The world is a very unfair place and the justice we get sometimes, is only by God's hand. Where i live they have changed some of the labor laws and have made it next to impossible for some technical people to work for a living. My husband's livelihood is threatened. His attitude, though is that if it cannot be that he works in this field, here...then God must have something else for him to do or somewhere else for him to go. This is a job he loves, but they make ridiculous laws, that not only hurt the hard working person, but also the consumer. God's justice is not man's. He puts us in places to suffer and creates hardship for us to grow. The flesh never likes it. I know I don't and I start complaining about my lot, but His love becomes more real to me through it. This is part of our salvation. Was Jesus treated fairly? Did He have His day in court? How did He respond? That does not mean we do not try to help others with injustice, because we should be doing that. We just need to realize nothing happens that God hasn't allowed. He knows each of us intimately and knows what might lead us astray if we were to have a life of ease. I do know there are those who hate me without cause...can you imagine those who are hated just for their skin color, when they had no say in it? And it is a constant in their life. God's is just and i thank Him for where He has put each one of us to learn to depend upon Him and His mercy...not the world's.

seekr

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (kmv @ Dec. 31 2002,11:22)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--](Son of a Preacher Man, you had me until you implied that the white male was now oppressed.  Please!)[/quote]
Kari,

I just noticed this.  I'm sorry I rubbed you the wrong way. I dig your posts and since this was the first post I ever made on this board consider my sweeping statement as folly.  I have read many of your posts and like to hear your side of things so when I saw this I wanted to respond.

I cannot speak for all, but will speak of me.  3 Companies and 1 Government agency, 10 years--I was very oppressed:  Denied advancement, pushed aside, pushed out, used as a pawn by those in "protected classes," and much much more.  Do I think turn about is fair play?  I suppose my progeny brought this on me, but it still doesn't make the myriad of things that happened to me right and they were based strictly on my race/gender.  I'm not going to give all the details, but please believe me as a brother in Christ that horrible things were done to me in the name of civil rights and AA.  

Now, do I really care anymore?  No.  I just hate to see somebody else go through the same.  I still believe AA was needed and needed for a very long time.  But, I still believe it's abused today and the time is coming soon that it must be done away with. I know what happened to me.

I have hope for my generation.  I think we are becoming more and more color-blind.  In fact, all the bad things that wrought on me were perpetrated by older people.

All that happened to me was just God forcing me to where he wanted me to go--the ministry.  In that way, I thank God for AA because without it I wouldn't be a preacher today.  :clap:  

I praise God for kicking me in the way I should go.

With loving respect,

SoaPMan

patricia -

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Winky, You must have copied my name off of a blacklist or something [:help:]   ... this is the first time I have made a comment about affirmative action in this forum.[/quote]

I don't think I mentioned you or quoted you...correct if my memory is failing here. I don't have any blacklists, I promise!

Wendy

Folks there is no such thing as a good answer to this question.

All I can offer is my gut feeling to this discussion.

When it comes to education race-based preferences don't bother me much.

The college environment is the last stop most people will have in the world of idealism. It is also where many of the ties are formed that set the stage for future business relationships.

To shape the incoming classes at universities to reflect the make-up of society is not a bad thing, especially at the elite private colleges and the so-called "flagship" land-grant state universities.

After graduation I prefer to let the best qualified person get the job.

Fate,

Thank you for your post. HOWEVER, Bill Gates did not make his money suppressing black people. He made it by developing products that were demanded by the world. There is nothing wrong with that and he doesn't owe anyone anything.

As far as saying that black people make up only about 3 percent of college attendance, would you please tell me where you found that information? If that is true, which I have no reason to believe it is not, then that would be about right seeing as how blacks make up about 12 percent of America. All 12 percent can't go to college, and the majority of that 12 percent are adults past college age. Of course blacks will be in the minority, they only make up 12 percent of the population.

And as far as your response to Arthro, his point was not that all blacks are making the big bucks in the NBA. His point was that we should make the NBA fairer. Have more white guys involved even if they aren't as skilled. They should be allowed in because they are white and we don't have enough white guys in the NBA. After all, isn't that what AA does? It says, "regardless of all your hard work, your qualifications, and (as Martin Luther King would say) the content of your character, we are going to hire based on race." That is called racism. Let me spell it for you again-- R-A-C-I-S-M.

It happened to my dad. He had been in the Air Force for 13 years. Bill Clinton was elected and downsized the military. My dad was offered a job at NASA in Huntsville, AL because of his experience and given early retirement with honors because of his achievements. However, after moving to Alabama, dad was told by a high-up at NASA that Affirmative Action had told them that they had to hire a black person. He said to my dad, "You are the most qualified, have the most experience, and would do the best job. The government is forcing us to hire a black man who is 23 years old and just out of college for this very important job."

So there you have it, my dad was hand picked because of what? OF WHAT?! The content of his character. The hard work that he had put in! The years of service. And when they found out he was white what happened? IT IS CALLED discrimination. NO QUESTIONS ABOUT IT!

But several have basically told me to just deal with it. Just deal with it. My family living in my grandparents basement!? My dad was jerked from a promised job. We were below the poverty level. My dad, as the true hard-working hero that he is, did not accept welfare. He got a paper route. He worked from 2 a.m. to 7 a.m. every day of the week with NO HOLIDAYS. NONE. That's right, no Christmas and no Saturdays or Sunday's off. He job hunted during the day. He did this for 3 years until he found a job where he worked during the day.

It's pitiful. It's evil. It's like the mob standing in front of a building grabing you by the collar and saying, "we ain't hiring white's." Get over the past. Don't punish the present for the past. I never owned a slave. Neither did my father. Or his father's father. GET OVER IT. This big bad world doesn't owe you a thing!

Lee Wilson



[!--EDIT|admin|Dec. 09 2002,4:54--]

Jobs, acceptance to college, academic scholarships, athletic scholarships, etc. should be based solely on merit.  After acceptance to college, financial aid should be based on need and not on race, sex, or any other criteria.

Kevin

The problem with most of the argumentation on this thread is not the moral outrage or the ethics. The problem is the arguments are being made from Fantasy Island and not the real world. :) The NBA thing is just silly. For every Kobe and Shaq there are thousands of never made its flipping burgers at Mickey D's or trying to get on with the local parks and recs department. The high visibility of this very exclusive few has done much harm to the correct process of proprly preparing for the future in the African American community. I'll trade you one Kobe and one Shaq for 2 million doctors, lawyers, businessmen, dentists, store owners, novelty shop proprietors, etc... etc... anyday! And you wouldn't have to give them million gazillion dollar contracts or put their sweating bodies on TV! Ever! :)

I truly feel bad for the two white guys who were rejected because they are white. I think it needs to be addressed and they need to be admitted.

But to say that that's a knock on AA is rediculous. If I remember correctly, the total percentage of college students in America is something like 3% AfricanAmerican. Where is this hoard of blacks taking away white slots? Here are a few facts to help the discussion...

In 1860, Blacks in America had a combined net worth of half of one percentage point.  Guess what in 2001, after Civil Rights, Jesse Jackson, Oprah, Shaq, NAACP, and Urban League, our combined net worth is half a percentage point.

Two white men: Bill Gates and Larry  Elision, combined have more wealth than the combined wealth of all  36 million Blacks in America.  Civil Rights did not change  the economic landscape or the balance of power in America.

I don't state these two to in any way diminish the pain of the two white teens who weren't admitted, but to say that blacks have somehow robbed white Americans of jobs and school slots is rediculous.

Janine,

Apparently you want it both ways. You said, "We could all go to Venezuela, where skin color apparently matters not a whit..."

Now which is it? Do you want race to matter? Or do you not? From that last quote, it sounds like you don't want race to matter. If that is the case, then my father should have been hired by NASA because he was the most qualified and the one they wanted. So if race doesn't matter, get the best person for the job regardless of race. Right?

Janine, my friend, please don't rub salt into my wound by saying you don't want race to matter EXCEPT when being selected for jobs and THEN pick blacks over whites. That's not fair. That doesn't sound like you!

Your friend for equality, love, grace, and peace,

Lee