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Author Topic: Who Pays Taxes in America?  (Read 52328 times)

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Offline Johnb

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #35 on: Mon Dec 31, 2007 - 22:20:39 »
I am not a CEO or any of those you spoke about.  But I can testify that the American dream is alive and well for those who want it work for and prepare themselves for it.  All those things you talked about are simply part of the capitalistic system that we live in.  Thank God we do not live in a socialist system yet.  That seems to be what you want.

If you believe rich people pay no taxes how do you explain the facts stated at the beginning of his thread that shows most taxes are paid by the top %5 of earners?

To quote Ken Hamblin (also known as the black avenger) "Pick a better country."

I have traveled to other countries. The 3d world counties are truly poor.  Our poorest are rich beyond measure compared to them.

There are over 175 other nations in the world if you don't like this one pick another and move there.  Later Johnb

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #35 on: Mon Dec 31, 2007 - 22:20:39 »

Offline Johnb

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #36 on: Tue Jan 01, 2008 - 13:50:56 »
Villa said
To really be a true Christian you have to realize this.  On judgement day Jesus will point things out like this to you. You will say you didn't know these things were going on. Jesus will say yes you did, Villa told you!


Not really!  He did not care if one was a slave or master. (He did not condem slavery)  He told all to serve God in whatever their station in life.  He came to save those who are lost not preach a "social gospel".

In this country anyone who wants can get ahead.  If you don't like your circumstanses you can change them or wine about it.  The choice is yours.  Later Johnb

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #36 on: Tue Jan 01, 2008 - 13:50:56 »

Offline Johnb

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #37 on: Tue Jan 01, 2008 - 16:48:03 »
Not saying He endorced it.  He just did not address it.  He told the slave to obey his master and the master to treat them fairly.  The important thing is that we serve Him.  The life of a Christian will wipe these things our for those in Christ.  In Christ there is not male or female or slave....   The point is rich or poor or in between one is to serve Christ regardless of their station in life.  If you want to be a bleeding heart liberal that has no clue about how a captalistic system works be my guest.  But don't try to say it is the willof God that we turn this great country into a socialist society.  Most folks make the bed they have to lay in.  Later Johnb

Offline Johnb

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #38 on: Tue Jan 01, 2008 - 17:34:27 »
Book chapter and verse please.

If we are to give all our money away why worry about who is paying taxes and who is not.  Regardless the top 5% pay most of the taxes.  What do you think would be fair?  Is it the job of the government to take all the money from the rich and give to the poor.  They will stop working then who will support the rest? 

The reason some rich hire tax lawyers is because it is cheaper than paying the 90% tax that was in effect when John Kennedy took office.  He understood that when it becomes more advantageos to pay taxes than lawyers they pay the taxes and the revenue goes up.  They invest more in their business and more folks get jobs.

Instead of whining about it being unfair for some to have more why don't you go get yourself a piece of the American dream.    After you have worked and risk every thing you have to make your first million see how you like the idea of giving most of it to those unwilling to work.  Later Johnb 

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #38 on: Tue Jan 01, 2008 - 17:34:27 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline Johnb

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #39 on: Thu Jan 03, 2008 - 07:56:14 »
Villa

When you shuck the corn down to the cob we are closer than it appears.  The truly poor pay no income taxing this country.  We have the best safety net of any country in the world.  We can always in prove on our system.  I am a flat sales tax man (with rebate for the base line living that way the truly poor continues to pay nothing and he who spends the most money pays the most tax)  Likewise our system and God have been good to me.  We support over 30 good causes plus the church we attend.  While our tax system has some flaws I do not believe it is unfair.  I have had a lot of rich men offer me jobs in my life but not one poor man.  I have also worked directly for some rich men including 1 billionare; they all have given to good causes in addition to their taxes.  I believe we as Christians have a responsibility to help those who are in need.  That being said I do not agree with the expandining entitlement programs.  I do not believe in a free society we ought to take from the rich to support every entitlement program that comes along.  That has led to the economic ruin of every nation who has attempted it and distroys the work ethic.  (he who does not work does not eat)  We are entitled to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  Not a full government retirement, universal health care , free or low cost housing and free ride for those who come here illegally.  Later Johnb 

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #39 on: Thu Jan 03, 2008 - 07:56:14 »



Offline Johnb

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #40 on: Thu Jan 03, 2008 - 18:08:32 »
Amen.  This is the responsibility of Christians.  Later Johnb

Offline Brandonspopo

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #41 on: Thu Jan 03, 2008 - 21:25:27 »
5 cents out of every dollar earned with no loopholes is a fair tax system. ::holdingupflag::

Offline Johnb

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #42 on: Sat Jan 05, 2008 - 18:25:31 »
5 cents out of every dollar earned with no loopholes is a fair tax system

Sounds fair to me but just to keep doing what we are doing now would mean many times that.  This is one of the reasons it is hard to get a flat tax off the ground.  They don't want you to know how much of your pay is going to taxes.  Count all the different taxes you pay now and you will discover it is over 50% of what you earm.  Later Johnb.

PS  Many don't know that for over 150 years we had no income tax.  When it was first pasted it was limited to 1 half of 1 percent.  Later Johnb

Offline Nevertheless

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #43 on: Sat Jan 05, 2008 - 23:42:11 »
   Christ said to give all your money to the poor.

The key word in that sentence is give.

Taxation is not giving, it is taking. Whatever money is taken from me through taxes is money I cannot give.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #44 on: Sun Jan 06, 2008 - 07:46:56 »
Never
I ask Villa where Jesus gave a generic command for all Christians to give away all their money.  It does not exist.  Your are correct that having it taken by the government is not the same.  I personally resent been made to give up what I worked for for many who will not work.  When I find situations or causes I believe are in need I help.  Big difference.  Johnb

Offline Dunamite

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #45 on: Tue Jan 08, 2008 - 09:04:21 »
The American dream is not a myth.  I am living it.  Rags to riches still happens in the USA the greatest nation on earth.
You miss the point. If there are winners, there must be losers. Your American dream was coming true is at the expense of someone else, actually probably lots of other people. I am not saying that you can't get ahead in America. I am saying that you get ahead on the backs of someone else.

It is easy to create contrasts and extremes. If you create conditions ripe for exploitation then you should not be surprised when exploitation occurs. That is what America is about.

The myth of the Americans dream is that America produces wealth. In reality, it just redistributes wealth, and it does it unfairly. It goes to where the wealth is and takes it. It is about pillaging the environment and taking from others, not producing. The country was taken, by force. Repeatedly and systematically. From the Indians. From the Mexicans. Slavery was used to leverage advantage. Industrial wealth was created through child labor, sweatshops, and lack of concern for the safety and welfare of others. Now we are more careful and do our exploitation offshore, but it is still the same thing and the beneficiaries are the same. We have replaced those jobs with low wage service jobs domestically. Whatever, scenario you care to look at it is the same thing.

There is a cost to this wealth. America is a study in contrasts. For every wealthy person there are dozens of people living in poverty. We blame to poor for their lot. It is there fault that they live that way. They too could be like me if only they had my ... But that is the unspoken lie. Not everyone can be rich. If everyone was rich then we wouldn't be rich, would we? Wealth requires that others live in poverty. It is just a question of who gets the dirty end of the stick. That is the American dream. Do it to someone else or you will have it done to you.

Jesus had a heart for the poor, for widows, and for the sick. He asked that we have the same concern. How can a rich Christian live with his wealth and faith? It is a challenge, like a camel fitting through the eye of a needle. Remember? James said:

1Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. 2Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.[a] 6You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you. (James 5)

We are all rich, by the standards of the world. Even the poorest of us is rich compared to the lot of someone living in poverty in Africa or Asia. That is the cost of our wealth. Rich nation exploits poor nation, just as a rich person exploits a poor person. We can close our eyes to what is happening around us, but that does not change the circumstances.

There is a great danger in trying to justify our wealth. There is great danger in watching our money grow while others starve. We can grow hard hearted because we see the poor and do not want to be like them. We fear losing our wealth so we hold onto it more tightly. We justify the indefensible, so that we can go on living as if nothing has changed. But something has changed. We will all stand before God in judgment someday.

I am a professional. I live a comfortable, privileged life in a clean, secure and prosperous country. I came from working class parents, educated myself and got ahead. I have paid lots in taxes over the years, but have never resented it. In fact, like Warren Buffett, I think that my taxes should be higher. I think that others deserve a break. Still, I don't think that this gets me off the hook with God.

I feel helpless in face of a monumental problem. The gap between rich and poor has been widening for decades now. The middle class is a myth. People live in middle class comfort and a great deal of debt. Both parents now work to make ends meet. We are guilty of living too high, but that is another story.

Middle class workers are the new serfs. They are being bombarded with advertising by corporations who want you to buy everything under the sun, so that they can get rich. People are told to consume and they do. But they live in servitude, not to lords of the medieval era, but to banks. They are on a treadmill and they must always do more to get less. People don't have to live this way, but this is what the economy is built around, consumption. If they stop consuming everyone loses. Or do they?

Is there an alternative? Have we built a house of cards that is going to come crashing down? The Bible says that it will all end some day. As James said, what good will our wealth be then? Much of what we do is wasted effort. Living a comfortable life now will only come back to bite us in the end.

By helping others we help ourselves. By giving away some of what we have, we can make a difference. By creating a level playing field we can do away with privilege and sloth. It doesn't have to be painful, but it should be. Jesus told us that giving from our surplus is not the same as giving something of value.

What we don't need is apologists for exploitation of the poor. I can't see how any Christian in good conscience can do this. I am a voice in the wilderness, I know. I am a minority, especially as long as people hold onto myths, like the American dream.

Blessings,
Dunamite

Offline Johnb

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #46 on: Tue Jan 08, 2008 - 12:36:53 »
There is no sin in being successful.  With it comes the responsibility to help those in need.  That is what Matt. 25 is saying not that you have to be poor or give everything away.  It is putting your faith in riches that is wrong.  I refuse to feel guilty for being successful.

Dunamite that is the biggest bunch of dribble and cop-out I have ever heard.  It does not follow that if one person is successful someone else must fail.  It is not a sum total situation.  I understand both failure and success. There was a time that I cut firewood for a living and had to use a child's sled and pull firewood out of the woods over a foot of snow for my own family because I had sold all I had to buy food.  I have met the Electric Company at the meter and paid my bill with a check that I could not cover at that time. I have been the only guy with 2 post graduate degrees working the tail end of a sawmill because I had gone broke in business. But I never once received welfare or ask or expected someone besides me to take care of my family. 
   We are in a world economy.  If there is no new wealth how does the GNP increase above inflation year after year.  I believe we should help those truly in need and those unable to work.  I feel no need to support those who refuse to work and believe they are entitled to part of everyone else’s income even if they refuse to work.

By the way the American dream is to have a good standard of living and own their own home not for everyone to be rich.  That is possible.  The exceptions are those who are unable to work because of physical or mental conditions or life’s circumstances. These we have an obligation as a nation to help.  We as Christians have an obligation to help those in need.  If Christians fulfilled their obligation we would not need the government to extort money from some to help others.  We need to quit blaming the government for not helping and help others as Christians.  When was the last time the congregation you worship at paid someone’s house payment or electric bill or bought clothes and food for the month for a family in need?  Not only does the small church I attend do this on a regular bases I do it personally almost every month.  If you don't have the ability to do that yourself, either work harder and be successful or get enough Christians together to do this and quit expecting the government to do our Christian duty.  Later Johnb

Offline Nevertheless

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #47 on: Tue Jan 08, 2008 - 14:32:25 »
You go Johnb!!

Offline spurly

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #48 on: Tue Jan 08, 2008 - 15:59:17 »
The American dream is not a myth.  I am living it.  Rags to riches still happens in the USA the greatest nation on earth.
You miss the point. If there are winners, there must be losers. Your American dream was coming true is at the expense of someone else, actually probably lots of other people. I am not saying that you can't get ahead in America. I am saying that you get ahead on the backs of someone else.

...

Blessings,
Dunamite

Dunamite, one person's success does not equal the failure of others.  One does not have to step on others or keep others down in order to be successful.  Where did you get your economics education?

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #49 on: Thu Jan 10, 2008 - 08:21:28 »
If there are winners, there must be losers.

Bull butter.  Not a dollar changes hands in the free market until both sides of the transaction consider themselves as winners.  When I buy a jug of milk, it is because I would rather have the milk than the $3+ in my pocket and the grocer would rather have the $3+ in my pocket than the jug of milk.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #50 on: Tue Jan 15, 2008 - 07:13:22 »
"Well all righty then."

Offline Dunamite

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #51 on: Fri Jan 18, 2008 - 11:36:22 »
If there are winners, there must be losers.

Bull butter.  Not a dollar changes hands in the free market until both sides of the transaction consider themselves as winners.  When I buy a jug of milk, it is because I would rather have the milk than the $3+ in my pocket and the grocer would rather have the $3+ in my pocket than the jug of milk.
We aren't going to come to an agreement on this and that is okay with me. I will continue to rail against the world because I know that the world is corrupt and evil. I don't think that it is selective in its corruption. I don't think that any part is redeemable. That is why Jesus will return and make it anew. I am sure that we can come to some agreement on this.

My dilemma re: capitalism is found in the book of Revelations, chapter 13. Christians will not be able to buy and sell in the last days. It says that nobody will unless they have the name of the Beast on them. So exactly when does this so called free market become corrupted by the Beast?

I think that it has already become corrupted, hence my criticisms of capitalism. I also take seriously James' warning not to become "polluted by the world" (James 1: 27) and john's admonishes not to become enamored with the world and worldly ways (1 John 2: 15 - 17). In fact he tells us to reject "everything" of the world. I am afraid that I do not have the luxury to be selective. John did not leave that option open to me.

John and James are both writing about what makes an authentic Christian. He tells us that there are counterfeits among us. John says that there are antichrists and false prophets among us now. He tells us how to discern truth from deception.

I refuse to pimp for capitalism. I refuse to bow down at their altar of greed and accept it. I recognize that the objective of corporations is world domination. I also see that governments are playing along with them. National borders are being erased as ever larger trade groups emerge. Communism should be feared. It is insidious, but it is on the decline. What is on the ascendancy is capitalism. I do not fear it because I know that this is what the Bible predicts. I also am not so foolish to ignore it.

People have said that it is okay to be successful. They clearly measure success with a different yardstick. You cannot take any of your worldly wealth with you. It is a hindrance to your entrance into Heaven and it a distraction from all that really matters. Wealth and privilege are not God's way. You can chase after whatever dreams you wish, but you cannot justify it. If wealth is so good, then James was wrong.

James 5:  1 Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. 2 Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4 Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5 You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter. 6 You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you.

Wal-mart is a good corporate citizen. It has several lawsuits against it for its mistreatment of workers. Burger King has opposed giving basic benefits to migrant workers. Nike has used child labor and had women in the  third world working in sweat shops. Microsoft has been found guilty of using unfair business practices. The EU continues to investigate them for new unfair practices years after they were found guilty. Worldcom, Enron. the list goes on and on.

My message is not popular. Nobody wants to believe that they are being duped. I don't have many allies here, but I do have many allies elsewhere. Here are some of my allies. Notice the trend goes back centuries and cover the complete political spectrum. It isn't a new message, but it is one that has been repeated in the past. Nobody heeded then either. Most of you will skip over this part because you do not want to listen. That is your choice. God gave us free will.

Only Americans can hurt America. ~ Dwight D. Eisenhower

Now those who seek absolute power, even though they seek it to do what they regard as good, are simply demanding the right to enforce their own version of heaven on earth, and let me remind you they are the very ones who always create the most hellish tyranny: Barry Goldwater

I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its  reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed.   --President Abraham Lincoln, 1865

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." : Thomas Jefferson

We’re not a democracy. It’s a terrible misunderstanding and a slander to the idea of democracy to call us that. In reality, we’re a plutocracy: a government by the wealthy.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #52 on: Sat Jan 19, 2008 - 08:09:36 »
When the Jews made up their mind how God would fulfill His prophecy they missed the comming of the Son of God.  The book have Rev.  Has been used in an attempt to prove every kook idea that comes along.  I will let God (like He needs my premission) decide how and when He will fulfill His prophecy.  Your theory is so off the wall it doesn't deserve further comment.  Later johnb 

"Rev. Good guys win bad guys lose.."

Offline Dave...

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #53 on: Thu Jan 24, 2008 - 06:11:28 »
Quote
Your theory is so off the wall it doesn't deserve further comment.  Later johnb 

Exactly! That stuff is so typical of what is being taught in schools today. Even in college, believe it or not. Communism must be more fair, right? The war, indians....sigh! It's all the fault of capitolism, right? Red flags everywhere...who will take the time to go over all these things with a person that allowed themselves to get to that point to begin with?

Not me...

Offline Johnb

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #54 on: Sat Jan 26, 2008 - 07:39:26 »
Dave
was that quote from this thread?  I can not find it. 

OK I found it.  Thought it might be something I said about one of your posts.  ( One of those senior moments I guess). 

You are right.  I once got a B in a political science class because I disagreed with the teacher.  I would answer her questions with all the points she had made in class then I would add but here is what I think.  Even though I regurgitated every point she wanted she would take off  because I added my thoughts.  She was not intellectually honest enough to tolerate one who disagreed with her and I was to stubborn to not disagree with her.  Later Johnb
« Last Edit: Sat Jan 26, 2008 - 07:51:44 by Johnb »

Offline admin

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #55 on: Sun Jan 27, 2008 - 16:06:07 »
Dunamite misses it is in many ways. The idea that to be wealthy someone else has to be poor is simply incorrect.

When you have money, you spend money. Rich people don't bury their money in buckets in the backyard. They build houses, buy food, cars, computers, televisions, books, phones, paint, vacations, clothing, soap, jewelry, paper, gas, electricity, toys, etc. And who gets that money? Other people who provide those products and services. Money does not just sit still.

If anything, the more wealthy someone is the MORE others benefit from them. This is because wealthy people hire stock brokers, accountants and financial consultants to make sure their money is WORKING and not lying around. So in addition to employing the financial experts, they invest their money into start up companies, charities, established businesses, new ideas--all of which employee people and provide new jobs and opportunities.

The idea that when one person pops out on the rich side another person pops out on the poor side is just simpleminded and inaccurate. The vast majority of wealthy people do not step on the backs of others or "exploit" others to be wealthy. Quite the opposite. They become wealthy by providing services and products to people. There is a well known saying among people starting small businesses. It says, "If you want to live with the masses, serve the classes. If you want to live with the classes, serve the masses."

Basically, the wealthy have found a way to provide something that the masses want or need. Just the opposite of exploitation. People with political motivations have tried to create class envy and hatred, where the poor are jealous of or just plain hate the rich. That is the wrong attitude and shows just how shallow that person's politics really are.

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #56 on: Sun Jan 27, 2008 - 17:46:19 »
Here's an example of a man who never made more than $11 who was wise with his money, lived within (or below) his means and reaped the benefits. He is a millionaire who didn't "exploit" anyone. He merely invested his money. We use that phrase "invest" a lot, but when you invest what you are really doing is investing in other people's businesses and in fact investing in other people because it helps those businesses further the products they offer and the jobs that come from those.

Anyway, the liberals would have you believe that you are born rich or poor and it's not based on your efforts. But this man is proof that, in America, it's possible for you to make a mediocre income and become wealthy. The Story

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #57 on: Mon Jan 28, 2008 - 22:30:47 »
Dunamite misses it is in many ways. The idea that to be wealthy someone else has to be poor is simply incorrect.


Dunamite said "If there are winners, there must be losers."

Well, I bought lunch today down at Pastabilities.  Lasagna, salad, and a Newcastle beer.  Give us the boxscore, Dunamite.  I want to know who won and who lost.

Offline janine

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #58 on: Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 04:26:04 »
The people who had to wash your dishes and clean your table?

Offline janine

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #59 on: Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 04:26:44 »
'Cause, like, everyone knows honest labor for an honest buck is just The Man taking advantage of the downtrodden.

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #60 on: Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 08:27:41 »
'Cause, like, everyone knows honest labor for an honest buck is just The Man taking advantage of the downtrodden.

While I was sitting there, wondering if I was winning or losing, some dude came in and asked one of the owners to be put in the lineup.  Either he didn't have a job or didn't like the one he had.  Either way, he seemed to think getting a gig there would be a win.

Offline Nevertheless

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #61 on: Fri Feb 01, 2008 - 21:38:07 »
Oh the poor misled fool! He thinks he should work for a living.  **sigh**

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #62 on: Mon Mar 17, 2008 - 08:21:29 »
The American dream is not a myth.  I am living it.  Rags to riches still happens in the USA the greatest nation on earth.
You miss the point. If there are winners, there must be losers. Your American dream was coming true is at the expense of someone else, actually probably lots of other people. I am not saying that you can't get ahead in America. I am saying that you get ahead on the backs of someone else.

It is easy to create contrasts and extremes. If you create conditions ripe for exploitation then you should not be surprised when exploitation occurs. That is what America is about.

The myth of the Americans dream is that America produces wealth. In reality, it just redistributes wealth, and it does it unfairly. It goes to where the wealth is and takes it. It is about pillaging the environment and taking from others, not producing. The country was taken, by force. Repeatedly and systematically. From the Indians. From the Mexicans. Slavery was used to leverage advantage. Industrial wealth was created through child labor, sweatshops, and lack of concern for the safety and welfare of others. Now we are more careful and do our exploitation offshore, but it is still the same thing and the beneficiaries are the same. We have replaced those jobs with low wage service jobs domestically. Whatever, scenario you care to look at it is the same thing.

There is a cost to this wealth. America is a study in contrasts. For every wealthy person there are dozens of people living in poverty. We blame to poor for their lot. It is there fault that they live that way. They too could be like me if only they had my ... But that is the unspoken lie. Not everyone can be rich. If everyone was rich then we wouldn't be rich, would we? Wealth requires that others live in poverty. It is just a question of who gets the dirty end of the stick. That is the American dream. Do it to someone else or you will have it done to you.

Jesus had a heart for the poor, for widows, and for the sick. He asked that we have the same concern. How can a rich Christian live with his wealth and faith? It is a challenge, like a camel fitting through the eye of a needle. Remember? James said:

1Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. 2Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.[a] 6You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you. (James 5)

We are all rich, by the standards of the world. Even the poorest of us is rich compared to the lot of someone living in poverty in Africa or Asia. That is the cost of our wealth. Rich nation exploits poor nation, just as a rich person exploits a poor person. We can close our eyes to what is happening around us, but that does not change the circumstances.

There is a great danger in trying to justify our wealth. There is great danger in watching our money grow while others starve. We can grow hard hearted because we see the poor and do not want to be like them. We fear losing our wealth so we hold onto it more tightly. We justify the indefensible, so that we can go on living as if nothing has changed. But something has changed. We will all stand before God in judgment someday.

I am a professional. I live a comfortable, privileged life in a clean, secure and prosperous country. I came from working class parents, educated myself and got ahead. I have paid lots in taxes over the years, but have never resented it. In fact, like Warren Buffett, I think that my taxes should be higher. I think that others deserve a break. Still, I don't think that this gets me off the hook with God.

I feel helpless in face of a monumental problem. The gap between rich and poor has been widening for decades now. The middle class is a myth. People live in middle class comfort and a great deal of debt. Both parents now work to make ends meet. We are guilty of living too high, but that is another story.

Middle class workers are the new serfs. They are being bombarded with advertising by corporations who want you to buy everything under the sun, so that they can get rich. People are told to consume and they do. But they live in servitude, not to lords of the medieval era, but to banks. They are on a treadmill and they must always do more to get less. People don't have to live this way, but this is what the economy is built around, consumption. If they stop consuming everyone loses. Or do they?

Is there an alternative? Have we built a house of cards that is going to come crashing down? The Bible says that it will all end some day. As James said, what good will our wealth be then? Much of what we do is wasted effort. Living a comfortable life now will only come back to bite us in the end.

By helping others we help ourselves. By giving away some of what we have, we can make a difference. By creating a level playing field we can do away with privilege and sloth. It doesn't have to be painful, but it should be. Jesus told us that giving from our surplus is not the same as giving something of value.

What we don't need is apologists for exploitation of the poor. I can't see how any Christian in good conscience can do this. I am a voice in the wilderness, I know. I am a minority, especially as long as people hold onto myths, like the American dream.

Blessings,
Dunamite

What a bunch of socialistic crap.  Why is it that these people think that giving someone a job so that they can take care of themselves is exploitation?

Offline admin

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #63 on: Thu Apr 24, 2008 - 12:23:20 »
Because socialists basically are not against people working.....just as long as it's not them. They want YOU to work to pay them not working because if they did work to earn a living that would just be...exploitation. And don't you dare think about joining with other people to earn money because that would be an EEEEEEVIL corporation. And if that EEEEEEEVIL corporation offered someone money to do some work that is exploitation.

 ::aloneinclearlogic::

It really is immature isn't it? But Barack Obama sure seems to want socialism.

ATTENTION SOCIALISTS! There are other countries on this planet who have socialistic systems. Feel free to go to them if you don't like it here. Just watch out for the people floating on wooden doors risking their life to make it here to the land of the free.

Offline Frankie

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #64 on: Thu Jul 03, 2008 - 19:53:53 »
The original question was "Who pays taxes in America". The very bottom line answer t that questions is simple:

Individual American citizens pay all the taxes the government collects.

Any questions?

Offline admin

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #65 on: Wed Jul 09, 2008 - 21:07:02 »

Source: SOI Bulletin, Statistics of Income Division, Table 6. Zero tax liability figures from The Tax Foundation, Summary of Latest Federal Individual Income Tax Data, Fiscal Fact No. 104.

Offline Frankie

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #66 on: Sun Jul 13, 2008 - 13:59:47 »
...and that diagram only shows who is paying "Income tax'. The high wage earners are also paying the lions share of property taxes, sales tax, and other consumption taxes, etc.

If everyone is so worried about who pays what taxes, might I recommend the "Fair Tax". It eliminates all other taxes, including taxes embedded in everything we buy (which accounts for approx. 22-23% of a product's selling price, before sales tax is added in.
It eliminates the tax on the essentials of life (food and clothing), and allow everyone to take home their gross earnings.

The Fair Tax is essentially a national sales tax, and is fixed at 22%. The only exemptions as stated above are food and clothing. No tax on either. Also, the Fair Tax is only assessed on NEW products. Meaning no taxes on used items from toys to houses.

For me, the biggest plus was the elimination of the IRS as a government entity!!!! ::clappingoverhead::

Being a "consumption tax". The only thing you pay taxes on is what you buy. There is an exemption for low wage earners. That's it.

While Liberals always try to talk down the "Fair Tax", all the arguments they've used so far have been fictitious, deliberately misleading, wrong, or out and out lies. So much so that the authors of the Fair Tax Book, Neil Boortz and John Linder have written a second book on the idea called "The Fair Tax: Answering the Critics". It address each and every comment  made against the Fair Tax by it detractors. 

Even if your mind is closed to anything other than Liberal ideas, you might like to read the "Fair Tax Book" and "Answering the Critics" before make up your mind against it.

I've read it, and the idea seems to be the most fair and equitable solution to taxation in America, that I've seen. 

Offline Jaime

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #67 on: Mon Jul 14, 2008 - 21:29:03 »
I wonder what income range corresponds with Admins chart. In other words, what income range makes up the top 1 percent of income earners? That would help show why middle class tax cuts alone will not spur as much economic growth.

Offline stevehut

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #68 on: Sat Jul 19, 2008 - 09:43:08 »
honest labor for an honest buck is just The Man taking advantage of the downtrodden.

??? ?  What would you suggest as an alternative model?

Offline stevehut

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Re: Who Pays Taxes in America?
« Reply #69 on: Sun Jul 20, 2008 - 08:38:28 »
When the top 1% of the population controls more of the nation's wealth than the bottom 90%, you cease to have a functioning democracy.
I think you're missing something very important here, jgarden:

It's the richest 1% that create the wealth.  They're the ones that build the factories and build the stores that gives us all jobs and stuff to buy.

And when they invest those billions, are they not entitled to profit?  What kind of system would you propose as an alternative?   ::shrug::