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Author Topic: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............  (Read 7417 times)

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Offline Jaime

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Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« on: Wed Jan 14, 2009 - 21:18:56 »
 "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it does it make a sound?"

Married couples corollary:
 "If a man says something and his wife is not there to hear him, is he still wrong?"


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Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« on: Wed Jan 14, 2009 - 21:18:56 »

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #1 on: Wed Jan 14, 2009 - 21:29:09 »
I'm not touching that one.  But, the whole "if a tree falls" thing has a very inherent flaw from the get go.  It seems to based on the assumption that man is (or at least may be) at the center of all that does or does not happen, and encourages us to be arrogant enough to consider the possibility that if we aren't there, it doesn't happen.

Too, if you believe the Scriptures that God is omnipresent and omniscient, how would a tree fall without anyone there to here it? Where is there a "there" that God is not there to hear?

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #1 on: Wed Jan 14, 2009 - 21:29:09 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #2 on: Thu Jan 15, 2009 - 07:13:08 »
We discussed this in a physics class one time at college many years ago. The professor was arguing that if a receptor of the sound waves was not there, be it an electronic device, or a human or non-human ear, is a sound wave generated. Of course we never got to the bottom of it.

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jan 15, 2009 - 07:29:43 »
The stench in the men's room is still there whether you're there to smell it or not.  In fact, it's growing.  Same principle.

(On another note, I never was much help with the "one hand clapping" question, either.  I can make the clapping sound with one hand.  No meditation in Tibet required.)

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jan 15, 2009 - 07:29:43 »

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #4 on: Sun Jan 18, 2009 - 19:28:11 »
"If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it does it make a sound?"

Married couples corollary:
 "If a man says something and his wife is not there to hear him, is he still wrong?"



My wife's husband is never wrong.

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #4 on: Sun Jan 18, 2009 - 19:28:11 »



Offline Jimbob

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #5 on: Thu Jan 22, 2009 - 10:07:51 »
If a man's wife walks into the room while he's speaking, is he still right?

Offline faolanblood

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #6 on: Thu Feb 05, 2009 - 17:44:37 »
Heb 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

You could go off of simple faith that when a tree falls and some one is near by you will hear it an so why would it be different if you are not there

HRoberson

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #7 on: Sun Feb 08, 2009 - 20:36:36 »
We discussed this in a physics class one time at college many years ago. The professor was arguing that if a receptor of the sound waves was not there, be it an electronic device, or a human or non-human ear, is a sound wave generated. Of course we never got to the bottom of it.

The answer is quite simple.

A sound wave is generated, if by "sound wave" you mean a wave of air emanating because of the falling tree.

However, a sound is only a sound if there is some receptor there to translate the air wave into sound.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #8 on: Sun Feb 08, 2009 - 20:42:33 »
We discussed this in a physics class one time at college many years ago. The professor was arguing that if a receptor of the sound waves was not there, be it an electronic device, or a human or non-human ear, is a sound wave generated. Of course we never got to the bottom of it.

The answer is quite simple.

A sound wave is generated, if by "sound wave" you mean a wave of air emanating because of the falling tree.

However, a sound is only a sound if there is some receptor there to translate the air wave into sound.

But are you still wrong if your wife doesn't hear you?

HRoberson

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #9 on: Sun Feb 08, 2009 - 22:21:32 »
We discussed this in a physics class one time at college many years ago. The professor was arguing that if a receptor of the sound waves was not there, be it an electronic device, or a human or non-human ear, is a sound wave generated. Of course we never got to the bottom of it.

The answer is quite simple.

A sound wave is generated, if by "sound wave" you mean a wave of air emanating because of the falling tree.

However, a sound is only a sound if there is some receptor there to translate the air wave into sound.

But are you still wrong if your wife doesn't hear you?

No, but you are still guilty of ignoring her.


"My wife says I don't listen to her."

"Well, I think that's what she says."

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #10 on: Mon Feb 09, 2009 - 08:11:44 »
No tip from the wife, then.

HRoberson

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #11 on: Sat Feb 14, 2009 - 23:04:53 »
Silly boy!

I'm not the one that has to keep the iced tea glass filled.

Offline DCR

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #12 on: Mon Feb 16, 2009 - 14:58:45 »
The answer is quite simple.

A sound wave is generated, if by "sound wave" you mean a wave of air emanating because of the falling tree.

However, a sound is only a sound if there is some receptor there to translate the air wave into sound.

I'm not sure I buy the distinction made between a "sound" and a "sound wave." 

The sound is the sound wave.  Otherwise, it's like saying that a beam of light isn't really light until an eye (or other receptor) sees it.  The receptor has no cause in the thing that causes the sound or the light.  The receptor's detection of the sound or the light doesn't somehow change the nature of the sound in terms of what it is.  It only observes it.

If something exists, it doesn't exist only because an observer observed it.  It exists regardless of whether anything or anyone observed it.

HRoberson

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #13 on: Mon Feb 16, 2009 - 16:02:59 »
The answer is quite simple.

A sound wave is generated, if by "sound wave" you mean a wave of air emanating because of the falling tree.

However, a sound is only a sound if there is some receptor there to translate the air wave into sound.

I'm not sure I buy the distinction made between a "sound" and a "sound wave." 

The sound is the sound wave.  Otherwise, it's like saying that a beam of light isn't really light until an eye (or other receptor) sees it.  The receptor has no cause in the thing that causes the sound or the light.  The receptor's detection of the sound or the light doesn't somehow change the nature of the sound in terms of what it is.  It only observes it.

If something exists, it doesn't exist only because an observer observed it.  It exists regardless of whether anything or anyone observed it.

A "sound wave" is a misnomer actually. It is really only an air wave.

An air wave needs a receptor that can translate the change in pressure on the receptor into a phenomena we interpret as sound.

In space, despite almost universal depictions to the contrary, if something blows up, you won't hear it unless there is some substance that results in changed pressure on your ear drum.

Or, a deaf person doesn't hear your voice, even though your vocal cords vibrate the air around them. Why not? Because the deaf person's receptors are broken.

Ergo, air movement, but no sound.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #14 on: Mon Feb 16, 2009 - 16:26:20 »
Ergo, air movement, but no sound.

Is Ergo DCR's real name???

HRoberson

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #15 on: Mon Feb 16, 2009 - 16:54:32 »
Ergo, air movement, but no sound.

Is Ergo DCR's real name???

Yes.

He also starred in a Shakespeare play using the name Iago.

Offline gretle56

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #16 on: Sat Feb 28, 2009 - 20:51:05 »
Then a better question would be:
If a tree falls in the forest and know one is there to hear it does it make an air wave?

Offline OneLung

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #17 on: Sun Mar 01, 2009 - 05:54:50 »
We discussed this in a physics class one time at college many years ago. The professor was arguing that if a receptor of the sound waves was not there, be it an electronic device, or a human or non-human ear, is a sound wave generated. Of course we never got to the bottom of it.

Many phisics professors would have had you banned from the science department for even asking that question.   rofl

HRoberson

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #18 on: Sun Mar 01, 2009 - 15:30:15 »
Then a better question would be:
If a tree falls in the forest and know one is there to hear it does it make an air wave?

The answer to that question would be "yes."

Offline Jaime

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #19 on: Sun Mar 01, 2009 - 16:42:15 »
We discussed this in a physics class one time at college many years ago. The professor was arguing that if a receptor of the sound waves was not there, be it an electronic device, or a human or non-human ear, is a sound wave generated. Of course we never got to the bottom of it.

Many phisics professors would have had you banned from the science department for even asking that question.   rofl

I didn't ask it, the professor did. I see you had the same spelling teacher I had also! (phisics).

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #20 on: Tue Mar 03, 2009 - 14:28:00 »
If a tree falls in the forest, it's Bush's fault.

Offline bml1st

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #21 on: Mon Mar 23, 2009 - 14:55:57 »
If a tree falls on a mime and no one is around, does he make a sound?

Offline Nevertheless

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #22 on: Sat Mar 28, 2009 - 23:06:18 »
Or, a deaf person doesn't hear your voice, even though your vocal cords vibrate the air around them. Why not? Because the deaf person's receptors are broken.

Ergo, air movement, but no sound.

Not so. The deaf person simply can't hear it. I can hear, and know that my voice made a sound even though the other person didn't hear it.

If I wave my hand at a blind person and no one else is around to see me wave, did I really wave?
::doh::

HRoberson

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #23 on: Tue Mar 31, 2009 - 22:17:20 »
Or, a deaf person doesn't hear your voice, even though your vocal cords vibrate the air around them. Why not? Because the deaf person's receptors are broken.

Ergo, air movement, but no sound.

Not so. The deaf person simply can't hear it. I can hear, and know that my voice made a sound even though the other person didn't hear it.

If I wave my hand at a blind person and no one else is around to see me wave, did I really wave?
::doh::

What you perceive as sound, is the effect of air waves on your receptor, and its interpretation by that receiver as sound. "Sound" per se, doesn't exist.

If you've had your lower arm amputated, and yet your mind tells you that you're waving, you still aren't waving. If no one was around to see your wave, you would still be waving because a wave does not require anyone to see it.

The phenomena of sound however, requires both a receptor and a translator to interpret the movement of air as sound. If you were nerve deaf, rather than drum deaf, your ear drum would vibrate but you would not perceive it as sound.

Offline kensington

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #24 on: Tue Mar 31, 2009 - 23:36:20 »
Wouldn't "ground" be the factor... in that when something hits something else, there sound, be anyone to hear it or not?

When someone claps... it makes a sound, and if only deaf people see it, but do not hear it, it's still a clap... the clapping sound still happens, the deaf just didn't hear it. 

HRoberson

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #25 on: Wed Apr 01, 2009 - 00:16:35 »
Wouldn't "ground" be the factor... in that when something hits something else, there sound, be anyone to hear it or not?

When someone claps... it makes a sound, and if only deaf people see it, but do not hear it, it's still a clap... the clapping sound still happens, the deaf just didn't hear it. 

No. What we perceive as the phenomenon of sound, is the impact of air on our eardrums, the vibration of which is percieved by us as sound.

We must have a functioning receptor in order for there to be sound. Air will move whether we are there or not, and various parts of our bodies might vibrate with a strong enough wave moving around us. But unless that vibration gets translated by a nerve ending as sound, we will not experience sound.

Because there is no sound without a receptor that understands the movement of air against it as sound.

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #26 on: Wed Apr 01, 2009 - 07:04:31 »
I disagree with HRoberson.  It makes a sound even if no one hears it just like poop stinks even if no one catches a whiff.

Offline zoonance

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #27 on: Wed Apr 01, 2009 - 08:05:31 »
Did Helen Keller's poop stink?

HRoberson

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #28 on: Wed Apr 01, 2009 - 11:14:25 »
I disagree with HRoberson.  It makes a sound even if no one hears it just like poop stinks even if no one catches a whiff.
Poop emits particles into the air, that we percieve as an odor.

But "stink" is a value judgment based on what your receptors tell you.

If you can't smell it, it can't "stink," even if it continues to emit odor particles.

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #29 on: Wed Apr 01, 2009 - 11:36:08 »
Ergo, air movement, but no sound.

Is Ergo DCR's real name???

Yes.

He also starred in a Shakespeare play using the name Iago.
I thought that was the parrot in Aladdin.

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #30 on: Wed Apr 01, 2009 - 11:39:08 »
I disagree with HRoberson.  It makes a sound even if no one hears it just like poop stinks even if no one catches a whiff.
Poop emits particles into the air, that we percieve as an odor.

But "stink" is a value judgment based on what your receptors tell you.

If you can't smell it, it can't "stink," even if it continues to emit odor particles.
I love reminding people that all smell is particle, and that if they smell it, it's because part of it is sitting in their nostril.  Goes over very well.

HRoberson

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #31 on: Thu Apr 02, 2009 - 14:03:53 »
I disagree with HRoberson.  It makes a sound even if no one hears it just like poop stinks even if no one catches a whiff.
Poop emits particles into the air, that we percieve as an odor.

But "stink" is a value judgment based on what your receptors tell you.

If you can't smell it, it can't "stink," even if it continues to emit odor particles.
I love reminding people that all smell is particle, and that if they smell it, it's because part of it is sitting in their nostril.  Goes over very well.
Yes....if you can smell the nerve gas, you can expect to start twitching.
« Last Edit: Thu Apr 02, 2009 - 14:20:46 by HRoberson »

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #32 on: Thu Apr 02, 2009 - 14:10:04 »
Poop emits particles into the air . . .

Now that's gross.

Offline Nevertheless

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Re: Corollary to "If a tree falls...............
« Reply #33 on: Sat Apr 25, 2009 - 22:43:18 »
Poop emits particles into the air . . .

Now that's gross.

Gross, but true.

 

     
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