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Offline One Mind

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Re: How should Christians Approach Politics?
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2014, 10:19:19 AM »
Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

Even the one's we think are bad guys. Is criticizing the government rebelling against it? Sometimes I don't think free speech is a Christian thing either because we are reminded in the bible to control our tongues.

If there is no authority except that which God has established, then that would mean Hitler was in authority, the ruler, and God established that. That is sheer nonsense, and is a red flag, that points to something.

So what does it point to?  It points to text being inserted by someone in collusion with the roman empire who would use what became Christianity  as a tool of control by the empire.

The origin of the NT books should be doubted by the serious religious person, IMO. And as Thomas Jefferson said long ago, one has to dig for the diamonds mixed in with the dung, that is the NT.  Great revelatory facts are contained in the NT, but they are scattered over these huge pile of dung that supports Christianity being the religion of an evil empire.  Those with insight will separate the wheat from the chaff, those without insight will accept anything that give the "I" consciousness, the ego, a sense of security. Psychological security.

To the OP, one can only vote for the lessor of two evils, as both sides are so corrupt, unrighteous, that if you feel a responsibility to partiscipate in this republic(oligarchy in reality)  one must hold the nose and cast the votes. So one is put in a bind, and if you want to vote against the legalized murder of defenseless human beings, you are also voting for the individualists who do not believe in gov't safety nets for the poor, even as we know from the great depression experience that the demand of the poor far outstripped those private charities who were trying to help. It appears that not all the hearts of men are charitable. Which should be no great surprise since the world is so burdened down with sin, and not caring for others is of course a sin. So is greed, ambition, hate, murder, which are all things created by the "I" consciousness that we call the "self" the ego.

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Re: How should Christians Approach Politics?
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2014, 10:19:19 AM »

Offline One Mind

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Re: How should Christians Approach Politics?
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2014, 10:32:12 AM »
I presume that you are implying that a real Christian can't hold my political beliefs. Correct? This is exactly  the reason why I need to keep on speaking.
Not my place to set the rules on what's a "real Christian". That is something each and every one must find on their own. My personal belief is that followers of Christ are meant to be the teachers, the caregivers, the providers; the essence of everything that represents love. We are to be that shining light on the hill drawing more and more to Him simply by the way we live. We are meant to be the example of all that's good. None of that is the role of a secular government, such as we have. I further believe socalled "Christians" must shoulder much of the blame for the mess we now find ourselves in. Too many have farmed out their personal and collective responsibilities to government so they are free to seek out the pleasures of the world. We try very hard to convince ourselves that we are giving, sacrificing, and loving, but an itemizing of the worldly things we cherish and possess speaks otherwise. Look no further than the prosperity gospel that has become so popular, or the oft quoted line of Scripture that there "will always be the poor among us." These are nothing more than rationalizations to not meet the responsibility of allowing Christ to live in and through us. And in that rationalization we now expect government to solve all the problems.

There are enough who consider themselves "real Christians" in this country to solve all the problems, but we don't. Instead we turn to government. That is our failure, not the failure of government. And if we actually worked on solving those problems, there would be an ever increasing number of "real Christians" helping to solve the problems! Again, we are meant to be that light, and if that light ever shines it will draw more and more to it. We just have to have the courage to shine.

Once you take on a political idealogy, once you put a label on yourself, once you start expecting there to be political solutions for everything, you are lost. Well, most of us "real Christians" are lost. And perhaps in the end, we are not real.

Of course the only real solution involves a change in the human nature of humanity.  If humanity could change, move away from the violence, the hatred, the selfish self centeredness that has ruled humanity for the last 50,000 years (or 6000 years if you are a literalist) there would be no need for social safety nets, run by the gov't.  Today there are not enough charitable human hearts to care for all of our poor, as we found out during the great depression. The demand far exceed the supply, which in part led to the expansion and federal involvement in social safety nets. We had to force the non charitable to take care of others, through a part of their income taxes being used for this effort. For without the help of the non chartiable, kids could literally starve to death in this nation, or die from exposure.  That is the fact of the matter. 

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Re: How should Christians Approach Politics?
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2014, 10:32:12 AM »

Offline One Mind

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Re: How should Christians Approach Politics?
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2014, 10:45:34 AM »
Quote
I disagree with this assessment.  The USA is suppose to be the land of opportunity for all who put forth the effort to be successful.  Taking from the rich to give to the poor was tried in 1917 by the Bolshvicks and it did not work for Russia and it will not work for America.  If fair share is what this administration wants, then overhaul the tax code for everyone. 

As for Obamacare, regarding false teachers ....that was pretty much done under false pretensions... as this legislation was passed without any of the written documents read fully.. and now it is coming to light just how expensive and unequal this bill will become.

There is secularism everywhere and the government is not immuned.  However, I believe that there are christian men and women who have a talent and a passion to try to get as much done in our government that would be fair and equiable for all mankind. 

Both parties could use a good "housecleaning" and an immediate return the morality


What does it mean to take from the rich to give to the poor? You mean using a part of our income tax, that only some of the rich pay, but all middle class people indeed pay, and instead of using all of the tax money to kill others, in these never ending futile wars, that we use it to care for the poor?  Is this what you mean? 

Many conservative minded people are fine and dandy, and even desireous of taxes being used to wage war, but they don't like tax money being used to care for human beings who are poor. They don't  mind financing the killing of others, but greatly object to helping suffering human beings.  And they then use the argument of the murderous history of socialism, communism as an example of taking from the rich to give to the poor. 

Instead, why don't they use the story that comes from Acts, in the NT, when the people waiting for Pentacost, the well do do, sold their possessions, and gave their entire wealth to the apostles to redistribute it to that vast group of humanity, to each according to his need.  Now, what these people did looks like some sort of socialism, but we must not forget that the inspiration to do this came from God. If you will also recall, when one man and wife got selfish and kept some back for themselves, a little pile, God struck both dead, first the husband, then the wife.     

So the conservative minded brothers need to consider their own scripture and think about this a bit more, perhaps?

Offline Nevertheless

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Re: How should Christians Approach Politics?
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2014, 11:01:50 AM »
One Mind, you need to learn the difference between a gift freely given and a tax extorted under penalty of law. You also need to learn the difference between being selfish and lying to the Holy Spirit. [I suggest that you reread Acts 5.]

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Re: How should Christians Approach Politics?
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2014, 11:01:50 AM »

Offline Johnb

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Re: How should Christians Approach Politics?
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2014, 12:15:24 PM »
Quote Never
One Mind, you need to learn the difference between a gift freely given and a tax extorted under penalty of law. You also need to learn the difference between being selfish and lying to the Holy Spirit. [I suggest that you reread Acts 5.]


Yes .  Also it is odd that the top 10% of folks pay 86% of all taxes and yet are accused of not paying their fair share.

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Re: How should Christians Approach Politics?
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2014, 12:15:24 PM »



Offline crowcamp

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Re: How should Christians Approach Politics?
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2014, 08:03:01 PM »
IMHO, charity can never be legislated. That governments have become involved in establishing welfare for the less fortunate is shortsighted, wasteful, and against Christian principles. We, those who follow the teachings of Christ, are to be the givers, the caretakers, the safety net. If we truly believe in His Word we give all, until there is nothing left. Why? Because we have been given everything. Now, I'm sure you will find many "Christians" who will disagree.

What governments can do is legislate incentives to be charitable. Actually, that is precisely what that should be legislating. If the needed funds flowed directly to charitable organizations and on to those in need instead of through bureaucratic agencies the results would be much more positive. We, the followers of Christ, are supposed to be those organizations. Unfortunately, we are not.

Offline One Mind

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Re: How should Christians Approach Politics?
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2014, 06:09:37 AM »
One Mind, you need to learn the difference between a gift freely given and a tax extorted under penalty of law. You also need to learn the difference between being selfish and lying to the Holy Spirit. [I suggest that you reread Acts 5.]

I know the difference between a charitable heart and taxes.  I also know of the deep selfishness of humanity. Charity to care for our poor here in America has never been enough. Yet to takes taxes which are paid anyway and use that to care for the poor irks some people. They get all riled up about it. So they care more about tax money being spent on the poor, than they care for the poor.

This is not to say that I agree with how our social safety nets are construed, for I do not. But I agree with the principle being used, for if not for that, americans would suffer a great deal more than they already do, in this Brave New World of Neo Feudalism. (globalization)

Perhaps we need to look into our own black hearts and SEE the real reason we are against using tax money to care for the poor? 

Taxes are here to stay, even if we hate paying them. As long as they are here to stay, and if we are gonna extract taxes(render unto casaer those things which are his...)  to get upset about using some of that money to care for the poor illustrates  much about such people. Their "misplaced" principles trump human life. An idea is more important than flesh and blood.  They cling to an idea created by a selfish human brain, so that they might feel ok about not using tax money to care for the poor. Yet many of these people are always ready to spend that money on killing other humans. The hypocrisy screams up towards heaven.  The Creator knows the heart of man. Even without the screaming, the stomping of selfish feet.

Offline One Mind

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Re: How should Christians Approach Politics?
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2014, 06:24:48 AM »
Quote Never
One Mind, you need to learn the difference between a gift freely given and a tax extorted under penalty of law. You also need to learn the difference between being selfish and lying to the Holy Spirit. [I suggest that you reread Acts 5.]


Yes .  Also it is odd that the top 10% of folks pay 86% of all taxes and yet are accused of not paying their fair share.

They pay more today in proportion than they once did. The middle class used to pay the largest part, but then the middle started dying, more and more income went to the top, and so you must tax those who are making the money, which is the rich. They pay more because they are making most of the income.

The rich are a defiled group of people in the eyes of God. These so called Christians do not read their own scripture, and are lovers of wealth, when Christ clearly told us it is almost impossible for the rich to get into Heaven. In America today, we worship wealth, and many people desire to be rich, even as Christ railed against it.

The absurdity, the sheer nonsense involved is overwhelming.

Very few humans have ever gotten wealthy without exploiting other people. That is a fact. Only a greedy man gets wealthy. Is greed a sin, or not? Why worship the wealthy when they are so lost in sin? Why put them on pedistil to be looked up to, admired? This is what the world admires, and strives to be just like. But Christians are not supposed to be of the world, are they?  The ideals of this world should not be the ideals of Christians. I don't know many genuine Christians, but I know plenty of men who are of this world, yet call themselves Christians.

Why is it almost impossible for a rich man to get into heaven. Have you ever really thought about it? 

When God created the earth He also created all of life, flora and fauna, all of the resources that man would need in order to thrive here on this earth. He gave humanity the resources, and enough to care for all of humanity, and then left it up to humanity to see to it that these resources to be distributed to human beings. If He had personally took over the job, he would have given an equal amount to all people, for human beings rely upon the resources for life to continue on. But since He left it up to man, to do this, man being selfish, greedy wanted to hoard more of what God gave to ALL, and so we have always had a few who hoarded wealth they could never spend, as we allowed others to starve to death. And yet some would defend this?  It's sheer nonsense.

Offline Elsaur

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Re: How should Christians Approach Politics?
« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2014, 02:18:24 PM »
I've created a thread to discuss this issue since it seems many threads in this forum have been sidetracked to address this question.

In the future discuss this topic in this thread, instead of taking other threads off course.


Hello Wycliffes_Shillelagh

How should Christians approach politics?  We Christians approach politics the way law abiding citizens approach politics-with a bent to assure that justice and protection for all prevails.  As Christians, we are followers of our Lord Jesus of the Bible (our Creator), who IS truth and our source of wisdom.  Aren't protection and justice the primary responsibilities for government?  What should Justice be based on?  It's based on the law, of course-law that's based on the Mosaic Law.  If all involved in politics were lawful and just in all of their moves, much of the division and conflict we see around us would be eliminated.  Can a divided nation stand?

What about this thing called "separation of church and state?"  This phrase is not in the Constitution.  Jefferson used in a letter to assure a Baptist minister that the first amendment would be upheld in the case of his congregation.  The first amendment simply instructs government not to interfere with the FREE exercise of religion.  It controls the government, not individuals.  It was never meant to force Christians to drop allegiance to God in the public square for fear of offending anyone.  The Constitution instead frees us to apply peace promoting Biblical wisdom to all aspects of life.  Biblical religion that's correctly exercised is by nature offensive to no one and instead invokes blessing and protection for all. 
 
We give our allegiance to God of the Judeo-Christian Bible and no other in all of life's affairs including politics.  Is that wrong?  Do ships have more than one captain?  The spaceship called "earth" also has only one "Captain" that gave us our unalienable rights and holds us responsible to uphold and protect them.

'Nuff said? 

Take care,
Earl

« Last Edit: December 25, 2014, 06:39:01 AM by Elsaur »

Offline Spirit Filled

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Re: How should Christians Approach Politics?
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2015, 08:51:44 PM »
How should Christians Approach Politics?

Wearing a surgical mask and carrying a hearty pair of tongs.
On our side of it it's all smoke and mirrors. On their side is the power, the corruption, the money, money, money, and power. They rule. We're deluded enough to think we have a voice and a choice. We don't. Look around. Is this what you wanted? Did you vote for it? Did that email you sent get paid attention to? Has anything changed for the better or is it getting worse?

The next generation ready to become our leaders are being programmed in our universities and colleges. Words have power. They evoke thought that in turn evokes vision.

Remember Seinfeld show? My how times have changed.   Read the book, The New Thought Police - Inside the Left's Assault on Free Speech and Free Minds, by Tammy Bruce.
Freedom is what we're told.

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Offline pureinheart

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Re: How should Christians Approach Politics?
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2015, 05:09:32 PM »

Offline Hexalpa

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Re: How should Christians Approach Politics?
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2015, 12:17:19 AM »
I would not give to the poor, I would look to help them prosper on their own account, That's what truly giving is all about.

Giving such the tools they need is what it's all about.

Just giving has nothing to do with God, as just giving can be like giving a mongrel dog a bone and all it will do is bite you.

No one truly get something for nothing by giving blindly, that's the work of Satan.

Once you take Church and State out of it, you have Satanic dictatorship communism on your hands. it's an direct attack on God !

All atheist grubs attack Church and State because they are God less.

The Satanic extreme right wing have been in powered by cunning morons that push the conservatives around with the help of the extreme left.

I look at it this way, the far right and the far left are extreme radicals who push their filth constantly much like a drug to delude all. they are Vampires !

If you could get both ends of the right and left and look at it as a face of a clock, 12 o' clock is the extreme of both left and right but only separated by type of a madness, but they are much the same dog, out to cunningly deceive all they can with their sick madness.

Now I can swing from 3 o'clock to 9 o'clock as I don't buy into that filth at all because from 12 to 3 are in slaved by the far left and 9 to 12 are in slaved by the far right.

The extreme right and left work hand in hand to fool all the people because they know they have to keep the facade up or risk being seen for who they truly are, a work of iniquity.  ::lookaround::

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: How should Christians Approach Politics?
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2015, 09:49:58 PM »
I've created a thread to discuss this issue since it seems many threads in this forum have been sidetracked to address this question.

In the future discuss this topic in this thread, instead of taking other threads off course.

Some folk attempt to approach American politics by means of fanaticism.  Romans 13:1 is a favorite quotation of theirs implying absolute allegiance in their mind.   That's not what St. Paul intended in his letter.  Think about it.   

The letter was addressed to Christians living in the capital of an extremely militaristic and corrupt Empire.  Do you not think they were aware of their culture and their duties as citizens?  St. Paul did not intend his letter to be instruction in matters of which they were already intimately aware.   The tension they experienced was between allegiance to God and duty to Empire.  Allegiance and duty can be two different things.

No man can serve two masters.  No one can give allegiance to a corrupt world and the Kingdom of Heaven at the same time.  Either he will wrap himself in a flag stained with blood and greedy conquest or he will risk shedding his own blood for the sake of Heaven's pure call.  You cannot love nation and Heaven at the same time.   Jesus went even further.  His extreme political attitude was that one cannot even love his own life, but must learn to hate it if it conflicts with God's righteousness.   Every dedicated Christian fights with the tension between temptation and allegiance to Christ, but WHY does the effort suddenly have to be reinvented when national politics becomes a factor?  I submit that there is no difference.  Christ must always come first.

Consider that Jesus NEVER pledged allegiance to Rome or it's Emperor.
Consider that Jesus NEVER honored the troops whose bloody hands were the execution of unjust national policy.
Consider that Jesus NEVER participated in patriotic parades, ceremonies, boasts of national pride or honored its conquests.
Consider that Jesus was NEVER part of the political system.

What Jesus did...........

Was to live and act and work exactly like a tourist in a foreign land.
How does a tourist act?   
A tourist obeys the laws of the land, pays it's taxes and acts within the scope of it's custom.

In His life on earth, Jesus acted like a tourist among the people with whom He shared a heritage - the Jews.
He walked among them, but was recognized even by His enemies as someone who did not participate in their political games.

He paid the ultimate price for His lack of cooperation.

Today Americans are faced with a political system that has corrupted itself so far beyond recognition that definitions of debauchery seem to change daily.

For example, Political Science 101 taught us that the US government is composed of three branches; legislative, executive and judicial.
Yet since 1948 a forth branch has usurped more power than our founding fathers ever dreamed possible.   The forth branch is the combination of the Pentagon and Intelligence Community.   Shadow wars multiply like garden weeds and the world now suffers under the cruel endless war imposed by this fourth branch of the American government.   Even POTUS Bush and Obama were and are powerless to stop its march into power.   They are unelected and unsympathetic to the original American constitution and its limits.

Shall a Christian give allegiance to this government that now enjoys global hegemony and has ambition to hold onto it at all costs including the blood of innocents both at home and abroad?   Such a judgment is for each man and woman to make alone.   It should be remembered, however, that there will be a reckoning for one's actions - even those of a Christian.

Shall a government deep in murder and perversion be honored with allegiance greater than one would give to Christ?

There is no example in Holy Write that commands a Christian to give allegiance to any political system of the world.   We are told to live as ambassadors of the Holy God among men - as tourists in a foreign land that is sinking under the weight of its own lasciviousness and licentiousness.  We are to obey its laws insofar as our conscience allows and to pay its taxes, but that is the limit of God's expectations of us.

Increasingly the US government has lost the respect of most decent men.  It should have never had our allegiance in the first place.  Is it strange, I wonder, that no citizen was ever asked to give it until the middle of the 20th century by which time the future oligarchs had their plans and devices well placed and arranged?  In the 21st century, it is fair time to call the government what it is - demonic.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft... 
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 09:52:35 PM by Choir Loft »

Offline Mary7

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Re: How should Christians Approach Politics?
« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2015, 11:52:44 AM »
I've created a thread to discuss this issue since it seems many threads in this forum have been sidetracked to address this question.

In the future discuss this topic in this thread, instead of taking other threads off course.

Some folk attempt to approach American politics by means of fanaticism.  Romans 13:1 is a favorite quotation of theirs implying absolute allegiance in their mind.   That's not what St. Paul intended in his letter.  Think about it.   

The letter was addressed to Christians living in the capital of an extremely militaristic and corrupt Empire.  Do you not think they were aware of their culture and their duties as citizens?  St. Paul did not intend his letter to be instruction in matters of which they were already intimately aware.   The tension they experienced was between allegiance to God and duty to Empire.  Allegiance and duty can be two different things.

No man can serve two masters.  No one can give allegiance to a corrupt world and the Kingdom of Heaven at the same time.  Either he will wrap himself in a flag stained with blood and greedy conquest or he will risk shedding his own blood for the sake of Heaven's pure call.  You cannot love nation and Heaven at the same time.   Jesus went even further.  His extreme political attitude was that one cannot even love his own life, but must learn to hate it if it conflicts with God's righteousness.   Every dedicated Christian fights with the tension between temptation and allegiance to Christ, but WHY does the effort suddenly have to be reinvented when national politics becomes a factor?  I submit that there is no difference.  Christ must always come first.

Consider that Jesus NEVER pledged allegiance to Rome or it's Emperor.
Consider that Jesus NEVER honored the troops whose bloody hands were the execution of unjust national policy.
Consider that Jesus NEVER participated in patriotic parades, ceremonies, boasts of national pride or honored its conquests.
Consider that Jesus was NEVER part of the political system.

What Jesus did...........

Was to live and act and work exactly like a tourist in a foreign land.
How does a tourist act?   
A tourist obeys the laws of the land, pays it's taxes and acts within the scope of it's custom.

In His life on earth, Jesus acted like a tourist among the people with whom He shared a heritage - the Jews.
He walked among them, but was recognized even by His enemies as someone who did not participate in their political games.

He paid the ultimate price for His lack of cooperation.

Today Americans are faced with a political system that has corrupted itself so far beyond recognition that definitions of debauchery seem to change daily.

For example, Political Science 101 taught us that the US government is composed of three branches; legislative, executive and judicial.
Yet since 1948 a forth branch has usurped more power than our founding fathers ever dreamed possible.   The forth branch is the combination of the Pentagon and Intelligence Community.   Shadow wars multiply like garden weeds and the world now suffers under the cruel endless war imposed by this fourth branch of the American government.   Even POTUS Bush and Obama were and are powerless to stop its march into power.   They are unelected and unsympathetic to the original American constitution and its limits.

Shall a Christian give allegiance to this government that now enjoys global hegemony and has ambition to hold onto it at all costs including the blood of innocents both at home and abroad?   Such a judgment is for each man and woman to make alone.   It should be remembered, however, that there will be a reckoning for one's actions - even those of a Christian.

Shall a government deep in murder and perversion be honored with allegiance greater than one would give to Christ?

There is no example in Holy Write that commands a Christian to give allegiance to any political system of the world.   We are told to live as ambassadors of the Holy God among men - as tourists in a foreign land that is sinking under the weight of its own lasciviousness and licentiousness.  We are to obey its laws insofar as our conscience allows and to pay its taxes, but that is the limit of God's expectations of us.

Increasingly the US government has lost the respect of most decent men.  It should have never had our allegiance in the first place.  Is it strange, I wonder, that no citizen was ever asked to give it until the middle of the 20th century by which time the future oligarchs had their plans and devices well placed and arranged?  In the 21st century, it is fair time to call the government what it is - demonic.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
I agree with you 100%
Here are some interesting links
This man is a Baptist pastor and that is all I know about him but I agree with this:
[links removed - Rule 3.3]

I also believe that Christians have mixed patriotism and politics with Christianity to the point of losing following Jesus. Jesus is not an American citizen. We are citizens of heaven
2tim 2 No one serving as a soldier gets entangled in civilian affairs, but rather tries to please his commanding officer.
But the thing really boils down to the debate of does America belong to God.. was it established by God. I used to believe that as a former flag waving Tea Party member but i no longer do.
 Most of the founding Fathers were Diests not Christians.
The whole rebellion against the government went against the Bible

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.


The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”~1797 Treaty of Tripoli signed by Founding Father John AdamsTHOMAS JEFFERSON Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823"One day the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in the United States will tear down the artificial scaffolding of Christianity. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.

I am sure there will be an uproar from this just as I would have protested before I really started investigating all of it.
 
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 04:29:22 PM by Nevertheless »