Presbyterian Church Votes For Gay Marriage

[Tyler]

In a monumental move, the nation's largest Presbyterian denomination voted Thursday to change its definition of marriage and allow its pastors to officiate same-sex ceremonies in states where gay marriage is legal.

By a vote of 429-175, leaders of the 1.76 million-member Presbyterian Church (USA) voted during the biennial General Assembly in Detroit to change the denomination's Book of Order to describe marriage as being between "two people."
The decision opens a path toward gay marriage across the denomination's 10,000 churches."

Really?---this should be no surprise---This is the same denomination that Alexander Campbell had the biblical knowledge to get the H out of.
I have put this on the coC forum in thanking God for men like Campbell who blazed the trail in America for Restoration who saw "the writing on the wall."

This is the same denomination that will inform me that they are "led by the Holy Spirit" and will quote their "Westminster Confession of Faith" that says, "God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever come to pass (III.i).

I am embarrassed for those denominations who hold to this form of doctrine. The Word has become a "dead letter."
Think not? read it again---(They) "CHANGED their 'Book of Order' to describe marriage" to pacify the gay community.
Why? Well read their CONFESSION again---"God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His OWN WILL, freely and changeably ordain whatsoever come to pass."

So the Presbyterian Church by a vote 425-175 to overrule Romans 1 and abide by the WCOF.
Must be legit---because the Presbyterian Church is led by God. Says so-- right there in their Confession.

[Alan]

As per Michael Brown's editorial, it's time to leave the Presbyterian Church (USA).


I agree, this public decree is nothing short of embarrassing for Christians, yet the Presbyterian Church of America seems to be holding fast to a more Biblical based doctrine but has only 25% membership to that of PCUSA. Praying that many of the members find truth in the PCA or other truthful denominations rather than choosing the "wide gate".

[e.r.m.]

Are they any less guilty then churches back in the day who would justify religious hatred of homosexuals? Allowing gay marriage is bad, but we don't give as much attention to those who allowed hatred in the past.

[chosenone]

I hope that many will leave those churches. I know an anglican vicar locally who thinks that eventually he and many other will need to leave the anglican church for the same reason, and probably set up an alternative church.

[Alan]

Are they any less guilty then churches back in the day who would justify religious hatred of homosexuals? Allowing gay marriage is bad, but we don't give as much attention to those who allowed hatred in the past.

Agreed, hate is equally bad. It isn't necessarily that the only two available choices are hatred or unity, there exists much more acceptance in churches today when bigotry is placed aside to make room for God's children, however lost they may be. People respond much better when they are treated like human beings rather than cast-outs and in exercising some compassion we can minister truth to these people, if they reject us for speaking truth then so be it but we can rest in the fact that we did what was right in the eyes of the Lord rather than form a posse to run them off, or cave to the pressures of liberal humanity. 

[Tyler]

Allen: "Agreed, hate is equally bad. It isn't necessarily that the only two available choices are hatred or unity, there exists much more acceptance in churches today when bigotry is placed aside to make room for God's children, however lost they may be. People respond much better when they are treated like human beings rather than cast-outs and in exercising some compassion we can minister truth to these people, if they reject us for speaking truth then so be it but we can rest in the fact that we did what was right in the eyes of the Lord rather than form a posse to run them off, or cave to the pressures of liberal humanity."

Paul---by inspiration: "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools; and changed the glory (character) of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things." Romans 1:17ff.
I note here that Paul is not faulting anyone but the individual that chooses to change the character of the God that has revealed himself. We are not at liberty to pussy foot around with those who choose to change the character of the uncorruptible God.
Paul has written: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." The word is "wrath" here, not "love."

"God HAS revealed himself"---not by whispering in the sinner's ear, or by shadowy, subconscious feedback in a moment of  inexplicit, sensual, telepathic hunches.
But God has "revealed from the heavens the creation of the world. That which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has shown it unto them."
Let the Word speak--"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world  CLEARLY seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without EXCUSE."

When men cannot look into the heavens and see the Hand of a Creator---there isn't a hell of a lot I can do for him. "Because that when they KNEW God, they glorified him NOT as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their IMAGINATIONS. Please note where men become VAIN.
J.W. McGarvey writes: "The audacity of the attempt to reason God out of existence has invariably turned the brain of man (Ps. 53:1), and the excess of self-conceit and vanity developed by such an undertaking has uniformly resulted in pitiable folly." (Commentary on Romans).

I have been around barn yard animals all my life. I have found that no matter how I pet and make over them with fidelity and tasty treats today---tomorrow they will revert back to animals.
These "four legged creatures" (I never fool around with feathered fowl) have an excuse--man does NOT.

Paul writes: "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of THEIR own hearts, to dishonor THEIR own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever Amen."

Now, for you pansy preachers with love in your innards the following is "R" rated so you may want to go over to the theological forum and join in with the Kumbaya singers. --But, don't say I didn't tell ya---
"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even THEIR women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the women, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of THEIR  error."

Until men come to the realization that this is SIN in the mind of God-- where man is LOST, you can pray against this sin till your socks fall off, but only in the gospel is there found the "power" to change the mind of men to turn to God. "For it is appointed unto men once to die, but after that the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27). He will judge men by the authority found in His words, written by His apostles (John 17:20; Acts 2:42), not the Presbyterian Church's "Book of Order."

"And even as THEY  did not like to retain God in THEIR  knowledge, God GAVE THEM over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting.
Interesting is it not--
While the Presbyterian Church has decided by a vote of 429 to 175 to hook these reprobates up by a vote. "God has given them over to a reprobate mind."
When God gives up on you---it is not about "hate," it is about "choice." Choice to NOT retain God "in knowledge."
Paul writes: "who knowing the judgment of God, that which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but has pleasure in them that do them."
The sin of sodomy was common among idolaters. Paul inform that when men and women slide to the depth of depravity----"death" was a just punishment for their departure from God.

So, the Presbyterian Church votes to rehabilitate this sin by marriage vows.
Really---you can't make this up-- Think I will go back and pet my old coon dog. I feel sorry for him that he doesn't have a choice---cause he is a great hound, never does he track and tree trash.
 

[e.r.m.]

Alan, I agree.

Tyler, you got issues. No one here (I hope) is defending homosexuality, but if you hate that sin that much, then you're hatred for all other sin should be equal, (e.g. - a heterosexual unmarried couple having sex, a person cheating on their tax return, a person listing a lower price on his/her purchase of a vehicle so he can pay less taxes, stealing cable, buying/selling bootleg movies). To elevate homosexuality above other sins is to show one's personal bias. It doesn't reflect God's attitude. Hating homosexuals doesn't bring them to God, it pushes them further away.

[Alan]

Allen: "Agreed, hate is equally bad. It isn't necessarily that the only two available choices are hatred or unity, there exists much more acceptance in churches today when bigotry is placed aside to make room for God's children, however lost they may be. People respond much better when they are treated like human beings rather than cast-outs and in exercising some compassion we can minister truth to these people, if they reject us for speaking truth then so be it but we can rest in the fact that we did what was right in the eyes of the Lord rather than form a posse to run them off, or cave to the pressures of liberal humanity."

Paul---by inspiration: "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools; and changed the glory (character) of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things." Romans 1:17ff.
I note here that Paul is not faulting anyone but the individual that chooses to change the character of the God that has revealed himself. We are not at liberty to pussy foot around with those who choose to change the character of the uncorruptible God.
Paul has written: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." The word is "wrath" here, not "love."

"God HAS revealed himself"---not by whispering in the sinner's ear, or by shadowy, subconscious feedback in a moment of  inexplicit, sensual, telepathic hunches.
But God has "revealed from the heavens the creation of the world. That which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has shown it unto them."
Let the Word speak--"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world  CLEARLY seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without EXCUSE."

When men cannot look into the heavens and see the Hand of a Creator---there isn't a hell of a lot I can do for him. "Because that when they KNEW God, they glorified him NOT as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their IMAGINATIONS. Please note where men become VAIN.
J.W. McGarvey writes: "The audacity of the attempt to reason God out of existence has invariably turned the brain of man (Ps. 53:1), and the excess of self-conceit and vanity developed by such an undertaking has uniformly resulted in pitiable folly." (Commentary on Romans).

I have been around barn yard animals all my life. I have found that no matter how I pet and make over them with fidelity and tasty treats today---tomorrow they will revert back to animals.
These "four legged creatures" (I never fool around with feathered fowl) have an excuse--man does NOT.

Paul writes: "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of THEIR own hearts, to dishonor THEIR own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever Amen."

Now, for you pansy preachers with love in your innards the following is "R" rated so you may want to go over to the theological forum and join in with the Kumbaya singers. --But, don't say I didn't tell ya---
"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even THEIR women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the women, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of THEIR  error."

Until men come to the realization that this is SIN in the mind of God-- where man is LOST, you can pray against this sin till your socks fall off, but only in the gospel is there found the "power" to change the mind of men to turn to God. "For it is appointed unto men once to die, but after that the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27). He will judge men by the authority found in His words, written by His apostles (John 17:20; Acts 2:42), not the Presbyterian Church's "Book of Order."

"And even as THEY  did not like to retain God in THEIR  knowledge, God GAVE THEM over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting.
Interesting is it not--
While the Presbyterian Church has decided by a vote of 429 to 175 to hook these reprobates up by a vote. "God has given them over to a reprobate mind."
When God gives up on you---it is not about "hate," it is about "choice." Choice to NOT retain God "in knowledge."
Paul writes: "who knowing the judgment of God, that which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but has pleasure in them that do them."
The sin of sodomy was common among idolaters. Paul inform that when men and women slide to the depth of depravity----"death" was a just punishment for their departure from God.

So, the Presbyterian Church votes to rehabilitate this sin by marriage vows.
Really---you can't make this up-- Think I will go back and pet my old coon dog. I feel sorry for him that he doesn't have a choice---cause he is a great hound, never does he track and tree trash.

Christ took it upon Himself to eat with tax collectors, speak into the lives of prostitutes, and grant forgiveness of their sins, are all of these people whom Christ reached out to more righteous in their sins than the sexual immoral people of this day? Is it your position that we separate ourselves from these kinds?

Alan, I agree.Tyler, you got issues. No one here (I hope) is defending homosexuality, but if you hate that sin that much, then you're hatred for all other sin should be equal, (e.g. - a heterosexual unmarried couple having sex, a person cheating on their tax return, a person listing a lower price on his/her purchase of a vehicle so he can pay less taxes, stealing cable, buying/selling bootleg movies). To elevate homosexuality above other sins is to show one's personal bias. It doesn't reflect God's attitude. Hating homosexuals doesn't bring them to God, it pushes them further away.

Exactly, it is not our purpose to indulge in hatred for a particular sin above others, if we can assist these lost ones in coming to the Lord we have done well while shunning them simply goes against the grain of Christianity.






 

[Tyler]

erm:"Tyler, you got issues. No one here (I hope) is defending homosexuality, but if you hate that sin that much, then you're hatred for all other sin should be equal, (e.g. - a heterosexual unmarried couple having sex, a person cheating on their tax return, a person listing a lower price on his/her purchase of a vehicle so he can pay less taxes, stealing cable, buying/selling bootleg movies). To elevate homosexuality above other sins is to show one's personal bias. It doesn't reflect God's attitude. Hating homosexuals doesn't bring them to God, it pushes them further away."

Get over yourself e.r.m---I was quoting Romans 1
If you have a problem with the text take it up with the author. He "gave up" on them (Romans 1:24). Maybe you would like to apologies for Sodom and Gomorrah?

You do not know me well enough to call me a "hater." I never said the homosexual could not become a Christian. Why, look at all the pedophile priests in the RCC. ...:)

[Mere Nick]

Tyler said

I have put this on the coC forum in thanking God for men like Campbell who blazed the trail in America for Restoration who saw "the writing on the wall."

I doubt the writing on the wall had anything to do with the practice of buggery.

[notreligus]

Shouldn't this thread be in the Presbyterian Forum? 

[LexKnight]

I'm weary about people voting on spiritual stances alone, much less what they're voting for. The fact that they even choose to vote tells me it isn't a church of the Lord, His way ain't up for discussion.

[e.r.m.]

LexKnight,
                  Good point.

[e.r.m.]

Get over yourself e.r.m---I was quoting Romans 1
If you have a problem with the text take it up with the author. He "gave up" on them (Romans 1:24). Maybe you would like to apologies for Sodom and Gomorrah?

You do not know me well enough to call me a "hater." I never said the homosexual could not become a Christian. Why, look at all the pedophile priests in the RCC. ...:)

I call you a hater of the sin of homosexuality, as well you should be, and all of us are (of the sin of homosexuality, not of homosexuals). What I was addressing is that you shouldn't elevate this sin above others. As you quoted ALL ungodliness and righteousness, not just homosexuality. Look at all the other sins Paul mentions in Romans 1
Romans 1:23, 25, 29-31 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. [25] They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator---who is forever praised. Amen. [29] They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, [30] slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; [31] they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.

You were quoting Romans 1, the author of this passage mentions about 15 other sins, so why did you only comment on homosexuality?

It doesn't say God gave up on all who struggle with homosexuality. I know one such brother who denies that temptation, is a very faithful disciple of Jesus, and is married (to a woman) and they have several children.

I never said the homosexual could not become a Christian. Why, look at all the pedophile priests in the RCC.

That's just a snide remark. Are you calling a pedophile as one who has become a christian? Homosexuality and pedophilia are not the same. Homosexual means "same sex". Pedophiles, including RCC pedophiles, molest/rape females as well. They just like kids.

[marc]

At first I wondered why this was on the RM board, but then I remembered that we're all, in the end, breakaway Presbyterians. Still, I have no plans of getting gay married in a Presbyterian church.

[Buster D Body Crab]

I know the scripture in 1 Timothy 4:1 says: Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

It's disconcerting however, to read of a denominational church that takes a vote and decides by majority to turn apostate and actually commit to devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons.

I don't see it as an issue of hate when a congregant rightly decide to insure the security of their soul by leaving heretical fallen houses like the Presbyterian church USA.

[e.r.m.]

I agree with your last sentence.

I don't think they commit to devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons.

I think it's more like
2 Timothy 2:26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Devoting themselves would be more like Satanists.

[Norton]

Shouldn't hating gays and hating gay marriage be two separate issues? I mean, hate for heterosexual polygamous marriage, doesn't always mean hate for heterosexuals.

[e.r.m.]

I agree.

[Buster D Body Crab]

I agree with your last sentence.

I don't think they commit to devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons.

I think it's more like
2 Timothy 2:26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Devoting themselves would be more like Satanists.

Satanists are atheistic hedonists.
Whereas this vote by this now what is entitled to be referred to as a former church congregation, is following the teachings of false spirits and the daemon. The antithesis of righteousness and the teaching of that which is contrary to God and his word.

Furthermore, to respond to another's post because there isn't a multi-quote option available that I can see.

I don't think a Christian can reiterate enough, nor let it slide, when it is implied that our position against gay marriage originates from hate of gay people.
It is not hate that causes the Christian to hold to the scriptures! It is love! It is love of God's word and love for our fellow human beings who, and of course this applies to all sinners and that is why Christians proselytize, are to be removed from God and die without him should they perish in their sins.

Gays are not excluded from that because they have special privilege being sexual sinners. Although it would appear when we read of the chaos that surrounds a public figure who happens to be Christian and affirms the gospel, that we are expected to say just that. That gay's are exempt from being called sexually immoral sinners because we don't wish to be assaulted by the intolerance and bullying that ensues should we uphold the word in the world.

It is a bit like someone who would dare to argue mass murder is to be tolerated because it helps keep down the overpopulation problem on the planet. Absurd of course. However, a mass murderer is compelled to act on their most base animal instincts as corrupt and perverse as it is to want to murder large groups of people.

That behavior is no more tolerated than any other corrupt perverse act. And yet we don't see mass murderer activist groups marching with pride in our streets.

Homosexuality, save in the most hedonistic base culture, like ancient Greece where zoophilia was practiced, has always been condemned as unnatural. And it is.
When the maker of all that exists condemns an act outside of that what he created people to be and practice there's something to it.

But even as an atheist someone could look at the act itself and realize it is not a practice that utilizes the natural orifices for which sexual intercourse and procreation that insures the survival of a species, which is the foundation of all sexual instinct, can occur.

Christians simply hope that homosexuals and all sinners repent so as to find their way to God's grace and salvation in Jesus Christ.

Just because someone says they're gay does not mean Christians have to agree to let them live damned.

[Johnb]

I don't agree with changing the definition of marriage but also think this belongs in the Presbyterian section since it is their decision and really has nothing to do with the CoC.  So  I am moving it there.