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Specifics and Interests => Christian Politics Forum => Topic started by: admin on Fri Aug 31, 2007 - 10:41:19

Title: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: admin on Fri Aug 31, 2007 - 10:41:19
This topic originally branched from another topic that led to discussion of communism and Christianity. The post that began the change in topic asked why anyone would want a person in office who would implement socialistic/communistic policies. The new topic is in progress below.

Who would want a demoncrat in office anyway?

Those who want a communist/socialist government that robs us of our income in order to fund the growth and control of the government over our lives. Most people who think they want that don't realize that's what it is, they just think that the government should be the ONE to provide everything for them as if they are children. What they don't realize is that this takes away freedom and leaves them at the mercy of the government. And thus we go back in time to the days of controlling kings, dictators and other life controlling forms of government that demand the peasants thank them for "taking care" of them. Remember Robin Hood fighting against the king for "taxing the heart and soul out of England"? Yeah...that kind of thing.

Others want the government to control everything because they think that just because it's got the "government" stamp on it means it will be great. You know...like those other great government programs.

 ::aloneinclearlogic::

It kind of reminds me of when Israel thought they wanted a king like all the other countries. God said it was a bad idea, but Israel wanted to be like all those other "modern" countries. Sounds just like today when our people say that Canada, Europe...whatever has government-run healthcare and are adding to the "government-run" list every day. And "it's just so wonderful."

Sounds again like the Israelites wanting to go back to Egypt and settle for much less quality of life because "at least there they had something to eat" you know....while they were slaves to the Egyptian government that was "taking care" of them.

I think it's funny when people talk about Cuba and how wonderful it is because the government controls....uh...I mean....funds everything. And yet Cubans risk their lives by floating on an old door across the ocean to get here. Why would they do that? After all, communist Cuba is just so freakin' awesome! Michael Moore tells us so.

Don't fall for it. The more aspects of our lives controlled by any government, the less freedom we have.
Title: Communism and Christianity
Post by: navyvet on Fri Aug 31, 2007 - 15:18:17
Who would want a demoncrat in office anyway?

Those who want a communist/socialist government that robs us of our income in order to fund the growth and control of the government over our lives.
This reminds me of my favorite Mitchell Trio song:

Oh, we're meetin' at the courthouse at eight o'clock tonight
You just walk in the door and take the first turn to the right
Be careful when you get there, we hate to be bereft
But we're taking down the names of everybody turning left

Oh, we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Here to save our country from a communistic plot
Join the John Birch Society, help us fill the ranks
To get this movement started we need lots of tools and cranks

Now there's no one that we're certain the Kremlin doesn't touch
We think that Westbrook Pegler doth protest a bit too much
We only hail the hero from whom we got our name
We're not sure what he did but he's our hero just the same

Oh, we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Socialism is the ism dismalest of all
Join the John Birch Society, there's so much to do
Have you heard they're serving vodka at the WCTU?

Well you've heard about the agents that we've already named
Well MPA has agents that are flauntedly unashamed
We're after Rosie Clooney, we've gotten Pinkie Lee
And the day we get Red Skelton won't that be a victory

Oh we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Norman Vincent Peale may think he's kidding us along
But the John Birch Society knows he spilled the beans
He keeps on preaching brotherhood, but we know what he means

We'll teach you how to spot 'em in the cities or the sticks
For even Jasper Junction is just full of Bolsheviks
The CIA's subversive and so's the FCC
There's no one left but thee and we, and we're not sure of thee

Oh, we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Here to save our country from a communistic plot
Join the John Birch Society holding off the Reds
We'll use our hand and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads

Do you want Justice Warren for your Commissar?
Do you want Mrs. Krushchev in there with the DAR?
You cannot trust your neighbor or even next of kin
If mommie is a commie then you gotta turn her in

Oh, we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Fighting for the right to fight the right fight for the Right
Join the John Birch Society as we're marching on
And we'll all be glad to see you when we're meeting in the John
The John, the John Birch So- ci- i- teee
Title: RE: Communism and Christianity
Post by: don has a plan on Fri Aug 31, 2007 - 15:37:24
The Communist paranoia on this board is frightening.  Goodness -- It's 2007.  Communist paranoia ended before the Cold War did. 

This reminds me of the evolution discussions on one of the other boards. 
Title: RE: Communism and Christianity
Post by: admin on Fri Aug 31, 2007 - 16:50:35
The Communist paranoia on this board is frightening.  Goodness -- It's 2007.  Communist paranoia ended before the Cold War did. 

This reminds me of the evolution discussions on one of the other boards. 

First of all, how can you say "The Communist paranoia on this board is frightening"? Why "frightening." You could have said silly or extreme but what about the fact that lots of people don't want communism frightens you? I wash my hands with antibacterial soap, does that mean I'm paranoid of bacteria? I don't mean to frighten you or anything. I'm just trying to prevent bacteria from invading my body and taking over. The same thing applies to my caution when it comes to socialistic/communistic candidates for President.

You can say we're paranoid all you want, but that doesn't take away from the fact that our government marches toward it as more and more of tax dollars are being spent on new government programs. And then Democrats want to raise taxes to pay for more government programs. Before you know it, the government will be in complete control of money and will control even more of our lives. There's nothing paranoid about not wanting to march toward that and not wanting to elect candidates who support that. The way to prevent communism is to prevent pro-communism/socialistic candidates from being elected so that they can't put communist/socialist policies in place. The time to act is BEFORE not AFTER.

That's not being paranoid. Would it have been paranoid to speak out against Stalin or Marx before they gained power? No, it would have saved a lot of people from a life-sucking communist government.

Communism takes control by convincing the people that the government can solve all their problems and take care of them. Once convinced of that, the people will hand over power and money to the government. I'd rather seem paranoid than allow that to happen. And what's scary is that many people are convinced the government should act as a communist one based on what they want the government to do and control....until you explain to them that that is communism and holds people back, takes away freedom and allows for dictatorship, control, etc.  I'm not being paranoid. I'm a concerned citizen who doesn't want a socialist/communist government. You're welcome.
Title: RE: Communism and Christianity
Post by: kanham on Sun Sep 02, 2007 - 08:38:27
Unless something has changed communism is not the enemy and health care isn't the problem, Satan is.

If communism is so evil and such a harsh thing for Christians to allow why is the church growing in a communist country?

Yes, Israel wanted to be governed by man, doesn't seem to me to be any different then the church wanting to be governed by Republicans.

The other myth I see perpetuated on this thread is the idea that Republicans are for smaller government. It would seem they love to spend just as much, they just prefer to cut taxes and spend.

In the end it would seem to me that the only difference between either party is who gets the money when they are in power. 
Title: RE: Communism and Christianity
Post by: jb728b on Sun Sep 02, 2007 - 08:52:22
Any political system will work (communism, socialism, democracy, empire dictatorship) as long as there are good leaders who put the people needs first.

The problem is that the leaders are not good and the people needs take a back seat to personal power and glory.

I vote republican because their agenda takes into consideration people like me.  The demon-crates have nothing to offer people like me.

I am not a minority
I am not a homosexual
I am against abortion
I believe in the freedom of religion
I believe in the right to keep and bear arms
I understand that diplomacy prevents war it doesn't win war.

The demon-crates have nothing to offer so why vote for them?
Title: RE: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Sun Sep 02, 2007 - 12:17:28

If communism is so evil and such a harsh thing for Christians to allow why is the church growing in a communist country?


Communism IS an evil and harsh thing, and Christianity is flourishing in Communist China not because Communism is so tolerant or wonderful but because the Gospel is so powerful and succeeds in spite of an evil regime. Has nothing to do WITH Communism, but everything to do WITH the GOSPEL AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Title: RE: Communism and Christianity
Post by: k-pappy on Sun Sep 02, 2007 - 18:37:37
I'm with Jaime, here.  Communist governments persecute Christians.   Fortunately, the gospel prospers under persecution.  As things get worse there in the states, it will hopefully prosper more.

KP
Title: RE: Communism and Christianity
Post by: admin on Sun Sep 02, 2007 - 21:24:03
The reason that communism has been harsh to Christianity is because a communist government must prevent as much free thinking and global communication as possible. Take the former communist part of Germany. They weren't allowed to see the free side of Germany. Weren't allowed to go over there or their government would punish them. Why? Because they'd see the potential of a free people. In a documentary I heard a German man say that if someone did go to the free side of Germany (on the other side of the wall) and came back that he would be miserable because he would realize what he was missing.

Yes, we all know Satan is the problem. That doesn't mean that we stop arresting criminals and blame it all on Satan. Just like it doesn't mean that we just have a "whatever" attitude when it comes to government.

Communism is usually intolerant of all religion--period. That means Christianity, Buddism, Islam, you name it.  A communist government has to have the people looking at them as a god. After all, a communist government basically decides what people do in terms of career, in terms of where they live and how much money they "live on." Throwing a "god" in there places them at number two in place of authority and prominence in a citizens life and might lead to a rebelion.

And before the arguments start popping in about the early church and how they shared everything thus, they were communistic...a few observations.

1. It's funny to me that usually the ones who bring that up are the very ones who don't want any religion in government. Yet they act as though what the early church did should be an example of how our government is run.

2. The early church was not communistic. People still had their jobs and CHOSE to give their money. They retained that right. No government or church leader forced them to do anything. THEY were free and held the authority over what they did with their money and they wanted to give it to the church. That would most certainly NOT BE ALLOWED by a communist government--yet another thing that starves religion out. The Bible says that the early church gave money to Paul and other teachers so that they could go out into the world and teach. Illegal in a communist government.

My final thought is this. China has been adding elements of free-market (a.k.a. Capitalism) into their country for years. More and more. Why? Because it works. It leads to better products because people are motivated to make their lives better or great by inventing, building, producing or doing something that people want and need. It's freedom and it works because people are free to follow their passions without the government getting in the way. Our founding fathers wanted us to be free and I'm always shocked at people who discuss this and act as though it wouldn't bother them if suddenly America became a communist nation. They just don't know what they are saying and don't realize that they would lose the very right to even talk about the "form" of government in this country. They don't realize that they would lose the "pursuit of happiness" because their career and most of their life would be decided for them by an almighty government that has absolute power without any say so of the people. If you didn't like a leader you couldn't vote him out or vote someone else in. In a communist government, you have no say so and no representation. And religion would be outlawed as history has shown and even to this day communist countries by large outlaw all religion (unless it happens to be the leader's) because of the points mentioned above.

Cherish freedom as a gift and be watchful of politicians who tell you that if you just give them more money the could take better care of you. That's how it starts and all of a sudden when the people realize their money is mostly ALL in the hands of the government, the government is at a point of no return and has no plans of telling you that they've fixed the "problems" and now you can start keeping more of your money again. No...then they start telling you that they are the hand that feeds you and if you want to eat this month you'd better not question them.

But it all starts small and I think we'd be responsible stewards of our nation and countrymen if we were watchful, cautious and protective of our freedom.
Title: Communism and Christianity
Post by: kanham on Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 09:39:51
I think if I’m not mistaken the idea was that we defend Christ not capitalism, maybe I’ve got that one wrong.

“Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Title: Communism and Christianity
Post by: admin on Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 10:01:21
Oh give me a break. Talk about a red herring! If we were talking about a football team and you were defending one team as being better than another, I guess I could say, "I think if I’m not mistaken the idea was that we defend Christ not a football team, maybe I’ve got that one wrong."

 ::sarcasm::

The fact is that we can talk about all kinds of different topics. Sports, cars, plants, politics, relationships, music, video games, movies and if you started to talk good about one I could get onto you for not praising Christ instead. God made us with the capacity to enjoy life and to reason and think. There's nothing wrong with prefferring a form of government over another and I happen to prefer the kind where I'm free. It shocks me to think that anyone would want it another way seeing as how people from communists countries float across the ocean on old doors and driftwood just to come here--to the land of opportunity--and escape their communist oppressor.

Capitalism is simply a free market where people are FREE to choose their own financial paths and to buy what they want. Sure some people get rich at it. Many used to be dirt poor and worked their way into riches. It's sinful for you to covet what they have.

Are you saying you want communism in America?

Secondly, please stop saying that it's "Satan that's the problem" or that we should be better Christians by blah, blah, blah. That's like someone walking into your house with a weapon and telling you to hand over all your money and your children and then telling you that you ought to be more faithful to God and realize that these things don't matter and that Satan is the real problem--not them. So just hand it over and quit whining.

This is a discussion forum. We talk about all kinds of different things and some of those things require more than a "Satan is the problem answer" or "Jesus" as the answer. Jesus is the answer to many, many things, but some topics--like who is going to win the game Saturday--do not have Him as the answer to that particular question. And unless you want to give up all hobbies, thoughts, discussion and possessions that don't directly discuss God at that moment, then please stop trying to act like I'm less spiritual because I'm having a discussion about government (or anything else for that matter).
Title: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Bon Voyage on Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 10:03:29
Oh give me a break. Talk about a red herring! If we were talking about a football team and you were defending one team as being better than another, I guess I could say, "I think if I’m not mistaken the idea was that we defend Christ not a football team, maybe I’ve got that one wrong."

::rollseyes::

The fact is that we can talk about all kinds of different topics. Sports, cars, plants, politics, relationships, music, video games, movies and if you started to talk good about one I could get onto you for not praising Christ instead. God made us with the capacity to enjoy life and to reason and think. There's nothing wrong with prefferring a form of government over another and I happen to prefer the kind where I'm free. It shocks me to think that anyone would want it another way seeing as how people from communists countries float across the ocean on old doors and driftwood just to come here--to the land of opportunity--and escape their communist oppressor.

Capitalism is simply a free market where people are FREE to choose their own financial paths and to buy what they want. Sure some people get rich at it. Many used to be dirt poor and worked their way into riches. It's sinful for you to covet what they have.

Are you saying you want communism in America?

I don't want it, but it may be good for the church.  The church seems to flourish under persecution.
Title: Communism and Christianity
Post by: admin on Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 10:06:29
Gary,

The church still has the strongest presence in America that it has ever had anywhere in history. It might be in decline now, but if you just want sheer numbers, the church has thrived under freedom. We are the reason it is in decline now--mostly because we are trying to become a socialist government and take God/religion out of everything. And we are so obsessed with being politically correct (another socialist trait) that we don't attempt to lead others to Jesus (at least not like Christians used to) because we're afraid of appearing judgmental and politically incorrect  (ah, that government control thing has already seeped in).

As Jaime said, Christianity has done fairly well in spite of communism and oppressive governments, the oppressive government doesn't cause Christianity to do well. Again, I'd point you to the number of Christians in America versus communist countries. The message of Christ is able to work in any kind of government/society, but if it was made illegal and the opportunities to reach people were taken away from us by a government, obviously we'd have fewer tools and opportunities to reach the lost. Socialism has nearly wiped Christianity out in Europe and it will do the same thing in America if we allow it.

Sure, Christianity is making strides in China, but because it is illegal, there are millions of people who are NOT hearing the gospel message that could be if the people were free. So lets not kid ourselves or try to spin the idea that somehow communism would help Christianity.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jimbob on Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 10:43:09
The Apostle Paul was all too familiar with persecution.  This was his advice to the young church...

"I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone--for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."  I Tim. 2:1-4, NIV

(And, btw, I've worked in barely-out-of-Communism former Soviet Union [1995-97] and I can tell you that communism did them no favors.  While there were underground churches during the 70 year stint, Christianity spread most after communism ended, not during.)
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: spurly on Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 11:00:10
In my humble opinion the church in America might benefit from more persecution being directed against us.  Those who are lukewarm or hanging on to the coattails of the church for the wrong reason would leave and then the only ones left would be the true believers who would then be able to grow more deeply, produce more fruit without dealing with the problems of those with wrong motives, and cooperate with Christ in his mission more fully realizing that we won't always have an opportunity to spread the story of the glory of Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jimbob on Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 11:19:53
Sometimes he just yanks the candlestick in those situations.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: kanham on Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 13:00:16
Who is using a red herring?

Can you point me to the person claiming their a football team makes the world a better place? Is the only right way and is far superior to any other? If you can point me to the post that explains how The Crimson Tide makes being a Christian easier or better or right I would love to read it and the responses that follow.

If you have done anything you have made my point for me. The absurdity of claiming a football team makes things better runs along the same lines as saying capitalism does.

Let’s all go to Fiji and see the benefits of capitalism where we ship out their water so American’s can drink something in a plastic bottle that by the way comes from a faucet already from a country where the majority of inhabitants don’t have drinkable water.  Three cheers for capitalism.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: kanham on Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 13:35:14
The church still has the strongest presence in America that it has ever had anywhere in history. It might be in decline now, but if you just want sheer numbers, the church has thrived under freedom.

 I'm not sure this is really true. Number of buildings may mean something but not necessarily.

I would recommend checking statistics for the megachurches in America. Find out how many preach the prosperity gospel. Then check how many use new age religion of the power of positive thinking dressed in Christ and then do the math.

Personally for me health and wealth is not the focus of scripture but some may disagree.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Bon Voyage on Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 16:29:42
The church still has the strongest presence in America that it has ever had anywhere in history. It might be in decline now, but if you just want sheer numbers, the church has thrived under freedom.

 I'm not sure this is really true. Number of buildings may mean something but not necessarily.

I would recommend checking statistics for the megachurches in America. Find out how many preach the prosperity gospel. Then check how many use new age religion of the power of positive thinking dressed in Christ and then do the math.

Personally for me health and wealth is not the focus of scripture but some may disagree.


I wonder how much Matthew 7:21-23 fits in America and even right in the congregation I call home.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: admin on Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 19:24:46
Spurly,

I understand what you are saying and why you are saying it. It's a trendy thing to say nowdays. I'm not saying that you said it for that reason. But the church in Europe has basically been whiped out because of socialism and "politically correct" persecution. We should learn from that. Persecution most certainly doesn't guarantee the furthering of the gospel. In my opinion, it usually brings about the opposite. You are assuming that the persecution would still allow Christians to meet together or would allow us to spread the gospel at all.

Where I live, the local school boards, led mostly by a person who privately said the following to another board member--"I don't like all those 'non-denominational churches meeting in schools"--tried to pass a law that churches could no longer meet in schools. That law was watered down to only say that churches could not use school class rooms and that law has passed. It will hurt many churches and it's not fair because the law states that any tax payer group has access to school buildings assuming it complies with certain guidelines. As it stands, any tax-paying group that isn't breaking a law and makes the appropriate requests can use the rooms in school buildings after hours--except for churches. That's just simply prejudiced.

Freedom doesn't hurt the church. People hurt the church. We should never be suckered into inviting persecution. Paul stood up for himself many times because he was a citizen of Rome and therefore entitled to a trial and could not be whipped etc. He didn't invite persecution or government descrimination and even fought it.

But what I said earlier I think is accurate. We need more freedom to reach people with the gospel. Not less.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: the J Man on Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 19:39:09




Secondly, please stop saying that it's "Satan that's the problem" or that we should be better Christians by blah, blah, blah. That's like someone walking into your house with a weapon and telling you to hand over all your money and your children and then telling you that you ought to be more faithful to God and realize that these things don't matter and that Satan is the real problem--not them. So just hand it over and quit whining.

Actually, for him to mention Satan as the problem, then he should realize that we should not just sit back and take it. We are not to just sit back and take what the devil throws at us. Jesus took authority over demons, so did the apostles. Communism is a diabolical scheme to get control over people and enslave them to the system. That is why communist governments hate chrsitianity. because christianity is about getting people set free from the oppressor(which is Satan). Jesus said He came to set the captives free(Luke4:18). 2nd Corinthians3:17 says that wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. That is a threat to a communist government who really is being controlled by Satan. 2nd Corinthians4:4 mentions how Satan is the god of this world(meaning the worldly system). Communism is exactly that. Satan is in control of it. That is why the communist government expects you to look at them as god. It is really a form of slavery. You do what your told or else. They control you. They basically run your life. The sad thing is, those who are running the government(not just the democrats either) are involved in it.

I goota say though, very good posts! You really are aware of what is going on.

Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: kanham on Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 20:29:03
Quote
But the church in Europe has basically been whiped out because of socialism and "politically correct" persecution.

Could I get more information on this, some articles that point out this is what happened with the European church? I have read where amoral and corrupt clergy impacted the church in Europe. I have read where their involvement in business and government led to their downfall but I had not read that it was socialism and political correctness that hurt them.

If I have misunderstood I would appreciate the reading.

Thanks.



Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: kanham on Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 20:32:17
Actually, for him to mention Satan as the problem, then he should realize that we should not just sit back and take it. We are not to just sit back and take what the devil throws at us. Jesus took authority over demons, so did the apostles.

Am I the him in this statement?

I would love to discuss what we see to be an appropriate solution and response for believers today but it seems your assumption is that if one disagrees or reminds all that the enemy is Satan that this means we sit on our hands? I'm not sure how one connects those dots, maybe I need to reread what I have said because I may have not been clear.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: marc on Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 20:37:45
I think the problem with the church in Europe is that they're in Europe, and every society has it's own problems and tempations.  I don't thnk ours and theirs are the same.  Their old society, old structures, old churches aren't duplicated here.

istm that the greatest enemy of the church in America is materialism.  Too many churches are willing to compromise and appease the affluent.

There are a number, however, who do go among the poor and show the face of Christ to those in their community.  I thank God for these churches and pray for more of us to become like them.  When I look at the church I'm a part of I see some of this, but I see more self-centeredness.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Bon Voyage on Mon Sep 03, 2007 - 21:53:40
I think the problem with the church in Europe is that they're in Europe, and every society has it's own problems and tempations.  I don't thnk ours and theirs are the same.  Their old society, old structures, old churches aren't duplicated here.

istm that the greatest enemy of the church in America is materialism.  Too many churches are willing to compromise and appease the affluent.

There are a number, however, who do go among the poor and show the face of Christ to those in their community.  I thank God for these churches and pray for more of us to become like them.  When I look at the church I'm a part of I see some of this, but I see more self-centeredness.

I would probably say it is American Individualism, of which materialism is a manifestation.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: don has a plan on Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 10:37:14
The problem in Europe, quite frankly, appears to be that Christianity has run its course there.  Religions eventually go away, leaving only a remnant following.  Read about the great religions of eons past in your history books; where have those religions gone? 

In the next few centuries, Christianity will probably be in the same situation here in North America. 
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: navyvet on Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 10:47:42
The problem in Europe, quite frankly, appears to be that Christianity has run its course there.  Religions eventually go away, leaving only a remnant following.  Read about the great religions of eons past in your history books; where have those religions gone? 

In the next few centuries, Christianity will probably be in the same situation here in North America.

What the history of religion in Europe shows, as elsewhere, is that religion becomes moribund as it becomes distinct from the faith giving rise to the religion, especially when the religion demands gatekeeping status and the power to coerce. The Reformation is one demonstration of the power of faith to overturn the demands of religion, and various forms of the same make themselves manifest from time to time. There is a cycle for these things, and we're just entering another turn of the wheel.

What is happening in the United States is that certain segments of right-wing religion, whether Protestant, Catholic, of even Jewish, having had a 20-year run or so of trying to leverage religious identity into political power and with some degree of success, are waning in influence. For our society, that's a good thing.

Don't confuse religious power with the power of faith. Thgy're not the same, nor will they ever be the same.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: CSloan on Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 10:50:20
Communism is the vehicle for the Globalists and the New World Order.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: janine on Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 10:54:27
Admin, I was not aware that a church would be considered a tax-paying community group.

If that's the basis in the situation you detailed, that it was ruled that only tax-paying groups should be allowed to rent or reserve school facilities for meetings, then churches should be left out.

But then so should any other non-profit group (ACLU, Planned Parenthood, etc.).
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: don has a plan on Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 12:20:49
Quote
Communism is the vehicle for the Globalists and the New World Order.

Actually, capitalism has been the driving force behind globalization.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: CSloan on Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 12:55:40
Quote
Communism is the vehicle for the Globalists and the New World Order.

Actually, capitalism has been the driving force behind globalization.

Very true, but in order for there to be a successful one-world government the guidelines of the communist manifesto would have to be followed.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: admin on Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 13:31:50
Admin, I was not aware that a church would be considered a tax-paying community group.

If that's the basis in the situation you detailed, that it was ruled that only tax-paying groups should be allowed to rent or reserve school facilities for meetings, then churches should be left out.

But then so should any other non-profit group (ACLU, Planned Parenthood, etc.).

Not the group, the people who make up the group. In other words, you and I as taxpayers can meet in a school classroom after school hours with any group we wish (for profit or non) unless it is a Christian church.  At least, that's the law now in Williamson County Tennessee.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: don has a plan on Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 13:35:26
Quote
Communism is the vehicle for the Globalists and the New World Order.

Actually, capitalism has been the driving force behind globalization.

Very true, but in order for there to be a successful one-world government the guidelines of the communist manifesto would have to be followed.


I don't know anything about that.  Sounds interesting, though.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: navyvet on Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 14:15:44
Where I live, the local school boards, led mostly by a person who privately said the following to another board member--"I don't like all those 'non-denominational churches meeting in schools"--tried to pass a law that churches could no longer meet in schools. That law was watered down to only say that churches could not use school class rooms and that law has passed. It will hurt many churches and it's not fair because the law states that any tax payer group has access to school buildings assuming it complies with certain guidelines. As it stands, any tax-paying group that isn't breaking a law and makes the appropriate requests can use the rooms in school buildings after hours--except for churches. That's just simply prejudiced.


Not sure that's a complete description of what happened at the Williamson Co. School Board meeting in question. Through the miracle of Google, here's the minutes of the issue in question:

(see http://www.wcs.edu/district/sb_minutes/2007/May%2021%202007.pdf)

Quote
MINUTES – Williamson County Board of Education 11
May 21, 2007
Board Attorney Chuck Cagle suggested appropriate language to address the
policy revisions.
Ralph Ringstaff moved to amend the motion per Mr. Cagle’s suggestion that
current users of the facilities will be considered for a maximum of two renewals
of their leases under the terms and conditions of this policy that specifically
includes classroom use or the lack thereof. Pat Anderson seconded the motion.
Barry Watkins called the question.
Janice Mills objected to calling the question.
Ms. Mills asked for clarification regarding the ongoing use of classrooms if the
amendment passes. It was clarified that the amendment would give a 90 day
notice to terminate classroom use for existing leases and no new classroom use
would be approved for future leases or extensions. It was further clarified that the
classroom restriction applied only to classrooms being used by the schools as
classrooms. Vacant classrooms could still be used by the churches.

Chairman Anderson asked for a recommendation from Superintendent Sharber,
who recommended approval of the amendment.
Chairman Anderson called for a roll call vote on the motion.
D’Wayne Greer Yes Sina Miller Yes
Janice Mills Yes Pat Anderson Yes
Ralph Ringstaff Yes Barry Watkins Yes
Ed Bailey Yes Bill Peach Yes
Gary Anderson Yes James Bond No
Terry Leve Yes
Action: Yes, 10; No, 1; Abstain, 0; Motion Carried.
Chairman Anderson asked for a recommendation from Superintendent Sharber on
the amended main motion. Dr. Sharber recommended approval.
Chairman Anderson called for a roll call vote on the amended main motion.
D’Wayne Greer Yes Sina Miller Yes
Janice Mills Yes Pat Anderson Yes
Ralph Ringstaff Yes Barry Watkins Yes
Ed Bailey Yes Bill Peach Yes
Gary Anderson Yes James Bond No
Terry Leve Yes
Action: Yes, 10; No, 1; Abstain, 0; Motion Carried.


Frankly, if I were a teacher there, I wouldn't want my classroom interior disrupted either. Don't see what the problem is. Truth is, the new policy applies to all lessees of WCS property, not just churches wanting to use the facilities. Hard as well to see Williamson Co. as "unfriendly" to religion: it's the wealthiest and most Republican county in Tennessee. Putting a "liberal" label on the county strains credulity.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: admin on Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 14:41:55
Navyvet,

I don't know what your problem is, but if you lived here you'd know that everyone wants into Williamson County schools. So there are no "vacant" rooms.

Secondly, the main instigator of the bill was quoted by another board member as saying that he didn't like churches meeting in schools. The original bill would not allow churches to use schools for anything. This is just a foot in the door to push that bill again sometime in the future.

Third, we don't "disrupt" classrooms. We merely sit in desks and make sure the room is exactly as we left it--and churches are PAYING rent to the schools to do so!

Fourth, churches in the area were allowed to meet with the board and ask questions and the board clarified that other groups like AA, MAD, etc. were allowed to use the classrooms. It was churches who would not be allowed to do so. So your uninformed statement saying it applied to all lessees of WCS property is inaccurate.

So why don't you quit siding with everyone else but churches/Christianity and just look at the bloomin' facts!? I know you're trying to look all progressive and trendy, but get over yourself and wake up. For Pete's sake, if I said the sky was blue you'd argue with me.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: don has a plan on Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 14:49:57
Quote
Fourth, churches in the area were allowed to meet with the board and ask questions and the board clarified that other groups like AA, MAD, etc. were allowed to use the classrooms. It was churches who would not be allowed to do so. So your uninformed statement saying it applied to all lessees of WCS property is inaccurate.

That's not what the meeting minutes navyvet posted say at all.  The minutes show that churches are grouped with charitable and civic-type groups.  Perhaps the board's secretary erred in the minutes.  I hope they get it corrected.

My son goes to a school that is housed in the education building of a large Presbyterian church.  The church kids go through that building on Sunday mornings and make a mess of the classroom.  So it's sort of the same thing, just in reverse.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: CSloan on Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 14:52:42
Quote
Communism is the vehicle for the Globalists and the New World Order.


Actually, capitalism has been the driving force behind globalization.


Very true, but in order for there to be a successful one-world government the guidelines of the communist manifesto would have to be followed.



I don't know anything about that.  Sounds interesting, though.


I've seen a great deal of material on this, and there seems to be a volume to evidence supporting this theory. This also ties into evolution, hence most of our rejection to this teaching.

http://server.firefighters.org/catalog/2001/13031.mp3
http://server.firefighters.org/catalog/2001/13032.mp3
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: don has a plan on Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 15:12:15
I'm blocked from opening mp3 files at work (virus concern).  I'll have to check those out when I'm on a different pc.  Thanks for the links.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: navyvet on Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 15:39:13
Navyvet,

I don't know what your problem is, but if you lived here you'd know that everyone wants into Williamson County schools. So there are no "vacant" rooms...
I apologize to you for sounding hostile; I didn't mean to. I guess that's a problem with posting with words only, without any other input (tone of voice, facial expressions, etc.).

Looks like your congregation's meeting in one of the schools. Someone may have already asked you about this, but would you tell us more about yourselves. Are you trying to plant a congregation in Williamson Co.? How much success are you having? With all the challenges, it still much be very exciting. Is there a website for the congregation?
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: marc on Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 15:42:34
I think the problem with the church in Europe is that they're in Europe, and every society has it's own problems and tempations.  I don't thnk ours and theirs are the same.  Their old society, old structures, old churches aren't duplicated here.

istm that the greatest enemy of the church in America is materialism.  Too many churches are willing to compromise and appease the affluent.

There are a number, however, who do go among the poor and show the face of Christ to those in their community.  I thank God for these churches and pray for more of us to become like them.  When I look at the church I'm a part of I see some of this, but I see more self-centeredness.

I would probably say it is American Individualism, of which materialism is a manifestation.

That's probably worth another thread. 
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jimbob on Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 15:47:05
On Christianity in Europe, that trend may be changing.  There was an article in the Christian Chronicle about an increase in interest in Christianity, and the emergent church groups have been pretty active in Europe as well.  It's probably most accurate to say that the stodgy and liturgical groups and the liberal and darn-near agnostic "churches" are the ones dying, not Christianity as whole.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: kanham on Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 15:48:29
Admin,

What kind of legal action are churches looking into? It sounds like a clear case of religious discrimination.

Now from what I have read the action says all lessees so maybe there was some problem with communication but if churches are the ones being singled out I think you would have a pretty strong case there.

Quote
The Board of Education leases buildings and property or the portions of buildings and
property it determines are not being used or are not needed at present by Williamson
County Schools. Lessees may not have access to any classroom which is in use as a
classroom.


 
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: don has a plan on Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 16:08:11
The only thing that would concern me about any organization meeting in a school is the privacy issue.  Education records (including graded papers, progress reports, behavior notes, etc.) are to be maintained in confidence.  If such records are floating around in classrooms (in the teacher's unlocked desk, for example), and the organization using the school has access, then there's been a violation of trust...and federal law.

Admin -- Is your church going to have access to the gym or the cafeteria?  Those areas shouldn't be off-limits, especially if you're paying rent.  School systems are always begging for money; I would think this would be an easy way to generate funds.

BTW, if your church ends up having to leave the school, you might try renting an auditorium at a local movie theater.  I know of a couple of churches in Little Rock that did that some years ago.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: admin on Tue Sep 04, 2007 - 17:19:31
The only thing that would concern me about any organization meeting in a school is the privacy issue.  Education records (including graded papers, progress reports, behavior notes, etc.) are to be maintained in confidence.  If such records are floating around in classrooms (in the teacher's unlocked desk, for example), and the organization using the school has access, then there's been a violation of trust...and federal law.

Admin -- Is your church going to have access to the gym or the cafeteria?  Those areas shouldn't be off-limits, especially if you're paying rent.  School systems are always begging for money; I would think this would be an easy way to generate funds.

BTW, if your church ends up having to leave the school, you might try renting an auditorium at a local movie theater.  I know of a couple of churches in Little Rock that did that some years ago.

The law will not affect us because we are moving into our first building just before the law begins. It will affect other start-up churches.

Our church is an independent Christian church and we are very focused on evangelism and reaching the lost instead of just playing church on Sunday mornings. I'm not sure the exact percentage, but if I remember correctly about 60 percent of our members are adult converts who had no church contact as children.

We're trying to support other start-up churches of all denominations who are being hurt by this law. Because churches are one of the top users of school buildings, they will be most hurt and the law, based on the actual words from the board, were made in an effort to keep churches out of schools.

There are all kinds of lawyers working with local churches, but with the claims of "separation of church and state" and the board making it sound like this is not just aimed at churches--even though none of the other groups have need for classrooms because they don't break up into smaller groups--fighting this is nearly impossible. You hear talk of how much schools need money, but apparently they don't need it so bad that they'd allow churches to use their facilities. We might actually cast the demons out of the buildings!

And by the way, we have no access to any rooms where private records are stored. Certain rooms are locked when we use the building. Eventually, the school buildings will be completely locked to churches.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: don has a plan on Wed Sep 05, 2007 - 08:54:42
Well, that's definitely an injustice.  However, it sounds like your church is moving on to bigger and better.  You and the church have my prayers for an easy transition into your new building; may it be a vehicle for bringing more people to know Jesus.

In the meantime, though, I hope that you and others in Williamson County will write and call the school board members and tell them that what they have done is wrong.  They can always vote again and change the policy.  Heck, if that doesn't work, run for school board yourself.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: navyvet on Wed Sep 05, 2007 - 10:34:36
Well, that's definitely an injustice.  However, it sounds like your church is moving on to bigger and better.  You and the church have my prayers for an easy transition into your new building; may it be a vehicle for bringing more people to know Jesus.

In the meantime, though, I hope that you and others in Williamson County will write and call the school board members and tell them that what they have done is wrong.  They can always vote again and change the policy.  Heck, if that doesn't work, run for school board yourself.
I'm not sure I've seen anything that shows that any church has been done wrong by the WCS board from the plain reading of the language of the policy in question.  I appreciate Admin's frustration, however. That being said, I'm not sure I would rely on governmental entities for religious support. Certainly the first century church did not, and look what they accomplished in the Lord.  House churches have always been an option. Relying on governmental support, even through leased facilities, seems to be a short wide road to Constantinianism; after all, under him and the Roman emperors after him, the Church received all the tax exemptions the pagan temples had enjoyed for centuries. Not a pattern I would necessarily care to follow.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: admin on Wed Sep 05, 2007 - 14:32:46
We have written many letters. We made it a point to write letters instead of sending emails because we were told that handwritten letters were more likely to be read.

Navyvet, we're not counting on government support, but we shouldn't have to put up with government discrimination.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: navyvet on Wed Sep 05, 2007 - 15:07:12
Navyvet, we're not counting on government support, but we shouldn't have to put up with government discrimination.
I certainly agree with that. Do you have a website (or any other kind of cyber-outreach) up and going? You know with all the stuff oldtimers like us look for: sunday services times and stuff?
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jimbob on Wed Sep 05, 2007 - 15:54:43
Admin, good for you for looking beyond your own congregation's needs and working to keep/reopen the doors for others.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: navyvet on Wed Sep 05, 2007 - 16:01:04
Admin, good for you for looking beyond your own congregation's needs and working to keep/reopen the doors for others.
Thankful for the Lord's work through you and your congregation.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: don has a plan on Wed Sep 05, 2007 - 16:16:25
Admin, good for you for looking beyond your own congregation's needs and working to keep/reopen the doors for others.

Hear, hear.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: admin on Mon Oct 15, 2007 - 13:45:57
Communism / Socialism - No Such Thing As a Free Lunch

There was a chemistry professor in a large college that had some exchange students in the class. One day while the class was in the lab the professor noticed one young man (exchange student) who kept rubbing his back and stretching as if his back hurt.
 
The professor asked the young man what was the matter. The student told him he had a bullet lodged in his back.  He had been shot while fighting communists in his native country who were trying to overthrow his country's government and install a new communist government.
 
In the midst of his story he looked at the professor and asked a strange question. He asked, ' Do you know how to catch wild pigs?'
 
The professor thought it was a joke and asked for the punch line. The young man said this was no joke. 'You catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods and putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place where they are used to coming.
 
When they get used to the fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence. They get used to that and start to eat again. You continue until you have all four sides of the fence up with a gate in The last side.
 
The pigs, who are used to the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat, you slam the gate on them and catch the whole herd.
 
Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around and around inside the fence, but they are
 caught.  Soon they go back to eating the free corn.  They are so used to it that they have forgotten how to forage in the woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity.
 
The young man then told the professor '... that is exactly what he sees happening to America.  The government keeps pushing us toward Communism/Socialism and keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of government programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare, medicine, drugs, etc. while we continually lose our freedoms--just a little at a time as more and more comes out of our income to pay...for the fences.
 
One should always remember 'There is no such thing as a free Lunch!  Also, 'You can never hire someone to provide a service for you cheaper than you can do it yourself.
 
Also, if you see that all of this wonderful government 'help' is a problem confronting the future of democracy in America,  you might want to send this on to your friends....there's some 'Communists' running for political offices all across this land......they are called 'Liberal Democrats' by some......and have 'taken the Socialistic side' of the Democratic party away from the traditional Democrats.....just think: '...what would Harry Truman,  FDR be doing now if either of them were in the White House?
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Mon Oct 15, 2007 - 14:04:21
Very good illustration Admin. Also what's funny about pigs is that if you suddenly remove the fence, they will not venture out beyond where the fence was. (I used to raise pigs when I was a kid on a farm). Kinda sobering for the application to us as a people.

I still like what Dave Ramsey says:

"It's up to each of us to leave the cave, go out and kill something ourselves, and drag it home to eat. No one owes us anything."

BTW, after my dad went broke farming, he opened a restaurant in a small farming community. He was appalled at the CRP program that paid farmers not to grow crops. His lament was always, "If the government would pay me not to cook hamburgers, I could not cook as many as they saw fit!"

I have an uncle that bought up 1/2 of Bailey County in the panhandle of Texas (county seat Muleshoe) playing the CRP system and letting the government make his land payments.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Sat Nov 17, 2007 - 12:56:35
Wow, I just found this thread and it seems there's a huge bias against the word 'Communism'.  I think it's a great idea that has never been applied correctly because selfish people have run it, except in one application.  One application I've read about seemed to work very well.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Bon Voyage on Sat Nov 17, 2007 - 13:04:50
Wow, I just found this thread and it seems there's a huge bias against the word 'Communism'.  I think it's a great idea that has never been applied correctly because selfish people have run it, except in one application.  One application I've read about seemed to work very well.

"Communism" is a great theory and idea.  However, communism as a political system will NEVER work out.  The theory of communism is flawed to begin with, as man's sinfulness will not allow it to function.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Sat Nov 17, 2007 - 13:14:37
It seemed to work pretty well in the book of Acts.  That's pretty much what they had.  Everyone gave up all they had, laid the wealth at the feet of the apostles, and NOBODY was in need.  Sounds like that's the kind of system that God wills us to have.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Bon Voyage on Sat Nov 17, 2007 - 13:18:15
It seemed to work pretty well in the book of Acts.  That's pretty much what they had.  Everyone gave up all they had, laid the wealth at the feet of the apostles, and NOBODY was in need.  Sounds like that's the kind of system that God wills us to have.

That wasn't government mandated Communism.  That was people sharing freely.  Two very, very different things.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: admin on Sat Nov 17, 2007 - 13:20:54
It seemed to work pretty well in the book of Acts.  That's pretty much what they had.  Everyone gave up all they had, laid the wealth at the feet of the apostles, and NOBODY was in need.  Sounds like that's the kind of system that God wills us to have.

Difference is that everyone CHOSE to give up what they had. It was their right and not some secular government forcing them to.

Secondly, it was a church community--not a government. Shocker--The church and the government are NOT the same.

Third, the church was deciding what was being done with the money, not a worldly government.

If you want to give everything you own to your church, be my guest. That's your right because of the fact that we aren't a communist nation. If we were, the government would decide how your money would be spent and I can pretty much guarantee you it wouldn't go to the church. But suggesting that giving all your money to church work is somehow equal to a wasteful government forcing us to give it all to them so that they can control our lives is NOT the same thing. You're comparing apples to blisters!
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Sat Nov 17, 2007 - 13:34:09
Like I said, just one application has ever worked.

I agree a worldly government won't be able to do this right.  It doesn't do what it's doing now right, since obviously not everyone's needs are being met.

As for me giving all my money to the church, I don't see why I shouldn't do that if I was confident that all my needs were going to be met by the church, but the churches today are not at all the way they were in the book of Acts...  We have church buildings worth over 40 million dollars while the people down the street aren't able to eat...
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: admin on Sat Nov 17, 2007 - 14:05:44
Right. But trusting the government for all your needs is not the answer. That's not the government's job. That attitude is childish and leads to communism, socialism and a world of other hurts.

We are to be adults and provide for ourselves and do our best to help others. We should trust the government to very little because I can't really think of anything that I'd say they do exceptionally well. Anything the government can do, private citizens working together can do better. Remember that the next time Democrats (or Republicans) promise you more government programs if they can just stick their hands deeper into your pocket.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Sat Nov 17, 2007 - 14:28:53
I understand your position, but the problem is that private citizens DON'T work together to meet the needs of the poor.  The attitude of the "government should do nothing" people seems like that the poor should either be taken care of by philanthropic groups or should die of starvation, but under NO circumstances should the receive help from their leaders.  That sounds more childish to me...
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: admin on Sat Nov 17, 2007 - 14:43:47
I understand your position, but the problem is that private citizens DON'T work together to meet the needs of the poor.  The attitude of the "government should do nothing" people seems like that the poor should either be taken care of by philanthropic groups or should die of starvation, but under NO circumstances should the receive help from their leaders.  That sounds more childish to me...

Whoa there tiger. We went from you saying that communism was how the Bible wanted it to you accusing me of saying that the poor should starve. Interesting how people jump to extreme accusations when they debate.

My point is that robbing from Peter to pay Paul is wrong. Period. Peter should help Paul because he wants to and not because some government forces him. Most of that money that supposedly goes to the poor doesn't and is only used to make more government programs that take more of our money and disable us from being able to help the poor.

Besides, how much do you really help someone by giving them a permanent handout? I don't know how we got on this. The bottom line is that communism is MOST CERTAINLY not the answer. I like my freedom and will fight to the death to keep it!

If we were in a communist government...discussing other government possibilities would be illegal and we'd go to jail. So be glad you live in a free country.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Sun Nov 18, 2007 - 00:54:09
I understand your position, but the problem is that private citizens DON'T work together to meet the needs of the poor.  The attitude of the "government should do nothing" people seems like that the poor should either be taken care of by philanthropic groups or should die of starvation, but under NO circumstances should the receive help from their leaders.  That sounds more childish to me...

Whoa there tiger. We went from you saying that communism was how the Bible wanted it to you accusing me of saying that the poor should starve. Interesting how people jump to extreme accusations when they debate.

My point is that robbing from Peter to pay Paul is wrong. Period. Peter should help Paul because he wants to and not because some government forces him. Most of that money that supposedly goes to the poor doesn't and is only used to make more government programs that take more of our money and disable us from being able to help the poor.

Besides, how much do you really help someone by giving them a permanent handout? I don't know how we got on this. The bottom line is that communism is MOST CERTAINLY not the answer. I like my freedom and will fight to the death to keep it!

If we were in a communist government...discussing other government possibilities would be illegal and we'd go to jail. So be glad you live in a free country.
I didn't accuse you of this!  I said that's the way the attitude (or position) seems sometimes.

My question is what if Peter doesn't help Paul.  Does Paul get to die so Peter can be more well off?

As for communism as a government, it's not necessarily that way.  Communism isn't even a governing system; it's an economic system.  We have communism vs capitalism.  In the past, communist societies have been ruled by autocrats, but that's not necessary, is it?  Why not have a democracy for a government and a communism for an economic system?  I'm not saying that's the best idea in the world, but the word "communism" doesn't need to carry the weight people have tried to allow it to carry.

Communism has nothing to do with personal freedoms.  People who have applied communisms to their societies have taken personal freedoms too, but they are from the same cause, not cause and effect.  Here's an analogy.  Each year, whenever the sale of ice cream goes up, the number of drownings also go up.  Does that mean ice cream causes people to drown?  Of course not.  It means it's summertime and more people go swimming and more people buy ice cream.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: don has a plan on Tue Nov 20, 2007 - 10:09:32
Quote
What if there were two parties and they really were the same? Does democracy really exist? What if the candidates were pre-selected before you even got to vote? Would it still be democracy?

Interesting pov.  I would argue that the two scenarios you posit have already been realized in the US.  IMO, the two political parties are simply two limbs on the same branch, essentially the same.  The candidates are chosen by a select few; by the time the vast majority of the country gets to vote, the candidates are already settled.  (Actually, I would argue that they are settled by party bosses well in advance of the primaries anyway.)

Besides your example of Social Security, btw, we have many forms of socialism in the US that few people contest.  Public utilities--sewers, water, electricity, roads--as well as government-supported police, fire, and ambulance service are examples of socialist principles at work.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Dunamite on Thu Nov 22, 2007 - 09:14:51
Quote
What if there were two parties and they really were the same? Does democracy really exist? What if the candidates were pre-selected before you even got to vote? Would it still be democracy?

Interesting pov.  I would argue that the two scenarios you posit have already been realized in the US.  IMO, the two political parties are simply two limbs on the same branch, essentially the same.  The candidates are chosen by a select few; by the time the vast majority of the country gets to vote, the candidates are already settled.  (Actually, I would argue that they are settled by party bosses well in advance of the primaries anyway.)

Besides your example of Social Security, btw, we have many forms of socialism in the US that few people contest.  Public utilities--sewers, water, electricity, roads--as well as government-supported police, fire, and ambulance service are examples of socialist principles at work.
I do not wish to pick on the U.S. My own country is much the same. We have more parties in our parliamentary system, but the two mainline parties which have formed the government since it became an independent country are much the same. Both jockey to occupy the center of the political spectrum. The other parties are special interest parties, separatist, socialist and green. At best they can hope to make up the opposition.

U.S. politics is fascinating for many reasons. The main one being its scale: the length of the campaigns, the cost and the obsession of the media.

The litmus test for political parties is the mark that they leave after being in power. Unfortunately, parties that promise change rarely deliver. Once in Ontario the NDP (our "social democratic" party) took power. They promised to make change, but found that once in power the could not deliver. Why? Because economic chaos would have developed as industry threatened to flee should they implement their program. So even when business fails to elect a government favorable to them they still have the economy to use as a hammer.

Companies do not get a vote, but they have far more power than the electorate.

Mussolini once said that corporatism and fascism were the same thing. Decision making is made behind closed doors and what we see is all theater, to give us the illusion that those in power want us to have.

Canadians do not have the weight of the flag that any Americans have. We do not think that it is unpatriotic to condemn our leaders when they deserve it. In fact, it is a national sport to for the media. In contrast, the media in the U.S. is compliant and generally rolls over and apes whatever the White House tells it to say. Israel has boasted that it can kill any story it wants on CNN. Fox tells its correspondents what stories to cover and how to slant the stories to favor the administration. Failing that politicians use the flag to deflect criticism by suggesting that it is unpatriotic to question their policies. Most Americans are easily swayed by this. Canadian media would have a field day with this kind of behavior. Political humor is big here.

Part of the difference in the media is ownership and control over editorial content. In the U.S. it is private, but here we have the CBC which is publicly funded, but insulated from government control. I remember during the last presidential campaign with the Swift Boat incident where various media outlets came up with all kinds of anti-Kerry "information". Canadian media would never be allowed this kind of latitude. Canadians would have insisted on equal time. In fact it is the law. In the U.S. private ownership of the media gives power to media moguls to influence the political process. Again, they get no vote, but they have undue influence over the outcome.

One of the things that we are trying to do here is to control private interest groups from running ads which influence public opinion during elections. They have to walk a fine line. If they endorse anyone then they are considered part of the election campaign finances of the parties and must be reported. We have a long way to go, but we are making progress. The second thing that has happened is a cap on donations. Donations cannot exceed $5000 and financial support must be disclosed. Once it is a matter of public record then it easy to verify if a backer has received favorable treatment.

Finally, lobbying is strictly controlled here. Lobbyists are not given access to the Prime Minister or his Cabinet. Under conflict of interest laws they must report any contact and payments are not allowed. This is not to say it doesn't happen, but the media loves to access things under the freedom of information act and cause a scandal.

Right now there is a public inquiry into the behavior of a former prime minister for money he received after leaving office for contracts rewarded during his tenure. Contrast this with Dick Cheney who still receives salary while in office from Halliburton and the fact that Halliburton has received untendered contracts worth billions and that Cheney undoubtedly influenced the process. Hardly a whimper was heard from the U.S. press. Canadian media would not roll over and play dead in this way.

Canadian politicians must put all investments into a blind trust and must step down from all boards and companies that they own. Paul Martin, a former PM, had to turn his company over to his son while he was in office and he was prohibited from even giving advice to him.

It is not surprising that Canadians view American politics as a bit of a circus. It is like a reality show with lots of mud slinging and drama. Unfortunately it is all too real and the world bears the scars of the policies of whoever gets elected. Not just Americans suffer if Americans choose poorly.

Blessings,
Dunamite





Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: admin on Sat Nov 24, 2007 - 18:56:52
The bottom line is, do you trust the government to take all your money and decide what's done with it or would you rather get to make your own decisions? The church example is hardly justification for communism because the government is not the church.

You can never know who will be in charge next in terms of a government and what they will want to do. Therefore, I think it makes sense to keep the government's hands out of the people's pockets and the power in the hands of the people. America was founded by people who were tired of an England king taking their income and having too much power.

So the United States was founded on people choosing their leaders, being free to live their lives and free to earn as much or as little as they wanted AND to decide how they spend it. I say if you want something different, there are plenty of choices out there. Most of America's internal critics wouldn't dream of leaving. I think that's telling.

I hope we never give up our freedoms. I'll fight for mine. I can't believe we are even discussing this. I bet if government control in terms of our money were forced on us....most of those who are acting like it wouldn't be a big deal would realize just how serious and terrible it would be...and would probably be ready to fight it.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Sun Nov 25, 2007 - 12:38:02
The bottom line is, do you trust the government to take all your money and decide what's done with it or would you rather get to make your own decisions. The church example is hardly justification for communism because the government is not the church.

You can never know who will be in charge next in terms of a government and what they will want to do. Therefore, I think it makes sense to keep the government's hands out of the people's pockets and the power in the hands of the people. America was founded by people who were tired of an England king taking their income and having too much power.

So the United States was founded on people choosing their leaders, being free to live their lives and free to earn as much or as little as they wanted AND to decide how they spend it. I say if you want something different, there are plenty of choices out there. Most of America's internal critics wouldn't dream of leaving. I think that's telling.

I hope we never give up our freedoms. I'll fight for mine. I can't believe we are even discussing this. I bet it government control in terms of our money were forced on us....most of those who are acting like it wouldn't be a big deal would realize just how serious and terrible it would be...and would probably be ready to fight it.

To me it's not about control, but about making sure people are helped who need it.  I'm willing to give up some of my money to make sure others are taken care of.  The vast majority are too greedy to make that sacrifice, so we must help them make it.  Some people think they're "entitled" to it because they've schemed their way into the money.  I think that all money is God's and that the poor should be given some of the money, regardless of who lied cheated and stole their way into it.  I have zero sympathy for the money of the greedy rich.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Sun Nov 25, 2007 - 13:13:19
I have zero sympathy for the money of the greedy rich.

Greedy is not a characteristic of only the rich. It spans the entire spectrum of the human condition. The rich are a lot of times more visible with their greed and have perfected it. BTW, I would imagine EVERY American without many exceptions would seem hopelessly greedy to a Darfurian.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Sun Nov 25, 2007 - 14:07:35
I have zero sympathy for the money of the greedy rich.

Greedy is not a characteristic of only the rich. It spans the entire spectrum of the human condition. The rich are a lot of times more visible with their greed and have perfected it. BTW, I would imagine EVERY American without many exceptions would seem hopelessly greedy to a Darfurian.

So because of that we should not hold ourselves accountable to help the poor?  I'd rather force people to help than to let the poor suffer.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Sun Nov 25, 2007 - 15:15:20
I have zero sympathy for the money of the greedy rich.

Greedy is not a characteristic of only the rich. It spans the entire spectrum of the human condition. The rich are a lot of times more visible with their greed and have perfected it. BTW, I would imagine EVERY American without many exceptions would seem hopelessly greedy to a Darfurian.

So because of that we should not hold ourselves accountable to help the poor?  I'd rather force people to help than to let the poor suffer.

I didn't say that we shouldn't. My point is that we are all rich in this country. And by that in your definition we are all greedy.

Should we hold ourselves accountable, yes. Are people now being forced to help. Yes, it's called income tax. I have no problem with that. Personally I think the income tax needs to be more fair to everyone. The very rich have too many loop holes, and the middle class carries the load.

That's why I like Mike Huckabee. He is supporting a fair tax solution.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Sun Nov 25, 2007 - 15:54:40
....... The very rich have too many loop holes, and the middle class carries the load.



I apologize for the silly assertion I made here about the middle class carrying the tax load. I guess emotionally I was hoping it were true. Intellectually, though I know it not to be true per another thread started by Admin:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=19879.0 (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=19879.0)
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Sun Nov 25, 2007 - 22:34:26
I'd rather force people . . .

I'd rather treat people the way I want to be treated.

Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Mr. J on Mon Nov 26, 2007 - 00:10:07
Does nobody remember that there was once no welfare system in the US?  That individual people donated much more to the needy than goes to the needy through force of taxation?

Churches were the receivers of donations and and distributors of relief.  It was a wonderful system.  Nobody starved, no families were multi-generations welfare bums.

The problem with that system is that there was no way to wield power from it.  A socialist/communist system needed to be implemented so power and wealth could be drawn from a welfare system.  Keeping people down, keeping workers down to pay extravagant taxes, holding votes hostage.  My, my.  All of a sudden everything a totalitarian government cold want!  Money!  Power!  Hostage Votes!

What the young man asks for, he nearly has.  A decrepit system.

You ask for communism?  That shows the level of your naivety.  The very design of theoretical communism was a farce.  Nobody ever considered there was such a system that would work.  It was always purely a fairytale to get uneducated people to believe in long enough to get total power over them before they realized they'd been sold a bill of goods.  If you believe communism is even a possibility, you are of the uneducated.  Get some education, understand how power and control is grasped by the political elite of the world.  Communism is a strategy, not a form of government.  Until you understand that, you understand nothing.

If you are a Christian and have read Judges and Kings, you understand it was not God's intent that man have any government.

If you are an avid student of government, you will understand that the US is NOT a democracy.  If you don't understand why the US was never formed to be a democracy, then before running long conversations on a forum, you need to get yourself educated.  In a democracy, people have NO rights.  That is why our government wants democracies around the world and not republics.  Those democratic countries will never achieve any power.  Only in a republic is there a possibility of rights.

You want a form of totalitarianism that "forces" people.  Only two kinds of people want a communistic state.  The power hungry and greed crazed politicians who drool of the possibilities when a people are so stupid as to accept communism, and the lazy and morally corrupt who think they won't have to work, someone else will pay their way.  Be it the rich greedy, or the poor greedy, only the greedy and morally corrupt desire communism.

It is an abomination to rob from Peter to pay Paul.  Paul needs to work for what he needs, or go the the Church Peter willingly donates to for temporary assistance.

That is how this country ran for many decades, over a century.  A time when this country was building and growing and had moral fiber.  Now the condition of the nation's moral fiber (and education) is evident when a young, uneducated, person suggests that freedom be thrown to the pigs, greed replace patriotism, the willing horses be whipped, the lazy profit, the politicians become astronomically rich.  You don't even know you're morally corrupt.  Or maybe you do?
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Mon Nov 26, 2007 - 02:53:50
Does nobody remember that there was once no welfare system in the US?  That individual people donated much more to the needy than goes to the needy through force of taxation?

Churches were the receivers of donations and and distributors of relief.  It was a wonderful system.  Nobody starved, no families were multi-generations welfare bums.

The problem with that system is that there was no way to wield power from it.  A socialist/communist system needed to be implemented so power and wealth could be drawn from a welfare system.  Keeping people down, keeping workers down to pay extravagant taxes, holding votes hostage.  My, my.  All of a sudden everything a totalitarian government cold want!  Money!  Power!  Hostage Votes!

What the young man asks for, he nearly has.  A decrepit system.

You ask for communism?  That shows the level of your naivety.  The very design of theoretical communism was a farce.  Nobody ever considered there was such a system that would work.  It was always purely a fairytale to get uneducated people to believe in long enough to get total power over them before they realized they'd been sold a bill of goods.  If you believe communism is even a possibility, you are of the uneducated.  Get some education, understand how power and control is grasped by the political elite of the world.  Communism is a strategy, not a form of government.  Until you understand that, you understand nothing.

If you are a Christian and have read Judges and Kings, you understand it was not God's intent that man have any government.

If you are an avid student of government, you will understand that the US is NOT a democracy.  If you don't understand why the US was never formed to be a democracy, then before running long conversations on a forum, you need to get yourself educated.  In a democracy, people have NO rights.  That is why our government wants democracies around the world and not republics.  Those democratic countries will never achieve any power.  Only in a republic is there a possibility of rights.

You want a form of totalitarianism that "forces" people.  Only two kinds of people want a communistic state.  The power hungry and greed crazed politicians who drool of the possibilities when a people are so stupid as to accept communism, and the lazy and morally corrupt who think they won't have to work, someone else will pay their way.  Be it the rich greedy, or the poor greedy, only the greedy and morally corrupt desire communism.

It is an abomination to rob from Peter to pay Paul.  Paul needs to work for what he needs, or go the the Church Peter willingly donates to for temporary assistance.

That is how this country ran for many decades, over a century.  A time when this country was building and growing and had moral fiber.  Now the condition of the nation's moral fiber (and education) is evident when a young, uneducated, person suggests that freedom be thrown to the pigs, greed replace patriotism, the willing horses be whipped, the lazy profit, the politicians become astronomically rich.  You don't even know you're morally corrupt.  Or maybe you do?
Wow, we go from me wanting to make sure the poor get help (because the church doesn't donate enough), to me asking for totalitarianism.
I also never said that communism was a form of government...
As for "robbing" Peter to pay Paul, that's a common catchphrase among those who desperately want to keep their tax money.  How about robbing Peter to make roads so both Peter and Paul can travel?  How about robbing Peter to make sure the nation Peter lives in has a decent defense?  How about robbing Peter to make it so that the president of Peter's country doesn't need to have another full-time job?  Are these all horrible?  By your logic, it would be.
Give in to chaos so that you get to keep a bit more money.  How about we do away with workplace regulations and allow factories to exist again without proper facilities?  Government is so horrible right?  After all, it's all about money and profit!  That's all that should ever matter, right?  We don't need to take care of people so long as taxes don't need to be paid!  I mean, if you're for getting rid of taxes which pay for programs to help the poor, why not get rid of all of them?
I suppose making sure the poor can eat and get medical attention is more important to me than the space program. Sorry if that makes me morally corrupt...
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Mr. J on Mon Nov 26, 2007 - 03:49:28
OK, since this is a Christian forum, perhaps you can show us Biblically how God's people are to handle the situation of the poor.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Mon Nov 26, 2007 - 04:20:12
"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.  Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.  'For I was hungry, and you gave Me {something} to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me {something} to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'  Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You {something} to drink?  'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?  'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'  The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, {even} the least {of them,} you did it to Me.'  Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me {nothing} to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'  Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'  Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'  These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:32-46
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jimbob on Mon Nov 26, 2007 - 07:58:57
I'd rather force people . . .

I'd rather treat people the way I want to be treated.


Even Jesus doesn't force people.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Mr. J on Mon Nov 26, 2007 - 11:45:55
"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.  Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.  'For I was hungry, and you gave Me {something} to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me {something} to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'  Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You {something} to drink?  'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?  'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'  The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, {even} the least {of them,} you did it to Me.'  Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me {nothing} to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'  Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'  Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'  These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:32-46

That's a wonderful scripture you've quoted.  I don't see how it relates your suggestion that you force our nation into communism.  If anything, the scripture shows the freedom of choice and the consequences.  I hope this means you are seeing the light, otherwise I'd have to assume you also are attempting to save everyone by forcing them through communism to "give?"

Since you and I and everyone knows salvation does not work via force, then how about dropping the communism thing as a very bad idea and moving on?
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Mon Nov 26, 2007 - 11:48:17
"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.  Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.  'For I was hungry, and you gave Me {something} to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me {something} to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'  Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You {something} to drink?  'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?  'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'  The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, {even} the least {of them,} you did it to Me.'  Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me {nothing} to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'  Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'  Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'  These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:32-46

That's a wonderful scripture you've quoted.  I don't see how it relates your suggestion that you force our nation into communism.  If anything, the scripture shows the freedom of choice and the consequences.  I hope this means you are seeing the light, otherwise I'd have to assume you also are attempting to save everyone by forcing them through communism to "give?"

Since you and I and everyone knows salvation does not work via force, then how about dropping the communism thing as a very bad idea and moving on?

Yeah, I agree Brian. Also you may already be on some evil government watch lists for being a subversive.

 ::smile::
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Mon Nov 26, 2007 - 14:25:44
"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.  Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.  'For I was hungry, and you gave Me {something} to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me {something} to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'  Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You {something} to drink?  'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?  'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'  The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, {even} the least {of them,} you did it to Me.'  Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me {nothing} to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'  Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'  Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'  These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:32-46

That's a wonderful scripture you've quoted.  I don't see how it relates your suggestion that you force our nation into communism.  If anything, the scripture shows the freedom of choice and the consequences.  I hope this means you are seeing the light, otherwise I'd have to assume you also are attempting to save everyone by forcing them through communism to "give?"

Since you and I and everyone knows salvation does not work via force, then how about dropping the communism thing as a very bad idea and moving on?
You asked me specifically to quote scripture regarding how God's people should handle the situation with the poor.  I did that.  I didn't relate it to anything.
I didn't say I wanted to force people into communism.  I was initially trying to find whether the people in the first church, in the book of Acts, lived similarly to the way communism (an economic theory, not a governmental system) was theoretically supposed to work.  It seemed to me that they did.  However, people are so afraid of the word "communism" that they didn't even consider what I was saying, I don't think.  Maybe I'm wrong.
Bottom line, if you would rather see people die than legislate taxation for helping the poor, that's your right (protected by the military which is paid by those same taxes).  It's my right to have more compassion than that.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: admin on Mon Nov 26, 2007 - 15:35:02
Brian,

I'd rather (AND DO) help the poor by my own ways which includes money and other things. I think that's better than the government doing it because most of that money goes to pay welfare agents or fund pet projects that make little or no difference.

And there is a principle that says giving a man a fish only keeps him needing the to ask for more fish instead of being able to get it for himself. I resent and completely disagree with you suggesting that I am not compassionate about the poor because I don't want the government to take a large chunk of the money that work hard for. Do you actually trust the government to make good use of those funds? The welfare system is a joke. Private citizens could do far better. And on top of that, the "poor" in America are wildly wealthy compared to most of the world. Also, consider reading this letter that Abraham Lincoln wrote to his brother (http://this letter that Abraham Lincoln wrote to his brother).
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Mon Nov 26, 2007 - 15:39:45
The welfare system as we know it doesn't work, but that doesn't mean that no system will work.

How do we take care of people who really need it if enough private citizens don't voluntarily donate?  That's all I want to know.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Mon Nov 26, 2007 - 16:19:09
The welfare system as we know it doesn't work, but that doesn't mean that no system will work.

How do we take care of people who really need it if enough private citizens don't voluntarily donate?  That's all I want to know.

Ask the tsunami victims in Indonesia where they would be without AMERICAN help, mostly from private sources, too.

Americans are good, generous people. Especially and even without government forcing them to be. Can we do better? probably so. Will the solution be better with more government involvement? I say probably not.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Mon Nov 26, 2007 - 16:21:18
Okay... I see I'm not getting anywhere with my questions.  Fair enough.  Nice discussion regardless, everyone.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Mon Nov 26, 2007 - 16:48:34
Okay... I see I'm not getting anywhere with my questions.  Fair enough.  Nice discussion regardless, everyone.

Did I not address your question about what if enough private citizens don't donate? I have all the faith in the world in the generosity of our private citizens. Sorry if a direct answer is not what you are looking for.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Mon Nov 26, 2007 - 16:57:00
Okay... I see I'm not getting anywhere with my questions.  Fair enough.  Nice discussion regardless, everyone.

Did I not address your question about what if enough private citizens don't donate? I have all the faith in the world in the generosity of our private citizens. Sorry if a direct answer is not what you are looking for.
I was looking for a direct answer in a hypothetical situation.  The hypothetical situation I put forward is that there aren't enough private citizens donating or the private citizens who donate aren't donating enough to take care of the needs of the poor.  I'm asking a question based on that hypothetical situation.  Nobody is willing to even consider that situation in giving me an answer.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Bon Voyage on Mon Nov 26, 2007 - 16:59:27
The welfare system as we know it doesn't work, but that doesn't mean that no system will work.

How do we take care of people who really need it if enough private citizens don't voluntarily donate?  That's all I want to know.

How do you motivate folks when they know that Uncle Sam is gonna do it anyway?
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Mon Nov 26, 2007 - 17:09:32
The welfare system as we know it doesn't work, but that doesn't mean that no system will work.

How do we take care of people who really need it if enough private citizens don't voluntarily donate?  That's all I want to know.

How do you motivate folks when they know that Uncle Sam is gonna do it anyway?

Perhaps we could preach the gospel.  Gary, do you have an answer to my question.  This is what is bothering me about the issue, and nobody has been able to answer it without simply posing a counter question.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Mon Nov 26, 2007 - 18:26:41
The welfare system as we know it doesn't work, but that doesn't mean that no system will work.

How do we take care of people who really need it if enough private citizens don't voluntarily donate?  That's all I want to know.

How do you motivate folks when they know that Uncle Sam is gonna do it anyway?

Perhaps we could preach the gospel.  Gary, do you have an answer to my question.  This is what is bothering me about the issue, and nobody has been able to answer it without simply posing a counter question.

Outside of using force as you advocate, we will be showing the kind of people that we really are instead of what we will do because there's a gun to our head.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Mon Nov 26, 2007 - 18:28:32
Okay... I see I'm not getting anywhere with my questions.  Fair enough.  Nice discussion regardless, everyone.

Did I not address your question about what if enough private citizens don't donate? I have all the faith in the world in the generosity of our private citizens. Sorry if a direct answer is not what you are looking for.
I was looking for a direct answer in a hypothetical situation.  The hypothetical situation I put forward is that there aren't enough private citizens donating or the private citizens who donate aren't donating enough to take care of the needs of the poor.  I'm asking a question based on that hypothetical situation.  Nobody is willing to even consider that situation in giving me an answer.

Well to answer your question, I would have to know what you consider enough? I contend private citizens are being rather generous especially to their church coffers. It seems that church's these days are your problem and not stingy private citizens. Churches are more interested in building monumental buildings and gathering up high paid pastors for expensive church programs, rather than funnelling enough of the more than adequate funds collected to the poor.

Summary, it's not the private citizen' generousity, it's the church's priorities.

Sorry for being snippy with you in my previous post. I really thought I answered your question before. But maybe this time I hit what you are looking for.

The church's have the where-with-all, the question is do they have the will.

BTW, answering a question with a question is not at all unusual on this board.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Dunamite on Mon Nov 26, 2007 - 20:06:37
Capitalism, like pure (never seen) communism is most likely neutral, not unChristian.  Capitalists, like Communists are often unChristian.  See the difference?
Capitalism is an economics system and should not be confused with democracy.

Capitalism is based on greed. This is a value judgment, but it is a fair judgment based on history and the ideals which capitalism upholds.

In simplest terms capitalism involves the accumulation of capital. Capital is used to control the means of production and the produce more capital. Competition in the beginning serves to make capitalism efficient, but as competitors are forced out of business or are gobbled up capital falls into fewer and fewer hands and monopoly develops.

The idea behind capitalism is the accumulation of personal wealth which is the essence of greed. Work is a commodity like anything else. In order to be profitable labor costs are to be kept as low as possible. Workers have historically suffered under capitalism. The excesses of the industrial revolution spawned communism and socialism. They reform of labor practices has been paved with the blood of workers in every country. People are expendable in capitalism. They are to be used up and replaced in the same way other resources are used. The environment and workers are casualties of unchecked capitalism.

The police and the state have traditionally sided with the robber barons of the past. Now a minimum wage, pensions, and safe working conditions are commonplace but once they were non-existent.

Communism as formulated by Marx and Engels is based on three principles: the class struggle, the dictatorship of the proletariat, and the withering of the state. All struggle in society in Marx's scheme of things is based on class struggle in which the bourgeoisie exploit the workers (proletariat). The works must seize control of the means of production and therefore gain control over their own labor. This is by necessity violent since the bourgeoisie will not surrender control voluntarily. This means revolution. The result will be the establishment of the dictatorship of the proletariat or a worker state. Through time workers will create a state where they control the means of production and all society will benefit. At this point the state will begin to wither.

I am not a communist, but I can see its appeal to the downtrodden. In practice communist states have been no better than their capitalist predecessors. Many people like to trot out the excesses of Stalinism to critique communism. Few people of these people recognize the abuses that occurred under czarism or in industrial Europe. They point to the lack of civil rights in China as just cause for condemning communism. However, truthfully China has a long history of abusing civil rights. It comes from any form of despotism which by definition lacks accountability.

I am a a critic of capitalism because I live in a capitalist society. I witness the abuses first hand and therefore consider it to be my right and responsibility to call them as I see them. I can only speak of communism as an outsider.

Capitalism is far from neutral. To say so is to ignore the nature of capitalism which is to make as much money as possible by giving as little as possible to the workers and to protection the environment. It is all about maximizing profits to benefit a small percentage of the populace.

A common assumption that is made is that capitalists deserve the money they make which they have earned by hard work and innovation. Sometimes this is the case, but often or not it is a false assumption. It also assumes that the playing field is level and that these people have no competitive advantage. This is usually not the case.

The playing field has never been equal. Laws reward greed, protect property and generally serve to keep the poor in their place. You can't create wealth. This is a misnomer. What you merely succeed in doing is to redistribute it by taking from some to give to others. You can't have a wealthy class without creating a poor class. The wealthier they become the poorer others become. The opposite of this is where everyone has the same thing which is distasteful to capitalists because it takes away their right to exploit the weak and to enrich themselves.

Blessings,
Dunamite
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Dunamite on Mon Nov 26, 2007 - 20:43:25
The bottom line is, do you trust the government to take all your money and decide what's done with it or would you rather get to make your own decisions. The church example is hardly justification for communism because the government is not the church.

You can never know who will be in charge next in terms of a government and what they will want to do. Therefore, I think it makes sense to keep the government's hands out of the people's pockets and the power in the hands of the people. America was founded by people who were tired of an England king taking their income and having too much power.

So the United States was founded on people choosing their leaders, being free to live their lives and free to earn as much or as little as they wanted AND to decide how they spend it. I say if you want something different, there are plenty of choices out there. Most of America's internal critics wouldn't dream of leaving. I think that's telling.

I hope we never give up our freedoms. I'll fight for mine. I can't believe we are even discussing this. I bet it government control in terms of our money were forced on us....most of those who are acting like it wouldn't be a big deal would realize just how serious and terrible it would be...and would probably be ready to fight it.
Your comment begins and ends with false assumptions. You assume that the money is deserved. You assume that you are free. Neither of these things can be assumed.

The United states was founded by intellectuals and men of privilege. It was based on stealing land from the aboriginal people and marginalizing them. This was the beginning of exploiting others. It also involved in imperialist expansion and dogma such as manifest destiny.

American history is full of battles between to advantaged and the disadvantaged whether it was range wars between the ranchers and the farmers or the robber barons and police barricades attacking workers on strike for a fair wage.

The government has a role to play. Capitalism unchecked creates ghettos and shanty towns not prosperous family neighborhoods. Remember the company towns of the past? People need to benefit from their labor or their is not hope and hope breeds anger and resentment. Many of the racial problems of the past are socioeconomic in nature.

Keeping people on the bottom may seem desirable to some, but it has proven to be too costly for society. When we give a helping hand to others everybody wins. Their are fewer problems and lives are not wasted. Genius knows no racial or economic bounds. If we educate the poor they give back to society, if we keep them down then we end up wasting lives and spend more in fighting crime and disease.

Capitalism has never been a champion of the poor. Capitalists will not reform without being obligated to. The exception to this was Henry Ford who was a genius in more ways than one. He paid his workers an outrageous wage at the time. Several time what other capitalists were paying. He was a laughing stock for a long time. His logic was that he wanted to create a market for his vehicles and the middle class was born.

Now the middle class is shrinking. Government and corporations have played a big part in this. Corporate taxes have shrunk with handouts to corporations in the form of tax breaks. Government has grown, but programs for the poor have shrunk. Tax revenue is re-routed to corporations with huge government contracts and programs that only serve to help corporations. Left out of all of this is the people and that is who government is supposed to be for, the people. Trickle down economics is a failure as the gap between in the rich and poor is at an all time high.

America is facing an economic crisis. Jobs going off shore are the least of our problems. Should the dollar cease to be the economic trade standard America face a debt crisis of unheard of proportions. The huge debt and balance of payments deficit will come back to roost. America does not have to worry about China's military might. They hold enough economic clout that they can cause more damage than bombs. A few months back a Chinese official traveled to Washington to tell Bush to jump in the lake when the administration tried to get them to re-evaluate the yuan upwards. He told Bush hands off and he threatened to turn the U.S. into a banana republic if they persisted.

Logic tells us that it isn't in China's best interest to sink the U.S. but that may not always be the case. They are already diversifying and using Euros as well as dollars for trade. Venezuela and Iran also trade in Euros. Iran is more of an economic threat that a military one. If the U.S. or by proxy Israel attacks Iran it will be for economic as well as political reasons.

Bush is playing a game of brinkmanship with Iran because he has boxed himself in with his expensive war in Iraq and weak economic policies. Wars are about money. They are about protecting the interests of the wealthy, creating and protecting their markets and redistributing wealth, making poor nations poorer and wealthy nations wealthier.

Blessings,
Dunamite
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jimbob on Mon Nov 26, 2007 - 21:03:44
Dunamite, I don't have the time nor the inclination to go through you post point by point and take on the several things with which I disagree.  I will say that I did not confuse democracy and capitalism, though I think you are assuming too much where greed is concerned.  Greed certainly grows well in the soil of capitalism, but to paint with such a broad brush that it always leads to capitalism, or worse, that it always has greed at its foundation is just not so, and would have to assume a moral and ethical vacuum.  That is why I said it is generally neutral.  Those with a morality and ethic that values good for their neighbor, stewardship to God, and a condemnation of greed will find that a capitalistic economy does not demand them to compromise those values.  Those given to greed and exploitation of man and resources will, unfortunately, also find that it will not demand of them a conscience.

Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Dunamite on Mon Nov 26, 2007 - 22:01:10
Dunamite, I don't have the time nor the inclination to go through you post point by point and take on the several things with which I disagree.  I will say that I did not confuse democracy and capitalism, though I think you are assuming too much where greed is concerned.  Greed certainly grows well in the soil of capitalism, but to paint with such a broad brush that it always leads to capitalism, or worse, that it always has greed at its foundation is just not so, and would have to assume a moral and ethical vacuum.  That is why I said it is generally neutral.  Those with a morality and ethic that values good for their neighbor, stewardship to God, and a condemnation of greed will find that a capitalistic economy does not demand them to compromise those values.  Those given to greed and exploitation of man and resources will, unfortunately, also find that it will not demand of them a conscience.


Greed does not lead to capitalism. Greed flourishes in capitalism. Capitalism is about the accumulation of personal wealth. Making profit and acquiring wealth is its reason for being. Greed is selfish desire. Capitalism is selfish because it focuses on the individual and not the community or society in general. It is certainly desirable for capitalists to acquire wealth.

I am not just playing at semantics. All of history bears out my assertion. Despite centuries of western capitalism poverty still exists. The gap between rich and poor has grown. We have outrageous wealth and outrageous poverty globally. Capitalism is exploitive and predatory. Capitalism knows no boundaries. It seeks the lowest common denominator. As labor becomes expensive in one country it moves to another country. What is common to the experience of all people under capitalism is that jobs will go to those who are prepared to work for less.

Capitalism is an outgrowth of feudalism in Europe in which workers were bound to the land and were property of the of lord of the manor. They had few rights. They could not vote and had little control of their own labor. They worked hard and died young. There is a continuum from now to the past in which rights were fought for and given gradually and grudgingly. Lots of blood was shed. Capitalism was unchecked until governments stepped in. Pensions and better working conditions were not given by companies, but fought for by workers and legislated only after the government saw their folly in propping up robber barons.

I have a degree in political science I have made a lifetime study of these things. I am willing to debate them if you wish. But history is on my side. We can go back as far as you want, but you will not find much support for capitalism voluntarily bettering the lives of workers.

I am not ignoring the work of industrialists turned philanthropists, but they turned to philanthropy once their position was assured and I am sure that the Carnegies of the world had good reason to try to redeem themselves in the eyes of the world or perhaps just for their own conscience.

No history is told without bias. The bias of many people here is obvious, as is mine. I cannot rewrite history, but I refuse to gloss over the injustices of the past simply to salve the conscience of people who live the good life in our materialist consumer based society while ignoring the sweatshops and atrocious working conditions that give us cheap goods from abroad.

Blessings,
dunamite
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jimbob on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 06:58:16
I think your interpreting the facts through your foregone conclusions.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Bon Voyage on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 07:17:27
The problems with capitalism and soylent green are one and the same.  IT'S PEOPLE!
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 07:25:11
George Gilder was right when he said "Greed is an appetite for unneeded and unearned wealth and power.  The truly greedy seek comfort and security first.  They seek goods and clout they have not earned.  Because the best and safest way to gain unearned pay is to get the state to take it from others, greed leads, as by an invisible hand, toward ever more government action - to socialism, not capitalism."

What makes free market capitalism so wonderful?  It is an aristocracy of merit.  To prosper, you must serve.



Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 10:03:09
George Gilder was right when he said "Greed is an appetite for unneeded and unearned wealth and power.  The truly greedy seek comfort and security first.  They seek goods and clout they have not earned.  Because the best and safest way to gain unearned pay is to get the state to take it from others, greed leads, as by an invisible hand, toward ever more government action - to socialism, not capitalism."

What makes free market capitalism so wonderful?  It is an aristocracy of merit.  To prosper, you must serve.





I don't see ths as being true at all.  To prosper, you must make lucky investment choices.  Investment has no service in it whatsoever.  In fact, one of the main communist principles is a Biblical one:  If you don't work, you don't eat.  That sounds like exactly what you're looking for...
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jimbob on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 11:44:49
Just curious about your assumption, Brian.  Why would the investments only be lucky ones?  Why not educated and wise ones? 

--------------------------------

To the thread in general, it seems that there has been a poor assumption on the part of some that exploitation of the poor is worse in free market societies.  History does not show this.  Remember the glory days of Marxist-Leninist socialism?  Exploitation out the wazoo.  Remember Mao?  Ditto. 

The problem, as Gary eloquently put it, is people.  And people bent on power at the cost of their neighbor will bend any system you dump them in to their exploits.  A free enterprise system based on individual freedom and property ownership may not be perfect, but show me one alternative that's managed to avoid all pitfalls of power and greed, and I'll show you a fantasy world.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 11:47:07
Just curious about your assumption, Brian.  Why would the investments only be lucky ones?  Why not educated and wise ones? 

Even an educated guess can be wrong.  All investments have a luck factor.  Even so, it's still not an issue of service when one invests.  That was my point.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jimbob on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 11:49:17
Just curious about your assumption, Brian.  Why would the investments only be lucky ones?  Why not educated and wise ones? 

Even an educated guess can be wrong.  All investments have a luck factor.  Even so, it's still not an issue of service when one invests.  That was my point.
How is it not an issue of service?  You're providing your hard-earned dollars to a company to be used as capital so that they can then work hard and produce a profit that may come back as a return to you.  You've provided the service of capital to one who needed it, and you've both gained. 
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 13:58:29
Just curious about your assumption, Brian.  Why would the investments only be lucky ones?  Why not educated and wise ones? 

Even an educated guess can be wrong.  All investments have a luck factor.  Even so, it's still not an issue of service when one invests.  That was my point.
How is it not an issue of service?  You're providing your hard-earned dollars to a company to be used as capital so that they can then work hard and produce a profit that may come back as a return to you.  You've provided the service of capital to one who needed it, and you've both gained. 
It would be nice if it was all based on hard work.  It's more likely based on timing and luck.  At some point it stops being hard work and starts being greed and taking advantage of others (who may be putting in hard work).  How often have Wal-Mart stores overpowered people who wanted to start their own stores by taking advantage of their situations?  The hard work stopped at some point and the monster that is Wal-Mart today was born and has been making sure people have to work for them instead of starting their own small stores because they can't keep up with the huge distribution centers and other deals that the Waltons can make.  Are you seriously in the belief that by investing in Wal-Mart you're providing a service to the company that they need, and this is a good thing?  You think that the average investor does so because he's providing a service?  Be truthful.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jimbob on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 14:23:53
Well, you might want to edit that post.  The "be truthful" could be taken offensively, you know.  You don't want to go there.

Anywho, I think it's interesting that you bring up WalMart.  Is it the only company that exists, and because some of its actions have been bad, therefore all companies and all investors and all its workers are bad?  Seems that's what your saying, but that's broad-brushing to an extreme.  Why the seeming all-or-nothing view?
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 14:36:37
First, be truthful wasn't meant to be offensive.  If I have offended you, I apologize.  I meant only that you (and anyone else who posts) should make sure you're truthful with yourself before posting.

As for Wal-Mart, that was just an example.  I could give many examples of many companies.  Did you not like my example?  I could say Microsoft, Apple, GMC, Time-Warner, or even WorldCom instead if you wish.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Bon Voyage on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 14:48:31
First, be truthful wasn't meant to be offensive.  If I have offended you, I apologize.  I meant only that you (and anyone else who posts) should make sure you're truthful with yourself before posting.

As for Wal-Mart, that was just an example.  I could give many examples of many companies.  Did you not like my example?  I could say Microsoft, Apple, GMC, Time-Warner, or even WorldCom instead if you wish.

Do you own a car or buy clothes or cd's or computers, etc.  If so, are you enabling greed?
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 14:58:02
First, be truthful wasn't meant to be offensive.  If I have offended you, I apologize.  I meant only that you (and anyone else who posts) should make sure you're truthful with yourself before posting.

As for Wal-Mart, that was just an example.  I could give many examples of many companies.  Did you not like my example?  I could say Microsoft, Apple, GMC, Time-Warner, or even WorldCom instead if you wish.

Do you own a car or buy clothes or cd's or computers, etc.  If so, are you enabling greed?

Yes and no.  You see no difference between purchasing and investing?  Even so, when purchasing, you buy something not to give back to society, but so that you can cover yourself or eat or drive, etc.  When investing, I don't know anyone who invests simply to help out the poor struggling multimillion dollar corporation, but to help themselves get more money.  It isn't an issue of service.  That was my point.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jimbob on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 16:19:29
You're kidding, right?  There are even mutual funds that are designed specifically to invest in companies that fit your values.  A friend who's a financial planner has a folder of funds specifically for people who only want to support companies with good ethical products and histories (he calls them the Baptist Funds).  Others focus on helping smaller businesses get off the ground, others help developing countries, you can find very specific funds.  Others help small farmers (like FairTrade) so they won't be taken over by big conglomerates. 

It's just not as black and white as you seem to be painting it.  There really are good companies out there, whether you see them or not.  I just find it way too easy to name those that are often in the news and then broad-brush every company on earth as though the evils of one are the evils of all.  All such an approach guarantees is the probability that you'll be pointing the finger of false accusation at some folks.

Perhaps part of the problem is that people are looking at all these worldly systems dominated by people outside of Christ and  ::headscratch:: why they aren't acting Christian.  You can't expect the world to live according to principles they've not bought into.  The system is not really the problem (I'd even say this of others such as communism and socialism).  Again,  ::frustrated:: it's the people.  Even systems designed by God Himself (Israel, for example) were easily corrupted when people made immoral choices.  The only way to see things better is to win more to the way of Christ and repentance.  Outside of that, by changing or fixing systems alone, you're really just painting leaves green and gluing back onto a dead tree.

Unless, of course, you've come up with an incorruptible system.  Others have tried.....and failed because they couldn't exempt their system from the influence and failure of people.  If you've got those solutions, have at it.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jimbob on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 16:21:40
http://money.cnn.com/2001/11/28/funds/q_funds_social/index.htm
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: admin on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 20:26:40
Unless, of course, you've come up with an incorruptible system.  Others have tried.....and failed because they couldn't exempt their system from the influence and failure of people.  If you've got those solutions, have at it.

Exactly! And rulers/governments are made up of imperfect people who could easily be corrupted by power. That's why it's far better NOT to have them decide how much money you get to live on and what you have to do with that money. OR even how much food you get. It's best to keep their hands OFF of as much as possible. It's far better in a free market society like ours where anyone can see a need and meet that need and their compensation has the sky as the limit based on how much time they want to work and effort they want to put into it--MOST of the time. That's far more fair and much less easier to abuse. Just look at all the poor people in America who have become wealthy. Or children who had poor upbringings (like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet) who become wealthy. In a socialist or communist system, you have NO SAY whatsoever concerning your economic status. Certain people get a lot and certain people a little. At least in a free market (capitalist) society you have some say and opportunity to make a good, great or even incredible situation for yourself.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 20:32:01
George Gilder was right when he said "Greed is an appetite for unneeded and unearned wealth and power.  The truly greedy seek comfort and security first.  They seek goods and clout they have not earned.  Because the best and safest way to gain unearned pay is to get the state to take it from others, greed leads, as by an invisible hand, toward ever more government action - to socialism, not capitalism."

What makes free market capitalism so wonderful?  It is an aristocracy of merit.  To prosper, you must serve.





I don't see ths as being true at all.  To prosper, you must make lucky investment choices.  Investment has no service in it whatsoever.  In fact, one of the main communist principles is a Biblical one:  If you don't work, you don't eat.  That sounds like exactly what you're looking for...

And what makes a good investment choice?  Investing in the company that, according to the market (which can be in the millions or billions, depending on the product or service) gives people the best value.  That is, those who have done the best job serving their fellow man.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 20:38:54
Unless, of course, you've come up with an incorruptible system.  Others have tried.....and failed because they couldn't exempt their system from the influence and failure of people.  If you've got those solutions, have at it.

Exactly! And rulers/governments are made up of imperfect people who could easily be corrupted by power. That's why it's far better NOT to have them decide how much money you get to live on and what you have to do with that money. OR even how much food you get. It's best to keep their hands OFF of as much as possible. It's far better in a free market society like ours where anyone can see a need and meet that need and their compensation has the sky as the limit based on how much time they want to work and effort they want to put into it--MOST of the time. That's far more fair and much less easier to abuse. Just look at all the poor people in America who have become wealthy. Or children who had poor upbringings (like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet) who become wealthy. In a socialist or communist system, you have NO SAY whatsoever concerning your economic status. Certain people get a lot and certain people a little. At least in a free market (capitalist) society you have some say and opportunity to make a good, great or even incredible situation for yourself.

Yep.  The ONLY economic system compatible with individual liberty is the free market.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 21:13:36
I guess I just don't buy this "Whoever makes the most money must be serving their fellow man the most" philosophy.  I don't see its evidence in the largest scale: in companies that force others to become bankrupt and lose hundreds of jobs, etc.

Also, pure free market with no regulations is what causes outsourcing and cheap child labor.  There has to be some regulations.  Who gets to decide where they stop?
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 21:23:43
I guess I just don't buy this "Whoever makes the most money must be serving their fellow man the most" philosophy.  I don't see its evidence in the largest scale: in companies that force others to become bankrupt and lose hundreds of jobs, etc.

Also, pure free market with no regulations is what causes outsourcing and cheap child labor.  There has to be some regulations.  Who gets to decide where they stop?

I buy it because it's true.  Toyota has done a better job of serving people than Studebaker.  Would your approach be to tax people and give it to Studebaker?  The folks that worked there did lose their jobs, you know. 

And what's wrong with outsourcing?  You do it yourself every time you spend money.  I don't like child labor any more than anyone else, that's why I don't knowlingly buy products made by kids.  So, that's the answer to your question.  Who gets to decide where they stop?  Well, I do, for one, because I won't buy.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 21:29:51
I guess I just don't buy this "Whoever makes the most money must be serving their fellow man the most" philosophy.  I don't see its evidence in the largest scale: in companies that force others to become bankrupt and lose hundreds of jobs, etc.

Also, pure free market with no regulations is what causes outsourcing and cheap child labor.  There has to be some regulations.  Who gets to decide where they stop?

I buy it because it's true.  Toyota has done a better job of serving people than Studebaker.  Would your approach be to tax people and give it to Studebaker?  The folks that worked there did lose their jobs, you know. 

And what's wrong with outsourcing?  You do it yourself every time you spend money.  I don't like child labor any more than anyone else, that's why I don't knowlingly buy products made by kids.  So, that's the answer to your question.  Who gets to decide where they stop?  Well, I do, for one, because I won't buy.


So you alone not buying stuff will stop child labor?  Or it is okay in your conscience because YOU aren't buying the stuff they make?  Overall regulations could shut down the child labor industry or at least give it a lethal blow.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 21:45:42
I guess I just don't buy this "Whoever makes the most money must be serving their fellow man the most" philosophy.  I don't see its evidence in the largest scale: in companies that force others to become bankrupt and lose hundreds of jobs, etc.

Also, pure free market with no regulations is what causes outsourcing and cheap child labor.  There has to be some regulations.  Who gets to decide where they stop?

I buy it because it's true.  Toyota has done a better job of serving people than Studebaker.  Would your approach be to tax people and give it to Studebaker?  The folks that worked there did lose their jobs, you know. 

And what's wrong with outsourcing?  You do it yourself every time you spend money.  I don't like child labor any more than anyone else, that's why I don't knowlingly buy products made by kids.  So, that's the answer to your question.  Who gets to decide where they stop?  Well, I do, for one, because I won't buy.


So you alone not buying stuff will stop child labor?  Or it is okay in your conscience because YOU aren't buying the stuff they make?  Overall regulations could shut down the child labor industry or at least give it a lethal blow.

I can't stop it all by myself, but I don't have such a lofty view of my own sense of decency that I think I stand alone in this.  However, we need to remember that child labor isn't always a bad thing.  Back when we were a more agrarian society one of the reasons families had lots of kids so they could help dad out in the field.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 21:59:12
not sit in a sweatshop for fourteen hours a day for maybe a nickel an hour if they're lucky, though.

There's a big difference between chores and child labor.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 22:24:42
Brian, not every investment is inherently "Hillary Lucky". Investments that have a high potential for a high return, also have a propensity for a high risk in losing your investment.

In the 70's my parents had a small bank CD that made them about 10 to 12% return. That was an investment with little to no risk. Now a CD returns much less, so to get a reasonable return, more risk has to be taken in the mutual fund market.

In the oil business, about 9 out of 10 wells are dry holes. Depending on the depth drilled here in West Texas, they cost $1,000,000 to $5,000,000 per hole. Only folks with a sense of sadistic adventure have the guts to gamble with those odds. Yes the reward is great, but the risk is suicidal. I'm talking small to medium independents. I'm not talking international oil and gas conglomerates. If it were easy it would be like Eddie Chiles used to say tongue in cheek in his Western Company radio ad, "If you don't have an oil well, get one." I used to work for an individual that lost over a quarter of a billion dollars on two different occasions. I am naive enough to only try and fail once. Point is investment is what makes this country what it is, and why everyone wants to come here. It ain't because we have the greatest government regulatory intrusion in the world, it's because we have the greates economic freedom the world has ever seen.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 22:28:02
Of course investment doesn't always work out.

My point is that investment isn't always service to your fellow man.  In fact, I'd argue that if your goal is to improve yourself, you aren't serving your fellow man at all, but trying to improve yourself.  One cannot serve God and money.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 22:39:51
Investment is not inherently evil Brian. It is simply a tool to be a good steward with one's resources. Lots of people that have done well with their investments are contributing generously to God's work everywhere. I'm as worker class as anyone, but it is naive to believe that rich equals selfish and evil. Yes there are selfish and evil rich people, but selfish and evil are not limited to only those with $200,000 plus incomes. I have several friends at church that are very well off (first generation wealthy) and I stand in awe at their generousity, and humble spirit at who's money it really is.

I have another friend at church that his family owns 120 square miles of ranch land in the area with 600 producing Texaco oil wells. The family has a charitable foundation that gives on the average of $50 million dollars a year to private colleges, hospitals, and other good causes. There is a good chance that the college you attended has a building named after them. This family is mega wealthy, but I guarantee you couldn't pick them out of a crowd if your life depended on it. Very humble people.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 22:45:32
Investment is not inherently evil, but it is also not a service to mankind.  You're not serving if you're main goal is self-improvement.  We can separately discuss whether self-improvement is good or evil, but service to others and self-improvement are two completely different things.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Tue Nov 27, 2007 - 23:54:43
Of course investment doesn't always work out.

My point is that investment isn't always service to your fellow man.  In fact, I'd argue that if your goal is to improve yourself, you aren't serving your fellow man at all, but trying to improve yourself.  One cannot serve God and money.

You're right, Brian.  All the assets such as the factories, machinery, equipment, etc that people use to make things and provide services to others just sorta spring into existence on their own and there's really no need for investors.

Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 00:05:11
Investment is not inherently evil, but it is also not a service to mankind.  You're not serving if you're main goal is self-improvement.  We can separately discuss whether self-improvement is good or evil, but service to others and self-improvement are two completely different things.

Bullbutter. 

Investment is inherently a service to mankind.  Rational people only make an investment when the expected returns are acceptable.  They know that they will only be acceptable when they meet with the approval of the eventual customer.

I invested in a rental property this past March.  Did I do it because I was concerned that the renter and her child could be sleeping outside?  No.  I did it in search of a desired return.  Is she paying me rent because she is concerned about my ability to pay my bills?  No.  She is renting because she doesn't want to sleep outside.  The only reason the transaction takes place is because both she and I figure we are both coming out ahead.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jimbob on Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 06:55:57
Investment is not inherently evil, but it is also not a service to mankind.  You're not serving if you're main goal is self-improvement.  We can separately discuss whether self-improvement is good or evil, but service to others and self-improvement are two completely different things.
The same thing that's been gnawing at me throughout this discussion raises its head here again.  You keep impuning motive, as though you've got a window into every man and woman's heart.  You cannot just keep broad-brushing every worker, investor, businessperson, corporation, small business owner, etc. as having greedy, or self-centered-only motivations.  The facts simply don't support such a one-size-fits-all outlook.  See Jaime's example of his friends.  If you want to say, "There are many who are greedy, exploitative, etc." that's one thing.  But you keep talking like it's everyone one, and again, that denies the good that some are doing...which in turn denies the good God is doing through some.  It's an inaccurate and unfair portrayal.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 07:27:17
Brian there is nothing on this planet more "service to mankind" than a good job. Which of course is only put forth because someone decided to invest, except of course for a government job. Therefore investment is very much service oriented to mankind, though most of the time indirectly related, but you can't necessarily separate the two. The country can't exist on totally altruistic enterprise, but all enterprise affects a job. Which is the ultimate welfare program.

In the parable of the talents, Jesus included the part where the master admonished the one talent servant because he did not even put the talent in the bank so he could have interest.
(An investment by the way)

ASV
Mat 25:27  thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the bankers, and at my coming I should have received back mine own with interest.

The Message
Mat 25:27  The least you could have done would have been to invest the sum with the bankers, where at least I would have gotten a little interest.

Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 07:31:11
Investment is not inherently evil, but it is also not a service to mankind.  You're not serving if you're main goal is self-improvement.  We can separately discuss whether self-improvement is good or evil, but service to others and self-improvement are two completely different things.
The same thing that's been gnawing at me throughout this discussion raises its head here again.  You keep impuning motive, as though you've got a window into every man and woman's heart.  You cannot just keep broad-brushing every worker, investor, businessperson, corporation, small business owner, etc. as having greedy, or self-centered-only motivations.  The facts simply don't support such a one-size-fits-all outlook.  See Jaime's example of his friends.  If you want to say, "There are many who are greedy, exploitative, etc." that's one thing.  But you keep talking like it's everyone one, and again, that denies the good that some are doing...which in turn denies the good God is doing through some.  It's an inaccurate and unfair portrayal.

If you have a good or service I want to buy at a mutually agreed upon price, why would I give a rip what your motive is?
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 12:15:24
Jack works for the mob, but he gets these "tokens of service" from the don, so he must be servicing his fellow man right?  How about the expatriate who works for a company in Pakistan gathering intelligence on better ways to construct nuclear weapons.  That's a service to mankind right there, for which he gets lots of tokens of service and doesn't even pay taxes.  If I invest my money in a drug trafficking operation, and I get it back double what I invested because I was able to facilitate bringing many tonnes of cocaine into the US, was I part of a great service to mankind?  It was an investment though!  Investments are pure!  So is all work that gives me money, right?
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jimbob on Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 13:03:36
Yeah.  That's what's typical.  And because that happens, all investing is eeeevvvviiiiiilllll.  Straw man.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: normfromga on Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 13:50:34
If there is anything worse than Godless Communism, it might be Godless capitalism.

One example might be when, after the Soviet Union fell, there were several unemployed scientists and engineers who had developed their most advanced weapon systems, and saw nothing wrong with offering their services to the highest bidder, whether or not their new employer had criminal or terrorist uses of the technology in mind.

Another example might be seen when, during the Tienanmen Square protests of 1989, workers and students joined in the protests in Shanghai, which, at the time, had been deemed a free enterprize zone in order to attract foreign investment.  As part of the protest, several protesters stood in front of a freight train being prepared to advance, much like more widely seen instance of an individual in Beijing stopping a column of tanks.

However, in this case, the mayor of Shanghai did not see any merit in their cause, and ordered to train to procede, which caused several casualties.

Later, the mayor expressed surprised when several foreign investors were shocked at this action, and were indicating reservations about doing business with such a regime.  His justification was quite simple:  this had nothing to do with politics.  One must simply not tolerate individuals holding up production or transport of goods under a free enterprise system, for whatever reason.

His rationale must have made since; we still by a lot of stuff from China, and the mayor became the Primier of China.

However, it is due to this type moral vacuum that generations of State-sponsored atheism as produced, that is causing some leaders, such as in Russia, to open their doors, even that of  their schools, to the moral concepts found in the Bible.

I can hardly wait to see the results when the younger, State-educated, "values-neutral," capitalists take over in this country. ::frown::
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Bon Voyage on Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 14:00:58
Jack works for the mob, but he gets these "tokens of service" from the don, so he must be servicing his fellow man right?  How about the expatriate who works for a company in Pakistan gathering intelligence on better ways to construct nuclear weapons.  That's a service to mankind right there, for which he gets lots of tokens of service and doesn't even pay taxes.  If I invest my money in a drug trafficking operation, and I get it back double what I invested because I was able to facilitate bringing many tonnes of cocaine into the US, was I part of a great service to mankind?  It was an investment though!  Investments are pure!  So is all work that gives me money, right?

The problem isn't with investment.  IT IS WITH PEOPLE!  Investments don't sin, people do.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 14:07:23
Yeah.  That's what's typical.  And because that happens, all investing is eeeevvvviiiiiilllll.  Straw man.
Wow, more words being put in my mouth.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 14:10:27
Jack works for the mob, but he gets these "tokens of service" from the don, so he must be servicing his fellow man right?  How about the expatriate who works for a company in Pakistan gathering intelligence on better ways to construct nuclear weapons.  That's a service to mankind right there, for which he gets lots of tokens of service and doesn't even pay taxes.  If I invest my money in a drug trafficking operation, and I get it back double what I invested because I was able to facilitate bringing many tonnes of cocaine into the US, was I part of a great service to mankind?  It was an investment though!  Investments are pure!  So is all work that gives me money, right?

The problem isn't with investment.  IT IS WITH PEOPLE!  Investments don't sin, people do.

I've never stated otherwise.  I'm just saying that money is not necessarily a token of service to mankind.  Nor is investing or labor or purchasing.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 16:41:58
Jack works for the mob, but he gets these "tokens of service" from the don, so he must be servicing his fellow man right?  How about the expatriate who works for a company in Pakistan gathering intelligence on better ways to construct nuclear weapons.  That's a service to mankind right there, for which he gets lots of tokens of service and doesn't even pay taxes.  If I invest my money in a drug trafficking operation, and I get it back double what I invested because I was able to facilitate bringing many tonnes of cocaine into the US, was I part of a great service to mankind?  It was an investment though!  Investments are pure!  So is all work that gives me money, right?

The problem isn't with investment.  IT IS WITH PEOPLE!  Investments don't sin, people do.

I've never stated otherwise.  I'm just saying that money is not necessarily a token of service to mankind.  Nor is investing or labor or purchasing.

Nor is anyone saying it IS necessarily a token of service to mankind. Agreement was enjoyed by all!!
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jimbob on Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 20:06:32
If there is anything worse than Godless Communism, it might be Godless capitalism.

One example might be when, after the Soviet Union fell, there were several unemployed scientists and engineers who had developed their most advanced weapon systems, and saw nothing wrong with offering their services to the highest bidder, whether or not their new employer had criminal or terrorist uses of the technology in mind.

Another example might be seen when, during the Tienanmen Square protests of 1989, workers and students joined in the protests in Shanghai, which, at the time, had been deemed a free enterprize zone in order to attract foreign investment.  As part of the protest, several protesters stood in front of a freight train being prepared to advance, much like more widely seen instance of an individual in Beijing stopping a column of tanks.

However, in this case, the mayor of Shanghai did not see any merit in their cause, and ordered to train to procede, which caused several casualties.

Later, the mayor expressed surprised when several foreign investors were shocked at this action, and were indicating reservations about doing business with such a regime.  His justification was quite simple:  this had nothing to do with politics.  One must simply not tolerate individuals holding up production or transport of goods under a free enterprise system, for whatever reason.

His rationale must have made since; we still by a lot of stuff from China, and the mayor became the Primier of China.

However, it is due to this type moral vacuum that generations of State-sponsored atheism as produced, that is causing some leaders, such as in Russia, to open their doors, even that of  their schools, to the moral concepts found in the Bible.

I can hardly wait to see the results when the younger, State-educated, "values-neutral," capitalists take over in this country. ::frown::
And that's the true crux of the matter.  Godless.  And yes, it is scary. 
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jimbob on Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 20:08:21
Yeah.  That's what's typical.  And because that happens, all investing is eeeevvvviiiiiilllll.  Straw man.
Wow, more words being put in my mouth.
Nope.  And it's still a straw man argument.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Wed Nov 28, 2007 - 20:19:58
Yeah.  That's what's typical.  And because that happens, all investing is eeeevvvviiiiiilllll.  Straw man.
Wow, more words being put in my mouth.
Nope.  And it's still a straw man argument.

I suppose I'm unfamiliar with the term...  why the short phrases and lack of explanation when saying you're not putting words in my mouth?
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Thu Nov 29, 2007 - 07:54:29
Jack works for the mob, but he gets these "tokens of service" from the don, so he must be servicing his fellow man right?  How about the expatriate who works for a company in Pakistan gathering intelligence on better ways to construct nuclear weapons.  That's a service to mankind right there, for which he gets lots of tokens of service and doesn't even pay taxes.  If I invest my money in a drug trafficking operation, and I get it back double what I invested because I was able to facilitate bringing many tonnes of cocaine into the US, was I part of a great service to mankind?  It was an investment though!  Investments are pure!  So is all work that gives me money, right?

No, work that violates the human right of another, that right being to be free of force and fraud, is not right.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Thu Nov 29, 2007 - 07:59:08
Yeah.  That's what's typical.  And because that happens, all investing is eeeevvvviiiiiilllll.  Straw man.

Wow, more words being put in my mouth.
Nope.  And it's still a straw man argument.


I suppose I'm unfamiliar with the term...  why the short phrases and lack of explanation when saying you're not putting words in my mouth?


The Straw Man Argument (http://www-personal.umich.edu/~lilyth/strawman.html)
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jimbob on Thu Nov 29, 2007 - 08:02:41
And it's a straw man because it was an easy set up.  Present the mob and cartel argument because no one's going to argue that it should be defended, thus an easy knock down and win.  Only problem is, the illegal shadow economies were not the discussion, and are outside of our free enterprise system, and not at all relevant to the discussion of investing, since they are not represented on the NYSE, Nasdaq, Nikkei, or in mutual funds, etc.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Thu Nov 29, 2007 - 11:18:52
And it's a straw man because it was an easy set up.  Present the mob and cartel argument because no one's going to argue that it should be defended, thus an easy knock down and win.  Only problem is, the illegal shadow economies were not the discussion, and are outside of our free enterprise system, and not at all relevant to the discussion of investing, since they are not represented on the NYSE, Nasdaq, Nikkei, or in mutual funds, etc.
Had you explained this, I might have been able to continue.  But short phrases intended to not let me continue to defend my position aren't any better than your "straw man".  I don't see the investments as being different, but as you do, I'll go to the Wall Street version of investment.  Are there not corrupt companies there?  Have there not been scandals and thefts and illegitimate practices in those companies?  If I invest in the company that produces equipment for performing abortions, am I doing a service to mankind?
It's not a matter of "all investments are good" or "all investing is eeeevvvviiiiiilllll."  I'm trying to point out that NOT all investing is good.  It's not everything or nothing.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Thu Nov 29, 2007 - 11:25:06
And it's a straw man because it was an easy set up.  Present the mob and cartel argument because no one's going to argue that it should be defended, thus an easy knock down and win.  Only problem is, the illegal shadow economies were not the discussion, and are outside of our free enterprise system, and not at all relevant to the discussion of investing, since they are not represented on the NYSE, Nasdaq, Nikkei, or in mutual funds, etc.
Had you explained this, I might have been able to continue.  But short phrases intended to not let me continue to defend my position aren't any better than your "straw man".  I don't see the investments as being different, but as you do, I'll go to the Wall Street version of investment.  Are there not corrupt companies there?  Have there not been scandals and thefts and illegitimate practices in those companies?  If I invest in the company that produces equipment for performing abortions, am I doing a service to mankind?
It's not a matter of "all investments are good" or "all investing is eeeevvvviiiiiilllll."  I'm trying to point out that NOT all investing is good.  It's not everything or nothing.

Did anyone say it was?
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Brian Kelley on Thu Nov 29, 2007 - 11:33:36
And it's a straw man because it was an easy set up.  Present the mob and cartel argument because no one's going to argue that it should be defended, thus an easy knock down and win.  Only problem is, the illegal shadow economies were not the discussion, and are outside of our free enterprise system, and not at all relevant to the discussion of investing, since they are not represented on the NYSE, Nasdaq, Nikkei, or in mutual funds, etc.
Had you explained this, I might have been able to continue.  But short phrases intended to not let me continue to defend my position aren't any better than your "straw man".  I don't see the investments as being different, but as you do, I'll go to the Wall Street version of investment.  Are there not corrupt companies there?  Have there not been scandals and thefts and illegitimate practices in those companies?  If I invest in the company that produces equipment for performing abortions, am I doing a service to mankind?
It's not a matter of "all investments are good" or "all investing is eeeevvvviiiiiilllll."  I'm trying to point out that NOT all investing is good.  It's not everything or nothing.

Did anyone say it was?

Mere Nick said that investment was inherently a service to mankind.  I was trying to say that was not always the case.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Thu Nov 29, 2007 - 11:46:53
I didn't see the word always in his assertion. Of course investment in something like drug paraphenalia is not a service to mankind. let's loosen up guys, no need for 4 or 5 pages arguing over stuff like that.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jimbob on Thu Nov 29, 2007 - 11:57:41
But short phrases intended to not let me continue to defend my position aren't any better than your "straw man". 
That was not the intention.  And I'll be as brief as I choose to be, thank you. 
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Dave... on Mon Dec 03, 2007 - 13:58:59
The people defending communism on this thread do not understand what they are defending. I know this for a fact. The Christianity that is "flourishing" in the communist countries that is being allowed by the same government is socialism, not Christianity. We see the same thing happening here in the U.S. Yes, they use the name Jesus and can even quote some scripture, but the foundation of their beliefs are not Bible based, but grounded in secular humanist philosophy. Talk with them for five minutes and this becomes quite obvious.

Real Christianity, if it is in fact flourishing in any communist country, in any way shape or form, would be in spite of the persecution by these same governments, not because of it.

Socialism/communism has never worked, and never will. These are not just economic principles but complete world views. They never build, they only infect and destroy.

I'll debate any honest person in this. Be warned, if you have a pie in the sky idea of communism that you've been programmed to believe in the indoctrination camps called the public school system, I will shatter those false ideas.

Communist Goals (1963) Congressional Record--Appendix, pp. A34-A35
http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm

Dave
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: admin on Mon Dec 03, 2007 - 23:11:38
The people defending communism on this thread do not understand what they are defending. I know this for a fact. The Christianity that is "flourishing" in the communist countries that is being allowed by the same government is socialism, not Christianity. We see the same thing happening here in the U.S. Yes, they use the name Jesus and can even quote some scripture, but the foundation of their beliefs are not Bible based, but grounded in secular humanist philosophy. Talk with them for five minutes and this becomes quite obvious.

Real Christianity, if it is in fact flourishing in any communist country, in any way shape or form, would be in spite of the persecution by these same governments, not because of it.

Socialism/communism has never worked, and never will. These are not just economic principles but complete world views. They never build, they only infect and destroy.

I'll debate any honest person in this. Be warned, if you have a pie in the sky idea of communism that you've been programmed to believe in the indoctrination camps called the public school system, I will shatter those false ideas.

Communist Goals (1963) Congressional Record--Appendix, pp. A34-A35
[url]http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm[/url]

Dave


Exactly. Making the conclusion that just because Christianity has done well, underground in some communist countries doesn't mean that a communistic government stimulates or contributes to the growth of Christianity. Christianity can grow under most any circumstance and IN SPITE of many circumstances, but that doesn't mean that there's any reason to invite persecution and extreme government control.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jimbob on Tue Dec 04, 2007 - 07:20:09
If Communism bread rampant underground Christianity, then why did the numbers of Christians in the Soviet Union fall like a rock during its 70 years of Communism?  And yes, I'm well aware there were underground churches in existence, but I've been there lived that.  They were few and far between.  Praise God they held on, but lets not write a revisionist history that says that an abusive, oppressive government was a "good for them."  That's naiveté to its fullest.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Tue Dec 04, 2007 - 07:56:25
If Communism bread rampant underground Christianity, then why did the numbers of Christians in the Soviet Union fall like a rock during its 70 years of Communism?  And yes, I'm well aware there were underground churches in existence, but I've been there lived that.  They were few and far between.  Praise God they held on, but lets not write a revisionist history that says that an abusive, oppressive government was a "good for them."  That's naiveté to its fullest.

Same goes for what some say about how Christianity has weathered the onslaught of Islamic oppression.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Dave... on Tue Dec 04, 2007 - 23:20:56
Here's one example that explains why "christianity" is allowed in Communist countries, while the real Christianity is being persecuted.

"Evangelical pastor Rick Warren has been invited to preach this summer to some 15,000 Christians in North Korea, a communist country infamous not only for its nuclear threats but also for its religious persecution.
http://www.newswithviews.com/PaulProctor/proctor96.htm

---------------------------------------
1. North Korea

For the fifth year in a row, North Korea heads the World Watch List as the worst violator of religious rights for Christians. Media attention was focused on the country in 2006 but nothing has changed for the North Korean people. The North Korean regime launched missiles and tested nuclear weapons in 2006, which meant a further increase of pressure in the country. We were able to trace more information, which indicated that more Christians were arrested in 2006 than in 2005. There are still many people in labor camps, and everyday life in North Korea is inhuman. Between 50,000 and 70,000 Christians are currently suffering in prison camps. Many of them are tortured. People are still putting their lives at stake by trying to flee to China. After crossing the border, several people have converted after coming into contact with Christians. The newborn Christians are very brave and return to North Korea to tell others about Jesus. Considering Christianity to be a tremendous threat to stability in the country, the North Korean government hunts Christians all over the country, especially those who try to return from China. Many of them were arrested, tortured and even killed. But amidst all the harshness in the country, the local Christians are dedicated to serving the local Body of Christ and are firmly standing strong during this period of relentless persecution.
http://sb.od.org/index.php?supp_page=wwl_top_ten&supp_lang=en

Kim Jong Il, who persecutes Christians daily feels absolutely no threat from Warren's watered down, socialized, methodical socialism that he calls Christianity. In fact, he wants it.

Why would Kim Jong Il feel it necessary to invite Warren?

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a "religious crutch." http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm

If the spreading of Christianity is inevitable in North Korea in this day and age, the greatest fear of communism, then the only option for Kim Jong Il is to poison it and steer it towards communist ideals, as is happening in U.S. with the new age movement.

In this Way, Warren's socialised gospel serves a great purpose for Kim Jong Il

The same thing is happening in China. Socialised, Government christianity has a gret purpose. Real Christianity is still being persecuted.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"In vain do some think that socialism is merely a theory of economics. No, socialism replaces everything with itself; it is founding its own religion. In the resolutions of the various socialist assemblies and the discourses of socialist leaders one finds clearly and definitely expressed the demand for a revolution in all human thought. "Socialism is not and cannot be a mere economic science, a question concerning the stomach only... In the final analysis, socialists are striving to bring about revolution throughout the entire juridical, moral, philosophical, and religious superstructure" (Vandervelde). "Is socialism merely an economic theory?," we read in the socialistic catechism of Bax and Kvelch; "In no way! Socialism envelops all the relations of human life." According to Bax, in religion socialism is expressed as atheistic humanism."

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism." --Nikita Khrushchev

"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Dunamite on Tue Dec 11, 2007 - 13:24:47
George Gilder was right when he said "Greed is an appetite for unneeded and unearned wealth and power.  The truly greedy seek comfort and security first.  They seek goods and clout they have not earned.  Because the best and safest way to gain unearned pay is to get the state to take it from others, greed leads, as by an invisible hand, toward ever more government action - to socialism, not capitalism."

What makes free market capitalism so wonderful?  It is an aristocracy of merit.  To prosper, you must serve.





I don't see ths as being true at all.  To prosper, you must make lucky investment choices.  Investment has no service in it whatsoever.  In fact, one of the main communist principles is a Biblical one:  If you don't work, you don't eat.  That sounds like exactly what you're looking for...
How is this different from gambling if "luck" is involved? In both investing and gambling there are no guarantees. In both cases knowledge improves your chances for success. Certainly some investment markets offer no better odds than putting you money on a spin of the roulette wheel.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Dunamite on Tue Dec 11, 2007 - 14:30:43
I think your interpreting the facts through your foregone conclusions.
We all filter things though our conscious mind. We form our worldview from our observations. This enables us to interpret the world and make sense of it.

We should be always check ourselves and periodically modify our worldview because as we age we change and of course the world is also constantly changing. I would be surprised if anyone had a static worldview.

I experienced a paradigm shift when I accepted Christ (25 years ago). I expected that this would color my perceptions and make me more conservative, but it didn't. If nothing it entrenched my left wing views. I could see the unfairness in the world and now I saw that Jesus had a heart for the weak, poor and down-trodden, like I did.

Many American Christians have bought into conservativism for reasons that escape me. They see Christ as a conservative while I see him as a radical. If he was conservative then the establishment surely would not have rejected him. When I read scripture I see Christ attacking the establishment of his day, the Sadducees, the Pharisees and the Sanhedrin. He attacked their self righteous hypocrisy, their uncaring attitude and self centered lifestyle.

I see conservatives today in that same place. They want to keep their traditions, their privilege and their way of life. They insulate themselves from the common people and have lost touch with reality. They see others in terms of their own reality. They view the common people as losers, deserving of what they have got out of life. They think that everyone can be like they are if only they worked harder. This of course is a great deseption which they try to keep alive.

God made enough to go around. He did not make people poor. He did not make others to want more that their neighbor. That comes from the human heart and temptations of Satan. We unequally distribute God's bounty. We set up systems of government and economics. We entrench in law the unfairness that comes from our desire to promote our interests over someone else's.  In God's world we will all be winners.

As a leftist, I think that we can right some of the wrongs. I think that the laws we have were made by the landed and the rich. They came out of the medieval era. They favor their position. Anything that the common man has got they have had to fight for and in many cases die for. I don't think that there is any rule that God made which gives the rich the right to exploit the poor.

I think that common people are the majority, but that the legal, economic and political systems were set in place long ago and that they guarantee the success of the privileged class. They have succeeded to create a fiction that there is no class system in America and that anyone by virtue of hard work can succeed. But to succeed is to lose the common touch and to become like them.

Mussolini said that "fascism should be correctly called corporatism". Living in a society which is based on corporate success is by his definition fascist. Corporations do not have a vote in a democracy, but by owning the media and by controlling the economy they get the only say that matters. They dictate who runs, who succeeds and ultimately who you will choose. They give media access and slant it in the same way that they do in a fascist state. They crown the next "Prince" in the way that would make Machiavelli.

Corporations control the the judicial system as well as the economic and political. Judges at the highest level are appointees of the political. Judges are chosen for their friendliness to the agenda of the administration which is friendly to the agenda of the corporate masters. Lower down judges are elected in the U.S., but the political process is marred because it gives preference to those who can raise the most money and are therefore friendliest to those with money, the wealthy, including those with the most money corporations.

Democracy is a delusion and a sham. It exists only to give legitimacy to the wealthy class. When we served our medieval masters we had no such delusions. We had few rights, but at least we know where we stood.

To the corporate masters it does not matter who is elected in the end. They know that whoever is elected will come hat in hand for money. They let the hopeful know where they stand and there is an unwritten contract that they will work within the parameters they set out. The candidate knows that failure to deliver is not an option for the corporate masters. It is therefore just a question of who is able to best sell themselves to the public.

I personally believe that there are even more insidious forces at work in all western democracies. I think there is a whole network of influential people functioning in all areas of expertise dedicated to a common purpose. I think that they are secretive and work behind the scenes for a common purpose. These people know who each other is and that is enough for them. We are not to know who they are, but you can count on one thing that if they are in a position of power then they are either directly involved or are being manipulated. As Christians we are told that Satan is the prince of this world. Centralization of wealth and power plays into his hands and we would be remiss if we discounted either his power or desire to manipulate the world.

Satan is subtle. He lures us and beguiles us. He uses illusion and deception as tools. It would be a mistake to think that democracy, communism  or capitalism is good in and of itself.

I challenge myself and it often takes me into places other people do not want to go. I can be accused of being alarmist or extreme, but I don't think that I can be accused of being ill-informed or asleep at the wheel. I do not buy into the party line and I probably won't because I think it is based on lies and deception. Until I know better I will keep my guard up.

Blessings,
Dunamite

Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Dunamite on Tue Dec 11, 2007 - 14:49:51
The people defending communism on this thread do not understand what they are defending. I know this for a fact. The Christianity that is "flourishing" in the communist countries that is being allowed by the same government is socialism, not Christianity. We see the same thing happening here in the U.S. Yes, they use the name Jesus and can even quote some scripture, but the foundation of their beliefs are not Bible based, but grounded in secular humanist philosophy. Talk with them for five minutes and this becomes quite obvious.

Real Christianity, if it is in fact flourishing in any communist country, in any way shape or form, would be in spite of the persecution by these same governments, not because of it.

Socialism/communism has never worked, and never will. These are not just economic principles but complete world views. They never build, they only infect and destroy.

I'll debate any honest person in this. Be warned, if you have a pie in the sky idea of communism that you've been programmed to believe in the indoctrination camps called the public school system, I will shatter those false ideas.

Communist Goals (1963) Congressional Record--Appendix, pp. A34-A35
[url]http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm[/url]

Dave


Be careful what you quote as "fact". Go back to communist ideology if you must, but do not accept heresay evidence. I have read all of Das Capital and the Communist Manifesto, in fact all the works of Marx and Engels.

I reject communism, not because it is inherently bad. I reject it because it cannot be achieved in the way that Marx envisioned. The state cannot wither away. States involve the centralization of power and authority and it is not in the human heart to relinquish control. Even in the U.S.A. I see countless church leaders who want to seize control and to use it for their own purposes. If the church can be thus deluded then we are indeed lost.

I reject communism because it is unworkable, not on religious grounds. I similarly reject capitalism because it is unworkable.

I am only a leftist because I think that the poor, the sick and the powerless deserve a break. I think that too many people are getting more than they need and more than they would get if things were equally divided. I am a privileged middle aged white Anglo-Saxon male. I have got far more than I deserve because I was smart and knew how the system worked. I knew how to succeed in school and how to get ahead. Kids from privileged background pick this up by osmosis. It cannot be taught. If you don't see it in your surroundings you have to seek it out. Otherwise you can be as smart and talented as you want and it will be wasted. Conversely you can be dumb as a stump and still do well as long as others are looking out for you. In this way the rich look after their own. They made the system and they know how to use it to their advantage. Who knows you could even become president?  ::whistle::

On a good day I think that the system is capable of being reformed, but then I give my head a shake and tell myself to wise up. The only good government will come when Jesus returns.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: admin on Fri Dec 14, 2007 - 09:04:59
Dunamite,

I was reading the other day about wealthy people and how their minds work. The story interviewed millionaires and there were several things that stuck out including that they were often times working several jobs instead of just one, that they were self motivated instead of waiting to be told what to do, and, oddly enough, the majority of the "super wealthy" (I don't remember the number for this but Bill Gates and Warren Buffet were both on the list) came from very poor families. The rich did not "look after them." According to the story, they knew what it was like to do without and worked harder than the average person to make sure they had plenty.

Secondly, you talk about the rich looking after their own as if it's a bad thing. If I work all my life to earn money (and regardless of what anyone says, the vast majority of the time a large income takes a large amount of work)... but if I work all my life to earn money, I have every right to do what I want with it because I traded part of my life, time and effort for it. If I want to give it to my children, grandchildren or friend==that's my right. You can call it "looking after your own," but what parent would not feed their child or want to have in inheritance for them? The Bible talked about giving an inheritance as a good thing.

In America, if you apply yourself and work hard, you can go far. I was raised in a poor environment and now I'm not. How? Well, I didn't have any rich people looking out for me, so I worked while other people slept or played video games. Capitalism simply places the decision of how much money you make on YOU instead of letting some dictator or king decide how much people have. It's the best system on earth.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Fri Dec 14, 2007 - 09:16:17
manna to you admin
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: admin on Sat Dec 15, 2007 - 11:26:24
Concerning wealth and people working hard to become rich, I don't believe there is anything at all wrong in wanting to work hard and be wealthy. When Solomon asked for wisdom, God chose to give him even more and one of those things was wealth. The Bible actually called it a blessing (that God blessed him with great wealth).

Here's a quote from Dave Ramsey about that:

"It is absolutely okay for a Christian to want to be a millionaire, because as Christians we know that no matter how much we have, we own nothing. We are simply managers of the resources God has give us. If we can manage God's money, whether $100 or $1 million, we are okay."

Remember, it's the "love" of money that is the root of evil. Working hard to earn a lot and enjoying the fruits of your labor is fine if you keep money in its proper perspective and don't love it. Love is for people. And just because some people do love money, that doesn't ruin it for the rest of us.

In capitalism, there is no "piece of the pie." The pie is the same size for everyone and we all can cut a slice out of it if we work very hard and apply ourselves. You see, a very rich person is not going to bury his money in a hole in the ground. He's going to invest it so that start-up companies can use it to employee themselves and others, start his own businesses which hire employees so that they can have some of it and save it in banks where they can loan it out for people to buy homes. He'll also use that money to buy food, have fun, by insurance, build a house, a car--all things that put money in the hands of other people.

Capitalism gives us all a chance to be as wealthy as we wish and it spreads money around to those who choose to offer something to their fellow man (person) that merits another person giving what they have worked hard to earn in exchange.

It sure beats a king or dictator deciding what he/she thinks you can/should live on or deserve!
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Sat Dec 15, 2007 - 11:49:56
In capitalism, there is no "piece of the pie."

Through investment and hard work, EVERYONE can have a bigger piece of pie by making a bigger pie.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Dunamite on Fri Dec 21, 2007 - 09:16:25
Dunamite,

I was reading the other day about wealthy people and how their minds work. The story interviewed millionaires and there were several things that stuck out including that they were often times working several jobs instead of just one, that they were self motivated instead of waiting to be told what to do, and, oddly enough, the majority of the "super wealthy" (I don't remember the number for this but Bill Gates and Warren Buffet were both on the list) came from very poor families. The rich did not "look after them." According to the story, they knew what it was like to do without and worked harder than the average person to make sure they had plenty.

Secondly, you talk about the rich looking after their own as if it's a bad thing. If I work all my life to earn money (and regardless of what anyone says, the vast majority of the time a large income takes a large amount of work)... but if I work all my life to earn money, I have every right to do what I want with it because I traded part of my life, time and effort for it. If I want to give it to my children, grandchildren or friend==that's my right. You can call it "looking after your own," but what parent would not feed their child or want to have in inheritance for them? The Bible talked about giving an inheritance as a good thing.

In America, if you apply yourself and work hard, you can go far. I was raised in a poor environment and now I'm not. How? Well, I didn't have any rich people looking out for me, so I worked while other people slept or played video games. Capitalism simply places the decision of how much money you make on YOU instead of letting some dictator or king decide how much people have. It's the best system on earth.
You miss my point. There will be no capitalism in Heaven. Capitalism is based on inequality. Inequality comes about when some people take more than their share. Furthermore they expand this by taking control of the political, economic and judicial process to give them the right to exploit others.

Edited for rules violation.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: admin on Wed Dec 26, 2007 - 16:00:21
You don't know there won't be capitalism in Heaven. Heaven will be a city on the new earth that will be a restoration of Eden and you don't know there won't be capitalism there.

And you are completely wrong. Capitalism does not come about because someone "takes more than their fair share." Who says we are all entitled to an equal share? Or a share at all? If I sit on my butt all day, I'm not entitled to doodily.

If you and I were the last two men on earth and I picked more apples for myself because I was faster at picking apples or because you were sleeping in your cave, then I deserved more apples. The same is true today. If what you do provides more value to society, you are rewarded differently. If I want to pay $10 for someone's service, but $15 for yours because I believe you will do a better job, not only is it my right to do that, but it's your right to take more because people see your product/service as more valuable.

And it is most certainly my right to try to make a bigger, better and faster widget than the other guys to try to earn more money. If you want the government to pay everyone equal no matter what they do or how hard they work, please, go to communist China. You speak highly of it, so please go there if our system is so bad.

There very well could be curency in Heaven by the way. We read about rewards and that some will receive greater rewards and some will receive lesser rewards (just like in Hell the Bible says some will receive harsher punishments). I believe Heaven will be a city on the New Earth. And there, we might just be rewarded based on our contributions and responsibilities. We might even have currency. The Bible says the love of money is the root of evil, not having it or providing a better service to earn more than the guy who's service is not as good.

You know...I hear communist China is nice this time of year. Perhaps you should visit. And then...maybe move there since you don't like the free market.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Dunamite on Sun Dec 30, 2007 - 10:24:04
Dunamite,

I was reading the other day about wealthy people and how their minds work. The story interviewed millionaires and there were several things that stuck out including that they were often times working several jobs instead of just one, that they were self motivated instead of waiting to be told what to do, and, oddly enough, the majority of the "super wealthy" (I don't remember the number for this but Bill Gates and Warren Buffet were both on the list) came from very poor families. The rich did not "look after them." According to the story, they knew what it was like to do without and worked harder than the average person to make sure they had plenty.

Secondly, you talk about the rich looking after their own as if it's a bad thing. If I work all my life to earn money (and regardless of what anyone says, the vast majority of the time a large income takes a large amount of work)... but if I work all my life to earn money, I have every right to do what I want with it because I traded part of my life, time and effort for it. If I want to give it to my children, grandchildren or friend==that's my right. You can call it "looking after your own," but what parent would not feed their child or want to have in inheritance for them? The Bible talked about giving an inheritance as a good thing.

In America, if you apply yourself and work hard, you can go far. I was raised in a poor environment and now I'm not. How? Well, I didn't have any rich people looking out for me, so I worked while other people slept or played video games. Capitalism simply places the decision of how much money you make on YOU instead of letting some dictator or king decide how much people have. It's the best system on earth.
James 5:  1Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. 2Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter. 6You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you.

You make a good point about people coming from humble beginnings and becoming successful. I will leave your examples of Gates and Buffett unchallenged for now. I know how Gates made his billions, but know little of Warren Buffet's humble origins.

You are making some huge leaps of faith. First you assume that it is a level playing field and that the rules are equal and unbiased. Second you assume that you can become rich without oppressing others and engaging in unethical practices.

I will take the milieu in which most of your readers operate, the U.S. as an example. How many people have tried to live on the current minimum wage? Have you tried to feed and clothe a family and put a roof over your head on this wage? Someone starting out on a minimum wage cannot get ahead. They have no benefits and must work long hours, often having more than one job to get ahead.

Take two children, both equally intelligent. One is born into a family of privilege and another is born into poverty. If the system is equal and fair then they should have the same chance of making it by virtue of their own intelligence and skills.

Unfortunately, the one born into a life of privilege has a long head start. He has role models, he has books in his home, he has lessons for everything, he has good nourishment, he has a quiet room of his own to study in, he has someone to urge him to achieve, he has connections to get his first good job, he has universities knocking at his door because his parents are benefactors of the university, he has good healthcare if he gets sick and can afford to miss work while he convalesces.

I am not saying that he does not deserve these things. I am saying that he has a head start. The system guarantees his success. Even if he is useless, he will get a job using his family connections. If he gets in trouble with the law, he will get a good lawyer who will get him off without a record. If he is drafted he will not be sent to serve in combat, but will get a cushy job somewhere out of the way. If he wants to get into business, his daddy's friends will set him up and if he is a failure they will bail him out. If he enters politics, he will have the right people to endorse him. His way is paved and pre-determined.

So the system is not as fair as it could be. Everyone could be guaranteed a fair working wage. Everyone could have access to good housing. Everyone could have health care and drug plans. Everyone could have access to post-secondary education. I am not talking about communism. I am talking about within our existing structure. These things exist in Europe and to a lesser degree in Canada and they are not communist countries.

The system benefits when the most able students are given a chance to succeed. The system benefits when people have a decent wage. Families are healthier, happier and better able to deal with difficulties. Countries that spend more on public housing have no slums and ghettos. Countries that have more of a social safety net spend less on crime prevention. They have lower incarceration levels and recidivism is lower. Violent crime is lower in countries which have strong guns laws and have programs to combat drug addiction.

When you cut programs for the poor, you pay a higher price in the end. It costs more to house a criminal, than it does to house a family in public housing. This is to say nothing of how much safer people feel in their own cities. There is no price that can be put on that.

Capitalism is exploitive by its very nature. It is based on creating classes of haves and have nots. The money that the rich get has to come from others. Unfairness is at its core. No one sets out to be poor. They become that way. If you don't become poor then someone else will. It is inevitable.

Capitalism rewards greed. In order to acquire capital one must obtain wealth. That is the goal. You cannot become a good capitalist unless you always want more. It is a mistake to believe that capitalists create wealth. They merely redistribute what already exists. In reality all workers own their own labor and the results of their labor. The capitalist buys that labor by artificially creating a market for it. I say artificially because he sets the terms. He and his fellow capitalists create unemployment so that labor costs are kept as low as possible. They create opportunity in some places, but take it away in others. It is a myth that it is a free market where services are traded freely. These decisions are usually made at a very high level, national or international, by bankers and capitalist elite. They keep the destiny of the nation in their hands and hold politicians in their pockets.

One could argue that capitalists can be good citizens and give back to the community, but even if this could be demonstrated it still does not change the nature of capitalism or the capitalist. He got ahead by taking away from others.

America is more myth than reality. You say that if you work hard you can get ahead, but some people need to work hard and others do not. It takes an industrious working class to keep the capitalists in business. Without them the capitalists would fail. They keep the illusion alive so that the workers will not lose hope. We all live under the fallacy that we can get ahead on our own. However, what really happens is that you get a good idea and the capitalists sit back waiting for their opportunity to take it from you. They buy ideas, just as they buy people. If you work hard you may be noticed and promoted to a higher level. You are coopted. This is the way the system works. People are just a commodity to the people at the top.

My views may seem unduly skeptical, but they conform to my religious views. If Satan is active in this world, and I believe that he is, then he will go where the power and money is. If America is at the top of the world, then you can be assured that Satan is active in America. If corporations are where the power resides, then you can be assured that Satan is on the board of every company.

1 John 2: 15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.

Blessings,
Dunamite

P.S. I write these things not to advocate any one political system. I see all political systems as being corrupt. I see economics systems such as capitalism as being particularly corrupt. There is evil, but Satan does not want to see it. He disguises things in such a way that we will buy into it. We can get sucked into thinking that the status quo is okay. We are being anesthetized by Satan when we cease to see his evil. Patriotism for a country is wrong if it clouds our judgment. Obedience is wrong if it is blind.

I could be accused of supporting communism, but that would be wrong. If we lived in a communist country then I would oppose it. To me it isn't a question of one being wrong and the other right. This is too simplistic. I defend communism in so far as its ideals are positive. The same ideals of giving as much as you can and taking only what you needed existed in the early church. You really can't argue against the ideals unless you are against what the church stood for. In practice it has been a disaster.

We live in a capitalist world. To live in a capitalist country with immense social and economic problems and not blame the underlying economics for any of it is wrong. Most apologists for capitalism are self serving. They have gained and so are able to justify in their own minds their own position viz a vis others. I am also of the elite, but reject elitism in general and the capitalist elite in particular. Otherwise I could not live out my Christianity with a clear conscience. I am not sure how others justify it, but I do not choose to.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Dunamite on Sun Dec 30, 2007 - 12:16:06
In capitalism, there is no "piece of the pie."

Through investment and hard work, EVERYONE can have a bigger piece of pie by making a bigger pie.
Are you serious? We live on a planet with finite resources. Take a look around. There is unequal distribution everywhere. America takes more of the global pie. 5% of the population consumes a quarter of the world's resources. Over 50% of the world's population are poised to enter the marketplace in a big way. Do you propose giving up some of your over-consumption so that they can enjoy what you already do?

Making a bigger pie is a fallacy. If you believe this then you are fooling yourself and it will come back to bite you when others are taking from your share. China was our job ghetto now. It has few labor protection and health protection standards. We used to practice capitalism this way, but we have merely shifted the problem elsewhere. When China becomes too expensive the jobs will go elsewhere and someone else will suffer so that the Chinese can live high on the hog. And so it goes.

We are building a house of cards that is like an immense pyramid scheme. There are winners an losers, but in the end someone has to lose. Pyramid schemes are illegal with good reason. Some day it will come crashing to the ground and your world will go with it. It is in the cards or more correctly, in the books of Daniel and Revelations. We are destroying the world. I get it. Some don't. They are too busy on their squirrel wheels trying to get ahead to see it.

None of us is free of guilt. The world is going down the tubes and none of us will escape intact, unless Jesus comes to end the insanity. We can take confidence in only that. All of the rest is wasted effort.

I have used more metaphors than necessary. Suffice it to say, the world is a mess and we are part of the problem. A bigger part than we sometimes care to admit.

Blessings,
Dunamite
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: patriciaredstone on Sun Dec 30, 2007 - 19:40:57
"They call it the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it" -George Carlin. I love that! But not because the American Dream is impossible to achieve. I know several people who have come up from poverty and have achieved wealth. I love that quote because abundance isn't as great as some of the poor think it is. Wealth comes with problems ... problems that cost you time ... lots of time. Time is not money ... it's life. And life is all you really have. I don't mean to say that poverty isn't miserable. It is. But I've seen that wealth is just a higher form of poverty.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: william7 on Sat Jan 05, 2008 - 16:20:33
Christian Communism is a worthy topic of study in my opinion. Didn't Jesus teach it and His disciples along with the early Christian Church in Acts practice it? Matthew19:20-27; Acts 2:44-45; 4:32-35.

I believe the only reason communism hasn't succeeded is because it hasn't been done correctly. Atheists, tyrants, and pagans seem to screw it up every time.

There's an interesting discussion going on at the Immortality Institute (ImmInst.org) in their religion subforum in a thread entitled Christian Communism II about the merits of Christian Communism and its potential to solve the problem of the technological singularity and to make it possible to live out radically extended lifespans just as the Bible prophesies for the Millennium and beyond. Isaiah 65:20-25; Revelation 21:3-4.

May be serious Christians should consider living communally and reaping the benefits of living life simply without material possessions. It certainly would solve a lot of problems to do so.


Links removed per Rule 3.3....must have 20 total posts before linking.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Dunamite on Tue Jan 08, 2008 - 09:56:16
Communism is not the answer, but neither is capitalism. Jesus will bring about fairness when he returns. Until that time we will have to live in an unfair world. However, Christians should not compromise their values in order to exist in this world.

Satan rules the world. His fate is sealed, but until he is bound and put away he continues to infest us with his plots and schemes. If there is power and influence to be had, then Satan is bound to be in the middle of it. If he is in the middle of it, then you can be sure that he uses deception and guile to lull us to sleep and get our defenses down.

Communism, may be a scourge to many of you, but it is too obvious for Satan. I am sure that he was involved in communist dictatorships, if there was power to be had, and evil to do. But, I am mainly concerned with more insidious things.

If you think that Satan does not wield power in western democracies, then you do not understand the enemy and how he works. Satan wants global control. Name one corporation that does not want to be huge, powerful with global power. Just saying these things do not make them so. But the questions need to be asked.

I see inequality in capitalism. I do not see it as being benign in any way. I see it as being exploitive. I see it as centralizing wealth. I see it as creating classes or rich and poor, haves and have nots. I see the gap between rich and poor as an ever widening gulf. I see rich person exploiting poor and rich nation exploiting poor nation. These are gross simplifications. What is actually happening is very complex. There are no simple solutions.

I see this things as a professional, who came from working class parents himself. I put myself through university and raised a family. I understand both sides of the debate, having lived them. My problem is that I am a Christian, living a privileged life, in a clean, safe, prosperous country. I cannot reconcile my having what I have or even what my own countrymen have, based on global inequality.

I have paid lots of taxes over the years. Unlike many people, I do not resent them. I think that I should pay even more taxes. I think that others need a break and I do not care if it is at my expense. I think that if I only give from my excess and it does not hurt then it isn't really giving. I am speaking only for myself.

For the Christian, justifying wealth and privilege is indefensible. We can try, but there is too much scripture against it. We will all stand before God one day, and our life of excess and privilege will come back to bite us. I know this because Jesus' concerns were for the poor, the neglected and the sick. And Jesus will be my judge. It will do me no good for him to melt my heart of stone then. I want it done now.

Indulge me if you will. Ignore me if you want. But I will not be silent. If I am silenced here, I will go elsewhere. I have received personal messages suggesting that I am out of line from the moderator. I do not want to rain on anyone's parade. But if your objective is to continue to bash communism one-sidedly and ignore what is happening in your own backyard, that is your business. My purpose is to deal with injustice and to call things as I see them. Ironically this is the only board which I have run afoul on on the four boards that I am active on.

Perhaps this message will draw the censor's ire as did previous ones. I hope not. Not for me, but for you. I am convicted that God wants to use the internet for his purposes. This board is a blessing to all. I am thankful for the opportunity to participate and do not resent criticism at all. If I am wrong then I expect to be told so. I do not presume to be right in all things. God gave us all brains to think with and the Holy Spirit to help us to discern. I ask only that you use what God has given us.

Dissent is essential to uphold freedom and democratic values. America came into being as a result of dissent and in these times dissent is being silenced. I find this curious. If I am a crackpot then my views will convince no one. If I am spreading false teaching then my lies will catch up with me. If I speak the truth then, it should not be stopped.

I say these things respectfully and with Christian love.

Blessings,
Dunamite
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Thu Jan 10, 2008 - 08:31:04
Dunamite,

I have no doubt that your intentions are good.  However, I disagree with you.  I believe that a free market economy is a fundamental human right.  That is, I have more confidence in Dunamite than I do those who want to rule Dunamite.  The purpose of government is to protect folks from force and fraud.

From the libertarian party platform, here is something I agree with, to the letter:

Since governments, when instituted, must not violate individual rights, we oppose all interference by government in the areas of voluntary and contractual relations among individuals. People should not be forced to sacrifice their lives and property for the benefit of others. They should be left free by government to deal with one another as free traders; and the resultant economic system, the only one compatible with the protection of individual rights, is the free market.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Dunamite on Fri Jan 18, 2008 - 12:05:42
Dunamite,

I have no doubt that your intentions are good.  However, I disagree with you.  I believe that a free market economy is a fundamental human right.  That is, I have more confidence in Dunamite than I do those who want to rule Dunamite.  The purpose of government is to protect folks from force and fraud.

From the libertarian party platform, here is something I agree with, to the letter:

Since governments, when instituted, must not violate individual rights, we oppose all interference by government in the areas of voluntary and contractual relations among individuals. People should not be forced to sacrifice their lives and property for the benefit of others. They should be left free by government to deal with one another as free traders; and the resultant economic system, the only one compatible with the protection of individual rights, is the free market.

My intentions are good. I realize that my message is a stretch for most people. I feel it is well founded in scripture. Most people who embrace capitalism do not see it as evil. They are busy raising families and doing what they feel is right. However, this only makes it more insidious in my eyes.

We can hate communism because its evil is obvious, but Satan does not just do the obvious. He likes to use subterfuge and catch us with our guard down.

In the end times, the Beast will control capitalism. He will govern who can buy or sell. The free market if there is such a thing will not exist. I see this as already happening. I see capitalism doing what communism has failed to do. Corporations are global in their outreach. Their goal is world wide domination. What we refuse to accept from communism we embrace under capitalism. We are being propagandized by private media in the hands of corporations, yet do not see it as propaganda. We think that we have choice. We can turn it off. Can we? Where don't you see advertising?

Government is being transformed by the corporate agenda. National borders are being erased and nations are forming into trade blocs. These are because the national agenda is the corporate agenda. World government is coming in the form of world capitalism.

These things are all confirmed in prophecy. We will have large blocs, but they won't be communism. They will be dominated by Coke or Pepsi, McDonald's or Burger King.

The implications of what I am saying are huge. I am not trying to scare anyone. I am asking only that people turn on their brains and think. It is time for a reality check.

Most people will ignore what I am saying and go about being good consumers. Some will continue to pimp for world wide capitalism. This is their prerogative.  God gave us free will and scripture tells us how to discern truth.

We have the right to be wrong. I think that I am right and that it isn't too late. I know that the world cannot be reformed. People can change, though. They do not have to be the same today as they were yesterday.

I do not wish to defend communism. My initial postings were based on the ideal and the desire to be fair and reasonable. Reality is something else. I could never excuse what is happening in China. However, I don't see communism as being the threat. China's communist days are numbered. They too will be caught up in the allure of capitalism.

I don't see this as a left vs. right struggle. It isn't ideology that I am concerned with but spirituality. We are in a battle of cosmic proportions. Each person has to choose for him or herself. We are under attack. I am certain of this. My biggest concern is what is happening in our neighborhoods, right under our noses. I see Satan as not respecting national borders. He will use our own weakness against us, wherever it can be found. This isn't something that is happening in the future. It has been happening for centuries. Capitalism is the common denominator. It has facilitated Satan's work because it is so pervasive and attractive. It involves money and power. Two weaknesses of mankind. It is also about accumulation and centralization of wealth and power. This makes it more attractive to the Enemy.

I thank you for kind words about my intentions. I try to keep them pure, but it is a challenge for all of us.

Blessings,
Dunamite
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Tantor on Fri Jan 18, 2008 - 16:29:49
The only problems I have with a free market economy are usury(charging interest) and gambling (stock market).  All production needs to come from actual work instead of making money off of other peoples money.

Both things were forbidden in OT Israel for reasons that are so apparent to me now.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Sat Jan 19, 2008 - 18:54:16
What about in the NT in the parable of the talents where the  master chastised the one talent servant for not at least putting the talent in the bank and earn some interest?

I don't believe anything is inherently wrong with earning a return on an investment. Scripturally, farmers risk all to gain a 30 or 60 or 100 fold yield.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Dunamite on Tue Jan 22, 2008 - 11:52:38
What about in the NT in the parable of the talents where the  master chastised the one talent servant for not at least putting the talent in the bank and earn some interest?

I don't believe anything is inherently wrong with earning a return on an investment. Scripturally, farmers risk all to gain a 30 or 60 or 100 fold yield.
The fact that we invest or that the Bible asks us to be wise in our dealings does not change anything. We need to work and earn our daily bread. God blesses us and provides for us. That isn't the issue. It is how you choose to do it and how you practice what you say you believe.

My criticisms are based on the ethics which cause Christians to compromise their faith and values. The subject is communism and Christianity. I have tried to make a case for an even greater threat.

When we are attacked by Satan, it is effective because we let down our guard. We are to be wary and watchful. If he gains a foothold he will continue to worm his way in and corrupt us and all that we hold dear. The danger is that this has already happened.

The world is changing, but not in the way that I foresaw when I was growing up. We had air raid sirens in my neighborhood. We were taught to fear the commie hordes. We sent our young men to die in Korea and Vietnam to stop the domino effect and prevent worldwide communism. Now the cold war is all but over. Russia has many millionaires and billionaires. I suppose we should all cheer. I don't. It is too soon.

China is still a communist nation. However, it has a stock market. It is a one party state, but there is an emerging capitalism. Communism will be defeated there too, but not be virtue of an armed struggle. Now we are given other enemies to fear. Terrorist hordes threat to undo us and destroy what we have built. The consistency here is in the message, not in the enemy. There will always be some terrible enemy, imagined or real.

However, how can we be sure that we aren't the problem and not them? We are told that we are on the side of good and they on evil, but who is telling us these things. The Bible does not say that communism is bad. We heard that from those who know how to push our buttons. The Bible tells us that killing is bad, but it does not say that terrorism is bad. There is evil there, but perhaps it goes on both sides.

One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. The Americans used terrorism during the Revolutionary War. Civilians were killed on both sides to incite terror. The loyalists ended up in leaving because their lives and property were in danger had they stayed. i have no doubt that if America was occupied by a foreign power as Iraq is that Americans would fight back using any means available.

Nelson Mandella said that he was once regarded as a terrorist, but now he is regarded as a hero. It is all relative.

There is something behind all acts of violence. There is a beneficiary whenever violence proliferates. It does not matter who commits the violence, Satan benefits. It stands to reason that he is working in the hearts of our soldiers and our leaders because he is active in our own lives. He is tempting us and leading us all astray. Nobody is exempt. Least of all capitalism which is taking over the world and modifying the way nation states function.

Compare what is happening now and what happens in the last days. The signs are there. All we need is a rising dictator and things will be complete. The power is already there and the structures are emerging quickly. We just don't choose to recognize the danger and that is a mistake.

Blessings,
Dunamite
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: spurly on Tue Jan 22, 2008 - 18:20:50
The only problems I have with a free market economy are usury(charging interest) and gambling (stock market).  All production needs to come from actual work instead of making money off of other peoples money.

Both things were forbidden in OT Israel for reasons that are so apparent to me now.


It amazes me that people equate owning part of a business (purchasing stock) with gambling.  If that is the case no one should ever start a business because it is gambling that your business venture will succeed.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Tantor on Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 15:20:27
It amazes me that people equate owning part of a business (purchasing stock) with gambling.  If that is the case no one should ever start a business because it is gambling that your business venture will succeed.

Well said, Spurly. 

Folks, our economy thrives when investors are willing to fund companies that can better serve our society.  If Christians treat purchasing shares of a company solely as gambling, they are not seeing the bigger picture - investors contribute to developing companies that deliver the latest technology and services that make this society better.  Even more evident, such companies that receive the funding will EMPLOY more people - people like you and me who need jobs to buy goods and services - the end result is a stimulated economy.

The bottom line: invest in companies that truly make a positive impact on this world and you will be rewarded.  Anyone that thinks Venture capitalists are just some greedy gambling jerks should take a step back and actually observe the wonderful things that have produced fruit from such investments.  I live in Silicon Valley and I am humbled by the advancements made here.  Much of these accomplishments that make the Information Age what it is cannot have been done without some very smart investments.

First of all, only the IPO or subsequent stock offerings are actually funding the companies.  After that, it's all speculation and gambling by making money off of money.

Say I go right now and purchace 500 shares of Microsoft stock.. right then I either made money off of someone elses misfortune or paid a premium and made someone rich... NONE of my money ever goes back to fund the company.

The only thing an escalated price does for a company is let them offer fewer shares for more money if they need to raise additional capital.

And you know what?.. on the books of the company, the stock is only ever shown as a liability for the original purchase price.. the market value is irrevalent.

So the entire thing about funding a company is horse hockey 99% of the time.

Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Tantor on Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 16:08:27
I would rather see direct investments in companies, where the company sets the stock prices and delivers returns based on actual profits.  All stock can only be traded based on the set price of the company.

And horse hockey was a term i first heard in the M*A*S*H* TV show.. by Col. Potter.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Tantor on Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 16:10:19
I would rather see direct investments in companies, where the company sets the stock prices and delivers returns based on actual profits.  All stock can only be traded based on the set price of the company.  Where companies are actually beholding to their stockholders and CEO's and Directors can be held responsible personally for their decisions.

And horse hockey was a term i first heard in the M*A*S*H* TV show.. by Col. Potter.
Title: Re: Communism and Christianity
Post by: charlie on Fri Feb 08, 2008 - 11:14:01
I would rather see direct investments in companies, where the company sets the stock prices and delivers returns based on actual profits.  All stock can only be traded based on the set price of the company.

And horse hockey was a term i first heard in the M*A*S*H* TV show.. by Col. Potter.

Nice.

I also liked "buffalo bagels". MASH was a great show.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: j miller on Tue Jun 24, 2008 - 14:07:06
The inclinations of those that would shirk man's natural autonomy in
favor of central government(communism) go back as far as when the Israelites demanded an earthly king. 
Title: Re: RE: Communism and Christianity
Post by: Frankie on Sun Jul 13, 2008 - 14:31:54
Any political system will work (communism, socialism, democracy, empire dictatorship) as long as there are good leaders who put the people needs first.

The problem is that the leaders are not good and the people needs take a back seat to personal power and glory.

I vote republican because their agenda takes into consideration people like me.  The demon-crates have nothing to offer people like me.

I am not a minority
I am not a homosexual
I am against abortion
I believe in the freedom of religion
I believe in the right to keep and bear arms
I understand that diplomacy prevents war it doesn't win war.

The demon-crates have nothing to offer so why vote for them?


VERY WELL PUT!  ::clappingoverhead::
Title: Re: RE: Communism and Christianity
Post by: cyberella on Tue Aug 05, 2008 - 11:29:33


OBAMA MOCKS THE BIBLE


GO TO YOUTUBE, SEARCH 'SERMON ON THE MOUNT':
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FCNKwHRCQM&eurl=http://www.phforamerica


Marx: 'Religion is the opiate of the masses....tear it down and you control them'.

"AND FIGHT THEM UNTIL THERE IS NO PERSECUTION , AND RELIGION SHALL BE ONLY FOR ALLAH 2:193


"ISLAM ISN'T IN AMERICA TO BE EQUAL TO ANY OTHER FAITH, BUT TO BECOME DOMINANT. The Koran ... should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth. Everthing we need to know is in the Koran. We don't need to look somewhere else." OMAR M. AHMAD, CHAIRMAN OF CAIR,the mainsteam Muslim advocacy group.  

Quote from Barack Obama’s book, Dreams Of My Father:
"THE PERSON WHO MADE ME PROUDEST OF ALL, THOUGH, WAS MY [half brother], ROY..HE CONVERTED TO ISLAM".

From ‘Dreams of my Father’, "IN INDONESIA, I SPEND TWO YEARS AT A MUSLIM SCHOOL" "..I STUDIED THE KORAN.."

From ‘Audacity of Hope: "LOLO (Obama’s step father) FOLLOWED ISLAM...."I LOOKED TO LOLO FOR GUIDANCE".

From ‘The Audacity Of Hope, "I WILL STAND WITH THEM (MUSLIMS) SHOULD THE POLITICAL WINDS OF WAR SHIFT IN AN UGLY DIRECTION.."


From The Audacity Of Hope, "WE ARE NO LONGER JUST A CHRISTIAN NATION, we are also a Jewish nation, a MUSLIM NATION, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers."

http://www.examiner.com/a-536474~_Trapped_between_two_worlds_.html
http://www.examiner.com/a-534540~Can_a_past_of_Islam_change_the_path_to_president_for_Obama_.html?cid=dc-article-obama


(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a244/Texasrose1/obamamuslimgarb2.jpg)

(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a244/Texasrose1/obamaandmccain.jpg)
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: KingsKid on Tue Aug 05, 2008 - 21:18:15
I love that picture of McCain in the above post.  ::smile::

I can't even imagine how any sane American person could think Obama should be our president. It baffles me in a way I can't even explain.

I heard him talking about a 1000.00 dollar tax credit. Sad how many people are going to sell out for a 1000.00 dollars. He's dangling a carrot in front of people and foolishly they follow.  That is going to be the most costly thousand dollars any one has ever received if this man wins.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: cyberella on Tue Aug 12, 2008 - 23:13:34



Obama is a dangerous Marxist/Muslim.


OBAMA MOCKS THE BIBLE
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXcvbnzNIjg


Marx: 'Religion is the opiate of the masses....tear it down and you control them'.


"AND FIGHT THEM UNTIL THERE IS NO PERSECUTION , AND RELIGION SHALL BE ONLY FOR ALLAH 2:193 KORAN

"ISLAM ISN'T IN AMERICA TO BE EQUAL TO ANY OTHER FAITH, BUT TO BECOME DOMINANT. The Koran ... should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth. Everthing we need to know is in the Koran. We don't need to look somewhere else." OMAR M. AHMAD, CHAIRMAN OF CAIR,the mainsteam Muslim advocacy group.

Quote from Barack Obama’s book, Dreams Of My Father:
"THE PERSON WHO MADE ME PROUDEST OF ALL, THOUGH, WAS MY [half brother], ROY..HE CONVERTED TO ISLAM".

From ‘Dreams of my Father’, "IN INDONESIA, I SPEND TWO YEARS AT A MUSLIM SCHOOL" "..I STUDIED THE KORAN.."

From ‘Audacity of Hope: "LOLO (Obama’s step father) FOLLOWED ISLAM...."I LOOKED TO LOLO FOR GUIDANCE".

From ‘The Audacity Of Hope, "I WILL STAND WITH THEM (MUSLIMS) SHOULD THE POLITICAL WINDS OF WAR **** IN AN UGLY DIRECTION.."

From The Audacity Of Hope, "WE ARE NO LONGER JUST A CHRISTIAN NATION, we are also a Jewish nation, a MUSLIM NATION, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers."

http://www.examiner.com/a-536474~_Trapped_between_two_worlds_.html
http://www.examiner.com/a-534540~Can_a_past_of_Islam_change_the_path_to_president_for_Obama_.html?cid=dc-article-obama
.



Obama speech- 'Disarm America':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl32Y7wDVDs

First, I'll stop spending $9 billion a month in Iraq. I'm the only major candidate who opposed this war from the beginning. And as president I will end it.[i.e. not win it]

Second, I will cut tens of billions of dollars in wasteful spending.

I will cut investments in unproven missile defense systems.
I will not weaponize space.

I will slow our development of future combat systems.
And I will institute an independent "Defense Priorities Board" to ensure that the Quadrennial Defense Review is not used to justify unnecessary spending.

Third, I will set a goal of a world without nuclear weapons. To seek that goal, I will not develop new nuclear weapons; I will seek a global ban on the production of fissile material; and I will negotiate with Russia to take our ICBMs off hair-trigger alert, and to achieve deep cuts in our nuclear arsenals.

And what do we do when America's military is gutted and the rogue nations are nuked up?





Obamas insult America:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TUqS-Vs0Qs&eurl=http://pumaparty.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1779


Obama went overseas to promise the “people of the world
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: cyberella on Tue Aug 19, 2008 - 14:11:49


To obama supporters, those undecided:


More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined. http://www.crisismagazine.com/october2003/madden.htm (http://www.crisismagazine.com/october2003/madden.htm)

Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years. http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchingyear.html (http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchingyear.html)

More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland. http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/death95w.htm (http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/death95w.htm)

19 Muslim hijackers killed more innocents in two hours on September 11th than the number of American criminals executed in the last 65 years. http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/death95w.htm (http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/death95w.htm)





MUSLIMS BELIEVE THE KORAN IS THE PERFECT WORD OF GOD as dictated to Mohammed.

This is only the tip of the iceberg. 80- 90 percent of the Koran is composed of this kind advocacy for murder, conquering , looting and rape:



WARFARE IS ORDAINED FOR YOU, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. (2.216)

Sura 33 (a promise to faithful Muslims of countries to conquer) "And he bequeathed to you their lands, their homes and their possessions, together with land you have never trodden" (33.27) .

"Be patient with unbelievers until you have strength" (86.17).

(Muslims are quiet until they have the numbers to start demanding their way in the country they have invaded)

Fight those among the People of the Book [i.e. Jews and Christians] ... who do not profess the true religion, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued. (9.29)

Quran 3:28 Don't have unbelieving friends unless it is to deceive them. Remember the final goal is to Allah.



"AND FIGHT THEM UNTIL THERE IS NO PERSECUTION , AND RELIGION SHALL BE ONLY FOR ALLAH 2:193

Quran 9:33 ISLAM WILL PREVAIL OVER ALL RELIGIONS

"ISLAM ISN'T IN AMERICA TO BE EQUAL TO ANY OTHER FAITH, BUT TO BECOME DOMINANT. The Koran ... should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth. Everthing we need to know is in the Koran. We don't need to look somewhere else." OMAR M. AHMAD, CHAIRMAN OF CAIR,the mainsteam Muslim advocacy group.







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKUoxbR9mwA



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1qmFEujEtk



WELCOME TO SWEDEN (Coming to USA unless we act)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JBpVAj4ILM



MUSLIMS DESECRATING FLAG AND CONDEMING AMERICA IN NYC:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO74GwUTZj4

There are one billion Muslims in the world, but not one authoritative Muslim organization anywhere has condemned Islamic terror generally (some have condemned 9-11 specifically). All have come out in favor Palestinian terror against Jews, and none has condemned the cult of death developed among Palestinian Muslims in which the Creator is depicted as supplying 72 virgin women to any teenage Muslim boy who blows himself up while murdering Jews (pigs per Qur'an) and Americans (Christians -- monkeys, as the Qur'an states). CAIR issued a "fatwa" condemning the 9/11 attack, stating innocents are never the target of Islamic aggression (but they failed to mention that all infidels are never 'innocent').

 There are almost no Muslim democracies in the world; in the Arab world, there are no Muslim democracies.Wherever Islamists take power, a totalitarian regime is set up, and the denials of basic human rights follow. One or more of the Islamic regimes -- Afghanistan, Sudan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Libya -- have either engaged in genocide or supported Islamic regimes that have forbidden all other religious expressions, have exported terror, and have placed women to a status well beneath that of a woman in 10th century Europe. They are, with the exception of North Korea, the cruelest places on earth.



Then absorb this:

In an interview with Nicholas Kristof, published in The New York Times, Obama recited the Muslim call to prayer, the Adhan, "with a first-class [Arabic] accent."
The opening lines of the Adhan (Azaan) is the Shahada:

"Allah is Supreme! Allah is Supreme!
Allah is Supreme! Allah is Supreme!
I witness that there is no god but Allah
I witness that there is no god but Allah
I witness that Muhammad is his prophet? "

According to Islamic scholars, reciting the Shahada, the Muslim declaration of faith, makes one a Muslim. This simple yet profound statement expresses a Muslim's complete acceptance of, and total commitment to, the message of Islam. Obama chanted it with pride and finesse.



Quote from Barack Obama’s book, Dreams Of My Father:
"THE PERSON WHO MADE ME PROUDEST OF ALL, THOUGH, WAS MY [half brother], ROY..HE CONVERTED TO ISLAM".

From ‘Dreams of my Father’, "IN INDONESIA, I SPEND TWO YEARS AT A MUSLIM SCHOOL" "..I STUDIED THE KORAN.."

From ‘Audacity of Hope: "LOLO (Obama’s step father) FOLLOWED ISLAM...."I LOOKED TO LOLO FOR GUIDANCE".

From ‘The Audacity Of Hope, "I WILL STAND WITH THEM (MUSLIMS) SHOULD THE POLITICAL WINDS OF WAR SHIFT IN AN UGLY DIRECTION.."

From The Audacity Of Hope, "WE ARE NO LONGER JUST A CHRISTIAN NATION, we are also a Jewish nation, a MUSLIM NATION, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers."

http://www.examiner.com/a-536474~_Trapped_between_two_worlds_.html

http://www.examiner.com/a-534540~Can_a_past_of_Islam_change_the_path_to_president_for_Obama_.html?cid=dc-article-obama


Do you really want to take a chance?
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: WhoIsLikeUntoGOD? on Sat Sep 06, 2008 - 09:16:18
Communism is vile!!!

Go take your sleeping bag and sleep in the mass graves created by Pol Pot.  Come back and tell me how wonderful communism is then.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: divine_providence on Wed Oct 08, 2008 - 07:53:50
Atheist (Communism) Atrocities: Frightening Stats About Atheists

[youtube=425,350]vW62EilDXPY[/youtube]
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: ElijahRev113 on Sat Oct 11, 2008 - 20:40:37
The topic presents a false dichotomy based on confused thinking.

Christianity is a religion not a political system nor is it a political
party, all though many cultural Christians in the US equate the two.
And many people affiliated with a Christian church are not Believers in
Jesus Christ as One True Redeemer.

Communism is a political system, albeit with religious and economic
dictates.

The thread might have yielded more fruit as Communism vs Capitalism
Or Christianity vs Atheism.

Or better yet, Christianity under & despite Communism

Just an observation.
Title: Re: RE: Communism and Christianity
Post by: TheSocialistChrist on Wed Oct 29, 2008 - 12:18:15
I think the trend toward exclusivity, closed-mindedness and "give me your money for the greater good" that the church exhibits (and usually exploits) is very Communist. In many situations, most of that money goes to the administration or the building... not the people in the community who need it. They don't need a pretty building to worship in - they need food, diapers, decent housing, and other things that Socialism provides.

PS. Communism is corrupt Socialism. We should compare Christianity with Socialism. The similarities are ASTOUNDING! Don't look into it if you don't want to change the way you think. The facts are undeniable. Read Jesus' teachings on the poor, orphans, and widows. Then think how about socialistic it sounds.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Jimbob on Wed Oct 29, 2008 - 12:25:24
Hmm.  Got a book, chapter, and verse quoting Jesus advocating "theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy."

Good luck with that.  ::reading::
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: TheSocialistChrist on Wed Oct 29, 2008 - 12:49:46
Hmm.  Got a book, chapter, and verse quoting Jesus advocating "theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy."

Good luck with that.  ::reading::

Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Mark 10:21
Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Luke 11:46
Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.

Luke 12:33
Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

Luke 14:12-14
Then Jesus said to his host, "When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."

Luke 18:22
When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Luke 19:8-10
Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount." Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

2 Corinthians 8:9
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Jimmy on Wed Oct 29, 2008 - 12:52:20
Hmm.  Got a book, chapter, and verse quoting Jesus advocating "theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy."

Good luck with that.  ::reading::

Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Mark 10:21
Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Luke 11:46
Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.

Luke 12:33
Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

Luke 14:12-14
Then Jesus said to his host, "When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."

Luke 18:22
When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Luke 19:8-10
Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount." Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

2 Corinthians 8:9
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.

None of that has anything to do one way or the other with a form of government.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: TheSocialistChrist on Wed Oct 29, 2008 - 12:54:34
Hmm.  Got a book, chapter, and verse quoting Jesus advocating "theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy."

Good luck with that.  ::reading::


None of that has anything to do one way or the other with a form of government.

No, but it does show that it isn't an unGodly form of government.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Jimbob on Thu Oct 30, 2008 - 12:43:17
It doesn't say anything about government whatsoever, godly or ungodly.  It speaks of personal responsibility not government intrusion and redistribution.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: fanuvmxpx on Sat Nov 01, 2008 - 02:19:33
I agree with this topic, but I think many Americans want a democratic ideal because they are lazy, want to mooch of welfare/social security/unemployment forever, and want a life with "zero risk". Sorry, that's just not how life works, and its so sad that Americans have been raised to believe that.

I've worked since I was 16, back when minimum wage was 5.25/hour, and my current net worth is (negative) -$350,000. Now will I have this paid off some day? Sure...but life isn't fun with the debt of a house and student loans. No free rides, no free lunches, capitalism should rule.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: admin on Thu Nov 06, 2008 - 15:50:29
I agree with this topic, but I think many Americans want a democratic ideal because they are lazy, want to mooch of welfare/social security/unemployment forever, and want a life with "zero risk". Sorry, that's just not how life works, and its so sad that Americans have been raised to believe that.

I've worked since I was 16, back when minimum wage was 5.25/hour, and my current net worth is (negative) -$350,000. Now will I have this paid off some day? Sure...but life isn't fun with the debt of a house and student loans. No free rides, no free lunches, capitalism should rule.

fanuvmxpx, are you changing your tune or am I confusing you with someone else. I thought you were an Obama fan and he supports a massive welfare state.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: fanuvmxpx on Thu Nov 06, 2008 - 19:02:11
fanuvmxpx, are you changing your tune or am I confusing you with someone else. I thought you were an Obama fan and he supports a massive welfare state.

No, I'm Independent, I actually didn't vote for McCain or Obama. I'll lay out my voting stance from this year...

I was never going to Vote for Obama. I was a McCain supporter until he selected Palin as his VP and I decided to vote third party this year. Any non-democratic vote in my state doesn't do any good anyways, too many far lefties here (CA).
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Charles Sloan on Fri Nov 07, 2008 - 11:08:27
I was a McCain supporter until he selected Palin as his VP and I decided to vote third party this year.

Why did McCain's running mate make you decide against voting republican?
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: fanuvmxpx on Fri Nov 07, 2008 - 15:32:40
Why did McCain's running mate make you decide against voting republican?

Well, I've never been in the republican party, always independent, it allows me to step back from the political fighting and look at all candidates (there's usually about 8 or so every year) and make a decision on who could best help the country.

I'm a big advocate of having a strong VP, for the sole reason that we never know what the future holds. McCain seems as strong & healthy as an oxe, that never worried me, but JFK among others looked healthy too. Point being, I have always voted for a strong vice president along with the president.

Governor Palin is a very nice woman, and she has wonderful morals, and lots have said "well, she's outside of politics so it could be a refreshing change." I couldn't agree more, but her lack of education regarding international affairs & economics could be very dangerous as a potential president. McCain was well versed in international affairs, but Palin was not, and I couldn't cast my vote for that reason.

I always vote for morals first, than intelligence, and lastly, party. It helps me pick the best candidate (in my opinion of course) without getting involved in the bickering of the two-party system. I hope that explains it alright.

I voted for Chuck Baldwin / Darrell Castle. The Constitution Party.


"Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." -- John Quincy Adams
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: discipleron on Fri Nov 07, 2008 - 20:01:26
Fully understanding this discussion to be about human governments, please, allow me to remind we disciples of Christ that as His followers, as members of His body (the Church), as citizens of the Kingdom of God, our allegiance belongs to our King: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. As I understand it, God's Kingdom, by virtue of being a kingdom, would be what we might call a "monarchy." As subjects in this particular monarchy, we can rely upon our King to provide for our needs, to protect us from our enemies, and to take responsibility for our welfare. In return we owe to Him our worship, our praise, our adoration, and our obedience. Such is life in a monarchy; but, oh what a life indeed when the King is God! God told Israel that having a human king was not such a great idea, but that was because He wanted them to have Him as their King, no one else.

I was born in these United States of America. I am legally one of her citizens. Please, do not think me treasonous, but I am a Christian first, which means to me that I am first a citizen of the Kingdom of God and one of His subjects. My citizenship in any nation of this earth ended when God called me to Him. The government to which I am subject is a Holy Monarchy, and the Triune Christ is my King.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: the innate on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 11:12:12
the only time jesus was a capitalist in the bible is when he told the rich man to SELL all of his belongings and follow him...
the rest points to jesus being  a certain kind of communist...

let it be noted that the failed communist governments in recent times also hold a strict anit-religion stance...
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: fanuvmxpx on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 13:36:39
Every economic system is flawed. And just because a twisted ruler/country perverts an economic system does not make it inherently bad.

In a perfect society, where everyone was treated equal, communism would be an excellent economic choice...because all would be treated equal. The problem is, when you throw sin into the picture, no system is safe, but at least a democracy/capitalist society gives "some" influence to the people.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Corbley on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 17:01:07
Every economic system is flawed. And just because a twisted ruler/country perverts an economic system does not make it inherently bad.

In a perfect society, where everyone was treated equal, communism would be an excellent economic choice...because all would be treated equal. The problem is, when you throw sin into the picture, no system is safe, but at least a democracy/capitalist society gives "some" influence to the people.

Our economic system became flawed when it became the IMF.......
Before then, throughout history, it has always been backed by a "tangable" commodity. (Gold, silver, gems, barter/trade)

Now it is backed by nothing but debt and that is the reason it is failing.....Not Dem's, Not Republicans......Because it is nothing but debt, that drives our economy.

The economic stress we are in now is the economy leaving the debt backed system (The IMF) and converting back to a Gold standard.
The Market will crash!...It is only a matter of when (not if)

Personally, I hope that it does sooner than later.....I would rather go through it than my kids
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: fanuvmxpx on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 17:14:47
Our economic system became flawed when it became the IMF.......
Before then, throughout history, it has always been backed by a "tangable" commodity. (Gold, silver, gems, barter/trade)

Now it is backed by nothing but debt and that is the reason it is failing.....Not Dem's, Not Republicans......Because it is nothing but debt, that drives our economy.

The economic stress we are in now is the economy leaving the debt backed system (The IMF) and converting back to a Gold standard.
The Market will crash!...It is only a matter of when (not if)

Personally, I hope that it does sooner than later.....I would rather go through it than my kids

I couldn't agree more Corbley, I've been a practicing economist for decades. Do you agree with me on something I wonder?...

I believe that our US budget won't collapse our economy, but rather when the world "calls our loans" for all those Treasury Bonds they are holding. Its hard to tell, because on the one hand, they could "take out" America financially...but then who would buy their products? I'm pretty convinced that if the American financial system fails, everyone will.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Corbley on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 17:51:21
Our economic system became flawed when it became the IMF.......
Before then, throughout history, it has always been backed by a "tangable" commodity. (Gold, silver, gems, barter/trade)

Now it is backed by nothing but debt and that is the reason it is failing.....Not Dem's, Not Republicans......Because it is nothing but debt, that drives our economy.

The economic stress we are in now is the economy leaving the debt backed system (The IMF) and converting back to a Gold standard.
The Market will crash!...It is only a matter of when (not if)

Personally, I hope that it does sooner than later.....I would rather go through it than my kids

I couldn't agree more Corbley, I've been a practicing economist for decades. Do you agree with me on something I wonder?...

I believe that our US budget won't collapse our economy, but rather when the world "calls our loans" for all those Treasury Bonds they are holding. Its hard to tell, because on the one hand, they could "take out" America financially...but then who would buy their products? I'm pretty convinced that if the American financial system fails, everyone will.

I do agree, but I think it may happen a little different.....Like perhaps, ceasing assets owned...instead of calling in debt...They could control certain infrastructures
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: the innate on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 03:48:20

I believe that our US budget won't collapse our economy, but rather when the world "calls our loans" for all those Treasury Bonds they are holding. Its hard to tell, because on the one hand, they could "take out" America financially...but then who would buy their products? I'm pretty convinced that if the American financial system fails, everyone will.

I do agree, but I think it may happen a little different.....Like perhaps, ceasing assets owned...instead of calling in debt...They could control certain infrastructures
and control they will, but it still takes at the very least two to trade, barter, deal, etc....
the global economy is very real and becoming more realized.... in a very real sense, 'them' is 'us'

every morning the nyse opens on the heels of the asian markets
it's all different shades of the same world...

Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Corbley on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 12:44:43

I believe that our US budget won't collapse our economy, but rather when the world "calls our loans" for all those Treasury Bonds they are holding. Its hard to tell, because on the one hand, they could "take out" America financially...but then who would buy their products? I'm pretty convinced that if the American financial system fails, everyone will.

I do agree, but I think it may happen a little different.....Like perhaps, ceasing assets owned...instead of calling in debt...They could control certain infrastructures
and control they will, but it still takes at the very least two to trade, barter, deal, etc....
the global economy is very real and becoming more realized.... in a very real sense, 'them' is 'us'

every morning the nyse opens on the heels of the asian markets
it's all different shades of the same world...


Right! The whole world economic system is becoming bound together....It is the begining of the New World Order (Or Globalization, if you perfer....They are the same thing)
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: the innate on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 23:47:30

I believe that our US budget won't collapse our economy, but rather when the world "calls our loans" for all those Treasury Bonds they are holding. Its hard to tell, because on the one hand, they could "take out" America financially...but then who would buy their products? I'm pretty convinced that if the American financial system fails, everyone will.

I do agree, but I think it may happen a little different.....Like perhaps, ceasing assets owned...instead of calling in debt...They could control certain infrastructures
and control they will, but it still takes at the very least two to trade, barter, deal, etc....
the global economy is very real and becoming more realized.... in a very real sense, 'them' is 'us'

every morning the nyse opens on the heels of the asian markets
it's all different shades of the same world...


Right! The whole world economic system is becoming bound together....It is the begining of the New World Order (Or Globalization, if you perfer....They are the same thing)
okay, new world order
surely you're not suggesting that i should be scared of a new world order?

if it's god's plan, it's god's plan... am i to fight it?
as a believer, it's more of a reminder to get more people on board than a subject of worry and fear.

Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Corbley on Mon Nov 17, 2008 - 09:59:22

I believe that our US budget won't collapse our economy, but rather when the world "calls our loans" for all those Treasury Bonds they are holding. Its hard to tell, because on the one hand, they could "take out" America financially...but then who would buy their products? I'm pretty convinced that if the American financial system fails, everyone will.

I do agree, but I think it may happen a little different.....Like perhaps, ceasing assets owned...instead of calling in debt...They could control certain infrastructures
and control they will, but it still takes at the very least two to trade, barter, deal, etc....
the global economy is very real and becoming more realized.... in a very real sense, 'them' is 'us'

every morning the nyse opens on the heels of the asian markets
it's all different shades of the same world...


Right! The whole world economic system is becoming bound together....It is the begining of the New World Order (Or Globalization, if you perfer....They are the same thing)
okay, new world order
surely you're not suggesting that i should be scared of a new world order?

if it's god's plan, it's god's plan... am i to fight it?
as a believer, it's more of a reminder to get more people on board than a subject of worry and fear.



You are absolutely correct.....I welcome the "New World Order" or Globalization (if you prefer),  When we see that come to life, then Christ will be coming soon after that......No the NWO is nothing to fear for Christians, it is something we should welcome and be encouraged by.....Along with the rise of the Anti-Christ.....I welcome these things and know that when we begin to see these things unfold......The wickedness of this world is going to be punished; the greed of the most wealthy, their arrogance...and in the end they will be bowing to us servants of Christ..........No brother, I do welcome the NWO,   It is part of God's perfect plan,  SO you misunderstood, what I was trying to say.    (We are on the same page)
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: the innate on Tue Nov 18, 2008 - 09:17:29

I believe that our US budget won't collapse our economy, but rather when the world "calls our loans" for all those Treasury Bonds they are holding. Its hard to tell, because on the one hand, they could "take out" America financially...but then who would buy their products? I'm pretty convinced that if the American financial system fails, everyone will.

I do agree, but I think it may happen a little different.....Like perhaps, ceasing assets owned...instead of calling in debt...They could control certain infrastructures
and control they will, but it still takes at the very least two to trade, barter, deal, etc....
the global economy is very real and becoming more realized.... in a very real sense, 'them' is 'us'

every morning the nyse opens on the heels of the asian markets
it's all different shades of the same world...


Right! The whole world economic system is becoming bound together....It is the begining of the New World Order (Or Globalization, if you perfer....They are the same thing)
okay, new world order
surely you're not suggesting that i should be scared of a new world order?

if it's god's plan, it's god's plan... am i to fight it?
as a believer, it's more of a reminder to get more people on board than a subject of worry and fear.



You are absolutely correct.....I welcome the "New World Order" or Globalization (if you prefer),  When we see that come to life, then Christ will be coming soon after that......No the NWO is nothing to fear for Christians, it is something we should welcome and be encouraged by.....Along with the rise of the Anti-Christ.....I welcome these things and know that when we begin to see these things unfold......The wickedness of this world is going to be punished; the greed of the most wealthy, their arrogance...and in the end they will be bowing to us servants of Christ..........No brother, I do welcome the NWO,   It is part of God's perfect plan,  SO you misunderstood, what I was trying to say.    (We are on the same page)

i admittedly have prejudices... i apologize... i'm actually learning that there is humility and reason within the christian community...

again, i apologize...
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 07:55:04
Our economic system became flawed when it became the IMF.......
Before then, throughout history, it has always been backed by a "tangable" commodity. (Gold, silver, gems, barter/trade)

No, some folks only clung to the myth that such is possible.  The normal banking process makes a gold standard logically impossible.

Quote
Now it is backed by nothing but debt and that is the reason it is failing.....Not Dem's, Not Republicans......Because it is nothing but debt, that drives our economy.

It is "backed", whatever that means, by what our economy has always actually been backed by, the productivity and ingenuity of our people.

Quote
The economic stress we are in now is the economy leaving the debt backed system (The IMF) and converting back to a Gold standard.
The Market will crash!...It is only a matter of when (not if)

Since a gold standard is logically impossible, we won't be converting back to it. 

It appears that you are either a socialist or a communist, since you advocate a gold standard.  Which?  If you protest that you are neither, keep in mind that advocating a gold standard does make it so since you are for the government telling the miners what their product is worth. 
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Jimbob on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 08:08:33
14 pages when all that's really needed is a simple answer to this question:  Who would call these "Christian Nations"?

People's Republic of China
Republic of Cuba
North Korea
Laos
Vietnam
And just for old time's sake, the USSR during its 70 year experiment

Anyone?  Anyone?
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Tantor on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 08:56:58
14 pages when all that's really needed is a simple answer to this question:  Who would call these "Christian Nations"?

People's Republic of China
Republic of Cuba
North Korea
Laos
Vietnam
And just for old time's sake, the USSR during its 70 year experiment

Anyone?  Anyone?

Is there anyone out there that is repulsed by even the idea of a 'christian nation' to begin with.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Jimbob on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 09:16:16
Well, in my book there's really no such thing, but I think you get my drift.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: fanuvmxpx on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 13:05:07
No, some folks only clung to the myth that such is possible.  The normal banking process makes a gold standard logically impossible.

It is "backed", whatever that means, by what our economy has always actually been backed by, the productivity and ingenuity of our people.

Since a gold standard is logically impossible, we won't be converting back to it. 

It appears that you are either a socialist or a communist, since you advocate a gold standard.  Which?  If you protest that you are neither, keep in mind that advocating a gold standard does make it so since you are for the government telling the miners what their product is worth.

Mere Nick, I see what you are saying, but in Corbley's defense:

The Federal Reserve is not a normal banking process, it has the power to "coin" money from nothing. I mean sure, we issue treasury bonds, but America is a consumption nation...we hardly produce anything. And even the things we do produce (US Auto Industry) are failing. So, if the dollar is backed by us (US citizen production) than its value is decreasing daily.

I don't think banks should convert back to a gold standard, I just feel the currency coiner (Fed) should be backed against a tangible asset (oil, metal, something). If Big American businesses fail (as they are now) the entire country goes down, not just the people who did the bad things, that's the flaw with our economic system.

The dollar's value is realized by the success of major American companies. The success of major American companies is realized by the investments interests of the entire world economy. The Federal Reserve is a non-government entity whose primary concern is keeping the entire world's currencies up.

All the current economic signs would suggest that idealized/realized currency value does not work. US businesses are failing, which in turn makes our citizens fail, which in turn makes the world fail. Which is why we will have one world currency, because it will be backed by the whole world and I'm sure the anti-christ will claim this will eliminate any ripple effects with business. If money is at peace, the world is at peace.

Lastly, the market value of gold would still be decided by supply/demand from the entire world...so the US government could not regulate its value (if they followed the laws of economics). If your money is backed by something, it doesn't render capitalism null, it simply doesn't allow people to live in a 'dream world' that America will always be on top because it is America & we have bigger guns. Its all tied together, fear, money, greed, and America is a superpower because we employ all 3. I love our freedoms, but I also think we need to pay for our mistakes and live realistically.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: admin on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 17:54:25
the only time jesus was a capitalist in the bible is when he told the rich man to SELL all of his belongings and follow him...
the rest points to jesus being  a certain kind of communist...

let it be noted that the failed communist governments in recent times also hold a strict anit-religion stance...


You are really making a massive, inappropriate leap here. Just because Jesus told one man that he needed to sell all his things doesn't mean it applies to everyone. He didn't tell the disciples to stop being fisherman which supplied them with income. He didn't tell Zacchaeus to stop being a tax collector. Jesus said in Luke 10:7 that a worker deserves his pay.

It was simply one man who thought he had it all together and Jesus found a weakness in the armor. The guy loved money more than Jesus.

You can be a wealthy person, having worked hard as the Bible commands, been wise with your money as the Bible book of Proverbs teaches and follow Jesus. You can do lots of good things with money. It is the "LOVE of money" that is "the root of all kinds of evil." Having money - even lots of it - is not the problem, loving it is.

Jesus had a specific mission at that point. If the man sold his posessions and "followed" Jesus he would be doing so for a specific purpose. He would have been one of the disciples and would have followed Jesus to specific places to do specific things at the SPECIFIC instruction of Jesus. Later, after Jesus went to be with the Father, we read Paul telling people to stay in the situation they're in and to lead people to Jesus within our lifestyle and situation (1 Corinthians 7).

Money feeds people. Money does a lot of good. It's the LOVE of money that is bad, not having money and even having lots of it.

Furthermore, Jesus was not proposing a system of government. When a government tries to control money, it has failed because the ones who control it have all the power. Communism can never work in a world of imperfect people. Capitalism, however, if left alone by the government, offers a limitless flow of money. Everyone can access it. Rich people invest, buy, loan and donate. They don't simply bury their money in a bucket in the backyard. They invest in businesses, hoping for a return, and, if the business is successful, that creates income for others. They buy products, which pays salaries and funds a business, they loan money which can start a business, build a house, buy a car to get to work, etc.

If you provide a product or service that society wants, they reward you for it with currency/money. That way, you can provide a service if you want or work with/for someone who does. You can work long hours to produce a better service or better product and be rewarded more. Or you can work the minimum amount to pay your bills. It's your choice in a free market/capitalist system. You can use your creativity and talents to serve mankind and be rewarded for it. In communism, a government decides what you do, where you live to do it and how much you are compensated. There's no such thing as working more to earn more or making a better product to earn more--you have to stand in line like everyone else to get your ration of toliet paper for the week. Don't be fooled. History has shown that it's a terrible that crucifies freedom. People risk their lives to float on old doors across the ocean to escape communist Cuba. They don't do that because communism is just so awesome. They do that for freedom.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 18:47:06
Mere Nick, I see what you are saying, but in Corbley's defense:

The Federal Reserve is not a normal banking process, it has the power to "coin" money from nothing.


The normal banking process creates and destroys money by the issuance and repayments of loans.  It happens regardless of the existence of a Federal Reserve, gold standard, whatever you name.

Quote
I mean sure, we issue treasury bonds, but America is a consumption nation...we hardly produce anything. And even the things we do produce (US Auto Industry) are failing. So, if the dollar is backed by us (US citizen production) than its value is decreasing daily.


The dollar is backed by our actual production.  Do you remember the equation mv=pq?

Quote
I don't think banks should convert back to a gold standard, I just feel the currency coiner (Fed) should be backed against a tangible asset (oil, metal, something).


In short, you want the government to control the price of something, for whatever reason, but you just can't make up your mind what you want it to control.

Quote
The Federal Reserve is a non-government entity whose primary concern is keeping the entire world's currencies up.


It is independent within the government.  The president appoints the board of governors, subject to senate approval.

Quote
All the current economic signs would suggest that idealized/realized currency value does not work. US businesses are failing, which in turn makes our citizens fail, which in turn makes the world fail. Which is why we will have one world currency, because it will be backed by the whole world and I'm sure the anti-christ will claim this will eliminate any ripple effects with business. If money is at peace, the world is at peace.


The signs tell me what doesn't work is governmental involvement in economic decision making based upon partisan concerns.  This financial meltdown is due to the CRA-Fannie Mae-Freddie Mac mess. 

Quote
Lastly, the market value of gold would still be decided by supply/demand from the entire world...so the US government could not regulate its value (if they followed the laws of economics). If your money is backed by something, it doesn't render capitalism null, it simply doesn't allow people to live in a 'dream world' that America will always be on top because it is America & we have bigger guns. Its all tied together, fear, money, greed, and America is a superpower because we employ all 3. I love our freedoms, but I also think we need to pay for our mistakes and live realistically.


You completely contradict yourself here.  The idea of backing money with anything is a logical impossibility.  Visit this website (http://www.ingrimayne.com/econ/Banking/Overview10ma.html) for an explanation of why it is impossible and, therefore, a complete waste of time to seriously consider it.  It's already been tried and it fails.

However, if there is a gold standard than, yes, it destroys any idea of market value.  Let's say the government pegs the dollar at 800 being worth an ounce of gold.  Why would anyone ever consider paying one cent more when they can buy it from the US government at that price?  Why would anyone sell for a penny less when they can sell to the government at that price?

You might also find this (http://www.optimist123.com/optimist/2008/03/the-fed-vs-the.html) to be very informative.

This (http://www.optimist123.com/optimist/2007/05/sound_money_ver.html), too.

Along with this (http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embassy/1154/flaherty.html).

And finally,this. Christians and Conspiracy Theories, A Call to Repentance (http://www.acts17-11.com/conspire.html).

Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: fanuvmxpx on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 15:14:45
And finally,this. Christians and Conspiracy Theories, A Call to Repentance ([url]http://www.acts17-11.com/conspire.html[/url]).

I won't address it anymore, we just disagree on economic policies. I'll listen to the economist you sent me though, because I do love hearing/analyzing the topic.

And I'm not a conspiracy theorist, fyi, I'm just not very pro-media. Hope you didn't get upset over my responses, their merely my opinion on policy. God Bless.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 15:23:46
And finally,this. Christians and Conspiracy Theories, A Call to Repentance ([url]http://www.acts17-11.com/conspire.html[/url]).

I won't address it anymore, we just disagree on economic policies. I'll listen to the economist you sent me though, because I do love hearing/analyzing the topic.

And I'm not a conspiracy theorist, fyi, I'm just not very pro-media. Hope you didn't get upset over my responses, their merely my opinion on policy. God Bless.


Ok.  It just hacks me when folks like you-know-who start spouting off loads of excrement expecting it to be gobbled up like cavier.  If you read the call to repentance, you might understand why.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Bon Voyage on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 15:27:54
And finally,this. Christians and Conspiracy Theories, A Call to Repentance ([url]http://www.acts17-11.com/conspire.html[/url]).

I won't address it anymore, we just disagree on economic policies. I'll listen to the economist you sent me though, because I do love hearing/analyzing the topic.

And I'm not a conspiracy theorist, fyi, I'm just not very pro-media. Hope you didn't get upset over my responses, their merely my opinion on policy. God Bless.


Ok.  It just hacks me when folks like you-know-who start spouting off loads of excrement expecting it to be gobbled up like cavier.  If you read the call to repentance, you might understand why.


I bet you don't want to hear how Gary Coleman is gonna rise up, and help lead one world government then do you?  It will serve you right, it will be too late for you to ask, "Whatchyou talkin' bout Willis?"
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: the innate on Sun Nov 23, 2008 - 23:37:49
People risk their lives to float on old doors across the ocean to escape communist Cuba. They don't do that because communism is just so awesome. They do that for freedom.
people risk their lives for far more ignorant reasons than to go make money in america...


like flying thousands of miles away from america for american freedoms because iraqis hate our freedoms and supposedly tore down the towers in new york...

i'm not voting for cuba, but communism is an ism like the rest of them... a charitable capitalist could be called a benevolent communist...
i would say that the kgb were pretty good capitalists...
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: johnnyQ on Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 15:10:27
Didn't one particular church that we read of in the New Testament pool their goods and resources and had "all things in common" to "share with any man as he had need"?  I am not saying that's what America should be, but I am saying that CHRISTIANITY and CAPITALISM don't seem all that compatible or "on the same page" in regards to how to handle certain society/social issues.  Obviously there are some aspects of a first century church revealed in the Bible that shows Christianity to have more in common with Communism than Capitalism.  Maybe that's a kind of bitter pill to swallow, but the sooner we swallow that our national policies will never reflect TRUE CHRISTIANITY as Jesus lived and taught, the better off we will be.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: HRoberson on Sun Feb 15, 2009 - 17:26:02
The difference is that the New Testament Christians were not taxed and then had their property given to others. The individuals gave of their property of their own accord.

Rather, it was through capitalism, or family wealth, that the Christians had the property to give.
Title: Re: RE: Communism and Christianity
Post by: profreewill on Tue Feb 17, 2009 - 09:21:12
Any political system will work (communism, socialism, democracy, empire dictatorship) as long as there are good leaders who put the people needs first.

The problem is that the leaders are not good and the people needs take a back seat to personal power and glory.

I vote republican because their agenda takes into consideration people like me.  The demon-crates have nothing to offer people like me.

I am not a minority
I am not a homosexual
I am against abortion
I believe in the freedom of religion
I believe in the right to keep and bear arms
I understand that diplomacy prevents war it doesn't win war.

The demon-crates have nothing to offer so why vote for them?


A republic would also work but people realized that they could vote themselves power.  A democracy is 51% of the people telling 49% of the people what they can do and say.  Libertarianism is the only political avenue that allows Christians to flourish.  As the republicans no longer stand on principal, they are no longer smaller government.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Wed Feb 18, 2009 - 06:42:08
The difference is that the New Testament Christians were not taxed and then had their property given to others. The individuals gave of their property of their own accord.

Rather, it was through capitalism, or family wealth, that the Christians had the property to give.

Right on, man.  The early Christians didn't do what they did, call it a good idea, then try to influence Ceasar to force the entire empire to do it at the point of a sword. 

Those who look at the early church's volunteerism and figure it justifies massive statism strike me as the ultimate example of "the ends justifies the means" mindset.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: walker starr on Sat May 09, 2009 - 14:41:59
I am completely convinced that GOD is strong enough not to need to be defended. I am quite sure thatall will acknowledge that it is us that are defended by CHRIST !! Amen
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: LittlePinky82 on Sat Jul 11, 2009 - 20:42:35
I don't know how many communist's are here on the forum but I'm one.  I came to communism from studying socialism actually and found communism just made a lot of sense to me and was closest to Christianity.  There's a lot of propaganda out there about communism as should be expected.  People can read more at http://www.cpusa.org  It's the Communist party of the U.S. website.  I'm still new to communism compared to some people out there so I'd be happy to do what I can in answering any question's.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: the J Man on Sat Jul 11, 2009 - 20:58:50
I don't know how many communist's are here on the forum but I'm one.  I came to communism from studying socialism actually and found communism just made a lot of sense to me and was closest to Christianity.  There's a lot of propaganda out there about communism as should be expected.  People can read more at [url]http://www.cpusa.org[/url]  It's the Communist party of the U.S. website.  I'm still new to communism compared to some people out there so I'd be happy to do what I can in answering any question's.


You honestly find that "control over people" makes sense and find it close to christianity? Communism has persicuted christianity for the sake of not wanting people to be liberated. Communism doesn't allow freedom of speech. The government basically owns the people when communism is abroad. If you want to take a week off to go on vacation, you need permission. How dare the government tell me that I need permission to go on vacation? They have "no" business trying to run my life.

Communism is a counterfeit to God's way of doing things. God wants us to depend on Him, to work for what we've got and achieve in life. Communism supresses your hard work as the government reaps the beenfit of that. Communism offers false hope to people that they will be taken care of, when in reality, all they get is their basic necessities tooken care of. It is "NOT" the solution to the world's problem's. Jesus is the real solution to the world's problems. He is the "ONE" you should put your trust in for provision.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: LittlePinky82 on Sat Jul 11, 2009 - 22:36:28
I don't know how many communist's are here on the forum but I'm one.  I came to communism from studying socialism actually and found communism just made a lot of sense to me and was closest to Christianity.  There's a lot of propaganda out there about communism as should be expected.  People can read more at [url]http://www.cpusa.org[/url]  It's the Communist party of the U.S. website.  I'm still new to communism compared to some people out there so I'd be happy to do what I can in answering any question's.


You honestly find that "control over people" makes sense and find it close to christianity? Communism has persicuted christianity for the sake of not wanting people to be liberated. Communism doesn't allow freedom of speech. The government basically owns the people when communism is abroad. If you want to take a week off to go on vacation, you need permission. How dare the government tell me that I need permission to go on vacation? They have "no" business trying to run my life.

Communism is a counterfeit to God's way of doing things. God wants us to depend on Him, to work for what we've got and achieve in life. Communism supresses your hard work as the government reaps the beenfit of that. Communism offers false hope to people that they will be taken care of, when in reality, all they get is their basic necessities tooken care of. It is "NOT" the solution to the world's problem's. Jesus is the real solution to the world's problems. He is the "ONE" you should put your trust in for provision.


Wow do you believe a lot of propaganda!  As a communist I can say that's okay though because before I studied communism and socialism myself and really dug into it I used to think the same things. So I'll address what you said okay?

In communism it means community.  Everyone has a say.  In the true sense of communism (which has NEVER existed by the way) people vote on issues and there are elections and city councils and whatnot.  It's easy for you to think that Christian's have been persecuted by communism because of Stalin.  He persecuted other communist's as well and killed them because they stood up to him when he wasn't doing something that had to do with communism.  Did you know that? I bet not.  I didn't either until I became more involved with communism.  The first people he killed were comrades so I'm not very fond of him.  In communism I have yet to be persecuted for my beliefs as a Christian.  Yes lots of communist's are atheist's and don't like religion at all but when people find out I'm Christian they really don't care.  We believe it's a private issue and has nothing to do with government and in a strong separation of church and state and that benefits both sides both government and religion.   Even Fidel Castro, who is one of the most well known communist's, is a Catholic.  Religion is in Cuba and Catholicism is very big and popular which is expected since they're Spanish influenced.  They have their own version of the IRS with rules to churches.

As far as controlling people that's untrue in the true sense of communism.  Sure there are dictators like Kim Jung-IL of North Korea but he isn't a communist if you look at him and at communism.  He has the label but that's pretty much it and the cult following.  There aren't unions, people can't vote, nobody can live anywhere etc.  Communism is like with any ideology and has people who are humans and we humans can become corrupt and obsessed and all those other negative attributes that comes with humanity.  It comes with free will. 

As far as Communism and Christianity read through the book of Acts.  The first Christian's mentioned there do a lot of communism such as not owning anything and sharing everything as a group.  Just one example.   

What do you mean with communism owns the people when they're abroad? That's how it is with any government on Earth.  When Americans go over seas or to another country on this side of the water's we're representing a democratic republic government.  Just be careful in some parts of Latin America cause you may be called a gringo which is a bad word there (it basically means greedy).

Uh of course the government repeats what you do.  Same thing for this government when we pay taxes.  Same thing in communism.  The government is of the people, by the people and for the people.  Sound familiar? That's a communist idea. As Christian's we're called to help the poor and those least of us, the sick, orphans, love our neighbors and take care of ourselves and the Earth.   And you know what?  Because of my religious beliefs I came to communism.  Jesus was a socialist in every sense of the word.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: the J Man on Sat Jul 11, 2009 - 23:35:14




Wow do you believe a lot of propaganda!  As a communist I can say that's okay though because before I studied communism and socialism myself and really dug into it I used to think the same things. So I'll address what you said okay?

Concerning what you've studied, they will never tell you the "real" truth about it.

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In communism it means community.  Everyone has a say.  In the true sense of communism (which has NEVER existed by the way) people vote on issues and there are elections and city councils and whatnot.

I am aware of the fact that it derives from the word "community." That is just a cosmetic delusion to get people to accept it. Make it seem harmless and innocent and actually good for the well being of humanity. You know, Satan himself can appea as an angel of light. He can disguise himself as being good. The anti-Christ(that one world government leader) will make himelf out to be for people's best interest, but in reality, is deceiving people with an ulterior motive. That's what the anti-Christ's communist one world government will consist of.

 
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It's easy for you to think that Christian's have been persecuted by communism because of Stalin.

Ever heard of a book called "Voice Of The Martyr's?" There are many stories of persicuted christians, some coming from communist nations, or nations that were communist.

  
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He persecuted other communist's as well and killed them because they stood up to him when he wasn't doing something that had to do with communism.

He had people killed because they stood their ground. That is how a communist society will operate. Persicute and even murder those who take a stand for anything right. That is pure control over people and what you just posted shows how wicked communism is. Those in power do whatever they please regardless of the agony they may cause on others.

 
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Did you know that? I bet not.

Never make an assumption of what somebody knows. You may be surprised as to what they know.

 
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I didn't either until I became more involved with communism.

If you are wise, then you'll get out of it. You are following a lie.

 
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The first people he killed were comrades so I'm not very fond of him.

And I wouldn't be fond of any other communist leader either.

 
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In communism I have yet to be persecuted for my beliefs as a Christian.

Not yet you haven't.

 
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Yes lots of communist's are atheist's and don't like religion at all but when people find out I'm Christian they really don't care.

If you start speaking Jesus to people, they will care. Many revile at the truth. Jesus even told us we'd be persicuted for His sake. A communist governmet will persicute us for His sake. That is because they despise christianity for the sake that it liberates people.

 
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We believe it's a private issue and has nothing to do with government and in a strong separation of church and state and that benefits both sides both government and religion.   Even Fidel Castro, who is one of the most well known communist's, is a Catholic.

Anyone can go to church. That doesn't mean that they serve Christ.

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Religion is in Cuba and Catholicism is very big and popular which is expected since they're Spanish influenced.  They have their own version of the IRS with rules to churches.

I will have to look into that one. But even so, what would happen if evangelical christians there were preaching the gospel??? Catholicism isn't known for that, and nonetheless, it's not the fact that there are church buildings that bother Satan and his one world government conspirators, it is bible believing christianity.

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As far as controlling people that's untrue in the true sense of communism.  Sure there are dictators like Kim Jung-IL of North Korea but he isn't a communist if you look at him and at communism.

It's a known fact that North Korea is communist. Since he is the leader of that nation, he is obviously a communist. Also, christianity is heavily persicuted there. Citizens are not even allowed to mention the Name of the Lord.

 
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He has the label but that's pretty much it and the cult following.

He wouldn't have that label if he couldn't carry the label.

 
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There aren't unions, people can't vote, nobody can live anywhere etc.  Communism is like with any ideology and has people who are humans and we humans can become corrupt and obsessed and all those other negative attributes that comes with humanity.  It comes with free will.  

Communism works very, very well with the corrupt I must say.

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As far as Communism and Christianity read through the book of Acts.  The first Christian's mentioned there do a lot of communism such as not owning anything and sharing everything as a group.  Just one example.  

That wasn't communism, that was people who truly worked together. Remember, communism is a counterfeit to that. That's why it looks so alike.

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What do you mean with communism owns the people when they're abroad? That's how it is with any government on Earth.

Yes, these government subtly practice a brand of cummunism. They have done a real job keeping it behind the woodwork.

  

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As Christian's we're called to help the poor and those least of us, the sick, orphans, love our neighbors and take care of ourselves and the Earth.   And you know what?  Because of my religious beliefs I came to communism.  Jesus was a socialist in every sense of the word.

Don't be able to expect to do so much of thatif communism takes over. They will do all they can to prohibit you so thatn "they" can be in charge.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: LittlePinky82 on Sat Jul 11, 2009 - 23:51:49
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Concerning what you've studied, they will never tell you the "real" truth about it.

LOL.  So you shouldn't study from the source?  Do you not study from the Bible for Christianity?  Just like with communism I study the Communist Manifesto.  The sorta "bible" of communism.  So should you not believe anything with Christianity then? Your whole thing with that goes a long with Christianity.   Do you not go to church and study with people there? Or should you go to other churches to learn about your specific denomination?  ::doh::

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I am aware of the fact that it derives from the word "community." That is just a cosmetic delusion to get people to accept it. Make it seem harmless and innocent and actually good for the well being of humanity. You know, Satan himself can appea as an angel of light. He can disguise himself as being good. The anti-Christ(that one world government leader) will make himelf out to be for people's best interest, but in reality, is deceiving people with an ulterior motive. That's what the anti-Christ's communist one world government will consist of.

Uh no hon. It's not some delusion.  It's what it is and what it means and has meant that since it came to be.  LOL the anti-Christ is now communist? LOL and here I thought it was President Obama.  Just joking.  But seriously Jesus was a socialist hon.  If you read through the book of Acts the first Christian's there did communism.  Have you ever read Acts and studied it?

 
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It's easy for you to think that Christian's have been persecuted by communism because of Stalin.

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Ever heard of a book called "Voice Of The Martyr's?" There are many stories of persicuted christians, some coming from communist nations, or nations that were communist.

And people can easily lie too. People claim all the time they're persecuted here when they're told to play by the same rules as everyone else.  It's called the persecution complex.  We (as a country) persecute Muslims and Jews and pagans and don't forget McCarthyism and that persecution.  


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He had people killed because they stood their ground. That is how a communist society will operate. Persicute and even murder those who take a stand for anything right. That is pure control over people and what you just posted shows how wicked communism is. Those in power do whatever they please regardless of the agony they may cause on others.

Uh hon did you forget the part that those communist's were fighting for true communism and that's why they were killed?  Please don't twist things.  



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Never make an assumption of what somebody knows. You may be surprised as to what they know.

But you've been doing that in this thread all a long with communism.  


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If you are wise, then you'll get out of it. You are following a lie.

LOL sorry to disappoint you hon but no I'm not.  As I said before the first Christian's in Acts were practicing what is called communism today.  Google Christian Communist's.  

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And I wouldn't be fond of any other communist leader either.

And I can't stand republican rightwing fascists like George W. Bush.  I do like Fidel, Raul, Che and Lenin.



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Not yet you haven't.

Only one's who have done any sort of persecuting are people like you.  In communism, guess what? We don't care.

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If you start speaking Jesus to people, they will care. Many revile at the truth. Jesus even told us we'd be persicuted for His sake. A communist governmet will persicute us for His sake. That is because they despise christianity for the sake that it liberates people.

Oh so now you're psychic.  Hmm and here I thought that was supposed to be a Satan sorta thing but you seem to have it down pat.  Hmm maybe you're of Satan?  But seriously communist's do not care.  I've had plenty of theological religious discussions with my communist friends and a lot of them like Jesus even if they don't believe in him they like the idea and story.  LOL oh yes that's so true that in fact Fidel Castro early last year went to an opening of a Catholic Church in Cuba. OMG! LOL.  You're too much.


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Anyone can go to church. That doesn't mean that they serve Christ.

Wow aren't you holier than thou? How would you like it if I said you didn't serve Christ?  I don't think you would like it very much would you?


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I will have to look into that one. But even so, what would happen if evangelical christians there were preaching the gospel??? Catholicism isn't known for that, and nonetheless, it's not the fact that there are church buildings that bother Satan and his one world government conspirators, it is bible believing christianity.

They can do that.  They just have to be registered.  I used to know someone who went to Cuba and did some mission work and they were trying to get a church set up.  She said a well known member of the Communist party in Cuba was very supportive of their work and helping them out with the authorities.  This is Church of Christ too.  Psst hon communism is everything opposite of Satan. If you're wanting to find Satan's one world government look to capitalism.

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It's a known fact that North Korea is communist. Since he is the leader of that nation, he is obviously a communist. Also, christianity is heavily persicuted there. Citizens are not even allowed to mention the Name of the Lord.

No he is not.  You're not a communist nor know a thing about communism so you can't say.  Such nonsense.  Go to the Communist party website I mentioned (cpusa.org) and read everything there.  Nothing there is anywhere in North Korea.  You're lying and lying is a sin.  



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He wouldn't have that label if he couldn't carry the label.

Gee hon weren't you just saying above that people call themselves things all the time but are lying when talking about Castro and being a Christian? So which is it? If Kim Jong-Il is carrying the label of a communist and that makes him one then Fidel Castro is a Catholic Christian. You can't have it both ways.



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Communism works very, very well with the corrupt I must say.

Oh please.  Look at what capitalism has done in the last 8 years.  Invaded and occupied TWO countries, torture, persecuting people cause of faith (Muslims), making more people poor etc.  Get real.


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That wasn't communism, that was people who truly worked together. Remember, communism is a counterfeit to that. That's why it looks so alike.

Psst that's what communism is.   ::doh::


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Yes, these government subtly practice a brand of cummunism. They have done a real job keeping it behind the woodwork.

LOL no they don't.  Only Cuba is pretty close but they still have a lot of work to do.   ::frustrated::

 
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Don't be able to expect to do so much of thatif communism takes over. They will do all they can to prohibit you so thatn "they" can be in charge.

LOL sorry you've seen too many red scare movies.  Were you around during McCarthyism?  ::noworries::
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: the J Man on Sun Jul 12, 2009 - 02:01:20


   Do you not go to church and study with people there? Or should you go to other churches to learn about your specific denomination?  ::doh::

I don't follow denominations, I follow Jesus. He is the way, the truth and the life(John14:6). If you follow His way, you don't adhere to the counterfeit called "communism."


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Uh no hon. It's not some delusion.

It's a delusion that has deceived numerous people throughout the ages.

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 LOL the anti-Christ is now communist?

That's how he will operate his one world goverment.

  
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If you read through the book of Acts the first Christian's there did communism.  Have you ever read Acts and studied it?

Your wrong about that! What they did was work together and help each other. But on a political spectrum, it's not going to work that way. What the world leaders are trying to implement is "control over the people."



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And people can easily lie too. People claim all the time they're persecuted here when they're told to play by the same rules as everyone else.  It's called the persecution complex.

If you say that people being persicuted in the Name of Jesus under communist rule, is a lie, that you must have hidden agenda your trying to promote right in this forum. "Nobody" can honestly say that it's a lie that these people were persicuted in the Name of Jesus.

 
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We (as a country) persecute Muslims and Jews and pagans and don't forget McCarthyism and that persecution.  

That's hogwash! People don't persicute pagans, pagans are well respected. The occult nowadays is very popular. I don't see too many persicuting jews or muslims either.



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Uh hon did you forget the part that those communist's were fighting for true communism and that's why they were killed?  Please don't twist things.  

You've got your facts backwards when it comes to twisting things.


  

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LOL sorry to disappoint you hon but no I'm not.  As I said before the first Christian's in Acts were practicing what is called communism today.  Google Christian Communist's.  

Oh, your not disappointing me. You can do whatever you like with your life. I believe in freedom and liberty. I just simply told you the truth that your following a lie.


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And I can't stand republican rightwing fascists like George W. Bush.  I do like Fidel, Raul, Che and Lenin.

They all come from the same barrel of apples. Yeah, there is a left and a right, but they both support the same political power structure that is really controlling things.



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Only one's who have done any sort of persecuting are people like you.  In communism, guess what? We don't care.

More twisted facts on your behalf. Telling the truth according to your left wing agenda is persicuting you??? What a rack of bologne that is. Jesus told people the truth, so did the apostles. Left wingers whine and cry when they don't get their way. They are so good at twisting things around.

I don't stand for either right or left, I stand right down the centre where God wants me. Both the left and right are frints to stir up chaos and confusion.


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Oh so now you're psychic.  Hmm and here I thought that was supposed to be a Satan sorta thing but you seem to have it down pat.  Hmm maybe you're of Satan?

I am a man of God who does the will of the Lord Jesus Christ, the very thing that Satan and his kingdom hate. Where do you get off accusing me of being a psychic??? That is just an accusation to make me look bad in hopes that others wouldn't listen to anything I am posting. Accusing me of being of Satan? I am not the one supporting the devil's lie called "communism." You have twisted scripture around to convince people that christianity and communism go hand in hand.

 
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But seriously communist's do not care.

Sure they do. They don't want the truth to come out. They want people to be oblivious to what is truly going on in the world. That is why one will come in this forum and stir up tension against someone speaking the truth about the wickedness in communism.

 
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I've had plenty of theological religious discussions with my communist friends and a lot of them like Jesus even if they don't believe in him they like the idea and story.

Oh, please, Jesus Himself spoke about how the world hated Jesus and would hate His followers too(John15:18-21). Also, 2nd timothy3:12 says that those who live godly will suffer persecution. No way around it. It's right in the Word of God that saints of God will be persecuted.

 
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LOL oh yes that's so true that in fact Fidel Castro early last year went to an opening of a Catholic Church in Cuba. OMG! LOL.  

That don't mean he supports christianity. Unless the Spirit of the Lord is present in church, it's just some religious gathering. It is not going to church that feeds the soul, it is the Word of God. Jesus mentioned how He is the bread of life(John6:35).  Communism would "NEVER" alow that! Communist leaders don't mind people going to some church building, they have a problem with true, genuine christianity. Satan himself can accept watered down lukewarm christianity. That brand of christianity doesn't get people saved, doesn't heal, deliver, set free, bring life and hope to anyone.



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Wow aren't you holier than thou?

Another of your twisted pervsions. Your really good at that.

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How would you like it if I said you didn't serve Christ?  I don't think you would like it very much would you?

Your opinion of me doesn't matter. The truth is, going to church doesn't make you a christian. If you call me holier-than-thou because of that, then it's obvious what your real motives are. It's obvious that your opposing the truth in the guise of a christian, when your really trying to promote a communist agenda.



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No he is not.  You're not a communist nor know a thing about communism so you can't say.

I know very well how Satan's kingdom operates. You know that I know. That's why Satan along with his cohorts hate me being on here. because I know what they do.

  
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Go to the Communist party website I mentioned (cpusa.org) and read everything there.  Nothing there is anywhere in North Korea.  You're lying and lying is a sin.  

You know that I am standing for the truth, yet you accuse me of lying? Oh boy, talk about deception being implemented in this forum.




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Oh please.  Look at what capitalism has done in the last 8 years.  Invaded and occupied TWO countries, torture, persecuting people cause of faith (Muslims), making more people poor etc.  Get real.

you mean people with a subtle communist agenda who are using all this as a ploy to start a third world war. It will take a third world war to bring in a one world government.





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LOL sorry you've seen too many red scare movies.  Were you around during McCarthyism?  ::noworries::

I don't watch too many movies actually, it goes to show that you can do nothing but accuse me.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Sanktspirit on Sun Jul 12, 2009 - 04:35:53
Communism is a complete fraud. It was devised purely to destabilize the West and destroy Christianity and is the antithesis to Jesus teachings. Its not a viable political or economic system that was designed to work and its creators knew this and its followers still do. Anyone who has embraced this fraud is a criminal and usually an authoritarian fanatic who will murder those who oppose them. Its also very possible that the Communist Manifesto is the False Prophet described in Revelation and its followers are the AntiChrist. Observe;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN0By0xbst8
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32cxf_yuri-bezmenov
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[url]http://www.savethemales.ca/000275.html[/url]

Rothschilds Conduct "Red Symphony"

([url]http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/2413/rakovsky.jpg[/url])
Incredible and bizarre as it sounds, humanity is indeed the victim of a diabolical conspiracy.

War, depression and genocide in the past century were not accidental or inevitable but the result of malevolent design.

Shocking evidence is a 1938 Stalinist police (NKVD) interrogation of a founder of the Communist International, Christian G. Rakovsky, 65, who was facing execution for plotting to overthrow Stalin.

The 50-page transcript of his interrogation, dubbed "The Red Symphony," was not meant to become public. It confirms that the Rothschild-Illuminati planned to use Communism to establish a world dictatorship of the super rich.

This is perhaps the most explosive political document in modern history. It reveals why the Illuminati created Hitler and then sought to destroy him, and why Stalin made a pact with Hitler in 1939.

Christian Rakovsky was a veteran Communist insider. Born Chaim Rakeover in 1873, he studied medicine in France before becoming a revolutionary. He was the leader of a terror group that attacked government officials.

In 1919, Lenin put him in charge of the Soviet Ukraine government. He successfully kept the area for the Bolsheviks during the Civil War. Stalin appointed him Russian ambassador to Paris in 1925.

Rakovsky belonged to the powerful Trotskyite faction that took their orders from the Rothschilds. Many of this group were shot in Stalin's 1937 Communist Party purge.


MIDNIGHT INTERROGATION

The circumstances of the midnight interrogation Jan. 26, 1938 were very dramatic.

What could Rakovsky possibly say to save his life?

Rakovsky appears to use the tactic of "deceiving with the truth." He wins trust by revealing the truth but leaves some of it out. He tries to impress his interrogator that he and Trotsky represent an invincible power he calls the "Capitalist-Communist Financial International."

He confirms that the "revolutionary movement" was designed to enlist support by pretending to serve mankind's moral and collective ideals. The real aim however is to give total world power to the bankers by dividing society and undermining established authority.

"Revolution" really means, "overturning" Western civilization.

"Christianity is our only real enemy since all the political and economic phenomena of the bourgeois states are only its consequences," Rakovsky, says. (Griffin, p. 264)

Peace is "counter-revolutionary" since it is war that paves the way for revolution.

Rakovsky, whose tongue was loosened by a mild inebriant in his wine, refers to the Illuminati as "they" or "them." He is a member although not part of the inner circle.

He explains that the "Illuminati" is a Masonic secret society dedicated to Communism. Significantly, its founder Adam Weishaupt took the name from "the second anti-Christian conspiracy of that era, gnosticism." (249)

Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: BAH-BLAH on Fri Jul 31, 2009 - 08:35:04
As I said before the first Christian's in Acts were practicing what is called communism today.  Google Christian Communist's. 

No, they were not. No one was FORCED to give by a 3rd party. Gosh the difference is so plain, but that plainness wont penetrate the true believer in this junk
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Fri Jul 31, 2009 - 09:49:18
As I said before the first Christian's in Acts were practicing what is called communism today.  Google Christian Communist's. 

No, they were not. No one was FORCED to give by a 3rd party. Gosh the difference is so plain, but that plainness wont penetrate the true believer in this junk

I'm hip.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Joker2 on Sat Sep 05, 2009 - 20:12:59
If you read through the book of Acts the first Christian's there did communism.  Have you ever read Acts and studied it?  (end quote)
 

Acts 4


 32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.

This is not communism.     Most of us call this "sharing". 
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: admin on Wed Sep 09, 2009 - 11:07:49
If you read through the book of Acts the first Christian's there did communism.  Have you ever read Acts and studied it?  (end quote)
 

Acts 4


 32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.

This is not communism.     Most of us call this "sharing".  

Joker, there is a MASSIVE difference in communism and what the early church did in the book of Acts. They voluntarily gave up certain things. Some people gave up everything, some people gave some. It was CHOICE. Communism is a government system that forces people to give up what they have and the government is certainly not going to have the same priorities as the early church or God....though a communist government seeks to become God so that there's not any independent thought or questioning of what they're doing.

The early American pilgrims tried communism for a winter and nearly starved (actually, about half died of starvation or disease due to malnutrition). It was because people learned that they could not work and yet still eat and so more and more people decided they didn't want to work. Finally the first governor of the colony instituted a total free market. He gave everyone a plot of land and told them that whatever they got to grow on that land or whatever animal they killed they could do with it whatever they wanted (keep it, sell it, give it away, whatever they wanted). It was a GREAT success and the overfill was shared with the Indians. It was partially from that failed experiment with communism that the American free market was born.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Northboy on Sun Sep 27, 2009 - 18:34:57
Quite a discussion.

To my mind early Christians did not follow "Communist" principles, but that of a commonwealth. Ancient Israel did the same. Communism seeks to centralize control, while commonwealths tend to decentralize control, providing empowerment to its citizens. Commonwealths are governed by the rights of the people, such as outlined in the ancient documents of the Magna Carta and the Charter of Forests. To the average person the Charter of Forests is most important as it lays down the right of an individual to pursue rightful livelihood.

Capitalism is an economic development tool, primarily used to develop colonies "in the day" and I'm not sure you can describe it as an ideology. Sure it works, but at what cost?


As no one has brought this into the discussion, but I would like to draw your attention to


Deuteronomy 15-7 and 8

"When one of your fellow-countrymen in any of your settlements in the

land which the Lord God is giving you becomes poor, do not be
hard hearted or close fisted with your countryman in his need."
Be open handed towards him and lend him on pledge as much as he needs.

Any country which wishes to live under God's providence is required to live by the Father's laws. How we go about managing our economy or our affairs is pretty much left up to us, but this is the specification.

I suggest a deeper look into commonwealth, after all, some states still are commonwealths aren't they?
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: TradCath on Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 22:08:27
Hello
THough I might try to add some facts to this thread. They seem to be in short supply




Aleksandr Solzhenitsyns who spent 10 years in The Gulag in Communist Russia wrote the Pulitizer and Nobel Prize winning 'The Gulag Archipelago, and used the research of the official Soviet Statistician who had access to secret government files,

 I. A. Kurganov, estimated that between 1918 and 1959, at least 66 million died at the hands of the Communist rulers of Russia.'


These were 66 Million Christians.  
I have lots of Info on this topic and can be as graphic as you like..


"The Bolshevik Revolution in Russia was the Work of Jewish Brains, Jewish Dissatisfaction and Jewish Planning, whose goal is to create a New Order in the world.
What was performed in so excellent a way in Russia, thanks to Jewish Brains and Jewish planning, shall also, through the same mental and Physical forces, Become a reality all over the world."
-American Hebrew, September 8, 1920


"Some call it Marxism — I call it Judaism." (The American Bulletin, Rabbi S. Wise, May 5, 1935).


"The Communist Movement and ideology played an important part In Jewish life, particularly in the  1920s, 1930s and during and after World War II  
Jews became the leading element in the legal and illegal Communist Parties..
Jews were instructed to change their names so as "not confirm right-wing propaganda that presented Communism as an alien, Jewish conspiracy."
-Front cover Volume 5, 1971  Encyclopedia Judaica, published Jerusalem, Israel
Under the entry for "Communism":Vol. 5, page 792


 The flip side to Communism is not the market based economy based on sound money, but on Capitalism.


 "Capitalism was born from the money loan. Money lending contains the root idea of capitalism. Turn to the pages of the TALMUD and you will find that the Jews made an art of lending money. They were taught early to look for their chief happiness in the possession of money. They fathomed all the secrets that lay hid in money. They became Lords of Money and Lords of the World.'
SOMBART, WERNER. 20th century German economist




And Please spare me the nonsense about invading 2 nations
We invaded them for Israel and an oil pipeline to Haifa Israel as reported by the Israeli Haaretz and Jerusalem Post.


Chief Rabbi Metzger thanks Bush for intervening in Iraq
M. Wagner-Jerusalem Post 1/9/2008

During a short verbal exchange Wednesday at the Ben Gurion Airport Terminal, Chief Ashkenazi Rabbi Yona Metzger thanked George Bush for the US military intervention in Iraq.
"I want to thank you for your support of Israel & in particular for Waging a War against Iraq," Metzger told Bush, according to the spokesman
Bush answered that the words "warmed his heart"




"Of course the Iraq war is about oil"
"We've treated the Arab world as a collection of big gas stations,
Our message to them is: Guys, keep your pumps open, prices low, be nice to the Israelis and you can do whatever you want out back. Osama and 9/11 is the distilled essence that represents everything going on out back."
-General John Abizaid (Ret.), the former CENTCOM Commander
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 22:26:09
If I write it, it's a fact.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Logismos on Sat Oct 17, 2009 - 15:11:16
I agree with those arguing that the the Bible favors collective ownership and brotherly equality. Not necessarily 19th century Marxism, but definitely little could be found in Scripture to support blanket Christian support for capitalist theory which teaches that if everyone is selfish it will be good for society.

I disagree with those who are arguing that Communism automatically relates to authoritarian, totalitarian dictatorships like Stalin or the Chinese Cultural Revolution. No truly communist country has ever existed and its only ever been attempted by pre-industrial developing nations as a means for authoritarian single-party dictatorships to force industrialization.  None of that is part of Marxist theory.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Sat Oct 17, 2009 - 16:28:47
If you and some fellow Christians near you decide to throw in together and pool your resources, that's your business. 
Title: Re: RE: Communism and Christianity
Post by: profreewill on Thu Oct 22, 2009 - 15:01:04
Unless something has changed communism is not the enemy and health care isn't the problem, Satan is.

If communism is so evil and such a harsh thing for Christians to allow why is the church growing in a communist country?

Yes, Israel wanted to be governed by man, doesn't seem to me to be any different then the church wanting to be governed by Republicans.

The other myth I see perpetuated on this thread is the idea that Republicans are for smaller government. It would seem they love to spend just as much, they just prefer to cut taxes and spend.

In the end it would seem to me that the only difference between either party is who gets the money when they are in power. 


Could you offer some proof that church is growing in Communist countries.  Be specific.

PS As you insinuated, republicans are just theirs in different clothing.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: doggieseatdoggies on Sun Nov 22, 2009 - 16:25:18
I wonder about socialism in the Bible when I read Acts 2:42-47.

Here's my take: Communism crumbled because Marx's "Religion is the Opiate of the People."
Capitalism is crumbling because greed is not a God thing.  We've taken a world of plenty and made it a place of enormous disparity of wealth, even among those who work hard every day. The Bible makes it clear that an honest day's work should be rewarded accordingly.  Capitalism for its part in this world has brushed God out of it.  A system is only as good as it allows God to exist within.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Northboy on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 08:55:54
I wonder about socialism in the Bible when I read Acts 2:42-47.

Here's my take: Communism crumbled because Marx's "Religion is the Opiate of the People."
Capitalism is crumbling because greed is not a God thing.  We've taken a world of plenty and made it a place of enormous disparity of wealth, even among those who work hard every day. The Bible makes it clear that an honest day's work should be rewarded accordingly.  Capitalism for its part in this world has brushed God out of it.  A system is only as good as it allows God to exist within.


Bingo!!~!!!

Socialism or any other of the "isms" have an element of central control, central authority. Ultimately as many have pointed out, leads to some sort of system failure.

Commonwealth on the other hand does not include centralized control.

Its the difference between command and control and dialogue.

This is a scriptoral specification as you are discerning.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Wed Nov 25, 2009 - 20:35:37
Capitalism is crumbling because greed is not a God thing.  We've taken a world of plenty and made it a place of enormous disparity of wealth, even among those who work hard every day. The Bible makes it clear that an honest day's work should be rewarded accordingly.  Capitalism for its part in this world has brushed God out of it.  A system is only as good as it allows God to exist within.

The free market is the only moral economic system.  All others are based upon force and coercion.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Logismos on Thu Nov 26, 2009 - 01:09:59
An unregulated free market leads to its own forms of coercion and exploitation. It is not inherently more or less moral than any other economic system.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Thu Nov 26, 2009 - 09:43:32
Since governments, when instituted, must not violate individual rights, I oppose all interference by government in the areas of voluntary and contractual relations among individuals. People should not be forced to sacrifice their lives and property for the benefit of others. They should be left free by government to deal with one another as free traders; and the resultant economic system, the only one compatible with the protection of individual rights, is the free market.

Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Logismos on Sat Nov 28, 2009 - 00:57:49
Oh what a tidy set of absolutes just waiting to be spoiled by even the slightest wiff of reality.

I oppose all interference by government in the areas of voluntary and contractual relations among individuals.

Are there any goods or services that I should not be legally able to purchase?

Quote
People should not be forced to sacrifice their lives and property for the benefit of others.


So hypothetically a man could morally withhold food from his children until they starve to death? After all, it is his property and he cannot be forced to give it to someone else. Speaking of homicidal fathers, suppose a man  murders all of his children with a hammer as they sleep--would it benefit others in the community for such a man to be executed by the government? Keep in mind that if you allow for even one exception to your seemingly absolute principle then it opens the possibility that there might be other reasonable exceptions.

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They should be left free by government to deal with one another as free traders

What happens if the repeated tendency is for one group of free traders to continually exploit another group of free traders to the point that the second group is eventually no longer free?

Quote
the only one compatible with the protection of individual rights, is the free market.

Many tens of millions of people over many hundreds of years have been enslaved to various degrees as a direct consequence of completely free trade. Likewise millions of others have been enslaved by overly coercive political systems. To claim that one kind of economic system champions individual rights is historically naive.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: TonkaTim on Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 15:05:21
Communism, Socialism, Fascism whatever "ism" you prefer to call it is a serious threat. It permeates throughout our society. As of the early 20th century it became part of our laws. It was designed to destroy the Free Enterprise System aka the American System and more importantly to destroy the belief in the One True God, our Lord, our Savior, Jesus. The "isms" teaches one to take your eyes off the Kingship of Christ and to hand that crown to men. The "isms" are the politics of the religion secular humanism which teaches the first lie "you can be as gods".

As I said we have communist laws on the books now, two of the great communist laws have been on the books since 1913. They come directly from Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto. They are the state monoply of credit and the progessive income tax known as the Federal Reserve banking System & the Internal Revenue code.

The Income Tax specifically steals the first fruits which belong to God and places a yoke of servitude on you.

When it comes to money God requires "honest weights & measures" & no "usury". The Federal Reserve System undoes both. It gives fiat paper money backed only by "faith". It also imposes debt slavery upon our nation, our children & our children's children. Every dollar is borrowed is debt and every dollar is dimishing under the usury (compounding interest).

When our money was an honest weight & measure, gold & silver as perscribed by law, the value of money (purchasing power) increased by 42%, a bountiful blessing. When the communist (ungodly) money system was imposed on us in 1913 our money has decreased in value by 96%. Since then we have suffered financial bubbles, recessions, depressions, chaos. God's ways are stability & peace. Man's way are instability & strife.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Logismos on Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 16:06:13
Fascism and communism are direct opposites by the way. Fascism supports power of the business elites, reinforces traditional values, and is ultra nationalistic to the extent that it is the only thing that matters. Communism de-emphasizes the state in preference of class consciousness, it rejects traditional values for tradition's sake, and it attempts to eliminate the power of the ruling business elite and all other social inequalities.

As far as the actual main point of your post about taxes and usury I have no comment. I'd say we have far more than just two socialist laws in the united states. I'm not in favor of a fully socialist system but in each case you have to weigh the pros and cons and the end result is a mixed economy with a bit of both.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: TonkaTim on Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 16:41:28
Fascism and communism are direct opposites by the way. Fascism supports power of the business elites, reinforces traditional values, and is ultra nationalistic to the extent that it is the only thing that matters. Communism de-emphasizes the state in preference of class consciousness, it rejects traditional values for tradition's sake, and it attempts to eliminate the power of the ruling business elite and all other social inequalities.

As far as the actual main point of your post about taxes and usury I have no comment. I'd say we have far more than just two socialist laws in the united states. I'm not in favor of a fully socialist system but in each case you have to weigh the pros and cons and the end result is a mixed economy with a bit of both.

I understand the propaganda difference between the these "isms", but when one looks at the actual economic & legal basis the "isms" themselves and strip away the "so-called ideology"(propaganda) it all leads to statism or better said the authority of man usurping the authority of God.

Marx's propaganda describes your definition of Communism but his economics and transfer of control to state defy his own propaganda. When looked at objectively they only difference between the fascist & the communist is who actually controls the state monopolies the "intellectuals" or the "corportists"
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Logismos on Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 18:41:51
...but his economics and transfer of control to state defy his own propaganda.


That is incorrect because according to Marx when humanity achieves communism it would be a completely stateless and classless society (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_communism).
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: TonkaTim on Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 21:15:51
...but his economics and transfer of control to state defy his own propaganda.


That is incorrect because according to Marx when humanity achieves communism it would be a completely stateless and classless society ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_communism[/url]).


http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

The above are the points made by Marx in the transition to communism, who collects the property rent, income tax, controls the credit banks, the factories, the agriculture, the schools, etc? THE State, so much for classless stateless society. Once an authoritarian state is imposed it will never relenquish power. The end result is a two class society, the ruling elite with a working class populous.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Logismos on Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 23:12:42
In chapter two, prior to that list, Marx defines the state as "the proletariat organised as the ruling class"

Then next, still prior to that list, he describes what the early stages of socialism might be like as it transitions: "Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads..." Then he lists off those things you enumerated.

Marx taught that humanity would evolve through various stages through history such as primitive (tribal) communism, slave society, feudalism, capitalism, socialism and then communism and that each society must pass through each phase. Socialism therefore would be the transition period between capitalism and the gradual conversion to actual communism. But in the meantime, the socialism phase would still be rooted in the power structures of the old bourgeois society. That is what this list is describing. But the ultimate goal at the end of transition is a stateless and classless society that operates on local grassroots democratic decision-making and collective ownership of the means of production--without nations or states. However I'm not sure he ever made a list of how to get past despotic socialism...lol

The communist manifesto is mainly concerned with overthrow of the capitalist system rather than with laying out the theories of the end result of communism. But you have to think about it in this context to understand the use of the word state in those lines.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Mon Nov 30, 2009 - 09:28:45
Oh what a tidy set of absolutes just waiting to be spoiled by even the slightest wiff of reality.


Some rather cute responses you had, but, yes, the free market is the only economic sytem that is compatible with liberty since all others are based upon the coercive use of force.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Logismos on Thu Dec 03, 2009 - 11:00:58
the free market is the only economic sytem that is compatible with liberty since all others are based upon the coercive use of force.

A free market is economically more productive and efficient, but it is not any more or less compatible with liberty because by design it inherently promotes the exploitation and enslavement of others.

Communism is based on coercion in EXACTLY the same sense that democracy is based on coercion. If you argue the coercion issue then you must also reject democracy.

Quote
Some rather cute responses you had

AKA you're conceding by avoiding these relevant issues you can't respond to.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Fri Dec 04, 2009 - 09:24:15
the free market is the only economic sytem that is compatible with liberty since all others are based upon the coercive use of force.

A free market is economically more productive and efficient, but it is not any more or less compatible with liberty because by design it inherently promotes the exploitation and enslavement of others.

Communism is based on coercion in EXACTLY the same sense that democracy is based on coercion. If you argue the coercion issue then you must also reject democracy.

Yes.  My human rights, among them being a free trader, are not subject to popular vote.

Quote
Some rather cute responses you had

Quote
AKA you're conceding by avoiding these relevant issues you can't respond to.

AKA recognizing asinine comments when I read them.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Logismos on Fri Dec 04, 2009 - 10:27:54
My human rights, among them being a free trader, are not subject to popular vote.

You must live by yourself on the moon then because if you live on earth in any society with a government that has ever existed in all of human history, then your freedom to freely trade is coersively being controlled every day.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Fri Dec 04, 2009 - 11:40:29
My daughter is home after spending the semester at school in Vienna, Austria.  I will deal with your detachment from reality later on.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Logismos on Fri Dec 04, 2009 - 16:47:12
Do you agree with the premise that the use of free trade and profit motive is not moral in circumstances where it takes away the freedom of others?
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: doggieseatdoggies on Sat Dec 05, 2009 - 13:31:21
Communism and Marxism cited that religion is the opiate of the people and frowned on its existence.

Capitalism has unchecked greed, not a Godly concept.

More and more, I am coming to appreciate the Amish community's approach to life.  It frowns upon multinational corporations and "megabusiness." 

Pure and good capitalism in its foundational element was good.

So was the church in Acts 4.

But give time, and the enemy, the room to operate and eventually, things corrupt.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Logismos on Sun Dec 06, 2009 - 01:35:20
Pure and good capitalism in its foundational element was good.

What exactly is "pure and good capitalism"?
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Tue Dec 08, 2009 - 08:24:18
Do you agree with the premise that the use of free trade and profit motive is not moral in circumstances where it takes away the freedom of others?

If it ever did that, sure.  But what you are asking is similar to asking if beef would still be beef if you took out all the meat.  Since all other economic systems beside the free market are based upon taking away the freedom of others, though, you are actually making an argument for the free market, which is a requirement for people to live in liberty.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Logismos on Tue Dec 08, 2009 - 16:05:59
What is one example from history of a real society that exemplifies your definition (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/politics/communism-vs-christianity/msg721657/#msg721657) of a free market, but did not do so at the expense of other people's freedom?
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Tue Dec 08, 2009 - 20:22:47
Off the top of my head I can't think of any society where the lack of liberty for others, except for criminals, was a requirement to have liberty.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Logismos on Wed Dec 09, 2009 - 08:21:39
Virtually every society in the history of the world and in every corner of the globe from the time of the first Neolithic farming villages to the present day has a class of people whose greater freedom is maintained by directly or indirectly subjugating lesser peoples.

I have the freedom to do all sorts of things that others in my own city or in other countries could never hope to do because of the relative wealth and position I have in society at their expense--and I'm just a regular lower middle class dude by American standards.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Wed Dec 09, 2009 - 10:16:48
My liberty is enhanced by the liberty of others, not by the restriction of it. 
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Logismos on Wed Dec 09, 2009 - 14:24:59
I agree that from a moral perspective, when someone else is free it benefits me, but that isn't what actually happens all the time in the real material world. Its the principle that we aspire to moreso than the economic reality that we see every day. Everything in the material world is impacted by scarcity and scarcity often produces zero-sum situations whereby one group has more opportunities if someone else has fewer thereby causing the first group to have more choices to freely choose from and the second group less (aka more or less freedom). Also, when "liberty" means complete trade freedom it can produce what economists call externalities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality), which can inhibit the freedom of others or cause them to incur economic and social costs to the benefit of those freely exchanging. An externality is perhaps the most basic form of market failure.

For example, your freedom to go and make a profit from making widgets without regulation can cause the person living next to your widget factory to incur costs even though they are not a part of the market of people buying and selling widgets. Perhaps the widget juice from the production process is getting in the ground water and causing them to become ill. That persons freedom is being restricted by you exercising your freedom. This is just one very rudimentary illustration of a concept that goes far beyond pollution and its not the only concept related to the issue of one person's freedom limiting anothers.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Wed Dec 09, 2009 - 14:56:59
Oh, you're new to the concept that your freedom to swing your fist ends where my nose begins?  As for the rest, well, duh.  My right to own property and do with it what I want doesn't mean I get to go over to my next door neighbor's house and drop a deuce on his front porch.  Besides all of that, you are far more likely to find such externalities as you describe in countries where private property rights are not respected.  If you think what you wrote is some sort of indictment against free trade, you've failed.  Try again.

Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Logismos on Wed Dec 09, 2009 - 15:49:23
In the rather simplistic case of pollution, things like oceans, rivers, the atmosphere, and ground water are not  private property. What then?

Quote
Besides all of that, you are far more likely to find such externalities as you describe in countries where private property rights are not respected.

You're also likely to find them in societies where public welfare is not respected.

As far as an "indictment against free trade" my opinion is that there should be a well regulated market system in which both entrepreneurship and profit is encouraged as well as social responsibility. Neither pure free trade nor a pure social focus is beneficial. This mix of the two extremes is the way it works in all modern economies. What I have refuted is your notion that free trade is inherently moral but so far you've avoided examples and arguments to the contrary, and failed to name even one society in the entire history of the world that has had the type of free trade you've described nor any society in all of history that has not  used its freedom to take away the freedom of others.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Wed Dec 09, 2009 - 21:39:00
In the rather simplistic case of pollution, things like oceans, rivers, the atmosphere, and ground water are not  private property. What then?


Since you don't own the river you can't go throw your trash in it.

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Besides all of that, you are far more likely to find such externalities as you describe in countries where private property rights are not respected.


You're also likely to find them in societies where public welfare is not respected.


"Public welfare" is an awfully broad term.  What do you mean, exactly?

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As far as an "indictment against free trade" my opinion is that there should be a well regulated market system in which both entrepreneurship and profit is encouraged as well as social responsibility. Neither pure free trade nor a pure social focus is beneficial. This mix of the two extremes is the way it works in all modern economies.


What do you mean by "social responsibility"?

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What I have refuted is your notion that free trade is inherently moral but so far you've avoided examples and arguments to the contrary,


I didn't avoid them, I ignored them because they looked rather silly.  I will go back and respond anyway since you insist.

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and failed to name even one society in the entire history of the world that has had the type of free trade you've described nor any society in all of history that has not  used its freedom to take away the freedom of others.


So?  I don't believe in murder but I can't find a society in the entire history of the world where it never happened, either.  That's no reason to give up on being against murder.  Perfect liberty is aspirational.

As for countries that have not used their freedom to take away the freedom of others, well, it's always seemed to me, based upon a reading of world history, that personal liberty has not been the norm but an aberation.  One can look at the Index of Economic Freedom (http://www.heritage.org/Index/Ranking.aspx), and draw their own conclusions about how warlike the freer countries are.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Wed Dec 09, 2009 - 22:03:11

Are there any goods or services that I should not be legally able to purchase?

Prohibition worked wonders, didn't it?  How about the drug laws?  It's also good to no that their isn't a prostitute to be found except in parts of Nevada, isn't it?

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People should not be forced to sacrifice their lives and property for the benefit of others.


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So hypothetically a man could morally withhold food from his children until they starve to death? After all, it is his property and he cannot be forced to give it to someone else.

He'd be busting the deal he made with his child when he took it home.

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Speaking of homicidal fathers, suppose a man  murders all of his children with a hammer as they sleep--would it benefit others in the community for such a man to be executed by the government? Keep in mind that if you allow for even one exception to your seemingly absolute principle then it opens the possibility that there might be other reasonable exceptions.

He should be punished for violating another's right to life.  The death penalty is a separate debate. 

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What happens if the repeated tendency is for one group of free traders to continually exploit another group of free traders to the point that the second group is eventually no longer free?

I don't get what you are getting at, here.  When I go to the grocery store and buy a gallon of milk, the deal won't happen if either one of us believes we are being exploited.

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Many tens of millions of people over many hundreds of years have been enslaved to various degrees as a direct consequence of completely free trade.

Really?  Please explain why you feel this way.

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To claim that one kind of economic system champions individual rights is historically naive.

Actually, it is acknowledging reality.  If you feel differently, we can make arrangements to where you can't buy or sell anything from or to anyone without my prior consent.  Instead of it being like a prying government in the bedroom, it will be in your wallet.

You see, when you go into the market to exchange good or services with others, I can't think of anyone more qualified to determine what you will or will not do than logismos.  Therefore, I'm a free trader.  To be anything else would be immoral.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Logismos on Wed Dec 09, 2009 - 22:41:32
Since you don't own the river you can't go throw your trash in it.

1. Who keeps them from doing that?

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"Public welfare" is an awfully broad term.  What do you mean, exactly?...What do you mean by "social responsibility"?


2. Being responsible for seeking the good of not only ones self but also of one's community and society as a whole.

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I don't believe in murder but I can't find a society in the entire history of the world where it never happened, either.


3. That is not a relevant analogy. You're proposing an economic theory as being good and I'm asking for an example of the theory in action. If you were proposing the prohibition of an action like murder then an analogous scenario would be me asking for an example of murder actually being prohibited, which would be easy. If you were proposing a theory that the only good society is one where murder absolutely never occurs--ever. Well, that would be a pointless theory for obvious reasons.

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That's no reason to give up on being against murder.  Perfect liberty is aspirational.


4. So you've defined a concept as being the ONLY moral economic system but its never actually been done (and when its been tried it has been catastrophically evil for many millions of people) and since the morally good version of the system is "aspirational" it is presumably impossible to achieve? Hmm...apparently "pure free market" and "pure communism" have more in common than I thought.

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As for countries that have not used their freedom to take away the freedom of others, well, it's always seemed to me, based upon a reading of world history, that personal liberty has not been the norm but an aberation.  One can look at the Index of Economic Freedom ([url]http://www.heritage.org/Index/Ranking.aspx[/url]), and draw their own conclusions about how warlike the freer countries are.


5. I agree that personal liberty has been much more limited for the vast majority of people throughout human history. But every society--in ancient times and today--does have a class of people who have more freedom and opportunity than others. Something like an "owner" class. In fact the Heritage ranking you've posted is a great example of this. Almost every measurement they use to evaluate the level of freedom in a society is from the perspective of the present-day owning class. So for example, under the Labor category they don't measure the freedoms and rights of workers, they measure how restrictive are labor laws on business owners and how costly is it to fire someone and replace them. Ultimately its not measuring people's freedom as a whole, its measuring the freedom of the elite.
  
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When I go to the grocery store and buy a gallon of milk, the deal won't happen if either one of us believes we are being exploited.


6. But the production of that gallon of milk could have involved many different kinds of exploitation beyond your simple transaction. Dairy Farmers being exploited (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112002639) by a colluding milk industry's de facto monopoly. Cows being exploited in various ways like being pumped full of harmful hormones (which in turn makes the milk less healthy for oblivious consumers--real life example of your pooping on the neighbors porch statement).

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Really?  Please explain why you feel this way.


7. Okay...slavery existed for thousands of years including 400+ years of the Atlantic slave trade, followed by a century of indentured servitude, followed by modern-day multinational conglomerates using sweatshop labor. This is some people using their greater level of economic freedom to exploit others sometimes even via the participation of the exploited. Indentured servants and sweatshop workers for example were/are often lied to about the conditions of the exchange but since they did/do operate with little or no government regulation or legislation they can behave this way under a condition of near total economic freedom. Without regulation economic freedom invariably charts a course toward the immoral and exploitative in the pursuit of greater profit.

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Prohibition worked wonders, didn't it?  How about the drug laws?  It's also good to no that their isn't a prostitute to be found except in parts of Nevada, isn't it?


8. So are you saying that I should or should not be prohibited from buying certain things?

Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Fri Dec 11, 2009 - 19:43:41
Since you don't own the river you can't go throw your trash in it.

1. Who keeps them from doing that?


Whoever has the power to make them stop.  Either the folks down stream go knock some sense in to you or, more likely, you are reported to the governmental authority that has the responsibility to keep tabs on such things.  Perfectly reasonable in my book, since protecting from force and fraud is the proper role of government.

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"Public welfare" is an awfully broad term.  What do you mean, exactly?...What do you mean by "social responsibility"?


2. Being responsible for seeking the good of not only ones self but also of one's community and society as a whole.


Ok.  In my experience the most socially responsible people I've ever dealt with were folks out trying to make a buck.

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I don't believe in murder but I can't find a society in the entire history of the world where it never happened, either.


3. That is not a relevant analogy. You're proposing an economic theory as being good and I'm asking for an example of the theory in action. If you were proposing the prohibition of an action like murder then an analogous scenario would be me asking for an example of murder actually being prohibited, which would be easy. If you were proposing a theory that the only good society is one where murder absolutely never occurs--ever. Well, that would be a pointless theory for obvious reasons.


Then go look at the Index of Economic Freedom for starters.  There's an extremely strong relationship between economic liberty and prosperity.  People vote with their feet.  Look at the countries at the top and at the bottom and ask which ones have people wanting to move there.  I will leave it to you why the economic system that is not based from the get go on force and coercion is not morally superior.  It is the one based on serving your fellow man to get ahead instead of rolling him to get ahead.  

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That's no reason to give up on being against murder.  Perfect liberty is aspirational.


4. So you've defined a concept as being the ONLY moral economic system but its never actually been done (and when its been tried it has been catastrophically evil for many millions of people) and since the morally good version of the system is "aspirational" it is presumably impossible to achieve? Hmm...apparently "pure free market" and "pure communism" have more in common than I thought.


The most you can say is that it is the worst one, with the exception of all the others.

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As for countries that have not used their freedom to take away the freedom of others, well, it's always seemed to me, based upon a reading of world history, that personal liberty has not been the norm but an aberation.  One can look at the Index of Economic Freedom ([url]http://www.heritage.org/Index/Ranking.aspx[/url]), and draw their own conclusions about how warlike the freer countries are.


5. I agree that personal liberty has been much more limited for the vast majority of people throughout human history. But every society--in ancient times and today--does have a class of people who have more freedom and opportunity than others. Something like an "owner" class. In fact the Heritage ranking you've posted is a great example of this. Almost every measurement they use to evaluate the level of freedom in a society is from the perspective of the present-day owning class. So for example, under the Labor category they don't measure the freedoms and rights of workers, they measure how restrictive are labor laws on business owners and how costly is it to fire someone and replace them. Ultimately its not measuring people's freedom as a whole, its measuring the freedom of the elite.


People must be leaving in droves.
  
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When I go to the grocery store and buy a gallon of milk, the deal won't happen if either one of us believes we are being exploited.


6. But the production of that gallon of milk could have involved many different kinds of exploitation beyond your simple transaction. Dairy Farmers being exploited ([url]http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112002639[/url]) by a colluding milk industry's de facto monopoly. Cows being exploited in various ways like being pumped full of harmful hormones (which in turn makes the milk less healthy for oblivious consumers--real life example of your pooping on the neighbors porch statement).


Could have, but it doesn't have to be that way.  I consider such things when I decide who I do business with.  So have millions of others who shop at grocery stores that promote healthier foods.

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Really?  Please explain why you feel this way.


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7. Okay...slavery existed for thousands of years including 400+ years of the Atlantic slave trade, followed by a century of indentured servitude, followed by modern-day multinational conglomerates using sweatshop labor. This is some people using their greater level of economic freedom to exploit others sometimes even via the participation of the exploited. Indentured servants and sweatshop workers for example were/are often lied to about the conditions of the exchange but since they did/do operate with little or no government regulation or legislation they can behave this way under a condition of near total economic freedom. Without regulation economic freedom invariably charts a course toward the immoral and exploitative in the pursuit of greater profit.


What you are describing is a combination of force and fraud when it comes to slavery, fraud when it comes to folks being lied to, and folks often times taking what you describe as sweatshop conditions because they consider them better than available alternatives.

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Prohibition worked wonders, didn't it?  How about the drug laws?  It's also good to no that their isn't a prostitute to be found except in parts of Nevada, isn't it?


8. So are you saying that I should or should not be prohibited from buying certain things?


I will say that there are many things that you are prohibited from buying that is not the business of a properly functioning government.  I'm not saying those are good things, but that it is your choice.


Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Logismos on Sat Dec 12, 2009 - 17:45:01
Perfectly reasonable in my book, since protecting from force and fraud is the proper role of government.

So then is an immoral firm is negatively impacting society, such as through pollution, not an issue of economic freedom? If not, does the government then have a legitimate duty to prevent such acts from occurring?

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In my experience the most socially responsible people I've ever dealt with were folks out trying to make a buck.

LOL...nothing inherently wrong with making profit and doing so has socially beneficial consequences. But its still funny to hear because a huge portion of all the most socially destructive forces in the world are rooted in people trying to make make a buck.

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Then go look at the Index of Economic Freedom for starters.  There's an extremely strong relationship between economic liberty and prosperity.

Again that ranking is only measuring the freedom of the owning class. It is not measuring quality of life for the general population. For example, I would much rather be an average income person in Japan or Britain or Denmark (etc) than Hong Kong, which beyond the skyscrapers and prosperity for some is a hub of poverty and exploitation (like many countries).

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The most you can say is that it is the worst one, with the exception of all the others.

I can accept that, but that statement would be a departure from your previous claim that a free market is an inherently "moral" system.

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People must be leaving in droves.

Whether people are trying to get in our out of a society is not a measurment of whether or not the system itself is "moral" but whether or not the system possesses opportunities for people to sustain themselves and have stability.
  
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Could have, but it doesn't have to be that way.  I consider such things when I decide who I do business with.  So have millions of others who shop at grocery stores that promote healthier foods.

People do consider those things and in the process of exercising their economic freedom they overwhelmingly agree to consume products that are more exploitative and negatively impact others and take away their freedom. So even though you're not using your economic freedom to deliberately exploit or take away the freedom of the person you are directly dealing with at the store, you are aware that that most purchases have certain exploitative costs and some person somewhere on the planet who may not even be involved in the market transaction is being exploited to bring you that product.

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What you are describing is a combination of force and fraud when it comes to slavery, fraud when it comes to folks being lied to, and folks often times taking what you describe as sweatshop conditions because they consider them better than available alternatives.

Can force and fraud be separated from Capitalism? They have been trying to separate them for several hundred years now without success.

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I will say that there are many things that you are prohibited from buying that is not the business of a properly functioning government.  I'm not saying those are good things, but that it is your choice.

You're really dancing around this one a lot. I get what you're saying--you think the government regulates the purchase of too many things. But my question is simply what is a justifiable basis for making the purchase of something illegal? If you were king what would be illegal to buy?
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Wed Dec 16, 2009 - 07:27:20
So then is an immoral firm is negatively impacting society, such as through pollution, not an issue of economic freedom? If not, does the government then have a legitimate duty to prevent such acts from occurring?

I've met individuals and families, and have seen many a beast, but I've never run across a "society".  Anyway, it would be a violation of my property rights if you were producing something that harmed me or mine and your actions had it come onto our property.  It would, as I said earlier, be a proper role of government to deal with that. 

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In my experience the most socially responsible people I've ever dealt with were folks out trying to make a buck.

LOL...nothing inherently wrong with making profit and doing so has socially beneficial consequences. But its still funny to hear because a huge portion of all the most socially destructive forces in the world are rooted in people trying to make make a buck.

An incredibly small portion when compared to the destruction caused to individuals and families by governments.

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Then go look at the Index of Economic Freedom for starters.  There's an extremely strong relationship between economic liberty and prosperity.

Again that ranking is only measuring the freedom of the owning class. It is not measuring quality of life for the general population. For example, I would much rather be an average income person in Japan or Britain or Denmark (etc) than Hong Kong, which beyond the skyscrapers and prosperity for some is a hub of poverty and exploitation (like many countries).

It measures the freedom of people.  Perhaps your world view is that of one who has always lived in a caste system.  Mine is not.  If you would rather go live in one of the coutries towards the bottom of the list, go for it.

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The most you can say is that it is the worst one, with the exception of all the others.

I can accept that, but that statement would be a departure from your previous claim that a free market is an inherently "moral" system.

I said that's the most YOU can say, because you can't find anything better.  If you don't believe the free market is inherently moral, then you would have made a quite contented slave owner.

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People must be leaving in droves.

Whether people are trying to get in our out of a society is not a measurment of whether or not the system itself is "moral" but whether or not the system possesses opportunities for people to sustain themselves and have stability.

It is a measurement by those who are trying to get from one place to another.
 
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Could have, but it doesn't have to be that way.  I consider such things when I decide who I do business with.  So have millions of others who shop at grocery stores that promote healthier foods.

People do consider those things and in the process of exercising their economic freedom they overwhelmingly agree to consume products that are more exploitative and negatively impact others and take away their freedom. So even though you're not using your economic freedom to deliberately exploit or take away the freedom of the person you are directly dealing with at the store, you are aware that that most purchases have certain exploitative costs and some person somewhere on the planet who may not even be involved in the market transaction is being exploited to bring you that product.

If each transaction in the chain occured only with both sides to the transactions agreed, then no.

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What you are describing is a combination of force and fraud when it comes to slavery, fraud when it comes to folks being lied to, and folks often times taking what you describe as sweatshop conditions because they consider them better than available alternatives.

Can force and fraud be separated from Capitalism? They have been trying to separate them for several hundred years now without success.

Actually with incredible success.  Especially when compared to all other economic systems because all other economic systems are based upon the coercive use of force. 

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I will say that there are many things that you are prohibited from buying that is not the business of a properly functioning government.  I'm not saying those are good things, but that it is your choice.

You're really dancing around this one a lot. I get what you're saying--you think the government regulates the purchase of too many things. But my question is simply what is a justifiable basis for making the purchase of something illegal? If you were king what would be illegal to buy?

The basis for making the purchase of something illegal would be if my purchase subjected you to force or fraud. 


Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Logismos on Fri Dec 18, 2009 - 00:04:25
It measures the freedom of people.  Perhaps your world view is that of one who has always lived in a caste system.  Mine is not.  If you would rather go live in one of the coutries towards the bottom of the list, go for it.

It doesn't matter what your world view is, the specific criteria measured on that web site to determine freedom are from the perspective of businesses as it relates to business management and ownership freedoms. Believe it or not but only a small minority of the people on the planet own or manage businesses. Those are important freedoms, but not the only ones. There are other kinds of liberties, rights, and measurments of opportunity and standard of living that are not part of their ranking. So assuming that the ones high on the list are automatically more "prosperous" thoughout in a quality of life sense is a false assumption.

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Actually with incredible success.  Especially when compared to all other economic systems because all other economic systems are based upon the coercive use of force.

Are you talking about our current system in the united states?

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The basis for making the purchase of something illegal would be if my purchase subjected you to force or fraud.  

So crack cocaine...bazookas....concentual child porn...etc....all legal?

Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: tennman on Wed Jan 06, 2010 - 11:46:02
It's amusing to me how people choose to forget what a free market has done for this country and the world. The free market made the United States the wealthiest nation in history with an economy that's the envy of the world even in bad times. And we want to talk about anti-free-market countries and philosophies, dignifying the concepts that history has flunked?!  Logs sits around enjoying the fruits of the free market, but slams it. It truly must take a generation who has experienced lost freedom to appreciate the FREE market.

That is how freedom will die. Freedom is not that big of a deal when you're not worried about losing it. But when you finally realize that freedom is in danger, it will be as precious as air.

It should be disturbing that people who only a few years ago were rolling their eyes at people who said that Democrats were acting like socialists who are now asking why there's a problem with socialism. They've put the Democrat party over freedom. Democrats reach more and more into our pockets to take what we work for and those who want to be on a winning team or don't want to admit they're wrong about what Democrats have become do mental gymnastics and offer up their financial freedom on a platter so that they can stick with their political party. No wonder George Washington warned that we stay away from political parties because people will put their party over the good of the nation. I wish we could do away with political labels and just vote by a person's record. If that happened, we'd never have to worry about a socialist takeover.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Logismos on Thu Jan 07, 2010 - 22:53:18
Logs sits around enjoying the fruits of the free market, but slams it.

You've not comprehended my position then. I've never "slammed" the concept of a free market. A free market is essential to an efficient society that is productive and adaptive to change. I simply have a balanced view. It has to be intelligently regulated. Attempts at wholesale removing economic freedom have failed but so have attempts at wholesale elimination of all regulation. Good public stewardship of the economy leads to stability and a reduction of market failure (like externalities). Stability and lack of market failure are also sources of long term prosperity which cannot be ensured by attempts at pure socialism or by attempts at pure free market economics.

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The free market made the United States the wealthiest nation in history with an economy that's the envy of the world

America rose to prominance particularly after 1918. After this point one could scarcely call the US a completely free market system. Perhaps in the Jacksonian area we were and it was a disaster. No economic security, frequent economic depressions. After the world wars taxes were hiked up, the government became a huge central bureaucratic force. Especially during and after WWII the scale of economic freedom was definitely in the socialist area (a time of production and prosperity in the 40s and 50s that many conservatives are ironically nostalgic for). In fact we didn't really shift back toward an emphasis on free market dominance until the late 1970s.

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It truly must take a generation who has experienced lost freedom to appreciate the FREE market.

That is true, and the opposite is also true. Great tyranny and hard times were faced by societies that experimented with near complete economic freedom, such as the US and Britain in the 19th century.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: tennman on Fri Jan 08, 2010 - 16:23:21
Logs, your last comment, in addition to others, shows your determination to support a political party or philosophy over reality.

You said:

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Great tyranny and hard times were faced by societies that experimented with near complete economic freedom, such as the US and Britain in the 19th century.

What a load. Yes, freedom is dangerous in your book. You sure your name isn't Karl Marx? I'm curious though...why don't you move to a place like Cuba? I'm seriously asking. I mean, when you take out the political party blinders, the vast, vast majority of Americans are for a free market and see the need to make ours more free. So if you don't like that idea, why don't you "better" yourself and move somewhere where the government has even more power than our already-too-big-and-meddling government? Honestly, if you like a system opposite of ours, why stay here? It sure sounds like you're enjoying what's realistic (that the free market is best) but like to talk about theory and philosophy. Why not put your money where your mouth is? Oh wait...you want the government to take your money. But seriously, Cuba is not that far away.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Logismos on Sun Jan 10, 2010 - 11:28:39
Once again for the record, I am advocating for a mostly free market system that is intelligently regulated. Both pure capitalism and pure socialism are socially destructive. Your attempt to paint me as a socialist simply for mentioning flaws that exist within captialism is incorrect and unreasonable, especially since I have stated my view several times now. So characterizing me otherwise without evidence is dishonest.

What a load.

This sentence here was the only one from your last post that was not a personal attack. Aside from your  personal attacks do you have anything worthwhile to say? Such as why the sentence you quoted was "a load?"

The 19th century saw a major increase in industrialization (which was both good and bad), European and American imperialism, as well as a  well documented array of domestic cruelties and exploitations by capitalists during a time where the philosophy in both the US and Britain was to let business do whatever it wants. Are you really going to argue that the 19th century was not a time of free market exploitation? Child labor, indentured servitude, horrid working conditions, etc.  For example here is a very brief summary of the battle between philanthropists (charitable groups) and capitalists in Britain in the mid 1800 (not an authoritative history but gives you some elementary basics to work with):

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Philanthropists of 19th Century Britain Fighting Against Cruelty and Exploitation

In 1840, the British Parliament was presented with a shocking document that revealed the appalling conditions endured by women and children working in the coal mines.

The report had been pioneered by the great Victorian philanthropist Anthony Ashley Cooper, 7th Earl of Shaftesbury, who had been horrified when he discovered the cruelty and abuse the poor were forced go suffer at the hands of their employers.

Young Children at Work in the Mines

For example, children aged four or five sat underground all day opening and shutting doors. A six year old girl was made to carry 56 lbs. of coal and “regularly making with this load fourteen long and toilsome journeys a day
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: johnnyQ on Fri Jan 15, 2010 - 16:09:52
I didn't take the time to read thru the whole thread, but did anyone ever mention that one of the first century churches pooled their resources and gave to all as they had need?  That seems a bit like communism to me.  Not that I want to live that way, but just to say,....Hey, there it is in the New Testament. Some are really big on following Biblical examples, well, there's one to follow.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Fri Jan 15, 2010 - 21:45:25
I assume they were not forcibly compelled to give all they had for communal living. That's worlds different than the government taking it for redistribution. I find no fault in folks consenting to do whatever they want including giving away all their money to charity.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Bon Voyage on Fri Jan 15, 2010 - 22:31:08
Pure communism as practiced by the church of Jerusalem was voluntary.  The for of governmental communism of Russia, China, etc is not the utopian communism, but a tyrannical oligarchy much like the fiefdom's of Europe in the middle ages, maybe less benevolent though.

Any monetary system or governmental system is limited by the human element.  Capitalism is not without flaws, because humans are selfish by nature.  Governmental regulation of capitalism is also flawed due to the same reason.

Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Logismos on Mon Jan 18, 2010 - 01:07:37
johnnyQ:

did anyone ever mention that one of the first century churches pooled their resources and gave to all as they had need?  That seems a bit like communism to me.


It has been brought up but it is always shot down on the basis that it was voluntary and therefore not relevant today. It is relevant though because it shows that egalitarian living was considered "good" by the earliest Christians. So those who try to argue that communism is inherently always evil are ignoring an indisputable Biblical example of what is considered moral behavior for a society.



Jaime:

I assume they were not forcibly compelled to give all they had for communal living.


I think Ananias and Sapphira (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ananias_and_Sapphira) would strongly disagree with you.



Bocephus

The for of governmental communism of Russia, China, etc is not the utopian communism, but a tyrannical oligarchy much like the fiefdom's of Europe in the middle ages, maybe less benevolent though.


Stalinist Russia and Revolutionary China and every single other attempt at communism was done through extreme authoritarianism, which is what made them so horrible. Plus all were all the result of political instability rather than the conscious reform by an informed population. Also, all of them were pre-industrial societies attempting to use authoritarian socialism to force industrial growth. Thus our impression of "communism" today is a false vision of politically and economically backward people ruled by harsh dictatorships even though none of those characteristics are inherent to socialism.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Mon Jan 18, 2010 - 11:30:52
Log, Ananias and Saphira were punished for lying that they had sold their land and gave ALL to the church. They of course kept some back for themselves. They were not forced to give anything from what I recall about the story.They just tried to take more credit than they were due.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Logismos on Mon Jan 18, 2010 - 12:19:55
Obviously it is because they lied. But its remarkable that this particular instance of lying resulted in the death penalty for two believers. Only three people are mentioned as being killed directly by God in the entire New Testament. These two and Herod. So why the extraordinary measure in this case? Perhaps we can't know for sure but we can at least say that its possible that not only was it a lie (not unique) but it was also an offense against the commune of believers for not giving all of their stuff and thus threatening the fundamental communal basis of the early Christian Church in that location.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: admin on Mon Jan 18, 2010 - 12:30:51
Government based communism puts a small group of overlords in charge of dividing out money. That small group in every situation where it's been tried ended up giving themselves incredible wealth and making the people wait in line for basics AND rationing certain things.

Trying to compare the system used by the early church, which was voluntary (Ananias and Saphira lying was their issue) to a government run communism is off base. The best government system is one where the people are free economically. If you, Logs, want to live in a commune and have your income split amongst the others, you are certainly free to do that in this country. But if the government forces you into communism I don't think you'll be pleased with the outcome. The government is NOT the church and will certainly not have its motives.

If the government forces communism, you can rest assured that the mission of the church will not receive a portion of government rations. A church-based commune is only possible under a government that would allow its people the freedom to actually do that with their income. A communist system doesn't allow economic freedom and therefore a church-based commune like in the New Testament would not even be possible.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Mon Jan 18, 2010 - 12:34:35
Obviously it is because they lied. But its remarkable that this particular instance of lying resulted in the death penalty for two believers. Only three people are mentioned as being killed directly by God in the entire New Testament. These two and Herod. So why the extraordinary measure in this case? Perhaps we can't know for sure but we can at least say that its possible that not only was it a lie (not unique) but it was also an offense against the commune of believers for not giving all of their stuff and thus threatening the fundamental communal basis of the early Christian Church in that location.

Again their offense was not that they didn't give all, their offense was that they lied about it:

Act 5:1  But a man named Ananias--his wife, Sapphira, conniving in this with him--sold a piece of land,
Act 5:2  secretly kept part of the price for himself, and then brought the rest to the apostles and made an offering of it.
Act 5:3  Peter said, "Ananias, how did Satan get you to lie to the Holy Spirit and secretly keep back part of the price of the field?
Act 5:4  Before you sold it, it was all yours, and after you sold it, the money was yours to do with as you wished. So what got into you to pull a trick like this? You didn't lie to men but to God."
Act 5:5  Ananias, when he heard those words, fell down dead. That put the fear of God into everyone who heard of it.
Act 5:6  The younger men went right to work and wrapped him up, then carried him out and buried him.
Act 5:7  Not more than three hours later, his wife, knowing nothing of what had happened, came in.
Act 5:8  Peter said, "Tell me, were you given this price for your field?" "Yes," she said, "that price."
Act 5:9  Peter responded, "What's going on here that you connived to conspire against the Spirit of the Master? The men who buried your husband are at the door, and you're next."
Act 5:10  No sooner were the words out of his mouth than she also fell down, dead. When the young men returned they found her body. They carried her out and buried her beside her husband.


Note in verse 4, the money was THEIR's to do with as they pleased after they sold the land. No forced compulsion.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Mon Jan 18, 2010 - 12:53:48
Jaime,

Mmm hmm.  There we have Peter in 5:4 endorsing the self-evident right to liberty which, of all economic systems, is only found in the free market.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Logismos on Mon Jan 18, 2010 - 13:04:03
admin:

Government based communism

Communism is a stateless and classless society where everyone is equal. There is no such thing as government-based communism. Its a contradiction in terms. What you seem opposed to is any type of extreme authoritarianism.

Jaime:

All that verse 4 is saying is that legally it was their property before the sale, it was their money after the sale. The point though is that they were presumably banding together and throwing their property into a common pot and these two claimed to do so and lied about it. They were not compelled to give their property by force, but they failed to do so and lied about it they were killed which is an extraordinary measure because there are no other instances of Christians being struck down by God in the Bible for lying or anything else.

Ultimately the early church in Acts portrays an example of people living in communal economic equality as a good thing and one pair of Christians who defied it were killed for various reasons.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Mon Jan 18, 2010 - 13:10:04
They were killed for lying to the spirit of God, not to men.

It was an extreme lesson for the rest of the believers. A lesson in not lying to the spirit, not a lesson in giving all one had to the church.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: tennman on Mon Jan 18, 2010 - 17:42:44
So Log, what would you call Communist Cuba?

Second, is it wrong of me to think that if I work for 70 hours this week that I have the right to earn more than the person who does the same job for 30 hours?
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: johnnyQ on Tue Jan 19, 2010 - 13:45:46
I thought the topic was Communism vs. Christianity, I didn't know it was FORCED Communism vs. Christianity.  I don't want FORCED anything.  Do you?  I say NO to FORCED COMMUNISM as much as I would say NO to FORCED CHRISTIANITY or FORCED CAPITALISM.

Sort of like those discussions about the verse that talks about women not USURPING authority.  Well, as much as I never use the word USURP in my daily rhetoric, and I bet no one else does either,...I did take time to look up the definition, which is "to take by force".  Well I don't want a MAN nor a WOMAN taking authority over me by force.  I can't think of a time that the word "FORCE" can be used to describe a Biblically accurate behavior exhibited by Jesus, the Christ. How much force can servants exhibit.  And Jesus said if you want to lead you must be a servant and then He tied on the towel and show His disciples exactly how to do it.

jq
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Tue Jan 19, 2010 - 21:50:49
I thought the topic was Communism vs. Christianity, I didn't know it was FORCED Communism vs. Christianity.  I don't want FORCED anything.  Do you?  I say NO to FORCED COMMUNISM as much as I would say NO to FORCED CHRISTIANITY or FORCED CAPITALISM.

Sort of like those discussions about the verse that talks about women not USURPING authority.  Well, as much as I never use the word USURP in my daily rhetoric, and I bet no one else does either,...I did take time to look up the definition, which is "to take by force".  Well I don't want a MAN nor a WOMAN taking authority over me by force.  I can't think of a time that the word "FORCE" can be used to describe a Biblically accurate behavior exhibited by Jesus, the Christ. How much force can servants exhibit.  And Jesus said if you want to lead you must be a servant and then He tied on the towel and show His disciples exactly how to do it.

jq

Capitalism isn't something that is forced.  It is what happens when the government respects fundamental human rights.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: johnnyQ on Wed Jan 20, 2010 - 17:33:01
You are right, Nick, it's complete freedom and it's every man for himself, no one can hold me down but ME. Now, since we are comparing communism and Christianity,...if we compared that definition of capitalism to the teaching of Jesus, the Christ.......I don't think it will end up being so Biblically supported,....especially when Jesus said it won't bode well for us if we do not "take care of the least of these",.....because when we do it unto them, we do it unto HIM.

I am all for capitalism,....but its not God's way as some portray it to be.  Give to Cesar what is Cesar's and to God what is God's.

jq
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Fri Jan 22, 2010 - 12:34:25
So, you're saying that respect for fundamental human rights is antithetical to the teachings of Christ? 
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: johnnyQ on Fri Jan 22, 2010 - 12:38:35
What I am saying is what capitalism is and what Christianity is isn't always in sync.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Fri Jan 22, 2010 - 13:25:41
What teachings of Christianity are you suggesting teach that individual liberty should be opposed?
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: johnnyQ on Fri Jan 22, 2010 - 13:30:46
Didn't say that, Nick.

Christianity is about taking care of the least of these,....Capitalism is not.  That's just one large glowing difference.  Can Christianity work inside a capitalist society sure,...it can work under any government.

jq
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Fri Jan 22, 2010 - 14:44:11
Does taking care of the "least of these" mean only a governmental effort? I contend Christians flourish under capitalism and THEN take care of the Least of these individually. Communism or collectivism reduces incentive thus the least of these will have less. Johnny your assertion assumes that capitalistic Christians would by definition be greeedy. I don't buy that. Americans (yes Christian Americans) are the most generous folks on earth, all the while being capitalists.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Fri Jan 22, 2010 - 15:32:23
Didn't say that, Nick.

Christianity is about taking care of the least of these,....Capitalism is not.  That's just one large glowing difference.  Can Christianity work inside a capitalist society sure,...it can work under any government.

jq

I beg to differ.  Capitalism is a competition to see who can serve people the most efficiently.  Why is there a Wal-Mart and not a Montgomery Ward?  Simple.  The people of Wal-Mart did a better job of serving their felllow man.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: johnnyQ on Fri Jan 22, 2010 - 15:56:35
Sorry, Capitalism's all about money,....Christianity is not. Christianity is about LOVE of others, Capitalism is about love of self. Christianity is about faith, captialism is about profit. Truely helping your neighbor is not profitable.  Putting the best interest of others above your own doesn't put dollars on the bottom line.  At least not the kind of care Jesus showed.  It got Him killed. Paul says if we are living as Jesus we will be persecuted and we should rejoice in that.

jq
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Fri Jan 22, 2010 - 16:09:56
Johnny, it is very much possible to be profitable and put the best interest of our fellow man forward. Successful comanies everywhere in this country do exactly that. Are there exceptions, of course. But Nick is right. Build a better mouse trap (something for the good of mankind) and the world will beat a path (commerce for profit) to your door. Individuals and corporations that make profit in turn give generously as has been the case with the Haitian earthquake. If there was not adequate profit, no one would be able to give and help those in need. We would all be in the same "needy boat".
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: johnnyQ on Fri Jan 22, 2010 - 16:52:45
I profit well and daily.  You misunderstand. I am not speaking out against profits(or prophets, for that matter).  I am just saying that Capitalism is NOT synonymous with Christianity. That's all. There are many times the two vary incredibly.  Many make a huge mistake and try to run the church like a business in the typical American business model. Wrong!! You can't read the NT or look at the life of Jesus and see a business or capitalism.  Capitalism is good, but it is not, by a long shot, endorsed anywhere as the God ordained way. God never ordained a government. As I stated earlier there is a passage in the NT that speaks about a first century church, maybe in Corinth, that pooled their resources and gave to any as they had need.  NO it wasn't forced, but if you will look, "forced" is not in the title at the top of this thread.  We are not like God, and cannot speak for Him where He has not spoken in sanctioning one government as "Christian" and another as "non Christian". His thoughts and ways are not our thoughts and ways. Even in a nation that doesn't recognize God,...Christianity thrived.

jq
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Fri Jan 22, 2010 - 17:28:24
Forced communism IS what we are against. Sure if folks want to pool their resources and live communally, that is NOT communism, that is communalism. Communism is forced collectivism, nothing like the biblical example as you have pointed out, however the thread's topic is communism, not communalism.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: johnnyQ on Sat Jan 23, 2010 - 09:03:48
The only examples of communism you know are forced, therefore you are projecting your known examples into the definition of communism, which doesn't include the word "forced" nor anything synonymous.  This is the definition I found of communism:

a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Jaime on Sat Jan 23, 2010 - 12:06:03
If you will google communalism your definition fits perfectly.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Bon Voyage on Sat Jan 23, 2010 - 12:07:32
The only examples of communism you know are forced, therefore you are projecting your known examples into the definition of communism, which doesn't include the word "forced" nor anything synonymous.  This is the definition I found of communism:

a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.

Forced or not, communism suffers the same problem as capitalism or any other economic or governmental system.  People.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Sun Jan 24, 2010 - 20:12:12
The only examples of communism you know are forced, therefore you are projecting your known examples into the definition of communism, which doesn't include the word "forced" nor anything synonymous.  This is the definition I found of communism:

a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.

Which can only be obtained by force as long as only one person in the state says he'll just continue to be the owner of his stuff.
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: Mere Nick on Sun Jan 24, 2010 - 20:13:24
The only examples of communism you know are forced, therefore you are projecting your known examples into the definition of communism, which doesn't include the word "forced" nor anything synonymous.  This is the definition I found of communism:

a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.

Forced or not, communism suffers the same problem as capitalism or any other economic or governmental system.  People.

In which system can you more readily tell someone to pound sand?
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: johnnyQ on Mon Jan 25, 2010 - 15:36:21
In our society, you CAN tell them all day, every day to pound sand, but unless you have a good deal of money, our politicians ain't listening to you and they don't care what you say,...so you might consider whether you should say anything at all.

jq
Title: Re: RE: Communism and Christianity
Post by: gospel on Wed Feb 24, 2010 - 13:47:08

If communism is so evil and such a harsh thing for Christians to allow why is the church growing in a communist country?


Communism IS an evil and harsh thing, and Christianity is flourishing in Communist China not because Communism is so tolerant or wonderful but because the Gospel is so powerful and succeeds in spite of an evil regime. Has nothing to do WITH Communism, but everything to do WITH the GOSPEL AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.

 ::amen!::

No question about it...communist countries have historically been atheist as a rule.
China is tolerating Christianity because they can't find a way to stop it without revealing their frustration against Christians through more imprisonment and persecution and thereby destroy their carefully cultivated image of recent years.

Most communist countries and dictatorships worship the leader in place of God.
In the past in China that was Mao, just recently here in America a couple of government officials have went on record praising Mao as well...go figure ::headscratch::

Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: fcadcock on Thu Mar 11, 2010 - 19:40:14
First, China is socialist, not communist.  No country has ever successfully adopted a true communist government.

China allows private ownership of property and business.  It allows for free market enterprise among small businesses where people are free to choose between competing dealers for the best price on goods.  It allows companies to set their own wages for employees.  This is socialism, where the large decisions are made by government and handed down with no voting power by citizens.

Neither socialists nor communists dislike religion.  The dislike of religion comes from Lenninism.  As in USSR.  They believed that religion was a tool created by the upper classes to calm and subdue the working class, and therefore outlawed religion in order to help free the mind of the worker.  China has never outlawed religion.  Christianity, yes, but never religion.

Why did China outlaw Christianity?  For one, they believed it to be a western influence on society which was to be avoided in order to promote Chinese self worth.  Second, it was their belief that theirs was the correct religion.  Much the same as the Roman Catholics once believed that theirs was the only true religion and persecuted those who believed otherwise.

In all reality, communism has some really great ideas.  Fair, flat taxation policies; equal wages among workers; open access to knowledge and industry; the idea that anyone can be anything based only on his or her skills and not social class, race, religion, or upbringing.  These are all great things.  The problem with this form of government is it allows for no checks or balances against abuse by the ruling party other than violent overthrow by the workers.  To ensure violent overthrow isn't possible, the ruling class then denies the working class freedom of communication, access to information, access to weapons, and wages capable of sustaining an overthrow.

The saddest part is that I see these very things happening today in America and we are allowing it to happen.

I'll take socialized medicine any day as long as it is run by people who are subject to true oversight and held accountable, including using their own socialized medicine.  I would gladly live in a communist country so long as it was run by people who were subject to true oversight and held accountable.  I would not choose to live in any socialist regime the world has seen so far, and I am starting to rethink my choices about this one as it moves closer and closer to a democratic socialist regime where the working class is suppressed for the benefit of the ruling class. 
Title: Re: Communism vs. Christianity
Post by: tennman on Tue Mar 30, 2010 - 22:39:04
I profit well and daily.  You misunderstand. I am not speaking out against profits(or prophets, for that matter).  I am just saying that Capitalism is NOT synonymous with Christianity. That's all. There are many times the two vary incredibly.  Many make a huge mistake and try to run the church like a business in the typical American business model. Wrong!! You can't read the NT or look at the life of Jesus and see a business or capitalism.  Capitalism is good, but it is not, by a long shot, endorsed anywhere as the God ordained way. God never ordained a government. As I stated earlier there is a passage in the NT that speaks about a first century church, maybe in Corinth, that pooled their resources and gave to any as they had need.  NO it wasn't forced, but if you will look, "forced" is not in the title at the top of this thread.  We are not like God, and cannot speak for Him where He has not spoken in sanctioning one government as "Christian" and another as "non Christian". His thoughts and ways are not our thoughts and ways. Even in a nation that doesn't recognize God,...Christianity thrived.

jq

Actually, the Jewish system was a capitalist one. Other than giving 10 percent for God's work and leaving for the poor what they dropped on the ground during harvest, they could keep whatever they produced. They could invest, spend, save, etc. The rule was that if a man wouldn't work, he shouldn't eat. So they knew that if a man was able-bodied but refusing to work, they owed him nothing. If you study the Jewish people in the days of the Old Testament, they were a almost completely pure free market (a.k.a. capitalistic) system.

Johnny, I think you are speaking from a philosophical standpoint because you don't believe we'll really lose our free market system. If you believed it was in danger as many do, I think you'd be speaking strongly against socialism and communism.