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Author Topic: Who Pays Taxes in America?  (Read 49631 times)

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jgarden

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2007, 06:18:17 AM »
There's nothing sinful about money or having lots of it. In fact, when God told Solomon that He would give him anything he wanted and Solomon chose wisdom, God blessed with him with wisdom and other things--including money. So according to God, money--even lots and lots of it, can be a blessing. It's all about the heart. The "love" of money is the "root of all evil." Not money itself.
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If the love of money is the "root of all evil," why would God deliberately place temptation in front of His own people when they had already succumbed to temptatation, fallen from Grace and forced from the Garden of Eden.
I believe it was Satan in the form of a serpent who tempted Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge.
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The reason the very wealthy in America keep making more money is because they leverage the money they have. There's nothing wrong with that. And secondly, just because the rich have a lot of money, it doesn't mean there's less for everyone else. No one digs a hole and buries their money. They put it in a bank and then the bank loans it to people or invests it. Or they use it to buy things that pay us all at our jobs. Or they invest it and those companies use the money to make more products which creates more jobs. Or they donate it. Or they start a business with it that provides jobs so other people can earn money. Or someone with a lot of money can do something that someone with an average income can't--like buy thousands of Bibles to send with a missionary to another part of the world. Or fund the mission trip entirely. Or make huge investments in cancer research.

Money is a dynamic thing. There are no "pieces of the pie." It's unlimited in a free-market society like ours.
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8.  "Again the devil taketh Him (Jesus) up into an exceedingly high mountain, and shewth Him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9.  And saith unto Him, All these things I give thee, if you wilt fall down and worship me.

10.  Then said Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve."
(Matthew 4:8-10)

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It would appear that Americans have accepted the kingdoms of this world and then claim they haven't succumbed to temptation. 

Unfortunately, Satan offers no such option and Americans are deluding themselves if they think he is offering them a better deal than he offered Jesus.

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2007, 06:18:17 AM »

Offline janine

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2007, 07:14:56 AM »
The love of money IS the root of (all) evil, because the Bible says so.  (Unless you're tossing out that passage for some good scholarly reason?  If so, let us know.)

You don't have to believe the concept.

Fortunately your salvation doesn't depend upon your own cleverness.

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2007, 07:14:56 AM »

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2007, 08:05:59 AM »
Solomon made his dough, primarily through trading.  However, it is good of jgarden to remind us of the great benefit of low taxes.
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LEVITICUS

13 The king (Solomon's successor) answered them (Isrealites)harshly. Rejecting the advice of the elders,

14 he followed the advice of the young men and said, "My father (Solomon)made your yoke heavy; I will make it even heavier. My father scourged you with whips; I will scourge you with scorpions."
Most of the trading Solomon ever did was for concubines and wives.

He ran Israel like one big "plantation" using his own people as "forced labor."

"plantation", "forced labor" . . .

What are you quoting?

Most of his trading was not for women.  Anyway, it's good to have the reminder from the OT reminding us of the evil of high taxes.

navyvet

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OpinionJournal - Bruce Bartlett: national sales tax bad idea, rates of 89%?
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2007, 01:46:46 PM »
See http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110010523

Plus the cost of all the refund checks.

Quote
Rejecting all the tricks of FairTax supporters and calculating the tax rate honestly--by including the higher spending that it mandates and by being realistic about what could actually be taxed--professional revenue estimators have always concluded that a national retail sales tax would have to be much, much higher than 23%.
A 2000 estimate by Congress's Joint Committee on Taxation found the tax-inclusive rate would have to be 36% and the tax-exclusive rate would be 57%. In 2005, the U.S. Treasury Department calculated that a tax-exclusive rate of 34% would be needed just to replace the income tax, leaving the payroll tax in place. But if evasion were high then the rate might have to rise to 49%. If the FairTax were only able to cover the limited sales tax base of a typical state, then a rate of 64% would be required (89% with high evasion).

I've emphasized problems with the FairTax rate because public opinion polls have long shown that support for flat-rate tax reforms is extremely sensitive to the proposed rate, with support dropping off sharply at a rate higher than 23%. But there are also massive technical and administrative problems with collecting all federal taxes at the checkout counter and relying entirely on state governments to collect the federal government's revenue.

Among the problems: What possible incentive would the states have to be vigorous in their federal tax collections? What is to stop them from slacking off and giving their citizens a tax cut at federal expense? What about states with no sales taxes? What's to stop people from bypassing retail outlets and buying their goods from producers or at wholesale, tax-free?

Perhaps the biggest deception in the FairTax, however, is its promise to relieve individuals from having to file income tax returns, keep extensive financial records and potentially suffer audits. Judging by the emphasis FairTax supporters place on the idea of making April 15 just another day, this seems to be a major selling point for their proposal.

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OpinionJournal - Bruce Bartlett: national sales tax bad idea, rates of 89%?
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2007, 01:46:46 PM »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline normfromga

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2007, 12:24:32 PM »
See http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110010523

Plus the cost of all the refund checks.
Refunds would be done by direct deposit, unless the person does not have a bank account, then it would be sent by mail…just like any other benefit check/ refund.
Quote

Quote
Rejecting all the tricks of FairTax supporters and calculating the tax rate honestly--by including the higher spending that it mandates and by being realistic about what could actually be taxed--professional revenue estimators have always concluded that a national retail sales tax would have to be much, much higher than 23%.
A 2000 estimate by Congress's Joint Committee on Taxation found the tax-inclusive rate would have to be 36% and the tax-exclusive rate would be 57%. In 2005, the U.S. Treasury Department calculated that a tax-exclusive rate of 34% would be needed just to replace the income tax, leaving the payroll tax in place. But if evasion were high then the rate might have to rise to 49%. If the FairTax were only able to cover the limited sales tax base of a typical state, then a rate of 64% would be required (89% with high evasion).
Gee, if we presumed high evasion, we should all be in the 89% Income Tax bracket!  After all, it is assumed that hardly anyone would pay it.

One can cite any number you wish, but the important thing is that once it is established, unlike income tax rates, whose fluctuations we hardly notice except on payday, or, more significantly, on April 15th, people watch sale taxes like hawks.  Around here, if some school district wants a penny tax added to pay for some new schools, people are up in arms, and all kinds of hearings have to given to quell the populace.  Likewise, I think Congress would have to think twice about going too often to the well to finance unnecessary programs and projects.

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Quote
…But there are also massive technical and administrative problems with collecting all federal taxes at the checkout counter and relying entirely on state governments to collect the federal government's revenue.

Among the problems: What possible incentive would the states have to be vigorous in their federal tax collections? What is to stop them from slacking off and giving their citizens a tax cut at federal expense? What about states with no sales taxes?
If a state already collects sales tax, I am not sure of their incentive to slack off and not give the Feds their due.  I think this is referred to a “Honor among thieves.”  As for states with no sales tax, I am not sure what “Plan B” would be.  Perhaps the IRS will still have to collect taxes directly from merchants, just as they have done for payroll taxes.  May be it will be contracted out.  I don’t know.

Quote
Quote
What's to stop people from bypassing retail outlets and buying their goods from producers or at wholesale, tax-free?
  What is the incentive for a producer or wholesaler paying the sales tax on "lost" inventory out of pocket because they can’t prove they weren’t the end user?

Quote
Quote
Perhaps the biggest deception in the FairTax, however, is its promise to relieve individuals from having to file income tax returns, keep extensive financial records and potentially suffer audits. Judging by the emphasis FairTax supporters place on the idea of making April 15 just another day, this seems to be a major selling point for their proposal.

The “deception” cited was that many states will still have income taxes, some of which may be as convoluted as the Fed’s.

The answer is that perhaps voters will like the idea of eliminating this annual headache completely, and force their state to consider other methods of revenue enhancement, such as the sales tax.

I am not a big fan of “Fair Tax,” but I like red herrings even less…. ::frown::
« Last Edit: August 29, 2007, 07:09:44 AM by spurly »

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2007, 12:24:32 PM »



navyvet

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2007, 06:32:33 AM »
See http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110010523

Plus the cost of all the refund checks.
Refunds would be done by direct deposit, unless the person does not have a bank account, then it would be sent by mail…just like any other benefit check/ refund.
Quote

Quote
Rejecting all the tricks of FairTax supporters and calculating the tax rate honestly--by including the higher spending that it mandates and by being realistic about what could actually be taxed--professional revenue estimators have always concluded that a national retail sales tax would have to be much, much higher than 23%.
A 2000 estimate by Congress's Joint Committee on Taxation found the tax-inclusive rate would have to be 36% and the tax-exclusive rate would be 57%. In 2005, the U.S. Treasury Department calculated that a tax-exclusive rate of 34% would be needed just to replace the income tax, leaving the payroll tax in place. But if evasion were high then the rate might have to rise to 49%. If the FairTax were only able to cover the limited sales tax base of a typical state, then a rate of 64% would be required (89% with high evasion).
Gee, if we presumed high evasion, we should all be in the 89% Income Tax bracket!  After all, it is assumed that hardly anyone would pay it.

One can cite any number you wish, but the important thing is that once it is established, unlike income tax rates, whose fluctuations we hardly notice except on payday, or, more significantly, on April 15th, people watch sale taxes like hawks.  Around here, if some school district wants a penny tax added to pay for some new schools, people are up in arms, and all kinds of hearings have to given to quell the populace.  Likewise, I think Congress would have to think twice about going too often to the well to finance unnecessary programs and projects.

Quote
Quote
…But there are also massive technical and administrative problems with collecting all federal taxes at the checkout counter and relying entirely on state governments to collect the federal government's revenue.

Among the problems: What possible incentive would the states have to be vigorous in their federal tax collections? What is to stop them from slacking off and giving their citizens a tax cut at federal expense? What about states with no sales taxes?
If a state already collects sales tax, I am not sure of their incentive to slack off and not give the Feds their due.  I think this is referred to a “Honor among thieves.

Offline spurly

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2007, 07:09:20 AM »
See http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110010523

Plus the cost of all the refund checks.
Refunds would be done by direct deposit, unless the person does not have a bank account, then it would be sent by mail…just like any other benefit check/ refund.
Quote

Quote
Rejecting all the tricks of FairTax supporters and calculating the tax rate honestly--by including the higher spending that it mandates and by being realistic about what could actually be taxed--professional revenue estimators have always concluded that a national retail sales tax would have to be much, much higher than 23%.
A 2000 estimate by Congress's Joint Committee on Taxation found the tax-inclusive rate would have to be 36% and the tax-exclusive rate would be 57%. In 2005, the U.S. Treasury Department calculated that a tax-exclusive rate of 34% would be needed just to replace the income tax, leaving the payroll tax in place. But if evasion were high then the rate might have to rise to 49%. If the FairTax were only able to cover the limited sales tax base of a typical state, then a rate of 64% would be required (89% with high evasion).
Gee, if we presumed high evasion, we should all be in the 89% Income Tax bracket!  After all, it is assumed that hardly anyone would pay it.

One can cite any number you wish, but the important thing is that once it is established, unlike income tax rates, whose fluctuations we hardly notice except on payday, or, more significantly, on April 15th, people watch sale taxes like hawks.  Around here, if some school district wants a penny tax added to pay for some new schools, people are up in arms, and all kinds of hearings have to given to quell the populace.  Likewise, I think Congress would have to think twice about going too often to the well to finance unnecessary programs and projects.

Quote
Quote
…But there are also massive technical and administrative problems with collecting all federal taxes at the checkout counter and relying entirely on state governments to collect the federal government's revenue.

Among the problems: What possible incentive would the states have to be vigorous in their federal tax collections? What is to stop them from slacking off and giving their citizens a tax cut at federal expense? What about states with no sales taxes?
If a state already collects sales tax, I am not sure of their incentive to slack off and not give the Feds their due.  I think this is referred to a “Honor among thieves.”  As for states with no sales tax, I am not sure what “Plan B” would be.  Perhaps the IRS will still have to collect taxes directly from merchants, just as they have done for payroll taxes.  May be it will be contracted out.  I don’t know.

Quote
Quote
What's to stop people from bypassing retail outlets and buying their goods from producers or at wholesale, tax-free?
  What is the incentive for a producer or wholesaler paying the sales tax on "lost" inventory out of pocket because they can’t prove they weren’t the end user?

Quote
Quote
Perhaps the biggest deception in the FairTax, however, is its promise to relieve individuals from having to file income tax returns, keep extensive financial records and potentially suffer audits. Judging by the emphasis FairTax supporters place on the idea of making April 15 just another day, this seems to be a major selling point for their proposal.

The “deception” cited was that many states will still have income taxes, some of which may be as convoluted as the Fed’s.

The answer is that perhaps voters will like the idea of eliminating this annual headache completely, and force their state to consider other methods of revenue enhancement, such as the sales tax.

I am not a big fan of “Fair Tax,” but I like red herrings even less…. ::frown::


 
Filing on April 15th is not a headache.  It doesn't take much effort.  All one has to do is keep good records throughout the year and when it comes to April 15th, it's a snap entering the information on the required forms.  I've never understood where the headache comes from.  My guess is that it comes from not being organized.

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2007, 07:02:43 PM »

Filing on April 15th is not a headache.  It doesn't take much effort.  All one has to do is keep good records throughout the year and when it comes to April 15th, it's a snap entering the information on the required forms.  I've never understood where the headache comes from.  My guess is that it comes from not being organized.

You're exactly right.  I suspect that our clients who think April 15 is a big headache are those that keep sorry records and then we have to call to ask a lot of questions that requires them to do some digging.  On top of that, since their records are in such sorry shape, it means a much higher fee. 

Offline normfromga

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2007, 09:22:46 PM »
Bruce Bartlett, who wrote the article, seems to concur that "...to file income tax returns, keep extensive financial records and potentially suffer audits..." is commonly perceived as a headache, the Fair and Flat Tax proponents seem to think that it could be called a headache, without fear of contradiction, and most people I know who "rich" enough to file the long form, but too poor/cheap to have it done for them, think it is a headache, or perhaps a pain somewhere else...

In fact, the only ones I heard to say that April 15 is not a pain are those who have clients who "...think April 15 is a big headache..."

BTW, as I mentioned before, I am not a great proponent for Flat Tax, and was not aware of all the details.

I happened to watch a simulcast of Neal Boortz' radio program on CSPAN this AM, and on it, he was lecturing on Fair Tax, and mentioned that the tax will be included in the price of products, instead of adding it on like we currently do.  I don't like that idea because (1)it resembles the European Value Added Tax (VAT) and what good ever came out of Europe, and (2)just as with gasoline, when prices go up and down (usually up), we do not know if it is due to inflation in the cost of producing and selling the goods or just government "revenue re-enhancement"... ::shrug::

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2007, 10:07:02 PM »
Another thing that turns me against the Fair Tax is that when the youngest spawn of the sargeant major and myself slithers out of our dwelling to attend Lipscomb, we plan on selling the place and buying a condo.  Well, right now we can do it without any tax.  Would we be stuck with a tax on buying the condo?

Well, if Bin Laden shows up to start attending classes at the Memphis School of Preaching, then maybe the Fair Tax might actually be a possibility.

ravenlorre

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2007, 10:29:38 PM »

(Data from the IRS)


“Only the little people pay taxes,

Offline normfromga

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2007, 06:59:09 AM »


“Only the little people pay taxes,

Offline kanham

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2007, 10:51:59 AM »

In the U.S. we have created something and called it the middle class because it sounds nicer and better and doesn’t make us feel as responsible to others, let the rich pay their fair share etc.

In the end if you look at the history of humanity our middle class is simply a part of the rich. If we thought of ourselves as rich I would hope it would make us feel a greater burden for others.

Considering the statistics on the charitable giving of Americans I hardly think we have a lot of room to point fingers. No one gives a lot and everyone has an excuse as to why.

I agree that the issue isn’t wealth but it is what you do with your wealth. That early church seemed awfully generous so something about their understanding led them to give freely.

Christianity is supposed to be the voluntary redistribution of wealth. The only difference between what some want is they want it to be forced redistribution. Unfortunately since the church doesn’t even do a good job of redistribution the government has tried to step in. Without the spiritual truth of Christ it simply becomes a mess but that doesn’t change the fact that redistribution is expected by God.

“What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

Offline spurly

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2007, 10:54:04 AM »
Kanham, for that post you received your 200th manna.  Great post my friend.

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2007, 11:49:19 AM »

In the U.S. we have created something and called it the middle class because it sounds nicer and better and doesn’t make us feel as responsible to others, let the rich pay their fair share etc.

In the end if you look at the history of humanity our middle class is simply a part of the rich. If we thought of ourselves as rich I would hope it would make us feel a greater burden for others.

Considering the statistics on the charitable giving of Americans I hardly think we have a lot of room to point fingers. No one gives a lot and everyone has an excuse as to why.

I agree that the issue isn’t wealth but it is what you do with your wealth. That early church seemed awfully generous so something about their understanding led them to give freely.

Christianity is supposed to be the voluntary redistribution of wealth. The only difference between what some want is they want it to be forced redistribution. Unfortunately since the church doesn’t even do a good job of redistribution the government has tried to step in. Without the spiritual truth of Christ it simply becomes a mess but that doesn’t change the fact that redistribution is expected by God.

“What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.