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Author Topic: Communism vs. Christianity  (Read 122960 times)

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Offline Brian Kelley

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #105 on: Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 14:58:02 »
First, be truthful wasn't meant to be offensive.  If I have offended you, I apologize.  I meant only that you (and anyone else who posts) should make sure you're truthful with yourself before posting.

As for Wal-Mart, that was just an example.  I could give many examples of many companies.  Did you not like my example?  I could say Microsoft, Apple, GMC, Time-Warner, or even WorldCom instead if you wish.

Do you own a car or buy clothes or cd's or computers, etc.  If so, are you enabling greed?

Yes and no.  You see no difference between purchasing and investing?  Even so, when purchasing, you buy something not to give back to society, but so that you can cover yourself or eat or drive, etc.  When investing, I don't know anyone who invests simply to help out the poor struggling multimillion dollar corporation, but to help themselves get more money.  It isn't an issue of service.  That was my point.

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #105 on: Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 14:58:02 »

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #106 on: Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 16:19:29 »
You're kidding, right?  There are even mutual funds that are designed specifically to invest in companies that fit your values.  A friend who's a financial planner has a folder of funds specifically for people who only want to support companies with good ethical products and histories (he calls them the Baptist Funds).  Others focus on helping smaller businesses get off the ground, others help developing countries, you can find very specific funds.  Others help small farmers (like FairTrade) so they won't be taken over by big conglomerates. 

It's just not as black and white as you seem to be painting it.  There really are good companies out there, whether you see them or not.  I just find it way too easy to name those that are often in the news and then broad-brush every company on earth as though the evils of one are the evils of all.  All such an approach guarantees is the probability that you'll be pointing the finger of false accusation at some folks.

Perhaps part of the problem is that people are looking at all these worldly systems dominated by people outside of Christ and  ::headscratch:: why they aren't acting Christian.  You can't expect the world to live according to principles they've not bought into.  The system is not really the problem (I'd even say this of others such as communism and socialism).  Again,  ::frustrated:: it's the people.  Even systems designed by God Himself (Israel, for example) were easily corrupted when people made immoral choices.  The only way to see things better is to win more to the way of Christ and repentance.  Outside of that, by changing or fixing systems alone, you're really just painting leaves green and gluing back onto a dead tree.

Unless, of course, you've come up with an incorruptible system.  Others have tried.....and failed because they couldn't exempt their system from the influence and failure of people.  If you've got those solutions, have at it.

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #106 on: Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 16:19:29 »

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #108 on: Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 20:26:40 »
Unless, of course, you've come up with an incorruptible system.  Others have tried.....and failed because they couldn't exempt their system from the influence and failure of people.  If you've got those solutions, have at it.

Exactly! And rulers/governments are made up of imperfect people who could easily be corrupted by power. That's why it's far better NOT to have them decide how much money you get to live on and what you have to do with that money. OR even how much food you get. It's best to keep their hands OFF of as much as possible. It's far better in a free market society like ours where anyone can see a need and meet that need and their compensation has the sky as the limit based on how much time they want to work and effort they want to put into it--MOST of the time. That's far more fair and much less easier to abuse. Just look at all the poor people in America who have become wealthy. Or children who had poor upbringings (like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet) who become wealthy. In a socialist or communist system, you have NO SAY whatsoever concerning your economic status. Certain people get a lot and certain people a little. At least in a free market (capitalist) society you have some say and opportunity to make a good, great or even incredible situation for yourself.

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #108 on: Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 20:26:40 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #109 on: Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 20:32:01 »
George Gilder was right when he said "Greed is an appetite for unneeded and unearned wealth and power.  The truly greedy seek comfort and security first.  They seek goods and clout they have not earned.  Because the best and safest way to gain unearned pay is to get the state to take it from others, greed leads, as by an invisible hand, toward ever more government action - to socialism, not capitalism."

What makes free market capitalism so wonderful?  It is an aristocracy of merit.  To prosper, you must serve.





I don't see ths as being true at all.  To prosper, you must make lucky investment choices.  Investment has no service in it whatsoever.  In fact, one of the main communist principles is a Biblical one:  If you don't work, you don't eat.  That sounds like exactly what you're looking for...

And what makes a good investment choice?  Investing in the company that, according to the market (which can be in the millions or billions, depending on the product or service) gives people the best value.  That is, those who have done the best job serving their fellow man.

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #109 on: Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 20:32:01 »



Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #110 on: Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 20:38:54 »
Unless, of course, you've come up with an incorruptible system.  Others have tried.....and failed because they couldn't exempt their system from the influence and failure of people.  If you've got those solutions, have at it.

Exactly! And rulers/governments are made up of imperfect people who could easily be corrupted by power. That's why it's far better NOT to have them decide how much money you get to live on and what you have to do with that money. OR even how much food you get. It's best to keep their hands OFF of as much as possible. It's far better in a free market society like ours where anyone can see a need and meet that need and their compensation has the sky as the limit based on how much time they want to work and effort they want to put into it--MOST of the time. That's far more fair and much less easier to abuse. Just look at all the poor people in America who have become wealthy. Or children who had poor upbringings (like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet) who become wealthy. In a socialist or communist system, you have NO SAY whatsoever concerning your economic status. Certain people get a lot and certain people a little. At least in a free market (capitalist) society you have some say and opportunity to make a good, great or even incredible situation for yourself.

Yep.  The ONLY economic system compatible with individual liberty is the free market.

Offline Brian Kelley

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #111 on: Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 21:13:36 »
I guess I just don't buy this "Whoever makes the most money must be serving their fellow man the most" philosophy.  I don't see its evidence in the largest scale: in companies that force others to become bankrupt and lose hundreds of jobs, etc.

Also, pure free market with no regulations is what causes outsourcing and cheap child labor.  There has to be some regulations.  Who gets to decide where they stop?

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #112 on: Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 21:23:43 »
I guess I just don't buy this "Whoever makes the most money must be serving their fellow man the most" philosophy.  I don't see its evidence in the largest scale: in companies that force others to become bankrupt and lose hundreds of jobs, etc.

Also, pure free market with no regulations is what causes outsourcing and cheap child labor.  There has to be some regulations.  Who gets to decide where they stop?

I buy it because it's true.  Toyota has done a better job of serving people than Studebaker.  Would your approach be to tax people and give it to Studebaker?  The folks that worked there did lose their jobs, you know. 

And what's wrong with outsourcing?  You do it yourself every time you spend money.  I don't like child labor any more than anyone else, that's why I don't knowlingly buy products made by kids.  So, that's the answer to your question.  Who gets to decide where they stop?  Well, I do, for one, because I won't buy.

Offline Brian Kelley

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #113 on: Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 21:29:51 »
I guess I just don't buy this "Whoever makes the most money must be serving their fellow man the most" philosophy.  I don't see its evidence in the largest scale: in companies that force others to become bankrupt and lose hundreds of jobs, etc.

Also, pure free market with no regulations is what causes outsourcing and cheap child labor.  There has to be some regulations.  Who gets to decide where they stop?

I buy it because it's true.  Toyota has done a better job of serving people than Studebaker.  Would your approach be to tax people and give it to Studebaker?  The folks that worked there did lose their jobs, you know. 

And what's wrong with outsourcing?  You do it yourself every time you spend money.  I don't like child labor any more than anyone else, that's why I don't knowlingly buy products made by kids.  So, that's the answer to your question.  Who gets to decide where they stop?  Well, I do, for one, because I won't buy.


So you alone not buying stuff will stop child labor?  Or it is okay in your conscience because YOU aren't buying the stuff they make?  Overall regulations could shut down the child labor industry or at least give it a lethal blow.

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #114 on: Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 21:45:42 »
I guess I just don't buy this "Whoever makes the most money must be serving their fellow man the most" philosophy.  I don't see its evidence in the largest scale: in companies that force others to become bankrupt and lose hundreds of jobs, etc.

Also, pure free market with no regulations is what causes outsourcing and cheap child labor.  There has to be some regulations.  Who gets to decide where they stop?

I buy it because it's true.  Toyota has done a better job of serving people than Studebaker.  Would your approach be to tax people and give it to Studebaker?  The folks that worked there did lose their jobs, you know. 

And what's wrong with outsourcing?  You do it yourself every time you spend money.  I don't like child labor any more than anyone else, that's why I don't knowlingly buy products made by kids.  So, that's the answer to your question.  Who gets to decide where they stop?  Well, I do, for one, because I won't buy.


So you alone not buying stuff will stop child labor?  Or it is okay in your conscience because YOU aren't buying the stuff they make?  Overall regulations could shut down the child labor industry or at least give it a lethal blow.

I can't stop it all by myself, but I don't have such a lofty view of my own sense of decency that I think I stand alone in this.  However, we need to remember that child labor isn't always a bad thing.  Back when we were a more agrarian society one of the reasons families had lots of kids so they could help dad out in the field.

Offline Brian Kelley

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #115 on: Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 21:59:12 »
not sit in a sweatshop for fourteen hours a day for maybe a nickel an hour if they're lucky, though.

There's a big difference between chores and child labor.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #116 on: Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 22:24:42 »
Brian, not every investment is inherently "Hillary Lucky". Investments that have a high potential for a high return, also have a propensity for a high risk in losing your investment.

In the 70's my parents had a small bank CD that made them about 10 to 12% return. That was an investment with little to no risk. Now a CD returns much less, so to get a reasonable return, more risk has to be taken in the mutual fund market.

In the oil business, about 9 out of 10 wells are dry holes. Depending on the depth drilled here in West Texas, they cost $1,000,000 to $5,000,000 per hole. Only folks with a sense of sadistic adventure have the guts to gamble with those odds. Yes the reward is great, but the risk is suicidal. I'm talking small to medium independents. I'm not talking international oil and gas conglomerates. If it were easy it would be like Eddie Chiles used to say tongue in cheek in his Western Company radio ad, "If you don't have an oil well, get one." I used to work for an individual that lost over a quarter of a billion dollars on two different occasions. I am naive enough to only try and fail once. Point is investment is what makes this country what it is, and why everyone wants to come here. It ain't because we have the greatest government regulatory intrusion in the world, it's because we have the greates economic freedom the world has ever seen.
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 07:41:02 by Jaime »

Offline Brian Kelley

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #117 on: Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 22:28:02 »
Of course investment doesn't always work out.

My point is that investment isn't always service to your fellow man.  In fact, I'd argue that if your goal is to improve yourself, you aren't serving your fellow man at all, but trying to improve yourself.  One cannot serve God and money.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #118 on: Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 22:39:51 »
Investment is not inherently evil Brian. It is simply a tool to be a good steward with one's resources. Lots of people that have done well with their investments are contributing generously to God's work everywhere. I'm as worker class as anyone, but it is naive to believe that rich equals selfish and evil. Yes there are selfish and evil rich people, but selfish and evil are not limited to only those with $200,000 plus incomes. I have several friends at church that are very well off (first generation wealthy) and I stand in awe at their generousity, and humble spirit at who's money it really is.

I have another friend at church that his family owns 120 square miles of ranch land in the area with 600 producing Texaco oil wells. The family has a charitable foundation that gives on the average of $50 million dollars a year to private colleges, hospitals, and other good causes. There is a good chance that the college you attended has a building named after them. This family is mega wealthy, but I guarantee you couldn't pick them out of a crowd if your life depended on it. Very humble people.

Offline Brian Kelley

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #119 on: Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 22:45:32 »
Investment is not inherently evil, but it is also not a service to mankind.  You're not serving if you're main goal is self-improvement.  We can separately discuss whether self-improvement is good or evil, but service to others and self-improvement are two completely different things.

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #120 on: Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 23:54:43 »
Of course investment doesn't always work out.

My point is that investment isn't always service to your fellow man.  In fact, I'd argue that if your goal is to improve yourself, you aren't serving your fellow man at all, but trying to improve yourself.  One cannot serve God and money.

You're right, Brian.  All the assets such as the factories, machinery, equipment, etc that people use to make things and provide services to others just sorta spring into existence on their own and there's really no need for investors.


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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #121 on: Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 00:05:11 »
Investment is not inherently evil, but it is also not a service to mankind.  You're not serving if you're main goal is self-improvement.  We can separately discuss whether self-improvement is good or evil, but service to others and self-improvement are two completely different things.

Bullbutter. 

Investment is inherently a service to mankind.  Rational people only make an investment when the expected returns are acceptable.  They know that they will only be acceptable when they meet with the approval of the eventual customer.

I invested in a rental property this past March.  Did I do it because I was concerned that the renter and her child could be sleeping outside?  No.  I did it in search of a desired return.  Is she paying me rent because she is concerned about my ability to pay my bills?  No.  She is renting because she doesn't want to sleep outside.  The only reason the transaction takes place is because both she and I figure we are both coming out ahead.

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #122 on: Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 06:55:57 »
Investment is not inherently evil, but it is also not a service to mankind.  You're not serving if you're main goal is self-improvement.  We can separately discuss whether self-improvement is good or evil, but service to others and self-improvement are two completely different things.
The same thing that's been gnawing at me throughout this discussion raises its head here again.  You keep impuning motive, as though you've got a window into every man and woman's heart.  You cannot just keep broad-brushing every worker, investor, businessperson, corporation, small business owner, etc. as having greedy, or self-centered-only motivations.  The facts simply don't support such a one-size-fits-all outlook.  See Jaime's example of his friends.  If you want to say, "There are many who are greedy, exploitative, etc." that's one thing.  But you keep talking like it's everyone one, and again, that denies the good that some are doing...which in turn denies the good God is doing through some.  It's an inaccurate and unfair portrayal.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #123 on: Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 07:27:17 »
Brian there is nothing on this planet more "service to mankind" than a good job. Which of course is only put forth because someone decided to invest, except of course for a government job. Therefore investment is very much service oriented to mankind, though most of the time indirectly related, but you can't necessarily separate the two. The country can't exist on totally altruistic enterprise, but all enterprise affects a job. Which is the ultimate welfare program.

In the parable of the talents, Jesus included the part where the master admonished the one talent servant because he did not even put the talent in the bank so he could have interest.
(An investment by the way)

ASV
Mat 25:27  thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the bankers, and at my coming I should have received back mine own with interest.

The Message
Mat 25:27  The least you could have done would have been to invest the sum with the bankers, where at least I would have gotten a little interest.

« Last Edit: Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 08:18:32 by Jaime »

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #124 on: Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 07:31:11 »
Investment is not inherently evil, but it is also not a service to mankind.  You're not serving if you're main goal is self-improvement.  We can separately discuss whether self-improvement is good or evil, but service to others and self-improvement are two completely different things.
The same thing that's been gnawing at me throughout this discussion raises its head here again.  You keep impuning motive, as though you've got a window into every man and woman's heart.  You cannot just keep broad-brushing every worker, investor, businessperson, corporation, small business owner, etc. as having greedy, or self-centered-only motivations.  The facts simply don't support such a one-size-fits-all outlook.  See Jaime's example of his friends.  If you want to say, "There are many who are greedy, exploitative, etc." that's one thing.  But you keep talking like it's everyone one, and again, that denies the good that some are doing...which in turn denies the good God is doing through some.  It's an inaccurate and unfair portrayal.

If you have a good or service I want to buy at a mutually agreed upon price, why would I give a rip what your motive is?

Offline Brian Kelley

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #125 on: Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 12:15:24 »
Jack works for the mob, but he gets these "tokens of service" from the don, so he must be servicing his fellow man right?  How about the expatriate who works for a company in Pakistan gathering intelligence on better ways to construct nuclear weapons.  That's a service to mankind right there, for which he gets lots of tokens of service and doesn't even pay taxes.  If I invest my money in a drug trafficking operation, and I get it back double what I invested because I was able to facilitate bringing many tonnes of cocaine into the US, was I part of a great service to mankind?  It was an investment though!  Investments are pure!  So is all work that gives me money, right?

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #126 on: Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 13:03:36 »
Yeah.  That's what's typical.  And because that happens, all investing is eeeevvvviiiiiilllll.  Straw man.

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #127 on: Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 13:50:34 »
If there is anything worse than Godless Communism, it might be Godless capitalism.

One example might be when, after the Soviet Union fell, there were several unemployed scientists and engineers who had developed their most advanced weapon systems, and saw nothing wrong with offering their services to the highest bidder, whether or not their new employer had criminal or terrorist uses of the technology in mind.

Another example might be seen when, during the Tienanmen Square protests of 1989, workers and students joined in the protests in Shanghai, which, at the time, had been deemed a free enterprize zone in order to attract foreign investment.  As part of the protest, several protesters stood in front of a freight train being prepared to advance, much like more widely seen instance of an individual in Beijing stopping a column of tanks.

However, in this case, the mayor of Shanghai did not see any merit in their cause, and ordered to train to procede, which caused several casualties.

Later, the mayor expressed surprised when several foreign investors were shocked at this action, and were indicating reservations about doing business with such a regime.  His justification was quite simple:  this had nothing to do with politics.  One must simply not tolerate individuals holding up production or transport of goods under a free enterprise system, for whatever reason.

His rationale must have made since; we still by a lot of stuff from China, and the mayor became the Primier of China.

However, it is due to this type moral vacuum that generations of State-sponsored atheism as produced, that is causing some leaders, such as in Russia, to open their doors, even that of  their schools, to the moral concepts found in the Bible.

I can hardly wait to see the results when the younger, State-educated, "values-neutral," capitalists take over in this country. ::frown::

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #128 on: Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 14:00:58 »
Jack works for the mob, but he gets these "tokens of service" from the don, so he must be servicing his fellow man right?  How about the expatriate who works for a company in Pakistan gathering intelligence on better ways to construct nuclear weapons.  That's a service to mankind right there, for which he gets lots of tokens of service and doesn't even pay taxes.  If I invest my money in a drug trafficking operation, and I get it back double what I invested because I was able to facilitate bringing many tonnes of cocaine into the US, was I part of a great service to mankind?  It was an investment though!  Investments are pure!  So is all work that gives me money, right?

The problem isn't with investment.  IT IS WITH PEOPLE!  Investments don't sin, people do.

Offline Brian Kelley

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #129 on: Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 14:07:23 »
Yeah.  That's what's typical.  And because that happens, all investing is eeeevvvviiiiiilllll.  Straw man.
Wow, more words being put in my mouth.

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #130 on: Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 14:10:27 »
Jack works for the mob, but he gets these "tokens of service" from the don, so he must be servicing his fellow man right?  How about the expatriate who works for a company in Pakistan gathering intelligence on better ways to construct nuclear weapons.  That's a service to mankind right there, for which he gets lots of tokens of service and doesn't even pay taxes.  If I invest my money in a drug trafficking operation, and I get it back double what I invested because I was able to facilitate bringing many tonnes of cocaine into the US, was I part of a great service to mankind?  It was an investment though!  Investments are pure!  So is all work that gives me money, right?

The problem isn't with investment.  IT IS WITH PEOPLE!  Investments don't sin, people do.

I've never stated otherwise.  I'm just saying that money is not necessarily a token of service to mankind.  Nor is investing or labor or purchasing.

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #131 on: Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 16:41:58 »
Jack works for the mob, but he gets these "tokens of service" from the don, so he must be servicing his fellow man right?  How about the expatriate who works for a company in Pakistan gathering intelligence on better ways to construct nuclear weapons.  That's a service to mankind right there, for which he gets lots of tokens of service and doesn't even pay taxes.  If I invest my money in a drug trafficking operation, and I get it back double what I invested because I was able to facilitate bringing many tonnes of cocaine into the US, was I part of a great service to mankind?  It was an investment though!  Investments are pure!  So is all work that gives me money, right?

The problem isn't with investment.  IT IS WITH PEOPLE!  Investments don't sin, people do.

I've never stated otherwise.  I'm just saying that money is not necessarily a token of service to mankind.  Nor is investing or labor or purchasing.

Nor is anyone saying it IS necessarily a token of service to mankind. Agreement was enjoyed by all!!

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #132 on: Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 20:06:32 »
If there is anything worse than Godless Communism, it might be Godless capitalism.

One example might be when, after the Soviet Union fell, there were several unemployed scientists and engineers who had developed their most advanced weapon systems, and saw nothing wrong with offering their services to the highest bidder, whether or not their new employer had criminal or terrorist uses of the technology in mind.

Another example might be seen when, during the Tienanmen Square protests of 1989, workers and students joined in the protests in Shanghai, which, at the time, had been deemed a free enterprize zone in order to attract foreign investment.  As part of the protest, several protesters stood in front of a freight train being prepared to advance, much like more widely seen instance of an individual in Beijing stopping a column of tanks.

However, in this case, the mayor of Shanghai did not see any merit in their cause, and ordered to train to procede, which caused several casualties.

Later, the mayor expressed surprised when several foreign investors were shocked at this action, and were indicating reservations about doing business with such a regime.  His justification was quite simple:  this had nothing to do with politics.  One must simply not tolerate individuals holding up production or transport of goods under a free enterprise system, for whatever reason.

His rationale must have made since; we still by a lot of stuff from China, and the mayor became the Primier of China.

However, it is due to this type moral vacuum that generations of State-sponsored atheism as produced, that is causing some leaders, such as in Russia, to open their doors, even that of  their schools, to the moral concepts found in the Bible.

I can hardly wait to see the results when the younger, State-educated, "values-neutral," capitalists take over in this country. ::frown::
And that's the true crux of the matter.  Godless.  And yes, it is scary. 

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #133 on: Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 20:08:21 »
Yeah.  That's what's typical.  And because that happens, all investing is eeeevvvviiiiiilllll.  Straw man.
Wow, more words being put in my mouth.
Nope.  And it's still a straw man argument.

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #134 on: Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 20:19:58 »
Yeah.  That's what's typical.  And because that happens, all investing is eeeevvvviiiiiilllll.  Straw man.
Wow, more words being put in my mouth.
Nope.  And it's still a straw man argument.

I suppose I'm unfamiliar with the term...  why the short phrases and lack of explanation when saying you're not putting words in my mouth?

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #135 on: Thu Nov 29, 2007 - 07:54:29 »
Jack works for the mob, but he gets these "tokens of service" from the don, so he must be servicing his fellow man right?  How about the expatriate who works for a company in Pakistan gathering intelligence on better ways to construct nuclear weapons.  That's a service to mankind right there, for which he gets lots of tokens of service and doesn't even pay taxes.  If I invest my money in a drug trafficking operation, and I get it back double what I invested because I was able to facilitate bringing many tonnes of cocaine into the US, was I part of a great service to mankind?  It was an investment though!  Investments are pure!  So is all work that gives me money, right?

No, work that violates the human right of another, that right being to be free of force and fraud, is not right.

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #136 on: Thu Nov 29, 2007 - 07:59:08 »
Yeah.  That's what's typical.  And because that happens, all investing is eeeevvvviiiiiilllll.  Straw man.

Wow, more words being put in my mouth.
Nope.  And it's still a straw man argument.


I suppose I'm unfamiliar with the term...  why the short phrases and lack of explanation when saying you're not putting words in my mouth?


The Straw Man Argument

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #137 on: Thu Nov 29, 2007 - 08:02:41 »
And it's a straw man because it was an easy set up.  Present the mob and cartel argument because no one's going to argue that it should be defended, thus an easy knock down and win.  Only problem is, the illegal shadow economies were not the discussion, and are outside of our free enterprise system, and not at all relevant to the discussion of investing, since they are not represented on the NYSE, Nasdaq, Nikkei, or in mutual funds, etc.

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #138 on: Thu Nov 29, 2007 - 11:18:52 »
And it's a straw man because it was an easy set up.  Present the mob and cartel argument because no one's going to argue that it should be defended, thus an easy knock down and win.  Only problem is, the illegal shadow economies were not the discussion, and are outside of our free enterprise system, and not at all relevant to the discussion of investing, since they are not represented on the NYSE, Nasdaq, Nikkei, or in mutual funds, etc.
Had you explained this, I might have been able to continue.  But short phrases intended to not let me continue to defend my position aren't any better than your "straw man".  I don't see the investments as being different, but as you do, I'll go to the Wall Street version of investment.  Are there not corrupt companies there?  Have there not been scandals and thefts and illegitimate practices in those companies?  If I invest in the company that produces equipment for performing abortions, am I doing a service to mankind?
It's not a matter of "all investments are good" or "all investing is eeeevvvviiiiiilllll."  I'm trying to point out that NOT all investing is good.  It's not everything or nothing.

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #139 on: Thu Nov 29, 2007 - 11:25:06 »
And it's a straw man because it was an easy set up.  Present the mob and cartel argument because no one's going to argue that it should be defended, thus an easy knock down and win.  Only problem is, the illegal shadow economies were not the discussion, and are outside of our free enterprise system, and not at all relevant to the discussion of investing, since they are not represented on the NYSE, Nasdaq, Nikkei, or in mutual funds, etc.
Had you explained this, I might have been able to continue.  But short phrases intended to not let me continue to defend my position aren't any better than your "straw man".  I don't see the investments as being different, but as you do, I'll go to the Wall Street version of investment.  Are there not corrupt companies there?  Have there not been scandals and thefts and illegitimate practices in those companies?  If I invest in the company that produces equipment for performing abortions, am I doing a service to mankind?
It's not a matter of "all investments are good" or "all investing is eeeevvvviiiiiilllll."  I'm trying to point out that NOT all investing is good.  It's not everything or nothing.

Did anyone say it was?