GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | RSS | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: America and modern Christian persecution  (Read 7914 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jprg

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 55
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
America and modern Christian persecution
« on: Sun Feb 12, 2012 - 20:06:05 »
So, I just wanted to say a few words about America’s recent track record concerning the conditions that our Christian brothers and sisters around the world are in right now.

Let’s start with our involvement into the Kosovo affair. We bombed the Kosovo Christians into submitting their ancestral Christian lands to the mohammed come lately Albanian muslims. Our weaponry has prevailed. By all appearances, the Kosovo is now a muslim land. We, the Americans, have to owe up to it.  Like it or not, this is our doing.
Pouring over the most recent Kosovo news, the best role we, the American Christians, can aspire to in Kosovo, is kidnapping the Kosovo Christians and send them to the operating rooms, where their organs are harvested against their will and sold on the European/Chinese markets, of which there is plenty of evidence.

Let’s move forward a few years to our misguided and much lied about Irag occupation.
Until recently, under Saddam Hussein, the religious minorities, including the Iraqi Christians, were fairly well protected from the religious terrorism done by the muslims, because of the secular nature of the Iraqi government. As if on (the anti-Christian) cue, the US military forces went in and destroyed that VERY delicate military/political balance in the land, resulting in the MANY thousands of Christians murdered and many more fleeing the country due to the violence that followed. Indeed, the violence was VERY easy to predict and was a no-brainer. We, the US Christians, continued to support our war machine throughout and cheer them on.

Not very different scenarios have happened in Egypt in Libya.
While we didn’t have the boots on the ground in those lands, like we did in Iraq, we certainly have been the deciding factor in the demise of the local Christian populations and evangelism there as result of our actions. Now the Muslims rule the day in those lands and are free to kill Christians with impunity, and we are largely responsible for that fact.

Now, if the same anti-Christian forces continue to dominate the US government, our Syrian Christian brothers and sisters will follow the same path as those we betrayed a short while earlier.

So, as we seat our wide behinds in our Sunday pews this morning, I want us to meditate on the fact that many many many Christians around the world have been murdered by/ with the help of our anti-Christian government and the US Christains apathy/involvement.

What is America’s standing the eyes of the Lord right now? Can we still chant ‘God Bless America’ and hope that He will still listen? Or do we have Christian blood on our hands and no immediate fellowship with God, until we repent of our evil deeds?
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 13, 2012 - 17:22:03 by jprg »

Christian Forums and Message Board

America and modern Christian persecution
« on: Sun Feb 12, 2012 - 20:06:05 »

p.rehbein

  • Guest
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #1 on: Sun Feb 12, 2012 - 20:44:18 »
Hey jprg, welcome to Grace Centered.

Please visit our "Introductions" Forum and give a shout-out to all.............!  ::tippinghat::


In the meantime, I figure one of our Mods will pass by this thread and move it to the Christian Politics Forum, simply because it seems to me that it would be better suited there.  So don't be suprised if you find it has been moved.
=================================================================

Now, as for the comments in your post, without doing some 'serious" research to assure that you have all your facts correctly stated, it would be hard to address the many issues you raised.

One point I would ask you to consider is that God's love and concern is for His people, not a Nation.  (paraphrased) He said "If you will repent and turn from your evil ways (speaking to His people), I will heal your Nation.

See, God's eyes are on us, His people.  He is concerned with our obedience to Him...............

just a thought=

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #1 on: Sun Feb 12, 2012 - 20:44:18 »

Offline jprg

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 55
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #2 on: Sun Feb 12, 2012 - 21:05:24 »
Hi,

Thanks for the welcome.

I with this post could be moved into a 'Persecution' forum, rather than politics. Politics don't interest me very much.

It's because too many American Christians are defined by land/politics identity, rather than faith identity, that we have these problems in the first place. And Christians keep dying...

Offline jprg

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 55
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #3 on: Sat Mar 10, 2012 - 19:37:32 »
Reports are coming in of the new criminal Lybian government we installed that tortures its own citizens. Job well done?
Meanwhile, the Syrian jihadists use local populations as a human shield for their rat warfare, and we applaud and arm them. Job well done?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #3 on: Sat Mar 10, 2012 - 19:37:32 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

p.rehbein

  • Guest
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #4 on: Sun Mar 11, 2012 - 06:38:11 »
 ::pondering::, odd that none of this was reported on the National news...........do you have documented evidence of these events you speak of?

I checked in our News Forum (the guy who keeps it updated is really good at doing so), and I can't find any related news events posted there..............


Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #4 on: Sun Mar 11, 2012 - 06:38:11 »



Offline Johnb

  • Global Moderator
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11592
  • Manna: 167
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #5 on: Sun Mar 11, 2012 - 08:22:08 »
I believe every Arab nation that is throwing out a dictator will be replaced by a theocracy and a religious dictator.   

Offline jprg

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 55
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #6 on: Wed Mar 28, 2012 - 00:22:35 »
@p.rehbein
Your "national news" are custom written and compiled to make you feel good about your genocidal policies around the globe. I wouldn't give much credence to that.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/03/us-libya-torture-idUSTRE8120N920120203
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/9042501/MSF-withdraws-staff-over-Libya-torture-cases.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/27/world/africa/groups-denounce-widespread-use-of-torture-in-libya.html?pagewanted=all
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-16771372

There is plenty more. Just pull your head out of the sand and read some actual news. You may actually start making sense.

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • The Force
  • *****
  • Posts: 30631
  • Manna: 627
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #7 on: Wed Mar 28, 2012 - 09:35:22 »
I believe every Arab nation that is throwing out a dictator will be replaced by a theocracy and a religious dictator.   

Yes, and some secular Muslim countries like Turkey are beginning to morph into theocracies and ultimately religious dictatorships. Egypt is well on its way.


Offline stevehut

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3769
  • Manna: 70
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #9 on: Fri Apr 13, 2012 - 17:26:32 »
Ugh.

It always dismays me when I hear people who already live in the freest country in the history of the planet, complain that they're not free enough.

Give me a break.

Offline jprg

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 55
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #10 on: Fri Apr 13, 2012 - 17:37:46 »
The "freest country" is your imagination.
This country is increasingly oppressive, and not the freest by any means.
Give me a break.

Those who want to lobby for the Serb Christian organ capture would find this country one of the freest.
Unfortunately for you, God is watching.
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 13, 2012 - 18:13:02 by jprg »

Offline stevehut

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3769
  • Manna: 70
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #11 on: Sat Apr 14, 2012 - 01:03:04 »
jprg, can you name a country that offers greater religious freedom than USA? ???

Offline jprg

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 55
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #12 on: Sat Apr 14, 2012 - 09:12:51 »
Germany, Brazil, Canada, Portugal. The list goes on.
But this is really off topic.
The topic of this post is how do we influence the lives of Christians around the world who are in more vulnerable positions than we are. And we have caused lots of Christians lots of grief and even had them killed.

Offline stevehut

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3769
  • Manna: 70
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #13 on: Sat Apr 14, 2012 - 22:50:26 »
jprg, I'm intrigued.  Tell me more, about how those countries offer more freedom to believers.

Offline fcadcock

  • Loving
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 788
  • Manna: 26
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #14 on: Sun Apr 15, 2012 - 00:57:42 »
Wow...  I don't even know where to begin with this one.  I mean, saying that we took the wrong side in Kosovo simply because one side claimed to be of the same faith as us?  Really?  So all the ethnic cleansing (genocide), rape, and torture that went on at the hands of the "christians" is ok?  We may have sided against Christians, but we most absolutely took the right side.  We chose the side of peace.

Iraq is a different story. Mistakes were made. But removing Saddam from power before he could use the weapons he was actively claiming to have wasn't one of them.  Yeah, Christians died. Yeah, they fled. But the only thing that was different than before was that they were free to leave.  Under Saddam's rule they were a highly repressed minority who were subject to torture, rape, and death simply for practicing their religion in the open.  At least now they have the chance for peace.  Same with the Kurds in the north and the other religious minorities Saddam used for target practice every few years.  Iraq may not be as safe now, but the world in general is much safer without him in command of an army. 

Egypt and Libya? How are either of those things our fault?  We didn't start, nor did we participate in Egypt's overthrow. And yeah, it has turned into a problem with the Muslim Brotherhood taking majorities in many of the elections, but that's a problem that the people of Egypt freely chose of their own accord.  As far as Libya goes, you should probably be banned for trolling if you're suggesting that Kadaffi shouldn't have been overthrown.  The man was having his army blindly fire artillery into occupied towns.  He was open about sponsoring terrorism. He needed to go.  And yet again, we're allowing the citizens who fought to overthrow him decide the future of their country.  It is not our place to decide for them just as it is not their place to choose who our leaders are or what laws we live by.

"Syrian jihadists use local populations as a human shield for their rat warfare, and we applaud and arm them" 

Ahh, now I get it...  This was all a huge joke.  You didn't actually mean it.  I mean, how could you seriously call civilians who rick their lives to overthrow an oppressive government who again is shelling populated cities with indiscriminate artillery fire, simply for holding peaceful protests, rats and jihadists?  Do you even know what those words mean?  These people have been under the rule of one of the most corrupt governments in the world.  This is the government responsible for the Yom Kippur war, the murder of thousands of Christians in Lebanon, the VAST majority of fighters in Iraq during the Iraqi insurgency were trained, armed, and funded by these thugs, and they regularly send rockets and bombers into Israel.  We shouldn't be supporting the people who want to risk their lives to overthrow this dictatorship?

Seriously, stop listening to Rachel Maddow and MSNBC.  Read an actual history book about these areas.  They aren't these magical places that are easy to sum up in a single sound bite.  The middle east is about 50 different factions all competing for the same lands their fathers all ruled a hundred and fifty years ago, and other than Israel and maybe, MAYBE, the Kurds, they're all run by evil thugs.  Even the ones we side with.  They're just less evil than the ones we oppose.

Offline Bitter Sweet

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3262
  • Manna: 48
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #15 on: Sun Apr 15, 2012 - 04:53:42 »
Wow...  I don't even know where to begin with this one.  I mean, saying that we took the wrong side in Kosovo simply because one side claimed to be of the same faith as us?  Really?  So all the ethnic cleansing (genocide), rape, and torture that went on at the hands of the "christians" is ok?  We may have sided against Christians, but we most absolutely took the right side.  We chose the side of peace.



My husband was fighting against the mujahideen, they were funded by the Americans. As soon as 9/11 happened the war ended because the Americans stopped the funding and the Christians in the Balkans celebrated because of the trust the Americans had put in the Muslims. They have a history for making Christians their slaves after taking the land.

I hope there isn't another war there, my husband will go and fight again. But his passport expired and now he wants an American citizenship to get another passport to go back just in case of war. He is in the special forces, The Lions. ::prayinghard::

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/who-wants-war-in-macedonia

[youtube]mJigN2i64P8[/youtube]
« Last Edit: Sun Apr 15, 2012 - 05:16:26 by Bitter Sweet »

Offline jprg

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 55
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #16 on: Sun Apr 15, 2012 - 08:51:40 »
fcadcock, you sound like the same tired propaganda that is all over the mass media. It has no truth to it.

The Christians in Kosovo had it done to them just as much if not more than the other way around. But we hardly hear about it. Why is that? Someone has an agenda? Christians have been brutalized by Muslims for centuries in that part of the world.

It is very easy to sit in a well sheltered country and theorize that Christians elsewhere are free to leave or free to get killed or free to have their organs stolen or free to give up their land or free to be turned into slaves. Doesn't sound like much of a freedom to me. In reality, Christianity is being wiped out in the Middle East. And we are largely to blame.

In the Middle East, those "freedom fighters" you speak of are merely CIA funded islamist thugs that are ten times worse than the oppressive governments they aim to replace. So it logically followed that the plight of the Christians got ten times worse. It was the only possible outcome.
Many of these "uprisings" would have never happened were it not for our instigation or open interference/occupation, because our empire feels the need to gain new geopolitical footholds with complete disregard for local populations.

"Syrian jihadists use local populations as a human shield for their rat warfare, and we applaud and arm them."  This is precisely what is going on. The terrorists take over urban neighborhoods and hide behind the civilian population. BTW, lots of those terrorists are foreign jihadist fighters that come from places like Saudi Arabia.
The US government would shell our own neighborhoods in much the same way if we had foreign armed terrorists occupy whole city blocks and attack the police and others. Don't kid yourself. "Peaceful protestors" is a manufactured lie. This is not what is actually happening.

NATO air strikes have likely killed more Libyan civilians than did the Gaddafi forces. And then there are all those deaths at the hands of the islamist terrorists, codename "peaceful protestors". So the notion that we were there for humanitarian purposes does not hold water. Regime change at any cost is the name of the game. Locals don’t matter.

If we know full well that one oppressive government will be replaced with a worse one, how is it caring for the locals or spreading freedom? If Saddam killed a few thousand of his own people, but there are over 1 million Iraqis killed as the result of our occupation, how was this better for the Iraqis? And the killings will still go on for quite some time.

Turn off FAUX television and maybe you will begin seeing things for what they are, instead of repeating the same old falsehood. The situation on the ground does not support your claims that things are changing for the better in that region, but just the opposite is true.

« Last Edit: Sun Apr 15, 2012 - 21:25:56 by jprg »


Offline fcadcock

  • Loving
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 788
  • Manna: 26
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #18 on: Mon Apr 16, 2012 - 02:04:29 »
fcadcock, you sound like the same tired propaganda that is all over the mass media. It has no truth to it.

Turn off FAUX television and maybe you will begin seeing things for what they are, instead of repeating the same old falsehood. The situation on the ground does not support your claims that things are changing for the better in that region, but just the opposite is true.

I don't need Fox news.  I spent the better part of the last decade on the ground in the middle east.  First with the Army, and then with the defense department investigating terrorist bomb-makers.  You speak of the "situation on the ground" through third and fourth party news services.  I left my own blood on the very ground you're reading about on numerous occasions.  When you read about a bombing or terrorist camp uncovered in that part of the world, chances are either I or one of my close friends was there at some point.

The honest truth is that the vast majority of the people in the middle east are great people.  They don't want violence in their streets or any others.  But they don't like Americans showing up in their neighborhoods because violence follows us like seagulls follow ships.  They want us to come home and stop sticking our fingers in their business.  For the most part, I have to agree.  Except in situations like Iran who is looking into building nuclear weapons, we should try to keep out of their business and stop telling them what they should do unless they ask for it.  How would you like China telling us that unless we allowed homosexual marriage and adopted a 1 child policy they would call up our debt and stop buying new debt.  It would cause a war.  We have done the exact same thing to the muslim countries since the end of WW1 when we demolished the ottoman empire and created them as separate nations.

The story of what's going on over there isn't some 2 second sound bite or photograph.  It's been going on for hundreds of years and is extremely complex.  Some of the people I met there told stories of the cruisades as if they had happened just a generation or two ago. These people have a long memory and we will be paying for the things we have done for a very long time.  Truth be told, Unless Israel starts lobbing nukes or moabs into every major city in the region soon, they're as good as gone already.  The only difference between their fate and ours is an ocean.

JP, I'm done with this thread, I'm tired and need to sleep.  I hope you have a great Monday tomorrow, but please don't bother me with anything unless you're sure you know what you're talking about.  That means this conversation should be done.

Offline jprg

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 55
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #19 on: Mon Apr 16, 2012 - 12:21:44 »
fcadcock,
So it sounds like you should know more than most about what is going on in the Middle East. But it doesn't necessarily translate into empathy. It sounds like you would have to actually live in those people's shoes, you and your family, stripped of any protection provided to you by the US military, to appreciate their predicament.
Maybe when your family members are raped and beheaded, just because they were Christians, and your centuries old church is blown to bits and you are driven from your home, you may begin to get an understanding. And then you will see it being done to your Christian brothers and sisters all around you on a systematic basis.

And then maybe you will realize that none of this would have happened were it not for US meddling, because the country had a stable secular government, even if it was more oppressive then you would like in a perfect world. And then you will see this pattern emerging anywhere we stage a "regime change". And that the "regime change" is the cue for the islamists to start cleansing their lands of Christians who have been there sometimes for 2000 years.

Quote
The story of what's going on over there isn't some 2 second sound bite or photograph.  It's been going on for hundreds of years and is extremely complex.
Exactly. And apparently we don't have a clue what we are doing, or don't care, or probably both. And the local Christians suffer most for our empire's doings.

One place we should have intervened and didn't was Sudan, where actual genocide of millions, including Christians, was taking place. I guess it wasn't important.

Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia are the world's most oppressive regimes right now, right after North Korea. Far worse then the places we interfered in so far. When do we plan "regime changes" there? So it is not really about democracy and freedom, is it?

fcadcock, I hope you are having a great Monday too. Don't feel the need to reply if you don't have the time.

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • The Force
  • *****
  • Posts: 30631
  • Manna: 627
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #20 on: Mon Apr 16, 2012 - 13:22:58 »
We would have absolutely no interest in Afghanistan except for the Taliban and Al Queda connection. Not to mention that our presense there gives us a presense on Iran's Eastern border, as our presense in Iraq gives us a presense on Iran's Western border. (Not an accident in my opinion). Saudi Arabia IS repressive and oppressive, but is a major supplier of oil, which is the life blood of the world. Without that, we could tell them to pound sand.By the way, the Saudi Royal family is about as scared of Iran as anyone else. And they should be.

Yes, we should have intervened in Sudan, but oil is a big player in that morass also. Our regime change ploys have been for our own protection and little to do with Democracy, though it is arguable that a Democratic freedom loving state is less likely to be problems like we have seen with the dictatorial nutcases in the world.

Offline stevehut

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3769
  • Manna: 70
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #21 on: Wed Apr 18, 2012 - 21:31:41 »
Still waiting for someone to explain to me how those other countries offer greater freedom than the USA.  ???  Anyone?

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • The Force
  • *****
  • Posts: 30631
  • Manna: 627
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #22 on: Tue May 01, 2012 - 13:30:39 »
Depends. If you compare the US to countries like Canada, Australia, UK, and many European countries, then no. Certainly however, the US has greater freedom than countries that have been crippled with war, tyrannical governments, and deep poverty.




Aside from nanny state entitlements (that they can't afford) in places like Canada, UK and many European countries, how do they have greater freedom than the USA? Will America have greater freedoms or less when we become like Greece, Italy or Spain and teeter on the cusp of bankruptcy?

Offline jprg

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 55
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #23 on: Fri May 11, 2012 - 22:48:15 »
Let's just all agree that the US is one of the more privileged countries, including when it comes to the freedom of worship.
The freest? No. But still a very comfortable place for Christians to live. Arguably, too comfortable for our own good as believers, but that is a topic for another discussion.
We do have episodes when Christianity is attacked here, but in more subtle ways, such as legislation, culture wars, etc. Obviously we don't have the genuine persecution of Christians happening in this country, like others do.

On the other hand, what is the cost of OUR lifestyle to Christians in other lands? Death, all too often, as we wreak havoc in their lands so we can control their oil wells or other resources and feel good about our own prosperity.
« Last Edit: Sun May 13, 2012 - 14:50:04 by jprg »

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • The Force
  • *****
  • Posts: 30631
  • Manna: 627
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #24 on: Mon May 14, 2012 - 13:55:29 »
Yeah, any oil man will tell you we shoulda had an energy policy in place especially from 1973 forward. We just kept kicking the can down the road.

Offline jprg

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 55
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #25 on: Thu May 17, 2012 - 22:10:24 »
Jaime, of course you are absolutely right, we should have had a much better energy policy in place for decades.
And it would have masked over the more fundamental problems for a while, and saved some REAL lives too.
But be it as it may, whatever circumstances we are in, our actions speak to our character.
More and more we look like some super rich gangster driving down the road and stopping to rob some pennies out a beggar's hat.
Considering how much better off we are then the nations we rob, it makes our behavior much more despicable.
IMHO

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • The Force
  • *****
  • Posts: 30631
  • Manna: 627
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #26 on: Fri May 18, 2012 - 10:46:01 »
Jaime, of course you are absolutely right, we should have had a much better energy policy in place for decades.
And it would have masked over the more fundamental problems for a while, and saved some REAL lives too.
But be it as it may, whatever circumstances we are in, our actions speak to our character.
More and more we look like some super rich gangster driving down the road and stopping to rob some pennies out a beggar's hat.
Considering how much better off we are then the nations we rob, it makes our behavior much more despicable.
IMHO


I don't think we look like gangsters at all. If we had taken Iraqi oil - maybe so. If we had told Japan and Germany to eat cake after WWII, maybe so, People like Imanutjob in Iran, Saddam in Iraq, etc etc are dispicable. With a proper energy policy, we could tell all the oil rich Arab nations to poind sand, provided they don't foster terrorism against us or threaten the interests of the rest of the world - being of course the free flow of oil. We would have had no interest at all in Afghanistan if not for 911. And we would not have unduly feared what Saddam might have done if not for the appalling successful mayhem of a handful of evil folks with box cutters, much less a dirty bomb or a biological weapon. Saddam wasn't involved in 911 presumably, but the POSSIBILITY of what he might do being the nutcase he was, was untenable at the time. It's like if out here in my area, if you discover a nest of rattlesnakes under your house, you DO something about it, and not wait for the inevitable. You don't hope and pray that a rattlesnake does not get inside the house and jeopardize your family. We did wait and postpone prior to 911 with the Cole incident and the 1993 WTC bombing and many other incidents thereby emboldening the rattlesnakes to do what they would inevitably do. We were not dispacable, the rattlesnakes of terrorism were.

Offline jprg

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 55
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #27 on: Fri May 18, 2012 - 13:27:04 »
No, we are much more sophisticated then taking the oil outright. We devise some half-cooked scheme, like spreading democracy, or fighting (the non-existent) terrorism, to serve as window dressing and distraction from our real goals - which is to get our hands on those resources. Like in Libya or Iraq.

I am all for fighting terrorism. You live by the sword, you die by the sword. Our involvement in Afghanistan is more justified then any other place we have been involved in recently. (Never mind that we are largely responsible for creating that rattlesnake nest in the first place, but fighting Communism was more important.)

But it is a very different picture when it comes to Iraq. Our intelligence professionals told the Bush administration in no uncertain terms that there was no evidence of WMD in Iraq or their involvement in 9/11. Administration's response? Trying to hush it, as the were doing the drum beating in the run up to the war. That fact alone is evidence that WMD was never the primary reason we went in. 'Defense' contracts and oil were.
How many Americans were killed in that debacle? How many Iraqis?

Nowhere in the Bible does it tell us to ensure the "free flow of oil".
But it tells us plenty about coveting what is not ours, but belongs to our neighbor.
Other nations decide what to do with their own oil, because it is THEIR property. We do NOT decide this. We have NO SAY in this WHATSOEVER. Expropriating it by force is exactly gangster behavior. And not very different from what commies did when they disrespected property rights, because they thought they had a superior cause.

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • The Force
  • *****
  • Posts: 30631
  • Manna: 627
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #28 on: Fri May 18, 2012 - 13:59:57 »
No, pretty much every intelligence agency in the world thought Saddam had WMD. I think he did and he moved them, likely to Syria with the Russians help, specifically following a large earthquake where Saddam hid his true intentions by the appearance of truck convoys of "flood aid" to Syria in 2002, actually weaponry. Why that is such an improbably thing to some I will never understand. All Saddam had to do was cooperate with the international inspectors and he refused. He knew the jig was up in his heart, but hoped America would knuckle under as they had before. Heck we politely left him in power in the first Gulf War, obviously surprising to him, emboldening him to be more brash.  

We have never taken anyone's oil Libya or Iraq. We haven't "expropriated" anyone's oil. American ingenuity preserved Kuwait's oil after the hundreds of fires set by Saddam. We preserved it for THEIR use. We didn't take it.

And yes, 30 years of previous administration's (beginning primarily with Carter and continuing through Clinton) failure to deal with the rattlesnake nest IS why 911 happened. The evil ones understand only power, and we exhibited weakness when flaunted.

We had nothing to fear from Saddam using WMD against us BUT, with the spectre of him giving a biological weapon or dirty bomb material to an eager terrorist group WAS most certainly a reasonable fear.

The flow of oil has been the reason for unstable world events since oil was first discovered. Ensuring the free flow of the world's lifeline most certainly prevents other motivations for war, like starvation and self preservation of folks that don't have much oil and depend on the world's supply.

There was no sinister motivation for Iraq other than a President was sworn to protect his citizenry the best way he could while face with unprecedented and totally discombulated means. We had never faced such an ominous and uncontrollable or unrespondable situation like radical Islam had presented. Especially with our open society and borders.

We do live in a global economy and society, and when there are trouble makers, the powerful good guys, (us by the way) are depended on by the rest of the world, whether right or wrong. I don't want us to be the world's policeman, but we do bear responsibility for keeping the world from descending into chaos, I believe. Just like we did in WWII. The only difference was that the people we were fighting fought under a flag with particular uniforms on. Our parents saved the world. They could have taken the selfish route and thumbed their noses, but they didn't. Our country did the right thing. As they most times do, and I am thankful for that.

We are doing and have done the right thing concerning the war on terror. I salute Obama for at least continuing the drone attacks on the terrorist and especially for taking out Bin Laden. He has also apparently seen the light on the Gitmo thing and dropped his demand to close it. We are at war and will remain at war for at least a couple of decades, I believe.
« Last Edit: Fri May 18, 2012 - 14:26:48 by Jaime »

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • The Force
  • *****
  • Posts: 30631
  • Manna: 627
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #29 on: Fri May 18, 2012 - 14:32:20 »
An interesting accumulation of quotes and facts about Iraq leading up to war.


http://www.reasons-for-war-with-iraq.info/

Offline jprg

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 55
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #30 on: Fri May 18, 2012 - 23:12:50 »
No, no one in their sound mind believed that WMD in Iraq nonsense.
"Washington D.C., August 22, 2008 - The U.S. intelligence community buckled sooner in 2002 than previously reported to Bush administration pressure for data justifying an invasion of Iraq, according to a documents posting on the Web today by National Security Archive senior fellow John Prados.
The documents suggest that the public relations push for war came before the intelligence analysis, which then conformed to public positions taken by Pentagon and White House officials."
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB254/index.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Report_on_Pre-war_Intelligence_on_Iraq
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/15/defector-admits-wmd-lies-iraq-war
http://www.globalissues.org/article/463/justifying-the-war-and-wmds
http://articles.cnn.com/2005-08-19/world/powell.un_1_colin-powell-lawrence-wilkerson-wmd-intelligence?_s=PM:WORLD

"The flow of oil has been the reason for unstable world events since oil was first discovered. Ensuring the free flow of the world's lifeline most certainly prevents other motivations for war, like starvation and self preservation of folks that don't have much oil and depend on the world's supply."
The fighting FOR oil has been one of the main killers of humanity.
There is no link between starvation and oil availability. Where starvation is an issue, those people hardly use any oil anyway but agriculture is done the old fashioned way. They are much more susceptible to the overall level of violence, such as resulting from oil or diamond or whatever wars, then the oil itself.

While I agree that oil is critical to world economies, it is our human construct. We certainly don't have any mandate from God to keep this oil based economy going at any cost, no matter what.

"We have never taken anyone's oil Libya or Iraq. We haven't "expropriated" anyone's oil."
We installed patsy governments that ensured the oil flowing no matter what, at cost. In practical terms, how is this different from 'taking' it? We get the oil all the same either way.

We were hardly the saviors of the world in WWII. While we fought on the right side, we didn't join in until the war was almost over and the outcome was determined. A wise act to propel us to world domination, to be sure, when the other sides nearly decimated themselves, but less of a beneficial act for the rest of humanity. We were selfish then as we are now.

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • The Force
  • *****
  • Posts: 30631
  • Manna: 627
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #31 on: Sat May 19, 2012 - 13:22:20 »
No the world would have been a MUCH different place had we listened to the anti-war advocates during WWII. It absolutely was NOT pretty much decided when qe got in in 1941. That is ludicrous. Britain would NEVER have aurvived without us and If Hitler was not preoccupied with us on the Western front, Hitler would have likely conquered the Russians way before being bogged down in that killer winter. Yes, America saved the world. Tough for an America hater to hear, but without doubt true. Most non-moron Europeans of that era will readily concur.

You're still wrong about the world's intelligence community's belief about Saddams WMD. Pretty much EVERYONE thought he had them. Even the anti-Bush, Bill Clintion PRIOR to BUSH. There is no need to try to rewrite history.

Plus there have been interviews since of Iraqi military officers that have given credence to the WMD that he had being transferred to Syria. My Question is why would we assume he (The Artful Dodger of the U.N. Inspectors) had not moved them? Not to mention he had AND used WMD in the 80's against Iran. And he unilaterally git rid if his trump card, while playing cat and mouse and peekaboo later with the UN? Not a chance in H E double hockey sticks. I would come nearer believing that Clinton "did not have sex with that woman."
« Last Edit: Sat May 19, 2012 - 14:20:23 by Jaime »

Offline jprg

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 55
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #32 on: Sun May 20, 2012 - 07:18:01 »
We were not a major player in WWII on the German front until June 1944 - the D-Day, or about 1 year before the war was over. The outcome was very well determined at that time. Until then our contributions were rather limited considering the scale of that war. We are in fact rewriting history by making us look more important then we actually were. This doesn't strike me as true patriotism.

As I see it, out main contribution in the war has been to prevent Communism from spreading over Europe any more than it did - an important goal, and not actually fighting Hitler. Our contributions on the Japanese front were more significant then on the German front, but of course I completely disagree with nuking their cities.

None of this is to detract from veterans' contributions, who fought bravely. We are just talking about the politics of it here.

The Bush administration systematically suppressed evidence that did not fit their ready made agenda to go to war in Iraq. There is plenty of evidence of this, so there is no need to deny it. In effect they lied to the American people.
Just because Clinton or some other politician mouthed off about WMD is no reason to go to war, but you better have hard evidence for that. Politicians tell lies all the time, even as they are today.
Hard evidence: Pakistan and North Korea possess nuclear weapons right now. It qualifies as weapons of mass destruction, wouldn't you say?

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • The Force
  • *****
  • Posts: 30631
  • Manna: 627
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #33 on: Sun May 20, 2012 - 07:36:46 »
America was fully engaged in protecting shipping lanes and they were bombing from Britain well before D-Day. Britain ould have clearly fallen if not for us, and of course D day would never have happened leaving Hitler to squash the Soviets. Not to mention our North African and Italy campaign to keep the Reich busy until D day.Yes we saved the world, with the world's help of course. Without us - Heil Hitler!

Yes Korea is a world threat and designated by Bush as part of the axis if evil which they were.  And Pakistani leadership is critical as ti their WMD stockpiles as was Iraqi leadership. Glad you see that . Pakistan is poised to be a huge threat if the radicals take over. Complicity with terrorist IS paramount.

And their IS plenty of evidence that everyone in the wirld thought Saddam had WMD, as evidenced by my first link and the many documented quotes from WAY before 911 until recently.
« Last Edit: Sun May 20, 2012 - 07:45:46 by Jaime »

Offline Johnb

  • Global Moderator
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11592
  • Manna: 167
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: America and modern Christian persecution
« Reply #34 on: Sun May 20, 2012 - 08:18:51 »
Correct Jaime and in addition without our money and material contributions Hitler would have won.  He is painted as only a mad man however with his genius of taking advantage of situation it took the whole world to defeat a nation of 50 million.  Yes we did save the world.  The thing that bothers me is the almost comical portal of the mad man may allow another Hitler to rise to power again.  He was pure evil but also  genius in his manipulation of the dark side of so many people.

 

     
anything