Author Topic: Original Sin  (Read 9811 times)

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Offline Charlie24

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #70 on: Tue Feb 24, 2015 - 19:18:37 »
A serious answer too much to ask for?
Note there is a difference with regard to my question that seeks clarification. Original sin has a different definition than that of sin nature.

Great care needs to be taken when discussing this topic.  There is original sin; there is total depravity; there is sin nature; there is sinful nature; there is flesh.  All of these take on different connotations.  It is of interest that for most English translations, the only one of these that appears is the last one, i.e., "flesh".  The term sinful nature does occur twice in the NIV, but that is a theologically imposed translation where most versions translate it simply as flesh.  That should give you a clue about the sensitivity of the subject matter.

Great care does need to be taken when one deviates from the truth of Gods word.

How convenient are the translations to help one do so.

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #71 on: Wed Feb 25, 2015 - 13:24:03 »
A serious answer too much to ask for?

Note there is a difference with regard to my question that seeks clarification. Original sin has a different definition than that of sin nature.

I suppose we could do that.  I just couldn't resist.

Yes, there is a difference.  "Original sin" is typically understood today to mean that each person is personally, individually, held guilty for the sin of Adam.  Therefore, we start our lives in a position in which we are either (a) in enmity with God, or (b) simply dead to God.  This is a man-made doctrine.  Specifically, the theologian Augustine created/popularized it in roughly the 4th century AD.

What is Biblical, though, is the existence of iniquity.  With apologies, I just explained iniquity to someone else a few days ago, so I'm going to provide a link to that thread, as I feel I explained it well there.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/please-help-me-to-understand/msg1054949019/#msg1054949019

So, yes, there exists a "sin nature" - a tendency towards sin.  There also exists an innate disposition towards certain sins based on genetics and inheritance.  There exists (an unintentional) practice of "teaching" bad behavior, and it being passed down from generation to generation.

We all start from a disadvantaged position - the playing field is utterly stacked against us, largely because our fathers and our fathers' fathers screwed up somewhere along the way.  But, I do not believe anybody is actually guilty of someone else's sin.

Jarrod

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #72 on: Wed Feb 25, 2015 - 14:11:55 »
A serious answer too much to ask for?

Note there is a difference with regard to my question that seeks clarification. Original sin has a different definition than that of sin nature.

I suppose we could do that.  I just couldn't resist.

Yes, there is a difference.  "Original sin" is typically understood today to mean that each person is personally, individually, held guilty for the sin of Adam.  Therefore, we start our lives in a position in which we are either (a) in enmity with God, or (b) simply dead to God.  This is a man-made doctrine.  Specifically, the theologian Augustine created/popularized it in roughly the 4th century AD.

What is Biblical, though, is the existence of iniquity.  With apologies, I just explained iniquity to someone else a few days ago, so I'm going to provide a link to that thread, as I feel I explained it well there.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/please-help-me-to-understand/msg1054949019/#msg1054949019

So, yes, there exists a "sin nature" - a tendency towards sin.  There also exists an innate disposition towards certain sins based on genetics and inheritance.  There exists (an unintentional) practice of "teaching" bad behavior, and it being passed down from generation to generation.

We all start from a disadvantaged position - the playing field is utterly stacked against us, largely because our fathers and our fathers' fathers screwed up somewhere along the way.  But, I do not believe anybody is actually guilty of someone else's sin.

Jarrod

On this I agree. I would add one note. There's not a single one of us who wouldn't have done the same thing as Adam and Eve.

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #73 on: Wed Feb 25, 2015 - 14:31:53 »
I followed your link. That did help.

I read in Ezekiel when I was looking for familial sins in a bible verse search engine this: The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Ezekiel 18:20.

How does that square with the iniquity passing down. And also is that what is known as generational curse?

A serious answer too much to ask for?

Note there is a difference with regard to my question that seeks clarification. Original sin has a different definition than that of sin nature.

I suppose we could do that.  I just couldn't resist.

Yes, there is a difference.  "Original sin" is typically understood today to mean that each person is personally, individually, held guilty for the sin of Adam.  Therefore, we start our lives in a position in which we are either (a) in enmity with God, or (b) simply dead to God.  This is a man-made doctrine.  Specifically, the theologian Augustine created/popularized it in roughly the 4th century AD.

What is Biblical, though, is the existence of iniquity.  With apologies, I just explained iniquity to someone else a few days ago, so I'm going to provide a link to that thread, as I feel I explained it well there.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/please-help-me-to-understand/msg1054949019/#msg1054949019

So, yes, there exists a "sin nature" - a tendency towards sin.  There also exists an innate disposition towards certain sins based on genetics and inheritance.  There exists (an unintentional) practice of "teaching" bad behavior, and it being passed down from generation to generation.

We all start from a disadvantaged position - the playing field is utterly stacked against us, largely because our fathers and our fathers' fathers screwed up somewhere along the way.  But, I do not believe anybody is actually guilty of someone else's sin.

Jarrod

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #74 on: Wed Feb 25, 2015 - 17:26:34 »
I read in Ezekiel when I was looking for familial sins in a bible verse search engine this: The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Ezekiel 18:20.

How does that square with the iniquity passing down.
Just need a little more context... up 6 verses:

Eze 18:14
Now, look, if he [an evil man] beget a son, that sees all his father's sins which he has done, but considers, and does not such like [the same things his father did]...


So what Ezekiel says is that if a son, despite seeing his father do all these evil things... and Ezekiel gives quite a list of sins, which make the chapter pretty heavy...  If the son, doesn't do these things, despite his upbringing, then he will not be held accountable for them.

So, that's what I said, above.  Although daddy's sins leave us in a disadvantaged place, where we are likely to act out his behavior, we are NOT guilty of them if we manage to break the cycle and abstain from his evil.

(We should/could probably qualify Ezekiel a little further... he was prophesying judgment to a specific group of Israelites.)

Quote
And also is that what is known as generational curse?
Church jargon can be pretty loaded.  I suspect that if you polled 100 churchgoers as to what a 'generational curse' was, you would get at least a dozen answers.  This would probably be one of them.  ::smile::

Jarrod

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #74 on: Wed Feb 25, 2015 - 17:26:34 »



Buster The Body Crab

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #75 on: Wed Feb 25, 2015 - 17:29:18 »
Very good. I should have read more. It's all about context and I should have thought about that. Thank you for expounding on that.

Offline Hexalpa

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #76 on: Fri Feb 12, 2016 - 08:00:06 »
People are sinners end of story and anyone who does not believe in that we are all sinners, then such a person who says he is not a sinner is of Satan.
Original Sin is just as it says, man is a sinner, it's his nature and you need Jesus Christ to be your Lord and Saviour, or one is totally lost in Sin.
The Sin nature is not always a bad or seen to be a nasty person but in fact a person who comes across as real nice person is or can be the worst of them all.

Satan is a real nice bloke I can inform you of that, I am a business man and I have seen that many a time just how cunning devious person the real nice overly sweet people can be.

Satan will come across as a real great bloke and many will love him just like they did with Hitler but such a person is only a man and a sinner so his works are but only filthy rags to God.

People love sin and that's why the killed Jesus Christ, if they were not of sin they would not of done what they did, the fact he did nothing wrong at all.
You can see how people under sin want to get back at other people and they don't understand Christ Jesus truly at all.

When one can truly see what people of sin done to Jesus Christ you will know who and what your truly are, it's shocking to behold ! and when you do comprehend the truth of it you will run to Jesus, because he is the only one who can save you and the world.

Offline Ohan

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #77 on: Mon Jul 08, 2019 - 23:18:47 »
Adam ou Eve disobeyed the Lord ~ but we don't think much of sins of the father: all human have a sinful nature ~ but A baby human is no born with sin ~ don't think so ```

Offline SherryLB

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #78 on: Tue Jul 09, 2019 - 05:21:29 »
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/classics/jonathanedwards/original_sin.shtml

This is without question the most powerful work ever written on " Original Sin"~RB

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #79 on: Tue Jul 09, 2019 - 06:32:43 »
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/classics/jonathanedwards/original_sin.shtml

This is without question the most powerful work ever written on " Original Sin"~RB
It takes only a single verse to prove just how wrong all of that is.

Zec 12:1  The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel: Thus declares the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:

The spirit of man that God forms within him is not dead.  That anyone would really think otherwise is blasphemy.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 09, 2019 - 06:35:18 by 4WD »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #80 on: Tue Feb 11, 2020 - 05:27:47 »
It takes only a single verse to prove just how wrong all of that is.

Zec 12:1  The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel: Thus declares the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:

The spirit of man that God forms within him is not dead.  That anyone would really think otherwise is blasphemy.
Let's try to listen to what the apostle Paul tells us in Romans 7.

Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


Do you believe what Paul says there concerning him, that is, mankind? That in him dwelleth sin and that in him dwelleth no good?

And what do we see in that? That mankind, Adam's kind, Paul, me, and you, are flesh, that is, sin dwelleth therein, as such where dwelleth no good thing. That is no less, the flesh in its corrupt state. Such was not in the beginning, before Adam sinned. For sin was not and dwelleth not in unfallen Adam (in his flesh). But that was what became of the flesh nature of man because of Adam's offense. Man's flesh was corrupted, in that, in it sin dwells, making mankind (infants and all) unclean and impure, having such a corrupted nature (in the flesh). And so, goes the posterity of Adam, for what man can bring a clean and pure thing out of an unclean and impure?

Now, man is flesh and spirit. I have told you of the flesh. What about the spirit?

You said "The spirit of man that God forms within him is not dead." Of course. But the spirit that God forms is the spirit (of the man), which together with the flesh, make up the man. It is what makes the man be a living soul. While God is said to be the one who forms it within him, it is in the sense of creation, not of giving the person's character.

Mankind is of a living spirit and flesh, flesh where sin makes its dwelling the very moment of its creation. This make up of mankind, the kind of fallen Adam, as a whole, is one of an unclean, impure, and corrupted (with sin) nature, that is, the fallen human nature. This is what every human being is, that is, of the seed of fallen Adam. Man, without exception, and unless made clean, pure, and holy, is separate and can not be with the pure and holy God. 
 
From birth, each man grows to develop physically and spiritually. And in the course of that, man is exposed to the world and develops his person, his character. And what can be more than influential to him regarding that, but his flesh? That being the fact, tells us why the natural man was and is found to be sinful, that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually, for sin dwelleth in his flesh.

That is the sad truth, but the truth nonetheless, concerning mankind, the kind of Adam. That is what resulted from Adam's offense.

Of course, the good news is God's salvation in Jesus Christ.

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


Offline RB

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #81 on: Tue Feb 11, 2020 - 05:48:02 »
« Last Edit: Tue Feb 11, 2020 - 05:50:21 by RB »

Offline Ohan

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #82 on: Sun Jan 24, 2021 - 22:39:21 »
But do you believe we are born with Original Sin~ yes we were kicked out of the garden and all that goes with that, I think we suffer from that sin buy do not carry it ```

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #83 on: Mon Jan 25, 2021 - 05:21:17 »
But do you believe we are born with Original Sin~ yes we were kicked out of the garden and all that goes with that, I think we suffer from that sin buy do not carry it ```
When was the last time that you were in the garden?  So far as the Bible says, there were only two people ever in the garden to get kicked out and you were either of them.

Offline Ohan

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #84 on: Mon Feb 15, 2021 - 14:06:47 »
The Last time I was there, Turks were on the east and west, Iran on the south, there was no access to the sea, and there was shooting from the east side. You're right we're things are not comfortable Bardazin metch (in the Garden) but we carry no sin of our Father ```