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Author Topic: The US Constitution  (Read 33784 times)

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Offline lightshineon

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Re: The US Constitution
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2010, 12:46:10 AM »
There was a woman on the news tonight, saying something about illegals constitutional rights being violated. When did illegals obtain constitutional rights? Did I miss something?
The Constitution does not give anyone any rights.  It merely serves as a governmental safeguard of the liberties which all men have inherently, which derive from God and good sense.



 So what do you consider liberties? When a citizen is arrested they must be read their Miranda rights. You know the right to remain silent, the right, to have an attorney, and if you cannot afford one, one will be appointed to you. I believe these are citizens rights  under the Constitution.

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Re: The US Constitution
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2010, 12:46:10 AM »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The US Constitution
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2010, 01:28:47 AM »
There was a woman on the news tonight, saying something about illegals constitutional rights being violated. When did illegals obtain constitutional rights? Did I miss something?
The Constitution does not give anyone any rights.  It merely serves as a governmental safeguard of the liberties which all men have inherently, which derive from God and good sense.
So what do you consider liberties? When a citizen is arrested they must be read their Miranda rights. You know the right to remain silent, the right, to have an attorney, and if you cannot afford one, one will be appointed to you. I believe these are citizens rights  under the Constitution.
The Constitution (actually Amendment 5 I believe) guarantees a man this liberty: he cannot be compelled to testify against himself in a court of law.

"Miranda rights" are something that our Supreme Court extrapolated from this.  They are not actually in the Constitution, but they basically say that a man cannot be compelled to say or do things out-of-court that could later be used against himself in court.  However, once a suspect has been specifically made aware of this right (read his rights), if he proceeds to say or do such things, then it is considered that he has waived this right.

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Re: The US Constitution
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2010, 01:28:47 AM »

Offline lightshineon

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Re: The US Constitution
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2010, 11:51:13 AM »
There was a woman on the news tonight, saying something about illegals constitutional rights being violated. When did illegals obtain constitutional rights? Did I miss something?
The Constitution does not give anyone any rights.  It merely serves as a governmental safeguard of the liberties which all men have inherently, which derive from God and good sense.
So what do you consider liberties? When a citizen is arrested they must be read their Miranda rights. You know the right to remain silent, the right, to have an attorney, and if you cannot afford one, one will be appointed to you. I believe these are citizens rights  under the Constitution.
The Constitution (actually Amendment 5 I believe) guarantees a man this liberty: he cannot be compelled to testify against himself in a court of law.

"Miranda rights" are something that our Supreme Court extrapolated from this.  They are not actually in the Constitution, but they basically say that a man cannot be compelled to say or do things out-of-court that could later be used against himself in court.  However, once a suspect has been specifically made aware of this right (read his rights), if he proceeds to say or do such things, then it is considered that he has waived this right.



 I understand what you are saying, but,  the Miranda rights do, have roots in the fifth, and sixth amendments. I am thrilled that we have a constitution, that affords American Citizens rights. The constitution, is for citizens or legal aliens, it is not designed for illegal aliens, and enemy combatants. I believe we are the greatest country in the world, but that is my opinion. The apostle Paul, was sure glad to be a Roman citizen, when he mentioned it, to the Roman Guard, and did not have to take a beating, without a trail. Certian things even the Roman citizens had as rights, like the could not be crucified, or they had a somewhat a court system. Paul, being in submission to being a Roman citizen, as far as it did not violate God's laws, used it to his advantage. I am disturbed that our president, who took and oath to uphold, and defend the constitution, hates the constitution, and does not uphold or defend the constitution against all foreign, and domestic threats. I also hate how Romans thirteen is used to support the president, but not the constitution, whose authority is what we are subject to.

Offline jonmower

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Re: The US Constitution
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2010, 09:13:24 PM »
There was a woman on the news tonight, saying something about illegals constitutional rights being violated. When did illegals obtain constitutional rights? Did I miss something?

I think you're mistaken about to whom the constitution applies.  As I understand it, the constitution describes what the federal government can and can not do with respect to everyone within the United States, not just citizens.

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Re: The US Constitution
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2010, 09:13:24 PM »
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Offline jb728b

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Re: The US Constitution
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2010, 11:21:55 AM »
Actually the first line of the Constitution says We The people OF the United States not IN the united states. It applies to legal citizens of the US.

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Re: The US Constitution
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2010, 11:21:55 AM »



Offline lightshineon

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Re: The US Constitution
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2010, 12:00:27 PM »
Actually the first line of the Constitution says We The people OF the United States not IN the united states. It applies to legal citizens of the US.





 Yep, citizens rights.

Offline jonmower

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Re: The US Constitution
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2010, 01:59:32 PM »
Actually the first line of the Constitution says We The people OF the United States not IN the united states. It applies to legal citizens of the US.


That identifies who established the constitution, not to whom it is relevant.

For example, from the same web site that the original poster referenced, on a page titled "Things That Are Not In the U.S. Constitution" (link):

Quote
The Constitution does protect the freedom of speech of every citizen, and even of non-citizens — but only from restriction by the Congress (and, by virtue of the 14th Amendment, by state legislatures, too).


I'm not claiming that literally no one thinks otherwise, but the Supreme Court has generally held that the constitution applies to everyone in the U.S. with the exception of the parts that are explicitly identified as applying to citizens (right to vote, the right to hold most federal jobs, and the right to run for political office).

Here is a link to Glenn Greenwald's recent article on this issue (link).  Here is an excerpt, for example:

Quote
...the U.S. Supreme Court, in 2008, issued a highly publicized opinion, in Boumediene v. Bush, which, by itself, makes clear how false is the claim that the Constitution applies only to Americans.  The Boumediene  Court held that it was unconstitutional for the Military Commissions Act to deny habeas corpus rights to Guantanamo detainees, none of whom was an American citizen (indeed, the detainees were all foreign nationals outside of the U.S.).  If the Constitution applied only to U.S. citizens, that decision would obviously be impossible.  What's more, although the decision was 5-4, none of the 9 Justices -- and, indeed, not even the Bush administration -- argued that the Constitution applies only to American citizens.   That is such an inane, false, discredited proposition that no responsible person would ever make that claim.

What divided the Boumediene Court was the question of whether foreigners held by the U.S. military outside of the U.S. (as opposed to inside the U.S.) enjoy Constitutional protections.  They debated how Guantanamo should be viewed in that regard (as foreign soil or something else).  But not even the 4 dissenting judges believed -- as Susan Collins and other claim -- that Constitutional rights only extend to Americans.  To the contrary, Justice Scalia, in his scathing dissent, approvingly quoted Justice Jackson in conceding that foreigners detained inside the U.S. are protected by the Constitution (emphasis added):

    Justice Jackson then elaborated on the historical scope of the writ:

    "The alien, to whom the United States has been traditionally hospitable, has been accorded a generous and ascending scale of rights as he increases his identity with our society . . . .

    "But, in extending constitutional protections beyond the citizenry, the Court has been at pains to point out that it was the alien's presence within its territorial jurisdiction that gave the Judiciary power to act." Id., at 770–771.

That's from Scalia, and all the dissenting judges joined in that opinion.  It is indisputable, well-settled Constitutional law that the Constitution restricts the actions of the Government with respect to both American citizens and foreigners.  It's not even within the realm of mainstream legal debate to deny that.  Abdulmutallab was detained inside the U.S.  Not even the Bush DOJ -- not even Antonin Scalia -- believe that the Constitution only applies to American citizens.  Indeed, the whole reason why Guantanamo was created was that Bush officials wanted to claim that the Constitution is inapplicable to foreigners held outside the U.S. -- not even the Bush administration would claim that the Constitution is inapplicable to foreigners generally.

The principle that the Constitution applies not only to Americans, but also to foreigners, was hardly invented by the Court in 2008.  To the contrary, the Supreme Court -- all the way back in 1886 -- explicitly held this to be the case, when, in Yick Wo v. Hopkins, it overturned the criminal conviction of a Chinese citizen living in California on the ground that the law in question violated his Fourteenth Amendment rights to due process and equal protection.  In so doing, the Court explicitly rejected what Susan Collins and many others claim about the Constitution.


Offline walker starr

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Re: The US Constitution
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2010, 02:52:12 PM »



   At the time the constitution was written was there a United States?
  How much time passed between the signing of the Declaration of
Independence and the writing of the Constitution?  It would matter
whether there were already citizens or not.

Offline lightshineon

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Re: The US Constitution
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2010, 03:53:38 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_in_the_United_States





 Jon, this tells you what a citizen is. The president must be a US citizen, which tells you the meaning of the constitution, and citizenship. Heck though not to stir the pot, but, Obama is probaly not a citizen.

Offline jonmower

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Re: The US Constitution
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2010, 04:03:17 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_in_the_United_States

 Jon, this tells you what a citizen is. The president must be a US citizen, which tells you the meaning of the constitution, and citizenship. Heck though not to stir the pot, but, Obama is probaly not a citizen.


I'm not disputing the definition of a citizen.  I am stating the fact that, as Greenwald put it, it is "well-settled Constitutional law that the Constitution restricts the actions of the Government with respect to both American citizens and foreigners."

Offline lightshineon

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Re: The US Constitution
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2010, 04:09:33 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_in_the_United_States

 Jon, this tells you what a citizen is. The president must be a US citizen, which tells you the meaning of the constitution, and citizenship. Heck though not to stir the pot, but, Obama is probaly not a citizen.


I'm not disputing the definition of a citizen.  I am stating the fact that, as Greenwald put it, it is "well-settled Constitutional law that the Constitution restricts the actions of the Government with respect to both American citizens and foreigners."







 If you have to be a citizen, to be president, that implies, who has rights, and privileges under the Constitution, and who does not. See what I am saying Jon, to have the right to serve as President you have to be born in the United States. How simple can it be?

Offline jonmower

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Re: The US Constitution
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2010, 08:04:17 PM »
If you have to be a citizen, to be president, that implies, who has rights, and privileges under the Constitution, and who does not. See what I am saying Jon, to have the right to serve as President you have to be born in the United States. How simple can it be?

I already stated that there are some aspects that are explicitly identified as applying to citizens (right to vote, the right to hold most federal jobs, and the right to run for political office).  The rest are not explicitly restricted in this manner and have been interpreted, for more than 100 years now, to apply both to citizens and non-citizens.  Simple.

Offline walker starr

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Re: The US Constitution
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2010, 09:04:07 PM »




The preident must be a citizen by birth in the USA.

Offline lightshineon

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Re: The US Constitution
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2010, 09:43:36 PM »




The preident must be a citizen by birth in the USA.



 Yep, and apparently some believe that, for some reason some of the constitution applies to non-citizens also.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The US Constitution
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2010, 09:45:50 PM »
Let's make it simple.  Hard and fast rule: Governments don't give people rights; Governments take rights away.

The Constitution does not give people rights.  Not to citizens.  Not to illegals.

What the Constitution does do is restrict the government from taking away certain rights.  Well, if you're a citizen.  If you're not, then the Constitution probably doesn't apply to you, so the gubmint can do what it wants to you if you happen to show up on its turf.

So where do we get our rights from?  "All men...are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights."