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Author Topic: The results of my bible reading  (Read 2125 times)
HRoberson
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« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2009, 10:03:43 PM »

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Yes, that is quite clear. Why you thought it would take a book to explain that is beyond me. Of course, you conveniently ignore the positive things that religious faith has produced. Small things like hospitals, orphanages, soup kitchens, homeless shelters, medical missions, and what not. Yes it certainly seems that religion needs to be cured.

No matter what good the church tries to accomplish, it cannot erase atrocities like the Spanish inquisition. It is no different to me, if Neo Nazis organizations did charity work. Does that new bit of helpfulness erase the holocaust? No. So should churches be held blameless in light of their contributions to society? No.
Their belief has killed more than even the worst political mass murders, there is no moral, no deeper meaning, no act of kindness that makes up for that.

Perhaps you could provide an example of a perfect institution for me, or are you this disenchanted with everything and everyone - except yourself of course.

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You're getting a bit too emotional again - you've started to leave out entire words and stray off point. Take a breath. I don't know of any believer that "hides behind child murder." There is a difference between trying to explain something that occured a few mellinia ago, and urging genocide tomorrow. I don't know of many Christians that urge genocide, or who have urged genocide during my life time. It is a bit disengenuous to apply today's standards of conduct on people thousands of years ago.

Thankfulldad, just made child murder by making all seem like an act of love. Disgusting. I have seen Christians who urge of the genocide of Islam, they don’t say it directly, but that’s what they want.
Both religions are extraordinarily ignorant. But the fact is both sides urge for conflict, one bluntly, and one hiding by an act of altruism.
I will take the same standards of comparison for Christianity from back then and Christianity now, as I do as Nazi’s then, and Neo Nazi’s now.
Pretend like I'm not Thankfuldad nor have I read his posts. Just try and stay with me, OK?
I would be careful declaring that others are ignorant if I were you.
You are aware that both Islam and Christianity are not fully represented by their various factions or individuals, aren't you?
If you're going to take the same standards of Christianity then, then technically speaking you're going to have to stop about 2000 years ago. Despite that, you reveal a startling ignorance of Human history, and a just as startling ability to hold on to a fabricated grudge. That tendency doesn't lead to peaceful existence but eventually will lead you to unpeaceful and boorish behavior based on your own sense of self-righteousness.

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My only concern about Zen is it's abject denial of a Creator God, rather than simple agnosticism, its lack of ability to explain Man's purpose, and its lack of hope.

Hope is just as evil as faith. Also, does a rock have a purpose? Does a plant, a animal, a star? Besides what is naturally attuned to each thing there is no hidden purpose to any of these things. And it comes off as arrogant for humanity to consider itself better than these things enough to have a higher purpose. Humanity may have developed intelligence, but that is amid a swath of weaknesses, that make us equal if not less than what’s around us.
This explains your rather dark, destructive and bitter attitude toward things and people you don't understand. You have (or won't allow yourself to acknowledge) hope. This actually explains a lot, including the apparent anger you have against some percieved slight you have suffered. I guess we all need a target, and religion apparently has become yours. That's a pity because I suspect you could be fun to bar hop with.

Who says the purpose is hidden?

Is it really arrogant to acknowledge that humans can reason abstractly and that most others existences can't? That isn't arrogant, it simply is. I'm thinking you have a problem accepting yourself. You do have an interesting set of priorities.

This post was much more on target but I am interested in why you have avoided addressing my other observations.
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HRoberson, MC, MS, LMFT
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I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was going to blame you.

...to love mercy, act justly, and walk humbly with God

Sometimes you just have to let it go.

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« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2009, 01:30:55 AM »

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Perhaps you could provide an example of a perfect institution for me, or are you this disenchanted with everything and everyone - except yourself of course.
 

Well, I don’t have a particular fondness for myself either. There is no perfect institution. Even my own has its issues.
But mine has no committed mass murder, so I consider it moot to compare.

Quote
Pretend like I'm not Thankfuldad nor have I read his posts. Just try and stay with me, OK?
I would be careful declaring that others are ignorant if I were you.
You are aware that both Islam and Christianity are not fully represented by their various factions or individuals, aren't you?
If you're going to take the same standards of Christianity then, then technically speaking you're going to have to stop about 2000 years ago. Despite that, you reveal a startling ignorance of Human history, and a just as startling ability to hold on to a fabricated grudge. That tendency doesn't lead to peaceful existence but eventually will lead you to unpeaceful and boorish behavior based on your own sense of self-righteousness.

I consider Christianity and Judaism to be within the same family. When I say Christianity I am referring to all regions that hold any part of the bible in their belief, its much simpler to put them in the same boat than to separate them in every discussion, and Christian’s still hold onto the books from before Jesus, so holding them responsible for what’s in it doesn’t seem out of place to me.
But only going back 2000 years. You have the Crusades, the Spanish inquisition, Salem witch trails, and many other atrocities up till recently partly do to America opening the door to government without religion
Technically one of my many odd traits is know the real meaning of word, but saying it with a complexly different meaning behind it.
As far as an ability to hold a grudge, it is more of a knack. The one thing I have always had in life. Is the near perfect knack to hold a grudge and never let go of it. I have honestly never forgiven. I have let my own personal grudge against someone not affect our friend or even tip my hand that I still hold something against them

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This explains your rather dark, destructive and bitter attitude toward things and people you don't understand. You have (or won't allow yourself to acknowledge) hope. This actually explains a lot, including the apparent anger you have against some percieved slight you have suffered. I guess we all need a target, and religion apparently has become yours. That's a pity because I suspect you could be fun to bar hop with.

Who says the purpose is hidden?

Is it really arrogant to acknowledge that humans can reason abstractly and that most others existences can't? That isn't arrogant, it simply is. I'm thinking you have a problem accepting yourself. You do have an interesting set of priorities.

This post was much more on target but I am interested in why you have avoided addressing my other observations.

It’s more like, I had only enough time to address the issues I considered most important.
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« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2009, 01:30:55 AM »

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HRoberson
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« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2009, 01:13:40 PM »

Well now, we're getting somewhere.

It is quite convenient to lump everyone I don't like into one group. No need for all that messy teasing apart what any one of them might or might not be guilty of. Just decide you don't like Asians and shoot them all - after all, they must be guilty of something. Just as a pointer: Muslims aren't Christians even if they do respect the Bible as Holy. Convenient lumping of people together if you ask me. Since it isn't just faith holders that have slaughtered others, why not just lump all humans together and hate yourself?

Your grudge appears to have moved from one against God, to those who claim to follow Him. I have no intention of defending what any individual or even every Christian organization might do. The faith is held by fallible humans who do stupid things. That in itself does not invalidate the faith itself.

Your organization may not have committed mass murder, but it's leader's tendency toward contempt and hate for those he doesn't like and doesn't understand is a pretty close second.

I suspected that you probably had something against yourself. How's that working for you?

Holding grudges can be fun, but doing so seldom leads to what you state you want. Rather, holding grudges usually leads to bitterness, annoyances, closed-mindedness, and general pain-in-the-butt behavior. Quite a distance from all that peace and compassion you say you want. That eventuality seems quite evident in your posts.

Interesting to know what a word means and then use it with your own made up meaning. I suspect that doesn't really help dialogue to any extent.

You do realize that your grudges are leaking out.

Here's a book for you: The Velveteen Principles. It might help.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 05:38:38 PM by HRoberson » Logged

HRoberson, MC, MS, LMFT
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I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was going to blame you.

...to love mercy, act justly, and walk humbly with God

Sometimes you just have to let it go.

http://www.robersonblog.blogspot.com
farouk
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« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2009, 11:58:29 PM »

"He that cometh to God, must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that dilligently seek Him." Hebrews 11
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John 3.16 contains great theology, without doubt.

Read God's Word prayerfully every day; it's a joy and privilege.

If folks feel they must have TATTOOS, have you considered having faith related designs tattooed?

(And try vacationing in the South: plenty of sun, and some great churches down there!)
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« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2009, 12:17:40 AM »

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Well now, we're getting somewhere.

It is quite convenient to lump everyone I don't like into one group. No need for all that messy teasing apart what any one of them might or might not be guilty of. Just decide you don't like Asians and shoot them all - after all, they must be guilty of something. Just as a pointer: Muslims aren't Christians even if they do respect the Bible as Holy. Convenient lumping of people together if you ask me. Since it isn't just faith holders that have slaughtered others, why not just lump all humans together and hate yourself?

Your grudge appears to have moved from one against God, to those who claim to follow Him. I have no intention of defending what any individual or even every Christian organization might do. The faith is held by fallible humans who do stupid things. That in itself does not invalidate the faith itself.
I understand Christianity and religion in general.
My mind is open to anything that has not proven to be murderous. Religion and especially Christianity deservers no say in its defense. I have given more than a fair chance and has proven to be worthless.
Also how I word myself through the internet and how I word myself in reality has little to do with each other. My grudges are leaking out because I let myself be candid.

My grudge is against God and the people who chose to follow Him. Also, lumping together Judaism, Muslims, and Christians is not too far fetch because each has the same God just a different view on him.
Christianity is just Judaism + Jesus and Muslims are Judaism + Mohammed.
Also race has little to do with why people make a choice, Religion does. Religion on its own needs elimination. The one’s I have picked a bone on are the one’s that are a higher priority

Quote
Your organization may not have committed mass murder, but it's leader's tendency toward contempt and hate for those he doesn't like and doesn't understand is a pretty close second.

I suspected that you probably had something against yourself. How's that working for you?

Holding grudges can be fun, but doing so seldom leads to what you state you want. Rather, holding grudges usually leads to bitterness, annoyances, closed-mindedness, and general pain-in-the-butt behavior. Quite a distance from all that peace and compassion you say you want. That eventuality seems quite evident in your posts.

Interesting to know what a word means and then use it with your own made up meaning. I suspect that doesn't really help dialogue to any extent.

You do realize that your grudges are leaking out.


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HRoberson
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« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2009, 11:09:45 AM »

Quote
Well now, we're getting somewhere.

It is quite convenient to lump everyone I don't like into one group. No need for all that messy teasing apart what any one of them might or might not be guilty of. Just decide you don't like Asians and shoot them all - after all, they must be guilty of something. Just as a pointer: Muslims aren't Christians even if they do respect the Bible as Holy. Convenient lumping of people together if you ask me. Since it isn't just faith holders that have slaughtered others, why not just lump all humans together and hate yourself?

Your grudge appears to have moved from one against God, to those who claim to follow Him. I have no intention of defending what any individual or even every Christian organization might do. The faith is held by fallible humans who do stupid things. That in itself does not invalidate the faith itself.
I understand Christianity and religion in general.
My mind is open to anything that has not proven to be murderous. Religion and especially Christianity deservers no say in its defense. I have given more than a fair chance and has proven to be worthless.
Also how I word myself through the internet and how I word myself in reality has little to do with each other. My grudges are leaking out because I let myself be candid.

My grudge is against God and the people who chose to follow Him. Also, lumping together Judaism, Muslims, and Christians is not too far fetch because each has the same God just a different view on him.
Christianity is just Judaism + Jesus and Muslims are Judaism + Mohammed.
Also race has little to do with why people make a choice, Religion does. Religion on its own needs elimination. The one’s I have picked a bone on are the one’s that are a higher priority

Quote
Your organization may not have committed mass murder, but it's leader's tendency toward contempt and hate for those he doesn't like and doesn't understand is a pretty close second.

I suspected that you probably had something against yourself. How's that working for you?

Holding grudges can be fun, but doing so seldom leads to what you state you want. Rather, holding grudges usually leads to bitterness, annoyances, closed-mindedness, and general pain-in-the-butt behavior. Quite a distance from all that peace and compassion you say you want. That eventuality seems quite evident in your posts.

Interesting to know what a word means and then use it with your own made up meaning. I suspect that doesn't really help dialogue to any extent.

You do realize that your grudges are leaking out.
Unfortunately, you have proven that you understand neither Christianity or religion in general.

What you have done is display a keen sense of arrogance and bigotry which you say you are fighting against.

You seem to be considerably conflicted and angry.
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HRoberson, MC, MS, LMFT
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I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was going to blame you.

...to love mercy, act justly, and walk humbly with God

Sometimes you just have to let it go.

http://www.robersonblog.blogspot.com
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« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2009, 11:09:45 AM »

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« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2009, 07:09:13 PM »

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Well now, we're getting somewhere.

It is quite convenient to lump everyone I don't like into one group. No need for all that messy teasing apart what any one of them might or might not be guilty of. Just decide you don't like Asians and shoot them all - after all, they must be guilty of something. Just as a pointer: Muslims aren't Christians even if they do respect the Bible as Holy. Convenient lumping of people together if you ask me. Since it isn't just faith holders that have slaughtered others, why not just lump all humans together and hate yourself?

Your grudge appears to have moved from one against God, to those who claim to follow Him. I have no intention of defending what any individual or even every Christian organization might do. The faith is held by fallible humans who do stupid things. That in itself does not invalidate the faith itself.
I understand Christianity and religion in general.
My mind is open to anything that has not proven to be murderous. Religion and especially Christianity deservers no say in its defense. I have given more than a fair chance and has proven to be worthless.
Also how I word myself through the internet and how I word myself in reality has little to do with each other. My grudges are leaking out because I let myself be candid.

My grudge is against God and the people who chose to follow Him. Also, lumping together Judaism, Muslims, and Christians is not too far fetch because each has the same God just a different view on him.
Christianity is just Judaism + Jesus and Muslims are Judaism + Mohammed.
Also race has little to do with why people make a choice, Religion does. Religion on its own needs elimination. The one’s I have picked a bone on are the one’s that are a higher priority

Quote
Your organization may not have committed mass murder, but it's leader's tendency toward contempt and hate for those he doesn't like and doesn't understand is a pretty close second.

I suspected that you probably had something against yourself. How's that working for you?

Holding grudges can be fun, but doing so seldom leads to what you state you want. Rather, holding grudges usually leads to bitterness, annoyances, closed-mindedness, and general pain-in-the-butt behavior. Quite a distance from all that peace and compassion you say you want. That eventuality seems quite evident in your posts.

Interesting to know what a word means and then use it with your own made up meaning. I suspect that doesn't really help dialogue to any extent.

You do realize that your grudges are leaking out.
Unfortunately, you have proven that you understand neither Christianity or religion in general.

What you have done is display a keen sense of arrogance and bigotry which you say you are fighting against.

You seem to be considerably conflicted and angry.
Tell me, how would word your statements on thoughts on Hitler and the Nazi party, how would you conceive your opinion on a mass serial killer?
If you put my statements in the context of how I view it. It is not arrogance or bigotry, but simple human natural tendency to hate what is considered evil by them.

If you have a keen understanding of the bible, then tell me, does it ever once in genesis, say that the serpent is the devil?
After you look, the simple answer is, no it does not. Its really just a talking snake as far as the context goes.

To put in simpler terms, Because of Jericho and many other atrocities by religion and not just Christianity, by almost every single major religion has committed wrong as a whole. The ignorance and bigotry the arises believe in a God and that you are doing what God tells and teaches you. The whole of Religion needs to be abolished.

No matter how much say, the simple fact remains that you are defending ideals that has caused strife. You by simple being Christian or associated with any religion, makes you a proponent of war and death.
Humanity needs to remove the bonds of religion by whatever mean possible.
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« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2009, 08:32:22 PM »

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Well now, we're getting somewhere.

It is quite convenient to lump everyone I don't like into one group. No need for all that messy teasing apart what any one of them might or might not be guilty of. Just decide you don't like Asians and shoot them all - after all, they must be guilty of something. Just as a pointer: Muslims aren't Christians even if they do respect the Bible as Holy. Convenient lumping of people together if you ask me. Since it isn't just faith holders that have slaughtered others, why not just lump all humans together and hate yourself?

Your grudge appears to have moved from one against God, to those who claim to follow Him. I have no intention of defending what any individual or even every Christian organization might do. The faith is held by fallible humans who do stupid things. That in itself does not invalidate the faith itself.
I understand Christianity and religion in general.
My mind is open to anything that has not proven to be murderous. Religion and especially Christianity deservers no say in its defense. I have given more than a fair chance and has proven to be worthless.
Also how I word myself through the internet and how I word myself in reality has little to do with each other. My grudges are leaking out because I let myself be candid.

My grudge is against God and the people who chose to follow Him. Also, lumping together Judaism, Muslims, and Christians is not too far fetch because each has the same God just a different view on him.
Christianity is just Judaism + Jesus and Muslims are Judaism + Mohammed.
Also race has little to do with why people make a choice, Religion does. Religion on its own needs elimination. The one’s I have picked a bone on are the one’s that are a higher priority

Quote
Your organization may not have committed mass murder, but it's leader's tendency toward contempt and hate for those he doesn't like and doesn't understand is a pretty close second.

I suspected that you probably had something against yourself. How's that working for you?

Holding grudges can be fun, but doing so seldom leads to what you state you want. Rather, holding grudges usually leads to bitterness, annoyances, closed-mindedness, and general pain-in-the-butt behavior. Quite a distance from all that peace and compassion you say you want. That eventuality seems quite evident in your posts.

Interesting to know what a word means and then use it with your own made up meaning. I suspect that doesn't really help dialogue to any extent.

You do realize that your grudges are leaking out.
Unfortunately, you have proven that you understand neither Christianity or religion in general.

What you have done is display a keen sense of arrogance and bigotry which you say you are fighting against.

You seem to be considerably conflicted and angry.
Tell me, how would word your statements on thoughts on Hitler and the Nazi party, how would you conceive your opinion on a mass serial killer?
If you put my statements in the context of how I view it. It is not arrogance or bigotry, but simple human natural tendency to hate what is considered evil by them.

If you have a keen understanding of the bible, then tell me, does it ever once in genesis, say that the serpent is the devil?
After you look, the simple answer is, no it does not. Its really just a talking snake as far as the context goes.

To put in simpler terms, Because of Jericho and many other atrocities by religion and not just Christianity, by almost every single major religion has committed wrong as a whole. The ignorance and bigotry the arises believe in a God and that you are doing what God tells and teaches you. The whole of Religion needs to be abolished.

No matter how much say, the simple fact remains that you are defending ideals that has caused strife. You by simple being Christian or associated with any religion, makes you a proponent of war and death.
Humanity needs to remove the bonds of religion by whatever mean possible.
You are blind, and considerably inconsistent.

To use your logic, you should want to destroy the US, Germany, Spain, India, Turkey, Russia, Greece, Bosnia, Serbia, ....... pick your favorite country. They all have war, hate, and murder in their histories.

Since it seems to be human problem, shouldn't you simply hate humans? And wolves, and eagles, and dachshunds?

What exactly does that leave you with?

Dying a bitter old man probably.

But you go ahead and continue this tilting at windmills you seem to enjoy.
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HRoberson, MC, MS, LMFT
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aC, LP, MC, BfS, Coop, SS, nKJV, EoG

I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was going to blame you.

...to love mercy, act justly, and walk humbly with God

Sometimes you just have to let it go.

http://www.robersonblog.blogspot.com
farouk
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« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2009, 09:04:43 PM »

"He that cometh to God, must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him."

(Hebrews 11)

It is a waste of time arguing in circles, otherwise.
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John 3.16 contains great theology, without doubt.

Read God's Word prayerfully every day; it's a joy and privilege.

If folks feel they must have TATTOOS, have you considered having faith related designs tattooed?

(And try vacationing in the South: plenty of sun, and some great churches down there!)
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« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2009, 10:22:18 AM »

This is a simple philosophy of why I don’t follow the Christian God, and I would like to see what you defense / explanation of why my points are not valid or are valid.

1.   Joshua 6:21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.  Now the reason I don’t like this passage during the exodus into Canaan, is because this event is equivalent to genocide, and because their merciless killing of children in Jericho.
God, being ALL-KNOWING knew their future.

When God destroys things HE does it in mercy to themselves and others around them.

God knew that the city was evil...evil which ONLY brings about pain and suffering.

To spare them further pain and siffering, which would have gone on for a long time.....HE ended their misery.

Quote
2.   Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I come not to send peace, but a sword.    Now at one time I might have liked that, but since I don’t think war or violence has a place in the world this obviously promoting of conflict doesn’t sit well with me. What I got from it is: Christians don’t promote peace if their leader said these words.
Psalms  119:165   Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.  
  
IF...God's Laws are obeyed.....there would be peace of mind and body.

There would be no stealing...no lying....etc.......etc.. ..

Evil people don't like the restrictions on their stealing or lying....etc...in order to get ahead in this world.
AND, they resent anyone who gets in the way to getting what they want.

Christians uphold God's Laws.....and, evil does not like their guilty practices exposed.


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1 Peter  4:17   For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God ? 

God's 'Investigative' Judgment Day
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« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2009, 10:22:18 AM »

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« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2010, 10:01:42 PM »

Men promoting control over others have always used religion as a means to an end. They need some sort of justification for their otherwise non-religious actions.
But what your Bible verse 2 is talking about is not violence but a division from those who will hold to traditional religion. It is usually traditionalists that promote violence. Jesus did not come to judge sinners, he came to judge the righteous. But Christians do not begrudge being chosen. It is an honor. Many are called, but few are chosen. He also said that the student is not greater than the master. If they hated him they will surely hate you. He did not come to unite the world, but to separate the chaff from the grain.
Violence between men always occurs when they argue about what they consider to be manner of perfection of good works. But Christianity teaches you can't be justified by good works, only by faith. God loved Abraham for his faith, not for his good works. He was given God's promise for his faith. Jesus came to give hope to those who keep their faith, not those who promote violence.
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...And they began to say, each one to another; Come on! Let us make bricks and bake them with a burning process. So brick served as stone for them, but bitumen served as mortar for them. They now said; Come on! Let us build ourselves a city and also a tower with it's top in the heavens, and let us make a celebrated name for ourselves, for fear we may be scattered over all the surface of the earth. Genesis 11:3-4

Woe to the one that is making evil gain for his house, in order to set his nest on the height, so as to be delivered from the grasp of what is calamitous! Habakkuk 2:9
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« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2010, 11:16:53 PM »

If there's no God, what's wrong with mass murder or anything else?
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taller, better looking and smarter . . .

They turned me loose from the nervous hospital.  Said I was well.  Mmm hmm.

Suffering for your beliefs is called faithfulness, making others suffer for your beliefs is called being a jerk.

His cross, like the ark in the wilderness, is the center around which his people are to encamp; so that they cannot separate into factions, or withdraw from each other, without retiring at the same time from the presence of the cross.
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« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2010, 04:37:02 PM »

But Christianity teaches you can't be justified by good works, only by faith. God loved Abraham for his faith, not for his good works.
James 2: 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
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1 Peter  4:17   For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God ? 

God's 'Investigative' Judgment Day
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« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2010, 04:37:02 PM »

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Elaine
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« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2010, 05:07:32 PM »

If there's no God, what's wrong with mass murder or anything else?

Well, as any person with many atheists and agnostics in their lifes will tell you - atheists are usually far more ethical and moral than most Christians.
I never go to a business with a little fishy on their ads.
I sit back and watch my friends get cheated. They never listen to me.

Hey, sorry, but most Christians I deal with in business are creeps.

An atheist only fools themselves. I like it that way.

(Of course, I and all of you are the exceptons.)
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« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2010, 06:39:43 PM »

If there's no God, what's wrong with mass murder or anything else?

Well, as any person with many atheists and agnostics in their lifes will tell you - atheists are usually far more ethical and moral than most Christians.

Yes BUT, who's morals and ethics ?

Not God's.

And since there are ONLY 2 players....satan and God.......makes you kind of wonder, doesn't it ?
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1 Peter  4:17   For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God ? 

God's 'Investigative' Judgment Day
The results of my bible reading - Pages: 1 [2] 3 Go Up Print 
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