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Offline admin

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Communism vs. Christianity
« on: Fri Aug 31, 2007 - 10:41:19 »
This topic originally branched from another topic that led to discussion of communism and Christianity. The post that began the change in topic asked why anyone would want a person in office who would implement socialistic/communistic policies. The new topic is in progress below.

Who would want a demoncrat in office anyway?

Those who want a communist/socialist government that robs us of our income in order to fund the growth and control of the government over our lives. Most people who think they want that don't realize that's what it is, they just think that the government should be the ONE to provide everything for them as if they are children. What they don't realize is that this takes away freedom and leaves them at the mercy of the government. And thus we go back in time to the days of controlling kings, dictators and other life controlling forms of government that demand the peasants thank them for "taking care" of them. Remember Robin Hood fighting against the king for "taxing the heart and soul out of England"? Yeah...that kind of thing.

Others want the government to control everything because they think that just because it's got the "government" stamp on it means it will be great. You know...like those other great government programs.

 ::aloneinclearlogic::

It kind of reminds me of when Israel thought they wanted a king like all the other countries. God said it was a bad idea, but Israel wanted to be like all those other "modern" countries. Sounds just like today when our people say that Canada, Europe...whatever has government-run healthcare and are adding to the "government-run" list every day. And "it's just so wonderful."

Sounds again like the Israelites wanting to go back to Egypt and settle for much less quality of life because "at least there they had something to eat" you know....while they were slaves to the Egyptian government that was "taking care" of them.

I think it's funny when people talk about Cuba and how wonderful it is because the government controls....uh...I mean....funds everything. And yet Cubans risk their lives by floating on an old door across the ocean to get here. Why would they do that? After all, communist Cuba is just so freakin' awesome! Michael Moore tells us so.

Don't fall for it. The more aspects of our lives controlled by any government, the less freedom we have.
« Last Edit: Tue May 27, 2008 - 15:47:06 by admin »

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Communism vs. Christianity
« on: Fri Aug 31, 2007 - 10:41:19 »

navyvet

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Communism and Christianity
« Reply #1 on: Fri Aug 31, 2007 - 15:18:17 »
Who would want a demoncrat in office anyway?

Those who want a communist/socialist government that robs us of our income in order to fund the growth and control of the government over our lives.
This reminds me of my favorite Mitchell Trio song:

Oh, we're meetin' at the courthouse at eight o'clock tonight
You just walk in the door and take the first turn to the right
Be careful when you get there, we hate to be bereft
But we're taking down the names of everybody turning left

Oh, we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Here to save our country from a communistic plot
Join the John Birch Society, help us fill the ranks
To get this movement started we need lots of tools and cranks

Now there's no one that we're certain the Kremlin doesn't touch
We think that Westbrook Pegler doth protest a bit too much
We only hail the hero from whom we got our name
We're not sure what he did but he's our hero just the same

Oh, we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Socialism is the ism dismalest of all
Join the John Birch Society, there's so much to do
Have you heard they're serving vodka at the WCTU?

Well you've heard about the agents that we've already named
Well MPA has agents that are flauntedly unashamed
We're after Rosie Clooney, we've gotten Pinkie Lee
And the day we get Red Skelton won't that be a victory

Oh we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Norman Vincent Peale may think he's kidding us along
But the John Birch Society knows he spilled the beans
He keeps on preaching brotherhood, but we know what he means

We'll teach you how to spot 'em in the cities or the sticks
For even Jasper Junction is just full of Bolsheviks
The CIA's subversive and so's the FCC
There's no one left but thee and we, and we're not sure of thee

Oh, we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Here to save our country from a communistic plot
Join the John Birch Society holding off the Reds
We'll use our hand and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads

Do you want Justice Warren for your Commissar?
Do you want Mrs. Krushchev in there with the DAR?
You cannot trust your neighbor or even next of kin
If mommie is a commie then you gotta turn her in

Oh, we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Fighting for the right to fight the right fight for the Right
Join the John Birch Society as we're marching on
And we'll all be glad to see you when we're meeting in the John
The John, the John Birch So- ci- i- teee
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 10:41:01 by admin »

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Communism and Christianity
« Reply #1 on: Fri Aug 31, 2007 - 15:18:17 »

Offline don has a plan

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RE: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #2 on: Fri Aug 31, 2007 - 15:37:24 »
The Communist paranoia on this board is frightening.  Goodness -- It's 2007.  Communist paranoia ended before the Cold War did. 

This reminds me of the evolution discussions on one of the other boards. 
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 10:41:24 by admin »

Offline admin

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RE: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #3 on: Fri Aug 31, 2007 - 16:50:35 »
The Communist paranoia on this board is frightening.  Goodness -- It's 2007.  Communist paranoia ended before the Cold War did. 

This reminds me of the evolution discussions on one of the other boards. 

First of all, how can you say "The Communist paranoia on this board is frightening"? Why "frightening." You could have said silly or extreme but what about the fact that lots of people don't want communism frightens you? I wash my hands with antibacterial soap, does that mean I'm paranoid of bacteria? I don't mean to frighten you or anything. I'm just trying to prevent bacteria from invading my body and taking over. The same thing applies to my caution when it comes to socialistic/communistic candidates for President.

You can say we're paranoid all you want, but that doesn't take away from the fact that our government marches toward it as more and more of tax dollars are being spent on new government programs. And then Democrats want to raise taxes to pay for more government programs. Before you know it, the government will be in complete control of money and will control even more of our lives. There's nothing paranoid about not wanting to march toward that and not wanting to elect candidates who support that. The way to prevent communism is to prevent pro-communism/socialistic candidates from being elected so that they can't put communist/socialist policies in place. The time to act is BEFORE not AFTER.

That's not being paranoid. Would it have been paranoid to speak out against Stalin or Marx before they gained power? No, it would have saved a lot of people from a life-sucking communist government.

Communism takes control by convincing the people that the government can solve all their problems and take care of them. Once convinced of that, the people will hand over power and money to the government. I'd rather seem paranoid than allow that to happen. And what's scary is that many people are convinced the government should act as a communist one based on what they want the government to do and control....until you explain to them that that is communism and holds people back, takes away freedom and allows for dictatorship, control, etc.  I'm not being paranoid. I'm a concerned citizen who doesn't want a socialist/communist government. You're welcome.
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 10:41:46 by admin »

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RE: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #3 on: Fri Aug 31, 2007 - 16:50:35 »
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Offline kanham

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RE: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #4 on: Sun Sep 02, 2007 - 08:38:27 »
Unless something has changed communism is not the enemy and health care isn't the problem, Satan is.

If communism is so evil and such a harsh thing for Christians to allow why is the church growing in a communist country?

Yes, Israel wanted to be governed by man, doesn't seem to me to be any different then the church wanting to be governed by Republicans.

The other myth I see perpetuated on this thread is the idea that Republicans are for smaller government. It would seem they love to spend just as much, they just prefer to cut taxes and spend.

In the end it would seem to me that the only difference between either party is who gets the money when they are in power. 
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 10:42:17 by admin »

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RE: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #4 on: Sun Sep 02, 2007 - 08:38:27 »



Offline jb728b

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RE: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #5 on: Sun Sep 02, 2007 - 08:52:22 »
Any political system will work (communism, socialism, democracy, empire dictatorship) as long as there are good leaders who put the people needs first.

The problem is that the leaders are not good and the people needs take a back seat to personal power and glory.

I vote republican because their agenda takes into consideration people like me.  The demon-crates have nothing to offer people like me.

I am not a minority
I am not a homosexual
I am against abortion
I believe in the freedom of religion
I believe in the right to keep and bear arms
I understand that diplomacy prevents war it doesn't win war.

The demon-crates have nothing to offer so why vote for them?
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 10:42:34 by admin »

Offline Jaime

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RE: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #6 on: Sun Sep 02, 2007 - 12:17:28 »

If communism is so evil and such a harsh thing for Christians to allow why is the church growing in a communist country?


Communism IS an evil and harsh thing, and Christianity is flourishing in Communist China not because Communism is so tolerant or wonderful but because the Gospel is so powerful and succeeds in spite of an evil regime. Has nothing to do WITH Communism, but everything to do WITH the GOSPEL AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 10:42:53 by admin »

k-pappy

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RE: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #7 on: Sun Sep 02, 2007 - 18:37:37 »
I'm with Jaime, here.  Communist governments persecute Christians.   Fortunately, the gospel prospers under persecution.  As things get worse there in the states, it will hopefully prosper more.

KP
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 10:43:12 by admin »

Offline admin

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RE: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #8 on: Sun Sep 02, 2007 - 21:24:03 »
The reason that communism has been harsh to Christianity is because a communist government must prevent as much free thinking and global communication as possible. Take the former communist part of Germany. They weren't allowed to see the free side of Germany. Weren't allowed to go over there or their government would punish them. Why? Because they'd see the potential of a free people. In a documentary I heard a German man say that if someone did go to the free side of Germany (on the other side of the wall) and came back that he would be miserable because he would realize what he was missing.

Yes, we all know Satan is the problem. That doesn't mean that we stop arresting criminals and blame it all on Satan. Just like it doesn't mean that we just have a "whatever" attitude when it comes to government.

Communism is usually intolerant of all religion--period. That means Christianity, Buddism, Islam, you name it.  A communist government has to have the people looking at them as a god. After all, a communist government basically decides what people do in terms of career, in terms of where they live and how much money they "live on." Throwing a "god" in there places them at number two in place of authority and prominence in a citizens life and might lead to a rebelion.

And before the arguments start popping in about the early church and how they shared everything thus, they were communistic...a few observations.

1. It's funny to me that usually the ones who bring that up are the very ones who don't want any religion in government. Yet they act as though what the early church did should be an example of how our government is run.

2. The early church was not communistic. People still had their jobs and CHOSE to give their money. They retained that right. No government or church leader forced them to do anything. THEY were free and held the authority over what they did with their money and they wanted to give it to the church. That would most certainly NOT BE ALLOWED by a communist government--yet another thing that starves religion out. The Bible says that the early church gave money to Paul and other teachers so that they could go out into the world and teach. Illegal in a communist government.

My final thought is this. China has been adding elements of free-market (a.k.a. Capitalism) into their country for years. More and more. Why? Because it works. It leads to better products because people are motivated to make their lives better or great by inventing, building, producing or doing something that people want and need. It's freedom and it works because people are free to follow their passions without the government getting in the way. Our founding fathers wanted us to be free and I'm always shocked at people who discuss this and act as though it wouldn't bother them if suddenly America became a communist nation. They just don't know what they are saying and don't realize that they would lose the very right to even talk about the "form" of government in this country. They don't realize that they would lose the "pursuit of happiness" because their career and most of their life would be decided for them by an almighty government that has absolute power without any say so of the people. If you didn't like a leader you couldn't vote him out or vote someone else in. In a communist government, you have no say so and no representation. And religion would be outlawed as history has shown and even to this day communist countries by large outlaw all religion (unless it happens to be the leader's) because of the points mentioned above.

Cherish freedom as a gift and be watchful of politicians who tell you that if you just give them more money the could take better care of you. That's how it starts and all of a sudden when the people realize their money is mostly ALL in the hands of the government, the government is at a point of no return and has no plans of telling you that they've fixed the "problems" and now you can start keeping more of your money again. No...then they start telling you that they are the hand that feeds you and if you want to eat this month you'd better not question them.

But it all starts small and I think we'd be responsible stewards of our nation and countrymen if we were watchful, cautious and protective of our freedom.
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 10:43:29 by admin »

Offline kanham

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Communism and Christianity
« Reply #9 on: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 09:39:51 »
I think if I’m not mistaken the idea was that we defend Christ not capitalism, maybe I’ve got that one wrong.

“Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 10:43:51 by admin »

Offline admin

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Communism and Christianity
« Reply #10 on: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 10:01:21 »
Oh give me a break. Talk about a red herring! If we were talking about a football team and you were defending one team as being better than another, I guess I could say, "I think if I’m not mistaken the idea was that we defend Christ not a football team, maybe I’ve got that one wrong."

 ::sarcasm::

The fact is that we can talk about all kinds of different topics. Sports, cars, plants, politics, relationships, music, video games, movies and if you started to talk good about one I could get onto you for not praising Christ instead. God made us with the capacity to enjoy life and to reason and think. There's nothing wrong with prefferring a form of government over another and I happen to prefer the kind where I'm free. It shocks me to think that anyone would want it another way seeing as how people from communists countries float across the ocean on old doors and driftwood just to come here--to the land of opportunity--and escape their communist oppressor.

Capitalism is simply a free market where people are FREE to choose their own financial paths and to buy what they want. Sure some people get rich at it. Many used to be dirt poor and worked their way into riches. It's sinful for you to covet what they have.

Are you saying you want communism in America?

Secondly, please stop saying that it's "Satan that's the problem" or that we should be better Christians by blah, blah, blah. That's like someone walking into your house with a weapon and telling you to hand over all your money and your children and then telling you that you ought to be more faithful to God and realize that these things don't matter and that Satan is the real problem--not them. So just hand it over and quit whining.

This is a discussion forum. We talk about all kinds of different things and some of those things require more than a "Satan is the problem answer" or "Jesus" as the answer. Jesus is the answer to many, many things, but some topics--like who is going to win the game Saturday--do not have Him as the answer to that particular question. And unless you want to give up all hobbies, thoughts, discussion and possessions that don't directly discuss God at that moment, then please stop trying to act like I'm less spiritual because I'm having a discussion about government (or anything else for that matter).
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 10:44:05 by admin »

Offline Bon Voyage

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Communism and Christianity
« Reply #11 on: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 10:03:29 »
Oh give me a break. Talk about a red herring! If we were talking about a football team and you were defending one team as being better than another, I guess I could say, "I think if I’m not mistaken the idea was that we defend Christ not a football team, maybe I’ve got that one wrong."

::rollseyes::

The fact is that we can talk about all kinds of different topics. Sports, cars, plants, politics, relationships, music, video games, movies and if you started to talk good about one I could get onto you for not praising Christ instead. God made us with the capacity to enjoy life and to reason and think. There's nothing wrong with prefferring a form of government over another and I happen to prefer the kind where I'm free. It shocks me to think that anyone would want it another way seeing as how people from communists countries float across the ocean on old doors and driftwood just to come here--to the land of opportunity--and escape their communist oppressor.

Capitalism is simply a free market where people are FREE to choose their own financial paths and to buy what they want. Sure some people get rich at it. Many used to be dirt poor and worked their way into riches. It's sinful for you to covet what they have.

Are you saying you want communism in America?

I don't want it, but it may be good for the church.  The church seems to flourish under persecution.
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 10:44:22 by admin »

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Communism and Christianity
« Reply #12 on: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 10:06:29 »
Gary,

The church still has the strongest presence in America that it has ever had anywhere in history. It might be in decline now, but if you just want sheer numbers, the church has thrived under freedom. We are the reason it is in decline now--mostly because we are trying to become a socialist government and take God/religion out of everything. And we are so obsessed with being politically correct (another socialist trait) that we don't attempt to lead others to Jesus (at least not like Christians used to) because we're afraid of appearing judgmental and politically incorrect  (ah, that government control thing has already seeped in).

As Jaime said, Christianity has done fairly well in spite of communism and oppressive governments, the oppressive government doesn't cause Christianity to do well. Again, I'd point you to the number of Christians in America versus communist countries. The message of Christ is able to work in any kind of government/society, but if it was made illegal and the opportunities to reach people were taken away from us by a government, obviously we'd have fewer tools and opportunities to reach the lost. Socialism has nearly wiped Christianity out in Europe and it will do the same thing in America if we allow it.

Sure, Christianity is making strides in China, but because it is illegal, there are millions of people who are NOT hearing the gospel message that could be if the people were free. So lets not kid ourselves or try to spin the idea that somehow communism would help Christianity.
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 10:44:37 by admin »

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #13 on: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 10:43:09 »
The Apostle Paul was all too familiar with persecution.  This was his advice to the young church...

"I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone--for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."  I Tim. 2:1-4, NIV

(And, btw, I've worked in barely-out-of-Communism former Soviet Union [1995-97] and I can tell you that communism did them no favors.  While there were underground churches during the 70 year stint, Christianity spread most after communism ended, not during.)

Offline spurly

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #14 on: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 11:00:10 »
In my humble opinion the church in America might benefit from more persecution being directed against us.  Those who are lukewarm or hanging on to the coattails of the church for the wrong reason would leave and then the only ones left would be the true believers who would then be able to grow more deeply, produce more fruit without dealing with the problems of those with wrong motives, and cooperate with Christ in his mission more fully realizing that we won't always have an opportunity to spread the story of the glory of Jesus Christ.

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #15 on: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 11:19:53 »
Sometimes he just yanks the candlestick in those situations.

Offline kanham

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #16 on: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 13:00:16 »
Who is using a red herring?

Can you point me to the person claiming their a football team makes the world a better place? Is the only right way and is far superior to any other? If you can point me to the post that explains how The Crimson Tide makes being a Christian easier or better or right I would love to read it and the responses that follow.

If you have done anything you have made my point for me. The absurdity of claiming a football team makes things better runs along the same lines as saying capitalism does.

Let’s all go to Fiji and see the benefits of capitalism where we ship out their water so American’s can drink something in a plastic bottle that by the way comes from a faucet already from a country where the majority of inhabitants don’t have drinkable water.  Three cheers for capitalism.
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 13:30:49 by kanham »

Offline kanham

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #17 on: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 13:35:14 »
The church still has the strongest presence in America that it has ever had anywhere in history. It might be in decline now, but if you just want sheer numbers, the church has thrived under freedom.

 I'm not sure this is really true. Number of buildings may mean something but not necessarily.

I would recommend checking statistics for the megachurches in America. Find out how many preach the prosperity gospel. Then check how many use new age religion of the power of positive thinking dressed in Christ and then do the math.

Personally for me health and wealth is not the focus of scripture but some may disagree.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #18 on: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 16:29:42 »
The church still has the strongest presence in America that it has ever had anywhere in history. It might be in decline now, but if you just want sheer numbers, the church has thrived under freedom.

 I'm not sure this is really true. Number of buildings may mean something but not necessarily.

I would recommend checking statistics for the megachurches in America. Find out how many preach the prosperity gospel. Then check how many use new age religion of the power of positive thinking dressed in Christ and then do the math.

Personally for me health and wealth is not the focus of scripture but some may disagree.


I wonder how much Matthew 7:21-23 fits in America and even right in the congregation I call home.

Offline admin

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #19 on: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 19:24:46 »
Spurly,

I understand what you are saying and why you are saying it. It's a trendy thing to say nowdays. I'm not saying that you said it for that reason. But the church in Europe has basically been whiped out because of socialism and "politically correct" persecution. We should learn from that. Persecution most certainly doesn't guarantee the furthering of the gospel. In my opinion, it usually brings about the opposite. You are assuming that the persecution would still allow Christians to meet together or would allow us to spread the gospel at all.

Where I live, the local school boards, led mostly by a person who privately said the following to another board member--"I don't like all those 'non-denominational churches meeting in schools"--tried to pass a law that churches could no longer meet in schools. That law was watered down to only say that churches could not use school class rooms and that law has passed. It will hurt many churches and it's not fair because the law states that any tax payer group has access to school buildings assuming it complies with certain guidelines. As it stands, any tax-paying group that isn't breaking a law and makes the appropriate requests can use the rooms in school buildings after hours--except for churches. That's just simply prejudiced.

Freedom doesn't hurt the church. People hurt the church. We should never be suckered into inviting persecution. Paul stood up for himself many times because he was a citizen of Rome and therefore entitled to a trial and could not be whipped etc. He didn't invite persecution or government descrimination and even fought it.

But what I said earlier I think is accurate. We need more freedom to reach people with the gospel. Not less.

the J Man

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #20 on: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 19:39:09 »




Secondly, please stop saying that it's "Satan that's the problem" or that we should be better Christians by blah, blah, blah. That's like someone walking into your house with a weapon and telling you to hand over all your money and your children and then telling you that you ought to be more faithful to God and realize that these things don't matter and that Satan is the real problem--not them. So just hand it over and quit whining.

Actually, for him to mention Satan as the problem, then he should realize that we should not just sit back and take it. We are not to just sit back and take what the devil throws at us. Jesus took authority over demons, so did the apostles. Communism is a diabolical scheme to get control over people and enslave them to the system. That is why communist governments hate chrsitianity. because christianity is about getting people set free from the oppressor(which is Satan). Jesus said He came to set the captives free(Luke4:18). 2nd Corinthians3:17 says that wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. That is a threat to a communist government who really is being controlled by Satan. 2nd Corinthians4:4 mentions how Satan is the god of this world(meaning the worldly system). Communism is exactly that. Satan is in control of it. That is why the communist government expects you to look at them as god. It is really a form of slavery. You do what your told or else. They control you. They basically run your life. The sad thing is, those who are running the government(not just the democrats either) are involved in it.

I goota say though, very good posts! You really are aware of what is going on.

« Last Edit: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 19:45:11 by the J Man »

Offline kanham

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #21 on: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 20:29:03 »
Quote
But the church in Europe has basically been whiped out because of socialism and "politically correct" persecution.

Could I get more information on this, some articles that point out this is what happened with the European church? I have read where amoral and corrupt clergy impacted the church in Europe. I have read where their involvement in business and government led to their downfall but I had not read that it was socialism and political correctness that hurt them.

If I have misunderstood I would appreciate the reading.

Thanks.




Offline kanham

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #22 on: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 20:32:17 »
Actually, for him to mention Satan as the problem, then he should realize that we should not just sit back and take it. We are not to just sit back and take what the devil throws at us. Jesus took authority over demons, so did the apostles.

Am I the him in this statement?

I would love to discuss what we see to be an appropriate solution and response for believers today but it seems your assumption is that if one disagrees or reminds all that the enemy is Satan that this means we sit on our hands? I'm not sure how one connects those dots, maybe I need to reread what I have said because I may have not been clear.

marc

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #23 on: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 20:37:45 »
I think the problem with the church in Europe is that they're in Europe, and every society has it's own problems and tempations.  I don't thnk ours and theirs are the same.  Their old society, old structures, old churches aren't duplicated here.

istm that the greatest enemy of the church in America is materialism.  Too many churches are willing to compromise and appease the affluent.

There are a number, however, who do go among the poor and show the face of Christ to those in their community.  I thank God for these churches and pray for more of us to become like them.  When I look at the church I'm a part of I see some of this, but I see more self-centeredness.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #24 on: Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 21:53:40 »
I think the problem with the church in Europe is that they're in Europe, and every society has it's own problems and tempations.  I don't thnk ours and theirs are the same.  Their old society, old structures, old churches aren't duplicated here.

istm that the greatest enemy of the church in America is materialism.  Too many churches are willing to compromise and appease the affluent.

There are a number, however, who do go among the poor and show the face of Christ to those in their community.  I thank God for these churches and pray for more of us to become like them.  When I look at the church I'm a part of I see some of this, but I see more self-centeredness.

I would probably say it is American Individualism, of which materialism is a manifestation.

Offline don has a plan

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #25 on: Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 10:37:14 »
The problem in Europe, quite frankly, appears to be that Christianity has run its course there.  Religions eventually go away, leaving only a remnant following.  Read about the great religions of eons past in your history books; where have those religions gone? 

In the next few centuries, Christianity will probably be in the same situation here in North America. 

navyvet

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #26 on: Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 10:47:42 »
The problem in Europe, quite frankly, appears to be that Christianity has run its course there.  Religions eventually go away, leaving only a remnant following.  Read about the great religions of eons past in your history books; where have those religions gone? 

In the next few centuries, Christianity will probably be in the same situation here in North America.

What the history of religion in Europe shows, as elsewhere, is that religion becomes moribund as it becomes distinct from the faith giving rise to the religion, especially when the religion demands gatekeeping status and the power to coerce. The Reformation is one demonstration of the power of faith to overturn the demands of religion, and various forms of the same make themselves manifest from time to time. There is a cycle for these things, and we're just entering another turn of the wheel.

What is happening in the United States is that certain segments of right-wing religion, whether Protestant, Catholic, of even Jewish, having had a 20-year run or so of trying to leverage religious identity into political power and with some degree of success, are waning in influence. For our society, that's a good thing.

Don't confuse religious power with the power of faith. Thgy're not the same, nor will they ever be the same.

CSloan

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #27 on: Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 10:50:20 »
Communism is the vehicle for the Globalists and the New World Order.

Offline janine

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #28 on: Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 10:54:27 »
Admin, I was not aware that a church would be considered a tax-paying community group.

If that's the basis in the situation you detailed, that it was ruled that only tax-paying groups should be allowed to rent or reserve school facilities for meetings, then churches should be left out.

But then so should any other non-profit group (ACLU, Planned Parenthood, etc.).

Offline don has a plan

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #29 on: Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 12:20:49 »
Quote
Communism is the vehicle for the Globalists and the New World Order.

Actually, capitalism has been the driving force behind globalization.

CSloan

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #30 on: Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 12:55:40 »
Quote
Communism is the vehicle for the Globalists and the New World Order.

Actually, capitalism has been the driving force behind globalization.

Very true, but in order for there to be a successful one-world government the guidelines of the communist manifesto would have to be followed.

Offline admin

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #31 on: Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 13:31:50 »
Admin, I was not aware that a church would be considered a tax-paying community group.

If that's the basis in the situation you detailed, that it was ruled that only tax-paying groups should be allowed to rent or reserve school facilities for meetings, then churches should be left out.

But then so should any other non-profit group (ACLU, Planned Parenthood, etc.).

Not the group, the people who make up the group. In other words, you and I as taxpayers can meet in a school classroom after school hours with any group we wish (for profit or non) unless it is a Christian church.  At least, that's the law now in Williamson County Tennessee.

Offline don has a plan

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #32 on: Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 13:35:26 »
Quote
Communism is the vehicle for the Globalists and the New World Order.

Actually, capitalism has been the driving force behind globalization.

Very true, but in order for there to be a successful one-world government the guidelines of the communist manifesto would have to be followed.


I don't know anything about that.  Sounds interesting, though.

navyvet

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #33 on: Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 14:15:44 »
Where I live, the local school boards, led mostly by a person who privately said the following to another board member--"I don't like all those 'non-denominational churches meeting in schools"--tried to pass a law that churches could no longer meet in schools. That law was watered down to only say that churches could not use school class rooms and that law has passed. It will hurt many churches and it's not fair because the law states that any tax payer group has access to school buildings assuming it complies with certain guidelines. As it stands, any tax-paying group that isn't breaking a law and makes the appropriate requests can use the rooms in school buildings after hours--except for churches. That's just simply prejudiced.


Not sure that's a complete description of what happened at the Williamson Co. School Board meeting in question. Through the miracle of Google, here's the minutes of the issue in question:

(see http://www.wcs.edu/district/sb_minutes/2007/May%2021%202007.pdf)

Quote
MINUTES – Williamson County Board of Education 11
May 21, 2007
Board Attorney Chuck Cagle suggested appropriate language to address the
policy revisions.
Ralph Ringstaff moved to amend the motion per Mr. Cagle’s suggestion that
current users of the facilities will be considered for a maximum of two renewals
of their leases under the terms and conditions of this policy that specifically
includes classroom use or the lack thereof. Pat Anderson seconded the motion.
Barry Watkins called the question.
Janice Mills objected to calling the question.
Ms. Mills asked for clarification regarding the ongoing use of classrooms if the
amendment passes. It was clarified that the amendment would give a 90 day
notice to terminate classroom use for existing leases and no new classroom use
would be approved for future leases or extensions. It was further clarified that the
classroom restriction applied only to classrooms being used by the schools as
classrooms. Vacant classrooms could still be used by the churches.

Chairman Anderson asked for a recommendation from Superintendent Sharber,
who recommended approval of the amendment.
Chairman Anderson called for a roll call vote on the motion.
D’Wayne Greer Yes Sina Miller Yes
Janice Mills Yes Pat Anderson Yes
Ralph Ringstaff Yes Barry Watkins Yes
Ed Bailey Yes Bill Peach Yes
Gary Anderson Yes James Bond No
Terry Leve Yes
Action: Yes, 10; No, 1; Abstain, 0; Motion Carried.
Chairman Anderson asked for a recommendation from Superintendent Sharber on
the amended main motion. Dr. Sharber recommended approval.
Chairman Anderson called for a roll call vote on the amended main motion.
D’Wayne Greer Yes Sina Miller Yes
Janice Mills Yes Pat Anderson Yes
Ralph Ringstaff Yes Barry Watkins Yes
Ed Bailey Yes Bill Peach Yes
Gary Anderson Yes James Bond No
Terry Leve Yes
Action: Yes, 10; No, 1; Abstain, 0; Motion Carried.


Frankly, if I were a teacher there, I wouldn't want my classroom interior disrupted either. Don't see what the problem is. Truth is, the new policy applies to all lessees of WCS property, not just churches wanting to use the facilities. Hard as well to see Williamson Co. as "unfriendly" to religion: it's the wealthiest and most Republican county in Tennessee. Putting a "liberal" label on the county strains credulity.

Offline admin

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #34 on: Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 14:41:55 »
Navyvet,

I don't know what your problem is, but if you lived here you'd know that everyone wants into Williamson County schools. So there are no "vacant" rooms.

Secondly, the main instigator of the bill was quoted by another board member as saying that he didn't like churches meeting in schools. The original bill would not allow churches to use schools for anything. This is just a foot in the door to push that bill again sometime in the future.

Third, we don't "disrupt" classrooms. We merely sit in desks and make sure the room is exactly as we left it--and churches are PAYING rent to the schools to do so!

Fourth, churches in the area were allowed to meet with the board and ask questions and the board clarified that other groups like AA, MAD, etc. were allowed to use the classrooms. It was churches who would not be allowed to do so. So your uninformed statement saying it applied to all lessees of WCS property is inaccurate.

So why don't you quit siding with everyone else but churches/Christianity and just look at the bloomin' facts!? I know you're trying to look all progressive and trendy, but get over yourself and wake up. For Pete's sake, if I said the sky was blue you'd argue with me.

 

     
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