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Author Topic: Can Citizens be Sovereigns?  (Read 155 times)
divine_providence
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« on: October 24, 2009, 10:15:23 AM »

In all the citations that admitted that the people were sovereign, there was no cite that said citizens were sovereign.

In Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. at 509, there's a section that alludes to the collective sovereignty as synonymous with the citizenry, but that's the democratic form, not the republican form of government.

"The words “people of the United States” and “citizens” are synonymous terms, and mean the same thing. They both describe the political body who, according to our republican institutions, form the sovereignty, and who hold the power and conduct the Government through their representatives."

To the average reader, unaware of several facts, the implication is that citizens are sovereigns.

"GOVERNMENT (Republican Government)- One in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people, either directly, or through representatives chosen by the people, to whom those powers are specially delegated."
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, P. 695

"DEMOCRACY - That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy."
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, P. 432

( I omit a treatise on the use of "or" to mean "in other words" )

Democratic Form: Whole Body of Citizens (collectively) indirectly exercise sovereignty (absolute power) through their representative legislators.

Republican Form: Individual people directly exercise sovereignty.

To rebut any presumption that "citizens" are "collectively sovereign" let us remember the following facts:
1. Citizens are obligated to perform civic duties (militia, jury duty, paying taxes, etc)
2. Sovereigns are not obligated to perform civic duties.

If a citizen, obligated to serve, is a sovereign, then sovereignty has been turned upside down.

SOVEREIGN - A person, body or state in which independent and supreme authority is vested...
Black's Law Dictionary Dictionary, Sixth Edition, p. 1395.

SOVEREIGNTY - ...By "Sovereignty", in its largest sense is meant supreme, absolute, uncontrollable power, the absolute right to govern.
Black's Law Dictionary Dictionary, Sixth Edition, p. 1396.

=========
Further "technical" talk:

Pursuant to the Articles of Confederation, the term "United States" means Congress. In the Preamble to the U.S. Constitution, "People of the United States" does not refer to the people of the United States of America.

Pursuant to the Declaration of Independence, governments have 2 jobs: (a) secure rights, and (b) govern those who consent.

ALL AMERICANS did not consent to the U.S. Constitution, therefore it is a false assumption to think that the "People of the United States" means all Americans.


"The Constitution was ordained and established by the people of the United States for themselves, for their own government and not for the government of the individual States."
- - -John Barron v. The Mayor and City Council of Baltimore, 7 Peters 204,
(1822).

The people who created or submitted to the "United States, In Congress Assembled", were not the people of the individual states.

"But, indeed, no private person has a right to complain, by suit in Court, on the ground of a breach of the Constitution. The Constitution, it is true, is a compact, but he is not a party to it. The States are the parties to it. And they may complain...."
- - -Padelford, Fay & Co. vs. Mayor and Alderman, City of Savannah, 14 Ga. 438, 520 (1854) Supreme Court of Georgia

The parties to the compact known as the U.S. Constitution were the "United States, in Congress Assembled" (Federal corporation) and the States united - 13 former colonies.

And thus only those who swear an oath to the U.S. Constitution are bound by its terms.

Private people (i.e., American nationals) are not party to the compact, and have no duties to support nor defend it.

Hierarchy of Sovereignty:
[God]
Individual People
Government (servant to the people)
Citizens (subjects of government)
Denizens (inferior citizens)
Excepted Classes (pauper, vagabond, fugitives, etc)

(posted by jetgraphics - goldismoney forums)
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“You have no need that any man teach you, as His unction teacheth you of all things” (St. John, ii, 20). To know what God demands of them they need only probe their own hearts, and listen to the inspirations of this unction, which interpret the will of God according to circumstances.
lightshineon
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« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2009, 12:25:34 PM »

 The constitution is what makes the United States what it is. It is the foundation, of our core values. The Military, the police, Goverment officals are sworn to uphold, and defend it. In the Declaration of Idependence, it tells us to over throw a goverment that goes against the constitution. Hey, we are Americans, Citizens. It comes with privliges, like no other country in the world. It reminds me of Paul, in acts, when he was about to be beaten, he pulled " I am a Roman Citizen card", and was given rights, and could not be beaten without a trial.  God Bless America Holding up flag Holding up flag
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Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who will be glad to step on them.
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« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2009, 12:25:34 PM »

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Northboy
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« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2009, 09:27:35 AM »

Thanks for posting this.

I especially like the hierarchy of sovereignty. It explains a lot.

So a person that declares himself to be an independent person can declare he or her is sovereign and above the public servants, then citizens are below government, a virtual two class system...

Hmmmm looks French in origin to me, pamphleteering from 1782, the year before their revolution.But that's just me I'm sure.

Again, thanks for the posting.
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BondServant
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« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2009, 10:15:25 AM »

The constitution is what makes the United States what it is. It is the foundation, of our core values. The Military, the police, Goverment officals are sworn to uphold, and defend it. In the Declaration of Idependence, it tells us to over throw a goverment that goes against the constitution. Hey, we are Americans, Citizens. It comes with privliges, like no other country in the world. It reminds me of Paul, in acts, when he was about to be beaten, he pulled " I am a Roman Citizen card", and was given rights, and could not be beaten without a trial.  God Bless America

You are right that in the military we take a solemn oath to uphold and defend the constitution, but the Declaration of Independance does not tell us to overthrow a government that goes against the constitution.  It can't...the constitution was written 11 years after it.

In Christ,
KP
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« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2009, 10:15:25 AM »

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Johnb
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« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2009, 11:34:56 AM »

Yes but the D.I. was written to declare independence from taxation without representation and general disagreement with the tyranny of an oppressive government.
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