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Author Topic: Communism vs. Christianity  (Read 117811 times)

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Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #135 on: November 29, 2007, 06:54:29 AM »
Jack works for the mob, but he gets these "tokens of service" from the don, so he must be servicing his fellow man right?  How about the expatriate who works for a company in Pakistan gathering intelligence on better ways to construct nuclear weapons.  That's a service to mankind right there, for which he gets lots of tokens of service and doesn't even pay taxes.  If I invest my money in a drug trafficking operation, and I get it back double what I invested because I was able to facilitate bringing many tonnes of cocaine into the US, was I part of a great service to mankind?  It was an investment though!  Investments are pure!  So is all work that gives me money, right?

No, work that violates the human right of another, that right being to be free of force and fraud, is not right.
taller, better looking and smarter . . .

They turned me loose from the nervous hospital.  Said I was well.  Mmm hmm.

Suffering for your beliefs is called faithfulness, making others suffer for your beliefs is called being a jerk.

His cross, like the ark in the wilderness, is the center around which his people are to encamp; so that they cannot separate into factions, or withdraw from each other, without retiring at the same time from the presence of the cross.

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #135 on: November 29, 2007, 06:54:29 AM »

Online Jaime

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #136 on: November 29, 2007, 06:59:08 AM »
Yeah.  That's what's typical.  And because that happens, all investing is eeeevvvviiiiiilllll.  Straw man.

Wow, more words being put in my mouth.
Nope.  And it's still a straw man argument.


I suppose I'm unfamiliar with the term...  why the short phrases and lack of explanation when saying you're not putting words in my mouth?


The Straw Man Argument
So that the record of history is absolutely crystal clear. That there is no alternative way, so far discovered, of improving the lot of the ordinary people that can hold a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by a free enterprise system. - Milton Friedman

The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem. - Milton Friedman

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #136 on: November 29, 2007, 06:59:08 AM »

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #137 on: November 29, 2007, 07:02:41 AM »
And it's a straw man because it was an easy set up.  Present the mob and cartel argument because no one's going to argue that it should be defended, thus an easy knock down and win.  Only problem is, the illegal shadow economies were not the discussion, and are outside of our free enterprise system, and not at all relevant to the discussion of investing, since they are not represented on the NYSE, Nasdaq, Nikkei, or in mutual funds, etc.
“Only he who believes is obedient and only he who is obedient believes.”
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Offline Brian Kelley

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #138 on: November 29, 2007, 10:18:52 AM »
And it's a straw man because it was an easy set up.  Present the mob and cartel argument because no one's going to argue that it should be defended, thus an easy knock down and win.  Only problem is, the illegal shadow economies were not the discussion, and are outside of our free enterprise system, and not at all relevant to the discussion of investing, since they are not represented on the NYSE, Nasdaq, Nikkei, or in mutual funds, etc.
Had you explained this, I might have been able to continue.  But short phrases intended to not let me continue to defend my position aren't any better than your "straw man".  I don't see the investments as being different, but as you do, I'll go to the Wall Street version of investment.  Are there not corrupt companies there?  Have there not been scandals and thefts and illegitimate practices in those companies?  If I invest in the company that produces equipment for performing abortions, am I doing a service to mankind?
It's not a matter of "all investments are good" or "all investing is eeeevvvviiiiiilllll."  I'm trying to point out that NOT all investing is good.  It's not everything or nothing.
Your Brother in Christ,

- Brian

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #138 on: November 29, 2007, 10:18:52 AM »
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Online Jaime

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #139 on: November 29, 2007, 10:25:06 AM »
And it's a straw man because it was an easy set up.  Present the mob and cartel argument because no one's going to argue that it should be defended, thus an easy knock down and win.  Only problem is, the illegal shadow economies were not the discussion, and are outside of our free enterprise system, and not at all relevant to the discussion of investing, since they are not represented on the NYSE, Nasdaq, Nikkei, or in mutual funds, etc.
Had you explained this, I might have been able to continue.  But short phrases intended to not let me continue to defend my position aren't any better than your "straw man".  I don't see the investments as being different, but as you do, I'll go to the Wall Street version of investment.  Are there not corrupt companies there?  Have there not been scandals and thefts and illegitimate practices in those companies?  If I invest in the company that produces equipment for performing abortions, am I doing a service to mankind?
It's not a matter of "all investments are good" or "all investing is eeeevvvviiiiiilllll."  I'm trying to point out that NOT all investing is good.  It's not everything or nothing.

Did anyone say it was?
So that the record of history is absolutely crystal clear. That there is no alternative way, so far discovered, of improving the lot of the ordinary people that can hold a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by a free enterprise system. - Milton Friedman

The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem. - Milton Friedman

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #139 on: November 29, 2007, 10:25:06 AM »



Offline Brian Kelley

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #140 on: November 29, 2007, 10:33:36 AM »
And it's a straw man because it was an easy set up.  Present the mob and cartel argument because no one's going to argue that it should be defended, thus an easy knock down and win.  Only problem is, the illegal shadow economies were not the discussion, and are outside of our free enterprise system, and not at all relevant to the discussion of investing, since they are not represented on the NYSE, Nasdaq, Nikkei, or in mutual funds, etc.
Had you explained this, I might have been able to continue.  But short phrases intended to not let me continue to defend my position aren't any better than your "straw man".  I don't see the investments as being different, but as you do, I'll go to the Wall Street version of investment.  Are there not corrupt companies there?  Have there not been scandals and thefts and illegitimate practices in those companies?  If I invest in the company that produces equipment for performing abortions, am I doing a service to mankind?
It's not a matter of "all investments are good" or "all investing is eeeevvvviiiiiilllll."  I'm trying to point out that NOT all investing is good.  It's not everything or nothing.

Did anyone say it was?

Mere Nick said that investment was inherently a service to mankind.  I was trying to say that was not always the case.
Your Brother in Christ,

- Brian

Online Jaime

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #141 on: November 29, 2007, 10:46:53 AM »
I didn't see the word always in his assertion. Of course investment in something like drug paraphenalia is not a service to mankind. let's loosen up guys, no need for 4 or 5 pages arguing over stuff like that.
So that the record of history is absolutely crystal clear. That there is no alternative way, so far discovered, of improving the lot of the ordinary people that can hold a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by a free enterprise system. - Milton Friedman

The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem. - Milton Friedman

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #142 on: November 29, 2007, 10:57:41 AM »
But short phrases intended to not let me continue to defend my position aren't any better than your "straw man". 
That was not the intention.  And I'll be as brief as I choose to be, thank you. 
“Only he who believes is obedient and only he who is obedient believes.”
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Offline Dave...

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #143 on: December 03, 2007, 12:58:59 PM »
The people defending communism on this thread do not understand what they are defending. I know this for a fact. The Christianity that is "flourishing" in the communist countries that is being allowed by the same government is socialism, not Christianity. We see the same thing happening here in the U.S. Yes, they use the name Jesus and can even quote some scripture, but the foundation of their beliefs are not Bible based, but grounded in secular humanist philosophy. Talk with them for five minutes and this becomes quite obvious.

Real Christianity, if it is in fact flourishing in any communist country, in any way shape or form, would be in spite of the persecution by these same governments, not because of it.

Socialism/communism has never worked, and never will. These are not just economic principles but complete world views. They never build, they only infect and destroy.

I'll debate any honest person in this. Be warned, if you have a pie in the sky idea of communism that you've been programmed to believe in the indoctrination camps called the public school system, I will shatter those false ideas.

Communist Goals (1963) Congressional Record--Appendix, pp. A34-A35
http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm

Dave
« Last Edit: December 03, 2007, 01:13:24 PM by Dave... »
"If God does not save men by truth, he certainly will not save them by lies. And if the old gospel is not competent to work a revival, then we will do without the revival." (CHS)

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #144 on: December 03, 2007, 10:11:38 PM »
The people defending communism on this thread do not understand what they are defending. I know this for a fact. The Christianity that is "flourishing" in the communist countries that is being allowed by the same government is socialism, not Christianity. We see the same thing happening here in the U.S. Yes, they use the name Jesus and can even quote some scripture, but the foundation of their beliefs are not Bible based, but grounded in secular humanist philosophy. Talk with them for five minutes and this becomes quite obvious.

Real Christianity, if it is in fact flourishing in any communist country, in any way shape or form, would be in spite of the persecution by these same governments, not because of it.

Socialism/communism has never worked, and never will. These are not just economic principles but complete world views. They never build, they only infect and destroy.

I'll debate any honest person in this. Be warned, if you have a pie in the sky idea of communism that you've been programmed to believe in the indoctrination camps called the public school system, I will shatter those false ideas.

Communist Goals (1963) Congressional Record--Appendix, pp. A34-A35
http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm

Dave


Exactly. Making the conclusion that just because Christianity has done well, underground in some communist countries doesn't mean that a communistic government stimulates or contributes to the growth of Christianity. Christianity can grow under most any circumstance and IN SPITE of many circumstances, but that doesn't mean that there's any reason to invite persecution and extreme government control.
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Offline Jimbob

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #145 on: December 04, 2007, 06:20:09 AM »
If Communism bread rampant underground Christianity, then why did the numbers of Christians in the Soviet Union fall like a rock during its 70 years of Communism?  And yes, I'm well aware there were underground churches in existence, but I've been there lived that.  They were few and far between.  Praise God they held on, but lets not write a revisionist history that says that an abusive, oppressive government was a "good for them."  That's naiveté to its fullest.
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Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #146 on: December 04, 2007, 06:56:25 AM »
If Communism bread rampant underground Christianity, then why did the numbers of Christians in the Soviet Union fall like a rock during its 70 years of Communism?  And yes, I'm well aware there were underground churches in existence, but I've been there lived that.  They were few and far between.  Praise God they held on, but lets not write a revisionist history that says that an abusive, oppressive government was a "good for them."  That's naiveté to its fullest.

Same goes for what some say about how Christianity has weathered the onslaught of Islamic oppression.
taller, better looking and smarter . . .

They turned me loose from the nervous hospital.  Said I was well.  Mmm hmm.

Suffering for your beliefs is called faithfulness, making others suffer for your beliefs is called being a jerk.

His cross, like the ark in the wilderness, is the center around which his people are to encamp; so that they cannot separate into factions, or withdraw from each other, without retiring at the same time from the presence of the cross.

Offline Dave...

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #147 on: December 04, 2007, 10:20:56 PM »
Here's one example that explains why "christianity" is allowed in Communist countries, while the real Christianity is being persecuted.

"Evangelical pastor Rick Warren has been invited to preach this summer to some 15,000 Christians in North Korea, a communist country infamous not only for its nuclear threats but also for its religious persecution.
http://www.newswithviews.com/PaulProctor/proctor96.htm

---------------------------------------
1. North Korea

For the fifth year in a row, North Korea heads the World Watch List as the worst violator of religious rights for Christians. Media attention was focused on the country in 2006 but nothing has changed for the North Korean people. The North Korean regime launched missiles and tested nuclear weapons in 2006, which meant a further increase of pressure in the country. We were able to trace more information, which indicated that more Christians were arrested in 2006 than in 2005. There are still many people in labor camps, and everyday life in North Korea is inhuman. Between 50,000 and 70,000 Christians are currently suffering in prison camps. Many of them are tortured. People are still putting their lives at stake by trying to flee to China. After crossing the border, several people have converted after coming into contact with Christians. The newborn Christians are very brave and return to North Korea to tell others about Jesus. Considering Christianity to be a tremendous threat to stability in the country, the North Korean government hunts Christians all over the country, especially those who try to return from China. Many of them were arrested, tortured and even killed. But amidst all the harshness in the country, the local Christians are dedicated to serving the local Body of Christ and are firmly standing strong during this period of relentless persecution.
http://sb.od.org/index.php?supp_page=wwl_top_ten&supp_lang=en

Kim Jong Il, who persecutes Christians daily feels absolutely no threat from Warren's watered down, socialized, methodical socialism that he calls Christianity. In fact, he wants it.

Why would Kim Jong Il feel it necessary to invite Warren?

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a "religious crutch." http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm

If the spreading of Christianity is inevitable in North Korea in this day and age, the greatest fear of communism, then the only option for Kim Jong Il is to poison it and steer it towards communist ideals, as is happening in U.S. with the new age movement.

In this Way, Warren's socialised gospel serves a great purpose for Kim Jong Il

The same thing is happening in China. Socialised, Government christianity has a gret purpose. Real Christianity is still being persecuted.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"In vain do some think that socialism is merely a theory of economics. No, socialism replaces everything with itself; it is founding its own religion. In the resolutions of the various socialist assemblies and the discourses of socialist leaders one finds clearly and definitely expressed the demand for a revolution in all human thought. "Socialism is not and cannot be a mere economic science, a question concerning the stomach only... In the final analysis, socialists are striving to bring about revolution throughout the entire juridical, moral, philosophical, and religious superstructure" (Vandervelde). "Is socialism merely an economic theory?," we read in the socialistic catechism of Bax and Kvelch; "In no way! Socialism envelops all the relations of human life." According to Bax, in religion socialism is expressed as atheistic humanism."

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism." --Nikita Khrushchev

"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas
"If God does not save men by truth, he certainly will not save them by lies. And if the old gospel is not competent to work a revival, then we will do without the revival." (CHS)

Offline Dunamite

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #148 on: December 11, 2007, 12:24:47 PM »
George Gilder was right when he said "Greed is an appetite for unneeded and unearned wealth and power.  The truly greedy seek comfort and security first.  They seek goods and clout they have not earned.  Because the best and safest way to gain unearned pay is to get the state to take it from others, greed leads, as by an invisible hand, toward ever more government action - to socialism, not capitalism."

What makes free market capitalism so wonderful?  It is an aristocracy of merit.  To prosper, you must serve.





I don't see ths as being true at all.  To prosper, you must make lucky investment choices.  Investment has no service in it whatsoever.  In fact, one of the main communist principles is a Biblical one:  If you don't work, you don't eat.  That sounds like exactly what you're looking for...
How is this different from gambling if "luck" is involved? In both investing and gambling there are no guarantees. In both cases knowledge improves your chances for success. Certainly some investment markets offer no better odds than putting you money on a spin of the roulette wheel.
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Offline Dunamite

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Re: Communism and Christianity
« Reply #149 on: December 11, 2007, 01:30:43 PM »
I think your interpreting the facts through your foregone conclusions.
We all filter things though our conscious mind. We form our worldview from our observations. This enables us to interpret the world and make sense of it.

We should be always check ourselves and periodically modify our worldview because as we age we change and of course the world is also constantly changing. I would be surprised if anyone had a static worldview.

I experienced a paradigm shift when I accepted Christ (25 years ago). I expected that this would color my perceptions and make me more conservative, but it didn't. If nothing it entrenched my left wing views. I could see the unfairness in the world and now I saw that Jesus had a heart for the weak, poor and down-trodden, like I did.

Many American Christians have bought into conservativism for reasons that escape me. They see Christ as a conservative while I see him as a radical. If he was conservative then the establishment surely would not have rejected him. When I read scripture I see Christ attacking the establishment of his day, the Sadducees, the Pharisees and the Sanhedrin. He attacked their self righteous hypocrisy, their uncaring attitude and self centered lifestyle.

I see conservatives today in that same place. They want to keep their traditions, their privilege and their way of life. They insulate themselves from the common people and have lost touch with reality. They see others in terms of their own reality. They view the common people as losers, deserving of what they have got out of life. They think that everyone can be like they are if only they worked harder. This of course is a great deseption which they try to keep alive.

God made enough to go around. He did not make people poor. He did not make others to want more that their neighbor. That comes from the human heart and temptations of Satan. We unequally distribute God's bounty. We set up systems of government and economics. We entrench in law the unfairness that comes from our desire to promote our interests over someone else's.  In God's world we will all be winners.

As a leftist, I think that we can right some of the wrongs. I think that the laws we have were made by the landed and the rich. They came out of the medieval era. They favor their position. Anything that the common man has got they have had to fight for and in many cases die for. I don't think that there is any rule that God made which gives the rich the right to exploit the poor.

I think that common people are the majority, but that the legal, economic and political systems were set in place long ago and that they guarantee the success of the privileged class. They have succeeded to create a fiction that there is no class system in America and that anyone by virtue of hard work can succeed. But to succeed is to lose the common touch and to become like them.

Mussolini said that "fascism should be correctly called corporatism". Living in a society which is based on corporate success is by his definition fascist. Corporations do not have a vote in a democracy, but by owning the media and by controlling the economy they get the only say that matters. They dictate who runs, who succeeds and ultimately who you will choose. They give media access and slant it in the same way that they do in a fascist state. They crown the next "Prince" in the way that would make Machiavelli.

Corporations control the the judicial system as well as the economic and political. Judges at the highest level are appointees of the political. Judges are chosen for their friendliness to the agenda of the administration which is friendly to the agenda of the corporate masters. Lower down judges are elected in the U.S., but the political process is marred because it gives preference to those who can raise the most money and are therefore friendliest to those with money, the wealthy, including those with the most money corporations.

Democracy is a delusion and a sham. It exists only to give legitimacy to the wealthy class. When we served our medieval masters we had no such delusions. We had few rights, but at least we know where we stood.

To the corporate masters it does not matter who is elected in the end. They know that whoever is elected will come hat in hand for money. They let the hopeful know where they stand and there is an unwritten contract that they will work within the parameters they set out. The candidate knows that failure to deliver is not an option for the corporate masters. It is therefore just a question of who is able to best sell themselves to the public.

I personally believe that there are even more insidious forces at work in all western democracies. I think there is a whole network of influential people functioning in all areas of expertise dedicated to a common purpose. I think that they are secretive and work behind the scenes for a common purpose. These people know who each other is and that is enough for them. We are not to know who they are, but you can count on one thing that if they are in a position of power then they are either directly involved or are being manipulated. As Christians we are told that Satan is the prince of this world. Centralization of wealth and power plays into his hands and we would be remiss if we discounted either his power or desire to manipulate the world.

Satan is subtle. He lures us and beguiles us. He uses illusion and deception as tools. It would be a mistake to think that democracy, communism  or capitalism is good in and of itself.

I challenge myself and it often takes me into places other people do not want to go. I can be accused of being alarmist or extreme, but I don't think that I can be accused of being ill-informed or asleep at the wheel. I do not buy into the party line and I probably won't because I think it is based on lies and deception. Until I know better I will keep my guard up.

Blessings,
Dunamite

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