Is it my turn to order the universe yet?

Of course I don't think race should be a qualifier when considering someone for an employment position, scholarship, award, promotion, loan, meal or good massage!

Perhaps it's the best 'The Left' can come up with.  Like trying to 'legislate morality', they want to make up for sin by legislating equality.  Well, equality (as in 'value') and equality (as in 'treat me the same as some and better than the next guy') are two different concepts.

That's silly and small-time, and penalizes me for my ancestry.

*Some of my ancestors wore collars and dirt and little else, and were property of some lord.

*Some went through the life-wrenching culture shock of dangerous travel to a foreign land, hoping for a better life (and got some good things going, too...) only to be forcibly pulled off their land, segregated by gender and sent in overcrowded unsafe ships to an even more foreign land.  Some of the familes were never able to reunite.

*Some of them were beaten if they spoke their native tongue.

*Some of them were traded off like property as infants.

*Some worked for cents a day in rice paddies and swamps and mills, having left school to help support their families.

*Some died young, leaving small children behind when simple diagnostic medical care could have prevented it... but there was no money for such.

Not all those examples were back in the mists of time, like Fate's 1500's example.  Some of those instances were 300, 200 years ago, and some were 50 years ago.

And all of them were Caucasian... as far as I can tell by looking at myself! :D (Mamma was adopted, so there are all sorts of possibilities there!:p )

I have the advantages I have, now, partly because of the sufferings of my ancestors, and wholly because of the grace of God.

So also does the Black guy across the street and next to me in the church pew.

I AM NOT wanting to cut society adrift, so that I may suffer no inconvenience, pay no price, myself, and yet still somehow expect help for "the disadvantaged".

But neither to I think straightforward, unadulterated, Jesse-Jackson-style "AffAc" is the answer.  (Better than "AA".  I keep thinking we're arguing over the benefits of booze...)

Thus my thought about a society like Booty's, where (when they're not trying to buck off a megalomanaical leader) they care very little about ancestry when relating to others.

Kind of like Brazil, I hear.  Both Venezuela and Brazil don't care enough about thong bikinis, though... it's a trade-off, I guess. ;)

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Bill @ Dec. 10 2002,03:16)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Well said, Wiley.  Amen.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]If you really want to talk about discrimination, lets talk about how women are treated in the Church of Christ!  Lets talk about how hard it is for a woman who has heard God's calling to ministry to find a ministerial job in any church--Black, White, Hispanic, Oriental, or multi-ethnic-- and when we do get women ministers, they are paid 25 to 35% less than men with the exact same education, are not treated equally  by the male leadership, still cannot speak in an assembly or, God forbid, teach a baptized male!  If a male pulpit minister with a Masters in CE is worth $40k (time OJ factored in), then a female childrens minister is worth exactly the same (time OJ factored in) and not $10K less!  And personally, considering where society and the church have been heading in recent years, maybe the female Children's minister should be the highest paid minister of all because she's working directly with the real future of the church--the children under twelve!  However, equal pay would be nice!!!
[/quote]

There is a Christian Church in our town that is a good example of your thoughts on Women Children's Ministers.  This church has an attendance of around 300.  If it were not for the female Children Minister it would not have anywhere near this attendance.  The pulpit minister tends to drive people away but the Children's Minister brings in the kids and their parents faster then he can get rid of them.  Guess who gets paid the most?  For quite some time the Children's Minister did this on a volunteer basis.  She increased the total numbers in the church so much that they had to hire her or look plain stupid.

Bill[/quote]
Bill - Amen, Amen, and Amen.

Kevin

Mike has a good point - [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]If we are a group (and I believe this is the Biblical teaching) then we all suffer, and all need to repent, when there exists an inequity or a sin. [/quote]
Are we all in this together, or are we each out for number 1?

On the otherhand, I think Jerrybrooke has raised a valid question - [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]From my experience, at this point, affirmative action is not only discriminatory but also harmful to those it tries to help.[/quote]
Are we now at the point where affirmative action does more harm than good?

I personally am inclined to say not yet.  I'd need to see some real evidence before I changed my mind.

We know that

1) We aren't playing fair (as a country) yet.
2) Affirmative action works.  Since it is human nature to 'like' best those who are like us, a.a. does help us break through that barrier and expand our concept of 'like us.'

On the other hand

3) There's an assumption that special helps lead to dependency.  

Of course, common knowledge doesn't always hold up, so we need to actually study the problem to determine where that break-even point is.  

Or, we could continue to just sit around and argue.


(Son of a Preacher Man, you had me until you implied that the white male was now oppressed.  Please!)

(Lee-are the Irish really still suffering from significant discrimination today?)

Kari

KMV/Kari:

There are threads I simply don't look at on this board, as on some other boards.  That might be easier on you than wishing politics would go away.

I say that in all sincerety and Christian love, knowing myself quite well how it is to have others tap dancing on my last intact nerve.

Inevitably when favortism is shown towards one group it shows prejudice against another.  Affirmative Action was a necessary tool (I think) in its day, but now we have a new group that is oppressed.  

I was taking this civil rights training once and the instructor went through a list of all the protected classes.  Then she said, "everybody falls into at least two protected classes".  I said, "PROVE IT!  Where do I fit in?"  She couldn't find one.
What does that say?

I agree, Fate. And our walk with God is about sacrifice and showing love to someone. What would any of us give up in our life to show the kindness of God? Would you be willing to go hungry for awhile so someone else may eat? Would God ever ask us to take the back seat to allow someone else to find freedom? Jesus took the form of a servant and it does go against our nature, but He can work it out in us when we're willing.

seekr

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]KMV/Kari:

There are threads I simply don't look at on this board, as on some other boards.  That might be easier on you than wishing politics would go away.

I say that in all sincerity and Christian love, knowing myself quite well how it is to have others tap dancing on my last intact nerve.[/quote]

Are you kidding? (you might be-I find it hard to tell with you and Booty sometimes).  This is the most civil political thread I've seen here.  Not a single person has accused me of wishing to suck the brains out of unborn children; I'll admit, that one's pretty vicious.  

And I don't think we should divorce our politics from our religion.  I do think we should stop making politics our religion.  We on the left are too prone to the former; you on the right are too prone to the latter.

I also people would use more actual thought and less generalizations in deciding their politics, but that seems to be human nature.  Believe it or not, 'The Left' is no more homogenous than 'The Right'.  I really don't think cliches help forward understanding in any way, but that's your business.  

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Not all those examples were back in the mists of time, like Fate's 1500's example.  Some of those instances were 300, 200 years ago, and some were 50 years ago.[/quote]

If I'm not mistaken, the importing of slaves went on into the 1800s (just 200 years ago) and of course, slavery and then jim crow went on, legally, until just a short while ago.  And as Mr. Lott's recent comments prove, racism at even the highest level of society continues today.

By the way, here is an analogy:  When my kids and their cousins and friends are playing together, sometimes my oldest and his friends will pretty much just cheat the little kids until they get caught.  Should I let the other kids take extra turns until they get caught up, or just make them play fair from then on out?  As you can guess, my son always wants to keep his ill-gotten-gains and just play fair from then on out.  He says, "But Mom, two wrongs don't make a right."  What do you think?

By the way, Bill, I know what you mean.  I've seen a WHOLE lot of jobs go to the boss's friends daughter, or his assistant's nephew, or the guy who kisses up the best.  Or the youngest and therefore cheapest applicant.  There are probably very few positions that are filled by the actually best qualified.  

Kari