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Author Topic: Our things pre-destined to happen, or do we freely shape our destiny?  (Read 10908 times)

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Offline JesusRocksMySocks

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The subject asks it all :)

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Offline soterion

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Some things are predestined, some are not.  Jesus' death was predestined (Acts 2:23), but his brothers' deaths were not necessarily (John 7:6-8).

I believe that when Paul talked about predestination, he was referring mainly to the method (God's part) and means (our part) of salvation.  Certain things were predestined by God from the beginning of time and throughout history to take place so as to bring about man's salvation.  We should not take from such passages that every aspect of our lives and all of our decisions have been decided for us.  Man still has choice.  It is still up to each individual how he is going to respond to God's offer of salvation.

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HRoberson

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Generally, things are not predestined.

God has on occasion selected people and caused events to effect His will.

While it might seem like a good idea to be selected by God in this way, a perusal of Scripture will reveal that there is often a considerable downside to such a selection (beatings, huntings, shipwrecks, floggings, crucifixions, stonings, worry, dejection, depression, lonliness, betrayals, deaths of close relatives and friends, etc.).

Dorian

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HRoberson, I forget where in the Bible but it states clearly in it that we are PRE-DESTINED.

Also if God knows the beginning, and end of each human and time then that means we are Destined.

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Offline Jon-Marc

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The subject asks it all :)

Both. God has determined some things to be and nothing will change that, and we choose whether we will do right or do wrong. We choose how to live our lives--unless we ask God for what He wants. That, unfortunately, is why so many fail and are miserable. They leave God out of the decision making for their lives and say, "I will do it my way."

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Dorian

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So the little young girl who is sodomized by her father and his brothers, This innocent girl asked for this? Was it her choice?

Seems more like she had no choice, And the angels watched as she was devoured mercilessly

Offline Elaine

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So the little young girl who is sodomized by her father and his brothers, This innocent girl asked for this? Was it her choice?

Seems more like she had no choice, And the angels watched as she was devoured mercilessly
Yes, it does "seem" that way doesn't it?
Our perspective is incredibly and profoundly limited.

Let's say the EM sprectrum (electromagnetic) is this big:
(---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------)

This is how much our limited senses can perceive: (  -  )
A rough, inaccurate example. There are many things we will not understand with
our teeny itty bitty brain.
Now, because I believe in reincarnation- the above question is easily answered.

Dorian

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Yes Elaine

And this brings us to the question of Karma

Offline comfy

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Karma . . . well, wouldn't that be character, more or less. I would think our character is going to decide what we choose. And our character can not change its own self.

So, how can a person change oneself from being selfish, into being one who all of a sudden chooses to love and obey God and seek to love any and all people?

And, Elaine, if someone has come from a previous life, and is supposed to be on a journey of improvement or getting worse, how . . . again . . . can one's *character* which is a set nature of being change its own self to become better or worse so there can be improvement or worse, from one life to another?

ex cathedra

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Our things pre-destined to happen, or do we freely shape our destiny?

Calvanists who believe in predestination ---would  say every that happens must happen that way.

Lutherans who believe in single predestination do "not believe" every that happens must happen that way
and can happen no other way .
see futher ( Lutheran confessions)


Lutherans  do agree however That the elect are chosen by God before the creation of the world to have saving faith in Jesus .

Lutherans strongly disagree with Calvanists   that God chose the rest of the human population  to punish in  hell.

Lutherans believe if some one rejects Jesus its their own doing and  fault ---------not Gods.

For God does not want any human to suffer in hell.


Offline 3AM

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The subject asks it all :)
God set circumstances and situations in motion....BUT, it is we, who decides the final outcome, as we relate to those situations and circumstances.


Those events, God sets into motion, are to bring us to God....NEVER away from God....BUT AGAIN, THE FINAL CHOICE IS UP TO US.

God NEVER forces anyone, to be saved or lost.

Offline freeman

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God's Will is pre-destined. Our will is our choice to follow God's Will or not.

Offline Eagle

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Rom 8:26  Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27  And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31  What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Offline 3AM

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God's Will is pre-destined. Our will is our choice to follow God's Will or not.
God's will is this:

 Eccl.  12:13   Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.  [/u]

  12:14   For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil. 

AND, the purpose of God's Day of Judgment.... to show who has done the will of God.

Offline RalphMalph

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"Oh, I'm waiting for the Karama God to strike me down!" ::whistle::


That pretty much answers it.

Forgiveness kills Karma -100 Fold!


xDarkEmox

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I believe that we are to shape our own destiny, and everything that we do ultimately changes our life, for example, deciding to stay in bed instead of going to the shop to buy that loaf of bread, where at the shop you would met the love of your life.

Offline comfy

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I believe that we are to shape our own destiny, and everything that we do ultimately changes our life, for example, deciding to stay in bed instead of going to the shop to buy that loaf of bread, where at the shop you would met the love of your life.
But, Dark Emo, we do have spiritual connections that have a lot to do with who and what we get together with. So, in your example, how you are spiritually could have something to do with why you did not connect with that person. Or, God  knew the person would not have been so great, and He made sure it didn't happen.

A number of us have gotten together with some love of our life, but then decided we were not married to who we supposed we were marrying. So, did we really choose, then???::idea::

When we make "choices", we may not know what really is going on and what we really are choosing.
How many of us were planning on doing what we are doing, now ??? *Did* we really choose this??? Or, were we played along by who knows who that was manipulating the financial situation, the job circumstances, etc., so that we would choose the way we did? When we evaluate by how a romantic companion makes things look, or judge by how the media or politicians or work administrators make things appear, we can make choices for what isn't  really there ::doh:: Jesus does say, "'Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.'" (John 7:24) God knows the secrets ::idea:: With Him, we can be directed according to what God knows is really true and right: "And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

How we really are in our character has a lot to do with who and what we connect with, and how we then are set and programmed to perceive things and people. We can filter out what just does not "fit" with how we see fit to see things, and then we can make our choices according to the *dictation* of our nature with its *dictating* of how we perceive ::smile:: So, are we really free, while dictating in the dark?

HRoberson

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Depends.

If God decides you're gonna be fried by lightening, it's gonna happen.

Short of that, you get to decide quite a bit.

Like who you want to be.

Offline AngelLover89

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I think from our limited point of view, we have free will, but God knows all we are going to do, Him being all-knowing.

Oh, how much higher are His ways than ours :)

Offline water

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Well.....BOTH  ::what?!?!::


Within our frame of reference, we have free will.

But this does not prevent all being predestined, or being "foreknown".


Example:

God predestined that Jonah go to Nineveh.

When Jonah refused,

God surrounded Jonah with a set of circumstances out of which,

Jonah - of his own free will,

changed his mind and decided it would be better if he went.


God is the God of the circumstances of life.

He already knows us completely,

and knows exactly what choices we will make in circumstances,

even when we do NOT....


So to us it is free will, but to God it is all foreknown or predestined IMO  ::lookaround::

Offline ilFantoccioYoshimine

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The reality is that while God knows everything that we will choose, it is still our free will entirely as to WHAT we choose.

God KNOWING about our choices in advance, doesn't meant God MADE our choices. It just means He's aware of them. But it's us, totally and completely, that make the choices. If there were no free will of man, then the punishment of hell for making bad choices would be unjust... an impossibility for a perfectly-just God. It is because we really are able to choose, that we are also, in the next breath, RESPONSIBLE for our choices.

This is a major reason why "free ticket to heaven" religions fly in the face of reason... If we are responsible for our free-will choices, how is it in any way justice to take no consequences for our own actions AT ALL, even though Christ did die to make it even a possibility for us to get to heaven. (Before then, heaven was "shut against men" ... eg, even if you were good, nobody was getting in. The good weren't in hell, but they couldn't get in to heaven either, until Christ's sacrifice made it possible again.) Christ may have loved us enough to make it possible for us to go to heaven again, but Christ did not commit our sins. We do bear the responsibility for them, and that very much suggests that we will have consequences for our sins.

This is further backed up by the Bible telling us to do charity to pay for our sins. Well.. if Christ was going to just let us off for all of them... why say that? Why say "charity covereth a  multitude of sins?" if Christ was going to just totally and completely eradicate the entire debt of ALL of our sins? What's there to pay for, if the bill has been paid? But the bible talks of charity covering a multitude of sins, and also of doing penance... PENANCE... which suggests a debt yet to be paid, for the responsibility for our actions that we ourselves bear. (People misunderstanding this makes religions that believe in penance just look like a lot of sick puppies who like to hurt themselves... but if you have any concept of actual justice, and especially of the abomination of sin in the face of an infinitely good God... suddenly it all makes much more sense.)

The DEVIL believed in Christ. He Knew Christ was God (at least by the end). But where is he? The saints lived holy lives of virtue, and did very much penance to PAY for their sins (gasp!) ... and where are they? Now without the Cross, there was no possibility of heaven, but... these people believed in justice, and justice does NOT say we are now absolved completely from the responsibility of our actions, as long as we believe in a the unchangeable reality that Christ was God. That's a prerequisite, of course! But that's not all...

Justice is not about seeing someone innocent pay for your crimes and then getting a big grin on your face and saying, "Ha! Look at that... free ride for me, baby! Yeah!" That just indicates a complete lack of any consciousness of responsibility for one's own actions, and the honor to desire to pay for them one's self.

But that's another topic... (I probably won't get into further.)

The issue of free will does, however, indicate responsibility, and responsibility, according to perfect justice, lies with the perpetrator.

Offline blackdiamond

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Here's my two cents...

Consider a bowling ball rolling off the end of a table.  We would all conclude that it'll fall due to the law of gravity.  Our knowing the future result doesn't change the future in any way.

God knows everything that will ever happen, but that doesn't make any difference for our power of choice.

If you were to offer someone $1,000,000 with no strings attached, it would be fair to say that everyone would take it, a predictable outcome, but our knowing doesn't take away their right to walk away.  The difference is that God always knows when there is always a small chance that we don't.

 

     
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