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Author Topic: "I'm personally against abortion, but..."  (Read 2400 times)
Tantor
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« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2008, 03:17:20 PM »
I say 2 things in regards to abortion.

1.) We can't even keep our own house in order.. what gives us the right to try and remove the speck from our brothers eye.

2.) The more we try and impose God's law on non-christians the more they will resist and the more of a pummeling we will take.

Do I think abortion is wrong.. absolutely.  Do I think our secular society will ever feel the same way.. nope.

So in the mean time we work through churches and charities to reduce the number of abortions as hard as we possibly can and reach out to these women, christian or not.

But from a societal point of view, if I were in the Government, I would allow one abortion and the next time that same woman came in for an abortion, getting her tubes tied would be part of the procedure.

Abortion is expensive.. way more expensive then a 25 cent condom.. and this government must start requiring people to be responsible for their actions.  It's the same with welfare.. if a woman is on welfare, when she picks up her welfare check she also gets a norplant shot..

But ultimately my dream would be for the church to finally reach and convert enough people in this country so that we can petition our congress to put abortion as a constitutional ammendment and we all vote on it and pass it.. its the only way to defeat this run away court system.  Once we ammend the constitution they cant over-ride it.
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« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2008, 03:21:03 PM »
Quote from: don has a plan on January 17, 2008, 02:45:04 PM
No.

But you do with abortion?
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« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2008, 03:21:03 PM »
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don has a plan
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« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2008, 03:21:28 PM »
No.
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« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2008, 04:14:07 PM »
Quote from: don has a plan on January 17, 2008, 03:21:28 PM
No.

Then it sounds like you contradict what you said here: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=23680.msg454234#msg454234

You defended the original quote that started this thread that said, "I'm personally against abortion,  I support a woman's right to have one."

After people said that it was a contradiction and a terrible philosophy, you said:

Quote
Actually, there's no contradiction in the logic whatsoever.  You may not like the stance and may find it disagreeable, but there's nothing inherently contradictory about it.

I'm personally opposed to hunting.  I find it morally repugnant.  Thus I don't hunt.  Yet, I support others' right to hunt.

I'm personally opposed to drinking liquor.  I find it morally repugnant.  Thus I don't drink.  Yet, I support others' right to drink.

There's nothing wrong with the logic. There might be something wrong with the outcome though.

You used those statements (about hunting and liquor) as parallel statements saying why you thought it was fine logic to be opposed to abortion but support someone's right to have one.

I understand if you are merely arguing the logic of the original quote, but if you were, why give the hunting and drinking comparison as those things are not killing human life? I'm confused.
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« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2008, 04:14:07 PM »
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« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2008, 07:16:45 PM »
Quote from: don has a plan on January 17, 2008, 02:10:41 PM
Quote from: Dave... on January 17, 2008, 01:41:31 PM
Don, I have nothing against using sound logic. But if it's false logic, then it needs to be exposed.

My question for you is this...

Since you seemed to imply that your morals use mans law as a standard.

If slavery were legal today, would you support it, even if you personally would not take part in it yourself?



I don't use laws to determine morality.  I simply pointed out that abortion is not comparable to child molestation because one has been deemed legal, and the other has not.

I do not support abortion, death penalty, war, child abuse, spousal abuse, or any other form of physical violence.

(I did not at any point in any of my posts prior to this one give any indication of my feelings about abortion.  I was simply arguing about the logical ends of the initial post.)

P.S. -- To answer the other questions -- Of course, I think rape and slavery are horrid things.  I would never support either under circumstance, legal or not, just as I don't support abortion.

OK, but i'm sure that you could appreciate where I was headed with my question and the "logic" behind it.

My point in asking the slavery question is to make the person who hangs his hat on the "abortion is law" argument for supporting it, aware of the fact that they have a higher moral standard than the law. You can pretty much guess where I was going from there.

Dave
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« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2008, 07:20:25 PM »
Quote from: phoebe on January 17, 2008, 02:25:36 PM
Quote from: Dave... on January 17, 2008, 01:51:04 PM
Quote
Being pro-choice is a constitutional issue.

I disagree, it's not in the constitution.

http://www.rightgrrl.com/carolyn/roe.html

That's why legally it belongs on the state level.

It is because it is my constitutional right to make choices for myself, choices for which I am accountable and responsible, both good and bad that puts it in the category of "constitutional". It's called "the pursuit of..." The freedom to choose, the freedom not to be told what I may or may not do with my own body. We should never give up this freedom. I won't be told by any government whether or not I must abort or must give birth. That is a decision I make between me and my God, not between me and some government. Roe v. Wade should never have happened. It was not a federal issue, and no dollars should have exchanged hands for one.

And states need to grow up and be parents of their own children instead of looking to Big Daddy Fed to fix everything for them. Geesh. How dysfunctional can a government be.

phoebe, does a woman have a right to be born?
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« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2008, 07:20:25 PM »
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« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2008, 07:35:02 PM »
Abortion is wrong       fullstop 

It doesn't just affect  one live   The unborn who never had a chance to have a voice the mum/dad and also family

It also affects God    I formed you in your womb

Also he has plans for our lives    How do you think it makes him feel.

He knew us before the foundation of the earth

I  know of a close friend who is a midwife(Christian)and has said that in the late stages they have to chop the baby up to help get it out.

End of the Day this world is so screwed up

Political correctness gone way overtop.Everyone has a right

Its not there fault they did the crime ,they had a bad childhood

Looking forward to the next one.
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« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2008, 07:54:47 PM »
The way I look at abortion is plain and simple an end of a life.....murder.

The way I believe God sees it is the same way He viewed His people who stood by and watched as babies were burned in hot coals for those who "sacrificed" them to their god, Baal, so as to become a more rich people. Most today are killing their babies through abortion, for convenience, a way to gain more. Maybe by way of getting to finish school, to have more of what they want, since babies are too expensive, or maybe a way to pretend that it never was there to begin with.

Abortion sickens me. I imagine that is the Holy Spirit in me that is what speaks to me in that way. After all, the human side is what promotes it in the first place.

God sent prophets to warn the Israelites to stop in their Baal worship, I imagine He won't allow this to continue in much the same way He did in times past if we as Christians just continue to sit back and allow it to go on all around us.
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« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2008, 08:45:29 PM »
Well said Memmy!
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« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2008, 09:00:55 PM »
Like many things, it's hard to stay black and white on this issue.

If I had a 12 year old daughter, and she were raped, and became pregnant by that rape, I would have a really, really, difficult time not having that baby removed from her womb. It would be physically and psychologically damaging - in a permanent way - to force her to bear this child. If one decided to force her to carry this baby to full term, if she survives the delivery, one has to decide if it should be given up for adoption, or kept and raised. There would never be a father in the picture, and this child still needs her own father.

If it's murder for all abortions, it is also murder in this situation.

No, I cannot always say abortion is 100% wrong. Just can't.
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« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2008, 09:00:55 PM »
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« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2008, 09:06:54 PM »
I think it is wonderful that you feel that way about your daughter Phoebe. I would feel that way about any who that would happen to. Rape is a horrible act of violence and I really don't believe that the majority of abortions are used in rape cases. A murder of an unborn child is also an act of violence, on that baby inside her or his Momma's womb. The second act of violence doesn't over rule the first, just creates a second one. Besides, many if not all who have abortions feel incredibly sad afterwards, if not for the rest of their lives. I know several who had them in years past. "It" never goes away.

But to me:

The problem is........who speaks for the daughter inside the Mommy?

I want to help give that baby girl (or boy) a voice.
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Come near to God and He will come near to you. James 4:8

For I can do everything with the help of Christ who gives me the strength I need. Philippians 4:13
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« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2008, 09:08:33 PM »
Quote from: Dave... on January 17, 2008, 07:20:25 PM
Quote from: phoebe on January 17, 2008, 02:25:36 PM
Quote from: Dave... on January 17, 2008, 01:51:04 PM
Quote
Being pro-choice is a constitutional issue.

I disagree, it's not in the constitution.

http://www.rightgrrl.com/carolyn/roe.html

That's why legally it belongs on the state level.

It is because it is my constitutional right to make choices for myself, choices for which I am accountable and responsible, both good and bad that puts it in the category of "constitutional". It's called "the pursuit of..." The freedom to choose, the freedom not to be told what I may or may not do with my own body. We should never give up this freedom. I won't be told by any government whether or not I must abort or must give birth. That is a decision I make between me and my God, not between me and some government. Roe v. Wade should never have happened. It was not a federal issue, and no dollars should have exchanged hands for one.

And states need to grow up and be parents of their own children instead of looking to Big Daddy Fed to fix everything for them. Geesh. How dysfunctional can a government be.

phoebe, does a woman have a right to be born?

 Scratching head....a little confused. What does being a woman have to do with it? Why didn't you ask if anyone had a right to be born? What kind of right are you talking about? Spiritual? Moral? Governmental?

Seems a silly question to me.
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« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2008, 09:09:58 PM »
Quote from: memmy on January 17, 2008, 09:06:54 PM
I think it is wonderful that you feel that way about your daughter Phoebe. I would feel that way about any who that would happen to.

The problem is........who speaks for the daughter inside the Mommy?

I want to help give that baby girl (or boy) a voice.

While you're fighting for a voice that doesn't yet exist, I will be fighting for the right to care for my hold-in-my-arms-daughter in the best way possible. I will not sacrifice her for a crime.
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« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2008, 09:09:58 PM »
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« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2008, 09:21:00 PM »
This world sucks

Revelation 21
All Things Made New
 1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John,[a] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It is done![c] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,[d] and I will be his God and he shall be My son
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« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2008, 09:27:25 PM »
Phoebe, I am torn on the rape and incest thing as a lot of people are, but if those situations were not in play,and it was just an inconvenient pregnancy, do you view any abortion as murder? I am not trying to be combative, because I respect your views here on the board.
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