Author Topic: Original Sin  (Read 16881 times)

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Offline 4WD

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #35 on: Sat Feb 14, 2015 - 10:07:12 »
Certainly it is your prerogative to claim that shifting balances in laws of nature are a ridiculous assumption, but without any convincing argumentation why such a thing can not be, your statement is nothing more than you throwing a straw man in a bucket of ice cubes hoping it catches fire.

You are arguing that because Adam sinned that God screwed up His entire creation??  Or perhaps you are arguing that God doesn't really have control of His creation and someone or something else screwed it up??

As you say, AVZ, it is your prerogative to believe that.  I don't.

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #36 on: Sat Feb 14, 2015 - 10:10:16 »
Let me ask this; How different would the world be had Adam not sinned? Would Adam have presented a righteous and Holy life but his offspring still brought sin into the world? Would Adam have faced death?

Why speculate on something that did not happen?  The truth is that God created the world.  It was in fact only after he had completed all his work of creating that Adam sinned.  The only thing that resulted from the fall, outside of the fact that Adam fell, is that Adam and Eve were ejected from the Garden, a place of sanctuary against the outside world. That was the "curse".  On the outside there would be found "thistles and thorns" signifying all the things that would hamper Adam's tilling of the soil to provide for his subsistence. He was now outside the Garden instead of inside.  Nothing beyond that changed. The outside was always the outside.

Again, that is a whole lot of speculation from your side.
The Bible clearly tells us why Adam and Eve had to leave the Garden...because the Tree of Life was there, and God did not want them to eat from it.
As for your assumption that there was an "inside" and and "outside"...how would you know if there were no thorns and thistles in the Garden?
All the Bible says that instead of God providing for Adam and Eve...they now had to work for their daily bread and butter and thorns and thistles would make it a whole lot harder to do.

I find it very hard to see you finger pointing at people insinuation they speculate on things that did not happen, whilst your own argumentation does not pass the point of speculation itself.

AVZ

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #37 on: Sat Feb 14, 2015 - 10:17:24 »
Certainly it is your prerogative to claim that shifting balances in laws of nature are a ridiculous assumption, but without any convincing argumentation why such a thing can not be, your statement is nothing more than you throwing a straw man in a bucket of ice cubes hoping it catches fire.

You are arguing that because Adam sinned that God screwed up His entire creation??  Or perhaps you are arguing that God doesn't really have control of His creation and someone or something else screwed it up??

As you say, AVZ, it is your prerogative to believe that.  I don't.

Whats your point?
Everybody on this board knows and believes that God is in total control, but He sovereignly allowed and allows evil to do its work.
The options you pose both lack theological integrity so I shall make no further attempts to address a position you already know to be without merit.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #38 on: Thu Feb 19, 2015 - 11:03:19 »
I find this debate fruitless.  As one poster said, you have pitted Augustine against Pelagius (or perhaps Calvin against Arminius).  These represent the EXTREMES on either side of the debate.  The truth (as usual) is somewhere in the middle.

Jarrod

Offline angel wings

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #39 on: Thu Feb 19, 2015 - 11:10:16 »
I find this debate fruitless.  As one poster said, you have pitted Augustine against Pelagius (or perhaps Calvin against Arminius).  These represent the EXTREMES on either side of the debate.  The truth (as usual) is somewhere in the middle.

Jarrod

I would think the truth is in the scriptures.

(Genesis 8:21)
 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

 (1 Corinthians 15:21) For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.

(Romans 8:9)
 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #40 on: Thu Feb 19, 2015 - 11:38:39 »
Certainly it is your prerogative to claim that shifting balances in laws of nature are a ridiculous assumption, but without any convincing argumentation why such a thing can not be, your statement is nothing more than you throwing a straw man in a bucket of ice cubes hoping it catches fire.

You are arguing that because Adam sinned that God screwed up His entire creation??  Or perhaps you are arguing that God doesn't really have control of His creation and someone or something else screwed it up??

As you say, AVZ, it is your prerogative to believe that.  I don't.

Whats your point?
Everybody on this board knows and believes that God is in total control, but He sovereignly allowed and allows evil to do its work.
The options you pose both lack theological integrity so I shall make no further attempts to address a position you already know to be without merit.

Good, then you understand that God's creation was not changed in any way when Adam sinned.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #41 on: Fri Feb 20, 2015 - 17:12:43 »
I find this debate fruitless.  As one poster said, you have pitted Augustine against Pelagius (or perhaps Calvin against Arminius).  These represent the EXTREMES on either side of the debate.  The truth (as usual) is somewhere in the middle.

Jarrod

I would think the truth is in the scriptures.

(Genesis 8:21)
 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

 (1 Corinthians 15:21) For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.

(Romans 8:9)
 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
Right.  But we're arguing over the interpretations of the Scriptures.  Not what they actually say.

Jarrod

Offline angel wings

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #42 on: Fri Feb 20, 2015 - 17:17:10 »
         ::noworries::              Good one.


I find this debate fruitless.  As one poster said, you have pitted Augustine against Pelagius (or perhaps Calvin against Arminius).  These represent the EXTREMES on either side of the debate.  The truth (as usual) is somewhere in the middle.

Jarrod

I would think the truth is in the scriptures.

(Genesis 8:21)
 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

 (1 Corinthians 15:21) For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.

(Romans 8:9)
 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
Right.  But we're arguing over the interpretations of the Scriptures.  Not what they actually say.

Jarrod

notreligus

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #43 on: Sat Feb 21, 2015 - 12:27:40 »
::shrug:: And MM you are just as "bad"as all the other Calvinists, nothing new under the sun. Of course we think each other are heretics and in need of the truth and prayers. Next?

You don't like being characterized a certain way because you're Church of Christ, so why do you do the very thing you so disdain about others?   

notreligus

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #44 on: Sat Feb 21, 2015 - 12:33:06 »
I read through the posts and I did not note anyone mentioning a very significant word:   CURSE.   It's there in Genesis.   Look it up.

The physical, earthly things are still subject to the curse;  We humans, Christians included, still get sick, we age, women have pain in childbirth, and we die.   Bullets don't bounce off us.   

Christ removed the spiritual curse which caused us to be separated from God and unreconciled.   We are now reconciled back to God by our faith in Christ and what He has done.   

When we are with Him and have our eternal bodies - the prototype which Christ now has - the physical curse will be removed.  Christ is not going to reign over a physical kingdom with sickness and disease, or the option to serve the devil.   God is Holy, and nothing unholy can be in His presence.   
« Last Edit: Sat Feb 21, 2015 - 12:36:09 by notreligus »

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #45 on: Sat Feb 21, 2015 - 12:51:53 »
Let me ask this; How different would the world be had Adam not sinned? Would Adam have presented a righteous and Holy life but his offspring still brought sin into the world? Would Adam have faced death?

Why speculate on something that did not happen?  The truth is that God created the world.  It was in fact only after he had completed all his work of creating that Adam sinned.  The only thing that resulted from the fall, outside of the fact that Adam fell, is that Adam and Eve were ejected from the Garden, a place of sanctuary against the outside world. That was the "curse".  On the outside there would be found "thistles and thorns" signifying all the things that would hamper Adam's tilling of the soil to provide for his subsistence. He was now outside the Garden instead of inside.  Nothing beyond that changed. The outside was always the outside.

The outside was not always the outside.

Gen. 1:30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

All the animals on earth were vegetarian. They didn't begin to eat each other until after the Fall. During the Millennium animals will return to vegetarians.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #46 on: Sat Feb 21, 2015 - 13:06:27 »
NR, I guess it's the same reason you have disdain for some others.  You have disdain for pretty much all things cofc. You know it, we all know it, we move on.

In my post you quoted, I was responding to MM's statement to me, saying I was bad for ........... My response was not out of thin air. Could I be more reasonable in my response? Sure as we all can be.
« Last Edit: Sat Feb 21, 2015 - 13:15:31 by Jaime »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #47 on: Sat Feb 21, 2015 - 13:07:07 »
Let me ask this; How different would the world be had Adam not sinned? Would Adam have presented a righteous and Holy life but his offspring still brought sin into the world? Would Adam have faced death?

Why speculate on something that did not happen?  The truth is that God created the world.  It was in fact only after he had completed all his work of creating that Adam sinned.  The only thing that resulted from the fall, outside of the fact that Adam fell, is that Adam and Eve were ejected from the Garden, a place of sanctuary against the outside world. That was the "curse".  On the outside there would be found "thistles and thorns" signifying all the things that would hamper Adam's tilling of the soil to provide for his subsistence. He was now outside the Garden instead of inside.  Nothing beyond that changed. The outside was always the outside.

The outside was not always the outside.

Gen. 1:30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

All the animals on earth were vegetarian. They didn't begin to eat each other until after the Fall. During the Millennium animals will return to vegetarians.

Now you see, that is funny.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #48 on: Sat Feb 21, 2015 - 13:09:40 »
Let me ask this; How different would the world be had Adam not sinned? Would Adam have presented a righteous and Holy life but his offspring still brought sin into the world? Would Adam have faced death?

Why speculate on something that did not happen?  The truth is that God created the world.  It was in fact only after he had completed all his work of creating that Adam sinned.  The only thing that resulted from the fall, outside of the fact that Adam fell, is that Adam and Eve were ejected from the Garden, a place of sanctuary against the outside world. That was the "curse".  On the outside there would be found "thistles and thorns" signifying all the things that would hamper Adam's tilling of the soil to provide for his subsistence. He was now outside the Garden instead of inside.  Nothing beyond that changed. The outside was always the outside.

The outside was not always the outside.

Gen. 1:30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

All the animals on earth were vegetarian. They didn't begin to eat each other until after the Fall. During the Millennium animals will return to vegetarians.

Now you see, that is funny.

Yes it is. Your present Millennium is a joke!!!

Offline 4WD

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #49 on: Sat Feb 21, 2015 - 13:23:20 »
Let me ask this; How different would the world be had Adam not sinned? Would Adam have presented a righteous and Holy life but his offspring still brought sin into the world? Would Adam have faced death?

Why speculate on something that did not happen?  The truth is that God created the world.  It was in fact only after he had completed all his work of creating that Adam sinned.  The only thing that resulted from the fall, outside of the fact that Adam fell, is that Adam and Eve were ejected from the Garden, a place of sanctuary against the outside world. That was the "curse".  On the outside there would be found "thistles and thorns" signifying all the things that would hamper Adam's tilling of the soil to provide for his subsistence. He was now outside the Garden instead of inside.  Nothing beyond that changed. The outside was always the outside.

The outside was not always the outside.

Gen. 1:30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

All the animals on earth were vegetarian. They didn't begin to eat each other until after the Fall. During the Millennium animals will return to vegetarians.

Now you see, that is funny.

Yes it is. Your present Millennium is a joke!!!

The snakes and most of the fish will simply die off, not to mention lions, tigers, raptors and all the rest of the carnivores, then when that happens the earth will be overrun with rabbits, mice, and all the prey animals.  Talk about joke.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #50 on: Sat Feb 21, 2015 - 13:31:54 »
Let me ask this; How different would the world be had Adam not sinned? Would Adam have presented a righteous and Holy life but his offspring still brought sin into the world? Would Adam have faced death?

Why speculate on something that did not happen?  The truth is that God created the world.  It was in fact only after he had completed all his work of creating that Adam sinned.  The only thing that resulted from the fall, outside of the fact that Adam fell, is that Adam and Eve were ejected from the Garden, a place of sanctuary against the outside world. That was the "curse".  On the outside there would be found "thistles and thorns" signifying all the things that would hamper Adam's tilling of the soil to provide for his subsistence. He was now outside the Garden instead of inside.  Nothing beyond that changed. The outside was always the outside.

The outside was not always the outside.

Gen. 1:30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

All the animals on earth were vegetarian. They didn't begin to eat each other until after the Fall. During the Millennium animals will return to vegetarians.

Now you see, that is funny.

Yes it is. Your present Millennium is a joke!!!

The snakes and most of the fish will simply die off, not to mention lions, tigers, raptors and all the rest of the carnivores, then when that happens the earth will be overrun with rabbits, mice, and all the prey animals.  Talk about joke.


Hopefully the Pope or someone will take action to preserve the Christians on earth from the future predators who believe the garbage you teach.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #51 on: Sat Feb 21, 2015 - 13:36:44 »
Let me ask this; How different would the world be had Adam not sinned? Would Adam have presented a righteous and Holy life but his offspring still brought sin into the world? Would Adam have faced death?

Why speculate on something that did not happen?  The truth is that God created the world.  It was in fact only after he had completed all his work of creating that Adam sinned.  The only thing that resulted from the fall, outside of the fact that Adam fell, is that Adam and Eve were ejected from the Garden, a place of sanctuary against the outside world. That was the "curse".  On the outside there would be found "thistles and thorns" signifying all the things that would hamper Adam's tilling of the soil to provide for his subsistence. He was now outside the Garden instead of inside.  Nothing beyond that changed. The outside was always the outside.

The outside was not always the outside.

Gen. 1:30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

All the animals on earth were vegetarian. They didn't begin to eat each other until after the Fall. During the Millennium animals will return to vegetarians.

Now you see, that is funny.

Yes it is. Your present Millennium is a joke!!!

The snakes and most of the fish will simply die off, not to mention lions, tigers, raptors and all the rest of the carnivores, then when that happens the earth will be overrun with rabbits, mice, and all the prey animals.  Talk about joke.


Hopefully the Pope or someone will take action to preserve the Christians on earth from the future predators who believe the garbage you teach.

Well if you wish to rely on the Pope, that is up to you.  Personally, I will go with what the Bible says.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #52 on: Mon Feb 23, 2015 - 11:23:52 »
The outside was not always the outside.

Gen. 1:30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

All the animals on earth were vegetarian. They didn't begin to eat each other until after the Fall. During the Millennium animals will return to vegetarians.
I find it silly too.  Aside from the common sense test which was already pointed out, just look at what it actually says.

It says God made green plants and that they were food for the animals.  There's no mention that they were the exclusive food of the animals.  The leading thought here is "God created" and not "vegetarian animals."  That's something foreign to the text.

Jarrod

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #53 on: Mon Feb 23, 2015 - 19:37:06 »
The outside was not always the outside.

Gen. 1:30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

All the animals on earth were vegetarian. They didn't begin to eat each other until after the Fall. During the Millennium animals will return to vegetarians.
I find it silly too.  Aside from the common sense test which was already pointed out, just look at what it actually says.

It says God made green plants and that they were food for the animals.  There's no mention that they were the exclusive food of the animals.  The leading thought here is "God created" and not "vegetarian animals."  That's something foreign to the text.

Jarrod

Opinions are a dime a dozen. Show me some proof it doesn't mean that Jarrod!

Offline 4WD

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #54 on: Tue Feb 24, 2015 - 05:09:17 »
The outside was not always the outside.

Gen. 1:30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

All the animals on earth were vegetarian. They didn't begin to eat each other until after the Fall. During the Millennium animals will return to vegetarians.
I find it silly too.  Aside from the common sense test which was already pointed out, just look at what it actually says.

It says God made green plants and that they were food for the animals.  There's no mention that they were the exclusive food of the animals.  The leading thought here is "God created" and not "vegetarian animals."  That's something foreign to the text.

Jarrod

Opinions are a dime a dozen. Show me some proof it doesn't mean that Jarrod!

Because it doesn't say that!!  It says exactly what Wycliffes_Shillelagh  said it says.  Besides can you imagine the changes that would have to take place in order for an herbivore to turn into  carnivore?  Not only would the teeth have to change, but their entire digestive system would have to change.  And the fish  --  I can just imagine the sharks swimming hither and yon in the ocean looking for some plants to eat and not finding any when all of sudden, unbeknownst to them, Adam sins, saying, "Hey finally, something to eat".

AVZ

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #55 on: Tue Feb 24, 2015 - 06:06:27 »
The outside was not always the outside.

Gen. 1:30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

All the animals on earth were vegetarian. They didn't begin to eat each other until after the Fall. During the Millennium animals will return to vegetarians.
I find it silly too.  Aside from the common sense test which was already pointed out, just look at what it actually says.

It says God made green plants and that they were food for the animals.  There's no mention that they were the exclusive food of the animals.  The leading thought here is "God created" and not "vegetarian animals."  That's something foreign to the text.

Jarrod

Opinions are a dime a dozen. Show me some proof it doesn't mean that Jarrod!

Because it doesn't say that!!  It says exactly what Wycliffes_Shillelagh  said it says.  Besides can you imagine the changes that would have to take place in order for an herbivore to turn into  carnivore?  Not only would the teeth have to change, but their entire digestive system would have to change.  And the fish  --  I can just imagine the sharks swimming hither and yon in the ocean looking for some plants to eat and not finding any when all of sudden, unbeknownst to them, Adam sins, saying, "Hey finally, something to eat".

Yeah imagine that!
Unbelievable...we are talking about a God who just created the whole universe, the earth and all what is in and on it from absolutely nothing.
And we are supposed to trip over the "impossible" event to change a few teeth and digestive systems.

AVZ

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #56 on: Tue Feb 24, 2015 - 06:15:24 »
The outside was not always the outside.

Gen. 1:30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

All the animals on earth were vegetarian. They didn't begin to eat each other until after the Fall. During the Millennium animals will return to vegetarians.
I find it silly too.  Aside from the common sense test which was already pointed out, just look at what it actually says.

It says God made green plants and that they were food for the animals.  There's no mention that they were the exclusive food of the animals.  The leading thought here is "God created" and not "vegetarian animals."  That's something foreign to the text.

Jarrod

I am not sure if I can agree with that.
The text says: "I have given every green herb for meat", which practically implies that instead of meat, the animals were given "green herbs" for food.

If I were to say "I give you soap for toothpaste" then the interpretation would be that you do not have toothpaste and instead I gave you soap to brush your teeth.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #57 on: Tue Feb 24, 2015 - 06:20:05 »
The outside was not always the outside.

Gen. 1:30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

All the animals on earth were vegetarian. They didn't begin to eat each other until after the Fall. During the Millennium animals will return to vegetarians.
I find it silly too.  Aside from the common sense test which was already pointed out, just look at what it actually says.

It says God made green plants and that they were food for the animals.  There's no mention that they were the exclusive food of the animals.  The leading thought here is "God created" and not "vegetarian animals."  That's something foreign to the text.

Jarrod

Opinions are a dime a dozen. Show me some proof it doesn't mean that Jarrod!

Because it doesn't say that!!  It says exactly what Wycliffes_Shillelagh  said it says.  Besides can you imagine the changes that would have to take place in order for an herbivore to turn into  carnivore?  Not only would the teeth have to change, but their entire digestive system would have to change.  And the fish  --  I can just imagine the sharks swimming hither and yon in the ocean looking for some plants to eat and not finding any when all of sudden, unbeknownst to them, Adam sins, saying, "Hey finally, something to eat".

Yeah imagine that!
Unbelievable...we are talking about a God who just created the whole universe, the earth and all what is in and on it from absolutely nothing.
And we are supposed to trip over the "impossible" event to change a few teeth and digestive systems.

Like we trip over "impossible" evolutionary changes?  But that is another topic.

So it was God who caused all the catastrophic and ruinous change in the universe??  And here all the time I thought it was Adam who caused it when he sinned.  I find it strange indeed that God would bring about such malicious alteration of the supposedly "perfect and uncorrupted" universe He just created.  More than strange.  I find it absolutely wrong to even think it.  The Bible doesn't say it, and there is no physical evidence to even suggest it.

AVZ

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #58 on: Tue Feb 24, 2015 - 07:26:58 »
The outside was not always the outside.

Gen. 1:30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

All the animals on earth were vegetarian. They didn't begin to eat each other until after the Fall. During the Millennium animals will return to vegetarians.
I find it silly too.  Aside from the common sense test which was already pointed out, just look at what it actually says.

It says God made green plants and that they were food for the animals.  There's no mention that they were the exclusive food of the animals.  The leading thought here is "God created" and not "vegetarian animals."  That's something foreign to the text.

Jarrod

Opinions are a dime a dozen. Show me some proof it doesn't mean that Jarrod!

Because it doesn't say that!!  It says exactly what Wycliffes_Shillelagh  said it says.  Besides can you imagine the changes that would have to take place in order for an herbivore to turn into  carnivore?  Not only would the teeth have to change, but their entire digestive system would have to change.  And the fish  --  I can just imagine the sharks swimming hither and yon in the ocean looking for some plants to eat and not finding any when all of sudden, unbeknownst to them, Adam sins, saying, "Hey finally, something to eat".

Yeah imagine that!
Unbelievable...we are talking about a God who just created the whole universe, the earth and all what is in and on it from absolutely nothing.
And we are supposed to trip over the "impossible" event to change a few teeth and digestive systems.

Like we trip over "impossible" evolutionary changes?  But that is another topic.

So it was God who caused all the catastrophic and ruinous change in the universe??  And here all the time I thought it was Adam who caused it when he sinned.  I find it strange indeed that God would bring about such malicious alteration of the supposedly "perfect and uncorrupted" universe He just created.  More than strange.  I find it absolutely wrong to even think it.  The Bible doesn't say it, and there is no physical evidence to even suggest it.

It is totally irrelevant what you think is strange.
There is no argument to find in "God didn't do it because I think it's strange".

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #59 on: Tue Feb 24, 2015 - 07:37:02 »
4WD are you having difficulty selling your interpretations?

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #60 on: Tue Feb 24, 2015 - 07:43:32 »
The outside was not always the outside.

Gen. 1:30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

All the animals on earth were vegetarian. They didn't begin to eat each other until after the Fall. During the Millennium animals will return to vegetarians.
I find it silly too.  Aside from the common sense test which was already pointed out, just look at what it actually says.

It says God made green plants and that they were food for the animals.  There's no mention that they were the exclusive food of the animals.  The leading thought here is "God created" and not "vegetarian animals."  That's something foreign to the text.

Jarrod

Opinions are a dime a dozen. Show me some proof it doesn't mean that Jarrod!

Because it doesn't say that!!  It says exactly what Wycliffes_Shillelagh  said it says.  Besides can you imagine the changes that would have to take place in order for an herbivore to turn into  carnivore?  Not only would the teeth have to change, but their entire digestive system would have to change.  And the fish  --  I can just imagine the sharks swimming hither and yon in the ocean looking for some plants to eat and not finding any when all of sudden, unbeknownst to them, Adam sins, saying, "Hey finally, something to eat".

Yeah imagine that!
Unbelievable...we are talking about a God who just created the whole universe, the earth and all what is in and on it from absolutely nothing.
And we are supposed to trip over the "impossible" event to change a few teeth and digestive systems.

Like we trip over "impossible" evolutionary changes?  But that is another topic.

So it was God who caused all the catastrophic and ruinous change in the universe??  And here all the time I thought it was Adam who caused it when he sinned.  I find it strange indeed that God would bring about such malicious alteration of the supposedly "perfect and uncorrupted" universe He just created.  More than strange.  I find it absolutely wrong to even think it.  The Bible doesn't say it, and there is no physical evidence to even suggest it.

It is totally irrelevant what you think is strange.
There is no argument to find in "God didn't do it because I think it's strange".

And there is no argument to find in "God did it because I think He did".  As I said, the Bible doesn't say it, and there is no physical evidence to even suggest it.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #61 on: Tue Feb 24, 2015 - 07:44:34 »
4WD are you having difficulty selling your interpretations?

Only among the biblically challenged.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #62 on: Tue Feb 24, 2015 - 09:32:55 »
The outside was not always the outside.

Gen. 1:30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

All the animals on earth were vegetarian. They didn't begin to eat each other until after the Fall. During the Millennium animals will return to vegetarians.
I find it silly too.  Aside from the common sense test which was already pointed out, just look at what it actually says.

It says God made green plants and that they were food for the animals.  There's no mention that they were the exclusive food of the animals.  The leading thought here is "God created" and not "vegetarian animals."  That's something foreign to the text.

Jarrod

I am not sure if I can agree with that.
The text says: "I have given every green herb for meat", which practically implies that instead of meat, the animals were given "green herbs" for food.

If I were to say "I give you soap for toothpaste" then the interpretation would be that you do not have toothpaste and instead I gave you soap to brush your teeth.
"Meat" is used with the 17th century meaning, which is equivalent to modern usage of the word "food."

Gesenius' lexicon of Hebrew:
אָכְלָה = 'oklah
food
food, eating

If necessary, I am also prepared with the British dictionary definition and an excerpt from Chaucer showing this usage during this time period in this part of the world.  Let me know if you need further convincing.

Jarrod



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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #63 on: Tue Feb 24, 2015 - 11:30:46 »
The outside was not always the outside.

Gen. 1:30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

All the animals on earth were vegetarian. They didn't begin to eat each other until after the Fall. During the Millennium animals will return to vegetarians.
I find it silly too.  Aside from the common sense test which was already pointed out, just look at what it actually says.

It says God made green plants and that they were food for the animals.  There's no mention that they were the exclusive food of the animals.  The leading thought here is "God created" and not "vegetarian animals."  That's something foreign to the text.

Jarrod

I am not sure if I can agree with that.
The text says: "I have given every green herb for meat", which practically implies that instead of meat, the animals were given "green herbs" for food.

If I were to say "I give you soap for toothpaste" then the interpretation would be that you do not have toothpaste and instead I gave you soap to brush your teeth.
"Meat" is used with the 17th century meaning, which is equivalent to modern usage of the word "food."

Gesenius' lexicon of Hebrew:
אָכְלָה = 'oklah
food
food, eating

If necessary, I am also prepared with the British dictionary definition and an excerpt from Chaucer showing this usage during this time period in this part of the world.  Let me know if you need further convincing.

Jarrod

Thanks. I didn't know that.

Buster D Body Crab

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #64 on: Tue Feb 24, 2015 - 11:36:35 »
Hi. New man here trying to figure things out. After all these pages my question is this. Is it original sin that we carry from Adam and Eve? Because I've heard that is strictly a Catholic thing. Or is it the sin nature that we're born with? Which I've heard is the Protestant pov. Sin nature being we're just prone to our carnal nature which is naturally in conflict with God and his righteous order of things.


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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #65 on: Tue Feb 24, 2015 - 11:45:20 »
Hi. New man here trying to figure things out. After all these pages my question is this. Is it original sin that we carry from Adam and Eve? Because I've heard that is strictly a Catholic thing. Or is it the sin nature that we're born with? Which I've heard is the Protestant pov. Sin nature being we're just prone to our carnal nature which is naturally in conflict with God and his righteous order of things.
Yes, only Catholics are guilty of Original Sin.  The rest of us are innocent.  ::whistle::

Buster D Body Crab

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #66 on: Tue Feb 24, 2015 - 18:22:52 »
A serious answer too much to ask for?
Note there is a difference with regard to my question that seeks clarification. Original sin has a different definition than that of sin nature.




Offline Charlie24

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #67 on: Tue Feb 24, 2015 - 18:33:09 »
4WD are you having difficulty selling your interpretations?

Only among the biblically challenged.

Good response! Your not so far from the truth.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #68 on: Tue Feb 24, 2015 - 18:38:36 »
A serious answer too much to ask for?
Note there is a difference with regard to my question that seeks clarification. Original sin has a different definition than that of sin nature.

Great care needs to be taken when discussing this topic.  There is original sin; there is total depravity; there is sin nature; there is sinful nature; there is flesh.  All of these take on different connotations.  It is of interest that for most English translations, the only one of these that appears is the last one, i.e., "flesh".  The term sinful nature does occur twice in the NIV, but that is a theologically imposed translation where most versions translate it simply as flesh.  That should give you a clue about the sensitivity of the subject matter.

Buster D Body Crab

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #69 on: Tue Feb 24, 2015 - 18:59:46 »
Sure. I'm sensitive and serious about learning the differences and since you note they are there can we pursue a dialog?