the laws of God," are you then assuming that it is still a violation, but only to a lesser extent?
[/quote]

I'm assuming it is the best because it is based upon transactions occurring only after both sides of the transaction consider it in their own best interests.  All other systems are based upon force and fraud.  If you and someone else want to do a deal, that's your business.  It would be a violation of God's law if I stuck an unwelcome nose in it.
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taller, better looking and smarter . . .

They turned me loose from the nervous hospital.  Said I was well.  Mmm hmm.

Suffering for your beliefs is called faithfulness, making others suffer for your beliefs is called being a jerk.

His cross, like the ark in the wilderness, is the center around which his people are to encamp; so that they cannot separate into factions, or withdraw from each other, without retiring at the same time from the presence of the cross.
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« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2008, 08:23:36 PM »

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DMann
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« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2009, 10:57:14 AM »

Well all I got to say is were human and god knows that.  It is why we ask for forgiveness.  When we do and are forgiven then our sins are no more.  So we are even forgiven for fierce competition.
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HRoberson
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« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2009, 02:33:07 PM »

This is a series of linked questions that I've been pondering for quite some time, and I hope that the enlightened and knowledgable people here will share their thoughts with me.

1. Is it wrong or sinful to be selfish? Why or why not?

Depends on what you include in selfish. In an extreme view, yes, being selfish is sinful. In a more moderate view, caring for oneself isn't sin.

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2. Would fierce competition be considered selfish, since we're in it to win for ourselves?

If you are out to destroy someone else, yes. If you simply make the best product and ship it around the world, no.
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3. If we love our neighbors as ourselves, then how could Christians compete in business endeavors within a free market society that involves competitions that can often lead to the bankruptcy of competing companies? In other words, how can we say we love our neighbors as ourselves when we are trying our best to out-compete them for the purpose of self-preservation and personal gains?

If my intent is to give you the best quality at the lowest price, and you buy it rather than someone else's, it's a matter of the market.

The question is not whether some businesses succeed and others don't. It has much more to do with who you are.
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« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2009, 03:36:31 PM »

It all kind of depends on what your motives are.
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yesult
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« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2009, 07:27:15 AM »


3. If we love our neighbors as ourselves, then how could Christians compete in business endeavors within a free market society that involves competitions that can often lead to the bankruptcy of competing companies? In other words, how can we say we love our neighbors as ourselves when we are trying our best to out-compete them for the purpose of self-preservation and personal gains?

Jesus was a carpenter. Should he have not been a carpenter because there were other carpenters in the vicinity? What if new ones started up and began depleting his customer supply? They all had to eat. What if he did better work? Should he not be allowed the reward of more customers and higher pay for that better work?

I think his whole philosphy would be do the best you can at your job and find your niche. If there were a number of carpenters in his home town, and he didn't have the natural skill to provided a niche for himself in the market above the other carpenters, and all the work was taken. He'd be silly to try to be a carpenter in that place. However if he could find a niche by doing something different or better, then his customers would benefit as well as him.

I think the basic principle is pretty simple. The bible says in proverbs that if a man won't work, then he shouldn't eat. It also has a lot to say on paying your workers fairly and promptly.

Everyone needs to work. And everyone needs to eat. It's just finding a system where opportunities are open for everyone. Cutting someone elses throat in business is of course unethical and unchristian. But an open market gives a place for everybody to find a niche for themselves. And competition keeps that market operating at a certain standard. Take it away and people lose incentive and can start being parasites on other peoples hard work, or just give out shoddy products because they can get away with it.

In the west in the past, trade operated under guilds with strict rules and leadership. It was actually an excellent system because it keep the market in a particular field from being oversaturated and was able to police its quality and the work ethics of the guild members. Have a member producing shabby products and it reflected on the whole guild, and ultimatly its leaders. The encouraged everyone to work hard and gave a collective pool for skills to be increased and shared.

Life in the global market is a little more complicated now though.  However people deserve financial reward if they work hard or do a good job. To take away that right is to strike at the very heart of a nations economy, because you're basically preventing people from being fairly paid for fair labour.


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« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2009, 07:27:15 AM »

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JamesTheLeast
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« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2009, 12:56:05 AM »

This is a series of linked questions that I've been pondering for quite some time, and I hope that the enlightened and knowledgable people here will share their thoughts with me.

1. Is it wrong or sinful to be selfish? Why or why not?

Short Answer: Yes.  Longer Answer: Because I can read.  Pick one of the deadly sins that is not selfish.  Conversley, give an example of a selfish act that is not covered by one of the seven deadly sins.

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2. Would fierce competition be considered selfish, since we're in it to win for ourselves?

Short Answer:  Don't be shy, you just want it to be OK to be selfish.  Longer Answer.  Perhaps you don't know what competition is.  IIf you do it for yourself you are doomed.  But many things are fiercly competitive that are not evil.  Take team sports.  Rival teams that are fiercly competitive abound.  And yet teams aspire to play by the rules and winning or losing is not  "at all costs" but within the rules.  This is  aloophole in your statement you need to clarify or close.

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3. If we love our neighbors as ourselves, then how could Christians compete in business endeavors within a free market society that involves competitions that can often lead to the bankruptcy of competing companies? In other words, how can we say we love our neighbors as ourselves when we are trying our best to out-compete them for the purpose of self-preservation and personal gains?

I know each question is leading to the next and are related to one another, but please answer them individually as if they're presented by themself. The reason for this is I'm trying to see the flow of logic in this. Thanks!

1 you assume your nieghbours are Chrisaian.
2 In business a person supplies what another has not.  I fail to see how if I supply you with a cart to take your goods to market  so they are fresh today and you make more money instead of a day old tommorow and the cart is well made and will last you years that and /or you are useless with tools and could never make one, or have not the time t or energy to do so that I cannot find a way to make you ne where  it costs you less to have me make it than you and I do so in less effort that it would take me to make the same money farming or doing your job.  Your question implies that you want to rip your business client off.  That would be bad.  A fair and profitable arrangement for all around however is most Christian.
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