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Offline Dafydd

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Christian Socialism
« on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 19:22:15 »
Capitalism is based upon selfishness and greed – hardly Christian motives. Those who say that it agrees with human nature are correct, but we must remember that human nature has been corrupted by the Fall and is no longer as God intended. These days, a more or less powerful government is needed to bring about certain socialistic measures to blunt the raw edge of capitalism and make it more humane. Without a degree of government intervention in the economy, the poor would starve while a few ruthless people would grow rich and powerful.

In the USA, many evangelical Christians (though not all, fortunately) are Right wing. In the UK by contrast, many prominent socialists have been evangelical Christians. Keir Hardie, founder of the Independent Labour Party, was an evangelical preacher who often quoted from the Bible in his political speeches. The far Left socialist, Stafford Cripps (who formed a radical Left pressure group within the British Labour Party in the 1930s) derived his socialism from his evangelical Christian beliefs.

I believe that if society was dominated by Christians (mature Christians whose life came from Christ within and not minimalist Christians who remained largely egocentric), it would be “naturally” socialistic in the sense that its members would spontaneously behave in such a way that the stated aims of socialist governments would be automatically fulfilled. Then the government could largely wither away (although not necessarily disappear completely) and the “government” would be the inner rule of Christ through his surrendered people. This state of affairs will, I believe, eventually come about. Human nature will be redeemed because it will no longer flow from individual egos (from “sin within me”), but from the one true Self – Christ himself!

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Christian Socialism
« on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 19:22:15 »

Offline chosenone

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #1 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 19:30:49 »
The far left in the UK, such as momentum, are so far from godly it not true. Full of hate, bitterness, highly offensive behaviour, appalling attitude towards anyone who disagrees with them and so on. The far left are also very strong advocates of extreme abortion and LGBT 'rights'.

Offline mommydi

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #2 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 19:55:49 »
Here in the US, those on the right are capitalists and are more generous with their money and charitable donations than those on the left who believe in income redistribution and socialism which is the antithesis of Christian principles. Socialism also breeds envy - constantly checking out what others have and trying to take it from them so even the score.

Offline soterion

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #3 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 22:32:00 »
Dafydd,

Capitalism is based upon selfishness and greed – hardly Christian motives.

Capitalism is based on the concepts of private ownership and free enterprise. I have the right to make money, buy and sell products and services, grow my business and money, and compete with others engaged in similar businesses as mine. I have the right to take the money I make and ludicrously improve my lifestyle or give it all away to those around me I see as less fortunate, keep and pass it all down to my children when I die or give it all to some charity when I die, and I could use it all to oppose the state in some armed cult in the mountains or use it to support some political nominees of my choice. I can also use it to support the body of Christ to whatever degree and manner I see it can do the most good, or I can choose not to do so if I do not believe such good would result.

The point being that I have the freedom to spend, waste, invest, grow, give away, etc. my income and belongings as I see fit.

Now, you may see this type of thinking as anti-Christian. What you are forgetting is that God has given freewill to mankind, and not just in the choice regarding salvation in Christ. Before I entered into salvation by the grace of Christ, I had freewill regarding how I lived my life, worked, made money, what I did with my money, etc. Now, as a child of God, I still have those same choices every day (Acts 5:4). However, if somebody was to compare my expenditures and see where and how I have spent and invested my (God-given) money over time, there will be (should be  ::smile::) a noticeably gradual change due to Christ's influence in my decisions. Every aspect of our lives should show some positive change, to some greater or lesser extent, if we are gradually growing in Christ and resisting the evils of the deceiver. This is because we retain our freedom of choice in the various aspects of our lives because God would have us choose His will rather than be forced into His will.

I believe Socialism is the opposite of Capitalism because Socialism does not honor the freedom of those who have worked hard and earned, nor anybody else's freedom for that matter. Under Socialism, it is not the right of the money-earner to decide what will be done with the money; the decision goes to the controlling power in the state who will take most of the money, or all of it, and use it according to the will of the state. As for everybody looking and living the same and having equal opportunity...no doubt, but it will be in an environment of forced poverty. Those in control will be the only ones doing well. This is the example of every pure socialist attempt in history. It never works for the good of the people; all were equally downtrodden.

Now, I know you are talking about what you might call "Christian Socialism," and not the humanistic examples found in places like the U.S.S.R., Venezuela, and so forth. However, let me suggest two things. First, if any attempt to socialize Christianity is made, the humanistic examples will just repeat themselves. Those in control will become corrupt and the people will be left wanting. Second, any finding of socialism in the New Testament is a person reading it "into" the text. Socialism is not there. Socialism was not taught by Jesus, nor by any of the apostles.

A supposed example of socialism is found in Acts 4 and 5. People were selling their possessions and laying the money down at the feet of the apostles and the money was being distributed according to need. Here are a few things to keep in mind:
1. These were all freewill offerings; none of it was commanded.
2. Ananias and his wife Sapphira were told that there property was in their possession and was their's to do what they wanted, and, after they sold it, they were told the money was their's to do what they will. They were not constrained by God to do anything but exercise their choice. Their sin was not in how they handled the money but in lying about it afterward.
3. We have no example that this became the overall practice of the church everywhere from this point onward. In fact, we have nothing that tells us that this event was but a one time offering. If it had been repeated, then that's great, we just don't know. As it is, those who were the money-makers in that church remained the money-makers and they retained the freedom to do as they saw fit with the money (Capitalism, to the extent that Rome would have allowed it).

I believe that if society was dominated by Christians (mature Christians whose life came from Christ within and not minimalist Christians who remained largely egocentric), it would be “naturally” socialistic in the sense that its members would spontaneously behave in such a way that the stated aims of socialist governments would be automatically fulfilled.

A fairy tale. Again, socialism does not work. Also, no society will become so Christian as to do away with government and then the stated aims of socialistic governments will be fulfilled. You have to keep in mind that the "stated aims" of past socialistic governments were always lies. The leadership always got what they wanted...power over the people.

Nope. You'll just have to wait for Christ's return and heaven. Capitalism will be as close as you can get until then.  rofl

Your post reads like you have been overexposed, or even indoctrinated, into this line of thinking. Take some time to check out information from different points of view, just to give yourself a fair chance at seeing the facts of this issue.

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #3 on: Mon Apr 27, 2020 - 22:32:00 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline 4WD

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #4 on: Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 07:55:22 »
Capitalism is based upon selfishness and greed – hardly Christian motives.
Wrong ! !  Capitalism is based upon the sanctity of the individual.  Whether that individuality takes on the character of selfishness and greed or it takes on the character of selflessness and charity is all beside the point. 

Socialism on the other hand is all about the collective, the state. And that most definitely runs counter to Christianity.  Christianity is, without question, concerned with the individual.  As to Christian motives, nothing gets me POd more than the Socialist who wants to take my money so that he can give it to someone else and then take credit for "his", i.e. the Socialist's, charity. And that is clearly what and who the Socialist is.

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #4 on: Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 07:55:22 »



Offline 4WD

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #5 on: Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 07:59:06 »
Your post reads like you have been overexposed, or even indoctrinated, into this line of thinking. Take some time to check out information from different points of view, just to give yourself a fair chance at seeing the facts of this issue.
::thumbup:: ::thumbup::

+1

Offline Rella

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #6 on: Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 08:07:32 »
Capitalism is based upon selfishness and greed – hardly Christian motives. Those who say that it agrees with human nature are correct, but we must remember that human nature has been corrupted by the Fall and is no longer as God intended. These days, a more or less powerful government is needed to bring about certain socialistic measures to blunt the raw edge of capitalism and make it more humane. Without a degree of government intervention in the economy, the poor would starve while a few ruthless people would grow rich and powerful.

In the USA, many evangelical Christians (though not all, fortunately) are Right wing. In the UK by contrast, many prominent socialists have been evangelical Christians. Keir Hardie, founder of the Independent Labour Party, was an evangelical preacher who often quoted from the Bible in his political speeches. The far Left socialist, Stafford Cripps (who formed a radical Left pressure group within the British Labour Party in the 1930s) derived his socialism from his evangelical Christian beliefs.

I believe that if society was dominated by Christians (mature Christians whose life came from Christ within and not minimalist Christians who remained largely egocentric), it would be “naturally” socialistic in the sense that its members would spontaneously behave in such a way that the stated aims of socialist governments would be automatically fulfilled. Then the government could largely wither away (although not necessarily disappear completely) and the “government” would be the inner rule of Christ through his surrendered people. This state of affairs will, I believe, eventually come about. Human nature will be redeemed because it will no longer flow from individual egos (from “sin within me”), but from the one true Self – Christ himself!

Without capitalism do you believe that you can follow

2 Thessalonians 3:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Simplifying this command by the explanation

It take capitalism to make the work that offers the pay to those to buy what they eat.

And if you are one of those who believes he is his brothers keeper I will tell you, you can only do that if under capitalism you are paid enough salary to keep your brother an you.

If you are one who believes that the government should take care of one and all, then YOU believe in slavery. It IS that simple.

The difference is that you have people over you who can decide and will decide your future and how you live.  That is what the left wants, and that is what the left intends, and it matters not how they get it.

But always remember, God pulled His people out of slavery. (Read  Exodus)  And out of corrupt government control.

Final thoughts.

Under capitalism you have your freedoms to be a Christian.

Under socialism your freedoms to be a Christian will chase you into a closet to worship.


Offline Dafydd

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #7 on: Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 20:29:24 »
"If you are one who believes that the government should take care of one and all, then YOU believe in slavery. It IS that simple."

If you want to see slavery, just look at how workers in developing countries are exploited by (capitalist) multi-national corporations.

Everyone replying has stressed the freedom of the capitalists, but how free are workers? How free are those who die because thy cannot afford proper medical treatment and receive no assistance from the government?

On the other hand, I do agree that much of the UK Left has been diverted in recent years to supporting minorities, often of dubious character. My reference was more to the earlier and more definitely socialist left with people like Hardie, Cripps and so forth. Also, socialistic ideas (based on Christian ethics) were quite popular amongst many early Pentecostals in the USA. "For God and socialism" was a popular call amongst many of these groups.

Offline soterion

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #8 on: Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 21:48:34 »
"If you are one who believes that the government should take care of one and all, then YOU believe in slavery. It IS that simple."

If you want to see slavery, just look at how workers in developing countries are exploited by (capitalist) multi-national corporations.

Those are examples of corrupt leadership, not an example of the system of Capitalism. I had already pointed out to you that absolute poverty has been a result of past examples of Socialism.

Quote
Everyone replying has stressed the freedom of the capitalists, but how free are workers?

I am a worker and I am free. All workers in America are free as such. You are making a distinction between "the capitalists" and "the workers." This is based on what?

Quote
How free are those who die because thy cannot afford proper medical treatment and receive no assistance from the government?

Super loaded question. Who are those people that cannot afford proper medical treatment? Why can they not afford it? What countries are you talking about?

What actually is the purpose of the government? The answer largely depends on which government in which nation we are talking about.

In America, I see the purpose of the government as upholding the rights and privileges and responsibilities for every citizen, as stated in the Constitution of the United States. At the same time, I see the purpose of the Constitution as limiting the actions of the government with regard to the citizens, thus upholding the various freedoms and privileges stated within.

In addition, I see the Constitution and socialism as being incompatible. Remember how 4WD Captilasm is based on the sanctity of the individual? The Constitution upholds the sanctity of each person under its protection; Socialism, on the other hand, is The Borg- you will be assimilated for the sake of the collective.  ::smile::

Offline Alan

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #9 on: Wed Apr 29, 2020 - 07:27:47 »
"If you are one who believes that the government should take care of one and all, then YOU believe in slavery. It IS that simple."

If you want to see slavery, just look at how workers in developing countries are exploited by (capitalist) multi-national corporations.



The countries you are referring to are far left to begin with, their employment with capitalist organizations does not supersede their own governments labor standards. In the free democratic world people are free to come and go as they please, there exists no slave labor. 
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 29, 2020 - 12:10:01 by Alan »

Offline Rella

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #10 on: Wed Apr 29, 2020 - 11:49:05 »
"If you are one who believes that the government should take care of one and all, then YOU believe in slavery. It IS that simple."

If you want to see slavery, just look at how workers in developing countries are exploited by (capitalist) multi-national corporations.

Everyone replying has stressed the freedom of the capitalists, but how free are workers? How free are those who die because thy cannot afford proper medical treatment and receive no assistance from the government?

On the other hand, I do agree that much of the UK Left has been diverted in recent years to supporting minorities, often of dubious character. My reference was more to the earlier and more definitely socialist left with people like Hardie, Cripps and so forth. Also, socialistic ideas (based on Christian ethics) were quite popular amongst many early Pentecostals in the USA. "For God and socialism" was a popular call amongst many of these groups.

Bet the common worker in North Korea, China, and even Cuba still would be thrill to live in capitalist USA.

Offline retiro

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #11 on: Wed Apr 29, 2020 - 17:59:11 »
If you want to see slavery, just look at how workers in developing countries are exploited by (capitalist) multi-national corporations.
Everyone replying has stressed the freedom of the capitalists, but how free are workers? How free are those who die because thy cannot afford proper medical treatment and receive no assistance from the government?
that "exploitation by multi-national corporations" is one favorite myth of the left. Let me just say that exploitation is not a matter of size. Lots of small employers will try to exploit if they are not prevented by appropriate laws. Even your beloved "worker" will betray his neighbor if he is not prevented. It is the job of government: create and maintain appropriate laws. No one is denying this. Appropriate laws are those along the lines of the biblical commandments: "thouh shalt not kill", "thouh shalt not steal". The protection of private property is one fundamental principle ("thou shalt not covet") of the bible.

The worst manifestations of slavery in history arose when governments tried to run an economy or define or install some ideologically defined "justice". It is an advanced form of idiotism to think you can overcome man's inherent evil by putting absolute power into the hands of a small group of - men (or women or whatever).
« Last Edit: Thu Apr 30, 2020 - 04:14:45 by retiro »

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #12 on: Thu Apr 30, 2020 - 14:25:09 »
Capitalism is based upon selfishness and greed – hardly Christian motives. Those who say that it agrees with human nature are correct, but we must remember that human nature has been corrupted by the Fall and is no longer as God intended. These days, a more or less powerful government is needed to bring about certain socialistic measures to blunt the raw edge of capitalism and make it more humane. Without a degree of government intervention in the economy, the poor would starve while a few ruthless people would grow rich and powerful.

In the USA, many evangelical Christians (though not all, fortunately) are Right wing. In the UK by contrast, many prominent socialists have been evangelical Christians. Keir Hardie, founder of the Independent Labour Party, was an evangelical preacher who often quoted from the Bible in his political speeches. The far Left socialist, Stafford Cripps (who formed a radical Left pressure group within the British Labour Party in the 1930s) derived his socialism from his evangelical Christian beliefs.

I believe that if society was dominated by Christians (mature Christians whose life came from Christ within and not minimalist Christians who remained largely egocentric), it would be “naturally” socialistic in the sense that its members would spontaneously behave in such a way that the stated aims of socialist governments would be automatically fulfilled. Then the government could largely wither away (although not necessarily disappear completely) and the “government” would be the inner rule of Christ through his surrendered people. This state of affairs will, I believe, eventually come about. Human nature will be redeemed because it will no longer flow from individual egos (from “sin within me”), but from the one true Self – Christ himself!

You are very idealistic, but with tainted references that suggest you are closer to middle age than early twenties.  Nevertheless somewhat of your basic assertions are a bit skewed.

The basic definition of capitalism is an economic system where the means of production and distribution are privately held.  Major corruption occurred when the 14th Amendment of the US constitution was ratified.  The 14th amendment provided the legal definition and precedent of a corporation's rights and privileges - the same as those previously reserved for humans.

The Bible approves of private ownership of property and the means to accumulate wealth.

Consider every major Bible character that profited in whatever situation God placed them.  All of them earned the fruit of their work, and God is good with that situation.   The alternative is slavery - to a private individual to a corporation or to a government.  The Bible tells us God opposes the oppressor no matter what form it takes.

That being said.....

Economic definitions went along smoothly until the industrial revolution.  Those that had the means and cleverness to exploit new technologies made an obscene amount of money on the blood sweat and tears of their employees.  Taxes crippled the working man and government was slack in its efforts to provide fair treatment for the worker.   It still is. 

Political despotism in the form of radical socialism (Communism) or radical capitalism (Fascism) were opposite sides of the political spectrum, but always oppressed the working man.  Flags of each nation claimed the right to wage war and murder millions.  They still do.

In Twenty-first century America, fascism has won the struggle between government control of production and private control of production.  Though not altogether as extremist as its predecessors, the US version has successfully pulled the teeth of socialist organizations such as labor unions and opposition parties.  Though both exist, neither form has any real power to exact change.   Most Americans are completely unaware of the struggle or totally ignorant it ever existed.  Partisan politics fueled by social media stoke the flames of political frustration but accomplish little in terms of real change or advantage due the average American worker.

Where is God in all this?

In the 1980's, evangelical churches aligned themselves with the right wing lunatic fringe.  Persons such as Pat Robertson, one of the wealthiest TV evangelists, and Ronald Reagan, a political opportunist who successfully masked covert terrorist operations abroad, focused the political pressure of dull witted Christians in the <right> direction.  Main line churches, already engaged in whittling the Bible down to the size of a toothpick, and who no longer possessed a spiritual basis for their decisions began to align themselves with liberals.  They did so because no other option was available.   Neither church group actually understood the underlying motives of their respective partisan group.  They just liked the language their candidates vomited forth.

Neither group paid the slightest attention to God's LAW, God's principles or God's action in the real world.

All of them, then and now, presume God will back their play.   He won't.   God is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34) and God is not an American.

In point of fact, IF GOD DOES NOT JUDGE AMERICA HE WILL HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO SODOM AND GOMORRAH.

What was Jesus' position?  He abstained from politics.  When asked He said to give to God those things that belong to God and give to the government those things which belong to government.  (Luke 20:25)

What things belong to government?  Taxes and obedience to civil laws are the domain of government. Allegiance is NOT. 

God demands 100% allegiance, not a flag.   That's the first commandment, btw.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft.....
« Last Edit: Thu Apr 30, 2020 - 14:29:18 by Choir Loft »

Offline retiro

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #13 on: Thu Apr 30, 2020 - 15:02:13 »
Quote
Political despotism in the form of radical socialism (Communism) or radical capitalism (Fascism) were opposite sides of the political spectrum, but always oppressed the working man.  Flags of each nation claimed the right to wage war and murder millions.  They still do.
dear goodness, where do you get those definitions from? To equate fascism with capitalism is really far fetched at best. Since there really is no definition of fascism in existence, all you can do is trace back the historic roots of the name, which lay in italy of the first half of the 20th cetury, where one Benito Mussollini set up political men's associations (italian fasci = association) which later put him into power as a dictator. Those fascists were nationalistic, racist and totalitarian. Beyond that, in particular in the german variant, they were collectivists and socialists (hence the name national socialists used by the german nazis).

Real socialism is always despotic, because by its very nature it tries to impose ideas. That is the reason why it is completely incompatible with christianity, and that is why socialist governments have always turned against christianity. Capitalism simply means the freedom to acquire wealth, which is perfectly good and biblical, if it is done without stealing from somebody else. The nazis were much closer to socialism than to capitalism

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #14 on: Thu Apr 30, 2020 - 16:31:32 »
You are very idealistic, but with tainted references that suggest you are closer to middle age than early twenties.  Nevertheless somewhat of your basic assertions are a bit skewed.

The basic definition of capitalism is an economic system where the means of production and distribution are privately held.  Major corruption occurred when the 14th Amendment of the US constitution was ratified.  The 14th amendment provided the legal definition and precedent of a corporation's rights and privileges - the same as those previously reserved for humans.

The Bible approves of private ownership of property and the means to accumulate wealth.

Consider every major Bible character that profited in whatever situation God placed them.  All of them earned the fruit of their work, and God is good with that situation.   The alternative is slavery - to a private individual to a corporation or to a government.  The Bible tells us God opposes the oppressor no matter what form it takes.

That being said.....

Economic definitions went along smoothly until the industrial revolution.  Those that had the means and cleverness to exploit new technologies made an obscene amount of money on the blood sweat and tears of their employees.  Taxes crippled the working man and government was slack in its efforts to provide fair treatment for the worker.   It still is. 

Political despotism in the form of radical socialism (Communism) or radical capitalism (Fascism) were opposite sides of the political spectrum, but always oppressed the working man.  Flags of each nation claimed the right to wage war and murder millions.  They still do.

In Twenty-first century America, fascism has won the struggle between government control of production and private control of production.  Though not altogether as extremist as its predecessors, the US version has successfully pulled the teeth of socialist organizations such as labor unions and opposition parties.  Though both exist, neither form has any real power to exact change.   Most Americans are completely unaware of the struggle or totally ignorant it ever existed.  Partisan politics fueled by social media stoke the flames of political frustration but accomplish little in terms of real change or advantage due the average American worker.

Where is God in all this?

In the 1980's, evangelical churches aligned themselves with the right wing lunatic fringe.  Persons such as Pat Robertson, one of the wealthiest TV evangelists, and Ronald Reagan, a political opportunist who successfully masked covert terrorist operations abroad, focused the political pressure of dull witted Christians in the <right> direction.  Main line churches, already engaged in whittling the Bible down to the size of a toothpick, and who no longer possessed a spiritual basis for their decisions began to align themselves with liberals.  They did so because no other option was available.   Neither church group actually understood the underlying motives of their respective partisan group.  They just liked the language their candidates vomited forth.

Neither group paid the slightest attention to God's LAW, God's principles or God's action in the real world.

All of them, then and now, presume God will back their play.   He won't.   God is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34) and God is not an American.

In point of fact, IF GOD DOES NOT JUDGE AMERICA HE WILL HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO SODOM AND GOMORRAH.

What was Jesus' position?  He abstained from politics.  When asked He said to give to God those things that belong to God and give to the government those things which belong to government.  (Luke 20:25)

What things belong to government?  Taxes and obedience to civil laws are the domain of government. Allegiance is NOT. 

God demands 100% allegiance, not a flag.   That's the first commandment, btw.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft.....

Every true instance of fascism was socialist.  The government controlled the means of production.  You need to revisit history a bit.

And that's me, hollering at the guy in the choir loft.

Offline Amo

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #15 on: Sun May 03, 2020 - 10:31:42 »
Capitalism is based upon selfishness and greed – hardly Christian motives. Those who say that it agrees with human nature are correct, but we must remember that human nature has been corrupted by the Fall and is no longer as God intended. These days, a more or less powerful government is needed to bring about certain socialistic measures to blunt the raw edge of capitalism and make it more humane. Without a degree of government intervention in the economy, the poor would starve while a few ruthless people would grow rich and powerful.

In the USA, many evangelical Christians (though not all, fortunately) are Right wing. In the UK by contrast, many prominent socialists have been evangelical Christians. Keir Hardie, founder of the Independent Labour Party, was an evangelical preacher who often quoted from the Bible in his political speeches. The far Left socialist, Stafford Cripps (who formed a radical Left pressure group within the British Labour Party in the 1930s) derived his socialism from his evangelical Christian beliefs.

I believe that if society was dominated by Christians (mature Christians whose life came from Christ within and not minimalist Christians who remained largely egocentric), it would be “naturally” socialistic in the sense that its members would spontaneously behave in such a way that the stated aims of socialist governments would be automatically fulfilled. Then the government could largely wither away (although not necessarily disappear completely) and the “government” would be the inner rule of Christ through his surrendered people. This state of affairs will, I believe, eventually come about. Human nature will be redeemed because it will no longer flow from individual egos (from “sin within me”), but from the one true Self – Christ himself!

In every society or government, corruption leads to a few ruthless people growing rich and powerful at the expense of those they abuse. Socialism simply hands all the power and wealth over to government, and thereby becomes corrupted more rapidly. Capitalism leans more toward personal effort and or responsibility, which is what makes it most like a "Christian" economic system. Biblical Christianity is all about personal responsibility, first accepting our own responsibility for the crucifixion of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, then following His example of moral rectitude. Our personal responsibility to those around us being a crucial part of that morality. There is no governmental answer for those who will not govern their own selves. This nation became great because a majority within it were Bible believing and practicing Christians who first determined to govern themsleves and therefore became capable of forming a government built upon this most important principle. It is the confusion and chaos of leaving this biblical foundation that has corrupted and continues to destroy our society and government. Socialism is not the answer, nor is any other man made remedy.

Throwing the term Christian in front of this or that economic or governmental system of this world will never make it so. You do err, because you do not truly believe, or know, or understand the scriptures. God's kingdom is not of this world, nor will any form of government from within it save or purify humanity by placing the label of Christian before it. To the contrary, as scripture testifies, humanity will only deceive itself into believing such and thereby form the final beast of biblical prophecy, as the Pope continually suggests with his false unity of all humanity and heavy leaning toward socialism and or communism as you apparently do as well. Are you Catholic, or just following after the Catholic churches social justice agenda?

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

A society and government based upon personal freedoms and rights, is the only type that may be considered "Christian". Not because it actually is, unless of course everyone in it was a true Christian, but because such allows for the development of true Christianity and the fulfillment of Christ commission to the same. The spreading of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2018/07/03/the-catholic-roots-of-the-new-socialism/

Quote below is from link above, emphasis is mine.

Quote
The Catholic roots of the New Socialism

The “patron saint” of today’s Democratic Socialists of America got his start with Dorothy Day’s Catholic Worker Movement. But for Day, prayer and the sacraments came first, not “the revolution.”

In a primary defeat that the New York Times has called “the most significant loss for a Democratic incumbent in more than a decade,” ten-term Representative Joseph Crowley of New York was defeated in a Queens and Bronx district that is majority-minority by Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, a 28-year-old Latina. A native of the Bronx and a former community organizer for Bernie Sanders’ presidential campaign, Ocasio-Cortez, a member of the Democratic Socialists of America, declared that it was “time for generational, racial, and ideological change.” She garnered more than 57 percent of the vote in the primary.

The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) rhetoric played well in the 14th District, which is 70 percent people of color, and 50 percent immigrant. Founded in New York City by Michael Harrington, an Irish Catholic and Holy Cross College graduate, the DSA still draws upon the same rhetoric surrounding Catholic social teachings on human dignity and human flourishing that Harrington promoted in his early days of community organizing in the 1950s. In 1951, Harrington got his start in socialism at what the DSA website calls “Dorothy Day’s anarchist-pacifist Catholic Worker movement.” In the early days, Harrington was devoted to the Catholic movement, residing at the group’s “House of Hospitality” on Chrystie Street in Manhattan’s Lower East Side. “There, with other volunteers, he worked in the soup kitchen which catered to the homeless alcoholics who crowded the nearby Bowery District,” according to the DSA website.

Although Harrington eventually abandoned Catholicism and joined the Young People’s Socialist League, a youth affiliate of the Socialist Party, Catholic social teachings on the importance of dignity in work and human flourishing continued to shape Harrington’s rhetoric and his organizing strategies. He inspired the formation of faith-based organizing that we still see today in Catholic Churches throughout the country, many of them funded through the Catholic Campaign for Human Development. Pope Leo XIII’s 1891 encyclical Rerum Novarum was used in these early days to provide a guiding force in organizing workers because it gave a Catholic rationale for the worker’s right to organize and secure what Harrington called “economic dignity.” In 1973, Harrington broke away from the Socialist Party, creating the Democratic Socialist Organizing Committee, which merged with the leftist New American Movement in 1982. The merged organization became the Democratic Socialists of America.

Ocasio-Cortez is a direct descendant of Harrington, drawing from the same rhetoric and strategies. But, today’s movement is a Democratic Socialism that has been emptied of any pretense of Catholicism. In an interview with Vogue magazine earlier this month, Ocasio-Cortez tried to explain Democratic Socialism:

"I think what it really means is just democratic participation in our economic dignity, and our economic, social, and racial dignity. It is about direct representation and people actually having power and stake over their economic and social wellness, at the end of the day. To me, what socialism means is to guarantee a basic level of dignity…to examine the historical inequities that have created much of the inequalities—both in terms of economics and social and racial justice."

For Ocasio-Cortez, and quite possibly a majority of the voters in the 14th District in New York, socialism is the only way to “guarantee a basic level of dignity. … There is no other force, there is no other party, there is no other real ideology out there right now that is asserting the minimum elements necessary to lead a dignified American life.”

Tapping into the resentment of her constituents, Ocasio-Cortez was the first New York primary candidate to call for abolishing the Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency (ICE), and for clearing the path to citizenship—claiming that “ICE operates with virtually no accountability, ripping apart families and holding our friends and neighbors indefinitely in inhumane detention centers.”

Outspent by the Crowley campaign by a 10 to 1 ratio, the Ocasio-Cortez campaign received 70 percent of its contributions from individual contributions under $200. Progressive PACs including Brand New Congress and Justice Democrats, as well as MoveOn, Democracy in Action, and People for Bernie, provided valuable endorsements.

While Ocasio-Cortez’s economic rhetoric draws heavily from Catholic social teachings on human dignity, it is a redefined and hollowed-out Catholicism in many respects. Human dignity for Ocasio-Cortez and the Democratic Socialists of America requires full reproductive rights. On her website, Ocasio-Cortez demands “reproductive freedom for all individuals of marginalized genders, including cisgender women and trans people…Alexandria does not accept any federal, state, or local rollbacks, cuts, or restrictions on the ability of individuals to access quality reproductive healthcare services…open access to safe legal, affordable abortion.”

Notably absent from Ocasio-Cortez’s supporters were the usual progressive Catholic organizations. There are not (yet) many Catholic colleges and universities with chapters of Democratic Socialists of America on campus. And, although Georgetown University is listed on the Democratic Socialists of America website as having an active chapter on campus, the chapter website is unavailable.

It is likely that others will follow the Ocasio-Cortez socialist playbook as they try to carve out a new niche in the Democratic Party. Her stand on open borders and a path to citizenship for all is appealing to many progressives. The abolition of ICE has quickly become a mantra for progressive Democrats like Kirsten Gillibrand, D-NY.

That creates a problem for progressive Catholics. In some ways it is similar to the dilemma that DSA founder Michael Harrington faced in 1952 when he departed both the Catholic Worker movement and the Church to join the Young People’s Socialist League. Harrington is idolized by the DSA today—and his religious connection is part of the pseudo-sainthood he has achieved within the DSA. There has been a recent re-launch of the DSA publication Religious Socialism and although there is not yet a Catholic presence on the editorial board, there are a number of prestigious professors, including Princeton philosophy professor and honorary chair of the DSA Cornel West.

Harrington recalled in his 1973 memoir, Fragments of the Century: “All I knew of the Catholic Worker when I walked into the House of Hospitality in 1951 was that it was as far Left as you could go within the Church.” When Harrington left the Church, he called it an act of “pious apostasy.” Harrington, like many of today’s progressive Catholics, wanted to go further left than the Church could have allowed; but unlike Harrington, many of today’s Catholics are attempting to change the Church from within.

In the opening lines of The Other America, Harrington’s best-selling sociological study of poverty in the United States, he credits Dorothy Day and the Catholic Worker movement with opening his eyes to the “terrible reality of involuntary poverty and the magnificent ideal of voluntary poverty.” But, as Patrick Jordan recently pointed out in an essay titled “Dorothy Day, The Catholic Worker, and the Liturgy,” Dorothy Day’s commitment to alleviating the pain of the poor was always “a personalist and communitarian movement, inspired and maintained by sharing the poverty of the crucified Christ in the poor.” Jordan recalls that Day once wrote:

"Without the sacraments of the Church, primarily the Eucharist, the Lord’s Supper as it is sometime called, I certainly do not think that I could go on… Only by nourishing ourselves as we have been bidden to do by Christ, by eating His body and drinking His blood, can we become Christ and put on the new man."

For Day, faith and prayer came first. An obedient daughter of the Church, Day supported Catholic teachings on divorce, contraception, and abortion. She often spoke of the need to return to the spirit of Franciscan poverty, charity, and obedience. So obedient, it has been said that Day would have closed down the Catholic Worker movement if Rome had asked her to do that. In contrast, for Michael Harrington, the socialist revolution came first. It is difficult to predict whether progressive Catholics will follow the sacramental model promoted by Dorothy Day, or the “pious apostasy” of Michael Harrington.

The movement toward socialism in our nation has Roman Catholicism written all over it. The present Pope unquestionably leans heavily toward it, and prefers it above evil Capitalism which he routinely attacks. Certain Catholics have even boasted that China's government comes closer to the vision of Roman Catholic social justice, than any other. The Roman Catholic church is not communist though, it is not socialist or capitalist either. To the contrary, it is a unique political entity which conquers all others by entering nations under a religious guise crying for religious freedom if necessary to obtain access, then taking over from within by commanding the ever increasing number of her adherents to establish her social justice agenda through legislation. She is as determined as ever to establish what she has always believed to be her divine right, rule over all the religions and governments of this world. She used the evil capitalist United States to help her topple evil communism as a world power in the recent past, and she now sides with socialists and communists to topple the US as such as well, so that she will be the only remaining world or globalist power. Or at the very least, the one on top of the new global order she continually calls for and seeks to establish. If this isn't a ruthless attempt to put greater wealth and power into the hands of fewer people, then what is?

It is no surprise that an institution greatly supported by wealth redistribution to the tune of countless billions of dollars every year from tax paying citizens the world over with or without their consent, seeks to establish government which also redistributes the wealth of all as it sees fit. Especially since she will obviously have a good deal of influence toward that distribution as well. There is nothing Christian about such. Free will offerings alone, have any merit in God's eyes.



 

Offline Amo

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #16 on: Sun May 03, 2020 - 10:53:15 »
https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2018/10/01/yes-democratic-socialism-compatible-catholic-social-teaching

Article below from link above, emphasis mine.

Quote
Yes, democratic socialism is compatible with Catholic social teaching

There is a wave of millennials running for office this fall, and many are running as democratic socialists. The most popular may be Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, the Democratic congressional nominee in New York whose clarion voice has already made her a national leader. From Hawaii to Tennessee, from county to federal positions, dozens of members of the Democratic Socialists of America are on the ballot. But can Catholic millennials intrigued by socialism find a warrant for it within our tradition? Or do we find a restraining check?

Catholic social teaching gives us a strong rubric to turn to for answers. It does not throw its weight behind any particular economic or governmental structure. Instead, it promotes principles of justice and asks the faithful to adjudicate whether and how a policy promotes them.

The fundamental principle of Catholic social teaching is the reality and vitality of God in creation and each human individual. We can judge all social action against this simple criterion: Does it promote that dignity? Here are four specific principles derived from this criterion that help us evaluate what is now being called democratic socialism.

People over markets. In 1986, the U.S. Catholic bishops released a pastoral letter in which they said: “Every perspective on economic life that is human, moral, and Christian must be shaped by three questions: ‘What does the economy do for people? What does it do to people? And how do people participate in it?’” Too often, Americans serve the market as if it were its own end, its own good. But the market must exist to promote human flourishing. What good is the market if it rots one’s ability to flourish, whether we are speaking of a father who cannot find work and health care to support his family because the market does not “value” his labor or an executive who works 100 hours a week to keep productivity up with shareholder demand? What do we serve? Is God alive in the market or in the person?

People over labor. In our capitalist society, many value a person based on the wealth their labor generates. (Economists call this “human capital theory.”) This often means we do not respect the person who does low-wage labor, while so-called wealth generators, from small-business owners to titans like Steve Jobs, are venerated. But C.S.T. says that we, made in the image of God, are ourselves creators. Our labor is valuable precisely because it is human. What if the seams sewn in Bangladesh, the appliances assembled in China and the food delivered via phone app burned for us with the sacredness of the unseen hands who made them?

People over profit. The corollary to “people over labor” is that human creativity must be dignified. If we do not base a person’s value on their output but on their dignity, then regardless of what one makes or does, one’s work should be safe and it should garner a secure life. This is why, from the first papal encyclical of Catholic social teaching in 1891, the church has expressed unequivocal support for the formation of labor unions. The dignity of one’s life—whether or not one is safe from the violent arm of a boss or a machine; the ability to buy a good breakfast, clothes and school supplies for one’s children; the possibility of retirement; the care of one’s body; healing in a time of sickness—should not depend on whether or how one was able to turn a profit.

Subsidiarity. C.S.T. has a clear warning about socialism: The rights and dignity of the individual must not be violated or diminished, even in service of the greater good. This warning is related to the principle of subsidiarity, which states that individuals’ needs should be met by local government or civil society whenever that is feasible. Democratic socialists have their eyes on big problems and are suggesting big solutions at the national level. In some cases, this may be what we need, but voters should be sure that one-size-fits-all proposals do not diminish individual liberty and expression.

Since no two democratic socialist candidates have identical platforms, each should be analyzed on their own terms, using these four guidelines.

Baby boomers tend to associate socialism with Communist nations such as the Soviet Union and Cuba—brutal, bloody, authoritarian regimes. But millennials do not much remember the Cold War, the “red” threat to religious freedom and democracy or hiding under desks for fear of nuclear annihilation. Our generation’s crisis is the financial collapse of 2008, the ensuing economic recession and the explosion of inequality that now persists. We feel it devaluing our labor, making it hard to own a home, get married, have children or pay off student debt. We came of age as Social Security, voting rights, workers’ rights, public schools and our infrastructure have been allowed to deteriorate in the name of freedom and capitalism.

We tend to associate socialism with democracies: Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland—countries that have low economic inequality and a high quality of life, achieved through universal social programs and financed through high tax rates. By my analysis, democratic socialists’ economic policy proposals are compatible with Catholic social teaching. But each voter must judge with his or her own conscience, moved by the promises of Oslo or the warnings of Stalingrad.

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #17 on: Sun May 03, 2020 - 14:55:58 »
dear goodness, where do you get those definitions from? To equate fascism with capitalism is really far fetched at best. Since there really is no definition of fascism in existence, all you can do is trace back the historic roots of the name, which lay in italy of the first half of the 20th cetury, where one Benito Mussollini set up political men's associations (italian fasci = association) which later put him into power as a dictator. Those fascists were nationalistic, racist and totalitarian. Beyond that, in particular in the german variant, they were collectivists and socialists (hence the name national socialists used by the german nazis).

Real socialism is always despotic, because by its very nature it tries to impose ideas. That is the reason why it is completely incompatible with christianity, and that is why socialist governments have always turned against christianity. Capitalism simply means the freedom to acquire wealth, which is perfectly good and biblical, if it is done without stealing from somebody else. The nazis were much closer to socialism than to capitalism

You have no idea of the nature of fascism - equating it as you do with German National Socialism of the 1930's.  Here are two definitions suggested by historic leaders.  I think they have a better idea of it than the average American.

"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it comes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group." - President Franklin D. Roosevelt

"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power" - Benito Mussolini

And a third by a prominent nobel prize winning author.

"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

The classic definition of fascism includes dictatorial control and autocratic rule.  That's a problem for Americans who don't see the dangers of encroaching corporatism or are unaware of current political realities.   

The three primary branches of government in America are NOT what we were taught in school. 
They are: the military-industrial complex, the financial cartel and the intelligence community.  
None are elected and all function independently of one another.   
Congress and the President are subservient to them. 
POTUS, in reality, is a middle management position.

From the time ANY member of congress is elected, as well as POTUS, they are consumed with the necessity of raising funds for re-election.  Where do these funds come from?  They usually come from corporate contributions.
Does the reader really believe that contributions of millions of dollars on behalf of corporate interest is not given without expectation of favorable action in return? 
Voters give little or nothing, therefore their influence on government is minimal.

"Any individual who is able to raise [enough money] to be considered presidential is not going to be much use to the people at large. He will represent...whatever moneyed entities are paying for him.... Hence, the sense of despair throughout the land as incomes fall, businesses fail and there is no redress." - GORE VIDAL

Why do you suppose there has been so much talk about voting irregularities in America over the last twenty years?  It's not because we don't have a system that can accurately count votes.  It's because votes aren't being accurately counted.   Have you asked yourself why it's easy to install an ATM that never fails and impossible to setup voting machines that don't have 'glitches'?  The problem is deliberate.

The people who cast the votes don't decide an election, the people who count the votes do. - Joseph Stalin

In twenty-first century America, the free enterprise system has been turned into a fascistic state-run economic system. If you disagree, do this little exercise: think about everything you do every day - everything your life touches - everything that touches you. Then find me one second of your 24-hour day that isn't regulated by government. You can't even breathe without a Federal regulation on clean air in place.

The truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there?  Cruelty and injustice perpetrated by police as well as racial intolerance and oppression is rampant. Where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission.   If one black man or one poor Latino is suppressed or intimidated, how long do you think it will be before the white middle class isn't affected?

Do you really believe our leaders intend us to be free to do and say and believe as we please? THEY DO NOT.  Consider the words of two former presidents.

'There ought to be limits to freedom.' --Presidential candidate George W. Bush in a press conference at the Texas State House, May 21, 1999

"The role of government is to rein in the rights of the people." - Bill Clinton

As stated in a previous post of mine, Communism is socialism in the extreme.   Government controls production and provides the excuse its for the good of the people.  Fascism is capitalism in the extreme.  Government is controlled by corporate influence and the excuse is that it's for the good of the people.  Meanwhile the gullible masses in both cases believe everything they're told by government.

Use the following list of fascist tendencies to measure its progress in America.  (An asterisk * precedes those items which are now observable.)

  Nobody says "NO" and lives to talk about it.
* liberalism is history
* Constant warfare
* Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
* Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
* Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
* Supremacy of the Military
* Rampant Sexism - government exclusively male-dominated
* Controlled Mass Media
* Obsession with National Security
* Religion and Government are Intertwined
* Corporate Power is Protected
* Labor Power is Suppressed
  Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - expression suppressed
* Obsession with Crime and Punishment
* Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
* Fraudulent Elections

* 15/17 positive hits

Finally it can be truly said that America has turned its back on God.  Certainly the land is filled with religious folks, but few of them have any idea what their religion truly entails.  In America the STATE, not God is given ultimate allegiance.

The alienation of God in society began in the classroom. Today, blasphemies can easily be seen on TV and the cinema. Hollywood portrays the sane as the insane. The abnormal and perverted as normal. The unborn babies are seen as nothing. The silent holocaust continues. Is it any wonder America is in trouble? - Pravda

Those who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants." -William Penn

The reader may turn his back upon current dangerous trends in American society.  The reader may ignore the warning signs.   The reader may ignore God Himself, but doing so will result in the reader losing what little remains of personal liberty.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. - George Santayana

The judgment of God that falls upon America will be to give its self-corrupted people exactly what they want.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
« Last Edit: Sun May 03, 2020 - 15:01:05 by Choir Loft »

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #18 on: Sun May 03, 2020 - 15:08:25 »
Quote below is from link above, emphasis is mine.

The movement toward socialism in our nation has Roman Catholicism written all over it.

It is not socialism that bears the Mark (Rev 16:2) of Catholicism, but American religion.  Protestantism marches in lock-step with the doctrines of the Vatican.

From the Reformation it was not so, but today the churches of American Protestantism draw their religious theory and observance from Papal decrees, NOT the Bible.

and if you remind any of them of their duplicity, they will adamantly deny it.

Of such is the mind of the SINNER so corrupted by those who preach doctrines of demons that they cannot see or admit to the error of their ways.

In America it is Corporatism, or more appropriately Fascism, that holds the reigns of power.   The influence upon American government is secular, not religious.  Minor political groups or religious fanatics within the Republican party call for policy that will never materialize.  Of all those who struggle to have their voices heard, the religious are the weakest and most self-deluded - because they have denied the very God they claim to admire.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
« Last Edit: Sun May 03, 2020 - 15:13:54 by Choir Loft »

Offline retiro

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #19 on: Mon May 04, 2020 - 14:26:06 »
Quote
Fascism is capitalism in the extreme.
it doesn't get better by repeating it. This subject may not be worth the effort, but anyway: there is no clear definition of fascism, because there is no manifest that describes it. This is different from socialism and communism - both are clearly defined in the "communist manifest" written by Karl Marx. It is that book that mentions socialism as the precursor of true communism.

Whoever you may quote - whether they bear nobel prices or not is meaningless to me - still any history book will tell you that the term fascism comes from italian "fasci di combattimento", which translates to "men's fighting associations", which was the term used for Benito Mussolini's followers in italy of the first half of the 20th century. The german nazis were close allies of Mussolini and also adopted that term. Both their economical agendas were more socialist than anything else.

BTW, I am european. If anyone holds the copyright to that term, it's us ::tippinghat::.

during the past century, capitalism has led to an unprecedented era of propsperity worldwide. Many nations have risen from medieval to modern standards in a comparably short time. Look at Southkorea, Japan, China (Taiwan), even Vietnam. Don't miss out on India. It is capitalism  (i.e., the freedom to trade and to accumulate wealth by legal means) that has lead to this. And every time it has was replaced, it was replaced by hell on earth.

regards

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #20 on: Mon May 04, 2020 - 14:32:56 »
It is not socialism that bears the Mark (Rev 16:2) of Catholicism, but American religion.  Protestantism marches in lock-step with the doctrines of the Vatican.

From the Reformation it was not so, but today the churches of American Protestantism draw their religious theory and observance from Papal decrees, NOT the Bible.

and if you remind any of them of their duplicity, they will adamantly deny it.

Of such is the mind of the SINNER so corrupted by those who preach doctrines of demons that they cannot see or admit to the error of their ways.

In America it is Corporatism, or more appropriately Fascism, that holds the reigns of power.   The influence upon American government is secular, not religious.  Minor political groups or religious fanatics within the Republican party call for policy that will never materialize.  Of all those who struggle to have their voices heard, the religious are the weakest and most self-deluded - because they have denied the very God they claim to admire.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Fascism was authoritarian and socialist.  The government owned the means of production.  But you can't seem to comprehend that.

And this is me hollering at the guy in the Choir Loft.

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #21 on: Tue May 05, 2020 - 10:05:50 »
it doesn't get better by repeating it. This subject may not be worth the effort, but anyway: there is no clear definition of fascism, because there is no manifest that describes it. This is different from socialism and communism - both are clearly defined in the "communist manifest" written by Karl Marx. It is that book that mentions socialism as the precursor of true communism.

Whoever you may quote - whether they bear nobel prices or not is meaningless to me - still any history book will tell you that the term fascism comes from italian "fasci di combattimento", which translates to "men's fighting associations", which was the term used for Benito Mussolini's followers in italy of the first half of the 20th century. The german nazis were close allies of Mussolini and also adopted that term. Both their economical agendas were more socialist than anything else.

BTW, I am european. If anyone holds the copyright to that term, it's us ::tippinghat::.

during the past century, capitalism has led to an unprecedented era of propsperity worldwide. Many nations have risen from medieval to modern standards in a comparably short time. Look at Southkorea, Japan, China (Taiwan), even Vietnam. Don't miss out on India. It is capitalism  (i.e., the freedom to trade and to accumulate wealth by legal means) that has lead to this. And every time it has was replaced, it was replaced by hell on earth.

regards

If you are European then you must be aware in some way that America came onto your continent from the west to destroy German/Italian fascist totalitarianism.  The Red Army came in from the east to pummel it to the ground. 

Since Europeans supported fascism and worked to mask its true goals, I don't believe any of your people have the right to ignore the definitions of history (as you did prior to WWII and who continue to do so).  Facts of history are facts and those that know definitions use them as a guide to predict trends.  Those that deliberately ignore them or sweep their consequences under the carpet are by definition - children of appeasement. 

Fascism wears many hats and disguises.  Not all are bent upon global conquest as Germany once did or as America now pursues.   

In Spain, fascism arose prior to WWII and survived the conflict by many years.
Central and South America have been the seat of many fascist governments, most of which were created or sponsored by the United States.  (It's easier to manipulate a dictator than a parliament.)
Viet Nam prior to Communist liberation was a republic in name only.   For many years it was ruled by Thieu, the dictatorial head of a military junta.  Fascist in nature, the nation was a vassal state of the US until the war became untenable.
In the Middle East, Iran was ruled by the ruthless fascist dictator Shah Palavi who in turn was put in power by the CIA in the early 1950's (a classic maneuver of which the agency is proud).

Not all fascists follow the German/Italian model of the 1930's.   

Imperial Japan of the 1930's certainly didn't.  German fascism was ruled by a civilian organization.  Japanese fascism was ruled by the military.  Not all fascists are the same.

Many political experts within and outside of the United States now believe America is a fascist state by almost any definition one may wish to apply.

The fact that certain people choose to ignore trends and definitions changes nothing.  It only alters their own perception of reality into the rose colored version that makes them happy (for a time).

Finally, the subject IS worth the effort if only to make some readers aware of the danger that surrounds them and to help them understand what is happening to them and their country.

I love my country, but I hate its government.  It is altogether corrupt and it is ruining the future of our children and the future of those who are our neighbors (whether they want to understand it or not).

It has been said that if one wants to go crazy, then one should move to Washington, DC where it will not be noticed.

What's all this to do with Jesus Christ?   Go out onto any American street and try to organize a prayer vigil or mention the name of Jesus in most businesses or corporate offices.  You WILL meet opposition and quite possibly ostracism.   American is not the country it used to be, not by a long shot.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft..
« Last Edit: Tue May 05, 2020 - 10:32:25 by Choir Loft »

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #22 on: Tue May 05, 2020 - 10:17:27 »
Fascism was authoritarian and socialist.  The government owned the means of production.  But you can't seem to comprehend that.

And this is me hollering at the guy in the Choir Loft.

I'm afraid you've got your definitions backwards my misinformed friend. 

MY PURPOSE here is to demonstrate political definitions and their modern applications.  Without knowledge or vision a people perish, which is why American tradition died a long time ago.  The USA is not the nation it once was.  To understand what happened, one must become familiar with commonly understood definitions.

The political spectrum is not a hard and fast rule.  At its extremes we have Communism on the political left and Fascism on the political right.  Where did the political terms left and right originate?  Since you are an expert, do you know?  Please inform us if you do.

On the extreme left, totalitarian Communist governments own and operate all production distribution and real estate.  The government also manages services such as healthcare.

On the extreme right, totalitarian Fascism is supported by corporations.  In the fascist state, production and distribution of products are owned privately as well as real estate.  Public services may or may not fall under its purview.

There are variations of the extremes of both Communism and Fascism.  Both grew out of the rise of industrialization, which destroyed the centuries old agrarian system enjoyed throughout all history.  Each system attempts to organize the engines of industry and the economy it has created.  Each is terribly flawed with regard to its treatment of those who create wealth in the first place - the workers.

In modern China, a form of capitalism has been embraced.   In America, a form of fascism has been embraced.

It should be understood that from a propagandistic point of view any suggestion of capitalism is considered traitorous in a Communist society.  Why?  Because it opposes government control.
Any suggestion of socialist policy is considered traitorous in a Capitalist society.  Why?  Because it opposes corporate control.

Most industrialized nations have found a way to embrace a bit of both and still call themselves socialist or capitalist. 

God has no place in either system.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft..
« Last Edit: Tue May 05, 2020 - 10:24:56 by Choir Loft »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #23 on: Tue May 05, 2020 - 11:10:07 »
Communism, Progressivism, Socialism, Fascism and Nazism are all variants of the same Statist ideology.  They are all politico-economic philosophies of the state over the individual.  They are all at the other end of the spectrum from capitalism which is fundamentally the individual over the state and is the basis upon which the United States of America was founded.

There is no such thing as Christian Socialism.
« Last Edit: Tue May 05, 2020 - 13:25:02 by 4WD »

Offline retiro

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #24 on: Tue May 05, 2020 - 14:52:05 »
Quote
I love my country, but I hate its government.  It is altogether corrupt and it is ruining the future of our children and the future of those who are our neighbors (whether they want to understand it or not).
so, to sum this up: you despise every government, and you call everything you despise fascist. IMO, That makes for a rather undifferentiated and non-constructive approach.

I have described the historical and etymological roots of the term fascism. Beyond that, it was adopted by the left as a battle slogan to describe everything that was not on their side. Your application of the term reminds me of that.

However at the end of the day, apart from the definition thingie, I may even agree with you. This very moment we are facing the attempt of a world wide coup d'etat driven by a band of oligarchs and their minions in politics. A few weeks ago I thought you americans were better off than us because Trump seemed to be breaking out of the clinch of the deep state and doing things on behalf of the average people. But now he (and Pence, the "christian") are helping to ruin the country and prepare it for takeover. I am glad I didn't spend my money on an american green card but rather bought me a little hideaway in southern europe. Admitted, there is no safe haven anywhere in times like these, but this seems like a good place to prepare for an ensuing (spiritual) reconquista
« Last Edit: Tue May 05, 2020 - 14:54:37 by retiro »

Offline Amo

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Re: Christian Socialism
« Reply #25 on: Fri May 08, 2020 - 11:49:19 »
It is not socialism that bears the Mark (Rev 16:2) of Catholicism, but American religion.  Protestantism marches in lock-step with the doctrines of the Vatican.

From the Reformation it was not so, but today the churches of American Protestantism draw their religious theory and observance from Papal decrees, NOT the Bible.

and if you remind any of them of their duplicity, they will adamantly deny it.

Of such is the mind of the SINNER so corrupted by those who preach doctrines of demons that they cannot see or admit to the error of their ways.

In America it is Corporatism, or more appropriately Fascism, that holds the reigns of power.   The influence upon American government is secular, not religious.  Minor political groups or religious fanatics within the Republican party call for policy that will never materialize.  Of all those who struggle to have their voices heard, the religious are the weakest and most self-deluded - because they have denied the very God they claim to admire.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

You are correct that "Protestantism" of today ever increasingly resembles and unites with  Catholicism. Some of the influence upon American government is secular, and Corporations do have more power than they should as well. You are dead wrong though, in denying Rome's power and influence within this nation. The secret of Babylon's power in this world is her ability to absorb the cause, power, and influence of others to her own benefit. She rose to power the first time by amalgamating the power and influence of apostate "Christianity", paganism, and the politics and economics of the day. Her calls for the unity of humanity today are all about similar amalgamation unto the same end on a global scale. Secularists, religions, politicians, scientists, and corporations are all being called upon by her to unite in fulfilling her mission which includes and incorporates their's as well. The only thing that will not be tolerated in the end is true biblical Christianity. You simply deny prophetic biblical testimony concerning the same.

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. 7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. 15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. 9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, 10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. 11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. 14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. 15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. 20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. 21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; 23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.


The kings or rulers, and great men, and merchants, and musicians, and shipmasters, and companies of ships, and sailors, and craftsmen of all crafts, and all the inhabitants of the world will weep and wail over the destruction of Babylon because they all served her and or became rich through her. Do not be deceived, all but those truly in Christ alone, will serve the beast which BABYLON THE GREAT rides. She is none other that the city which is literally and spiritually the See of Rome who entertains ambassadors from the world over, and continually seeks to unify humanity unto global religion, governance, and economy. Nevertheless, while you claim others deny the founding fathers of Protestantism, do you not deny their declaration of the Pope as antichrist, and Catholicism as Babylon the Great? Are you not denying such right here right now? Yes you are. Please do correct me if I am wrong.


 

     
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