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Author Topic: Communism vs. Christianity  (Read 122893 times)

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Offline Brian Kelley

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #140 on: Thu Nov 29, 2007 - 11:33:36 »
And it's a straw man because it was an easy set up.  Present the mob and cartel argument because no one's going to argue that it should be defended, thus an easy knock down and win.  Only problem is, the illegal shadow economies were not the discussion, and are outside of our free enterprise system, and not at all relevant to the discussion of investing, since they are not represented on the NYSE, Nasdaq, Nikkei, or in mutual funds, etc.
Had you explained this, I might have been able to continue.  But short phrases intended to not let me continue to defend my position aren't any better than your "straw man".  I don't see the investments as being different, but as you do, I'll go to the Wall Street version of investment.  Are there not corrupt companies there?  Have there not been scandals and thefts and illegitimate practices in those companies?  If I invest in the company that produces equipment for performing abortions, am I doing a service to mankind?
It's not a matter of "all investments are good" or "all investing is eeeevvvviiiiiilllll."  I'm trying to point out that NOT all investing is good.  It's not everything or nothing.

Did anyone say it was?

Mere Nick said that investment was inherently a service to mankind.  I was trying to say that was not always the case.

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #140 on: Thu Nov 29, 2007 - 11:33:36 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #141 on: Thu Nov 29, 2007 - 11:46:53 »
I didn't see the word always in his assertion. Of course investment in something like drug paraphenalia is not a service to mankind. let's loosen up guys, no need for 4 or 5 pages arguing over stuff like that.

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #141 on: Thu Nov 29, 2007 - 11:46:53 »

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #142 on: Thu Nov 29, 2007 - 11:57:41 »
But short phrases intended to not let me continue to defend my position aren't any better than your "straw man". 
That was not the intention.  And I'll be as brief as I choose to be, thank you. 

Offline Dave...

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #143 on: Mon Dec 03, 2007 - 13:58:59 »
The people defending communism on this thread do not understand what they are defending. I know this for a fact. The Christianity that is "flourishing" in the communist countries that is being allowed by the same government is socialism, not Christianity. We see the same thing happening here in the U.S. Yes, they use the name Jesus and can even quote some scripture, but the foundation of their beliefs are not Bible based, but grounded in secular humanist philosophy. Talk with them for five minutes and this becomes quite obvious.

Real Christianity, if it is in fact flourishing in any communist country, in any way shape or form, would be in spite of the persecution by these same governments, not because of it.

Socialism/communism has never worked, and never will. These are not just economic principles but complete world views. They never build, they only infect and destroy.

I'll debate any honest person in this. Be warned, if you have a pie in the sky idea of communism that you've been programmed to believe in the indoctrination camps called the public school system, I will shatter those false ideas.

Communist Goals (1963) Congressional Record--Appendix, pp. A34-A35
http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm

Dave
« Last Edit: Mon Dec 03, 2007 - 14:13:24 by Dave... »

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #143 on: Mon Dec 03, 2007 - 13:58:59 »

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #144 on: Mon Dec 03, 2007 - 23:11:38 »
The people defending communism on this thread do not understand what they are defending. I know this for a fact. The Christianity that is "flourishing" in the communist countries that is being allowed by the same government is socialism, not Christianity. We see the same thing happening here in the U.S. Yes, they use the name Jesus and can even quote some scripture, but the foundation of their beliefs are not Bible based, but grounded in secular humanist philosophy. Talk with them for five minutes and this becomes quite obvious.

Real Christianity, if it is in fact flourishing in any communist country, in any way shape or form, would be in spite of the persecution by these same governments, not because of it.

Socialism/communism has never worked, and never will. These are not just economic principles but complete world views. They never build, they only infect and destroy.

I'll debate any honest person in this. Be warned, if you have a pie in the sky idea of communism that you've been programmed to believe in the indoctrination camps called the public school system, I will shatter those false ideas.

Communist Goals (1963) Congressional Record--Appendix, pp. A34-A35
http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm

Dave


Exactly. Making the conclusion that just because Christianity has done well, underground in some communist countries doesn't mean that a communistic government stimulates or contributes to the growth of Christianity. Christianity can grow under most any circumstance and IN SPITE of many circumstances, but that doesn't mean that there's any reason to invite persecution and extreme government control.

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #144 on: Mon Dec 03, 2007 - 23:11:38 »



Offline Jimbob

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #145 on: Tue Dec 04, 2007 - 07:20:09 »
If Communism bread rampant underground Christianity, then why did the numbers of Christians in the Soviet Union fall like a rock during its 70 years of Communism?  And yes, I'm well aware there were underground churches in existence, but I've been there lived that.  They were few and far between.  Praise God they held on, but lets not write a revisionist history that says that an abusive, oppressive government was a "good for them."  That's naiveté to its fullest.

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #146 on: Tue Dec 04, 2007 - 07:56:25 »
If Communism bread rampant underground Christianity, then why did the numbers of Christians in the Soviet Union fall like a rock during its 70 years of Communism?  And yes, I'm well aware there were underground churches in existence, but I've been there lived that.  They were few and far between.  Praise God they held on, but lets not write a revisionist history that says that an abusive, oppressive government was a "good for them."  That's naiveté to its fullest.

Same goes for what some say about how Christianity has weathered the onslaught of Islamic oppression.

Offline Dave...

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #147 on: Tue Dec 04, 2007 - 23:20:56 »
Here's one example that explains why "christianity" is allowed in Communist countries, while the real Christianity is being persecuted.

"Evangelical pastor Rick Warren has been invited to preach this summer to some 15,000 Christians in North Korea, a communist country infamous not only for its nuclear threats but also for its religious persecution.
http://www.newswithviews.com/PaulProctor/proctor96.htm

---------------------------------------
1. North Korea

For the fifth year in a row, North Korea heads the World Watch List as the worst violator of religious rights for Christians. Media attention was focused on the country in 2006 but nothing has changed for the North Korean people. The North Korean regime launched missiles and tested nuclear weapons in 2006, which meant a further increase of pressure in the country. We were able to trace more information, which indicated that more Christians were arrested in 2006 than in 2005. There are still many people in labor camps, and everyday life in North Korea is inhuman. Between 50,000 and 70,000 Christians are currently suffering in prison camps. Many of them are tortured. People are still putting their lives at stake by trying to flee to China. After crossing the border, several people have converted after coming into contact with Christians. The newborn Christians are very brave and return to North Korea to tell others about Jesus. Considering Christianity to be a tremendous threat to stability in the country, the North Korean government hunts Christians all over the country, especially those who try to return from China. Many of them were arrested, tortured and even killed. But amidst all the harshness in the country, the local Christians are dedicated to serving the local Body of Christ and are firmly standing strong during this period of relentless persecution.
http://sb.od.org/index.php?supp_page=wwl_top_ten&supp_lang=en

Kim Jong Il, who persecutes Christians daily feels absolutely no threat from Warren's watered down, socialized, methodical socialism that he calls Christianity. In fact, he wants it.

Why would Kim Jong Il feel it necessary to invite Warren?

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a "religious crutch." http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm

If the spreading of Christianity is inevitable in North Korea in this day and age, the greatest fear of communism, then the only option for Kim Jong Il is to poison it and steer it towards communist ideals, as is happening in U.S. with the new age movement.

In this Way, Warren's socialised gospel serves a great purpose for Kim Jong Il

The same thing is happening in China. Socialised, Government christianity has a gret purpose. Real Christianity is still being persecuted.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"In vain do some think that socialism is merely a theory of economics. No, socialism replaces everything with itself; it is founding its own religion. In the resolutions of the various socialist assemblies and the discourses of socialist leaders one finds clearly and definitely expressed the demand for a revolution in all human thought. "Socialism is not and cannot be a mere economic science, a question concerning the stomach only... In the final analysis, socialists are striving to bring about revolution throughout the entire juridical, moral, philosophical, and religious superstructure" (Vandervelde). "Is socialism merely an economic theory?," we read in the socialistic catechism of Bax and Kvelch; "In no way! Socialism envelops all the relations of human life." According to Bax, in religion socialism is expressed as atheistic humanism."

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism." --Nikita Khrushchev

"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas

Offline Dunamite

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #148 on: Tue Dec 11, 2007 - 13:24:47 »
George Gilder was right when he said "Greed is an appetite for unneeded and unearned wealth and power.  The truly greedy seek comfort and security first.  They seek goods and clout they have not earned.  Because the best and safest way to gain unearned pay is to get the state to take it from others, greed leads, as by an invisible hand, toward ever more government action - to socialism, not capitalism."

What makes free market capitalism so wonderful?  It is an aristocracy of merit.  To prosper, you must serve.





I don't see ths as being true at all.  To prosper, you must make lucky investment choices.  Investment has no service in it whatsoever.  In fact, one of the main communist principles is a Biblical one:  If you don't work, you don't eat.  That sounds like exactly what you're looking for...
How is this different from gambling if "luck" is involved? In both investing and gambling there are no guarantees. In both cases knowledge improves your chances for success. Certainly some investment markets offer no better odds than putting you money on a spin of the roulette wheel.

Offline Dunamite

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #149 on: Tue Dec 11, 2007 - 14:30:43 »
I think your interpreting the facts through your foregone conclusions.
We all filter things though our conscious mind. We form our worldview from our observations. This enables us to interpret the world and make sense of it.

We should be always check ourselves and periodically modify our worldview because as we age we change and of course the world is also constantly changing. I would be surprised if anyone had a static worldview.

I experienced a paradigm shift when I accepted Christ (25 years ago). I expected that this would color my perceptions and make me more conservative, but it didn't. If nothing it entrenched my left wing views. I could see the unfairness in the world and now I saw that Jesus had a heart for the weak, poor and down-trodden, like I did.

Many American Christians have bought into conservativism for reasons that escape me. They see Christ as a conservative while I see him as a radical. If he was conservative then the establishment surely would not have rejected him. When I read scripture I see Christ attacking the establishment of his day, the Sadducees, the Pharisees and the Sanhedrin. He attacked their self righteous hypocrisy, their uncaring attitude and self centered lifestyle.

I see conservatives today in that same place. They want to keep their traditions, their privilege and their way of life. They insulate themselves from the common people and have lost touch with reality. They see others in terms of their own reality. They view the common people as losers, deserving of what they have got out of life. They think that everyone can be like they are if only they worked harder. This of course is a great deseption which they try to keep alive.

God made enough to go around. He did not make people poor. He did not make others to want more that their neighbor. That comes from the human heart and temptations of Satan. We unequally distribute God's bounty. We set up systems of government and economics. We entrench in law the unfairness that comes from our desire to promote our interests over someone else's.  In God's world we will all be winners.

As a leftist, I think that we can right some of the wrongs. I think that the laws we have were made by the landed and the rich. They came out of the medieval era. They favor their position. Anything that the common man has got they have had to fight for and in many cases die for. I don't think that there is any rule that God made which gives the rich the right to exploit the poor.

I think that common people are the majority, but that the legal, economic and political systems were set in place long ago and that they guarantee the success of the privileged class. They have succeeded to create a fiction that there is no class system in America and that anyone by virtue of hard work can succeed. But to succeed is to lose the common touch and to become like them.

Mussolini said that "fascism should be correctly called corporatism". Living in a society which is based on corporate success is by his definition fascist. Corporations do not have a vote in a democracy, but by owning the media and by controlling the economy they get the only say that matters. They dictate who runs, who succeeds and ultimately who you will choose. They give media access and slant it in the same way that they do in a fascist state. They crown the next "Prince" in the way that would make Machiavelli.

Corporations control the the judicial system as well as the economic and political. Judges at the highest level are appointees of the political. Judges are chosen for their friendliness to the agenda of the administration which is friendly to the agenda of the corporate masters. Lower down judges are elected in the U.S., but the political process is marred because it gives preference to those who can raise the most money and are therefore friendliest to those with money, the wealthy, including those with the most money corporations.

Democracy is a delusion and a sham. It exists only to give legitimacy to the wealthy class. When we served our medieval masters we had no such delusions. We had few rights, but at least we know where we stood.

To the corporate masters it does not matter who is elected in the end. They know that whoever is elected will come hat in hand for money. They let the hopeful know where they stand and there is an unwritten contract that they will work within the parameters they set out. The candidate knows that failure to deliver is not an option for the corporate masters. It is therefore just a question of who is able to best sell themselves to the public.

I personally believe that there are even more insidious forces at work in all western democracies. I think there is a whole network of influential people functioning in all areas of expertise dedicated to a common purpose. I think that they are secretive and work behind the scenes for a common purpose. These people know who each other is and that is enough for them. We are not to know who they are, but you can count on one thing that if they are in a position of power then they are either directly involved or are being manipulated. As Christians we are told that Satan is the prince of this world. Centralization of wealth and power plays into his hands and we would be remiss if we discounted either his power or desire to manipulate the world.

Satan is subtle. He lures us and beguiles us. He uses illusion and deception as tools. It would be a mistake to think that democracy, communism  or capitalism is good in and of itself.

I challenge myself and it often takes me into places other people do not want to go. I can be accused of being alarmist or extreme, but I don't think that I can be accused of being ill-informed or asleep at the wheel. I do not buy into the party line and I probably won't because I think it is based on lies and deception. Until I know better I will keep my guard up.

Blessings,
Dunamite


Offline Dunamite

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #150 on: Tue Dec 11, 2007 - 14:49:51 »
The people defending communism on this thread do not understand what they are defending. I know this for a fact. The Christianity that is "flourishing" in the communist countries that is being allowed by the same government is socialism, not Christianity. We see the same thing happening here in the U.S. Yes, they use the name Jesus and can even quote some scripture, but the foundation of their beliefs are not Bible based, but grounded in secular humanist philosophy. Talk with them for five minutes and this becomes quite obvious.

Real Christianity, if it is in fact flourishing in any communist country, in any way shape or form, would be in spite of the persecution by these same governments, not because of it.

Socialism/communism has never worked, and never will. These are not just economic principles but complete world views. They never build, they only infect and destroy.

I'll debate any honest person in this. Be warned, if you have a pie in the sky idea of communism that you've been programmed to believe in the indoctrination camps called the public school system, I will shatter those false ideas.

Communist Goals (1963) Congressional Record--Appendix, pp. A34-A35
http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm

Dave


Be careful what you quote as "fact". Go back to communist ideology if you must, but do not accept heresay evidence. I have read all of Das Capital and the Communist Manifesto, in fact all the works of Marx and Engels.

I reject communism, not because it is inherently bad. I reject it because it cannot be achieved in the way that Marx envisioned. The state cannot wither away. States involve the centralization of power and authority and it is not in the human heart to relinquish control. Even in the U.S.A. I see countless church leaders who want to seize control and to use it for their own purposes. If the church can be thus deluded then we are indeed lost.

I reject communism because it is unworkable, not on religious grounds. I similarly reject capitalism because it is unworkable.

I am only a leftist because I think that the poor, the sick and the powerless deserve a break. I think that too many people are getting more than they need and more than they would get if things were equally divided. I am a privileged middle aged white Anglo-Saxon male. I have got far more than I deserve because I was smart and knew how the system worked. I knew how to succeed in school and how to get ahead. Kids from privileged background pick this up by osmosis. It cannot be taught. If you don't see it in your surroundings you have to seek it out. Otherwise you can be as smart and talented as you want and it will be wasted. Conversely you can be dumb as a stump and still do well as long as others are looking out for you. In this way the rich look after their own. They made the system and they know how to use it to their advantage. Who knows you could even become president?  ::whistle::

On a good day I think that the system is capable of being reformed, but then I give my head a shake and tell myself to wise up. The only good government will come when Jesus returns.

Offline admin

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #151 on: Fri Dec 14, 2007 - 09:04:59 »
Dunamite,

I was reading the other day about wealthy people and how their minds work. The story interviewed millionaires and there were several things that stuck out including that they were often times working several jobs instead of just one, that they were self motivated instead of waiting to be told what to do, and, oddly enough, the majority of the "super wealthy" (I don't remember the number for this but Bill Gates and Warren Buffet were both on the list) came from very poor families. The rich did not "look after them." According to the story, they knew what it was like to do without and worked harder than the average person to make sure they had plenty.

Secondly, you talk about the rich looking after their own as if it's a bad thing. If I work all my life to earn money (and regardless of what anyone says, the vast majority of the time a large income takes a large amount of work)... but if I work all my life to earn money, I have every right to do what I want with it because I traded part of my life, time and effort for it. If I want to give it to my children, grandchildren or friend==that's my right. You can call it "looking after your own," but what parent would not feed their child or want to have in inheritance for them? The Bible talked about giving an inheritance as a good thing.

In America, if you apply yourself and work hard, you can go far. I was raised in a poor environment and now I'm not. How? Well, I didn't have any rich people looking out for me, so I worked while other people slept or played video games. Capitalism simply places the decision of how much money you make on YOU instead of letting some dictator or king decide how much people have. It's the best system on earth.
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 14, 2007 - 12:23:37 by admin »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #152 on: Fri Dec 14, 2007 - 09:16:17 »
manna to you admin

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #153 on: Sat Dec 15, 2007 - 11:26:24 »
Concerning wealth and people working hard to become rich, I don't believe there is anything at all wrong in wanting to work hard and be wealthy. When Solomon asked for wisdom, God chose to give him even more and one of those things was wealth. The Bible actually called it a blessing (that God blessed him with great wealth).

Here's a quote from Dave Ramsey about that:

"It is absolutely okay for a Christian to want to be a millionaire, because as Christians we know that no matter how much we have, we own nothing. We are simply managers of the resources God has give us. If we can manage God's money, whether $100 or $1 million, we are okay."

Remember, it's the "love" of money that is the root of evil. Working hard to earn a lot and enjoying the fruits of your labor is fine if you keep money in its proper perspective and don't love it. Love is for people. And just because some people do love money, that doesn't ruin it for the rest of us.

In capitalism, there is no "piece of the pie." The pie is the same size for everyone and we all can cut a slice out of it if we work very hard and apply ourselves. You see, a very rich person is not going to bury his money in a hole in the ground. He's going to invest it so that start-up companies can use it to employee themselves and others, start his own businesses which hire employees so that they can have some of it and save it in banks where they can loan it out for people to buy homes. He'll also use that money to buy food, have fun, by insurance, build a house, a car--all things that put money in the hands of other people.

Capitalism gives us all a chance to be as wealthy as we wish and it spreads money around to those who choose to offer something to their fellow man (person) that merits another person giving what they have worked hard to earn in exchange.

It sure beats a king or dictator deciding what he/she thinks you can/should live on or deserve!
« Last Edit: Sat Dec 15, 2007 - 23:22:37 by admin »

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #154 on: Sat Dec 15, 2007 - 11:49:56 »
In capitalism, there is no "piece of the pie."

Through investment and hard work, EVERYONE can have a bigger piece of pie by making a bigger pie.

Offline Dunamite

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #155 on: Fri Dec 21, 2007 - 09:16:25 »
Dunamite,

I was reading the other day about wealthy people and how their minds work. The story interviewed millionaires and there were several things that stuck out including that they were often times working several jobs instead of just one, that they were self motivated instead of waiting to be told what to do, and, oddly enough, the majority of the "super wealthy" (I don't remember the number for this but Bill Gates and Warren Buffet were both on the list) came from very poor families. The rich did not "look after them." According to the story, they knew what it was like to do without and worked harder than the average person to make sure they had plenty.

Secondly, you talk about the rich looking after their own as if it's a bad thing. If I work all my life to earn money (and regardless of what anyone says, the vast majority of the time a large income takes a large amount of work)... but if I work all my life to earn money, I have every right to do what I want with it because I traded part of my life, time and effort for it. If I want to give it to my children, grandchildren or friend==that's my right. You can call it "looking after your own," but what parent would not feed their child or want to have in inheritance for them? The Bible talked about giving an inheritance as a good thing.

In America, if you apply yourself and work hard, you can go far. I was raised in a poor environment and now I'm not. How? Well, I didn't have any rich people looking out for me, so I worked while other people slept or played video games. Capitalism simply places the decision of how much money you make on YOU instead of letting some dictator or king decide how much people have. It's the best system on earth.
You miss my point. There will be no capitalism in Heaven. Capitalism is based on inequality. Inequality comes about when some people take more than their share. Furthermore they expand this by taking control of the political, economic and judicial process to give them the right to exploit others.

Edited for rules violation.
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 26, 2007 - 19:13:30 by admin »

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #156 on: Wed Dec 26, 2007 - 16:00:21 »
You don't know there won't be capitalism in Heaven. Heaven will be a city on the new earth that will be a restoration of Eden and you don't know there won't be capitalism there.

And you are completely wrong. Capitalism does not come about because someone "takes more than their fair share." Who says we are all entitled to an equal share? Or a share at all? If I sit on my butt all day, I'm not entitled to doodily.

If you and I were the last two men on earth and I picked more apples for myself because I was faster at picking apples or because you were sleeping in your cave, then I deserved more apples. The same is true today. If what you do provides more value to society, you are rewarded differently. If I want to pay $10 for someone's service, but $15 for yours because I believe you will do a better job, not only is it my right to do that, but it's your right to take more because people see your product/service as more valuable.

And it is most certainly my right to try to make a bigger, better and faster widget than the other guys to try to earn more money. If you want the government to pay everyone equal no matter what they do or how hard they work, please, go to communist China. You speak highly of it, so please go there if our system is so bad.

There very well could be curency in Heaven by the way. We read about rewards and that some will receive greater rewards and some will receive lesser rewards (just like in Hell the Bible says some will receive harsher punishments). I believe Heaven will be a city on the New Earth. And there, we might just be rewarded based on our contributions and responsibilities. We might even have currency. The Bible says the love of money is the root of evil, not having it or providing a better service to earn more than the guy who's service is not as good.

You know...I hear communist China is nice this time of year. Perhaps you should visit. And then...maybe move there since you don't like the free market.

Offline Dunamite

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #157 on: Sun Dec 30, 2007 - 10:24:04 »
Dunamite,

I was reading the other day about wealthy people and how their minds work. The story interviewed millionaires and there were several things that stuck out including that they were often times working several jobs instead of just one, that they were self motivated instead of waiting to be told what to do, and, oddly enough, the majority of the "super wealthy" (I don't remember the number for this but Bill Gates and Warren Buffet were both on the list) came from very poor families. The rich did not "look after them." According to the story, they knew what it was like to do without and worked harder than the average person to make sure they had plenty.

Secondly, you talk about the rich looking after their own as if it's a bad thing. If I work all my life to earn money (and regardless of what anyone says, the vast majority of the time a large income takes a large amount of work)... but if I work all my life to earn money, I have every right to do what I want with it because I traded part of my life, time and effort for it. If I want to give it to my children, grandchildren or friend==that's my right. You can call it "looking after your own," but what parent would not feed their child or want to have in inheritance for them? The Bible talked about giving an inheritance as a good thing.

In America, if you apply yourself and work hard, you can go far. I was raised in a poor environment and now I'm not. How? Well, I didn't have any rich people looking out for me, so I worked while other people slept or played video games. Capitalism simply places the decision of how much money you make on YOU instead of letting some dictator or king decide how much people have. It's the best system on earth.
James 5:  1Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. 2Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter. 6You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you.

You make a good point about people coming from humble beginnings and becoming successful. I will leave your examples of Gates and Buffett unchallenged for now. I know how Gates made his billions, but know little of Warren Buffet's humble origins.

You are making some huge leaps of faith. First you assume that it is a level playing field and that the rules are equal and unbiased. Second you assume that you can become rich without oppressing others and engaging in unethical practices.

I will take the milieu in which most of your readers operate, the U.S. as an example. How many people have tried to live on the current minimum wage? Have you tried to feed and clothe a family and put a roof over your head on this wage? Someone starting out on a minimum wage cannot get ahead. They have no benefits and must work long hours, often having more than one job to get ahead.

Take two children, both equally intelligent. One is born into a family of privilege and another is born into poverty. If the system is equal and fair then they should have the same chance of making it by virtue of their own intelligence and skills.

Unfortunately, the one born into a life of privilege has a long head start. He has role models, he has books in his home, he has lessons for everything, he has good nourishment, he has a quiet room of his own to study in, he has someone to urge him to achieve, he has connections to get his first good job, he has universities knocking at his door because his parents are benefactors of the university, he has good healthcare if he gets sick and can afford to miss work while he convalesces.

I am not saying that he does not deserve these things. I am saying that he has a head start. The system guarantees his success. Even if he is useless, he will get a job using his family connections. If he gets in trouble with the law, he will get a good lawyer who will get him off without a record. If he is drafted he will not be sent to serve in combat, but will get a cushy job somewhere out of the way. If he wants to get into business, his daddy's friends will set him up and if he is a failure they will bail him out. If he enters politics, he will have the right people to endorse him. His way is paved and pre-determined.

So the system is not as fair as it could be. Everyone could be guaranteed a fair working wage. Everyone could have access to good housing. Everyone could have health care and drug plans. Everyone could have access to post-secondary education. I am not talking about communism. I am talking about within our existing structure. These things exist in Europe and to a lesser degree in Canada and they are not communist countries.

The system benefits when the most able students are given a chance to succeed. The system benefits when people have a decent wage. Families are healthier, happier and better able to deal with difficulties. Countries that spend more on public housing have no slums and ghettos. Countries that have more of a social safety net spend less on crime prevention. They have lower incarceration levels and recidivism is lower. Violent crime is lower in countries which have strong guns laws and have programs to combat drug addiction.

When you cut programs for the poor, you pay a higher price in the end. It costs more to house a criminal, than it does to house a family in public housing. This is to say nothing of how much safer people feel in their own cities. There is no price that can be put on that.

Capitalism is exploitive by its very nature. It is based on creating classes of haves and have nots. The money that the rich get has to come from others. Unfairness is at its core. No one sets out to be poor. They become that way. If you don't become poor then someone else will. It is inevitable.

Capitalism rewards greed. In order to acquire capital one must obtain wealth. That is the goal. You cannot become a good capitalist unless you always want more. It is a mistake to believe that capitalists create wealth. They merely redistribute what already exists. In reality all workers own their own labor and the results of their labor. The capitalist buys that labor by artificially creating a market for it. I say artificially because he sets the terms. He and his fellow capitalists create unemployment so that labor costs are kept as low as possible. They create opportunity in some places, but take it away in others. It is a myth that it is a free market where services are traded freely. These decisions are usually made at a very high level, national or international, by bankers and capitalist elite. They keep the destiny of the nation in their hands and hold politicians in their pockets.

One could argue that capitalists can be good citizens and give back to the community, but even if this could be demonstrated it still does not change the nature of capitalism or the capitalist. He got ahead by taking away from others.

America is more myth than reality. You say that if you work hard you can get ahead, but some people need to work hard and others do not. It takes an industrious working class to keep the capitalists in business. Without them the capitalists would fail. They keep the illusion alive so that the workers will not lose hope. We all live under the fallacy that we can get ahead on our own. However, what really happens is that you get a good idea and the capitalists sit back waiting for their opportunity to take it from you. They buy ideas, just as they buy people. If you work hard you may be noticed and promoted to a higher level. You are coopted. This is the way the system works. People are just a commodity to the people at the top.

My views may seem unduly skeptical, but they conform to my religious views. If Satan is active in this world, and I believe that he is, then he will go where the power and money is. If America is at the top of the world, then you can be assured that Satan is active in America. If corporations are where the power resides, then you can be assured that Satan is on the board of every company.

1 John 2: 15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.

Blessings,
Dunamite

P.S. I write these things not to advocate any one political system. I see all political systems as being corrupt. I see economics systems such as capitalism as being particularly corrupt. There is evil, but Satan does not want to see it. He disguises things in such a way that we will buy into it. We can get sucked into thinking that the status quo is okay. We are being anesthetized by Satan when we cease to see his evil. Patriotism for a country is wrong if it clouds our judgment. Obedience is wrong if it is blind.

I could be accused of supporting communism, but that would be wrong. If we lived in a communist country then I would oppose it. To me it isn't a question of one being wrong and the other right. This is too simplistic. I defend communism in so far as its ideals are positive. The same ideals of giving as much as you can and taking only what you needed existed in the early church. You really can't argue against the ideals unless you are against what the church stood for. In practice it has been a disaster.

We live in a capitalist world. To live in a capitalist country with immense social and economic problems and not blame the underlying economics for any of it is wrong. Most apologists for capitalism are self serving. They have gained and so are able to justify in their own minds their own position viz a vis others. I am also of the elite, but reject elitism in general and the capitalist elite in particular. Otherwise I could not live out my Christianity with a clear conscience. I am not sure how others justify it, but I do not choose to.
« Last Edit: Sun Dec 30, 2007 - 12:04:45 by Dunamite »

Offline Dunamite

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #158 on: Sun Dec 30, 2007 - 12:16:06 »
In capitalism, there is no "piece of the pie."

Through investment and hard work, EVERYONE can have a bigger piece of pie by making a bigger pie.
Are you serious? We live on a planet with finite resources. Take a look around. There is unequal distribution everywhere. America takes more of the global pie. 5% of the population consumes a quarter of the world's resources. Over 50% of the world's population are poised to enter the marketplace in a big way. Do you propose giving up some of your over-consumption so that they can enjoy what you already do?

Making a bigger pie is a fallacy. If you believe this then you are fooling yourself and it will come back to bite you when others are taking from your share. China was our job ghetto now. It has few labor protection and health protection standards. We used to practice capitalism this way, but we have merely shifted the problem elsewhere. When China becomes too expensive the jobs will go elsewhere and someone else will suffer so that the Chinese can live high on the hog. And so it goes.

We are building a house of cards that is like an immense pyramid scheme. There are winners an losers, but in the end someone has to lose. Pyramid schemes are illegal with good reason. Some day it will come crashing to the ground and your world will go with it. It is in the cards or more correctly, in the books of Daniel and Revelations. We are destroying the world. I get it. Some don't. They are too busy on their squirrel wheels trying to get ahead to see it.

None of us is free of guilt. The world is going down the tubes and none of us will escape intact, unless Jesus comes to end the insanity. We can take confidence in only that. All of the rest is wasted effort.

I have used more metaphors than necessary. Suffice it to say, the world is a mess and we are part of the problem. A bigger part than we sometimes care to admit.

Blessings,
Dunamite

Offline patriciaredstone

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #159 on: Sun Dec 30, 2007 - 19:40:57 »
"They call it the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it" -George Carlin. I love that! But not because the American Dream is impossible to achieve. I know several people who have come up from poverty and have achieved wealth. I love that quote because abundance isn't as great as some of the poor think it is. Wealth comes with problems ... problems that cost you time ... lots of time. Time is not money ... it's life. And life is all you really have. I don't mean to say that poverty isn't miserable. It is. But I've seen that wealth is just a higher form of poverty.

Offline william7

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #160 on: Sat Jan 05, 2008 - 16:20:33 »
Christian Communism is a worthy topic of study in my opinion. Didn't Jesus teach it and His disciples along with the early Christian Church in Acts practice it? Matthew19:20-27; Acts 2:44-45; 4:32-35.

I believe the only reason communism hasn't succeeded is because it hasn't been done correctly. Atheists, tyrants, and pagans seem to screw it up every time.

There's an interesting discussion going on at the Immortality Institute (ImmInst.org) in their religion subforum in a thread entitled Christian Communism II about the merits of Christian Communism and its potential to solve the problem of the technological singularity and to make it possible to live out radically extended lifespans just as the Bible prophesies for the Millennium and beyond. Isaiah 65:20-25; Revelation 21:3-4.

May be serious Christians should consider living communally and reaping the benefits of living life simply without material possessions. It certainly would solve a lot of problems to do so.



Links removed per Rule 3.3....must have 20 total posts before linking.
« Last Edit: Sat Jan 05, 2008 - 21:04:24 by william7 »

Offline Dunamite

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #161 on: Tue Jan 08, 2008 - 09:56:16 »
Communism is not the answer, but neither is capitalism. Jesus will bring about fairness when he returns. Until that time we will have to live in an unfair world. However, Christians should not compromise their values in order to exist in this world.

Satan rules the world. His fate is sealed, but until he is bound and put away he continues to infest us with his plots and schemes. If there is power and influence to be had, then Satan is bound to be in the middle of it. If he is in the middle of it, then you can be sure that he uses deception and guile to lull us to sleep and get our defenses down.

Communism, may be a scourge to many of you, but it is too obvious for Satan. I am sure that he was involved in communist dictatorships, if there was power to be had, and evil to do. But, I am mainly concerned with more insidious things.

If you think that Satan does not wield power in western democracies, then you do not understand the enemy and how he works. Satan wants global control. Name one corporation that does not want to be huge, powerful with global power. Just saying these things do not make them so. But the questions need to be asked.

I see inequality in capitalism. I do not see it as being benign in any way. I see it as being exploitive. I see it as centralizing wealth. I see it as creating classes or rich and poor, haves and have nots. I see the gap between rich and poor as an ever widening gulf. I see rich person exploiting poor and rich nation exploiting poor nation. These are gross simplifications. What is actually happening is very complex. There are no simple solutions.

I see this things as a professional, who came from working class parents himself. I put myself through university and raised a family. I understand both sides of the debate, having lived them. My problem is that I am a Christian, living a privileged life, in a clean, safe, prosperous country. I cannot reconcile my having what I have or even what my own countrymen have, based on global inequality.

I have paid lots of taxes over the years. Unlike many people, I do not resent them. I think that I should pay even more taxes. I think that others need a break and I do not care if it is at my expense. I think that if I only give from my excess and it does not hurt then it isn't really giving. I am speaking only for myself.

For the Christian, justifying wealth and privilege is indefensible. We can try, but there is too much scripture against it. We will all stand before God one day, and our life of excess and privilege will come back to bite us. I know this because Jesus' concerns were for the poor, the neglected and the sick. And Jesus will be my judge. It will do me no good for him to melt my heart of stone then. I want it done now.

Indulge me if you will. Ignore me if you want. But I will not be silent. If I am silenced here, I will go elsewhere. I have received personal messages suggesting that I am out of line from the moderator. I do not want to rain on anyone's parade. But if your objective is to continue to bash communism one-sidedly and ignore what is happening in your own backyard, that is your business. My purpose is to deal with injustice and to call things as I see them. Ironically this is the only board which I have run afoul on on the four boards that I am active on.

Perhaps this message will draw the censor's ire as did previous ones. I hope not. Not for me, but for you. I am convicted that God wants to use the internet for his purposes. This board is a blessing to all. I am thankful for the opportunity to participate and do not resent criticism at all. If I am wrong then I expect to be told so. I do not presume to be right in all things. God gave us all brains to think with and the Holy Spirit to help us to discern. I ask only that you use what God has given us.

Dissent is essential to uphold freedom and democratic values. America came into being as a result of dissent and in these times dissent is being silenced. I find this curious. If I am a crackpot then my views will convince no one. If I am spreading false teaching then my lies will catch up with me. If I speak the truth then, it should not be stopped.

I say these things respectfully and with Christian love.

Blessings,
Dunamite

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #162 on: Thu Jan 10, 2008 - 08:31:04 »
Dunamite,

I have no doubt that your intentions are good.  However, I disagree with you.  I believe that a free market economy is a fundamental human right.  That is, I have more confidence in Dunamite than I do those who want to rule Dunamite.  The purpose of government is to protect folks from force and fraud.

From the libertarian party platform, here is something I agree with, to the letter:

Since governments, when instituted, must not violate individual rights, we oppose all interference by government in the areas of voluntary and contractual relations among individuals. People should not be forced to sacrifice their lives and property for the benefit of others. They should be left free by government to deal with one another as free traders; and the resultant economic system, the only one compatible with the protection of individual rights, is the free market.

Offline Dunamite

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #163 on: Fri Jan 18, 2008 - 12:05:42 »
Dunamite,

I have no doubt that your intentions are good.  However, I disagree with you.  I believe that a free market economy is a fundamental human right.  That is, I have more confidence in Dunamite than I do those who want to rule Dunamite.  The purpose of government is to protect folks from force and fraud.

From the libertarian party platform, here is something I agree with, to the letter:

Since governments, when instituted, must not violate individual rights, we oppose all interference by government in the areas of voluntary and contractual relations among individuals. People should not be forced to sacrifice their lives and property for the benefit of others. They should be left free by government to deal with one another as free traders; and the resultant economic system, the only one compatible with the protection of individual rights, is the free market.

My intentions are good. I realize that my message is a stretch for most people. I feel it is well founded in scripture. Most people who embrace capitalism do not see it as evil. They are busy raising families and doing what they feel is right. However, this only makes it more insidious in my eyes.

We can hate communism because its evil is obvious, but Satan does not just do the obvious. He likes to use subterfuge and catch us with our guard down.

In the end times, the Beast will control capitalism. He will govern who can buy or sell. The free market if there is such a thing will not exist. I see this as already happening. I see capitalism doing what communism has failed to do. Corporations are global in their outreach. Their goal is world wide domination. What we refuse to accept from communism we embrace under capitalism. We are being propagandized by private media in the hands of corporations, yet do not see it as propaganda. We think that we have choice. We can turn it off. Can we? Where don't you see advertising?

Government is being transformed by the corporate agenda. National borders are being erased and nations are forming into trade blocs. These are because the national agenda is the corporate agenda. World government is coming in the form of world capitalism.

These things are all confirmed in prophecy. We will have large blocs, but they won't be communism. They will be dominated by Coke or Pepsi, McDonald's or Burger King.

The implications of what I am saying are huge. I am not trying to scare anyone. I am asking only that people turn on their brains and think. It is time for a reality check.

Most people will ignore what I am saying and go about being good consumers. Some will continue to pimp for world wide capitalism. This is their prerogative.  God gave us free will and scripture tells us how to discern truth.

We have the right to be wrong. I think that I am right and that it isn't too late. I know that the world cannot be reformed. People can change, though. They do not have to be the same today as they were yesterday.

I do not wish to defend communism. My initial postings were based on the ideal and the desire to be fair and reasonable. Reality is something else. I could never excuse what is happening in China. However, I don't see communism as being the threat. China's communist days are numbered. They too will be caught up in the allure of capitalism.

I don't see this as a left vs. right struggle. It isn't ideology that I am concerned with but spirituality. We are in a battle of cosmic proportions. Each person has to choose for him or herself. We are under attack. I am certain of this. My biggest concern is what is happening in our neighborhoods, right under our noses. I see Satan as not respecting national borders. He will use our own weakness against us, wherever it can be found. This isn't something that is happening in the future. It has been happening for centuries. Capitalism is the common denominator. It has facilitated Satan's work because it is so pervasive and attractive. It involves money and power. Two weaknesses of mankind. It is also about accumulation and centralization of wealth and power. This makes it more attractive to the Enemy.

I thank you for kind words about my intentions. I try to keep them pure, but it is a challenge for all of us.

Blessings,
Dunamite

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #164 on: Fri Jan 18, 2008 - 16:29:49 »
The only problems I have with a free market economy are usury(charging interest) and gambling (stock market).  All production needs to come from actual work instead of making money off of other peoples money.

Both things were forbidden in OT Israel for reasons that are so apparent to me now.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #165 on: Sat Jan 19, 2008 - 18:54:16 »
What about in the NT in the parable of the talents where the  master chastised the one talent servant for not at least putting the talent in the bank and earn some interest?

I don't believe anything is inherently wrong with earning a return on an investment. Scripturally, farmers risk all to gain a 30 or 60 or 100 fold yield.

Offline Dunamite

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #166 on: Tue Jan 22, 2008 - 11:52:38 »
What about in the NT in the parable of the talents where the  master chastised the one talent servant for not at least putting the talent in the bank and earn some interest?

I don't believe anything is inherently wrong with earning a return on an investment. Scripturally, farmers risk all to gain a 30 or 60 or 100 fold yield.
The fact that we invest or that the Bible asks us to be wise in our dealings does not change anything. We need to work and earn our daily bread. God blesses us and provides for us. That isn't the issue. It is how you choose to do it and how you practice what you say you believe.

My criticisms are based on the ethics which cause Christians to compromise their faith and values. The subject is communism and Christianity. I have tried to make a case for an even greater threat.

When we are attacked by Satan, it is effective because we let down our guard. We are to be wary and watchful. If he gains a foothold he will continue to worm his way in and corrupt us and all that we hold dear. The danger is that this has already happened.

The world is changing, but not in the way that I foresaw when I was growing up. We had air raid sirens in my neighborhood. We were taught to fear the commie hordes. We sent our young men to die in Korea and Vietnam to stop the domino effect and prevent worldwide communism. Now the cold war is all but over. Russia has many millionaires and billionaires. I suppose we should all cheer. I don't. It is too soon.

China is still a communist nation. However, it has a stock market. It is a one party state, but there is an emerging capitalism. Communism will be defeated there too, but not be virtue of an armed struggle. Now we are given other enemies to fear. Terrorist hordes threat to undo us and destroy what we have built. The consistency here is in the message, not in the enemy. There will always be some terrible enemy, imagined or real.

However, how can we be sure that we aren't the problem and not them? We are told that we are on the side of good and they on evil, but who is telling us these things. The Bible does not say that communism is bad. We heard that from those who know how to push our buttons. The Bible tells us that killing is bad, but it does not say that terrorism is bad. There is evil there, but perhaps it goes on both sides.

One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. The Americans used terrorism during the Revolutionary War. Civilians were killed on both sides to incite terror. The loyalists ended up in leaving because their lives and property were in danger had they stayed. i have no doubt that if America was occupied by a foreign power as Iraq is that Americans would fight back using any means available.

Nelson Mandella said that he was once regarded as a terrorist, but now he is regarded as a hero. It is all relative.

There is something behind all acts of violence. There is a beneficiary whenever violence proliferates. It does not matter who commits the violence, Satan benefits. It stands to reason that he is working in the hearts of our soldiers and our leaders because he is active in our own lives. He is tempting us and leading us all astray. Nobody is exempt. Least of all capitalism which is taking over the world and modifying the way nation states function.

Compare what is happening now and what happens in the last days. The signs are there. All we need is a rising dictator and things will be complete. The power is already there and the structures are emerging quickly. We just don't choose to recognize the danger and that is a mistake.

Blessings,
Dunamite

Offline spurly

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #167 on: Tue Jan 22, 2008 - 18:20:50 »
The only problems I have with a free market economy are usury(charging interest) and gambling (stock market).  All production needs to come from actual work instead of making money off of other peoples money.

Both things were forbidden in OT Israel for reasons that are so apparent to me now.


It amazes me that people equate owning part of a business (purchasing stock) with gambling.  If that is the case no one should ever start a business because it is gambling that your business venture will succeed.

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #168 on: Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 15:20:27 »
It amazes me that people equate owning part of a business (purchasing stock) with gambling.  If that is the case no one should ever start a business because it is gambling that your business venture will succeed.

Well said, Spurly. 

Folks, our economy thrives when investors are willing to fund companies that can better serve our society.  If Christians treat purchasing shares of a company solely as gambling, they are not seeing the bigger picture - investors contribute to developing companies that deliver the latest technology and services that make this society better.  Even more evident, such companies that receive the funding will EMPLOY more people - people like you and me who need jobs to buy goods and services - the end result is a stimulated economy.

The bottom line: invest in companies that truly make a positive impact on this world and you will be rewarded.  Anyone that thinks Venture capitalists are just some greedy gambling jerks should take a step back and actually observe the wonderful things that have produced fruit from such investments.  I live in Silicon Valley and I am humbled by the advancements made here.  Much of these accomplishments that make the Information Age what it is cannot have been done without some very smart investments.

First of all, only the IPO or subsequent stock offerings are actually funding the companies.  After that, it's all speculation and gambling by making money off of money.

Say I go right now and purchace 500 shares of Microsoft stock.. right then I either made money off of someone elses misfortune or paid a premium and made someone rich... NONE of my money ever goes back to fund the company.

The only thing an escalated price does for a company is let them offer fewer shares for more money if they need to raise additional capital.

And you know what?.. on the books of the company, the stock is only ever shown as a liability for the original purchase price.. the market value is irrevalent.

So the entire thing about funding a company is horse hockey 99% of the time.


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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #169 on: Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 16:08:27 »
I would rather see direct investments in companies, where the company sets the stock prices and delivers returns based on actual profits.  All stock can only be traded based on the set price of the company.

And horse hockey was a term i first heard in the M*A*S*H* TV show.. by Col. Potter.

Tantor

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #170 on: Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 16:10:19 »
I would rather see direct investments in companies, where the company sets the stock prices and delivers returns based on actual profits.  All stock can only be traded based on the set price of the company.  Where companies are actually beholding to their stockholders and CEO's and Directors can be held responsible personally for their decisions.

And horse hockey was a term i first heard in the M*A*S*H* TV show.. by Col. Potter.

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #171 on: Fri Feb 08, 2008 - 11:14:01 »
I would rather see direct investments in companies, where the company sets the stock prices and delivers returns based on actual profits.  All stock can only be traded based on the set price of the company.

And horse hockey was a term i first heard in the M*A*S*H* TV show.. by Col. Potter.

Nice.

I also liked "buffalo bagels". MASH was a great show.

Offline j miller

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Re: Communism vs. Christianity
« Reply #172 on: Tue Jun 24, 2008 - 14:07:06 »
The inclinations of those that would shirk man's natural autonomy in
favor of central government(communism) go back as far as when the Israelites demanded an earthly king. 

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Re: RE: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #173 on: Sun Jul 13, 2008 - 14:31:54 »
Any political system will work (communism, socialism, democracy, empire dictatorship) as long as there are good leaders who put the people needs first.

The problem is that the leaders are not good and the people needs take a back seat to personal power and glory.

I vote republican because their agenda takes into consideration people like me.  The demon-crates have nothing to offer people like me.

I am not a minority
I am not a homosexual
I am against abortion
I believe in the freedom of religion
I believe in the right to keep and bear arms
I understand that diplomacy prevents war it doesn't win war.

The demon-crates have nothing to offer so why vote for them?


VERY WELL PUT!  ::clappingoverhead::

Offline cyberella

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Re: RE: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #174 on: Tue Aug 05, 2008 - 11:29:33 »


OBAMA MOCKS THE BIBLE


GO TO YOUTUBE, SEARCH 'SERMON ON THE MOUNT':
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Marx: 'Religion is the opiate of the masses....tear it down and you control them'.

"AND FIGHT THEM UNTIL THERE IS NO PERSECUTION , AND RELIGION SHALL BE ONLY FOR ALLAH 2:193


"ISLAM ISN'T IN AMERICA TO BE EQUAL TO ANY OTHER FAITH, BUT TO BECOME DOMINANT. The Koran ... should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth. Everthing we need to know is in the Koran. We don't need to look somewhere else." OMAR M. AHMAD, CHAIRMAN OF CAIR,the mainsteam Muslim advocacy group.

Quote from Barack Obama’s book, Dreams Of My Father:
"THE PERSON WHO MADE ME PROUDEST OF ALL, THOUGH, WAS MY [half brother], ROY..HE CONVERTED TO ISLAM".

From ‘Dreams of my Father’, "IN INDONESIA, I SPEND TWO YEARS AT A MUSLIM SCHOOL" "..I STUDIED THE KORAN.."

From ‘Audacity of Hope: "LOLO (Obama’s step father) FOLLOWED ISLAM...."I LOOKED TO LOLO FOR GUIDANCE".

From ‘The Audacity Of Hope, "I WILL STAND WITH THEM (MUSLIMS) SHOULD THE POLITICAL WINDS OF WAR SHIFT IN AN UGLY DIRECTION.."


From The Audacity Of Hope, "WE ARE NO LONGER JUST A CHRISTIAN NATION, we are also a Jewish nation, a MUSLIM NATION, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers."

http://www.examiner.com/a-536474~_Trapped_between_two_worlds_.html
http://www.examiner.com/a-534540~Can_a_past_of_Islam_change_the_path_to_president_for_Obama_.html?cid=dc-article-obama





 

     
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